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How to be part of Web3 and DeFi with Dmitry AKA @BackTheBunny, RabbitX
83 Plays1 year ago
Behind the blockchain is a series of conversations with technology leaders who have built successful products, teams and careers in Web3. You will get a chance to discover how successful individuals were able to accomplish their career objectives, the skills they have acquired, the mistakes and difficulties they encountered, and the advice they can offer you to help you reach your own career aspirations.
In this episode, I spoke with Dmitry, AKA BackTheBunny on Twitter from RabbitX. We spoke about how Dmitry was able to build an engaged audience and large following on Twitter plus the skills he has learnt throughout his career which have enabled him to be successful in helping to grow RabbitX. We talked about RabbitX, DeFi and what Dmitry would change about Web3.
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Transcript
The Future of Space and DeFi
00:00:00
Speaker
I guess if I could change anything in space, it would be like to change people's just preoccupation with the silly stuff that's really noisy and visible and just start trying to go out of your way to find the credible, cool stuff that's being built that has real value. If you could go back to the start of your career, any advice for your younger self? Yeah, I definitely think there will be many different ways to do DeFi and it will vary a lot on the centralization front and on the permissionless, no KYC front too.
00:00:30
Speaker
Can you give away some of your secrets then for building an engaged audience online? Engage with people, put yourself out there, don't underestimate yourself and actually believe in the space. Understand what's being built here and why it's structurally better. Don't be a tourist. People will be able to pick up on
Introduction to Dimitri and RabbitX
00:00:50
Speaker
that. I think that's a big one too. Hello and welcome to the Behind the Blockchain podcast. Today I'm joined by Dimitri from RabbitX, also known as Back the Bunny on social media.
00:01:00
Speaker
If anyone listening or watching loves DeFi, then you'll probably have heard of him on Twitter. Dimitri, welcome to the show. How are you? Doing great. Doing great. Great to speak with you, man. Happy to be here. Good stuff. So, Dimitri, for people who don't know who you are, could you introduce yourself, please?
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, so my name is Dimitri. I'm the guy behind the Back the Bunny account on Twitter. I work for an awesome project called RabbitX. We are a perpetuals project on StarkNet.
00:01:32
Speaker
And yeah, been with the team for about a year and a half or so, gone through some different iterations and development cycles and roles and all kinds of cool stuff and have a tradify background and some startup experience and published writing experience. So I have a pretty generalist work history that comports pretty well with what I've been doing here so far. Great stuff. Yeah, I was going to ask you if you could talk us through your career journey so far.
00:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit unusual, but I guess it has a theme of sorts to it, very financially oriented. I started off, frankly, managing a gym back from Arizona, when we were from originally. I did that for a while and then got a job in finance that brought me out to New York City.
00:02:24
Speaker
as a risk analyst at a brokerage on their hedge fund desk. I did that for a handful of years, Series 7, Series 63, CFA Level 1, and good corporate, proper financial experience. And then I did some writing for some publications throughout, financial, political, economic, several different ones that had been published across a handful.
00:02:48
Speaker
and then did some B2B sales work in the startup world for financial technology again, FinTech. And yeah, then I had a bit of a good run as many people did in the bull market.
Career Transition to DeFi
00:03:06
Speaker
It actually led me to crypto. My DeFi crypto background was a little, I learned about it a long time ago, but actually really only properly got into it around 2020.
00:03:17
Speaker
Came across DeFi during that time and got really into that on a personal level. And then the bear market wiped me out as it did many and made me kind of realize, Hey, I love this space. Let's see. Let's see what's here, you know, job wise. And it brought me to RabbitX and here I am. So, and the hindsight, I'm very happy it happened because I'm much happier here and with what I've learned than I was just, you know, managing my own money and, you know, just trading and what have you. So. That sounds cool.
00:03:47
Speaker
So could you just talk us through or maybe describe what you do in your current position? So what is it that you do for RabbitX? So that's been very, uh, contingent on like our development, like where we've been, you know, cause my roles have definitely changed. Uh, initially when I got brought on, it was more
00:04:06
Speaker
writing, some strategy, communications, community stuff. And then we pivoted. We used to be an interest rate swap project. That was when we were strips finance. And then that kind of struggled to find product market fit. I think interest rate swaps are a little nascent for DeFi as far as where it stands now. So we still wanted to be a derivatives deck, so we pivoted to perps. And so I did a lot of research and
00:04:32
Speaker
some, you know, work into other products and kind of analysis there and kind of helped cultivate and build the product. So some product management, some strategy, a lot of research that was during the buildup of rabbit. And then when we launched on testnet and then, you know, started to get enough of a product ready that we wanted eyes on us.
00:04:50
Speaker
it then pivoted to like, all right, well, how are we going to, how are we going to get known? Like, how are we going to get visibility?
Building an Online Presence
00:04:56
Speaker
And I've been basically, uh, purely, not purely, but mostly like you could say content marketing, writing community, stuff like that. But most of like the visibility that you see on Twitter has been extremely powerful. You could say just, um, I'm kind of loath to say content marketing, but I guess it's technically true. Uh, like a way to kind of funnel attention and, um,
00:05:18
Speaker
get eyes on us and help build us up. And it's been, again, we've done really, really well from that. So I do mostly that. I do all of our content, our writing, and podcasts like this and whatnot. So it's kind of all over the place. I don't want to be too rambly, but I guess that starts us off as to how I got to where I am within Rabbit. Yeah, for sure.
00:05:40
Speaker
That's really interesting that you've been able to pick up on all sorts of different roles within Rabbit, to be honest. Did you start out and think, you know what, now I've moved into the Web3 space or the DeFi space. Now I want to be the face of a project or I want to be the person who drives traffic to the project and this kind of stuff. Was that an idea or is that just kind of naturally happened over time? Yeah, no, it naturally happened.
00:06:08
Speaker
I really wanted to do a good job getting us visibility and frankly getting an awareness for what we are. And frankly, I thought from the very get-go, the best way to do that is to be original and to say stuff that is worth paying attention to. That's really kind of the emphasis of it all. I think that's why it's been successful because this is why I say I'm like loath to call it content marketing because that feels insincere.
00:06:31
Speaker
And like, I'm very much not, like I'm very sincere. And I think people can tell that with what I post and write. You could almost just say it's like me blogging, frankly, or running the site, like the account, like a personal account. And so people can really like authentically see me. And I think that's been attractive for like people seeing a, you know, a transparent, forthright, hopefully competent person working for a project. They think, all right, well, if this project attracts this guy, who I like, or who I like what he has to say.
00:06:57
Speaker
Let me look into the project and it's been this very like organic sort of way to attract, to get attraction towards us or get, you know, attention towards us. So no, I didn't at all view it as this. In fact, I was very, I was very worried it wouldn't work out and I wouldn't be as interesting as I hoped I would be. So yeah, it just developed naturally is the short way to say it. Wow. And is there anything, anything notable that you've learned throughout your career that's really allowed you to thrive in this type of role for Rabbit?
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's been kind of a cumulative thing. Not so much from like I'd say, you know, I would say it's probably less
00:07:37
Speaker
my career background, I'd say that's probably the least important thing in a way. It's pretty diffused and it certainly has helped me cultivate social and communication skills that I'm sure I use, but I feel like it's more what I do on a personal level in terms of my reading and what naturally interests me and how I distill all that and present it on the Back to Bunny account that's really moved the needle.
00:08:01
Speaker
So I feel like it's more actually a result of my personal stuff I have done in my downtime and what naturally is stuff I've learned about that's being leveraged here. But the professional background does as well because, as I mentioned, it's pretty broad. And I'm sure that communication style I've cultivated over the years plays a role too.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. You mentioned like published writing and that sort of stuff, obviously being able to write well and write things that people want to read or have or can read, I guess, you know, that gives you that ability to be able to blog and write and create content that people want to digest, I suppose. Totally. Like, you know, without that tradify experience, I might not have certain understandings that I pull from and then the published writing definitely feeds into it as well. So yeah, it's rather holistic. It's definitely a little bit of a lot of things.
