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How to be a CEO in Web3 with David Dobrovitsky, CEO of FUNToken
32 Plays7 months ago
In this episode, I spoke with David Dobrovitsky CEO of FUNToken.
David talks us through his career journey and how he moved from being a musician to becoming a founder and CEO. David shared his thoughts on what it means to be a successful CEO and the main skills he’s learned that have helped him throughout his career. David talks about why he took an interest in Web3 and Blockchain plus the expectations of the industry and what it’s like working in Web3.
Behind The Blockchain is a series of conversations with leaders who have built successful products, teams and careers in Web3. You will get a chance to discover how successful individuals were able to accomplish their career objectives, the skills they have acquired, the mistakes and difficulties they encountered, and the advice they can offer you to help you reach your career aspirations.
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Transcript
Introduction to David Dobrovitsky and Fun Token
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Behind the Blockchain podcast. Today, I'm joined by David Dobrovitsky, CEO of Fun Token. David, welcome to the show. How are you? Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for joining me. so ah So David, for people who don't know who you are, could you introduce yourself, please? Sure. So I am the CEO of a project called Fun Token. um Fun Token is a and kind of like an OG project that is seven years old on an Ethereum blockchain. It was initially created for gambling casinos and is now venturing into Gamify. um Before this, I was a founder and CEO of an infrastructure project called called Glitter Finance.
00:00:50
Speaker
um And I led that project for four three years. And before that, I was a contributor, a core contributor to a couple of DeFi protocols. I was a CBDO in a marketing development agency. And then before that, I worked kind of in a highly engineered cable sector in the United States. I've also worked with startups. So I actually helped startups get introductions to people that would help them.
David's Career Journey: From Musician to CEO
00:01:20
Speaker
um And yeah, and before that I was a musician, actually. So it's been a pretty long journey, but mostly and after music, it was mostly business development, lead generation, and eventually grew into business operations and being a CEO now several times.
00:01:40
Speaker
That's cool. Sounds like you've done all sorts of stuff ah during um during your career. yeah but ah What made you want to move away from being a musician? I can imagine that's quite a few people's like dream job, right? um Yeah, I mean, so I started as a kind of a prodigy at five years old. I was a classical violinist until the age of 27. Later in life, I started to really be interested in other things, you know, um because I guess I started so early and in life, I just kind of grew out of it and wanted to settle down, you know, have a family and and maybe do something
00:02:20
Speaker
that I felt was a little bit more in line when my ah you know with how I felt and in kind of the next stage of my life. So ah that's the thing, when you start really early, you you kind of grow out of things. Yeah, yeah that's fair enough. and And at what point through that journey did you initially take an interest in wanting to become an entrepreneur? Because you mentioned that you founded your own project, Glitter, ah before. um yeah talking Talk me through it. So around the age of 22, when I was still doing music, I couldn of began ah got confronted with the very stark reality that I had to move my own career that no, nobody was going to come in and and magically, you know, make my career happen. And at that point, you know, we started to kind of, you know, I started to go to, to see that, okay, I need to know marketing. I need to know cold calling. I need to know business development. I need to know how to call a presenter and get myself out there.
00:03:14
Speaker
And I need to know how to create a website or at least tell somebody how to make it for me, you know, and art is art, but then, you know, you you're're you're confronted with the reality of the world. And so at the time when I was studying at the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, it was a really good school and still is, and they had a music entrepreneurship program. program This was when I was 19 to 21. And I kind of learned all of these different skills um that I already was interested in and was learning anyway. um And so when I came out of college, I started to really kind of arrange my own life and my own career. And and as an entrepreneur already then, just being ah an entrepreneur who was also a musician. um And so that kind of eventually progressed into where I felt like I wanted to get into tech because I was always very very intrigued and interested in technology.
00:04:05
Speaker
um And, you know, obviously, I was also very interested in startups. um You know, the the whole musician thing, there's a lot of kind of entrepreneurial startup feeling to it because you're kind of moving your yourself, your career, your brand. um And so it played really well into, you know, kind of technology, which I have, I guess, a kind of, um I'm very interested in it, you know, I have a predisposition for technology to understand technology.
Entrepreneurial Shift: Diving into Blockchain
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah. And so basically I got into startups um and I was really, really interested in startups from the very beginning. um And so as my career progressed, eventually I got into blockchain and I guess all of that culminated into being an entrepreneur and founder of my own startup eventually, um which you know ah happened. I founded this my my startup in July 2021. And so really from that point on, it was it was me being a startup entrepreneur.
00:05:03
Speaker
I bet that was a crazy ride. Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's cool though. You know, it's cool to kind of progress and and grow and, you know, I mean, you you have to change as you, as you, as you grow and become older. And that's kind of what happened. that's That's cool. and And when you started your career, maybe um maybe after you you're a musician, you kind of reinvented yourself, like I guess, and and um looked at where you wanted to go. Did you always know that you wanted to be you know a CEO of a business running ah you know a large company? like Was that your end goal? or you know Were you just giving things a try and just kind of seeing what worked?
00:05:42
Speaker
I kind of knew I always felt like a leader. I felt like if I am putting into a leadership role, I can do very well. um I kind of felt comfortable making decisions. um And I felt comfortable kind of creating a system that works. And I felt and you know, whether that was in within music or eventually tech or corporate and eventually blockchain. that never really changed that just it's a quality that I had. And I kind of knew that if I don't fully allow that out, I won't be comfortable, you know, and obviously, as you get older, you start to know yourself a little bit better. So by the time that I reached the the stage where I could have my own startup, I knew that being a CEO was very much something I felt comfortable doing. Okay.
