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Rebel Ideas on the Price Writer Podcast Episode 28
9 Plays21 hours ago
In this episode, Jeremy and Catrin explore Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed, reflecting on how its themes of cognitive diversity and constructive challenge apply directly to pricing teams. They unpack the idea that diversity of thought rather than background alone can drive innovation, and they share personal stories of when uniform thinking held back progress.
From project team dynamics to the impact of power structures, they explore why pricing professionals often reach similar solutions, and how broadening input from across disciplines and industries can lead to better outcomes. Catrin draws parallels between literature and analytics, while Jeremy questions whether a lack of differing perspectives has led to stagnation in pricing innovation.
This is an honest and practical conversation about creating space for alternative views, learning from others outside the pricing bubble, and presenting ideas more effectively to diverse audiences.
PriceWriters is a training and education company focused on insurance pricing. Find out more about our engaging training, graduate schemes and workshops, by visiting:
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Transcript
Introduction to the Price Writer Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Again
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome the Price Writer Podcast with Jeremy Keating and me, Katrin Townsend. Join us as we explore and discover the world of insurance-related books, offering our insights, recommendations, and crucially, how you can apply takeaways to your pricing role.
The Role of Diversity in Pricing Teams
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, we are continuing our discussion about creating constructive challenge within pricing teams. And we'll be referencing Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed. Hi, Jeremy.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello, Katrin. So this week, we are looking at Rebel Ideas. So Katrin, do you want to give us an idea of what Rebel Ideas is about? This book is about diversity of thought.
00:00:53
Speaker
which is a really interesting concept actually. We often hear about diversity, but I like how this book zooms in specifically about diversity of thought and explains what that means. So first of all, it goes into what it is and why it's beneficial to organizations.
00:01:10
Speaker
But what I love about this book is that it goes on to say, if you've been in diverse teams before, but you haven't really felt the benefit of the diversity, then here are some common blockers that might stop you feeling that.
00:01:28
Speaker
And it might mean that the constructive discussion or challenge is going to be unintentionally suppressed. So I really appreciate that because if someone is unconvinced by the benefits of diversity, then this book is accessible and it's just really non-judgmental um and really honest.
00:01:51
Speaker
Look out what teams have to do to unlock that potential.
00:01:57
Speaker
it's quite interesting. i mean, I thought it was a really good book, actually. Really, really good. So I really like the way he does talk about how diversity isn't necessarily about what things people always think diversity is about. So actually diversity of ideas and quite simply different ways of thinking, it's different different takes on things, different experiences.
00:02:18
Speaker
And I have found most of the pricing teams, largely people all think the same. and we tend to ahd reinforce the way each other think um and we also tend to get quite extreme in our kind of interviewing practices to really get the most extremely analytical people we can and maybe that is to our detriment so I find just being I'm very analytical just like everyone else but most other people are process focused whereas I'm then people focused
00:02:50
Speaker
And just being that slight difference to everyone else. So I'm the person that doesn't fill in the log for three months. And then I do. And then now I know. And then I'll just write something because I can't even remember what I did, but realized I've not filled it in for three months. so so so I'm that person that doesn't focus on the process. And just being that slightly different to everyone else, I can really feel it.
00:03:10
Speaker
So you can imagine just how much we all work the same. And, you know, maybe sometimes we don't need to fill in a log.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yeah, you definitely hear about people being either people focused, process focused or results focused. I'm definitely process focused. I always feel like if you've got the process, then ah results will follow.
00:03:31
Speaker
The results you deserve will follow if you're following that. So I'm really process focused, but I actually, i think that pricing is full of a lot of people who are results focused and some people who are process focused as well but you're right getting that people people side and is a lot ryerer and one thing that really resonated with me in this book is the idea that not just other people other the views can be ah form of diversity but also
Personal Experiences and Insights
00:04:03
Speaker
other industries and other i information even can be really synergistic
00:04:11
Speaker
And this really resonated with me personally, because about a year ago, started studying literature um just for fun, because I'm a nerd who loves word studies and thematic reviews. I love that kind of stuff. I started doing this and there was this one word that really stuck with me.
00:04:32
Speaker
which is exegesis. And in literature, this means the reading out from the original text of what it meant in that context and then reading it out to your current circumstance. And as soon as I read the definition of that word, I was like, oh yeah, like if you have for GBM and you're trying to explain it and trying to get some actionable insights, that's, oh, it's like exegesis, right?