00:08:53
Speaker
Cool. So is there any any key traits that you think that you've developed that allowed you to be successful in this type
Opportunities and Challenges in Web3
00:09:02
Speaker
of role? By the sound of it, curiosity being one, you know, getting into the space in 2020 and wanting to learn, you know, everything about it and now you're kind of fully involved. So any other traits that you think have really helped in your success? Yeah, on a personal level, like this is one I really harken
00:09:19
Speaker
back to a lot in another pot I did as well as someone asked something similar and I think curiosity is like by far like the the like you know learning like self-educating and in order to even get there you sort of have to be curious about what's going on and not afraid to you know give it a shot and if you don't know what you're doing which you probably don't you know and no one does when they're first starting out you know it's fine
00:09:42
Speaker
Like just having the curiosity and the interest to just let's, you know, there's something here. I think, you know, this is a skill that I should cultivate. This is something I should learn about, even if it's not directly related to my field or what I'm doing. Like you could do certain AI tools and stuff like that.
00:10:00
Speaker
Just learn by doing. Just go out and try. That's probably the biggest thing by far. And then along those lines, I'd say don't be afraid of screwing up and don't be afraid of putting yourself out there. So I don't know if you want to say intrepidness. That feels a little bold. But in order to know if you have ideas worth listening to, you've got to put them out there. So don't be afraid if some of them are good. It's OK. I think that's what holds people back quite a lot, is that willingness to put themselves out there.
00:10:28
Speaker
either because they might have that, I guess even that fear of people they know, maybe judging some of the stuff that they're saying or something like that. I see it all the time, to be honest. Obviously, a lot of the place where I build my network is linked in.
00:10:46
Speaker
being a recruiter, obviously I'm on there pretty much all day every day. And only in the last couple of years have I really started really putting myself out there in terms of content and creating content and this kind of stuff. And obviously creating the podcast is the first podcast I've recorded. I mean, we're kind of, I think maybe 15 episodes in now, 15 episodes in. So yeah,
00:11:11
Speaker
I've learned and developed, and now I really don't mind if my face is out there or my content itself is out there because you want it to be. That's kind of the idea that you want people to be able to learn from it. But there's tons of people who maybe feel a little bit nervous about putting that kind of stuff out there, putting themselves out there. Have you got any advice for anyone if they're trying to start, or they want to start in that kind of space, or they want to start with content? Yeah, I know. I know where you're coming from.
00:11:40
Speaker
you realize you should take these opportunities too as they present themselves. When you asked to have me on, I was like, yes. I've learned just saying yes to stuff, especially when it gets you in touch with a cool smart guy with shared interests, which I would describe you as.
00:11:59
Speaker
It's nice to make connections like that. We're making a piece of content together right now that we hope is useful. That will be persistent and continue to exist out there. It's not like it's a radio broadcast where it exists one time and then poof, it's gone. So who knows, a couple months from now who might come across this and might want to speak to me, want to speak to you. So you really learn
00:12:18
Speaker
And this ties in a bit to your question, I think, like to increase your surface area of exposure or, you know, being noticed or being listened to. So, like, you know, the content you create, like, you know, the threads I write or the blog posts I put out there, like, you know, those are always working in a way, right? They're always floating out there in some way who knows might come across them.
00:12:39
Speaker
read them. I've had some people DM me from stuff I've had out for months that I thought no one was looking at again in terms of someone's looking at them. So really kind of you, like you're putting yourself out there is increasing your surface area for luck, your surface area for getting heard, being read, noticed, etc. So like, you know, say yes. Say yes as often as you can.
00:12:59
Speaker
um and you know to get yourself to kind of get over that hump I guess uh which was your original question you know just as best as you can try to immunize yourself from like being afraid of criticisms or
00:13:15
Speaker
the negativity you're afraid might happen. That's usually where the apprehension comes in. And honestly, most people aren't going to be negative. All those fears you have, they're really unfounded. It's like the overweight or out of shape person going to the gym. It's like, oh, the people are going to
00:13:30
Speaker
They're going to notice me, whatever. I was like, no, no one cares. They're not going to even look at you. In fact, they might even think it's cool that I'm a big guy. I have a workout background. No one has ever knocked on an out of shape person trying. I've never seen that literally in over a decade of going to the gym. So it's like, remember that when you're putting yourself out there. People generally like to see others succeed. And unless you're putting out some really incendiary stuff or attacking something,
00:13:57
Speaker
You can probably expect that it's going to be relatively positive. At worst, it would be neutral when no one notices it, which is whatever. Fine, at least you tried. But don't get in your own head and don't think that people are going to be critical or negative.
Content Creation in Web3
00:14:10
Speaker
Most won't notice. And frankly, those that do will probably be encouraging for you if they can tell you tried. So that's my long answer there, but I hope it's useful. That's good advice. That's good advice. And I guess something to add as well in Web 3, everyone
00:14:27
Speaker
The industry is still early enough for people to want to help each other and projects to help each other and people within various different projects to try and lift everyone up, I suppose, and really grow the space. So it's kind of a perfect time to start making content, really, whilst everyone's still in that phase of wanting to help each other and really help grow.
00:14:44
Speaker
I always had a really interesting conversation actually. One of the podcast episodes, I think it was number two, with someone called Michael Aionita. So Michael is the VP of engineering at DAP radar, if you know of DAP radar.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah, so Mike actually got his job at DatRadar because he was producing YouTube videos about Web3, about various types of engineering and content and this kind of stuff. And DatRadar spotted him on YouTube and then called him up and said, look, we love what you're saying. We'd love you to run our engineering team. So that just shows how powerful creating content can be. And if you can push past the fear of putting yourself out there, it can lead to all sorts of possibilities and stuff. And as you said, you build your connections and you kind of
00:15:29
Speaker
You never really know where you're going to end up. Yeah, totally. It's way more powerful than any resume, unless you're maybe a really technical person. But then again, your content is your GitHub at that point, right? It's just different content. But yeah, I think especially in this space, that goes a really long way for people seeing more who you actually are, your competence in a very meritocratic type way. And I just feel like, especially in this industry, your background
00:15:59
Speaker
matters the least you know and if people can see some stuff you put out there that's genuine or is interesting or shows that you have a real sincere you know motivation or organic kind of you know involvement in this arena yeah it does a lot it's really powerful so yeah don't don't be apprehensive put it out there it can't hurt like remember that like your worst case scenario is no one notices it like it's not gonna backfire so just at least put it out there and it will probably only be good good advice
00:16:28
Speaker
So can you can you give away some of your secrets for building an engaged audience online? You know, it's funny, like I don't have very like intentional things I do like with that in mind. Like when I write about something, it's because it honestly interests me. Or when I put a comment out there or when I'm even like a reply guy, like I'm not doing it with the
00:16:55
Speaker
the intent of mine, all right, like I'm going to build my impressions for the month or let's get engagement up. It's really like an authentic interaction. And I just, and I feel like if you do that enough, people understand and sense who you are. Like they know who they're talking to in a way they know you as well as if they
00:17:13
Speaker
had met you in real life eventually i feel many people online know me better than friends that i've known in person for quite a while or even my brother frankly at this point you know it's as they've seen a lot more of me in like my current uh stage of personal development you know uh so time what was your question oh how to build engage audience um you know i i would just be very persistent with
00:17:40
Speaker
interacting with people, saying, you know, if you have something to say, don't be afraid to say it. If you don't have anything to say, though, also don't think you have to put something out there. This is something that really, I've actually written about this a couple times, like, what did I say? I think I said it in the, there's no problem with silence in the absence of substance.
00:17:57
Speaker
Like don't think you have to be topical always. And, you know, a recurrent event occurs. I need to put something out there for engagement or whatever.
