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Episode 102: How to Handle Feedback and Criticism
179 Plays4 years ago
Anna Wright of Anna Kay Photography joins me on the podcast today to discuss growing from the no’s: how to learn from feedback and criticism. And as a background as an officer in the Air Force and a nurse, she knows a thing or two about dealing with stressful situations and accepting feedback.
As I've suggested in past episodes, I think the topic of feedback and criticism is important. There's so many situations in business, especially early on, where accepting feedback or criticism from the wrong people can really negatively alter the course of a business. And on the other hand, not learning to deal with criticism and accept feedback can prevent one from growing. We cover many of these talking points and more in this episode!
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-anna-wright-episode-102/
Recommended
Transcript
The Courage to Invest in Oneself
00:00:05
Speaker
If you believe in yourself, you have to spend the money sometimes. And it is scary to invest in yourself, because that means you can't blame the failure on anybody else. So it's super glad I made that investment. I would encourage people to really take those mentorships, masterminds seriously, and invest in them.
Empowering Creative Businesses
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands That Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
Anna Wright: Background and Feedback
00:00:37
Speaker
Anna Wright of Anna Kay Photography joins me on the podcast today to discuss growing from the nose, how to learn from feedback and criticism and as a background as an officer in the Air Force and a nurse. So she knows a thing or two about dealing with stressful situations and accepting feedback.
00:00:55
Speaker
As I've suggested in past episodes, I think the topic of feedback and criticism is important. There are so many situations in business, especially early on, where accepting feedback or criticism from the wrong people can really negatively alter the course of a business. And on the other hand, not learning to deal with criticism and accept feedback can prevent one from growing. We cover many of these talking points and more in this episode.
The Role of Feedback in Business Growth
00:01:18
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at DaveyandChrista.com for the resources we mentioned during the episode. And I want to hear from you. Let me know what kind of content you'd like to see on the Brands at Book podcast, especially as we tackle our next 100 episodes. To leave your feedback, just send us a DM on Instagram at DaveyandChrista. Now, on to the episode.
00:01:43
Speaker
All right, welcome to another episode of the Brands That Book Podcast. I'm here with Anna Wright of Anna Kay Photography, a photographer down in San Antonio, Texas, relatively new to San Antonio, Texas. Or I guess you've planted roots there. Yes, we are going to be Texans now. So we're super excited about it.
00:02:03
Speaker
Awesome. Great state of Texas. And I'm excited to chat with you today because this is a topic that I think is so important, especially I think regardless of where you're at in business, but I think especially when you're first getting started. So what we're tackling here today is growing from the nose, responding to criticism, dealing with quite simply people telling you no, right? And I think that
00:02:25
Speaker
It's such an important topic because I think through just the stories that I hear from people on this podcast who are talking about their businesses and there's always a time in business where I feel like things could go either way, especially early on, alright? Maybe more so early on than after you've been established for a few years.
00:02:43
Speaker
where it's encouragement from a friend or wisdom from a fellow business owner that really propels somebody on a given path. You just kind of think sometimes like it could easily go on the other way. Maybe somebody comes along and I don't know gives you criticism that's not helpful and you quit. When I certainly think back to different moments especially as Krista was getting started with her photography business and just early on in our businesses where
00:03:07
Speaker
Maybe things play out just a little bit differently and we don't get to where we are today. I think this topic is so important just in discerning who you accept criticism from, how to respond to those things. And I think you're the perfect guest to talk to because of your background. Thank you. I'm going to let you get into that, but former Air Force officer and a nurse, right? But you worked in what specifically within nursing?
00:03:34
Speaker
So within the nursing world, I worked on surgical floors, specializing in like step down cardiac surgeries, stroke patients. And then I also did a lot of education for new moms, like lactation consulting, birthing process. So kind of interesting sides. And then I also managed a family practice clinic. So I was having to give criticism.
00:03:59
Speaker
receive a lot of criticism as I was trying to navigate that. But yeah, I did a lot with the nursing career and it was great. It taught me a lot. Yeah, I assume that regardless of where you are in the nursing world that you probably deal with a fair amount of stress but cardiac surgery and certainly those are all pretty stressful situations let alone of course being an officer in the Air Force. So I feel like well qualified to chat with us about accepting criticism and growing from the nose.
Pandemic Challenges and Business Sustainability
00:04:28
Speaker
One of the things that we're doing since episode 100, we actually released episode 100 yesterday. This episode will be going live a little bit after obviously, but we are doing sort of a mailbag segment and one of the questions I think really stood out to me and I'd love to get your input on it before we sort of jump into the topic for today and that has to do with
00:04:49
Speaker
the pandemic and just the current season that people find themselves in, certainly across the world, certainly here in the United States. And I don't know what your experience has been, but for me, as shutdowns happened, I think mentally I thought to myself that this season was going to be maybe a little shorter than it has been. Or maybe at least, maybe it's not that I thought it would be short-lived, but that I went into sprint mode, I guess, once the shutdowns happened.
