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Writing a Book with Catrin Townsend The PriceWriters Podcast Episode 46
30 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of The Price Writers Podcast, Jeremy Keating and Catrin Townsend discuss Catrin’s book, A Risky Business, and the story behind how it came to be written. Catrin shares how the idea for the book emerged during lockdown conversations with her father while on maternity leave — and how those discussions sparked a desire to explain actuarial science and risk in a way that anyone can understand. They explore:
- Why actuarial work is more relevant to everyday life than most people realise - How the book was written (including chapters typed one-handed while holding a baby!)
- The challenge of explaining complex risk concepts without heavy maths
- How Karin structured the book to make actuarial science accessible to non-experts
- The process of pitching a book proposal and securing a publisher
This episode is perfect for actuaries, insurance professionals, students considering the career, or anyone curious about how risk is quantified and managed in society. 📚 Featured book: A Risky Business – An Actuary’s Guide to Quantifying and Managing Risk in Society 🎧 Subscribe for more episodes exploring insurance, risk, and the books shaping the profession.
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Transcript
Introduction to Price Writer Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Price Writer Podcast with Katrin Townsend and me, Jeremy Keating. Join us as we explore and discuss the world of insurance related books, offering our insights and recommendations.
Feature on 'A Risky Business'
00:00:15
Speaker
And today we are talking about A Risky Business, an Actuary's Guide to Quantifying and Managing Risk in Society, which is written by our very own Katrin Townsend.
00:00:28
Speaker
So Katrin, this episode is all about the process of how you came to write your book. So first off, what gave you the idea for writing a book?
Inspiration Behind the Book
00:00:38
Speaker
It was never really on my roadmap to write a book, but during COVID, during lockdowns, I was on maternity leave and my dad, who is widowed, was all by himself as well.
00:00:49
Speaker
And so we'd have these long rambling phone conversations about what I would be doing in the office. If I was at work and our conversations would often also talk about the new cycle. We really set the world to rights. What can be done about social care and, and also things that were very relevant at the time, such as the R rates and the different types of models.
00:01:13
Speaker
that different institutions were coming out with. And I remember at one point I made some comments on the type of model that the university had produced. And I said, well, that's why I think that our rate is actually going to be a little bit higher than the others. And he said, how do you know all of this stuff? And I was like...
00:01:29
Speaker
Because I'm an actuary, all of this, like stochastic models, mortality models, pensions funding, all of this is actuarial science. It was just one of those light bulb moments when you realize that no one else is connecting how your job impacts them.
00:01:46
Speaker
so I just really wanted to write a book that told people that actuarial work is accessible. Yes, of course, you shouldn't have to do all the exams to find out what we do. But equally, I wanted to make it relevant for
Target Audience for the Book
00:01:58
Speaker
people. We actually are incredibly vital in a modern society in terms of pensions, risk transfer, catastrophes and climate change.
00:02:10
Speaker
And I just wanted people to see that. I totally agree with you. It is wonderful to see a book that is about actuarial science that is actually really accessible to lots of people. I know it's a book that you can give to someone, a partner or your family for them to actually understand what we do as acturies.
00:02:29
Speaker
Who would you say is the audience for your book? And did you imagine that person when you were writing it There were kind of two audiences. that There's a lot of overlap between them, but one was my dad.
00:02:44
Speaker
And kind of more generally, I suppose, someone who is educated and interested, but not in this area. So someone who is interested in discussing pensions funding, but doesn't necessarily want all the calculations.
00:03:00
Speaker
Someone who meets up against actuarial work and wants to have detailed discussions about pensions.
Writing Process and Challenges
00:03:08
Speaker
how those things impact their lives, but without all of the really heavy going maths.
00:03:14
Speaker
So whether that's educated lay people or even people you work with, underwriters or other people in your insurance company, again, your work is going to impact them and they probably should understand how.
00:03:27
Speaker
So that was the first group of people. And then the second audience was really me, but about 10 years ago. no I grew up in rural Wales and being an actuary felt so, I didn't even know what it was. and And the idea of becoming an actuary and moving to London felt so far out of my a frame of reference that I just wouldn't even, i wouldn't have believed you if you told me that was going to happen.
00:03:59
Speaker
And even when I was at university, I didn't know what an actuary did. I remember asking my friends, like, why are you all applying for actuarial roles? And i were just like, it's good money and maths-y and stable jobs. So sounds good. Yeah. All right.
