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Web3 is not a job, it's a lifestyle with Nicky Chalabi, Head of BD, Telos Foundation
51 Plays8 months ago
In this episode, I spoke to Nicky Chalabi, Head of Business Development at the Telos Foundation.
We talked about Nicky’s career journey and not just what bought her into Web3, but what keeps her here. We spoke, in detail, about how BD differs in Web3 compared to traditional industries plus the key skills needed to be successful as a BD in Web3. Nicky tells us more about Telos, how the project differs from other L1 chains and the challenges of building an innovative project.
Behind The Blockchain is a series of conversations with leaders who have built successful products, teams and careers in Web3. You will get a chance to discover how successful individuals were able to accomplish their career objectives, the skills they have acquired, the mistakes and difficulties they encountered, and the advice they can offer you to help you reach your career aspirations.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Behind the Blockchain podcast. Today, I'm joined by Nikki Chalabi, Head of Business Development at Telos. Nikki, welcome to the show. How are you? Hi, guys. Awesome meeting and you. Thank you so much, Jack, for hosting me. I'm doing great. How are you? Yeah, not bad. Thank you. Not bad. Nikki, for people who don't know who you are, could you introduce yourself, please? Sure, sure, sure. My name is Niki Chalabi. I've been in the space for quite some time. I've actually started working since 2017 in crypto and initially started at crypto exchange, then moved on to a cryptocurrency solution provider. And after that, like started to work for various foundations, including NIO and NEON, and currently I'm with Teles Foundation.
00:00:39
Speaker
I mean, personally, also, I like to spend my time reading books, actually enjoying like hike enjoy hiking. And since I live in Switzerland, and I do enjoy winter sports. So that's a little bit about me and looking forward to this podcast and answering to your questions, Jack.
Transition to Crypto and Web3
00:00:57
Speaker
Nice. I think you have to enjoy winter sports if you live in Switzerland, right? That's almost a given. Correct, correct. I mean, you also have a lot of possibilities, right? You don't have to go essentially like too far away to enjoy them. Like you can just like take a train, like go somewhere close by like 30 minutes away from you and just like
00:01:14
Speaker
ski, snowboard, so it does give you that opportunity, which is great. so and i mean Switzerland is a place where people also enjoy doing winter sports, especially on Sundays, because everything else is close to anyways, so you can't too much. You either go for hiking or for winter sports. yeah That's quite nice ah quite nice. Yes, exactly. You get some time to touch grass, so let's put it this way. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Well, Nikki, you briefly touched on it then, um but could you talk us through your career journey so far? Did you have a pre-web three ah part two career before moving in? like What did that all look like? Sure, I can tell you. like And I will always tell to people, like I used to work in the traditional space. I mean, I used to work in the software development, actually. ah So I was working for a company that was actually providing software as a service solution to
00:02:05
Speaker
financial institutions like big banks or asset managers like regulated entities. And essentially, I will say like, ah yes, I would never want to go back because the rhythm and the space is somehow is completely different. Right. So and ah when I was in that ah space, like in a traditional space, ah like actually, like I was always checking what's going on, like in terms of novelties in the like in general industry in the tech space and so on. And of course like I you come across like for example stuff like Bitcoin like coins like Bitcoin like in the concepts you read the white paper but I wasn't that smart enough to actually pay too much attention to it let me put it this way so for me it was like okay this is cool but like ah okay I don't understand much about it so I will just like ignore it to certain extent like I've tried it I'm not gonna say that like I didn't but like
00:02:59
Speaker
I didn't understand it. So I bought it. So I was like looking at it. I'm like, okay, what do I do now? Like, that was my question. And essentially my um interest sparked ah when the like round of ICOs or when the wave of ICOs started. And I thought this was cool because now like you can actually go, you can analyze a startup that you like, you can read the white paper, you can join the telegram and transparently ask questions. and you can invest in that startup so basically if this fight like what let's say was reserved for privileged ones before like VCs and other investors now you could actually play the investor role yourself and choose ah the startup that you would like to invest in so
00:03:43
Speaker
That's what I thought it was cool. And I like you saw like wave of innovation coming in. I mean, never mind a bunch of ICOs, like majority of them, like 99 percent end up being
The Dynamic Web3 Environment
00:03:52
Speaker
scams. But like despite that, I think this was a very great like playing ground for you to actually check out the space and to um yeah to actually kind of play with it and see whether it fits your needs and or no like and also back then like right when this started there weren't there wasn't so much of information so you didn't have a lot of information let's say on youtube or on medium right you couldn't read much about stuff and be like okay so let me try this out or try that out so you actually basically like lots of things were happening of course still on twitter but also like word of mouth
00:04:29
Speaker
you know you have to attend sometimes meetups to get an idea of what's going on in the space and so on but like generally speaking that was like how I ended up in webtree and like when I started trying that out I was like okay I don't actually want to stay in a traditional space I would like to go and work in this in the webtree space because I really find it like super cool and I really love the people that are there right so and um ah the work is dynamic and usually it is groundbreaking because you require it requires like quick adaptation to new technologies and market changes and what I really like is that like the pace is fast and you work alongside like builders and visionaries and it's it's kind of an exhilarating experience so for me it was a must after that and for me it was like okay I really like and also like you get to experience different levels of responsibilities and you get to
00:05:24
Speaker
actually wear many hats because like ah you're in a startup environment and you can't just do like a specific job as you're required to do in the traditional space.
Business Development in Web3
00:05:33
Speaker
So here you really need to actually go into trenches and try different roles, do different things and ah at times like ah maybe do a work that you're not like really familiar with, which is great because it's also like um kind of um brief like improves your knowledge. You get, you adapt much faster. And you actually learn more. So since I like after I joined work tree, like I realized that like my learning learning experience like or my learning curve was like really different than what I had in the traditional space. For sure. So then you decided to take an interest in business development and partnerships specifically. Why? correct why Why that area?