00:05:16
Speaker
And I feel like maybe a lot of people did. We were releasing a ton of content. We were just kicking a lot of different things into gear. And probably not surprisingly, found myself a little burnt out going into let's say June, realizing that this, yeah, this is gonna be maybe a little bit longer of a season than I anticipated. Or I just at least didn't treat it how I ought to have.
00:05:38
Speaker
So especially as people are dealing with like second waves of lockdowns and of course it's different across the country. But the question really is what can I be working on in my business right now especially as maybe I can't work to the capacity that I typically can in the summer. Do you have any thoughts on that? So many thoughts on this pandemic. I went into pandemic time
00:06:03
Speaker
My husband had been deployed, so he was overseas in Pakistan from October through April. And I was juggling my three kiddos and running my business. And then in January, I had started a mastermind with Vanessa Hicks, who I know you know her really well too. And so I feel really lucky that we were in a place in the pandemic where we were already digging into our business, finding things to work on.
00:06:31
Speaker
Once everything kind of came to like a screeching halt, we were still riding this high of like blogging two to three times a week, repurposing content, digging into the systems, showing up on social media every day when it was hard to know what to say. Do you take a lighthearted tone or does everything have to be serious? Does every post have to say in light of current situations, blah, blah, blah? And I think what we found was no,
00:07:00
Speaker
It didn't all need to be centered around coronavirus. People weren't coming to us to be experts on coronavirus. Talking about things that we wanted to promote in our business, talking about how we make people feel, the things that were changing to work within the coronavirus realm, I think
00:07:18
Speaker
a lot of people and I was one of them, I was blogging three times a week for the whole beginning and I haven't blogged in like three weeks now. So it's easy to kind of get ahead and then you get burned out. But the reality is that the people who keep showing up every day, who keep finding processes to tweak, who keep reaching out to the planners and other photographers even, what do you need? How are you handling this? The people that keep pouring in or the people that are going to still be here when this is
00:07:46
Speaker
all back to normal, whatever that looks like. So I would just encourage everybody to just pick one thing. Maybe it's for the week, maybe you can't devote as much attention to it. I know we're juggling three kids at home and both working from home, but even just a couple DMs to your favorite planner. Hey, do you want to meet for a headshot? We can socially distance. And just those little things to keep your business relevant and keep you at the front of people's minds. Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:16
Speaker
maybe overwhelming to some people to think, okay, I have to keep on showing up every single day. And I think probably what you mean, and certainly what I found out is that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be grinding 24 hours a day every single day. But I 100% agree. And I think talking to a good friend of mine towards the beginning of the pandemic, he said, hey, what are you doing in your business that you're going to be glad you did six months from now?
00:08:42
Speaker
It really helped reframe how I was thinking about this season and like, hey, things aren't coming to a stop. I think I found on the other side of things that doesn't mean that maybe similar to what you were doing that I have to blog three times a week or whatever. It's okay maybe to take a little bit of time off and find rest in there. I've been working on a post that reflects a little bit on that, but I do. I think that's wise advice. Would you say that being in a mastermind during that
00:09:09
Speaker
season especially the initial season because this pandemic season is still happening. Did you find that helpful? It was insanely helpful especially with my husband gone and I really needed support. I can't even count how many times I cried on our Zoom calls because I didn't know when my husband was going to get to come home. I didn't know if my kids were ever going to go back to school and
00:09:32
Speaker
Spoiler alert, they never did. So hopefully in a few weeks they will. But just having that core group and whether you find it through a mastermind or your rising tide or whatever, but having that core group of business owners that you can just let it all out with and kind of get through these seasons. Because if it's not a pandemic, we're all going to have seasons of hardship that we still need those people.
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's so true just finding and maybe one of the most difficult aspects of the season is the lack of in-person community, you know, and so being in a tight community where people really truly understand your business. I could see that being immensely helpful during the season, but also
00:10:16
Speaker
It's sort of scary as well because I'm sure the mastermind with Vanessa and we've had Vanessa on the podcast.
The Importance of Personal Growth Investments
00:10:22
Speaker
It was an awesome episode for anybody listening. You should go back and check out that episode. But I'm sure there was an investment involved in that mastermind. And so going into that in a season of unknown, I think could be a little scary. Yeah. I can't remember where I heard this quote and it's so cliche, but it's like scared money doesn't make money or something.
00:10:45
Speaker
But it's so true. Like if you believe in yourself, you have to spend the money sometimes. And it is scary to invest in yourself because that means you can't blame the failure on anybody else. So it's super glad I made that investment. I would encourage people to really take those mentorships mastermind seriously and invest in them. Yeah. Well, I just want to tell you that's my new favorite quote. All right, so I'm going to be I'm probably going to be using that quote as you know, Chris is like criticizing my spending. I'm like scared money doesn't make money.