00:06:30
Speaker
And being a CEO is, you know, it's a lot of people's career aspirations, right? So reach that that point in a business yeah and and everything. Are there any notable things that you've learned throughout your journey and and throughout your life career, which you think have really helped you to achieve that position?
Leadership Insights and Team Building
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stuff, you know, um obviously, you know, one thing that you learn is do you learn to listen? To you learn to listen to other people You learn to be patient um You learn to not act through a reaction but through Settling and then acting from a kind of a really like a peaceful internal state You know one of the things that you always think about as as ah as a leader As a CEO is you never want to act out of fear, you know, you never want to act out of anxiety or stress
00:07:29
Speaker
So whatever decisions we make, the best thing to do is always to try to be calm. And then you you get this feeling where you can like assess things and you can come from there you you can come from a place that where you can make better decisions. So I think that that was the main main thing that I learned. um Other things that I learned is always, always try to find the people that are capable of doing what you what you can't, you know? um You never, you always want to have a staff where there are people that are smarter than you doing things that you don't know. And so you are not doing everything yourself.
00:08:10
Speaker
And it's not about delegation because you can just as easily delegate to somebody who's not not necessarily graded what they're doing, just because they're in that position. So it's ah it's a kind of a more fine-tuned approach. You have to have people that are capable, you have to see that they're capable, and then you have to know when to give them that um ability to own the process or a piece of a process. you know and so And that's really what I think works effectively. That's how you create create agile organizations. when you have people who are really good at specific areas that maybe you're not the best at, but they can really own the process. They like doing it. And that's when you get the the best results. Did you find it tricky too?
00:08:56
Speaker
ah to give up ownership of of certain parts of the job and kind of give that trust into people. Because I know when I when i stepped into, ah I wasn't the CEO of of the business at the time, but but stepped into a management position having to give up ownership of certain parts of the job to people who I'd hired and obviously I'd hired them for a reason. um it was It was tricky thing to kind of to go through in in your head really to think, you know, I'm comfortable i' comfortable giving away ownership of this. I trust this person. like It was definitely a process to go through. Did you did you find that? Yeah, I mean, you know, especially early on in in glitter, when I first founded it, I wanted to do everything myself. I wanted like really strong control, control over everything. Eventually, you kind of find that, look, um I may know marketing, and I know marketing very well, because I've been doing marketing for a very long time. But I'm not a marketing
00:09:54
Speaker
only specialist. There are marketing people who who only do that. can i give them Can I delegate control to those people? Absolutely. Why wouldn't I? it It would be incredibly stupid of me not to because i mean that's that's what they're it's what they do for a living. and at At some point, you start to go, okay, what is good for the business? like Not for the ego, not not for me to feel safe, but just for the business. Does it make sense? I think, again, if you when you when you start to assess from a complex, if you see somebody that truly is really good at what they do,
00:10:29
Speaker
Um, and I think it also helped me because, you know, literally is, was, or it's kind of still exists, but there's a small business. When you're, when you're running a small business, you have a finite amount of energy and resources. And so in that state, you really are forced to evaluate from like a cooler head, um, and try to become wiser at what you're doing. And so given the conditions, you start to figure out that like, yeah, okay, if this is a great person and they really know what they're doing, it's probably for the best of everybody for me to delegate to them um and and try to get the maximum of their knowledge in the area.
00:11:17
Speaker
For
Comparing Leadership Roles at Glitter and Fun Token
00:11:18
Speaker
sure. And have you noticed anything different from being CEO and and running glitter to now ah becoming CEO at Fun Token? Is there much difference between between the two, between your mindset, between your approach? Well, I mean, to be honest with you, the same baseline principles apply, you know? I mean, the the the principles are you have to make decisions from a complex where you can have enough time and space to assess properly. um You have to be able to pick people who are capable um because you know maybe in a larger organization it's easier to you know for for for sometimes for people that may not necessarily be always the absolute highest caliber in what they what they do to kind of cruise.
00:12:09
Speaker
But at the end of the day, even in a large organization, when somebody is not necessarily the perfect fit for that job, it does affect organization long term. Because what you start to get is much larger cycles of execution, um or execution that just is kind of fumbled, ah kind of like institutionalized stuff, you know. And so the basic principles that you learn in a small business very much apply in a large business. The only difference is how many layers does an institution or a large business have where you're able to make the decision that will help that institution or that large company? Like, what is the process that you have to go through? That's really what the change is. Because, you know, in a small business, I want something, I get it done. That's my decision. it's it's so it's It's done. I'm the owner.
00:13:03
Speaker
When you're dealing with a multinational company, it's it's very different and you have to be able to communicate why certain things are important to other decision makers that you're working collaboratively with. And that's important and that collaboration and you know that teamwork is really important. So you have to kind of a allow war um for the time and the space for decisions to take place. But ultimately speaking, the baseline never really changes. You know you need capable people. You need to be able to delegate to them effectively. You need to be able to pass decisions through and make them in a calm way so that you're not making rash decisions. That's the baseline. and then
00:13:47
Speaker
you have to be able to kind of work with the larger structure of a multinational business. Yeah, that makes sense. And this might be quite a tricky question to answer just because I think it will vary quite a lot. But can you talk us through the day in the life of a CEO?
