Transcript
Speaker: You know, kale has like that natural like fibrousness.
Speaker: Welcome to the Price Writer podcast with Katrin Townsend and a me, Jeremy Keating. Join us as we explore and discuss the world of insurance related books, offering our insights, recommendations and crucially how to apply it to an insurance pricing role.
Speaker: Today we're discussing aspiring actuarial leaders, the modern manager's toolkit, which aims to equip you with the necessary skills to manage teams, projects, and your professional development effectively.
Speaker: It was written by our good friend in Sydney, Australia, Julia Lessing. I promise I won't do that accent again, by the way. And this book meets the needs of senior analysts with amazing technical skills who are moving into a managerial position they're just like expected to know how to plan effectively delegate.
Speaker: And the big one for me was always how to review work without redoing it. That step up to management can be really daunting, even for ambitious people who want to progress.
Speaker: Jeremy, how did you feel when you were first given a management role? When I first became a manager, I found it okay. I dove into it and I ran the team quite well and i understood where I fitted and I learned delegation from doing that.
Speaker: But actually when I stepped up to be a head of de department first time, I found it very difficult. And i I will openly admit that I didn't feel I was very good at the job. And it took me about two years to work out how to be, how to be good at running. a department comprised of managers and analysts working for me.
Speaker: I do feel like I would have benefited massively from this book. I think it would have been something I could have worked through well when I was a senior analyst or a junior manager that would really prepared me for those moves up well ahead of time.
Speaker: And i wouldn't have spent two years doing what I felt was not a brilliant job. i would have been ready to move into that head of department role. So we've agreed that there's a real need here for this kind of information.
Speaker: What's in the book? Yeah, so the book is based around that house of great actuarial managers. so it's this excellent infographic that has pillars, foundations and rooms.
Speaker: And they're all the things that you need to do well in order to be a great actuarial manager. It includes, as we mentioned, checking and reviewing work. There's project management, there's stakeholder and team management, thinking strategically, managing your own time.
Speaker: It's really brilliant. And it still manages to teach you that you need to carve out time for your own development as well. I found the book really strong on building integrity and accountability. So there's areas, it's very honest about the fact that things will not always go well. We will not always make the right decisions.
Speaker: And how do we deal with that when things go wrong? How do we actually approach people? We often, as a think is a new manager, it can feel a bit like we are running our team and we're also dealing upwards with the first time with communicating for a team, not just our own responsibilities. And that can be quite difficult. So I think it's very good at teaching us how to do that in a way that maintains our integrity.
Speaker: And the book is ostensibly for actuaries, but I think it applies to everyone in a technical role. So pricing professionals, I would even go as far to say people like data scientists. If your senior analysts are doing a lot of very technical work, this builds out those softer skills.
Speaker: while encouraging them to keep building on the technical skills and just really helps you like manage a team who is technical because I find a lot of managerial books are almost too fluffy. There is a level of technical review that just has to be done. I think a lot of management books are written for career managers and most of us are not career managers. Most of us have spent three to seven years learning maths and statistics.
Speaker: So, and almost none of us have actually done any education really on managing a team or people skills, if we're honest. So our roles change quite a bit in that way.
Speaker: And many of us are not particularly, you know, let's be honest, most of us are not particularly prepared for it by either our education or our experience at work. And this book really does contain a lot.
Speaker: I thought it contained a lot in terms of subjects, but it reads really quickly. i mean, i and I think it took me like two, three days to read the whole book.
Speaker: But what takes the time in this book and where you're really going to get the value out of it is in the exercises and the questions. Similar to your book, Jeremy, I found the same. It's a short little book, but...
Speaker: If you spend the time properly doing the ex exercises and answering those questions for yourself, that's where you're going to really grow. So Julie's book uses this coaching model of learn, apply, reflect.
Speaker: And that really guides you through how to apply this information. So you learn the information. She gives you examples of places you can go and try and use it. And then there's another section where you can think about how you've applied it, whether you're quite happy with that or whether you want to kind of go around the loop again.
Speaker: so you're going to get a lot of value out of this book if you don't just read it kind of perversely for a book. And the case studies are honestly so relatable.
Speaker: It's really clear that Julia has been in this position herself. And this book is not just another managerial book or another soft skills book. This really is tailored to the kind of work that we do.
Speaker: There's loads of content to go and explore. And she's created these awesome some little video case studies. So for example, there's one on how to handle mistakes, for example, there's a little problem section and then you pause it and you give it a and then you watch the rest of it.