00:11:14
Speaker
And we could go off on a tangent on that just because I think there is a lot to talk about there, especially when it comes to investing in yourself and the importance of doing so. And I think that we're probably pretty quick to get up on the pedestal and talk about why our clients should invest in our services even though they might be luxury level prices or whatever.
00:11:33
Speaker
but then we take that same mentality when we look at the things that we're investing in, whether it be with different hiring a website designer, hiring a coach, whatever it might be.
Transitioning from Nursing to Photography
00:11:43
Speaker
I'm going to not let us go down that rabbit hole because that could be a whole episode on its own and I think we have some important content to jump into. Real quick, segueing back to
00:11:53
Speaker
you and getting started in photography. What did that look like coming out of the Air Force and as a nurse or did that happen sort of all at the same time? Tell us a little bit about how you got started. Yeah, so I've always loved photography but it definitely wasn't one of those magical stories where I've just always had a camera in my hand and then all of a sudden had this business. I've also always been a consumer of photography
00:12:20
Speaker
And I think that also kind of helped me grow my business just because I was happy to pay good money for great photos and I had really high expectations of what I wanted from my photographers and I wanted to be that good. But no, out of high school, I joined the army, which was, I don't know, a different time in life. Sure. I went to the army so that I could pay for college, came home in the reserves and started nursing school.
00:12:50
Speaker
And during college I did ROTC. So as soon as I graduated college, I became an Air Force nurse and officer. That took us to Mississippi. My husband and I was our first station, first kid, got a nice camera. Couldn't understand why the backgrounds weren't blurry like I wanted it to be. I think that was the actual technical term I said, like, why is it not blurry in the background? And just shot it on auto and didn't know what I was doing.
00:13:18
Speaker
And from Mississippi, we moved to Japan for three years, which was an incredible experience. And I took my camera everywhere, but again, didn't know how to use it. After Japan, we moved to Texas and I had gotten out of the Air Force. So I was working as a nurse at like a civilian hospital in San Antonio. We found ourselves blessed and surprised with baby number three on the way.
00:13:43
Speaker
And I was still working crazy shifts. You know, a nursing day is supposed to be 12 hours, but they're typically 14 and just really burnt out from nursing. I guess I was seven months pregnant with baby number three. And my husband had gone to a leadership conference with the military and I had been looking at going back to getting my master's to become a nurse practitioner and
00:14:08
Speaker
just trying to figure out how he would juggle school and the investment and all the things. And I'll never forget it because we were doing bath time with the kids and he said, what if you just didn't get your masters? And I had always said like, no, I will have my masters. You know, that is so important to me by the time I'm 30, whatever. And he said, but what if you could just do what you loved? What would it be? And I said, well, I would just be a photographer.
00:14:34
Speaker
And he said, well, why don't you just knock at your masters? Let's not spend $80,000 on a masters. Why don't you invest some money in photography and just do this photography thing? And at that point there was no photography thing. I had a tiny, you know, little Nikon starter DSLR. I had a 35 millimeter lens, the cheapy one that I knew if I lowered the aperture, I could get that blur that I wanted. I have no idea what I was doing.
00:15:01
Speaker
But he said, you know, like, this isn't making you happy. This schedule is not good for our family. So just try. Like, it can't get any worse. And so I did. I took my son out and took some pictures of him at a park and posted it on our local Facebook group and said, Hey, I'm starting and I'm doing $50 mini sessions. Does anybody want to come out? And I was just inundated with people asking, Oh, when can I come? When can I come? And
00:15:31
Speaker
That's just kind of how it started. That was the fall of 2017. And I spent those first couple months really pregnant and working full time and then doing $50 shoots on my days off.
00:15:45
Speaker
I can see why you and Vanessa or maybe why you were attracted to Vanessa's mastermind. I feel like some similarities in your stories with Vanessa as well, you know, her husband being the one and also a military family, right? Saying, hey, you know, what would you do, you know? So moving into the beginning days of photography, it must have been encouraging to see people saying, hey, yeah, when can I come out? And doing these $50 mini sessions.
00:16:12
Speaker
But at some point, you probably realize, okay, I'd have to do a lot of $50 mini sessions to replace my income. So what did that transition look like? How did it look kind of growing your business from there? And what kind of obstacles did you face? Yeah, so being super pregnant, that was one obstacle.