00:14:09
Speaker
um ah Well, obviously, it it varies whether you're running a startup or whether you're running a or or whether you are responsible, let's say, for ah a business that has a presence in you know internationally and in large-scale corporate structure. um But the general thing is you a lot of the day is spent planning and observing and seeing how the processes that you put in place work and how they operate. And a lot of the day spent analyzing where the deficiencies are in execution, in ah reaching the public,
00:14:47
Speaker
i you know I always think that like ah you know my wife says something that I really believe in and I think she really gets it. She said, the the the job of the CEO is to always focus on the end user. that's really That's really what you do. You take a product and it's all about thinking, how can that product reach the end user effectively? you know, so that the end user really connects to that product. So it's not necessarily to set up the all of the internal processes. Now you have to do that. You you have to set it up. um Sometimes you're blessed with an amazing COO and that person can help you with that um and with operations. But sometimes you don't. And sometimes if you if you're the CEO, if you're responsible for setting up a a lot of the internal processes, then that's what you do.
00:15:35
Speaker
um So I would say half the day spent with an analysis of of what works and what doesn't and tweaking the process until it becomes seamless. And ideally speaking, when you really build everything up well, you know you no longer you know have to worry about a lot of that and the business starts to run itself. And really that's what it should be doing. You're kind of like a mechanic getting this machine to work well so that you don't have to constantly fix it. But yeah then the other half of the day is all about how are we delivering this process or how is this process delivering the product effectively to the end user? How is it connecting? Is it connecting in a way that allows you to grow the way that you want to grow? And so I would say these are the two kind of the two halves of of being a CEO. That's great insight.
00:16:31
Speaker
Um, is there anything that you, that surprised you or any challenges that you really weren't expecting when you became a CEO for the first time? That's anything that springs to mind. I mean, I think that the main, I want to call them surprises, but I would say you're always dealing with human nature, you know, and in all of it's good and in all of it's bad and they're both sides. And that's kind of like what the challenge is. You're dealing with egos, you're dealing with um eccentricities, you're dealing with opinions, you're dealing with the end users also have bringing that to you. And so, you know ah ah realistically speaking, that's the difficult part is that you you know you're dealing with people.
00:17:22
Speaker
um I think what I wasn't prepared for the first time around was dealing with actual end users ah with and specifically, and this is very specific with crypto, because obviously if you're the CEO of Siemens, the public never sees you for the most part, unless you're attending Davos or something like that. Nobody knows who you are. You know, I mean, so I mean, you're you're dealing with the organization, you're thinking about the end user, but if you're dealing with, if you're working in the web three, it's such an end user centric sector. you're literally constantly dealing with anons, you're dealing with traders, you're dealing with institutional investors, you're dealing with exchanges, you're constantly in the public eye. And and so that is complicated because in so in essence, you have to be not just a really good at business and really good at strategy, but you also have to be a really good statesman.
00:18:18
Speaker
in a way. um And so that's a completely, I mean Web3 is, that's why I think and to a large extent Web3 is one of the hardest sectors because there is that really strong element of constantly dealing with the the the people that um actually use
Challenges in Web3 Leadership
00:18:37
Speaker
your product. They may not be happy with you for whatever reason. And as we know, A person in in in a vacuum ah can make up their mind. And if one person makes up their mind, then you know other people may eventually make up their mind too, and they may influence those people. Then and you have to you have a whole you know kind of situation that you have to resolve. Very often, a CEO in the sector may not not be present in these situations.
00:19:02
Speaker
you know what I mean? Like, yes, you can send your community manager to talk to the people, you can send your community manager to do whatever. But at the end of the day, like you, they will want your opinion, they will want your input. And then you basically have a situation where you have to draw the line of, okay, where am I comfortable talking to them and where am I not? You know, so there's a lot to it. There's a huge, huge, enormous element of being able to socially connect with the end users and interact with them appropriately where you're still comfortable. You still have your space, but at the same time, they feel like you're there and you're not just passing things off to people underneath you, which gives kind of a validity to your, your project, you know,
00:19:50
Speaker
And so that I think that that element very much is missing um from much of from many other sectors. you know They don't have to deal with this kind of thing situation, basically. Yeah. It's a big added pressure, isn't it? When you're building something so publicly and openly that, you know, if you have a large community of hundred, 200, 300,000 people in telegram or discord groups and this kind of stuff. Um, yeah, it's a lot of pressure for the team, not just for the CEO, but also if you're an engineering team, for example, and people haven't heard updates for a little while and you know, they're putting loads of pressure on. Um, yeah, I can imagine it's, it's a tricky place to be. And quite and difficult thing to get your head around.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, in a way it's cool. I think that's where music helped me. you know When you go and you perform a Carnegie Hall for like three three three to 6,000 people, um it's not as difficult to address you know five thousand a group of 5,000 anons. you know It really isn't because you've been in the in that. So I guess in a way, my earlier career really prepared me for where I am not right now because I was used to interacting with large amounts of people all of them who have an opinion and and who you cannot just disregard as, you know, whatever, you know. So thank you, music. thank
00:21:16
Speaker
So why why did you take an interest in Web3 and Blockchain Initiate? I was working as a a client development manager in a multinational um highly engineered cable um you know um company. that later became a division of another company, oh which was much bigger. um We were developing the kind of cables that are used in e you know for EV charging and for like tanks and for autonomous vehicles and stuff like that. So I was basically kind of trying to sell to Tesla and Google and Amazon. And I was also directing the on the ground because I was an inside sales guy at the time.