00:06:16
Speaker
Sure. Generally speaking, like I have always been in the customer facing roles. So like even during like my ah during the time when I was in the traditional space, I was working as a technical um consultant. So I was working with the like financial institutions, and mostly I was like speaking directly to the customers. right So for me, it was like a kind of, um I am an extrovert. So for me, it's just due to my, I would say, character due to my due to the way I am as a person. So for me, it was a no brainer to be in the business development, because I really like to work with people, right? So if you are an introvert, maybe that's not the best job for you. But like, if you're an extrovert, essentially, like ah you would want to um
00:07:01
Speaker
of work maybe with people and business development essentially is a great thing and like you know a lot of people think of business development in but in a manner like ah okay these are the sleazy ah sales guys trying to sell us something you know And for me, it's different in Vapri. Like maybe, yes, to some extent, I can agree when it comes maybe to the traditional space, like to banking, to insurance and so on. But like in Vapri, it's different because like ah when you're trying to sell the products in Vapri, whatever it is, be it the blockchain, be it like, I don't know,
00:07:40
Speaker
whatever service like a you're trying to sell or be be it like ah what's the name, compliance tool or whatever, right? So you have to know your product and you have to understand to certain level technicalities. I'm not saying that you should be able to code or you should be able to like, even though I think it's an added value definitely, But I'm not saying that you should really deaf like go my too much into depth, but like still you have to know your product and you have to understand what's going on around you. So what's going on with your competitors? What's going on, for example, in other ecosystems? Why are they doing that? What kind of programs are they running? like And you have to stay on top of your competition. So that's the thing. And ah you need to have that knowledge in order to be able to do your job properly.
00:08:28
Speaker
Otherwise, um you will not be able to get most out of your job. That's number one. And you will not feel satisfied as well. Because if you, for example, see the other companies or the other projects performing much better than your projects, you essentially feel like, OK, what am I doing wrong? And it's not like this attitude where you say, OK, I'm just sales. I'm doing sales. So you have to always constantly educate yourself. And you have to be open to learn. and like and that's basically what I value in this space because it's like it teaches you quite a lot and you have a lot of information as well available at your fingertips right so it's not like a closed environment where you can't deduct
00:09:11
Speaker
that information where you can't get that information you actually have that access and you can ask people too so which is very cool like you don't even have to be embarrassed or ashamed like your question can be as stupid as you think as you want it to be no one is here to judge you and I think you should keep on asking questions to learn because like in the end of the day in this industry no one can claim that they know everything So l like you know the industry is so dynamic that things are moving really fast, and the pace is super fast. So you just can't keep up with all the stuff that are happening. So you have to, of course, sometimes ask questions, sometimes learn. And yeah, it takes time. But essentially, like all the tools are out there to
Networking and Learning in Web3
00:09:56
Speaker
learn. like You can just, like from one day to the other, start learning, and you have all the information available. This is how I see it. so
00:10:04
Speaker
And as a matter of fact, for me, it was like, since I really like working with people, since I really like talking to projects, since I really like talking to actual founders and innovators, for me, I was like, okay, I want to be in business development. And essentially, I want to work with, I would say, greatest and brightest minds in the industry. That's cool, that's cool. And you touched on it, you touched on it there, excuse me. You touched on it there about certain skills I think that you must have developed along the way in order to achieve your position now. Obviously being able to understand maybe technical concepts or just having that growth mindset of like always wanting to learn. Are there any other key skills that have really helped you become a head of the business development for the Telos Foundation in Web3?
00:10:55
Speaker
ah Sure, just speaking like I think when you are in web tree you shouldn't just like focus on the title or or something like that because like it's not for example it's not like in the traditional space again where people are chasing titles or like ah for example when people get promoted and essentially like for example they change from executive director or to managing director or whatever like I don't understand the difference between those two I'll be honest ah But essentially like for example, a lot of the times they go on show off with those titles and I think like in work three that's not the mindset to have like, you should quite, you it's a noise, I would say, ah to a certain extent, of course like ah
00:11:34
Speaker
when your title goes ah like you get a different title you might also like you might also get salary increase which is always great don't get me wrong but what I'm saying is that like that the title itself per se shouldn't be your focus right you should be focusing on most like ah okay what can I learn in this space over and what can I deliver because in the end of the day even if you're working for a specific company or a project you actually You know, the space is so small, you're actually enhancing the space as well. So you have to think of that as well. And I think that's a great opportunity because you can actually make an impact, right? So, and if you do a great job, like people will talk about you and they will try to copy you and see what can they actually inherit from the like um actions that you've taken, what can they learn from you? And they will be reaching to out to you to also get your opinion as well, which is great. and
00:12:25
Speaker
When it comes to me personally, I like to share my opinion. I like to share my ah like, let's say once I want to reach it out to me, I like to share my opinion. I like to provide guidance if I can, like if I understand the topic, if I know the topic. If I don't know, of course, I kind of say that I don't know this, so I'm not the right person to ask. But I think like ah this is what you should do because like um you shouldn't think of like, okay, I'm competing with the other chain or with the other project. I cannot tell them this or that. That's a wrong mindset and that's a wrong attitude. Like you should try to actually, yeah, try to help out your industry peers.
00:12:59
Speaker
Let me i put it this way. And generally speaking, right so what is very like what is different for me, like I would say maybe as my personality or as my approach, like for me, what's very important is continuous learning. So for me, it's like very important to keep updating my knowledge about new technologies, new chains, and market trends. And ah also, like you have to build a robust like ah professional network within the industry right as you grow, as you actually like get engaged more. And I think like one of the key elements that ah or one of the key skills I would say that a lot of PDs miss, this is my view, it's actually getting back to people. It's very simple, but it can do its magic. Let me put it this way. So it's basically like ah what I mean by that. So let's say, yes, you're a business developer. Of course, you, for example, use tools such as Telegram most of the time, right, for communicating with the other people.
00:13:59
Speaker
Like, um you may use some other tools as well, like Twitter, LinkedIn, but most probably your day-to-day relies on telegram usage. And essentially, like, a lot of the times you get messages, right? People ping you, sometimes those are the scam messages, or you're working with the projects and those projects ping you, you know? And you might be surprised, like, how many cases you might see when the people just don't get back. even put to the project, at all, at all, at all, exactly for days, you know, like, and it's like, and okay, maybe you're on holiday or or whatever, or sometimes it happens that you forgot to answer. But like, you see this, like, actually this happening continuously. And you're like, okay, that's like, that's not good thing. Like whether you're in web tree or in a traditional industry, it doesn't matter. Like you always have to get back to people and you understand, like, for example,
00:14:49
Speaker
like for example the counterparties that you work with, when you get back to them like they're also different to you when they work with you because they are they're like okay fine like I'm getting the best um experience here. I'm getting the best service here because like people are getting back to me. So I mean like I worked in different foundations like and I have seen this like continuously and for me it's like an epidemic I would say still in the industry and that needs to be fixed because for me I think that's the most crucial part like if you can master that
00:15:20
Speaker
Of course, we can always complain that we get a lot of telegram messages and we don't know when to answer, like how to answer and so on and so forth. But I think that's an excuse personally. And I always say like, you should be always responsive.