00:16:33
Speaker
You know, I was tired. It was hard to kind of keep up with the editing and it was a lot of late nights. And then we were moving into winter, which is typically kind of an off season. In my mind at the beginning, all I really needed to do was make $1,500 a month. That was my goal. And that is a lot of $50 sessions. So one of my good friends and kind of early mentors here in San Antonio,
00:17:01
Speaker
She was the one Emily who got me started on, listen, if you're going to be taking money from people, we've got to figure out a basic contract for you. You've got to have something set up a payment system. Like you can't work for free. You have to charge at least a little
Handling Criticism in Photography
00:17:15
Speaker
bit. And she was the one that really got me. I would say headed in the right direction. You know, I was using Dubsado by my six month mark in business. And so really from the beginning on that part, everything was organized.
00:17:30
Speaker
My biggest struggle that I had was again with this rejection thing. It was really easy for me in my professional career to take criticism, but apply it to the processes. But then as the photographer, I became the process. So humbling myself and learning how to, you know, maybe not take things so personally or take them with a grain of salt, but still work through them.
00:17:57
Speaker
That was one of the biggest obstacles. And then also just the imposter syndrome of seeing all these amazing photographers and thinking, gosh, I'm never gonna be like them, or what do they have that I don't? And so that whole comparison game, those were my biggest struggles at the beginning.
00:18:16
Speaker
And so especially when it comes to maybe working through, I think it's so interesting what you said about being able to take the criticism in your other careers that you had and apply them to the system. And that system not necessarily being personified in you, you didn't necessarily have your heart over those systems, right? So it's just a matter of like,
00:18:36
Speaker
Hey, okay, yeah, we'll fix this or we'll make improvements or whatever. Whereas when it came to photography, all of a sudden, maybe this art was a little bit more over your heart than what you found in previous careers. What was your process in taking that criticism and letting it maybe, you know, for lack of a better way to put it fuel you towards growth and change versus just shutting you down or just shutting out completely not growing at all. In regards to clients specifically, because I think there's the
00:19:05
Speaker
Constructive criticism from peers, but if we're talking specifically about client rejection The first thing that I really found myself doing and this is like my mission and what I want to like tell people about is To start you have to take other people's boundaries and apply it to that. No first so one thing and you'll see it like on every big photographer's page or
00:19:32
Speaker
You have to have boundaries. Set your office hours. Don't work for this. Don't work for that. And we're so caught up in our boundaries, but clients have boundaries too.
00:19:43
Speaker
I had a great client hire me for $50 and she loved her photos and I am like mortified of them now, but she loved them at $50 and that's her budget for photos. She's never going to book with me now that I'm $400 because her boundary is that is what she can spend on pictures. We've talked about it a lot with wedding photography.
00:20:06
Speaker
there were a lot of nos that I got at the beginning because I had never shot a wedding before. And those clients boundaries were that they were only going to hire someone who had shot a wedding before. And so I think when you can start looking at things from your client's perspective, instead of just, Oh, well, you know, I suck and they didn't book me. No, they inquired with you for one. So they obviously liked something. People don't ask if they don't like anything.
00:20:33
Speaker
but you can't always meet all of their boundaries and expectations. So I like to run it through that first.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's super helpful. Again, I'm just all sorts of little tangents we can go down. And I love that concept of looking at other people's boundaries. One of the things that I feel like I often see maybe in Facebook groups or different posts or, you know, oh, there's so many new photographers out there that are just like, undercutting everybody else in price. And it's like, no, not really, you know, because there's people out there. And I think me and Kristin, when we got married, we got married, we were still in college, we had zero budget, we had zero dollars, you know, to spend on
00:21:07
Speaker
It was a very small wedding. We didn't have all that many professional vendors. It's not that we didn't value good food or great photography or whatever. It's just that we had zero dollars. Us bringing in whoever we brought in had nothing to do with so and so gave us a great price and otherwise we would have went with the
00:21:27
Speaker
the $4,500 photographer or whatever, it was no, we had $0. So I think that I often want to say like, hey, it's probably not that. Like if you think that's what's holding you back, you should do a little more soul searching because it's probably not. Again, there's just so much there. I think that's so wise looking at other people's boundaries. So what's next?
Understanding Client Rejections
00:21:44
Speaker
So after you've looked at their boundaries and when you're starting out, this is a little harder because you might not know who your ideal client is yet. So it takes a little bit of nuancing to figure out like, is this a no that I need to dig into? Is this one that matters to me? Is this one that should have been a yes? But after you've kind of run through those boundaries, if it's your ideal client that you think has told you no, that's when I think it's time for some investigation.
00:22:13
Speaker
Why didn't they book you? Did they? And I know we all do it. Everybody looks at those people on social media. So you know if one of your friends booked with them and they cost more than you or they cost a little bit less or whatever, you can see a lot of these couples where they end up. And so if it's a repeated thing happening, you're not booking the people that you want to work with.