Speaker: And this is where you see the relatability because she doesn't just have a section on dealing with mistakes. She has a section on dealing with inherited mistakes, like negative issues in your code or your process. I mean, it just, it's so relatable.
Speaker: I found that a really good example. I remember that one particularly as well. And ah think going back to what I was saying about integrity and things, it can be quite difficult when you, I think,
Speaker: probably most of us have been in a situation where we've inherited something and found errors in it. And it can be quite hard to deal with that, especially when people have been using that process for maybe quite a long time.
Speaker: So how do you sort of walk the line of not being overly critical of the past whilst dealing and fixing ah something now so you don't have mistakes and errors in the future?
Speaker: It can be, i think she does that really well. I found it a really easy read as well. I just, I literally flew through it. And the way Julia writes reminds me actually of how you write Katrin, because it felt like it was Julia explaining things to me in quite a nice and kind way.
Speaker: um So I really related to the way she wrote. Not currently managing a team in a big organisation, I couldn't really try out the exercise myself. But I would, if I was a head of department, again I would very comfortably give this book to and all of my managers and ask them to work through it.
Speaker: And I think you could do that. It could be a really good development opportunity and really structured. Plus, because it's got the tracking and you've got ah various worksheets, you can literally monitor quite well how how people are actually doing and make sure they are following and doing the work.
Speaker: Yeah. I think this is the kind of book as well that you're not going to want to necessarily read and try out all in one go. So there are some sections that, you know, for example, like mistake handling.
Speaker: Yeah, you can read it, but until that situation is actually occurring, you might not have a chance to try out that skill. And the same with dealing with difficult people situations, for example, performance managing people. Yeah.
Speaker: you kind of need the opportunity to try out these skills as well. And they'll naturally come if you're in that, that managerial role. But I definitely think this is a book that you can come back to this book yeah every, I'm going say three to six months easily.
Speaker: And different sections are going to jump out at you and you're going to get value from it time after time. um I thought this was really good. i actually got this book when I was working in an organization with a team and there were couple of sections that I tried out just as I was reading it.
Speaker: It's really lovely to have a book that really speaks to that but that difficult blend of being a manager, being high level, because you kind of have to be high level as a manager. You can't get involved in everything, but also being very technical and really having to do deep dives and having a deep understanding of what your team's doing.
Speaker: So it's, yeah, it's really refreshing to have a book that speaks to both aspects of that managerial experience in insurance. I think it's an important thing to realize we are technical people and we do end up managing in a different way. So if you work in like traditional managerial roles like call centers or sales or even claims, you are not necessarily expected to be able to go through somebody's spreadsheet and check the calculations and make sure it's correct.
Speaker: So it's a different skill set. um And it's sort of a different ownership of what you are delivering at the end of it. I think a lot of managerial books just don't sort of fit in how we operate and how we are as people.
Speaker: ah There was something I really liked in the book and I have had this similar problem. It talks about like when you have a training budget and how do you allocate this resource between your team based on needs but also feeling like you're being fair to everyone also not using up the money early on in case something comes up during the year and these are things that we are not taught and they are not sort of normal everyday things that we have to do so when you first do that as a manager it just it's a surprise that's something you have to do and it is quite difficult
Speaker: Yeah, one of the things I found really difficult as a manager, and that this book talks really candidly about, is how in order to think strategically and and to take on management responsibility, you have to put some things down.
Speaker: Particularly if you've been promoted at your existing company, you're taking that step up from senior analyst to manager within one company, you probably are already responsible for quite a lot all of technical tasks.
Speaker: And as you step up to management, you're going to have to make decisions and say, I can no longer do this task because I can't do everything. hum And that's...
Speaker: a hard conversation, not just with your team who are now going to have to pick up that task, but also with your manager to say, I'm going to have to delegate this or or or this needs to be moved or whatever.
Speaker: So you need to have that conversation about what you're putting down in order to manage the team well. And that's a skill you have to learn really early. in fact, it's probably more important the earlier rod you are, as you've probably got more of that BAU stuff to be holding.
Speaker: ah and because when you're a new manager or you're in a new role, that's the point where you're already... trying to learn how to be a manager so you're definitely not going to have time to do a senior analyst role and a managerial role and have time for your own professional development so I think this is the kind of book as well that even if you're looking to take a step up I would be reading it almost before I would secure the role to prepare it I think
Speaker: ah definitely I definitely relate that. I think would do well to read this as a senior analyst, say, or when you're first beginning to take the lead on things. So not necessarily when you're officially a manager, but actually learning how to lead and that deliver things.