00:04:11
Speaker
And I jumped on that bandwagon. But I just really feel like people who are interested in maybe making this their career or people who have chosen to make it their career, but are looking for different parts of actuarial work, like,
00:04:26
Speaker
I was lucky that I started in personal lines reserving, then moved to personalized pricing. Then that got closed down. So I got moved to commercial lines pricing. So in the span of about two years, I actually saw several different aspects of actuarial work.
00:04:41
Speaker
A lot of people don't get that option. A lot of people, their first job is in pensions, then they're going to stay in pensions the rest of their working lives. I just wanted to put out lots of different options because there's lots of different elements to risk and risk quantification. So I just wanted to give people a bit of a buffet of the kind of things that we do for them to then go and explore more if they want to.
Explaining Actuarial Concepts
00:05:03
Speaker
I do think that's a key part of your book is actually showing just the breadth of actuarial work. And it I think that's a key reason why we often struggle to articulate what we do for work because actually it is quite broad and many different actuaries work in actually quite diverse areas. So general insurance and life ass insurance actually are really quite different, which is often sort of surprising, I suppose, to people outside of insurance.
00:05:28
Speaker
So I think many people want to write a book. Like a lot of people think to themselves, I have a book in me. But how did you go about the actual writing part?
00:05:42
Speaker
The very first chapter was recorded by my dad. I didn't realize I was telling him all about, can't remember what it I think it was at Fat Social Care. And he recorded me talking about it and then sent it back to me saying, I think this is that a great outline of a chapter of book.
00:06:00
Speaker
Wow. I'm not saying you should record people without concern, but he was right. it That was the the framework for that section.
00:06:12
Speaker
And I then, I had to tidy that up and put in more information. But that was the first point that I thought, oh, maybe there is a book in this, not just a blog post or a LinkedIn article. The next couple of chapters, if I'm honest, were typed one handed on my old iPad because I was on maternity leave. And so i most of the time I was holding a baby she would asleep and she would never be put down.
00:06:36
Speaker
So the first couple of chapters were written literally one handed, like you're all in this online. apologies for typos. They are all mine. ah The subsequent chapters,
00:06:49
Speaker
but Once I realized, okay, so the chapters I've written so far are about 10 to 12 pages on my Word document. And I have structured them with like little subheadings, just break it up a little bit.
00:07:01
Speaker
And I tend to put a quote at the beginning of a chapter and some learning objectives. And by the time I had that as a skeleton for each chapter, It actually became so easy to write because I knew where I was going and the subheadings were generally like questions or would prompt me onto the next section.
00:07:21
Speaker
So it became, well, how can, you what are the different methods of funding a pension? Oh, well, there, and this is why, how that works. And then the next sub question would be, okay, so how would that relate to social care or what do other countries do? And then so I actually didn't feel like I was writing a book.
00:07:39
Speaker
I felt like I was writing a series of paragraphs, answering a series of questions.
Engaging Writing Techniques
00:07:44
Speaker
and that There was a level of discipline, particularly towards the end. Okay, I need to write 3,000 words a day so hit my deadline. So although the first draft of a chapter kind of spun up very naturally,
00:07:57
Speaker
The second and third drafts actually took as long, if not longer, to just tighten them up and make them really clear, really relevant to people. There was a lot of discipline in there as well. But like I say, it didn't feel like writing a book.
00:08:13
Speaker
That's really wonderful to know because I actually find it a very easy read and despite being a qualified actuary, I'm not necessarily someone who enjoys reading actuarial science books. I mean, well, firstly, there aren't a great deal, but I'll be honest, it I don't tend to get excited about the idea of reading about solvency requirements for an insurance company. I know it's shocking. I know I probably haven't done that since I sat the exams on it, except when I read your book.
00:08:41
Speaker
I find particularly the openings of your chapters are often really engaging. So the particular one on insolvency requirements starts with some anecdotes about how you don't like holding money because it's dirty and it's really engaging. And then you also use an example from The Simpsons about coins as well. And it genuinely opens up a really engaging way to write.
00:09:01
Speaker
I'm often struck by how nicely you've explained things in your book and how crystal clear a lot the sentences are. Are there any sentences that you really agonized over and spend an inordinate amount of time just writing one particular sentence?
00:09:18
Speaker
I remember there being a few of those. I remember it was really towards the end and there was this one paragraph. like Actually now I can't remember which one it was, but I think I spent a whole hour writing, rewriting, changing, just meditating on this one sentence that I'd written and going like, it's not quite what I want to say. It's not quite there. it's It doesn't quite lead me into the next section as much as I want it to And I, yeah, I do remember then there being a few places where I was like, I, I just need to sit with this for a while. Have you since been back over your book and are there sentences and areas that you would think to yourself, Oh, I really wish I could change that. but It's too late now.