00:04:55
Speaker
And once I had a word for that, I could be a lot more intentional about it. But just that synergy that I got from studying something totally different. And he picks up in the book about that, um, about sometimes you don't see the value of what you're learning, but you, that you can really get transferable ways of thinking.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah. Um, it just really resonated me. And I think that is I think that's something that we should really encourage, you know, that everyone has different hobbies um and whether it's knitting or literature or football, you know, there's there's a lot that you can draw from your own experience and your out of work life and and bring that to really enhance how you work as a team.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think so as well. I think particularly the lack of the way we think diversity in pricing can often be to our detriment. So I can think of times, I think so many particular examples where people have prepped their presentation, gone and presented them and it has not gone well. Their proposal has not been signed off.
00:06:05
Speaker
And yet they did all the things that you should do. They practiced that presentation. They maybe gave it to the team. We all reviewed it. And then, i mean, this has happened to me more than once. So I can be the example in these things.
00:06:17
Speaker
I practiced it. I've given it to everyone. Everyone said how good it was. I've gone and presented it. It's not gone very well. The place hasn't been signed off. And one of the problems there is that I have presented it to a whole load of people that think exactly like I do. And they've all been like...
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, we really understand it and it's great and brilliant and change this, change that. More numbers here, more explanation here. People who love that. And then I present it to people who don't think like us and it therefore doesn't go well.
00:06:43
Speaker
So I think that a and think that's a particular area where we really do need to go and talk to people other than people that think like we do. And we would very much benefit from getting feedback before we go and present our proposals from people that are similar to the people we're going to be presenting to, not similar to people that are like me and will just agree with me.
00:07:04
Speaker
i mean, we've all come back from a from a presentation and said something like, oh, they didn't listen or they don't know anything about pricing or they weren't thinking rationally, where you're kind of bit annoyed that your proposal's not gone through and you're letting off steam.
00:07:19
Speaker
And really, maybe it comes down to the way we presented.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of business problems, particularly big organizations where the problems are naturally quite complex. that you're not just going to be able to solve all of your problems through one business area. yeah You know, whether that is pricing or call claims or trading, you know, you're not going to be able to solve all of your problems through that one channel, just that one way your team is structured. and So I've seen it, I've seen it done really well.
00:07:56
Speaker
um I've also seen it done as well.
Cross-Discipline Collaboration Benefits
00:07:58
Speaker
um But setting up project teams that are cross-discipline. So you've got some pricing people, some trading people, some claimers people, maybe some um experts in in the broker relationships, for example.
00:08:11
Speaker
And mixing up those skills can be really effective, particularly for generating ideas, new ideas on how to resolve big issues.
00:08:24
Speaker
But then the other benefit is that in future, when there are sudden issues that arise, you then have that cross-discipline network. So you can go to your person in claims and say, it would be really helpful to have this kind of number or ah Can you tell me more about vehicles? or You know, whatever it is. i need You can actually leverage the network where you do need it in future as well as it's solving an immediate problem.
00:08:53
Speaker
So I think that there's ah some really great stuff there to learn. And I think it can feel a little bit like what am I going to get from this? But actually what you're going to get is you're going to get an in entirely different view.
00:09:06
Speaker
And in the book, he uses some really great examples about asking different people to describe a picture of like some fish in a stream and some people describe the photo and they describe all about the fish and they've got so much detail about the fish. And he's like, yeah, that's a really good description. and But you didn't mention anything about that. It looks like a stream. It looks quite green.
00:09:31
Speaker
It's quite a out of focus photo or something. And he said, and different people will bring an entirely new angle. It's not that your view is wrong. It's just that your view is narrow.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting as well. I think one of the things we tend to do, and you're right about talking about going and talking to other people, one of the things we tend to do is we go with a list and we're like, here's the list of things I want to know from this person that works in another area.
00:09:56
Speaker
And I'm going to bombard them with my questions until they told me the things that I want. And I'm going to say, thank you very much and leave. And we forget to listen to people and we forget that they might actually tell us lots of useful things that we don't already know because we come in with our idea of what we want to know about.
00:10:12
Speaker
So I think that's an area that we that we can fall down in. Something I really like is where he talks about the solution space of um i lots of problems. So there's a big solution space to most problems.
00:10:26
Speaker
And i I see this a lot in pricing. So I go around quite often and I say to people, who thinks that innovation in pricing has grown to a halt? Because i say in my book that it has, but the most people don't agree with me.
00:10:41
Speaker
And immediately no one puts their hands up and I'm there saying, i think that. OK, which is fine because I know everyone disagrees with me on it. But the thing is, the solution space to a pricing problem is massive.