Balancing Online and Personal Identity
00:18:06
Speaker
Like people, they'll sense like that kind of rote, uninspired posting. That's probably like everyone else's. Like the best way to stick out is to stick out and to do that. You just, you can't recycle or say the same things that everyone else is saying. So try to be original. And by that, I mean, at least have the thought to be your own. Um,
00:18:26
Speaker
And just be authentically you when you share stuff or when you opine about something. It goes a long way and people really sense that. So I think naturally that builds a level of engagement because people sense they're not talking with a
00:18:40
Speaker
with a contrived sort of personality. They sense they're talking with another guy who they want to hear what he has to say. And you know, I think that's the, it's the kind of reason why like no one, you know, very few people engage with corporate accounts on Twitter because they're very safe. They're very predictable. They're not very interesting, right? Like don't be concerned with letting yourself sign through even in domains where it's more maybe professionally inclined or more like, you know,
00:19:05
Speaker
as a business angle to it, I think that's the best way to get engagement. Don't be afraid of being a little unorthodox and unpolished, so to speak. Be thoughtful, be substantive. That's good. It's good advice. And do you think, this may be a slightly challenging question, do you think you've found it
00:19:29
Speaker
Easier to speak things that are on your mind or easier to say certain things because of the back the bunny Account as opposed to Dimitri and this is my face kind of account. Hmm I'm not I don't know, you know, that's an interesting like counterfactual to run
00:19:47
Speaker
if I had done this like with the docs to count. I mean, the thing is though, I am quasi docs, like, you know, people who I work with know who I am. And I really just block, you know, I block my face, but you can see my, you know, from here down, you can hear my voice. So I like that it's enough to like keep me personally. I want people to focus on like what I'm saying and the substance that I'm putting out there. And I just don't think my face adds to that, I guess.
00:20:15
Speaker
Um, but like in real life, like I did some speaking events, uh, the last couple of weeks in Austin and San Francisco and I docked there. Like people know I was the guy behind the account. So I'm not like ultra reserved about it. Like I'm not too schizo here, but I just don't like to have, I just don't think there's like, you know, uh, I like it more of the essence of it being this, this, this idea or this sort of brand, so to speak, that is me, but it's disassociated from my face. And I don't think I would change the tenor or.
00:20:46
Speaker
maybe like the aggressiveness that I say things or the stuff I cover if you saw my face. Because I do say some things that are sometimes a little off-color or, you know, they're, I mean, they're a little, they're a little based. Like, you know, it's, I don't think, I don't think that would change. So.
00:21:02
Speaker
I'm just thinking out loud from your question because it's an interesting one. I'd like to think, no, that it really wouldn't make much of a difference, but I like just keeping them separate because I just don't think there's a value add on the personal front. And as long as you don't go too far with that and avoid in-person interactions or conversations like I'm having with you where I'm not putting on a voice synthesizer or something, you can get a tasteful boundary there of maintaining your
00:21:30
Speaker
personal identity, not putting that out there, but also putting out your authentic self. And people are really drawn, I think, to that more than a face. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And I guess that's
00:21:42
Speaker
That's the beauty of Web3. Being able to remain anonymous in the Web3 space is very normalized. If you were in more of the corporate world, it definitely wouldn't be.
Web3 Startup Culture
00:21:53
Speaker
So if people are wanting to get started with content growing the community or growing an online presence, whatever it might be, if you're in the Web3 space, then you can become an online persona and keep that very separate from your personal one. I guess that's the beauty of the industry that we're in.
00:22:11
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Great. There's there's a place for both. And I don't think and I like you said, it's not viewed distastefully. I think it's actually completely people get it. And yeah, so whatever makes you feel more comfortable, you know, how you put yourself out there. It's not something it's frowned upon, I feel either way. Yeah, for sure. So what's it really like them building in a startup in web three? Obviously, there's the glamorous side of it that people see where, you know, there's been
00:22:42
Speaker
money invested from the VC and everyone's scaling and growing and making those money and crypto and all this sort of stuff. But what's it actually like when you're on the ground in it day to day? So, I mean, yeah, it's like just a really radically remote, very results driven sort of environment, you know, where we have things we want to discuss or want deliverables we want to hit on and
00:23:09
Speaker
It's more just like get it done. You know, one thing I really like the most about is that like it's not, you know, this obviously is not like a clock in style of job. Like it's not like you need to, like the hours that you work don't really matter so much so long as you get the things you need done. And I really like the sort of radical emphasis on output and deliverables and productivity more than like a veneer of that, which I feel like the corporate world and like the,
00:23:35
Speaker
you know, having to work in an office world is very preoccupied with in a superficial way that to me isn't like an all necessarily indicative of how productive or how much value you're adding. I think that's the right way to view it. It's not the hours you're working, it's the value you're adding. And we just only see it through that lens. And I'm not sure, I've worked for a couple of DeFi projects actually, and they both were like that, including Rabbit that I'm at now. So just drawing from that,
00:24:03
Speaker
That seems to definitely be a theme there. And I have my to-do list. I have the stuff I do every day that I like to check in on and make sure everything's going well, and then the deliverable ones that I'm working on. And as long as I'm consistently grinding towards that and getting stuff out there, then we're all good. It's really cool to be around a bunch of adults that don't try to micromanage how you do things.
00:24:25
Speaker
and just are kind of guided by a similar like Talos and objective and belief in terms of like DeFi and what we're working towards. And it's refreshing and it's fun. Like I can't imagine working anywhere else or in another industry. So yeah, it's fun. It's really cool to be able to work with people who are output oriented and aren't superficial. No, that sounds good.
00:24:54
Speaker
Is there anyone or anything, sorry, that you think people need to be aware of? So if they're making the shift from web two into web three, is there anything that you really need to be aware of, whether it be mindset or the industry or technology or certain expectations, maybe or whatever it might be? Anything that springs to mind? You know, I think, and this is something that was a little jarring for me at first, was like,
00:25:20
Speaker
Because in the traditional kind of business environment, you could say Web2 environment. I'll use it as a proxy for old economy work, corporate work, office work, even startup work. If it's making you go to an office and I'm going to use Web2 as a proxy for that. Those jobs have very clearly defined
00:25:41
Speaker
you've done your KPI, you've hit your quota, like, good job, like you did the confines of, you know, your division of labor is more clear cut, and you did the job description well, so you know you're doing a good job.
00:25:57
Speaker
I think most jobs generally are relatively good at that, and as they should be, like old economy jobs, web2 jobs, there's much less of that in web3. And I remember being very almost uncomfortable initially when I first got brought on. I was like, am I doing a good job? I didn't get a ton of feedback, which maybe was a cultural thing. Some of our people we work with out of Singapore, so maybe like an Eastern cultural thing is they're not as like feedback oriented, but we were also all very remote.
00:26:26
Speaker
you just don't get that degree of maybe, I don't want to say validation, but being aware like, okay, I'm doing, you like this so far, like I'm doing, I'm on the path of delivering value, something like that. That was much more nebulous at first. So be more comfortable with some ill-defined maybe roles or KPIs or sort of what you're doing. You're gonna have to read the tea leaves a little bit. You have to kind of figure out how to add value.
00:26:54
Speaker
in your own way and that might not be very clearly described to you as like, okay, do this job description. That probably won't exist so much. Maybe if you're technical or a dev, that exists more so because that's much more objective. But in the qualitative sphere, it's definitely much less so. Be a little comfortable with some discomfort in that area and
00:27:16
Speaker
Understand that it's both like liberating and a little, you know, it's, you know, if you get this extra autonomy, but then you also have to figure out how to fill it yourself because no one's holding your hand as much. So somebody keep in mind if you come over here, there's less rigidity, but there's also less like clear cut, do this to accomplish this.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, I guess there's a lot less process involved in a lot of work through startups as they might be in the more corporate world.
The Dynamics of Bear and Bull Markets
00:27:45
Speaker
In larger corporates you might have, right, this is your HR person you can go to for holidays or this or this or that or promotion criteria or weekly one-to-one type things that you might have with line managers and this kind of stuff. So I guess there's a lot less processing in the space currently. It'll probably be something that
00:28:02
Speaker
over time as businesses grow and the space develops, it will probably start to be implemented more and more, I guess, processes and that kind of rigidity maybe. Yeah, possibly. I think that will come with scaling and as certain orgs grow, I think that's just a natural byproduct of being large.
00:28:26
Speaker
You know, like it's a well-known phenomenon that the larger the company, the more bureaucracy and layers of middle management get, you know, instantiated. And there's obviously a reason for that. Like, you know, the structures become more complex and more interactive. You need to have these things. So the communication nodes within the company work.
00:28:44
Speaker
But the thing about DeFi and Web3 is you might not need to hire a lot of people to really, really scale something up. Uniswap, I forget how many employees they have. I think they have 50 or 60. And at certain points, they were doing volume commensurate with Coinbase, which has 5,000 employees. I just did a thread touting the unit economics and the inevitability of DeFi, drawing
00:29:10
Speaker
some insights into the structure of these organizations. Listen, you just need less people. You need less capex. You need less investment. You need all kinds of less to build the same level of service. Maybe you won't see as much strong divisions of labor with these groups because we don't need to get that big from a personnel standpoint to really scale the service of what we're providing. Just thinking out loud on that, I would definitely imagine there would be more structure.