Daily Life and Skills in Web3
00:15:33
Speaker
And I think that's the key, that that's the biggest, I mean, I would say that's the most important skill that you can, you should have. And I think that will be like one of the ways where you can succeed. So that's my view. I like that. I think that's a good, a really good tip. Yeah, always being responsive and and getting back to people in ah in a timely manner and things like that. um Correct. Obviously in the recruitment world as well. And obviously our job is people. ah Really? and And yeah, like people not getting back to people quick enough or or ignoring messages or just ghosting people and this kind of stuff. Yeah, it happens in in every industry, I think, whenever there's business development or sales and things like that involved.
00:16:17
Speaker
um Yeah, it doesn't matter which industry you're in, like you can be in traditional space, you can be in a banker, you can be, I don't know, oh like um an insurance salesman, you can be in web tree, it doesn't matter, right? Like you it happens in every industry, especially when you're working with people and you see these cases, they are quite common. So the the thing is that in the traditional space, I would say it's not that amplified because a lot of the correspondence goes via email. So
00:16:49
Speaker
And yeah let's say you're actually conversing with your bank or so you're speaking to someone else, your insurance provider and so on and so forth. So it's all majority of the correspondence goes by emails, right? Or sometimes you give a call. But the problem is that in web tray, it's much more obvious because you are in like you're using telegram and you have like those telegram groups where people like speak to each other and you see basically, who responds who doesn't respond and you see that sometimes like it takes for a person like a week to respond and you're like okay it's just a simple question you can always if you even if you don't have an answer you can just say like okay give me some time i don't have the answer but let me get back to i think it's better than just like leaving it open-ended without any answer yeah yeah i agree and also on telegram as well you get the double tick right when someone's read your message
00:17:40
Speaker
So messaging people one-on-one, you can see if you're being ignored. um Totally. But um I was going to ask you actually um about your end goal when you started your ah your career. And I was going to ask if ah your goal was always to become you know the head of business development somewhere. But by the sound of it, that wasn't your goal at all. As you mentioned, that job titles aren't necessarily a a thing for you. Did you Did you always have the goal of, look, I want to be in business development in some capacity ah within a project or within a company? I assume you didn't know about Web, as you mentioned, didn't know about Web 3 at the time. But was it always your end goal to be in a, you know, a lead business development type position?
00:18:24
Speaker
ah definitely like I would say definitely not. That wasn't my end goal, actually. And I think like when it comes to business development, right ah so jealous speaking like as I mentioned, right I really like working with people. So for me, it's great. And I feel like it's a great opportunity because I can work with the brilliant minds in the industry, with the founders, with great projects, like learn more about their product, like you know get some alpha, as I say. and understand more the product and actually if I have questions I can have direct access right and asking those questions but the thing is that like what we always forget to say like all to mention like business development I think it like it's not just a role it's a skill as well so like CEO yo needs to be a business developer I think CEO needs to be a business developer a dev role needs to be a business developer right so because like
00:19:14
Speaker
CEO needs to sell the product, like no matter what. right So if you go to conferences or whatever, you will be speaking to people and you need to um be able to sell that product, your product and what you're doing. Then um CTO as well, like of course, that can be a technical wizard. and like But always you see that the most, I would say, successful CTOs are the ones that have also, they're not introverts, they're extroverts, and they also understand the technicalities. These are the most successful people, I would say, in the industry because they know how to code, they understand the code behind, and they know how to speak to the people.
00:19:51
Speaker
So like CTO also needs to be a business developer. So for me, it's like, ah you know, it's just like, even if you're a founder of the project, you need to sell your project. You know, your project won't sell yourself, like itself by itself. So let me put it this way. Like you always have to keep on selling your product because in the end of the day, like um it has to, like people have to know about it. People have to try it out. People like they have to check it out and see whether it fits their needs or not. ah You can't just be quiet about the product and be like, okay, expect people to learn more about it. Of course, unless you're going to actually, um for example, launch something like chat GPT, that's something different. But then even then, like how many years did it take to get to the version of chat GPT that we have currently?
00:20:40
Speaker
or like telegram right so like ah of course telegram can claim that like they didn't have the sales department but everybody knew that the guy who invented the say ah telegram that he was the one who invented the biggest social like network in post-soviet union countries like Russia, Ukraine and so on and so forth that was used well widely so that's the thing so like there was already some sort of a brand associated right so and Just like ah due to that brand, the other stuff became also successful to a certain extent. So that's what I mean. Like in the end of the day, everyone needs to be able to sell the product. And I think everyone needs to be, to a certain degree, a business developer. Like I say, like, for example, for me in this space, it's also very important to learn the technicalities, not just be like a salesperson. Like ah to understand, to try to understand, OK, for example, how a specific protocol works, if I can
00:21:36
Speaker
get deeper into it and understand the code. That's also one of the things that I'd like to do, or for example, right if I can compile simple smart contracts and you have a lot of information on on that, like for example, on YouTube and on other channels where they can showcase you, for example, how to fork a UniV2 or some other protocols. like You have to keep on enhancing yourself. and Also, the more like you learn about, like for example, as personally, the more I learn about the technicalities as well, the better I become in my job as well. so I think like in this industry, its
00:22:10
Speaker
quite intertwined. And I think like you have to try to kind of capture both ends. And essentially, I would say that maybe everyone like needs to try to be a little bit of a business developer and try to sell the product. So this is how I see it. I think like it's not just a role, it's a skill. And you have to work on that skill. I like that. i yeah yeah I agree with you. I think you're definitely right there ah for for sure. do you Do you have a different end goal for yourself now? ah Sure. ah like i mean The goals have to change, I would say. The the only goal that has to keep on like being there is you have to keep on learning. right so You have to keep on improving yourself and you have to keep on being persistent as well because like ah um
00:23:01
Speaker
yeah like in order to basically achieve the goals that you have in place you have to keep on pushing for them and you shouldn't give up because in the end of the day if you give up too soon like you might be very close to achieving your goal but you might not get there so generally speaking right like what is my goal right so um in the end of the day it's like of course i really love my job i really love what i'm doing and i think like i really love the space that i'm in and i can't imagine myself being outside of this space like i think i I mentioned it many several times already, and I have also mentioned it many times to different people that
Strategies and Challenges in Web3
00:23:36
Speaker
I know. Of course, like in the end of the day, what you would want to do and try to do is to start a project of your own and to see how it goes. right so like ah to
00:23:47
Speaker
where are this like I'm not saying where a founder had, because again, we're talking about here the titles and having this privilege of calling yourself a founder. That shouldn't be the idea. It's more like trying things and seeing like OK, can I do it? can ah Do I have the right idea to to do it? you know And then like do I have the right team? like Am I working with the right people in place to do do to pull it off? And essentially, like ah yeah to create something that could benefit the whole industry and the space, that's something basically that I would draw love love to try out ah and eventually. And um that that would be my goal, to check it out if it works or not.