00:10:52
Speaker
And all of us think exactly the same. So if I ask 10 pricing people for a solution to a problem, they will basically give me the same answer. So I'm in one little corner of this solution space with 10 solutions.
00:11:06
Speaker
If I asked 10 people that didn't think like me, I'd get 100 for 10 solutions. I'd get 100 solutions and they would be different. Sure, none of them will work, but sooner or later, someone is going to come up with solutions that are not just mathematical modeling.
00:11:22
Speaker
They will be solutions that aren't just how we think. And I think he really gets to the heart of the fact that we're all coming at this with answers that are just the same as each other because we just think in the same way.
00:11:34
Speaker
we've been trained in the same way as well. It's not just that we have a a weird personality. It's that if we all done very similar to courses, we've all been to very similar universities.
00:11:47
Speaker
If you're only learning from your internal team that you work with, then your organization is not getting new viewpoints unless of course they recruit a whole new group of people. But generally within that organization, the information is going to tail off. It's just going to just be passed down, not winning new ideas.
00:12:06
Speaker
But do think there's a real risk there for organizations to be thinking about how are we finding new ideas and how are we encouraging people people who already work here see think differently as well and grow themselves.
Overcoming Authority Challenges
00:12:22
Speaker
I think that's absolutely you're right. And actually, interestingly enough, he talks about the, this thing he calls hippos, which is the highest paid person. And it's the way that they, when they speak, everyone tends to listen to them and then they don't say their own ideas because the highest paid person's given their opinion. and And I don't want to have a different opinion to that.
00:12:47
Speaker
And You know, organisations vary, but some people really don't like to be disagreed with or don't like their other viewpoint. Some people are better, but some people, some people really don't.
00:12:58
Speaker
But just as an analyst, if the highest paid person in the room has given view, it's quite difficult to then have a different view. I saw someone do exactly this recently. They were presenting and they went, I think this blah, blah, blah, but blah.
00:13:16
Speaker
What's your view to the audience? And of course, no one said anything but because it would be different to the presenter's view. And they're all at the front with all of the authority. So how could you possibly then come back with something different?
00:13:30
Speaker
So I think that's a mistake that I've seen made quite often.
00:13:35
Speaker
I 100% agree with you. And I think that feeling is exacerbated when it's not just someone with authority, but it's someone with authority who is your boss as well, yeah and or your boss's boss.
00:13:49
Speaker
And I think that that can also be really difficult. So we have to be really aware of the power structures. i Everyone's got an org chart, haven't they? and And I think mayeson most people, we just use the org chart ah say, oh, who's in that role?
00:14:05
Speaker
Who's taken Sarah's space? Now she's gone. You know, it's that tends to be how we use it. But actually I think what we should be thinking is are the teams within but under that person at how a more diverse it thought are they?
00:14:22
Speaker
And what are the weaknesses of the leader of that team? And is that exacerbated or is it complimented by their team? So if your manager is not very technical, having some really technical seniors is going to be helpful.
00:14:38
Speaker
Vice versa, if you've got a really technical manager. but You might want to try and balance that out a little bit with more product knowledge, which is obviously technically it's way, but product knowledge or soft skills.
Recruiting and Feedback for Diversity
00:14:50
Speaker
Sometimes when we're recruiting, we look for people who will fit the team. And I think to be really careful with what we mean by fit Is it that their face looks the same or that they have very similar interests? Are they going to be really great on the team fiver side, but maybe they're very similar to the people who already have.
00:15:12
Speaker
But actually, if we think of fit being diversity of thought, or are they bringing something new, like you say, to that solution space, then that can be a really interesting way to recruit that will actually help get that diversity benefit that I know some teams struggle with.
00:15:36
Speaker
ah tell a mistake I've made in the past. So we used to ask questions to people about estimating things. So it's like estimate the number of cars in the UK, things like that.
00:15:46
Speaker
And we we somehow all fell into a habit of insisting that people give an answer to this and being like, no, no, we need you to show that you're confident and you give an answer to this. Like whatever it is, we don't mind.
00:15:59
Speaker
I've come to realize like 10 years on that that is a really bad way to interview someone. What i don't want in my team is someone that's just going to confidently be like, yeah, I think it's 30 million.
00:16:12
Speaker
that's actually not That's actually not a very useful skill. What you want is someone that's going to be like, no, I'm going to research this and this and this and work it out in this way.
00:16:23
Speaker
And um I mean, like I say, most people are process driven, but you see what mean? Someone who actually thinks about how they're going to get to the answer rather than just confidently giving me something that's probably wrong. And who can say where they're going to research the information they need from. So if they say, well, what I really need to understand is um the number of car manufacturers in the UK, where do I get a reliable source of that information from? That in itself would be a really good ah good interview answer. I would say even if they don't give you an overall final, the answer is, you know, however many million.