00:29:38
Speaker
But I would not think it's going to be commensurate with what we're seeing in the old economy world because we're building stuff that just needs way less hierarchy and layers of middle management. That's really good insight.
00:29:53
Speaker
really good insight actually and that that's reminded me of a house helping a new decks scale their team almost this time last year actually and they were able to offer team of maybe 12 to 15 people that that was it you know they that's all they wanted to grow by that's all they needed to grow by in order to
00:30:13
Speaker
Scalers as as much as they wanted to and and you know that that was that was it really they didn't need anyone else obviously they may may be able to bring in your kind of team of contractors at certain times and this kind of thing but You know, they were they were very very confident that they could do everything they needed to do with a very lean team Yeah, yeah, like you said, maybe that's where where the future is heading and stuff. Yeah so
00:30:38
Speaker
So what's it like then building through a bear market compared to building through a bull? So I don't have actually a personal history there on building in a bull. I have invested in a bull. But it was me getting wiped out that kind of prompted me to even look for stuff in this space anyway. So I guess I'll speak anecdotally. And the bull, just everything's easier.
00:31:05
Speaker
the vibes are a little higher. There's more tourists. There's more people just trying to grab free money. So I would say there's definitely less sincerity and people actually building because like, hey, this is, I believe in this is like a system and a framework and there's a new paradigm to transact. Whereas I'm sure you have a lot of people who are just like,
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, the VCs are funding a lot for it right now, so why not? And I only need five people to run the company, so let's do it. Those people give flesh that I feel pretty easily, and stuff like this, because they're not actually here for the right reasons. They're just here for economic reasons, which I guess isn't the wrong reasons, but it's a weaker reason. It's a reason with less conviction.
00:31:48
Speaker
Um, whereas now, you know, the people you have here are just a little bit more battle tested. I feel like you, if you're here now building something, it's not necessarily easy. You know, it's not like the BCs are throwing money around in your token, like five Xs for no reason anymore. So now you just have all this, you know, you just made half a million bucks for no reason at all. So, you know, like when that's not there, it drives you as to be more of like a, you know,
00:32:14
Speaker
we're building something for the long run and actually creating something that we think provides value. I think the very nature of those higher walls, that's for a better person, curates for just a better breed of builder and colleague and just person you want to be around. In a way, I like it. I like that it's the more hardcore types that are
00:32:36
Speaker
building something they like and believe in and not just because they think they're tokenal 10x and then the VCs will dump it and then they'll probably abandon the project.
Staying Motivated and Avoiding Burnout
00:32:44
Speaker
There's way less of that. So I would say that's probably the main difference is like the cultural change that in the bear market frankly, I think it's vastly for the better. Yeah, for sure. And obviously at the moment there are
00:33:00
Speaker
a lot of people who are obviously doubling down in their projects and trying to build really good foundations ready for the next, the start of the next run, for example, or maybe their token launch or project launch, whatever it might be. How do you make sure that you don't get burnt out when you're working in this kind of web free startup environment? Because I can imagine it's quite an intense place to be.
00:33:22
Speaker
You know, you've all got tons of deliverables. You know what you need to do. You haven't necessarily got someone there, as you mentioned, kind of holding your hand or you haven't got the processes around you, whatever it might be. But how do you make sure that you don't get burned out in that environment? Yeah, you know, that's that's I sometimes don't do a great job there, honestly, in terms of hours and just, you know, writing and trying to always work towards something.
00:33:49
Speaker
You just have to remember that when your eyes get tired or when your mind's foggy or when your heart's not as much, take some time away. It's okay. No one's measuring your hours. No one's making you cluck in. If you're getting stuff done and working towards something, which if you're inclined to feel burnout, that implicitly states that you're working really hard. I'm sure you're caught up on what you need to catch up on. I'm sure you're not behind.
00:34:17
Speaker
And even if you are a little behind, remember your productivity will almost certainly be better if you take some time away. There are some studies that even found that lawyers who took more vacation time ended up having higher billable hours, their productivity was better. So while that seems counterintuitive, you'd think,
00:34:37
Speaker
Taking vacations and all that would yield less income, but it actually makes the time you work more productive So like don't be preoccupied with like nominal hours. That's a very boomer way I think to view this like all right I need to work 60 hours or 70 hours. No, you need to get like certain Deliverables done because they provide value like if that only takes you four hours. That's fine. Like who cares? You know, it's it's not it's not a nominal hour hour
00:35:02
Speaker
You know linear time thing it's a are you creating thing and remember like creating quality stuff means you need to be present and productive and not burnt out and if you feel that you know
00:35:15
Speaker
go vibe, go take some time, chill a little bit. It's not a bad thing and you'll be better off for it and you'll feel better for it too. So just listen to your body, listen to your eyes and mind and your vigor too. If it's a little abated or not what it once was, don't be afraid to listen to that.
00:35:38
Speaker
Do you think you will get less burnt out if you're working on a problem that you really believe in and that you're really passionate about? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, unequivocally so. If you're working on something that you're just paid to work on, when that's done adequately or when you've fulfilled that, you tend to stop. But when you're doing something because you want it to genuinely be good,
00:36:03
Speaker
That's a hack to get someone to work way harder than what you're nominally paying them for. For the hours and time I spend writing stuff and putting it out there, I'm giving RabbitX way more than what I signed up to work for, frankly. Because a big part that really galvanizes that for me is that I enjoy it. I really do. It reflects positively on Rabbit. It does a great job bringing
00:36:28
Speaker
more traders to us and also reflects really positively on me. I'm building up in my own personal brand and visibility there as well. And as that builds up, it also works well for Rabbit. So there's these beautiful aligned incentives going on here of this reflects positively on you or reflects positively on the company. So it drives the absolute best out of me you possibly could. And you would never find that passion if you just
00:36:52
Speaker
didn't believe in what you were doing. So try to find something that you think is cool and that you think like, yeah, I really want this to succeed. I want this. And when this succeeds, it'll reflect positively on me because there will be some late motivating factors there that you won't anticipate that'll just crop up and will really bring the best out of you. And you'll wake up out of bed every day, just happy to hop online and start doing your thing. So. That's, uh, no, that's good. It's good advice. That's been a,
00:37:21
Speaker
A real common theme, I guess, from having conversations with people like you on this podcast is that people are so passionate about what they do that I feel like
00:37:31
Speaker
It's not necessarily a job. It's more of a real interest than what you really want to do. You'd be reading about and writing about this kind of stuff in your spare time anyway. So if you can get paid for it, then great. And that seems a really common theme within the web through space is the people that are here. And maybe, as you mentioned, maybe the people that are left because of the bear market, maybe the people that are left are the ones that are really passionate about the space and really passionate about what they do. So I think being able to find a project that you're so interested in
00:38:01
Speaker
I think is really, really important. Because there's so much stuff you can do, right? You can either be DeFi or more of the infrastructure stuff, layer one, layer two, whatever it might be. There's so many types of projects within the Web3 space that, you know, if you can find one that you're really, really passionate about, then hopefully that will go quite a long way to solving some of the burnout stuff as well.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Find something you believe in building wise and also something that taps into your abilities in a way that you find enjoyable is a big one too. Try to find something that brings the best out of you. Writing for me and being creative and the stuff I put out there, I just enjoy it
RabbitX's Vision and Challenges
00:38:42
Speaker
naturally. I would be doing it even if I wasn't
00:38:45
Speaker
you know, doing it formally for a project. And that's why you can tell like it's the best thing you can help for, you know, and that's really ideal. It's not like, you know, if you find that that's amazing, you know, but I think if you find the product, you believe in the team, you really like being around. I think if you can find at least that, then you definitely have a winner. Yeah, I agree. For Dimitri, you're obviously really, really passionate about the DeFi space and really passionate about what you guys are doing at RabbitX. Could you introduce us to RabbitX in a little bit more detail, please?