00:24:29
Speaker
Let me put it this way, yes. That's cool, but I'll be keeping an eye out ah for for when that happens. Nicky, when um obviously a lot of people ah have career aspirations, most people have career aspirations, um they would look at your position now and think, you know what, business development lead at a and very well-known project, um successful project in in the space. and But a lot of people, I guess they would move into certain positions without really understanding like what it actually takes to be in that position or what it even means. But could you talk us through a day in the life of a head of business development working at the Telos Foundation? Sure. So like when we're talking about like, yeah, it depends like also on the project right when we're talking about head of the business development, because it can be a smaller project and your problems are different than when it's a little bit of a bigger project because like,
00:25:21
Speaker
Then you're actually um yeah you have different issues. Let me put it this way. Like, for example, right. How does it work for me in my day to day life? I work closely mostly with the projects like the ones that I actually on board like into the ecosystem to understand their needs. So we don't have a huge team as well. Let me put it this way. And essentially, like, ah for example, do they need liquidity? Do they need additional liquidity mining incentives? Or do they are they applying for a grant? like basic Basically, also, I'm checking, for example, who's applying for a grant? What are they requesting? like Are these new novel projects? like Are they going to benefit our ecosystem? And then like also understanding, like for example, the strategy of your ecosystem. okay
00:26:05
Speaker
So what do we want to achieve in this ecosystem? What leg of pieces are we missing? Do we need, for example, an additional AMN, like a DAX, or do we need, for example, something else like, for example, a yield aggregator, or do we need to bring something new into, like, ah into our infrastructure stack, be it RPC providers or be it an indexer. So you have like one part of it is like, of course, to have a strategy in place, but also to understand like, okay, you have to kind of follow that strategy when it comes to the projects that you're onboarding. So so my job is basically like on daily basis, I would say it's between onboarding and um
00:26:43
Speaker
ah projects and actually like getting the projects into our ecosystem and also actually speaking to the existing projects. So working closely with the existing projects and also like working closely with the existing projects I mean that like not just like really like replying to their needs but also checking out okay can we combine for example this project with another project and get like a and build a new product or can they collaborate with for example this project and like offer this to the community, for example, or ah like also, you know, the other part of it is like, ah okay, how do we grow with our community? So I work closely with marketing here, or how do we bring more devs into our ecosystem? So here is like also working more with the developers and with marketing here to understand basically how can we enhance our developer outreach as well. So, and ah essentially, of course, like,
00:27:40
Speaker
You also have to understand that it's not always as smooth as you can imagine so or as it sounds. So you get to do a lot of mistakes as well. But like the industry is so young that you can't really avoid those mistakes. You have to do them to learn from them. And essentially, you have to understand, what are the lessons learned? And for example, if you're driving an initiative, right let's say you've started an accelerator program, which we did like a couple of months ago. It didn't work out. But it was a very great learning experience for us. So okay so for example, we started a program. okay So it didn't work out. Why it didn't work out? What can we change for the future that it can work out? And well how we can enhance it? right So that's something to keep in mind.
00:28:22
Speaker
and also applies the same like for example to the grant ah for example like lots of I mean In 2021, if you look at it, lots of foundations, lots of protocols, they were giving out grants like candies. So like everyone could just qualify for one. And yeah, that wasn't probably the right approach. But that doesn't mean that you have to disqualify grants completely. So you can actually look at that, let's say, experience and learn from it and actually build something more sustainable. And this is, for example, what we've done at Talos. So we looked at all these
00:28:54
Speaker
ah for example protocols for layer ones that have been given out grants like um like more aggressively in the past. And we said, okay, let's adopt a model that would make sense, right? So like, let's, for example, ah give the grants based on milestones, which are more granular, and or let's give the grant, like, for example, once the project deploys, and we do the QA check, and of course, like also as a business developer, you're always, oh I would say, um a bit stressed, because especially when it comes to DeFi, because you never know which protocol is going to be the next one to get hacked in your ecosystem.
00:29:33
Speaker
When something is going to happen, you you really don't know, all you can do is like, okay, you can just like say like, okay, once something happened, okay, now how do I address this issue? Okay, for example, once we had a hack issue, so like now let's improve our quality assurance process, right? So like analyze, okay, they've done like, this sort of work and essentially the code changes they have in place won't impact much or won't present new security issues. And essentially take it from there. But you know you have to be ready that things can blow up. Things can happen. you know like Because in the end of the day, you're dealing with different pieces. You're shuffling different pieces. like You have your existing projects. You have the projects you're onboarding like new, like trying to get them to come into your ecosystem.
00:30:22
Speaker
And then like ah you have the strategy on the other hand that you have to look at it and be like, okay, so um like does it fit into our strategy? And then the other thing is like you have to also keep on checking your numbers, right? So what what are you doing? like How does it impact the data? so and Is it beneficial or no? so Do we see, for example, transactions increasing? Do we see the number of users increasing? And if this doesn't happen, like why it's not happening? you know you can't just like I've seen people just, like for example, seeing that the initiative doesn't work, cutting it off completely, and thinking that it's better to actually focus on something else. It might be a right strategy. I'm not arguing with that.