00:17:04
Speaker
Or even maybe a formula, maybe maybe be open to accepting a formula. It would be 10 times X where X is O and so and so times N, you know, something like that, because I think that still demonstrates their logical thinking.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's... But it also demonstrates they're not going bullshit you. Yeah, exactly. I think something I took away from this book, and it it it does reinforce something I often suggest doing, it's actually getting outsider reviews of the work we do in pricing.
00:17:37
Speaker
So getting someone who knows pricing, they do know what they're doing. So there is an element that they're going to think the same of us there. But the point is they don't report to the head of pricing.
00:17:48
Speaker
So they are someone that can come in has the authority to ask us questions, have the knowledge to correctly assess what we're doing. That isn't going to be swayed by the highest paid person in the room.
00:18:00
Speaker
So I think that can actually have a really big impact on the quality of the work that we do. Yeah, one thing that I took away from this was actually how much do we...
00:18:13
Speaker
implicitly ask people to conform and how much do we really welcome them when they don't? If people do challenge us on answers or in presentations or whatever proposal we're making,
00:18:27
Speaker
Are we giving off subtle or unsubtle hints that we actually don't want them to say bad things? And um I think particularly in sign-off meetings, if your sign-off meeting is going to be, I'll take it to sign-off meeting, it's after lunch, so no one's going to listen and it will just go through automatically, then either it would kind of suggests to me that either there's not enough diversity of thought or it's not a very effective governance meeting.
00:18:59
Speaker
And that's not to say that constructive criticism or challenge has to be an absolute drama fest, you know, and delay everything.
00:19:10
Speaker
But i I guess it's just, if you ask people to review some work, well, firstly, do you ask people to review some work? And when you do, Do you give them areas that you don't think go that well?
00:19:24
Speaker
um You know, say for example, if your weakness is coding or you you use a new tool that you haven't had much experience with, telling them about that can really help them make their review very useful, not just to you, but also gives them a bit more encouragement that you can withstand the more challenge in that area.
00:19:48
Speaker
And I think that people really respond well to that. It's quite different to hearing, can you review this and give me some feedback? to can you review this please because I'd love some feedback on my coding in this in this section of code because I wasn't quite sure about this you know that you're going to get a much more open and honest challenge Yeah, I think that's right, actually.
00:20:14
Speaker
and think something many of us have is the desire to be the most intelligent as well. It's pretty common sort of weakness, I guess, among people that work in pricing teams.
00:20:25
Speaker
And that can be nicely competitive in our own teams. And it can result in us getting quite good challenge. But sometimes it can be a bit off-putting when we present. And i do I do think that's something that many of us are liking. It might be that would be an area where I'd be nice to bring out some more diversity in quite a simple way, just not having people that are so competitive.
00:20:48
Speaker
But it's not surprising we like that because they are competitive jobs. They are jobs that everyone wants. It's really quite hard work to do a degree and master's and so on. So we naturally self-select the very particular types of people.
00:21:02
Speaker
Which, you know, I'll hold my hand up. I am exactly that sort of person. and It's taken me a long time to, yeah, exactly, to learn ways of behaving better. So on the whole, Katrin, what do we think of this book?
00:21:16
Speaker
I really liked it. I've always been sceptical when books go straight to comparing it to something that's a very dramatic event, like
Applying Diversity with Rebel Ideas
00:21:25
Speaker
9-11. It feels, you know, are you trying unpurposely shocking?
00:21:31
Speaker
But actually he used that example really effectively. I was pleasantly surprised at how carefully it was treated and how really he developed it. So it wasn't just...
00:21:47
Speaker
sensationalist it was actually a really good example so I was initially skeptical but I read it in about two days I really enjoyed I did think it was really easy to read and I think if you are the kind of person either isn't either isn't quite sold on the value of diversity because you've never actually felt the benefits yourself you know and there were loads studies out there aren't there you always see them saying how diverse teams do better and diverse companies do better but if you've been in that situation yourself when you've been in a diverse team but you're just like it wasn't any different
00:22:23
Speaker
then I think this book is really going to help you see what work the team needs to leverage that diversity. And I think it's really non-judgmental and really accessible and really easy to read. So 100% recommend if you're in that space if you are ever in meetings where you are the highest paid person.