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. So we have been on mainnet since May, I believe, April and May. We are a perpetuals DEX on StarkNet, though the deposits and interactions are done on ETH mainnet. Our model is very similar to DYDXs for those that have a little bit more of a technical understanding of the exchange mechanics of how that would work.
00:39:41
Speaker
So we are an order book decks, which means, you know, order books are more of the traditional TradFi kind of way of providing liquidity, either the way that frankly, everyone outside of DeFi, almost everyone, I mean, like the majority of like all markets exchanges, they use an order book.
00:39:57
Speaker
and DeFi use what's called an automated market maker, which is kind of an inferior form of liquidity, but it's one that's worked so far because it takes a lot of scaling and throughput to support an order book on chain.
00:40:12
Speaker
Our order book right now, so you make it deposit on rabbit. The order book is off chain, you make your trades and executions and those all occur off chain again this is just like the way the acts which is the biggest purpose decks, by far, that there's gas free trading. We provide up to 20 times leverage.
00:40:28
Speaker
We're extremely fast. We have eight markets as they stand right now, and we have a gorgeous UI. We've got a lot of compliments from pros and big traders. It's like this platform is truly a joy to use. We don't want it to feel like a DeFi project. We want it to be as smooth and as usable as anything you'd ever encounter, like a tradfire of a normal broker.
00:40:50
Speaker
So, yeah, we want to be the premier derivatives decks in DeFi. We want to be the premier derivatives decks, frankly, period. And, you know, DeFi is a nice place to start and kind of build that product market fit. And we started with Perpetuals because they obviously have strong PMF and crypto already. But we want to build this to be, you know, tradify instruments like commodities, Forex, gold, indexes, like, you know, letting you trade the S&P or the NASDAQ on chain.
00:41:18
Speaker
So we have some very aggressive plans for what we want to list and what we want to let people trade and Yeah, check us out. If you're a trader of any stripe, we're we're pretty great and I'd put us up against anybody honestly, so Some that sounds cool got some big goals to bring a lot of Yeah, more traditional Stuff like a NASDAQ everything on on chain. Is that is that in the pipeline? Is that? a bit of a dream of yours or are you guys have you've got a plan of how you're actually going to get there and execute that and
00:41:48
Speaker
We definitely are going to get there next to you that it's not it doesn't have concrete steps right now in so far as like
00:41:55
Speaker
We have some other higher priority things we want to ship out first. We want a referral program to be out there. We have a couple other things, or we have an airdrop we need to distribute. But we are actively discussing which indexes we might list if we were going to do that. We're asking some questions from traders and users, hey, which one would you like if this order exists? It's actually not as difficult as it might sound, because an index price is just a composite price that's
00:42:24
Speaker
You just need an Oracle, frankly. And then you can let a market maker make their order book out of it and then let people trade it. So we've listed markets pretty quickly when we found demand for them. And I would expect, I am kind of guessing here, but I would not be surprised at all first to have maybe some more trad-fi related stuff like indexes and what have you within
00:42:46
Speaker
a year or so. I might be even a little too liberal with that. It might be sooner. It would not surprise me if it was sooner, but I can't give a concrete ETA. I'm not quite sure, but it's not that far away. That sounds cool. What are some of the biggest challenges that you face there moving into your role at RabbitX?
00:43:08
Speaker
Because it sounds like a project where you guys want to, as you mentioned, create a really good UI and user experience. So your role has evolved a lot and to get the project out there and obviously involved in a huge amount within the project by the sound of things. What sort of challenges have you faced in your current role and moving into your current role? I mean, the biggest challenge is finding my groove insofar as
00:43:37
Speaker
We're all kind of in this marketing bucket now and I'm one of like three non-technical people on the whole team, maybe four, maybe three and a half, one of the guys. Our CEO Ming does have some technical abilities, but he's not really a dev first and foremost. And so it's like, all right, how are we going to do this? How are you going to make this happen?
00:44:04
Speaker
figure it out, figure out how you're going to provide value. So finding that niche was a little uncomfortable, but it was also really fun.
Personal Growth in Startups
00:44:12
Speaker
I didn't know I could meme as well as I do. I'd never really made them consistent like this, and now I make them all the time, and they're very well received. And now I'm like,
00:44:21
Speaker
That's a skill set I have now, apparently. And then with the writing, I knew I could write reasonably well before, but I've never done the very free flowing, truly like things I find organically interesting in putting them out there.
00:44:38
Speaker
You know, that was a little, I don't know how this is going to work out when I did some of the weird stuff I started writing about initially. And, you know, it's getting that, you know, finding that voice, finding that kind of flow to where you can see something consistently working. You know, you just, you don't know until you try. And that was probably the most challenging part was like,
00:45:01
Speaker
seeing if those things would work and being unsure about it. And also they've been the most rewarding though, too, because I feel like I am a vastly different employee than a vastly different worker, however you want to frame it, like when I first started, because I've grown and learned a lot throughout this whole process of what hits, what doesn't, your own voice and kind of putting your own stuff out there, what skill sets you have that you maybe weren't even aware of.
00:45:28
Speaker
Um, you know, I never viewed myself as creative before, but I guess I am, you know, I genuinely did not think of myself that way at all. So it's, it was cool, like, you know, kind of discovering that about yourself. And it was also challenging, you know, at first too, because it's like, you don't know if you're good at this before you start doing it. So.
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose you just have to give it a go and yeah, as long as you put the effort in and as you said, you write about stuff that you really want to write about, really want to talk about, then your passion comes through, I guess. And also, I feel like when you first start, you don't have to be amazing at it when you first start, right? It's something that evolves over time when you get better with practice. So yeah, I guess that kind of comes from time. Are there any mistakes that you've
00:46:18
Speaker
made that you can attribute some of your biggest learnings to maybe focusing more on the learn from it as opposed to the mistake, obviously, but anything that really stands out to you. You know, like,
00:46:38
Speaker
In the defile vein, I can't think of any like mistake mistakes, frankly. Like, you know, it's funny, like I definitely have gotten much better through iterating and improving. Like I look back at some older stuff or older, like even memes I made. And I'm kind of like, Oh God, I feel, I feel like I'm vastly better than I was like even maybe like four or five months ago. But I'm allowed to call those mistakes or they're not mistakes. They're part of like a development process.
Entering and Thriving in Web3
00:47:04
Speaker
I definitely did get like some bumps and bruises like the corporate world.
00:47:08
Speaker
where, you know, and this is probably why I don't like it as much because, you know, when I deviated from my lane a little bit or when I shared an opinion that no one asked for, like I got, you know, I've had some stern talking to, talking to, talking to at certain positions I've had. And in hindsight, I realized like, hey, you know, you have to know your place, know when you should speak, know when you should keep it to yourself. And like, you know, understand
00:47:36
Speaker
kind of motivations and what people want to see out of you and speak to that. So I guess those are more like web two occurrences though, you know, tradify old economy type jobs where I chalk up to a mistake being a learning experience. In the DeFi world though, I guess I've been lucky that I can't really think of any of those things more just like part of a journey that got me to where I am. So I wouldn't really call those mistakes are just, you know, developing, so to speak.
00:48:04
Speaker
I know that wasn't a terribly useful answer. I'm just thinking out loud from your question. I guess it's probably I would frame it. The bumps and bruises came from the corporate world, frankly, from what I just described, and maybe less so from DeFi. Just a lot of learning in DeFi. Yeah, that's fair enough. That's fair enough. So if there was any advice that you could share that for someone who's looking to come and build a career for themselves in Web3, anything that you'd like to share? Don't be afraid to.
00:48:34
Speaker
Don't underestimate yourself or overestimate others. I've met some people and seen some projects that raise a lot of money and I'm just like, wow, I should not be afraid. Most people just, they're bold, they try, they ask for it.
00:48:53
Speaker
And that goes a really long way. So I mean, if you have something you want to give a go or that concept you want to explore, or even if it's not even a novel concept, say you want to start a DEX or something, when you think you have the business chops and you're sufficiently motivated because you love the space.