00:10:04
Speaker
There are a few places, particularly the typos. Obviously, they would be what I want to change first. There's an example where that my father-in-law picked us and he read this example and he's like, so hang on, you're reversed into a ball, but you said you smashed your headlight.
00:10:19
Speaker
And he was like, don't you mean your taillights? And I was like... Yes, of course. It's almost just like a yeah how I would tell a story, i would tend to use the headlight even for the taillights. I don't know. Maybe that's just me.
00:10:31
Speaker
My advice to anyone is if they spot an error in a book that's already published, don't really mention it to the author unless they happen to say they're doing a second edition. That's the time to be like, oh, actually, I spotted this. But it's just so frustrating if people tell you a it mistake.
00:10:49
Speaker
More than often than not, though, I return and revisit to my own book because I want that information again, which sounds silly because surely if I wrote it down, I know it, but you know, that's not how brains work. But no sometimes someone asks me a question about but the solvency levels, like...
00:11:07
Speaker
I think the minimum capital requirement is 40%. Let me just go check that. I'll just go look it off my book. yeah actually do genuinely use my own book as a reference book, which is slightly narcissistic, maybe.
00:11:19
Speaker
But I've written it in a way that you can... Just go pick up the chapter you want. It's not a book that you have to read beginning to end, sit down
Structuring Concepts and Anecdotes
00:11:29
Speaker
on and finish it all. I wrote it with the idea of being short chapters.
00:11:33
Speaker
And once you've read the first couple, like first three, maybe actually from that point on, you can jump into any other chapter and you're able to follow it on. And that's why I spent so much time on the glossary and on the index so that you can pick it up.
00:11:50
Speaker
and understand the jargon. And I try not to use much jargon, but obviously there is some. And it's all explained. So I try to make it genuinely like a buffet that you can deal with it in any order and if what you're really interested in is reserving then you know jump straight to those chapters or if you just want to learn about supply chains go for it and so that's how I use it if I need to learn about solvency now I won't go up the attic and get all of my actuarial notes and they're like this thick and I've got to find the bit that I'm looking
00:12:23
Speaker
I just look at my own book. but that's It's clearly a nicely well-crafted book and I can understand entirely why you do that. You can find the information that you want in it and things like the glossary are really carefully written. I can't think of an area where you haven't gone to a great deal of effort to make it very, very clear and nicely written.
00:12:43
Speaker
There's quite a few anecdotes in the book, and I like that you've got like little insets and tables and things that bring the information to life. I particularly remember recently, yeah I was telling you what I consider to be a very interesting anecdote about insurance. And you pointed out to me that I'd read it in your book.
00:13:03
Speaker
How did you go about choosing the anecdotes and the insets to go into the book? Some the choices were really difficult, particularly in the fraud section. i had so many fun, exciting fraud examples that was like, oh, I won't fall all these in. I had to be really choosy.
00:13:19
Speaker
Don't you worry though, I've been saving all the other examples in a folder on my laptop. So if there is ever a second edition, you can get all new examples. I really wanted to include those fun things because, you know, sometimes actuarial science, some people find it a little dry.
00:13:36
Speaker
And I wanted to add those in to show that it is relevant and it is fun. And what, you know, it's interesting when you do something that affects society in such a big way on such a deep level, of course, that's going to be interesting. So I wanted to include those things, whether it's the insured value of royal tiaras or insurance fraud that demonstrate how we've got to the stage we've got to.
00:14:05
Speaker
The fact about the abattoirs is in there, you know, that some insurers write more than all of the abattoirs in the UK because abattoir is the first one on the drop-down list. I wanted to just just think include these things because they...
00:14:18
Speaker
They're what make insurance or actuarial science more generally quirky and fun. And honestly, if you were teaching graduate someone new to the industry, that's how you would describe things. You would use these examples. And and over the years, I've explained, for example, frequency and severity to people more times than I can count.
00:14:41
Speaker
So my explanation for frequency and severity in that section was pretty much what I would say if someone asked me examples and all. I always feel like I've explained earned exposure ah like a thousand or more times because it's always a concept that anyone new coming in needs to know or you need to remind people off quite regularly. And it is really nice to find all these things laid out in a clear way to explain in your book.
00:15:07
Speaker
Is there particular chapter that you perhaps found difficult to write? I think the pricing chapter was very difficult. Hopefully not because you felt you needed help on it.
00:15:21
Speaker
I found that really hard actually because I had too much content several times, several times. There was so much I wanted to say that's it became really technical. It became almost too off on a rabbit trail.