00:31:02
Speaker
But I always think that like maybe it's also worth checking what didn't work exactly, what I didn't do right, and try it maybe differently, give it another chance, and then see if it's going to work or not. So it's always easy to cut off something and treat it as a sunk cost. But I think I've given it a try like once more and checking it out like much closer, and seeing like okay which actually attributes or which parameters can I shuffle to achieve a better result. and then actually get to that better result. So yeah, I would say like um the day of business developer generally speaking is quite vibrant. So yeah you get to speak to yeah different founders projects, but you also get to work internally with different teams like
00:31:48
Speaker
You work with product, you work with marketing, you work with community, ah you work with your developers in the team. So you also get to experience that palette, which is great because you're from each one, you learn something new, which is also awesome. But also like ah I would say um being a business developer, I mean, you have to be, I think in my view, ready for it. Like ah you have to be ready to be on standby, like 24 seven. So you can't just like ah leave your messages unanswered, even if it's a weekend. like you know You don't have to answer maybe straight away, but like you kind of have to be on standby. And if there are questions or there are issues, you have to be able to jump in quite quickly. Yeah, I yeah yeah agree. um Your role sounds very, very varied. Were you expecting it to be that varied before you
00:32:45
Speaker
moved into that position? ah To be honest with you, I was looking forward to it. so yeah's like Because the reason why I actually moved out of the traditional space is I wanted always something dynamic. I wanted something fast-paced. And for me, it was like, OK, I want to try it out. you know I want to try to fail. right so Because a lot of people, a lot of times, they are afraid to fail. you know and And to me, like um I mean, like failure is a way to actually learn something and to kind of find like something new, find something that you like and explore yourself as well to a certain degree, understand your strengths and weaknesses. So that was what I wanted. And I felt like in the traditional space, you can't really do it because you in most of the cases, you're just stuck to what you're doing, right? And you can't really step right or left. You have to focus on what you're doing. you can't like Your role won't vary. It will be from day one to day the same one. It's like a machine. Let me put it this way. And you're part of that machinery. So unfortunately, right. ah I would call it also modern slavery, but I don't know maybe some people would like it. But yes, this is how I see it. But like when you are in the startup world or when you're in like work space, it's not the same. It's very like, yeah, your role varies.
00:34:12
Speaker
It can vary based on the circumstances. Your role can evolve and change, actually. like Of course, when the organization gets more mature, your role also becomes more mature. like You also probably won't be looking for a generalist. You'll be more looking more for the specialized people. right So I wouldn't say like I'm specialized. I would say more often um I'm more of a generalist. And this is what I enjoy doing, because I just don't can't see myself to sticking to a specialized role and being like, okay, I'm just going to do that. I like to see myself in different roles and actually also to like, you know, grow with it, right? And you know, when you do different, like you wear different hats, you actually also explore what you like more and what you don't like. So you understand that as well. And you get a good grasp of it and you're like, okay. So and you also understand like, okay, for example, marketing, I will tell you I'm not good at it, right? So I
00:35:05
Speaker
Like I will leave leave it to professionals. So even if I'm asked to do something like el small in marketing, I'll be like, no, I would like to check it with the person that understand because I'm really not good at it. So like that's not something like. um I mean, I'm good at, so um i always I'm always open about it. But generally speaking, right, like ah that's what I like about the space is that like you can actually try to find out your strengths and weaknesses and you can leverage your strengths, right? So you can actually utilize them and no one will be blocking you.
00:35:40
Speaker
essentially you'll be able to do that whereas us in the traditional space you will not have this opportunity that's why i like um I always talk to younger generation or to the ones that are like graduating or doing their studies I'm like okay like you can always go and work for a much bigger organization when you're 50 or ah close to 50 or whatever but like you don't need to do it right now you can just go and try things out you can try fail try again fail till you succeed And then decide for yourself like whether you don't like this fast-paced environment and go to a different environment which offers you a better work-life balance. so Yeah, I agree. It's better to take the risk earlier. And then if you're exploring all these different opportunities and all of these different areas of work, then yeah, you really understand what you want to do earlier in your career. you know And then you get to do the fun stuff for longer ah than if you were exploring it later on.
00:36:36
Speaker
Correct. And like when you're young, I think you shouldn't like, of course, like financial part plays an important role. But when you're younger, you shouldn't I think chase just the salary part or salary component. Like, because sometimes people, they do get fixated much more on that and then like they end up going to a like workplace or to a space that they don't like and they just like stick around because they really like, you know, the salary that they get paid, like they really like the comfort, you know, but in in the end of the day, they might even hate their jobs. So and I think that's not really healthy as well. I think you should just like follow your interests, because if you really follow your interests and do what you like, you will make eventually your money. So
00:37:21
Speaker
That's true. It's easier said than done, isn't it? Because I remember back when I first started my career, I think everyone was telling me, you know, do something you really enjoy and this kind of stuff. And then you kind of think, actually, you know what, I just want to make as much money as possible. And then the further you get into career, you're actually thinking, you know what, like I need more purpose than I need. Correct. The money aspect. And if you have the purpose, you get really interested in it, you get really passionate about it. And then the rest of it kind of looks after itself, to be honest. Exactly. Because like when you have passion, and you do something that you enjoy, you become good at it and you become successful. Right. So and essentially the financial part comes with it. Right. So that's what happens in most of the cases, I would say. So and that's what you should be fixated on actually to do something that I really like and I really enjoy, like dragging yourself to an office like from nine to five or whatever, you know, just suffering throughout the day.
Introducing Telos and its Technology
00:38:15
Speaker
and It wasn't for me. Yes, it wasn't for me as well. So like you start, of course, all of us start in this manner because are you here for exam you study, for example, you do your studies, like you graduate from the university, you hear like, for example, ah one of your peer ah peers like ended up getting a job like a high paid job and you you're like, oh, wow, I want to do the same. I want to follow the same footsteps. And then like you actually start following the same footsteps. You end up in a environment that you don't really like you don't really enjoy you understand that they don't leverage your actually strengths all strengths so you're just like a cog in the machine right so you have to like you have to make sure that the machine turns and you become part of that machinery and essentially like um
00:39:01
Speaker
Yeah. In the end of the day, you don't enjoy it. You know that kind of you complete your day, you come back ah home and yeah, you just watch TV and you repeat it. You rinse and repeat it for five days in a week. And essentially you you you enjoy like when you have your weekends and then like everything starts again on Monday. And essentially like for me, I think that's not the best, I don't know, option personally. Like I really, like, I really enjoy the space. I really enjoy what I'm doing. So for me, it doesn't matter whether it's a weekend or a weekday, I can work on weekends and weekdays. So, and that's the biggest like factor like to take into consideration because like when I work on the weekday, I don't, weekend, I don't feel like I'm suffering. I actually enjoy it. So. That's good.