00:22:38
Speaker
Well, are you putting in the hard work? Are you showing up? Are you explaining your services? Are you hopping on the phone or are you waiting? Are you letting that inquiry sit there for two days before you answer? There's so many things that have nothing to do with your photography and your art that could be causing those no's. I just think you have to run them through. Did I do this right? Did I do this right? Did I do this right?
00:23:06
Speaker
Is it a habit that's starting in my business or is this a fluke thing? Maybe we weren't meant to be. But when you run it through kind of like the scientific process almost of if this then that and then this and whatnot, it takes that personal sting out of it.
00:23:23
Speaker
And I will say that's not to say that I don't ever feel that sting. There's definitely been couples, you know, that didn't book with me. And I'm like, gosh, you know, I really wanted that. It should have been mine, but I know I did everything to the best of my ability. And then if they still don't book with me, then that means we really weren't the right fit. And I can move on without being stuck in this place of wallowing or wondering.
00:23:46
Speaker
Sure. And I think one of the things that really helps with that is tracking your inquiries. You already mentioned that you used Upsado. So I know there's some built-in options for doing that. But even if you don't use something like Upsado, having a spreadsheet where you can track inquiries coming in and then kind of to the extent that their process takes them. So for instance, making marks like
00:24:05
Speaker
you sent this person pricing and you never heard back or you actually got on a call with this person and then they dropped off or all the way to booking and so on and you can start maybe seeing patterns. You're starting to send pricing out to people and you never hear back after you send pricing out to people. Well, it doesn't sound like you have an inquiry problem.
00:24:24
Speaker
But you might have a problem with how you're sending pricing over. What's on your pricing sheet? How is that laid out? How are you explaining the process and your experience and so on? What does that email look like? Is there something in the way that you're communicating with people that might be turning people off? So I really appreciate that.
00:24:41
Speaker
approach that scientific approach to it, very methodical in determining, okay, what step am I going wrong here? Or am I not getting any inquiries at all, which is a whole different set of issues and things that you then have to work through. But I can appreciate that for sure. Once somebody reaches out and says,
00:24:59
Speaker
Hey, maybe we decided to go with somebody else or we're not going to go with you. Feel free if I'm jumping ahead. If there's another step in there, let me know. But I would love to hear if you respond back to that person in a certain way or what that response typically looks like.
00:25:16
Speaker
Typically what I hear back from clients, because I try to follow up two to three times depending on how much I wanted to work with those people, how much I thought we were a good fit to begin with. You know, if somebody reaches out to me and they say they have a $1,500 photography budget for their 10 hour wedding day, I know right off the bat that's not my client. And so I'm not going to try to upsell them to a $4,500 wedding package because we're just too far apart there.
00:25:44
Speaker
Typically for those people, you know, I send over my email. I actually have your and Krista's pricing guide. I added that onto my new website and I really love it. So I send that as a nice little button in my email to them. And if I don't hear back from those people, I'll shoot them one more email a couple of days later. Hey, hope you got the pricing guide. If there's anything I can help you with, let me know.
00:26:06
Speaker
Sometimes I never hear back. Sometimes they come back and they say like, hey, I love your work, but you're way out of budget. And I will refer them to a couple newer photographers in the area that I know would jump at the chance at that. If there's somebody who doesn't have that issue and I find out that they went with somebody else, I don't actually ask too many questions right now. It's something that is kind of my goal for this year is to build that after process.
00:26:36
Speaker
kind of a little backstory. We thought we were moving to Japan this summer and now we're staying in Texas. So even though we've been in Texas, now is kind of the time where I'm like doubling down and really stretching to that next level. So yeah, typically if they don't book with me, you know, if it's from a planner or somebody referred them, I'll ask the planner, Hey, did they say anything about why?
00:27:03
Speaker
it's usually just they liked that package better, or they felt like they had more of a connection. And those always are like, all right, well, that's fine. And we'll move on. But I would really like to set up a little survey and see how that goes so that I can learn even more about what the missing links are.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I find that if someone decides not to go with you, sometimes they just never respond to your follow-ups. So you never hear from them again, you never know. I think a lot of times people offer up that information. So if you're following up and following up and they've decided to go with somebody else, they say, we've decided to go with somebody else. And for those people who are really brave and just want to know, I think especially at a certain time in your business. And it's one of those things where if you're buried in work, then maybe it's just not worth going the extra mile and being, well, lie.
00:27:52
Speaker
But I do think, and we did this for a while, we'd just gently say, oh, okay, that's great. We'd love to know what was the deciding decision or factor in your decision. Or would you mind if we asked why you decided to go with somebody else? And some people you just never hear back from and that's okay. And we're not going to follow up on that question.
00:28:09
Speaker
But a lot of times people are willing to say it could be one of a million different reasons. It is kind of nice to know, right? Whether it's, hey, you're just out of budget, or, hey, we found somebody whose style is just a little bit closer to ours. Krista had shot film. Well, we had shot film back when we were photographers.