00:22:00
Speaker
like a highly sought after in the Boston area. And I was directing a lot of the um on the ground BDs, basically collaborating with them, getting the leads. And at some point, basically, there was just like large layoffs. um There was nothing that I specifically did. It was just an American industrial sector is very volatile. A lot of people got laid off. I was one of them. And I just genuinely couldn't find um a job that matched my old salary and what I wanted. and you know Because I was very deep in the in ah startup and high-tech sector um in that old job. So I really wanted to get back into that. i there was There were no opportunities. so at some point i
00:22:45
Speaker
decided to um you know kind of put myself out there on different um in different forums and in different job searching agent engines and and internationally as well. And it just happened that you know a company reached out that really they were Eastern European. They really wanted to sell in the English speaking world. um'm I'm bilingual with Russian. um They really wanted to connect to American but and English-speaking public in general. and so um you know it It was just ah a good fit. I actually didn't fully know what blockchain was about at the time. For me, it was just a job. you know like
00:23:27
Speaker
Um, they wanted, uh, they wanted something and I had it and that was specifically the ability to speak English, like a native speaker. Um, and so once I got into it, I, for the first few days, I really struggled to understand what the hell it was. Um, because I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's software, it's a satiric, it's a little different than manufacturing cable, you know? You can touch a cable. You can understand what what it does. You can see the layers. You can see the copper and and all of the stuff and you can see how it fits. And you can talk to the engineer and blockchain isn't like that. Everything is remote and it's difficult to get, you know, you can connect to an engineer or a developer, but at the end of the day, you know, you still kind of have to get it.
00:24:08
Speaker
And it was a very funny situation. I actually asked my wife to go online, and read about blockchain, tell me what the hell, what the hell it means. Cause I was, i I couldn't get it. I was kind of stressed out and I had this job and I had to start. I was a CVDO. I had to deliver leads, you know, and, and really start to build a network. And I wasn't fully sure. And so eventually she kind of translated it for me. Uh, no, not literally. And you know, she read it, she got it. She told me I, I came, uh, I was able to come down and. Yeah, as I started, I eventually figured it out you know and and it became very clear the more I got into it. I started to really understand it. I started to get the use cases um and I guess you you could say this is how I got into it. you know It was a kind of a situation where
00:24:55
Speaker
blockchain was the only high tech sector at the time where I could find a job, you know, um for the strange reason that I'm bilingual, um you know, I lived in the United States my whole life. So my English is more or less so that of a native person. And so that's where the job was. And eventually I got it, and I started to like it. And that's kind of how I ended up in the sector. And what keeps you here?
00:25:22
Speaker
Um, so first of all, I really liked the fact that, and I still like the fact that, you know, and within blockchain, blockchain presents the easiest way to raise as a startup, um, due to various innovations. Um, as somebody who's like very much a startup or like, I love the idea that you could have the ability to raise capital. and quickly implemented towards building something. And obviously, when you're building software, it's much in this in a way, it's much more effective and also easier than building something where you have to manufacture it. So that already creates a really kind of strong ah incentive to stay if you're trying to build something that is you know that that kind of has an impact. The other part of it is,
00:26:15
Speaker
that I like the idea that ah specific things within Web3 like DeFi really democratize money and the fact that you have this ability for just anybody from anywhere to start investing, getting your return, and you know they're in control over their own finances. The blockchain itself in a way is almost like can be used as your your own kind of bank, and yet it's also very transparent. So I would say that these two elements, you know and then of course being on on the cutting edge, these two elements are what really kept me in it and kept my attention. It is the fact that you could raise in an effective way and really put that capital towards building right away. And that was the atmosphere and very much still is. And then the second part is that you're democratizing money. You can make a real,
00:27:14
Speaker
ah impact, you know, and within specific sectors in Web3 like DeFi, there's still very much an atmosphere of we're built like, it's almost like the old school, like computer situation, when they were building a Mac in their garage, you know, that's kind of like how A lot of DeFi felt and I was really attracted to it because I love the idea that just entrepreneurs, visionaries, um people who are kind of just they have ideas and they have this juice to implement stuff.
00:27:46
Speaker
um that they are given this opportunity to not necessarily, you know, go to huge VCs and have to, you know, kind of really beg them for money and and make sure that you hit all of the little check marks for them to invest in you. But you can very much get capital and then you can build something out of your garage, if you want to call it, you know. and that ah you know that you have all of these teams dispersed and remote and this global community comes together and they put something out and that something can have a huge impact. So this kind of situation where where it's lean, it's effective, it's remote, there is a way to make a real change and you're working towards something that really attracts attracts me, attracted me and I'm still interested in it.
00:28:39
Speaker
Nice.
Web3 vs. Web2: David's Current Preferences
00:28:40
Speaker
Do you think you'd ever be tempted to go back to the web two world if something interesting came along or are you kind of web three through and through now? I mean, I, sometimes from time to time, I have some ideas. Um, my family has some ideas we'll want to implement. Um, I don't, you know, it's not out of consideration. You know, there are interesting things you can do. Um, again, it's usually in the wall was building software. You know, um but but at the same time, I still very much like Web3. So, you know, i I would say I'm more of a generalist, you know, I'm more of a startup or techie rather than Web3 through and through. I love Web3. I know Web3. I work in Web3. I think there's incredible advantages to Web3, but I would be remiss to say that I'm only Web3. I think I'm a generalist more than just Web3.
00:29:37
Speaker
OK. So you briefly, you've you've touched on it there, and I think you you know you were touching on it at the start of our conversation as well. But from the outside, looking in, sometimes you know working for a Web3 startup and blockchain projects and things can look quite glamorous from the outside. you know It's this cool cutting-edge industry that's building all this amazing new stuff. But what's it really like when you're actually on the ground building these these projects kind of day in, day out? What's it really like?