00:39:48
Speaker
but Yeah, not many. I don't know if there are many people out there that can say that. Exactly. A lot of people live live for the weekends, right? Correct. So yeah, it's tricky. Nicky, could you introduce us to Telos in a bit more detail? Sure, of course. I mean, I'm sure like some people know already about Telos in the space because it's and it's one of the oldest projects actually launched in 2018. But ah some of sometimes we get actually confused with Telos as well. But I will just like like to mention that it's two different projects. So we're not correlated or related in any form.
00:40:24
Speaker
So Telus is actually layer one launched in 2018. It's a delegated proof of stake. And when we launched, we launched in a fair launch manner, so which means that we air dropped our tokens to the community members. So we didn't have any ICO or any fundraising. And essentially, the differentiating part of the chain factors of the chain is that like in production, we can process like up to 15,200 TPS. And when it comes to gaseous, they are like super low and they are fixed. So they don't fluctuate with network volumes. So as a matter of fact, like ah they are predictable. And essentially, in 2021, what we did, we launched Telos EVM. yeah
00:41:03
Speaker
And the reason behind it is fairly simple because if you look at different like ecosystems or chains and or also different dApps, like majority of the dApps deploy most of the times on EVM chains. And essentially, like ah because it's much easier, so they can use the same tools. They can they don't need to do a co change um significant code change. And they can just like they don't need to get, for example, security or just in most of the times as well, because they are simply deploying their smart contracts. Whereas if, for example, if you have your like native stack, most of the times they will need to write their smart contracts taken to the consideration.
00:41:44
Speaker
ah for example, the coding language that you're using and yeah adapt to that. And ah hence, like that's why, like for example, you have much more growth, I would say, and deployment possibilities for that on the EVM chains than on the other chains. And essentially, like that's what we did. We launched those EVMs in 2021. This is one of the highly most highly performed EVMs out there. so And essentially, like um ah how it works, it's just like a smart contract that sits on top of the native layer. And the EVM RPC plays a crucial role because it translates the native APIs into the AVM RPC methods. It processes the same code as other EVMs.
00:42:27
Speaker
And it's actually like also ah like, ah yeah, the only differentiation is that we have Telos, which is used as a gas token, but pretty much like it is ah fairly EVM compatible. And essentially like ah this is where we're focused on when it comes to the ecosystem growth. And this is where we're growing our ecosystem when it comes to gaming and defied apps at the moment for onboarding like, um at various steps there. But also one thing to remember, like I think if you're like if people check out our Twitter and our X account or other ah our other social media, they will see that we've been lately talking about Snarctor, where I actually also we making waves when it comes to the ah to the ah ZK um topic. so And Snarctor is basically it's the decentralized protocol for scaling snarks. It's actually a novel approach.
00:43:23
Speaker
ah So what it does, it ah it's it's meant for decentralized recursive proof aggregation. So it actually what it does, it enables aggregating many proofs for different transactions into a unique proof. And those transactions can be completely unrelated. And the resulting proof, like what it happens is that it can be verified more efficiently and have a constant verification time independent from the number of aggregated proofs. And ah this not only enhances, for example, the scalability of a ah chain, but also makes it more feasible for the use cases. And essentially, this is a novel approach that we're taking here. And we are like aiming to make it like decentralized from day one. So if you, for example, look at various TK roll-ups in the industry, there's always like some sort of a centralized factor.
00:44:17
Speaker
for example, sequencer, and we're trying to actually remove all those centralized elements. And ah we will also introduce kind of a reward mechanism for the protocol and um all the, like the actors participating in this protocol will be rewarding for the tasks they complete.
Market Dynamics and Staying Relevant
00:44:36
Speaker
So there will be four actors, like for example, users, the ones that submit requests for the DK proofs, they want to be ah aggregated, this can be anyone. Then you have like, for example, schedulers, those are the special
00:44:49
Speaker
like actors or entities that coordinate the proof aggregation process. Then there are provers. that there They do the actual work because they merge ah proofs according to the schedule. And the submitters, they submit final aggregate proofs on chain. But like that basically we will produce the proof of concept in about three to four months and will showcase it during ECC hopefully. Sounds cool. Yeah, I was gonna ask you how far along that journey are you guys? Yeah, three, four months until until you're ready to to launch? Or is that just to kind of showcase? It's a proof of concept. It's a proof of concept. So currently we have like basically the white paper available on our website, like and people can check it out.