00:28:25
Speaker
I say back in the day, but that was like, I think the last time we shot was, I don't know, 2016, 17-ish somewhere in there. So, it's not too far ago. But point being is, you know, some people would just say, hey, the film thing makes us nervous, you know? Regardless, I do think there is a gentle, non-pushy way to ask that question. So, if you are brave enough out there listening, I wouldn't be scared to ask. They've already decided to go with somebody else. What's the worst that's gonna happen? They're not gonna respond and that's okay.
00:28:54
Speaker
And especially you really don't have to do it for everybody. But if it's an inquiry that you really thought was going to book with you and then didn't, I think that's my priority anyway, for following up with those people. Because to me that says, well, maybe I didn't like speak to my ideal client in the right way. Did I miss communicate something? And I want to retain people like that on my calendar. So I want to make sure I'm meeting that type of expectations.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I do want to shift the conversation now to talking about just kind of education in the industry. So one of the things that you had mentioned early on was that you had this budget for your master's program and you were going to shift at least some of that budget towards photography now. And I assume as with anything that somebody would get into, you sought out education.
Seeking Criticism for Growth
00:29:43
Speaker
I'd love to hear about what sorts of things you invested in or who you sought to learn from.
00:29:49
Speaker
And you don't have to name specific people or whatnot. Who did you let into your life give you criticism? And did you ever receive bad criticism? And I guess what does good healthy criticism look like? So loaded questions there, but I'm just going to let you have at it. Oh, man. That is really loaded, Davy. Thank you. So yes, I will first say that I'm an education junkie and that I bought
00:30:15
Speaker
too many things that maybe were redundant or that I didn't need necessarily. But I also truly believe that you can learn something from everybody, whether it be things that you don't want to do or things that you do, you know, want to emulate. So when I first started, I found the Amy and Jordan free. I think it was the posing course I saw first.
00:30:41
Speaker
And I was just like in love with their energy. I loved the style and they just seemed like such genuine people. And I think this is kind of where my background helped me was that for the most part, I have a good BS reader. And so I think I'm pretty good at narrowing down. No, this person is totally in it for the money. This person is not a good teacher. So I started in the Amy and Jordan community.
00:31:11
Speaker
And I really can't think of a better place to start because they keep the group nice, but helpful. And there's a lot of community minded people within the group. So I've made some of my best friends there. I've learned about other educators there. So that was like my basis for shooting and editing and things like that. I also love podcasts. So I've been a longtime listener of brands that book.
00:31:35
Speaker
But I would just listen to the podcast every day in the shower. Like that was my quiet time. And I would just pick a topic, you know, I'd run through Gold Digger and Boca and you guys and oh goodness, Laelia Mottie is like, I just love podcasts. And so I would be like, what do I want to learn about my business today and pick a podcast and listen? So I consumed a lot of information pretty early on.
00:32:01
Speaker
Into my second year was when I decided certain things that I wanted for my business and I needed those one-on-one things. So I'm a hybrid shooter. So when I wanted to learn film, I sought out people who were experts in film and learned from them. When I found out I was moving my business, I sought out a mentor that was phenomenal at moving businesses. So just trying to find those experts, that's kind of my path.
00:32:30
Speaker
But the things that I see where people go wrong with constructive criticism in the education world are one, I feel like people aren't really asking for it. So you'll see posts like, gentle constructive criticism wanted or whatever. And
00:32:50
Speaker
Personally, I think that that is like a cop-out. There's no reason to not hear the honest truth. If you want to grow, sometimes you need to hear hard things and there's kind ways to say them. So I would encourage people that are listening that if you're somebody who's really afraid of hearing those hard things, you're gonna get stuck at some point and you need to hear them. There's also kind of a lack of educators, I feel like, that are willing to give you
00:33:20
Speaker
constructive criticism before you pay them. And so for me, I'm not going to spend money with people who aren't willing to have a full conversation with me ahead of time and really kind of show me why I should invest with them. So those are two of the biggest things that strike me as being needed to work on within our industry. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?
00:33:43
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would agree. First, one of the points that you made about education in general and investing in too much education, I love to learn as well. I love to try out different tools and stuff like that. And one thing that Krista and I have installed in our lives is just as a rule.
00:33:59
Speaker
one book at a time, it's one whatever at a time. And I think people get into this trap of thinking, oh, if I take this course, then I'm going to be successful. That's not true. A culmination of things lead to success. But you know, it should be, hey, if I take this course, I'm going to learn XYZ. And then maybe if you implement XYZ, it's gonna make you a better photographer and you're gonna be successful. But I think sometimes people cop out, you know, when it comes to education, they're like, I just need to take this course.