00:30:08
Speaker
It depends what stage you're on, but generally speaking, if you're in a startup, um it's there's always some a certain amount of stress involved. um And until you find the right staff, it can be grueling. And if you have to deal with the social aspect of Web3, meaning you're dealing with the followers, the token holders, whatever it is, And then it it becomes complicated. You have to ah kind of toe a fine line of how much am I okay connecting to them? How much am I leaving myself to myself? Where is that space? you know How much um am I taking personally? How much am I not taking personally? you know and And what's appropriate? So you have to create that kind of you know kind of almost like a framework for yourself.
00:31:03
Speaker
Like what's right? What's okay? Where is it okay to connect to them? Where is it? Where do I need to draw the line? How is the interaction gonna go? If somebody is unhappy, how deep am I gonna get into humpers and I'm gonna get to it? Or should I let somebody else handle it? So there's a tremendous amount of communication and PR enrolled, but really communication. um dealing with people, actually dealing with people. you know like we're Like I said before, we're not removed from, you know this is not like working in Amazon or something. you know like It's not like like creating an autonomous vehicle startup. Autonomous vehicle startup, if you're the CEO, you have a few engineers, you're talking to Ford,
00:31:55
Speaker
for them to buy your startup. That's the extent of what, and then you hire a marketing firm, you get a nice logo and a nice website, nice PR and stuff like that. And that's basically where you draw the line. Maybe I've seen a few times in in startups in ah other sectors, people, there there were CEOs that were very outspoken and they would sometimes like post on LinkedIn, for example. But interactions on LinkedIn are also always very very professional because you're dealing It's it's conversation between business people You don't really have that luxury again on web 3 because you're dealing with Twitter or X, you know, you're dealing with reddit you dealing with Telegram you dealing with discord You're dealing with developers, you know, I mean it's an enormous on traders. So it's it's a completely different bowl game So yes, I mean it's it's a very glamorous. It's great and
00:32:51
Speaker
But you have to understand that there's, in a web3, there's an edit component, an edit skill set that you need to have in order to be able to navigate it. And how'd you go about learning that? Just trial and error and seeing what works, what doesn't, or, you know, is there somewhere that you went to think, you know what, I need a bit of a crash course in PR. How do I, how do I approach this? Well, there's definitely no college degree for it. No, I mean, I would say first and foremost, you know, you a lot of the stuff you learn on this personal experience, you know, with me, I came a little bit more prepared than others because, as I said, I was a musician. So I had learned a lot about interactions and being in front of a lot of different people.
00:33:34
Speaker
And so I wasn't necessarily as nervous and as green as some others. um But i wouldn't I wouldn't say that I was totally prepared for dealing with, let's say, anons. It's a completely different situation because, as we know you know, a lot of people, when they're anonymous, they they can they go beast mode. Like, oh, you don't know who I am. Let me just say whatever I want. you know And so ah that is not something that you can learn ah By reading anything or even by lead by reading like in forums and stuff like that like you just have to kind of go with it and roll with it and the the whole PR thing is very complicated because
00:34:18
Speaker
Everybody knows what you're supposed to be doing and if you're doing something inappropriate until they're confronted with a situation where they're right there on Twitter and Somebody is saying really really bad things what we're whether right in the right way or not whether they're correct or not And so when you're not situation until you've dealt with two three four five times of that You're not prepared to deal with it And anybody who tells you or judges you at the time doesn't usually doesn't know what they're talking about because it's a very different thing when that light is on you. You know what I mean? like You're being talked about. You're being talked at. The light is on you. It's up to you to respond. And you're dealing with ah groups of people for whom the social media is their microphone.
00:35:14
Speaker
right And so your you may reply, it may be misperceived, but they have a very loud platform. And so that is very complicated. Now, a lot of CEOs withdraw when that happens, and understandably so. I don't think that it's the right thing to do, for the simple reason that whether you withdraw or whether you don't, stuff will still be said about you. And there's different schools of thought about it. Like, do you want to take the high ground and just never respond? And I'm above this. Do you want to tackle this head on and try to be diplomatic and really smart about it? Is there a way to be smart about it? Because if ah if if people want to go at it with you, is there a way to to handle it?
00:36:04
Speaker
So there's a lot of different ways that you can think about doing it. I have seen even times when you hire high-quality PR firms or high-quality marketing firms, them mishandle it and then this's not necessarily do the greatest job. So really all you get is when you don't engage is you get this situation as a CEO that you don't have to take ah ah accountability for it. So what I'm saying is it's very complicated. This is human nature. This is human interaction. It doesn't get easy. So in my opinion, what you what you can do is you can learn how to deal with it. You can learn how to not not not to sweat it too hard, how to just be cool, how to not make crash decisions.
00:36:52
Speaker
And how to, if sometimes if sometimes you need to stand by what you what you feel is is is correct, you stand by it. It is what it is. You know what I mean? I mean, that at the end of the day, that's what being a leader is about. The buck stop stops with you. You make the call. You feel it's the right thing. You did your best. Your intention was not to hurt anybody, was not to hurt your organization, and you felt it was right. And at that point, the chips can fall where they may. But because you are what you are, you're a leader, that's what you do and that's it. You know what I mean? So I think there is ah a kind of a Zen wisdom to it. You know what I mean? At some point as a decision maker, you have to be able to go there because especially in a sector like Web3, you will be there. It will happen.
00:37:41
Speaker
There's no such a thing as a Web3 startup that has never had issues. It's just no such a thing. They don't exist. Some Web3 companies have better PR departments than others, that's all. you so Yeah, and if you haven't had the issues ah so far, at some point, they'll probably come up. Absolutely. Again, it's all about being a public figure, knowing how to be a public figure, knowing how to be a public company. It is what it is. You have to be able to take it the good and the bad, and the good is never the only thing that you encounter. Yeah, you're right. You're right. and And is that...