00:45:34
Speaker
And ah basically like, but the proof of concept or the MVP will be available like right before the ECC. This is where we would like to showcase the protocol. Sounds cool. yeah i'll ah I'll be keeping an eye out for it. Awesome. Sounds good. too And what's it really like building or working in a project ah like that? You know, obviously a webflow project's been long've been around for a long time, building innovative things, you know, on the on the surface or or people outside of the industry. Maybe it looks really glamorous and cool and and things like this to work in those types of projects, which I'm sure it is. But what's it really like when you're actually
00:46:15
Speaker
on the ground trying to get something like that ah built developed out there get it in front of the right people like what what's it what's it really like can you give us any insight on that sure sure sure so um it depends right it actually depends on many factors but one of the key things is the market conditions i would say so if you for example look at the bear market is different than when you look at the bull markets uh when you're in a web tree startup or a space. So in bear market like general speaking what you're focused on, you're focused on solidifying infrastructure, you're focused on improving products and actual understanding like how you can deepen the user engagement or your community engagement. And essentially like what they say it's like the bear market does are for builders and it is true because like you don't have too much distraction going on. So you as a protocol as
00:47:09
Speaker
Basically, as a company, you focus on delivering and shipping products. And this is what we did to most of the degree, like we were trying to grow the ecosystem. Of course, you have and enough stress as well, because like, of course, you see, for example, you live from one um incident to the other incident, right? So you see something getting hacked, you see like FTX crashing, you know, like you go through that. and yeah Essentially, like ah you'll get just like used to it eventually, but in in the end of the day, this does affect your operations and this does affect your mind because you don't know how long this is going to last. And as a matter of fact, you don't know where you need to save your costs and what are the measures you should take because there is no like
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah, there's no rule book for that. And no one knows, right? So you have to understand like basically and go with the flow to a certain extent. So this is like one thing to look at it. But as a matter of fact, you're still focused on building, you're still focused on actually ensuring that you can grow your ecosystem. Because like historically, you know that after each bear market, there's a bull market and you want to capitalize on it before the bull market And, essentially, like a lot of the time people make a mistake of waiting until
00:48:27
Speaker
bull market before like making higher expenditures and um for example growing the ecosystem and so on but I think that's a mistake because once you hit that moment or once you hit the signal that the bull market is about to start a lot of other competitors are doing the same thing and then essentially you will have to spend much more most probably to attract the same projects or the same initiatives into your ecosystem because things become much more expensive because people want more money because there's more demand for that. And essential like um as I said, like the best is like okay to take this bear market in a very productive form and try to make the most out of it. And I think that's the best time you you can do that.
00:49:12
Speaker
And then when it comes to the bull market, of course, bull market is about like capitalizing on market enthusiasms. like You have to have lots of expansion and scaling efforts. You have to have different focus as well. So things are moving much faster. You're more prone to make mistakes. Of course, like you're competing against the time. Let me put it this way. because like others are also want to come into your spot and take that shining spot away from you. you know Everyone's like raising funds. VCs are spraying and praying. you know So a lot of things are happening at the same time. And as a matter of fact, like um yeah you don't have um much of a time, I would say,
00:49:54
Speaker
to focus on building and concentrating of course you still have to keep on building but your concentration becomes completely different you want to market you want to showcase you want to basically show that you're relevant you know and the aim is to stay relevant because like during the bull markets much harder because there's so many things happening that ah you know the people start concentrating on different things they might there are many problem many more projects they look for different projects they look for this new shiny stuff you know like that they can invest and make them like
00:50:28
Speaker
20 or 30x or maybe sometimes 100x. So it depends on the market conditions, I would say. But generally speaking, right like I would say it's always very important to keep on delivering, no matter the hype or no matter marketing. you know Hype is good. Don't get me wrong. It's actually, unfortunately, it is required by the industry. But essentially, you have to eventually justify that hype. And if you don't have something to back it up with, It's basically a sand ah castle, right?
Advice and Reflections
00:50:57
Speaker
It will yeah be destroyed eventually. And as a matter of fact, like you have to keep on building and showcasing that you're actually building something really cool, something that really can change the industry and can bring something new to the industry players. So that's basically something to keep in mind. There's a lot for people to understand, right, before they move into the Web3 space.
00:51:23
Speaker
You've obviously given us a a snapshot there of of all sorts of different things that that you have to be aware of. and The market conditions and and um yeah the bull market, bear market, plus like different mindsets in each one and and and everything. Is there any advice that you can share for people if someone's coming into the Web3 space? Anything you can share on how they can try and build a successful career or anything that you'd like people to be aware of before they actually move into Web3?
00:51:54
Speaker
Sure, first thing first what I would like to mention about it is like you have to have an interest. If you're not having an interest, like you you're not going to get too far because we've seen in the previous bull market that a lot of people were coming from the big corporates to Webtree because they've heard about like ah large checks they can get, you know, and then essentially combined with tokens, right? So it was quite attractive for them and they would just like jump the ship because of that. And I think that's the wrong reason to enter web trees. So that's my view because in the end of the day, like what we've seen also that during the bear market, those people were not needed anymore. And essentially they ended up going back to the traditional space, right? So um as a matter of of fact, apart from the others that also
00:52:39
Speaker
ended up going to traditional space. My my thing is that like what I would like to emphasize, Webtree is not a job, it's a lifestyle. So you have to leave it to be able to actually succeed in it. This is what I believe um strongly, and this is what I would follow religiously myself. So if I didn't follow it, I wouldn't mention it. But like for me, it's a lifestyle. What I mean by that, like ah it means that you have to constantly check out, learn, improve yourself, check what's going on in the market, check what's happening. like Let's say I'm working at Telos, right? I'm always constantly monitoring what what chains are coming out there? Why are they better? What are they doing? like And not only just layer one, layer two, so you also check, for example, layer freeze, right? like
00:53:22
Speaker
And ah what are they bringing into the industry? Why are they ah like better or worse? So how can we capitalize? Can we work with them? like you know What are they doing different than us? So you always have to keep on learning to be able to actually apply that knowledge to your actual work. So of course, it can also for DEXs and stuff like this, it can be a bit different, but it's the same. DEX is even more competitive space, I would say, because you have so many centralized exchanges. right And essentially, like ah you have to be always on top of the like on top of the industry. like So you have to understand what are the trends, you have to understand what's happening, what's coming next in order to be able to kind of um yeah like take advantage of it. And essentially, like ah yeah kind of like As I mentioned before, right like this is very important for strategic planning also and also for partnership building. And ah you have to have the grasp of technical concepts as well. And like when it comes like ah to BDs, you have to be hands-on. You can't just, like ah for example, let's say you're a BD in DeFi or in gaming or whatever. right You can't just like be like, OK,
00:54:42
Speaker
read the white paper or read an article and understand how the protocol works. You have to try this stuff out. Like, generally speaking, when you join what tree doesn't matter what your role is, even if you're marketing, you have to try this stuff out. Like you have to connect your wallet, you know, you have to basically like, it's my view, but my opinion, and I strongly like push people for it. I'm like, yeah, you don't have to connect your main wallet. You can just create a burner wallet and try to connect and play around. Right. So like but you have to play around with stuff to understand how things are working, why they're working like this. And you realize that actually when you do that, it's much easier to grasp the concepts than when you are actually trying to read it out and trying to learn it from an article.