Speaker: I mean, you alluded to something that's difficult that I have a problem with, which is when you check work, If you find errors in it, give it back to people. Don't just fix it yourself.
Speaker: Because it's so, once you get into checking it, it can become so easy to start changing it. And then before you know it, you've redone the work. And that's a mistake because, you know, of course like of course, I can do it in a few minutes because I've been doing it for years.
Speaker: The person doing the work didn't develop at all. if I end up to redoing the work for them. um And it's much harder to communicate back, oh yeah, I fixed X, Y, Z. That's totally not a development opportunity for anyone.
Speaker: So i i I think that's very hard. i think a lot of us struggle with that. Another one you mentioned, i think I'll take further, which is actually saying no to things. So when you're an analyst, particularly when you're only responsible for you, I think we've a tendency to say yes, yes, yes to everything. Look how amazing I am. Aren't I brilliant? And you can get a real reputation as being a big deliverer of things. And people think you're a rising star because you work so hard and you do so much and so on.
Speaker: But I think actually when you start to manage a team, it can be a mistake to keep saying yes, yes, yes to things because sometimes you need say no because it's not you anymore. You need your team to deliver those things.
Speaker: And that is that's work for for you, but it's very different work for you. And the worst thing you can do is say yes, yes, yes to things and end up doing a lot of it yourself. Because again, you're not developing your team.
Speaker: You're not working well with the resources you've got. And likely you're going to end up delivering things badly. and that in the end is more negative than just saying no. Just being honest and saying, look, actually, I've got this number of people. They work this many hours. It's not actually possible for us to do additional work.
Speaker: Yeah, I wish I'd learned to say no more often, much sooner in my career than I but actually did. And so often we learn from the leaders around us though as well.
Speaker: I had one manager who' was really good at saying no and saying no in a nice way. Like you still felt like she wanted to help, but she was like, I agree with the idea, but it's not something we can prioritize now, for example.
Speaker: You know, finding nice ways to say no. It was was a revelation to me um because i I was very worried about if I just say no, am I going to be seen as unhelpful or obstructive or not being a team player or something, but actually finding those this nice ways.
Speaker: to reframe it. And one thing that I used to teach the people in my team as well, because isn't this isn't just a manager problem, right? This happens to analysts as well. If you're an analyst and you've got a reputation for being really good at a certain process in the business, other analysts will come to you with questions from other teams.
Speaker: And there was one point when one of the analysts in my team said, I'm getting all these questions from these external people. I've got to answer their queries. And I was like, okay, well, how about you say that you'll help them? Cause you know, that work does need to be done, but get them to schedule a meeting with you next week.
Speaker: And you'll tell me then. And what that means is that they have a whole week to try and problem solve this themselves for that learning experience, like you said, but if they're still having trouble, then then you can troubleshoot that with them. So Yeah, it's something that I wish that I'd learned sooner and it's something that i'm always really keen to pass on to people.
Speaker: i think it's good. And I think Julia alludes to this in slightly different way, but not to be just a minute person. So where people come to you, it's like, well, it's only going to take a minute, but you end up not doing your own work, but to structure things and when you actually hand over and how you go about that.
Speaker: So often we learn from the leaders around us. When you think back to a wonderful manager that you've had, what was it that made them so great? Yeah, I mean, I've been really fortunate to have multiple great people I've worked for, actually. I can think of one who's a great visionary, someone that really drives things forward and knows knows what they want on the really big picture.
Speaker: I had someone that was a really great mentor who really helped me to develop as a person. and And i remember having someone who was a great manager, a really awesome organizer of things. I've always responded to kind of trust and direction and being engaged with.
Speaker: So ah think those those really are the standout people for me, the kind of wonderful managers and the ones that I've learned different aspects from. i think the leader, the vision, the mentoring, they're all really important pillars of becoming a good manager.
Speaker: So Katrin, what do you feel you've learned from the best managers you've worked for? I've been lucky to have some really good managers as well. One of my earliest managers, I think the one thing that she did that was really good was that she always explained her thought process to me.
Speaker: but She wouldn't just say, right, sit here while I review a spreadsheet for you or I'm just going to review your work. She would say, I'm checking your work and I'm looking for this. And the reason I'm clicking on this is to check X, Y and She was always explaining what she was doing and what she was looking for, which then made it really easy for me to learn not just how to do my work better, but also then as I moved up to a senior analyst and beyond.