00:49:11
Speaker
Don't doubt yourself. Don't be afraid to go out there, test the waters, put out some original thoughts, ideas that hopefully attract like minds. This is a space where it's very much like people respect what you have to say or what you want to accomplish and they don't care that you have a McKinsey background or
00:49:32
Speaker
Where you went to school like they just don't and if you lead with that I think people will respect you I think you'll get less respect like I think you don't have the opposite effect if you lead with the very like credentialism or old economy pedigree focus as Like the you should work with me because you know, I have an IV background or something I don't think you'll attract any of the people that you should want if you lead with that you might get some VC money and you might get some very like
00:50:00
Speaker
LinkedIn type people but like this you're not going to get the true DeFi genuine user and builder you know and yeah it's just a very different ethos and I also think you'll fail to attract a lot of the genuine traders and users as well if you leave with that branding so just it's very meritocratic
00:50:21
Speaker
engage with people, put yourself out there, don't underestimate yourself and actually believe in the space. Understand what's being built here and why it's structurally better. Don't be a tourist. People will be able to pick up on that. I think that's a big one too. That's good advice.
The Potential of Crypto Infrastructure
00:50:41
Speaker
If you could go back to the start of your career, any advice for your younger self?
00:50:47
Speaker
Yeah. Get on Twitter earlier, honestly. I really wish I would have discovered it earlier. If you curate it properly, it's just an amazing tool to just be exposed to new things and information you just would never get to otherwise. Seriously, Twitter is, depending on how you curate it, because it can be just another social network if you're very mundane with it. But if you find the right people and listen to the right stuff,
00:51:17
Speaker
Uh, you know, don't get preoccupied with certain other things. Like it's a, it's a great, great tool. Um, I guess my, my advice, my other stuff too, would be like, stop underestimating yourself. That was a big one that I struggled with personally. You know, don't, don't, don't be, uh, enamored with credentialism or certain pedigrees that nominally suggest that they might be more capable than you. Like that doesn't mean it at all. You know, just go for it. Learn about what you want to.
00:51:45
Speaker
Make sure you understand what you're talking about, but if you do, don't put yourself up against anybody and bet on yourself. Don't be afraid to find the smart people, engage with them. If you think something, it's okay to say it. Don't be too reserved, I guess. Give myself a little pep talk here if I was younger.
00:52:08
Speaker
No, it's good. I always like asking that question just to see what people would say. There'd be a lot of people listening who are just at the start of their careers, maybe thinking some of the things that you've touched upon there. They may be having similar thoughts and things really. So it's nice.
00:52:28
Speaker
I guess, for people to be able to hear someone who is in a position that you're in now, you know, being able to kind of offer them advice and that kind of thing, really. So now I appreciate you sharing. So you mentioned that you got into the crypto space or DeFi space in 2020. So not that long ago, really. Why did you take an interest in Web3 and I guess DeFi specifically?
00:52:57
Speaker
Hmm. So like yes and no, mostly yes. I did get, you know, I had a roommate who was into Bitcoin like when it was like 30 bucks and you know, and then I accepted some like utility payments and Doge a couple months after it came out. So like I was like very much open to crypto, but I wasn't
00:53:19
Speaker
I thought they were just tokens bouncing around and whatever their currencies. I did a thread on the way I cannot stand the word cryptocurrency. It's a misnomer and I think it's deeply misleading and it actually impacted me personally because I didn't think it was being built. It was infrastructure. I thought it was cryptocurrencies, just tokens. And then in 2020,
00:53:41
Speaker
I started seeing what was being built in DeFi with ETH and I came across some yields that I was like, how are you guys doing that? How are the farming? What does that mean? You guys can actually trade. It's like, oh, okay. You're actually swapping on chain. That's definitely a service. That's a broker. I started being exposed a little bit to the business side of what was being built here, the infrastructure, the real value creative
00:54:05
Speaker
you know, core stuff that's not just currencies. Like, I would not be interested in this space, nearly was, it was just currencies. And then I came across a company getting deplatform from AWS, Parler, I think this was actually early 2021. And then I came, someone, I found, like, I just stumbled across on Twitter,
00:54:28
Speaker
Someone mentioned, you know, this is what Filecoin is trying to fix. And I was like, wait, wait, how is the cryptocurrency fixing cloud storage? Like, what are you talking about? And then I was like, oh, my God, like, this is this cloud storage business being built here, too. And then I was just like, full fledged, like, all right, I really need to get involved and understand the space better, because there's obviously a lot of really pertinent and useful stuff being developed here that's clearly paradigm changing. And that was like my real immersive moment.
00:54:57
Speaker
So I've been very crypto friendly and agnostic for quite a while, but it was late 2020 or so where I really started to come across infra and smart contracts and stuff like Filecoin. And before then I was all tech stocks mostly, like in the financial world.
00:55:16
Speaker
So I was very technologically already aligned with what I like to invest in. And when I learned what was being built here, then I was just down the rabbit hole totally. And I just self-educated on all of it and just got really, really immersed in it. But that was my origin story. Was that your original question? Was how I got looped in here around that time? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And to go a little bit deeper, why does that matter so much to you?
DeFi's Economic Models
00:55:40
Speaker
Which part?
00:55:43
Speaker
So you mentioned originally that you thought it was just currencies, and then you started learning about projects like Filecoin, for example, tackling cloud storage, and then you thought, actually, no, it's the infrastructure here that's being built. Why is that interesting for you, that the cryptocurrency side of it necessarily wasn't as interesting?
00:56:05
Speaker
I mean, all those infrastructure plays, which I would view those as infrastructure, they're allowing human interaction and commerce and transactions to occur, and they're completely disintermediated and just a highly superior way to the previous instantiations of how that worked.
00:56:28
Speaker
It's actually magic the more entities you remove out of a supply chain be it financial or whatever like the more values retained by the two parties in that transaction and blockchains disintermediate the middle. And when I saw that like services were being provided, and their permission list or anonymous you can just
00:56:43
Speaker
their peer-to-peer transactions. And so I was like, to me, it was as obvious that's a superior economic and business model as when I learned what Netflix was. And I was like, well, obviously, this is better than Blockbuster. Streaming the thing into your home, clearly, this is a superior economic model. The only thing constraining it is technology. Netflix was always better than Blockbuster, but we had to go to the stores and buy cassettes because we didn't have high-speed internet. But when that became a thing, then it's obviously better.
00:57:11
Speaker
And when I saw the things like smart contracts and DeFi summer and Filecoin.
00:57:18
Speaker
Again, having a very technologically focused investor mindset, I was like, these can be viewed and understood as businesses. There's actual value being provided here. There's a reason why this should be valuable and people are going to use it. That's not just buying a Ponzi. That's not just buying a currency. It moves because the other currencies move, whatever. No disrespect to forex traders, but they're just bouncing around based off of supply demand stuff.
00:57:48
Speaker
There's not commerce happening there, whereas a technology stock or something is trading based off of an intrinsic value or a DCF calculation based off what the company's generating or earning. Currencies are influenced a little by that at the country level, but there's something there that you can value and that you can understand why it's valuable. And when I saw that in DeFi, I was like, wow, okay, this is a
00:58:11
Speaker
this is serious and it's building something that is actually creating intrinsic and innate value for people. And that's really curious and interesting to me. And when I learned that, I was like, this is, then I was like completely bought in, like, this is here to stay unequivocally. The model's obviously better. And it's like ideologically too very aligned with me as well, that it's like, you know, peer to peer transactions. I don't want anyone being involved with what I'm doing. I don't want to have to KYC with you. I don't think it's any of your business, right? It's like all of those ideological things I'm also super aligned with personally. So,
00:58:39
Speaker
you blend all that together and I was like, yeah, I'm sold. That sounds good. That sounds good. And do you think, you mentioned there around the peer to peer transactions and how the KYC is known, you don't necessarily want people kind of knowing what you're doing and that kind of thing. Do you think that will change as more regulation and stuff comes into the space over the next couple of years? How do you see that working? Do you have an opinion on it?
00:59:06
Speaker
So there will definitely be a spectrum of the privacy, no KYC type stuff. Just like there's a spectrum of decentralization. It is kind of a meme word because frankly, almost nothing is really purely decentralized yet except like Bitcoin or Ethereum, frankly. Even all layer twos are basically centralized right now. I don't want to go too much into tangents. I know I'm proud of those.