00:55:29
Speaker
because article doesn't just gives you like an overview and sometimes the overview can be very complex. you know In web3 we really like to come up with these complex articles, but then like at the end of the day, when we actually try the protocol itself, it's just like really simple. like And that's basically what I always tell to people. You have to also try, you have to like invest your time in it. And um yeah, and just be resilient, right? ah Because the industry is both rewarding and challenging. It has its ups and downs. like but in bull markets and I think like patients are like persistence and willingness to adapt in this space, like are the greatest assets. Yeah, I agree. You'd be surprised how many people that I speak to as a recruiter in web3, who don't have a wallet, they say that are really interesting getting into the space. And I go, okay, cool. If you ever traded crypto, you've bought an NFT, like what have you done anything about that? And they say, no, no, it's too risky for me. So I haven't put my own money into it.
00:56:28
Speaker
Exactly. I think, well, you want to risk your career on it, but you're not willing to risk $10 to just have a play around with but something, right? Exactly. And now it's not like, you know, you have to be afraid of the Ethereum gas fees or whatever. You have like a lot of cheaper alternatives where you can actually use like 20, 50 bucks and try things out, you know, learn things along the way. So you don't have to really go for the expensive alternatives. You have like really, yeah, you can go like for cheap alternatives and actual learn. Completely agree. Completely agree. So that's that's if someone is is stepping into the Web3 space then. What about if someone wants to be successful as a business developer specifically in Web3? You've definitely touched on a number of points so far, to be honest, over the last hour or so on on um your views on being a successful business developer. But if you could kind of summarize summarize that there within Web3.
00:57:24
Speaker
Sure. So I like the major stuff that I would summarize is that like, um yeah, doesn't matter, business developer, or whatever, like, if you're stepping into this space, like, just be bear in mind that work is not a job, it's a lifestyle. We always for business developers, I would always recommend to be super responsive. And as mentioned, right, be persistent, um like keep on learning and yeah ensure that like, basically, to Yeah, you you have patience and willingness to adapt. So you have to embrace like, you know, learning new stuff. And if you do that, you'll be successful. That's, that's how I see it. Like it's not a rocket science after all. And we all can learn everything. Like if we just decide to dedicate ourselves to it and we think like, okay, we have and enough time or
00:58:18
Speaker
passion for it, we will do it. So, and I think that that's like the important thing to keep in mind is that like, do I really like what I'm doing? So, am I interested in it? And do I want to pursue it, right? So, and essential to understand like, okay, I want to learn this. I really want to succeed in it. And I think that will be enough for you because it's like, it's not like you need someone to teach you. You have all the information available online. So, it's all about you, your persistence, your passion for the space, and your actually eagerness to learn. I like that. I like that a lot. And and and there are there any do's and don'ts about being a business developer? Probably more of the don'ts, because you've mentioned a lot of your advice on on how to succeed, but are there any key things that stand out to you that are just big no-no's?
00:59:04
Speaker
Sure. So for me, personally, maybe some people might might agree or disagree with it. But like, I always prefer to maintain transparency, whether it comes to the kind parties that I work with in the company or the parties outside. Right. So because I believe that transparency and trust is paramount in no matter which industry you are in, be it in traditional space or in the industry we're in currently. So that's like, I would always say like, do always that, like maintain transparency, be honest if you don't like something, mention it. And if you um think like, okay, so be responsive as well, but like general speaking, try to be transparent with projects. There's no need to lie, there's no need to like, you know, sugarcoat stuff. And um ah so, and the other thing like don'ts that I would say is like, um
00:59:56
Speaker
I mean, don't underestimate the complexity of your work. What I mean by that, like don't think that like, you know, everything. A lot of people actually do that. They think like, oh, okay, they by now they know everything and they have the knowledge and it experience and it's just like another gig for them. No, you don't. So ah like you try to keep on learning stuff as you go and try to improve yourself. And that's something to keep in mind. Like because I've seen a lot of people doing that mistake and I think that's just like, that's the wrong approach in my view. That's cool. I tend to agree, tend to agree. So Nicky, to finish up then, um knowing what you know now about business development, about Web3, about what you find ah passionate, is there any advice that you would share or could share for your younger self if you could go back to the start of your career?
01:00:56
Speaker
Oh, well, yes, of course. If I could tell my younger self, I think I would have actually started in this industry much earlier. So I would have skipped all the other part and just like I jumped into it like much earlier. That's, I think, the only advice I would give myself. Like, of course, like I could go back and say like, I wouldn't do this or do this or that mistake or whatever. But I think that's a wrong approach, because like in the end of the day, mistakes make us who we are. right so And we'll learn along along the way. So essentially, I do believe that it's really important to make those mistakes, like especially if you're in the startup. But generally speaking, like yeah I would risk more, I would say, and just jump into the space much more earlier than I have.
01:01:47
Speaker
Love that. Well, Nicky, thank you very much ah for your time today. You shared some brilliant advice over the time that that we've been speaking. I'm going to have to go back and and watch watch this episode quite a few times myself um and and probably implement quite a lot of things that you've you've said. So um yeah, thank you thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much. Jack was also speaking to you and thanks for this amazing initiative. I really hope that this helps the others in the industry as well. And yeah, like ah kind of people can watch and learn from it and take the best out of it. And I'm really thankful for you actually hosting me and really looking forward to the final product.
01:02:28
Speaker
Great stuff. Aniki, if people want to ask any extra questions, as you said, is there anywhere that they can go to to reach out to you or reach out to other business developers in in the web3 space? Sure, sure, sure. So we have this actual initiative that we're running, essentially with a couple of friends of mine, which is called the BDInwebtree. It's a telegram group, but basically we have like a bunch of BDs from different projects in that group. And essentially what we're trying to do is to connect people and to learn from each other. This is one. And the other way we like they can reach out to me is by my telegram. It's like at Nicki Chalabi. It's all together. so And they can find me on LinkedIn or actually
01:03:12
Speaker
on Twitter as well. So LinkedIn is Nicky Chalabi and on Twitter is at Max and Nicky. So they can message me anytime if they have any industrial related questions or they want to, for example, learn stuff or ask stuff they're not sure about. So I'll be more than happy to to help them out. I've done it in the past for other friends of mine and yeah, super excited about it. Sounds great. Thank you again and i'll I'll speak to you soon. Thank you so much. Have a nice day. Take care. Bye.