00:34:27
Speaker
And then I'm going to be more brave and I'm going to put myself out there a little bit more and you know, whatever and everything's going to fall into place with my business. I don't think that's the case. That's number one. Number two, just about putting pictures out there on Facebook. You know, I see those all the time being part of a lot of different photography groups in particular, where it's like, hey, gentle construction of criticism, like you said, or hey, we'd love to hear what everybody thinks. And I just think,
00:34:48
Speaker
You don't want to know what everybody thinks. You don't want to know what everybody thinks. First of all, there's a chance that you get some really good feedback in there. There's also a solid chance you get some really bad feedback in there. And you can kind of tell, I think, when somebody has an ax to grind, just in terms of their criticism, it almost turns into a rant on their part or I don't know. But I just think a whole throwing your stuff out on there on Facebook and asking for criticism is probably not the way to go, but you should have people in your life.
00:35:16
Speaker
where you can send them an image and say, hey, I need feedback on this and they're gonna be able to tell you the hard things and you better be prepared for the hard things. And if you ask for feedback, like you said, you might hear hard things. So, bracing yourself for that and realizing like that's what's gonna help you grow, you know? And I would say,
00:35:32
Speaker
This is certainly true. Actually, this has been true of pretty much any business, but in photography, some of the biggest areas of growth were in one-on-one mentoring. And it was great being able to sit down with somebody and then giving the honest truth like, hey, this is – and since you've picked that person, you probably pick – in our case, we pick people whose work resonated with us and whose style we thought were similar to our own. But then even in the coaches that I've had in the last couple of years, as my focus anyways has been more on digital marketing, coming along and saying, Davey, what are you doing?
00:36:02
Speaker
You're focused on X, Y, Z. And X and Y have very little impact on your business, but you're devoting a lot of time to those things. Why? You know? And getting me outside of my comfort zone and really taking more of an honest look at the business. Yeah, I mean, I think overall, really agree with all of that. What are some tips that you have for people for being able to take some of those maybe seemingly harsher comments about maybe work or what you're doing in your business?
00:36:30
Speaker
Oh, I know it's hard to hear some of the things. I'll never forget my dear friend, Emily. She came over to show me some stuff on Lightroom for that very first session I did. And you know, this is before I took any courses at all. And she went through my pictures and she's like, one, two, three, four, you have six different shades of green here. And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, this is not consistent.
00:36:58
Speaker
And that wasn't a word that I was familiar with yet. And so she was like, you can't give your clients 10 different styles all in one gallery. Like that doesn't make sense. I just was like, Oh, you know, I didn't know. And so I think the best way to look at constructive criticism is a challenge.
00:37:19
Speaker
And I'm like an Enneagram to wing three. So I like to take on those challenges and blow people out of the water and excel with it. But even for just those small things, if you can challenge yourself, if somebody tells you, you know what? On your website, this, this, and this isn't working because of whatever. And you can look at it and say, okay, you know, this is somebody I respect.
00:37:48
Speaker
and implement those changes as a challenge to rise up to that. And when you get those harsh criticisms, just take it as a challenge to do better because they're not criticizing you because they don't like you or they don't like your work. If you've let the right people in initially, they're challenging you to do better because they want to see you grow and succeed. So once you have found the core group of people
00:38:16
Speaker
You really just have to understand that you trust them and they want what's best for you too. So not to take it even as a criticism, but take it as a challenge to do even better.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah, as an Enneagram type 8, and I don't know, I'm not super versed with Enneagrams. I don't even know really what a wing is. But I know that 8 is the challenger. I feel like I take that the same way. With criticism, it's okay. Whatever it is, whatever obstacle this is, I am going to overcome this. What is Enneagram 2? So, 2 is like your helper, your empath, community. And 3 is like your type A, perfectionist, that kind of thing.
00:38:59
Speaker
That's so interesting that Type 2 then would take that as a challenge to me. That doesn't seem like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but so the three is you really, really want to succeed. So you'll do whatever it takes to succeed. I feel like it's a pretty good mix. You can kind of balance things out, but at your worst, you're like, oh my gosh, you're overwhelmed with all the feelings and the drama and you just get little anxiety maybe. But yeah, I mean, taking that criticism and just applying it to
00:39:29
Speaker
the specific thing, taking yourself out of the equation is just so huge. And I know that's not in a lot of people's nature, but I really think that if you want to grow and have a successful business, you kind of have to start working on that.
Choosing the Right Mentors
00:39:45
Speaker
So some other tips that I like to tell people, don't check your email first thing in the morning. You know, a lot of people will pop off those emails at night. Sorry, we went with somebody else right before they go to bed because they're just cleaning up their to-do list.