00:59:36
Speaker
But oh, it's your question, like, do I think that will change? I think there will definitely be services that will have you KYC, will have you docs. They're very compliant. They're the kind of things that BlackRock or institutions will feel comfortable using. And they'll probably be the things that a lot of normies will be fine using too, because I don't think normies necessarily are all about the
01:00:02
Speaker
you know, DeFi, anarcho-capitalism, kind of ethos of, this is none of your business. I'm not saying anymore. You know, like, they're generally okay. Like, hey, you can scan my palm and I just bought something. Like, they're the kind of person who will wear a chip. They're the kind of person who are fine sharing everything they want with people. And they just want to service it's cheap and effective. You know, that only exists for them too. And it's fine. Like, it should. Like, it does need to be this very, this Puritan. I, you know, we should be careful to not be Puritans about this.
01:00:29
Speaker
Wish you know the thing will exist for guys like me who really wanted to be like this hardcore cypherpunk thing And then also just for your mother who just is happy that it's cheaper and easier for her to send money this way Also great, you know, I don't think regulations will change That some of those more cypherpunk products continue to stay offered I don't think they can stop that
01:00:53
Speaker
they'll try, but the very nature of this, it's just, you know, it'll definitely exist. I just think it'll exist in many different forms for different people depending on their goals and their political, I guess, motivations or beliefs. And, you know, you might have to move to other places if you want to use certain
01:01:10
Speaker
more pure instantiations of DFI. That wouldn't surprise me at all, especially in the United States. So I don't want to go into too much with that, but yeah, unless you want me to. But yeah, I definitely think there will be many different ways to do DFI and it will vary a lot on the centralization front and on the permissionless, no KYC front too.
01:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I definitely see there being varieties of DeFi in the future.
Scalability and Innovation in Web3
01:01:42
Speaker
I think it's about my parents, for example, and they don't necessarily mind what their technology is built on. As long as the application works and it functions, it does everything they need it to do, then they don't really know that it's on blockchain and they don't know that it's in the cloud or they just don't necessarily know or care, I suppose. But I guess I'll always be
01:02:02
Speaker
the arm to the Web3 space that really does care about the decentralization in the mission and that kind of stick it to the man type ethos around it. But I guess there needs to almost be that kind of equilibrium between the two because otherwise we won't be able to get more and more people into the Web3 space and the whole adoption side of things won't happen because
01:02:29
Speaker
yeah because of the ethos that's within it or whatever it might be so yeah be an interesting place to be over the next five ten years and to see kind of how it how it develops and there'll be plenty of challenges along the way I would have thought yeah are you is there anything that you would change about the web3 space at the moment
01:02:54
Speaker
No, not really. Like, I mean, I guess if I could, what I would do, you know, I see a lot of, like, OGs and very serious, you know, people in the space that are not Taurus and have been around for a bit. And they obsess over, like, Pepecoin and some of the obvious Ponzi's and, like, silly things.
01:03:15
Speaker
Like, you know, the thing is, at this point, they're obviously silly. Like, we know the silly things are silly. We've seen the patterns now. No one's getting really duped by this, right? Like, people know they're playing musical chairs.
01:03:27
Speaker
And it bothers me when I see even some serious people just hyperfixating on the fluff and nonsense and not on the serious substance of stuff that's being built here. And my advice, if I could change is to have these serious people who I can tell believe in the space. ChainlinkOn is a well-known one. I've actually had some debates with him on Twitter about this, where I'm like, dude, you see this space in its proper gestation cycle.
01:03:55
Speaker
All technologies, especially ones that have a lot of value that's being created, initially they're made for fluffy nonsense that doesn't seem very valuable. The internet being an example I always like to go to, it was mostly for porn. It was mostly like a place where scammy people did stuff for drug dealers and the black market.
01:04:16
Speaker
first came about and then like, you know, porn people and like with a texture of the text. So it's like it initially then you know, had people like Paul Krugman saying the internet's gonna be like the fax machine, it's useless. And at the time, like if you looked at for just all it was making right then and there, yeah, if you're like, I look six months out into the future kind of guy, that's all you would see. But anybody who had like an understanding of like, oh wait, this is a network of everybody, like clearly this will have other value ads besides email and porn.
01:04:44
Speaker
you wanted to keep building on the internet because you saw it worldwide. I feel like people are incredibly myopic in this space where they're just fixated on silly little games and nonsense is like being the only thing this cannon ever will be. And it's a very normal part of a gestation cycle for a new technology. And, you know, especially because we're building
01:05:05
Speaker
anonymous, permissionless, access to financial infrastructure and trading. There's a lot of value to be captured here and you can't gate keep anybody. That's the fucking core of what we're doing here, right? So who is that going to attract? Who are some of the most biggest risk takers you've ever known? Criminals, right? Criminals are very risk seeking and they want to make money. So like obviously we're going to have some scam artists and unsavory people here.
01:05:31
Speaker
Like, and I just encourage people to view this in the context of what's being built. One, we should attract those type of people because frankly, if they weren't being drawn to us, it means we're not making anything of value here. And that would be a little concerning. Like, it's going to attract those type of people with just the nature of what it is. And as we foster more stability and, you know,
01:05:48
Speaker
create scalable products that people understand how to use and gain access to, that goes away. It doesn't even fully go away. It gets diluted out. It stops being the thing you see so much. It stops being so visible, and you start seeing the more genuine use here. And I would continue to even see that now, but just curate your feed better. Stop following
01:06:08
Speaker
the shit corners and the silly kind of stuff that's going on here it's fine to see it but like stop painting this fallacy of composition where you think that's how it's being built here it's just not like it's really not i say this is someone who's like working on a serious project i see a lot of serious debt projects and yield curved stuff and just all kinds of cool things where it's like i'm glad we're cultivating this and yeah i guess if i could change anything this space it would be like to change people's
01:06:35
Speaker
just preoccupation with the silly stuff that's really noisy and visible and just start trying to go out of your way to find the credible, cool stuff that's being built that has real value and view this space through the proper developmental cycle that all technologies go through and that is not unique to us. We did not invent scams. We did not invent Ponzi's. These have existed well before DeFi, though it's just well before. They're just instantiating themselves here because we're building a new financial framework and
01:07:02
Speaker
you know, clearly some stuff is going to create it like that. So just contextualize, contextualize and stop obsessing with with, you know, useless stuff. No, I like that. I like that. I just hope that because a lot of a lot of the stuff that you hear about in the mainstream media about Web3 and crypto and this kind of stuff is is then focusing on scams and meme coins and pump and dumps and this kind of stuff. Right. I just hope that that side of it doesn't
01:07:31
Speaker
doesn't downgrade the technology and the underlying kind of idea and ethos behind the space. And I guess that goes back to what you're saying. If you get really serious people within the space focusing so much on those meme side of it, then it kind of gives
01:07:49
Speaker
gives oxygen right to the flame of the meme and silly side of it when there is such a serious and cool underlying product and underlying technology that's being built. Yeah, totally. That's why I hold the builders and the OGs to a higher level because if CNBC wants to comment on a bridge hack or whatever silliness is being
01:08:12
Speaker
I expect normies to do that because it's easy to understand. They want to knock us for obvious reasons. I expect them to be adversarial and not useful and effectively counterproductive always for us, whatever. I have no standards or expectations for the Bloomberg CNBC tier of MSM reporter coverage of us. It's whatever. But I do get annoyed when I see real
01:08:37
Speaker
creators and people and traders who are saying that, I'm like, all right, no, you know better. You seriously need to stop following friend tech and the goofy stuff. They're the ones who upset me actually because I actually have some expectations of them because I know they can see what's going on if they try. I just feel like it's an effort thing or just it's a lazy thing. You're following silly coins and stuff, so you just act like that's all that there is. I'm like, you should know better. I don't expect CNBC to know better. I do expect you to know better.
01:09:08
Speaker
No, I tend to agree, to be honest. So in your opinion then, are there any other challenges that you think needs to be overcome before we can take blockchain or before blockchain does become more mainstream? I think it's just basic scalability and accessibility. Going from a brokerage to on-chain,
01:09:39
Speaker
is is understandably cumbersome still for like people who aren't like naturally interested in the space like they don't you know self custody is also something that's rife with like a bunch of
01:09:50
Speaker
issues, especially for people who don't really care, you know, like they just more want their assets to be safe, you know, stuff like account obstruction. I think I'll fix a lot of that to where if you lose like your keys or, you know, you can't get hacked because there's a multi-sig happening there and a company can actually recover it.