00:38:22
Speaker
One of the main things that you'd like people to understand about the industry before becoming a part of it, is there anything else that you'd like to make people aware of, you know, anything that you think people should really do or really know before going, you know what, I really want a career in web three, but you know, you need to be aware of these things or these these situations first or anything like that springs to mind.
00:38:47
Speaker
I think there should really be only two things that I think are important to understand about Web3 before you start to build. The first thing is that like what I mentioned is so the social aspect that this is very much in the public eye kind of sector you will not be able to escape it um you have to be able to go in front of people talk talk to them about stuff and you have to be ready for the fact that some of them will like you and some some of them will not it's just this this is the just the basic truth and reality
00:39:19
Speaker
The other thing I think ah about Web3 is I feel like people need to understand that it's all about making a quality product. Just because you're in in a sector where you can raise easier in no way implies that you are not obligated to make a really high quality product.
00:39:41
Speaker
And so I think that that kind of is these are the kind of the two things. So yes, it's it's awesome because you can raise easy. Yes, it's it's super fast and super exciting. Yes, it's really glamorous to an extent. But then there's a huge social aspect to it, huge aspect of it of being an out in front of people and public figure. And at the same time, nobody will be okay if the product isn't good. So that that very much works just like in in other other fields.
00:40:17
Speaker
um Although actually, you know, in other fields, sometimes people don't make necessarily great products and sometimes it's passable. But generally speaking, you know, like in Web3, you do find that because so much of the interact the product interacts so map so much with knowledgeable people like traders that really do know what what you build or other entrepreneurs or institutions. the product will be very much under the microscope. So, you know, that quality, it has to be there. Definitely. And, obviously, out your your career in Web3, you know, you must have interviewed tons of people, hired tons of people, trained them, you know, helped people on there their career journeys.
00:41:04
Speaker
Is there any advice that you can share for people who are looking to build a successful career in Web3? I know that's quite a general ah generalized question, but are there any ah any like key attributes you think people and need to really develop in themselves to to have a successful career in this space?
Keys to Success in Web3
00:41:22
Speaker
um Well, first of all, you need to be comfortable. It depends on which part of Web3 you are. If you're an engineer, a lot of it has to do with you being open-minded and being able to learn by yourself. you know I mean, a lot of Web3 is non-standard. you know some of the best engineers are self-taught they go they go to forums to learn code they interact with other engineers that's how they learn they become great and then they pick up more and more languages and and that's not college you know that's not a system that's your own personal
00:41:59
Speaker
self-improvement process where you're genuinely interested in something and you learn it. And so one of the big aspects of Web3 is you have to be very comfortable not being standard, you know, that it's not about college and it's not about your boss telling you to do something, you just have to be, you just have to do it. Another aspect of Web3 is that a lot of the teams are very remote and so you have to be able to be comfortable being a self-starter. You have to pick yourself up. you know You have to manage yourself. Nobody's going to hold your hand. you know So if you're about wanting that, then Web3 is not going to work out. Not really, because there are very few huge companies where
00:42:46
Speaker
You genuinely have this huge training program. Now, like in my own company, in Glitter, we did have an apprenticeship program and we trained a couple of incredibly successful developers. um But it was genuinely an apprenticeship program. It wasn't like a a training course for people who are coming in, let's say selling insurance and and they're getting a training course, you know what I mean? Or like it wasn't like medical school and you're doing your re residency somewhere. This was an apprenticeship of two people that were remote, working in different sometimes in different time zones and they interacted and you have to be able to pick that stuff up, like languages and stuff like that. so
00:43:30
Speaker
I would say you know being able to be non-standard, being a self-starter, these are the most important aspects of of being effective in Web3. Completely agree. you know the The ability to to learn by yourself, I think, is is really key. you know the The industry is changing almost daily. Almost daily, there's new things new things coming out. Um, yeah and it's, it can be quite difficult to keep in touch. Right. So I feel like you have to be able to be a self self-starter. You have to be able to, uh, to learn by yourself and be very comfortable with doing it and really want to do it as well. Cause if you don't want to do it, you'll get left behind very, very quickly. Um, so I feel like that yeah absolutely that you need to need to have really. Yeah. And then especially with the amount of, like you said, the amount of information flying at you.
00:44:25
Speaker
When you're working working online, just the um it's not the kind of profession where like if you're a doctor or if you're a lawyer, you I guess you still continue to be a student of your craft, of your sector, but um you know basically, like you already know a certain thing, right? It's not gonna go, like human human body isn't gonna change on you, right? With Web3, that's not necessarily the case, you know? And so, like, you you know, you can know blockchain and then something new comes out, like DAG, for example. And that's different and it works differently. And it yet it works a little similar to the blockchain, but it's different. And you have to understand what it is and what it does. You know, and in a specific timeframe, you're dealing with monolithic blockchains. And then all of a sudden, a year later, you're dealing with
00:45:18
Speaker
um blockchains that are modular you know and it's a completely different like it's not the same you know it's very different and you have to be able to wrap your head around it and how the technology changed and the applications and and all of that and even the engineering languages change stuff Yeah, the amount of information comes at you, you have to be able to really understand and catch it, digest it and and understand how it applies to you know to the world, to the sector, to who you're hiring and how you're running things.
00:45:51
Speaker
you know Yeah, a hundred percent. Do you have any advice on where someone can go? This might be quite difficult question on where someone can go to stay up to date with news in the industry or stay up to date with new developments or to, um, yeah, kind of keep updating their skills and things like this.