00:15:35
Speaker
And that was the one chapter that actually ended up entirely binning. was one of the first chapters I wrote on the iPad with my own hands. And then about six months in, once I'd written a few of the other chapters showing my dad, and he just said, no, start again. This is way too detailed. This is way too mathsy. This is...
00:15:52
Speaker
you know Zoom out and tell me what you need me to know about pricing without necessarily telling me all of the mechanics. And so that chapter actually was genuinely like delete or start again.
00:16:07
Speaker
The other chapters that I found hard to write were at the beginning of the book. And that was because I kept running into this problem where I wanted to explain anti-selection.
00:16:20
Speaker
Oh, but I couldn't because I hadn't explained expected claims costs. Okay. But to explain that, but I haven't explained really what claim is. Okay. Okay. Well, I've got to do that. And now i I just kept running into these...
00:16:35
Speaker
It was like a maze where everything was a dead end. I was like, oh, I can't actually get to where I want to tell you about because there's so much foundational knowledge that you always need to learn all all at the same time before we can even start on the fun stuff. So the book is kind of split into two sections, chapters, I think it's one to 11 maybe and then 12 onwards.
00:16:59
Speaker
12 onwards, it kind of assumes that you understand all those basics. And it's just more interesting use cases, whereas the first half is slightly more the concepts.
00:17:10
Speaker
But those first couple of chapters, I couldn't work out which order. Should I do pooling first, then anti-selection? Should I do claims journey first? Or should I go straight to talking about...
Katrin's Qualifications
00:17:20
Speaker
risk costs and yeah that was really hard i really like chapter two where i talk about a short history of insurance and i really was so pleased when i hit upon that i didn't want to make it a history book obviously but for me finding a structure for all of those foundational concepts And I was able to hang that straight off history. So Italian ship merchants, the San Francisco earthquake, and some of the issues the industry had in the 1980s and 90s.
00:17:53
Speaker
I use that as my structure. So I think the really key thing, if you are thinking of writing a book where you're stuck on a structure is maybe how would you tell us as a story?
00:18:04
Speaker
And then you can always loop. the necessary information into your story. But that was what unlocked that for me. it It is interesting because I did take in how you do give all the concepts and then cover a pretty broad range of use cases, actually. I know there's a chapter on COVID, but you also talk about the the latent risk issues like asbestos and how how we deal with those as actuaries and how complicated that can be.
00:18:36
Speaker
I find it interesting that you you wrote the book relatively soon after qualifying as an actuary. Did you feel any intimidation about being reasonably early in your career to write to write your book?
00:18:51
Speaker
When you write a book, it's really interesting because we use the phrase, he wrote the book on that. And we use that to mean, oh, they're a total expert. And so, yeah, I did feel a lot of apprehension about being like, is it too much of a reach to say I've written the book on actuarial science?
00:19:09
Speaker
And actually... literally have that. I know, right? And this is why it's daunting. But I like to think of it that I've written the book on...
00:19:20
Speaker
An introduction to actuarial science. And actually who's better place to do that than someone who's just qualified. You know, he writing a book for graduates when you're 10 years on from being a graduate is in some ways a lot easier than writing it when you're, you know, maybe a couple of decades in and you've forgotten what it was like, or even that you no longer have to train graduates dayto day to day.
00:19:46
Speaker
It was very much my reality as I was writing this book that i had recently trained graduates. So a lot of it came very naturally. yeah i was enough of an expert for my target audience, but I definitely wouldn't say that um I'm an expert in obviously all matters of actual science. and And that's why I've written the book.
00:20:08
Speaker
There's so many different types of actuarial science, so many different avenues you go down. So it is daunting in a way to say you've written the book on anything, but every book is unique and has a unique twist and a unique perspective.
Securing a Publisher
00:20:22
Speaker
And so being able to clearly articulate why you're the expert on your specific niche is going to help you unblock that feeling of apprehension and why me. And also...
00:20:37
Speaker
if it's not going to you, then who is it going to be? i absolutely, I think that is good advice for young people thinking of writing a book that they should go ahead and do it. So I think you're right about them being the well-faced people to do so as well.
00:20:52
Speaker
Interestingly, I think when you look at your book, it looks very serious and academic and it is very serious and academic, but it's also extremely readable. It's got a really nice narrative to it. So in that way, it is almost a surprise when you start reading it just to find out how accessible it really is.
00:21:09
Speaker
People out there thinking about writing a might be intimidated by actually getting it published because for most people, that's not something they would have any idea how to do. So how did you go about finding a publisher and what was the process? Did you write some of the book first or just an outline?