01:10:10
Speaker
You know, you're, you're giving a bit of a trade off there with the pure defy ethos, but that's okay. Like again, not everyone's going to be purely on that. So I think making the self custody, uh, less onerous and risky will be a big one. Um, scalability insofar as it's just being really cheap, uh, to use and quick, uh, layer twos are definitely working towards that and it'll only get better. It just needs to keep, you know, keep developing and just general ease of use, you know, like.
01:10:40
Speaker
Once you're bridged out or once you withdraw from like a broker on chain, it should just be a very intuitive experience for people and we're definitely not there yet.
01:10:48
Speaker
So I just think having it be easy, navigatable, scalable and cheap, and having the use of it be not right for possible, you know, getting fished or scammed so easily. If you click a link, we can't have people losing every, you know, their whole wallet if they click a phishing link, right? Like it's just, we need to figure out how to, you know, there's going to be some trade-offs there with like self-custing and
Future Endeavors and Opportunities
01:11:12
Speaker
that's fine. I think a lot of people will probably be okay with that.
01:11:14
Speaker
Um, I personally won't be, but I think the norm is well, and that's fine. And we need to just make it so they don't lose everything with one button click and can, can navigate the space relatively easily without feeling lost or intimidated.
01:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And if you weren't at RabbitX and weren't doing what you're doing, is there any particular challenge that if you had unlimited pot of money, unlimited resources, time, whatever it might be, any particular challenge that you'd say, right, I'd love to have a go at solving this? Yeah.
01:11:50
Speaker
Debt and yield curves in general are a really curious one for me. On a personal level, this is probably the most successful series I've done as the one on the Fed, on the Federal Reserve. It's not a normal series. There's a reason why it's been
01:12:08
Speaker
I take a very aggressive approach like undermining a lot of the viewpoints people have on them and that they're not nearly as impactful as they're made out to be. They're not even close. And that's really kind of made me deeply
01:12:23
Speaker
Maybe really respect like yield curves and prices cost of money and how debt works and That's really the underpinning. I think of any major financial system is you need to people need people to be able to access like stable credit and you know emphasis on stable defies very volatile right now and we mostly have is like money market funds or money market rates being used to You know let people borrow against which you can't do that to borrow to invest in a capital asset
01:12:53
Speaker
Right? You can't, you cannot, right now we have, this is, I actually do a thread on this. The only borrows we have right now are financiers, which is to say you borrow to borrow again, to then invest it, to then loop it. You know, you're just, you're leveraging yourself basically. You're just financializing everything and yield farming or, you know, you're just being a hedge fund about it, right? You're just, that's a financier to me.
01:13:16
Speaker
Whereas you don't have economic borrowing happening where people are borrowing money to buy a home or to make a capital investment in the real world. When we're able to provide that, that's the thing I think that takes us to the promised land. And I'd be very interested in building stuff that focused on getting the enforcement of under collateralized borrowing.
01:13:39
Speaker
and getting the frameworks made to have that really work. I don't think that's something that actually just purely in the digital space. I think there has to be some real world angles from that. I've actually been thinking about that a lot later. That would be curious to me. That would actually something I really like, just yield curves, term structure, and under collateralized debt, I think are huge, huge ones that we need to get down well. And I think they're very interesting too on a personal level.
01:14:09
Speaker
That's cool. Well, someone needs to build it. So if it doesn't exist, do you know what they say? If it doesn't exist, you've got to build it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you ever want to kind of found your own project and have a go at building it? Oh, totally. If there's anything that's been really motivating, helping building Rabbidex and seeing it from the ground up, it's like how much we're all kind of figuring things out together in real time.
01:14:38
Speaker
None of us, no one's had an exit here before on this team. I think even Ming, our CEO, I think he's a first-time founder and he's done a great job. He's been very structured and organized about stuff, very pragmatic, smart. I loved working with him and we've figured stuff out together.
01:14:59
Speaker
that neither of us really knew, you know, and we just kind of got there and it's been very like, uh, confidence inspiring to me to like, when you see that, that it's not like this mythical, magical thing to build something great. You just have to be structured about an organized, what have you. So, um, yeah, I, I'd love to, you know, I have no intention at all to leave a rabbit right now. Like I'd love what I'm doing. I love the team I'm with, but I definitely.
01:15:21
Speaker
it's definitely motivating for me too is like, you know, whenever the next step comes along, I am much more empowered now to like believe in myself, frankly. They're like, no, I really, you know, building a project, founding something. It's definitely something I'm interested in. And who knows when that'll happen, but this has been a, it's been a cool byproduct of working around it.
01:15:40
Speaker
something to watch for the future. I'll be keeping a close eye for that day when that happens. So, Dimitri, if you could sum up your advice that you're giving today, which, to be honest, you've talked through a lot, and I think people will be able to take a huge amount from the conversation. If you could summarise, is there any advice that you could give to people
01:16:03
Speaker
if they might be looking to follow in your footsteps. So they're in the Web 2 space, they're looking to move into Web 3. They love the idea of working on a project they're passionate about. They're trying to find their place in the Web 3 space. Any advice you could give if they're looking to almost follow in your footsteps?
01:16:24
Speaker
You know, put yourself out there, which again is consistent I think with some other stuff I've said. But you know, use some firmware, more concrete guidance there. Use the crypto job boards. Crypto jobs list is how I got brought to Strips in Rabbit.
01:16:43
Speaker
Those native job boards are really great. Projects are looking at those applications. I had a huge amount of success with AngelList when I was in the startup world. Phenomenal resource. I was able to consistently get interviews every week, multiple ones from that. I didn't do a lot of applying crypto because I was fortunate to
01:17:04
Speaker
get some interactions pretty quickly. But the job boards and crypto jobs list and these other ones, they're great spots. These company, these DeFi products are putting their needs out there. And even if there's not anything specifically that you can be used for, the job I applied for, I knew I really wasn't the best fit for. It was like a marketing role that, I mean, I could do, but it wasn't, it wouldn't be the best use of my background. And I knew that and I applied and I was like, hey, listen,
01:17:32
Speaker
Let's talk about other stuff too, in addition to this. I have a very broad, generous background. I use my resume. And it started a dialogue, and there you go. So it's like, keep in mind that job descriptions are ideal. And you can tell me if you agree with this even. Job descriptions are kind of the ideal of what the company would like, but they're very much open to
01:17:55
Speaker
What do you got for me? You know, I would describe it. If I could analogize it to anything, it would be like, you know, if you would ask a woman what her ideal boyfriend would be like, well, he's six foot four. He makes $400,000 a year. He's really athletic. He's very handsome. He can play at least one musical instrument, right? She, of course, she has this ideal.
01:18:12
Speaker
But, you know, she's also realistic. Like if she understands, if not quite that guy comes her way, you might have other tangibles that, you know, she'll be interested as well. So like view a job description that way as kind of like the ideal. And but don't, don't be afraid to still apply for it, because you never know. And you'd be surprised, especially in this space, how you might find something that maybe it wasn't there to begin with. So that's good, really, really good advice.
01:18:39
Speaker
Well, Demetri, thank you very much for taking the time to have a conversation with me today. I really enjoyed it. You shared some really good insights, some really good advice. Yeah, I find it really useful to understand your journey, to be honest. I think it's really cool. You obviously found a project that you know you're really passionate about. You're really passionate about the DeFi space. So yeah, thank you very much for taking the time to talk it through with me.
01:19:03
Speaker
If people listening or watching want to get in touch with you, I'm guessing Twitter is the best place to drop me a tweet at bat the bunny. And they can get in touch with you there if they have any extra questions or anything like that. Yeah, totally. Twitter is the place to be. Send me a DM. I have DMs open. You can also hop into our Discord. That link is in my Twitter profile. And you can message me there.
01:19:30
Speaker
Ticket, DM as well, Telegram, I'm all on Telegram under the same handle, back to Bunny. So any of those are good by me, I'm on all of them every day and yeah, don't be shy to say hi, reach out, whatever, it's always cool to meet new people and you never know how things develop, so. Great stuff, great stuff. Well, yeah, thank you very much for your time and I'll speak to you soon. My pleasure, Jack. Thanks for having me on.