Speaker: I was able to use the same techniques on people that I was managing. So that was actually a really good lesson, both managerial lessons and to improve my own technical ability that I was really fortunate to receive early on.
Speaker: The other bit of advice that I got from from one of my early bosses was to always be training your replacements. so yeah And it's really, really worked for him. He's a chief risk officer now. So it's definitely worked for him. and up to and ah but But the reason I think he gave this advice, you know, so many of us want to hold on two pieces of work. We want to feel like, oh, we're the only person who can do this particular skill. We're the only person who has such deep knowledge in this one area.
Speaker: And it's tempting to do that. And it's a good ego boost, isn't it? To feel like you're the only person who can solve your company's problems. But he said, actually, it holds back because it means you will always get stuck with that task and you'll never actually learn more skills or you'll always be stuck as a, as you said earlier, a deliverer rather than a strategic thing because someone who can move out of that role.
Speaker: So that was a really good idea. A little line as well that I like to use. Always be training or replacement. think that's really good advice, actually. I mean, that's excellent advice.
Speaker: So I would say I do really, really recommend this book. Particularly if you're thinking of stepping into management, I would definitely get it. I think people that manage teams would benefit from it too.
Speaker: Although it says actuarial, I really think it's great for pricing roles and data science as well. Katrin, would you recommend it? Yeah, I wholeheartedly recommend this book.
Speaker: It was really good. I think it's so nice as well to have a book that really understands the difficulty of what we do, that we work in a highly regulated industry.
Speaker: We work with things that are technical, but we also have to be able to explain them in a non-technical way. We have both coding to do but also report writing to do and it's so refreshing to have something that really speaks to those challenges and I love how she she weaves through general coaching skills so as well Julia has a real breadth of knowledge at just if you really feel it coming out in this book Yeah, I get that as well. And I know it says it's for actuarial, but i think it's great for pricing or technical roles or even data science.
Speaker: I do think people that work in exactly that background are mathsy, statsy backgrounds. It's really, the word is brilliant say it speaks to me because I really felt it did speak to me in the way that I would work.
Speaker: So if you do want to get the book, it's actually not available on Amazon. You'd need to buy it through X Learning, but I do think it's worthwhile. Do ask your manager if you can put it on the company's expenses. I think every company should have several copies available for people to work through. It is a book that you work through, so it's not one to borrow and just read. I think it's something that you need a copy of that's yours for reasonable amount of time so that you can actually work through it.
Speaker: And if you're a new pricing manager, the fun doesn't stop with Julia's book. Julia did a wonderful masterclass for price writers on handling mistakes a couple of months ago now. But we've got that recorded. Check out that recording on our new platform, Price Writers Pro. That's exciting.
Speaker: And we've also got the Price Writers Time Management for Pricing Professionals module. That's now finished and it's now live. So all 11 videos just on that one topic.
Speaker: So if time management saying no to meetings, we talk about that, emails and dealing with the amount of stuff that's coming in as a manager.
Speaker: If that's your struggle, then do you check out that module. And finally, we want to announce that we have a new manager pathway PriceWriters Pro.
Speaker: These pathways are suggested playlists of PriceWriters video content, that's video lessons and masterclasses. And for new managers, we've got a selection that's really going to help you level up your strategic thinking, your governance, and your time management skills.
Speaker: Plus, we recommend our capability module to help you widen your technical skills It's important to remember that being a manager is not a destination. I think too many of us get into a mindset that we're working towards this being a manager thing. And it's like a destination for everything that we do.
Speaker: And it's not, it's a change in what you do. It's a step along the journey, but it's also the beginning of a new journey and a new phase in how you develop and change and in some ways it's the beginning of opening up into a much wider world so be very siloed on your one piece of analytical work a lot of the time and then move on to another one and then move on to another one being a manager you're suddenly at a different level looking looking across more and as you move up further it's it's again a similar thing happens where you see more and more of the organization and the work that people do
Speaker: I think it's just worth remembering that it's not it's not the final destination. There's more to do. There's always more to build on and learn. Next time, we'll be talking about Holacracy by Brian Robertson.
Speaker: And it's a bit of a U-turn, to be honest, from this book, because it calls itself the revolutionary management system that abolishes hierarchy. So we're moving from how to be a good manager to not being manager at all.
Speaker: Thank you for joining us and we will see you next time.
Speaker: Pricewriters transforms pricing professionals into the most respected leaders in insurance. Find out more about our engaging training, graduate schemes and workshops by visiting pricewriters.com.