00:46:11
Speaker
I mean, I get a lot from Max, honestly, for from Twitter. um it's a There's a lot of updates. I also um interact and various and on Telegram with various colleagues. You hear things, you hear about new technologies. um One of the interesting things about Web3 is that so much of our professional information is on social media rather than necessarily journals. By the time you hear it in journals, it's old news usually. So <unk> it's a very different kind of thing. It's a very different sector.
00:46:45
Speaker
you know um you You're just dealing with information flying at you know and from people from all over the world sharing new technology and new ideas of how that technology can be applied and developed and engineered and all of that. So I would say social media is big. Specific channels, influencers are very big. um you know And then beyond that, you can go to journals you know and you can try to figure out if ah
00:47:16
Speaker
You know, the information is up to date, but I would say social media is number one, actually.
00:47:22
Speaker
And do you think there's basic courses that everyone should do, regardless of the job that you're going into when you want to become a part of the industry? Do you think there are base level, ah there's like a base level knowledge or kind of basic courses that that everyone should should try and do? Because everyone that I speak to, whether they're a software engineer, whether they're a marketing manager, whether they're a community, whether they're a CEO, you know most people in the space really understand the technology. which you don't really get in in Web 2. What's your opinion on that? Do you think everyone needs that base level of of understanding? It all depends on how you learn. um I can only speak for myself. I learn really well by myself.
00:48:09
Speaker
I'm very good at learning. But then again, I used to read the encyclopedia for fun when I was little. So honestly, it's like, I'm just, i'm i'm I'm a nerd. Like, that's all I can say. I'm just a very big nerd. And I constantly self-study. I can't help it. It's just my nature. I'm very curious. um And I constantly got information, whether it was like reading encyclopedias or, you know, watching YouTube on specific things. like i It's a specific personality. I can't help it. Like I love to learn. So for me, I don't go to, I don't do courses because I already am learning constantly. Um, I'm very curious by nature and I just do it myself. And I know that a lot of, for example, a lot of developers do it the same way. They don't have courses that just genuinely pick it up. They interact with other people there. They, they get taught something.
00:49:02
Speaker
And they pick it up. I also learned from my colleagues, ah you know, um I see somebody doing really good marketing. I'm like, oh, that's amazing. That's a great idea. I didn't know that you could do it that way. So I learned that way as well, you know, by just doing it and then interacting. But again, it depends on how you learn because that's how I learn. somebody else may need to go sit in the course and have it talk to them and kind of that's how they take their information. You know, I take my information kind of my own way. And so I've have known people that have done classes and that was very good for them.
00:49:44
Speaker
um But so I don't think that there's a necessarily set way. It all really all depends on what type of a learning learner you are and and how you like to take new information and implement it within your professional life. You know what I mean? So it could work, you know, could be that taking a class in blockchain is something that could be incredibly beneficial. But for me, even when I started, even when I was a musician, um yeah, I took a couple of courses for entrepreneurship, like marketing, creating a website, you know, some stuff like that. But at the end of the day, I started to pick it up. I learned cold calling by cold calling, then I learned marketing by marketing, and then I kind of just got deeper and deeper. And then when I was doing highly engineered, like cable stuff, I learned by talking to the engineers and talking to the clients, going back to the engineers,
00:50:31
Speaker
having the engineer on the call listening to what the engineer said and learning learning about different kind of ah schematics and stuff like that I was just very good at picking up technology and understanding how it works and then eventually when I got into blockchain after I started after I stopped freaking out about blockchain because it seems so esoteric to me at first as I mentioned like I had to have my wife literally tell me what the heck it is and yeah After I stopped being freaked out by it, it started to make sense to me. Once I got a hang of it and I kind of got on that wavelength, I started to learn myself.
00:51:06
Speaker
And the initial way that I learned was by contributing to DeFi protocols and learning how things work. It was really fascinating stuff. I mean, you know, you learn so much, like we were doing a protocol that kind of was one of the first protocols trying to implement Islamic finance into DeFi. And so I started to know about Islamic finance. And then I started to think, how can you implement that towards DeFi? And so I learned about DeFi and Islamic finance and learn about finance that way. And it was always that way. you know every It was always this way. It was like trying to create something, learning different different parts of a story, connecting it all together, implementing it, living it, seeing if it works, if it flies.
00:51:52
Speaker
And then going back to the drawing board, if it doesn't, then that's kind of how I learned. you know But like I said, there there are many ways of doing it, and some people may need to sit in the classroom. And then maybe they don't go through the same process of failure, and then maybe they have a smoother ride. I don't know. It depends on on you know kind of how you learn. Sure. And would you say then that having a base level understanding of the tech is super important to be successful in Web3?
Tech Leadership: Bridging Products and Users
00:52:23
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you have to know what it does. You know, you have to know what it does. Like you have to understand different blockchains, what separates them, what the different consensus mechanism is, the different speeds.
00:52:36
Speaker
you have to use I would say you have to use them. like I've used a ton of blockchains. You have to get that feel. You know you have to get your hands you know in it. um You have to experience an airdrop. You have to go and claim something you know and and so that you learn how it works. You have to go and market yourself so you understand the marketing. i mean like You have to do If you don't do, it's very difficult to understand. But then, of course, the whole point is for you to understand the material deeply so that you can really kind of be flexible and nimble with it. So that when new information comes in, you know how to plug that in on top of what you already know, and then you kind of can, you know, maneuver and guide your organization in the correct way, I would say. Did you think that would change?
00:53:27
Speaker
Because if you look at Web2, for example, not everyone in Web2, say you work at a technology company, really only the engineers and the product guys within the company will understand how they actual tech. works from a you know a real kind of deep technology level. um Do you think that will change in Web3 as more companies start to adopt the use of blockchain? And as we probably, ah as more apps get built, we'll stop talking about blockchain and we'll talk about the actual product ah instead of kind of what powers it or what it's built on. Do you think then things will start to change or do you think there will always be a need to understand the underlying tech behind everything?