00:39:57
Speaker
But then if you hear that first thing in the morning, that kind of like rocks your day, starts you in kind of a bad head space. So with the people I worked with, I always tell them just, you do you first. You eat your breakfast, you drink your coffee, play with your kids, take care of what you need to take care of first before letting that space open to where you can receive those things. You know, if you have a call with your mentor scheduled and you've had a horrific day,
00:40:27
Speaker
I have yet to run into a mentor who is so hard pressed on their schedule that they would not let you reschedule. You know, you have to prepare yourself and be in a good headspace to listen and receive those things. If things have been going wrong or you're just so stressed, then you're just not ready and that's okay. Just take a breather and regroup.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Don't let people put their demands on your day before you have prioritized whatever you want your day to look like. Same thing with social media, just your phone in general. I've been getting served this ad for this phone called, it's like Palm or something like that. Apparently, it's supposed to be like a distraction free phone. And I am so tempted to, I can't remember the name of it. If I find it, I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, I would love to hear that. All of that, just kind of all of what you were just saying kind of hitting home with me, I'm like, okay, just want to burn my phone.
00:41:18
Speaker
But not the point. As we wrap up the interview here, what kinds of things, and you mentioned this a little bit, but what kind of things should people look for in mentors and coaches and just, I don't know, community even? I guess maybe more specifically mentors and coaches. I'm a big believer that coaching, especially in a small group setting or a one-on-one setting, just is an avenue typically or it's a great way to grow or creates a great environment to grow rather. What kinds of things in your experience should people look for?
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I've worked with one on one mentors. I've done the mastermind now, which are kind of like two separate things, but both really beneficial in their own way. Some guiding thoughts on choosing a mentor is that Instagram is not somebody's bank account. It doesn't show all of their experience. You could absolutely love somebody's photography, but they might not be great at the business side. They might not be a great teacher. They might
00:42:15
Speaker
not have others best interests in mind. And that's okay. Like not everybody is supposed to be a teacher, but not everybody knows that they're not supposed to be a teacher. So you need to kind of evaluate that. I don't think you should invest in people who aren't willing to talk with you in depth ahead of time, especially if you're going to be investing thousands of dollars. They should be willing to hop on a call and give you some solid reasons why
00:42:45
Speaker
you should invest with them and a really laid out plan on, this is why I am for you. I think sometimes, especially when we're looking at people who we admire, we give them a pass. Oh, well, they're so awesome. I don't want to waste their time, but you're paying them for a service.
00:43:05
Speaker
you're essentially interviewing them and that's okay, you should. Yeah, especially for your personal service, you know, like a one on one coaching or a mastermind sort of situation where you're going to be meeting with them personally anyway. So it's best for everybody to figure out whether it's going to be a good fit. Whereas like if you're just buying a course, maybe not apply that same thought, you know? Right. But for the one on ones and stuff, absolutely. I think mistakes that
00:43:29
Speaker
the consumer can make are you just really like somebody so you want to hire them, but are they really an expert in what's going to make you grow? Are they an expert in tech? Are they an expert in film? Are they an expert in social media? So some of the onus is on you because you have to be watching those people, reading about those people, interacting with those people.
00:43:50
Speaker
so that you can validate that yes, this is an expert, this is somebody worthy of learning from. My kind of litmus test for people, I really like to work with people who are community minded, who are open to sharing some ideas freely, and then dig in more later. People who already feel the abundance theory, I don't wanna be working with somebody who then
00:44:17
Speaker
I find out later thinks that everybody is their competition because I don't believe that everybody's my competition. So I think once you figure out who your ideal client is and what your specific problems are, you start looking for mentors who can check those boxes that are important to you and then you have to do what they tell you or it's not going to work. You have to implement after.
00:44:39
Speaker
That's for sure. That's the truth. Have to implement. I like what you said off the start, you know, IG is not someone's bank account. That and the quote in the beginning, two of my favorite things from this episode for sure. I'm gonna get you a t-shirt that says, scared money, don't make money. Yeah, please. It's coming your way.
00:44:58
Speaker
Okay, I will be waiting for it and I'll wear it all the time. All right. And I love t-shirts like that too. Krista hates the fact that I love t-shirts like that. She's like, can I get rid of this? No, you can't. Why are you wearing this out? You're not going to work out right now. But anyways, I really appreciate you taking the time and chatting with us about this topic because like I said, I do think it's such an important
00:45:17
Speaker
topic, especially as you're first getting started, but just in business in general, who we trust, who has our best interest in mind, who is willing to give us feedback and thoughts about our work and the decisions that we're making. Really appreciate your time and we will definitely link to all of the different places, social media handles and those sorts of things in the show notes. If anybody's listening but not in a place where they can follow right now, head on over to the show notes and we'll make sure that we have those links available to you. Thank you, Anna. Really appreciate it.
00:45:46
Speaker
Awesome. Thank you, Davey. I appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in to the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to DaveyandChrista.com.
00:46:10
Speaker
you