00:21:27
Speaker
I wrote a proposal that was what the book would be about. I then put a lot of effort, not in writing the book actually. That didn't come until after I secured a publisher because i didn't want to start something and then be like, oh no one wants this information. The thing I did spend a lot of time doing, which I think made my proposal really strong, was I spent a lot of time looking at search engine optimization type information. so How many people each month search for what is an actuary?
00:21:58
Speaker
What do actuaries do? What is actual science? How do I become an actuary? I looked for all of the phrases that I could think ah of that that hit some of those words that my book would answer. And looking at those numbers monthly, but also looking at it globally, like internationally as well, really helped me then when I...
00:22:13
Speaker
came to proposing it to publishers and just email a few people, yeah publishers that I'd heard of. And it really helped me then say, hey, this book doesn't exist anywhere else.
00:22:25
Speaker
There's no other book like this book. And people clearly want to know this information. So being able to put those two things together, I think was what really encouraged the publishers that this is worth pursuing.
00:22:43
Speaker
So your publisher is PowerGrade Macmillan. And I know firsthand, we were at a book related event a few months ago, and you mentioned to people that it was published by PowerGrade
Role of Deadlines and Feedback
00:22:53
Speaker
Macmillan. I remember the reaction of how people were impressed by the very publisher you had for your book.
00:22:59
Speaker
So what was it like that moment that you got the message to say yes? Slightly surreal. It's very weird. Someone saying, yeah, we want to put into print something that you haven't even written yet, just based on an idea that you've had. That was kind of weird.
00:23:16
Speaker
Having a deadline there really helped. Genuinely, and I think that even if you don't have a publisher yet or even if you're not there yet, setting some deadlines for yourself is really important. I set myself the deadline that every month I wanted to complete one chapter with a skeleton of the next. A large part of that was driven by the publisher's deadline.
00:23:36
Speaker
But even so, i would highly recommend that if you're like, oh, one day I'm going to write a book. Or don't want to be like me and be like, you know, just pitch it and then I'll work out the details. Yeah. You know, if you want to get that book written, give yourself a deadline, whether that's a couple of chapters a month or The one thing that I found really encouraging that every single day i was going to write, even if it was just a couple of sentences, I was going to write something down for my book.
00:24:04
Speaker
There's usually lots of like community groups on Facebook. There's a Reddit community. It's nice to have that online support of people also writing. But yeah, finding people who will encourage you with the writing process.
00:24:15
Speaker
but also finding editors as well. And they don't have to be fancy editors. They can be your lovely ones are probably the best. And actually, I was really fortunate that I had my dad's. My husband is kind of a more of an actuarial lens on it.
00:24:30
Speaker
And I also pulled in some other actuarial colleagues, past and present. So thanks to all of those people. But yeah, my dad and the rest of my family, my wider family, my in-laws, my auntie, all reviewed it as the perspective of my target audience.
00:24:44
Speaker
And I was so grateful for that as well. So line up some people and they don't have to read it all. We could just read a couple of chapters or a chapter each. That really helps me zoom out and stop feeling like, oh, this is my perfect chapter. Because they read it and they said, I didn't really understand was.
00:25:03
Speaker
how you get from here to here. Can you explain again? And hidden the conversations that I had with people after they've read it helped me to see what I hadn't done well, even though from my perspective, it was all perfect. It really helped me. So definitely find yourself some support, whether that's anonymous people online who are also writing a book or whether it's so family and friends. Just it has to be people who are willing to be really honest with you.
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
00:25:29
Speaker
And my dad is always that person for me who will read something and go, I don't like this at all. this is not the This is not the chapter for this book.
00:25:39
Speaker
Start again. And so you have to have these honest people. It is good to have honest people around you that that tell you the truth, definitely. Well, it is, as say, a wonderful book and you're quite right, you should be very proud of your achievement in putting it out into the world. It's an excellent resource for non-actuaries, actuaries, people think of going into actuarial science in the wider world to find out all about it. So well done, Catherine.
00:26:05
Speaker
Thank you very much for being with me today. It's been excellent talking to you about the process of writing your book. ah Amazing. Thank you for having me. And next time on the Price Writers Podcast, we'll be talking about the book, Lead Your Team in Your First 100 Days by Niva O'Keefe.
00:26:22
Speaker
We're really excited to learn about this. And particularly if you're starting a new role, come and join us next time.
00:26:39
Speaker
PriceWriters transforms pricing professionals into the most respected leaders in insurance. Find out more about our capability bits by visiting PriceWriters.com.