00:54:07
Speaker
I think that when you look at the most effective CEOs, like, for example, Steve Jobs, you see an underlying theme where they knew what the technology does. They may not have been engineers, but they understood what the the engineers were doing. And I think that that's always true. like The business component has to understand the technology component. you can't make decisions that are truly effective unless you understand what the technologists are doing and where they're leading. Because if the theory that it's a job of the CEO to make sure that the end user connects to the product effectively, if that theory is true,
00:54:55
Speaker
How can you not know what the technology is? Do you know what I mean? Like who's going to connect the product to the end user? How is that going to happen? It's not the job of the engineer to do that. The engineer is supposed to make work in tech. It's not the job of the marketers to do it because the marketer is all about getting your attention and bringing you in. It's not the job of the business developer to do it because the job of the business developer is to create the leads and try to close them.
00:55:23
Speaker
So somebody has to be responsible for connecting to the end user. And that usually in the good companies is the CEO. So if the top doesn't know what the technology is doing, how can you can how can you make effective products? You just can't. Because there's nobody to fill that niche of, this technology does this, and that's why it will be incredibly essential in your life. And on the other hand, I understand how you live and that's why you should connect to this technology.
00:55:54
Speaker
You know what I mean? So that that aspect, if the if the CEO doesn't understand what the technology is doing, then they can't fulfill that role. At the same time, if a COO doesn't know what the technology is doing, then they can't run operations around that connection about setting the CEO's strategy and vision to reality from the inside so that the process so that the process aids the CEO instead of hinders the CEO. if that makes sense. So that component of understanding the technology we' will always have to be there, otherwise you're just not going to be able to make effective products.
00:56:39
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And you've you've explained to me before that you advise startups and you've advised founders and and things before, right? yeah Is that one of the common mistakes that you see people make? Are there any others that that have really stood out to you over that time that you you'd be able to share? Yeah, I mean, the the inability to know how to connect effectively to the end user from the very top is often a big problem. you know It's not an easy thing to fix.
00:57:10
Speaker
it know like it It means that you have to somehow use your empathy, use your knowledge, use your will to connect to somebody else instead of being closed in what you know. you know So that is ah that is a problem. And that's something that a lot of the top founders have to you know are overcoming or have to overcome. um I would also say that another problem that I see is Sometimes people don't build products that necessarily can bring them revenue and maybe they're trying to sell the token more than create revenue. you know um That's another problem that we see in the business. um And I'm not sure that I don't think that's the right approach. It's just my opinion. Other people can disagree with me. you know Obviously, we all act from our life experience. That's what it is.
00:58:05
Speaker
For me, a business is not viable unless you have a way to have a revenue. Other people feel like if you sell a token effectively, that's all that matters. And in a way, they're right to and to to an extent, but it's still not a complete business. And it's very fragile within a bad market if if that's how you structure it. So you know I would say these are the the two top problems that that I see.
00:58:32
Speaker
It's interesting and and good insight. ah The revenue, the revenue topic, we could probably get into ah very ah very deeply, I could imagine. um Oh yeah, it's ahs it's a good hour.
00:58:47
Speaker
Well, David, obviously over the last ah over the last hour or so, you know you've you've shared some some brilliant advice and you know some great great insight. One question I always like to ask everyone before before we finish up. Knowing what you know now about leadership, about running a business, about technology, marketing, being a CEO, whatever it might be. If you could go back to the start of your career, is there any advice isnt that you would have for your younger self?
Advice for the Younger Self
00:59:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think the advice would be to chill.
00:59:26
Speaker
you know I mean, I think that that's the number one advice. To never act out of stress, and never act out of fear. you know And that's that's a great advice for life and not just business. You never want to act out of the negative emotions. You want to try to bring yourself to a modicum of kind of zen you know and and kind of like the state where you're comfortable. you know Because you just make up better decisions that way. you know, provided that we all come from the the basic truth that we all want positive outcomes. That's the best approach. And so if you are able to chill, if you're able to make decisions out of a calm place, then you save yourself a lot of heartache and problems and overreactions and stuff like that. And you can solve problems much easier and you create better processes, or you know, within your organization.
01:00:26
Speaker
that works better that itself than resolves the problem. So I would say that this is the number one advice I i would give myself. I really like that. um I'm gonna take that away myself. It's a chill. I like it. Okay. Well, David, thank you very much for taking the time to have a conversation today. ah've I've really enjoyed it. Like I said, you shared some brilliant advice. It was great to understand your journey and in a lot more detail. um And yeah, I'll definitely be yeah looking forward to listening to this one back and i'll I'll be taking a ton of notes on on a lot of the advice that you've you've shared.
01:01:03
Speaker
Um, if anyone is, is listening or watching to this and they would like to reach out to you, they maybe have extra questions or, um, you know, they might want to kind of pick your brain about anything else. Um, ah you, is it fairly easy to get in touch with you over Twitter? For example, Telegram, Twitter, Discord, LinkedIn.
01:01:25
Speaker
Yeah, I prefer LinkedIn. I just think it's it's a really good a professional way of of starting yeah a conversation. um I do a lot of the stuff that I do over other platforms like Telegram. But I prefer to to do initial ah introductions over LinkedIn and kind of just take them towards platforms that are a little bit more personal. and So I would say LinkedIn is the best place to get in touch with me. Great stuff. Well, David, thanks again. And daa I'll speak to you soon. Thank you.