00:22:47
Speaker
Because I think this idea of the highest paid person's opinion, the hippo, it's just so... It's so true. And so if you're ever in that situation, even if, um you know, even if you're an analyst or senior analyst, who often has meetings with other people, either peers or people underneath you,
00:23:10
Speaker
then you know, you will also get lots out of this book. You know, obviously if if you're the ah CEO or something, you are probably the hippo most of the time. So please do read this book for the sake everyone in your team.
00:23:23
Speaker
So I think that I'd really recommend it to to a lot of people. Yeah, I thoroughly agree. i thought it was a really good read. And, you know, it's not just in meetings. I've observed just in conversations at conferences and things where the conversation is dragged into the opinion of that highest paid person. So if you're with someone senior and they say X, people people immediately take the conversation in their direction.
00:23:49
Speaker
So I thought it was a lovely written book, actually. I like the way that it's based on sort of long or short kind of anecdotes that really bring home what he's saying.
00:24:00
Speaker
There's plenty of actions and tips and things you can actually use in the real world. i I guess I agree with you, I suppose, with the 9-11, because it's right at the
Historical Examples of Diverse Teams
00:24:09
Speaker
start of the book. And it is it is quite suddenly like, oh, OK, this is quite a heavy topic to open with.
00:24:15
Speaker
But it works really well. He does explain why there were the lack of diversity of thought, and particularly the CIA, was very negative to their ability to handle that. My favourite one was probably Bletchley Park area, actually, because thinking about the...
00:24:31
Speaker
just really wide array of people that worked at Bletchley Park, not just in terms of their abilities, but I mean, there were people that were language experts, obviously mathematicians, and scientists, electricians, there was electrical um engineers, there just a huge range different people.
00:24:48
Speaker
people academically. There was also a huge range of people socially because it was the war and therefore it wasn't just something that was always the exact same type of person.
00:25:00
Speaker
And there are plenty of people with differences socially and not something that I suppose was talked about very much the time, but of course, um and Alan Turing was homosexual, there were many women working in the department as well.
00:25:11
Speaker
They actually recruited lots of people using various quizzes and crosswords and things to get a real diverse set of people. There was all ages as well because so many of the young men were off fighting at war.
00:25:26
Speaker
So yeah, I just thought it was really great book. I really enjoyed it. I thoroughly recommend it. mean, for me, as a written book, I'd give it five out five, but I would also, say as a book for pricing people to read, I'd still give it five out five.
00:25:39
Speaker
Yeah, i think there are loads of practical tips in this book, whether it's write your ideas on a post-it note in meetings. So get everyone to write their ideas on a post-it note before they discuss. This helps give people a bit more of a further view of their own view before they get swayed by the hippo.
00:25:54
Speaker
Whether it is about recruitment or... project work, you know, you're trying to create cover as much of that solution space as possible. And yeah, I really liked the tip and the acknowledgement about whatever learning interests you or whatever hobbies interest you, there are going to be transferable ideas and skills. And I, yeah, I love that.
00:26:17
Speaker
i think not I think that's a really big encouragement, right? um As well. It's not just, oh, you have to be doing coding outside of your job 24 seven. Any hobby that you already have or already interests you and can bring a different perspective on your pricing work.
00:26:36
Speaker
What's the summary of the book? What do you think? Summary of
Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser
00:26:40
Speaker
the book? Oh, that's a good question. So I would say the summary of my book is really to listen. I've got a thing about listening, actively listening. So don't just take away that people are disagreeing with you. Listen to them. They think differently to you. They probably have valid points.
00:26:58
Speaker
I mean, you know, weigh up whether you think it's a good idea or not. i mean, he talks about the football committee. So when Gareth Southgate came in to run ah the England football team, he set up a very diverse set of people from backgrounds in, just pretty much outside of football. you're Interesting, a lot of them were still sports related, but he got a lot of stick from people complaining that he was talking to people that weren't football related.
00:27:23
Speaker
The actual author of the book, I think he was on one of these committees, and that's how he started to get the idea for the book. And in fact, he says that they did come up with lots of bad ideas.
00:27:34
Speaker
You know, nine out of ten things they came up with were bad. But the things they came up that were good were very good. And a committee made of just people from a football background would never have thought about of these other things.
00:27:48
Speaker
And it did work well. It did advance them forward. So I think that's my big takeaway. It's about listening to people who don't think the same as me. Yeah. And maybe you don't follow hippos.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's fair as well, actually. Yeah, don't just listen to the highest paid person in the room. And if you are the highest paid person in the room, don't give your opinion first. We'll be back next time talking about why insurance markets fail and what to do about it.
00:28:16
Speaker
Thanks for joining us and see you next time.
00:28:34
Speaker
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