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00:00:01
So you want to be a Co-Founder? with Marouen Zelleg, Co-Founder of Crestal
38 Plays6 months ago
In this episode, I spoke with Marouen Zelleg, Co-Founder of Crestal.
We talk about Marouen’s career move from being a solutions architect to sales, business development, and now being a founder in Web3. Marouen explains his step-by-step guide to solving problems. The differences between business development in Web3, compared to Web2, and what it’s really like working at businesses like ConsenSys and Polygon.
Marouen talks us through his and Eric's project, Crestal. Marouen talked us through the challenges he faced when launching Crestal. We spoke about how to prioritise different tasks when launching a company. Marouen explains how you can build a successful career in Web3 and what you need to be aware of before joining the industry.
Behind The Blockchain is a series of conversations with leaders who have built successful products, teams and careers in Web3. You will get a chance to discover how successful individuals were able to accomplish their career objectives, the skills they have acquired, the mistakes and difficulties they encountered, and the advice they can offer you to help you reach your career aspirations.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Behind the Blockchain podcast. Today, I'm joined by Marwen Zellig, founder at Crestal. Marwen, welcome to the show. How are you? Thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm good. um I'm calling from Singapore today and I'm very happy to be chatting with you. Nice. Yeah. Thanks for joining me. So, Marwen, for people who don't know who you are, could you introduce yourself, please?
00:00:27
Speaker
Sure. um So this is Marwan. I am originally from North Africa, Tunisia. Grew up there, um studied in France. Then I got an engineering degree, a master's degree, that I've used to start working. And then um I had a couple of experiences across multiple countries. I worked a little bit in and the US and in Singapore. And in Singapore, i since actually kind of like a hub here, I got the chance to really cover different markets into Southeast Asia and APEC in general.
00:00:55
Speaker
um Generally worked like in technical software, sales, business kind of like a business solutions, enterprise, SaaS, et cetera. And then most recently, the last couple of years, I've transitioned into a blockchain specific domain. And yeah, today I'm actually a founder of a blockchain company called Crestel. That's cool.
00:01:18
Speaker
So you've worked at some pretty prestigious organizations in the past.
Career Choices and Silicon Valley Experience
00:01:23
Speaker
Could you talk us through the steps in your career journey that have led you to this point so far? um I think it's usually actually what you don't see. It's like the grind behind um the results. And so obviously when you graduate with a degree and you're like early on,
00:01:40
Speaker
um There was always a choice to go through standard and safe paths versus taking a few risks. So for example, and in and in my school, engineering school that I graduated from in France, most of my classmates, what they end up doing, they just go and join as a junior consultant at Deloitte or Accenture in Paris, and then they you know grind for years to get a bit through the ranks. um I did the interviews for those, but it didn't appeal to me. And so I was looking for something different. And that's when I reached out to the alumni, there was a gentleman, he's now, he had the startup and Palo Alto in the Silicon Valley, a small team of like 10, you know, limited runway, and he was willing to take a chance on me. So I took a chance, of course, on that career. And that ended up to be the most interesting choice. So they, you know, being in the Silicon Valley, of course, there is a lot of culture that you absorb from a startup builder, etc. I remember there was a frozen yogurt place downstairs. This was back in 2009. And it was just up and coming, the froyo craze.
00:02:38
Speaker
And Steve Jobs would come there and get his yogurt, actually, every every day at 4 PM. And so we would all come down from the office and then just try to speak to him. He didn't speak to anybody. um And so you know these slightly different environments that I am fairly certain they were more interesting than working in a big consulting firm and in Paris. um Then even with that company, you know could have stayed there, but then that one day they said, we are opening an an office in APAC. Would you want to be part of the three people who who want to go and explore?
00:03:07
Speaker
um I remember when they mentioned Singapore, I had to pause for a bit and then Google it. What is Singapore? And I saw a few pictures and I said, well, I think I can survive there.
Expansion to Singapore and Sales Transition
00:03:17
Speaker
Um, so obviously like went there and then it opens few other alternatives. And so by, by doing that work actually, um, through the journey and even in the role itself, like at first I was a, what you would call a solution architect. So it's like a pre-sales consultant. You would go with the salespeople and explain the solution and do demos and try to convince.
00:03:37
Speaker
Um, most people actually get comfortable in that role as well. And they stay for a long time. Um, but then I was lucky enough to join a, um, company called out systems. They do like a low code, no code, um, solution. And, um, they had the really good product. So it it helped me to really gain a lot of confidence when I go and pitch this product and and speak about it. Um, until one day I've said, well, how about I switch to a full sales role? Because that's a bit more risky. You have like reduced guaranteed salary, but then you have more commissions, et cetera.
00:04:06
Speaker
So again, taking risks, like really trying to get out of the mold. And then already in that company, in its own right, it was kind of a very successful company in the enterprise SaaS software. um And so switching from that domain to blockchain was another risk to take. And so I remember we were doing a a project in Brunei with the government for a decentralized ID. um And then my Web2 company was doing the mobile and web layer, and then Consensus was doing the blockchain layer.
00:04:36
Speaker
Um, and obviously I've been, you know, curious about blockchain and and participating a bit before. And so when I saw that project through, uh, I had to make the jump as the deal as one and, you know, being the team at consensus is, can I come over? Right. Um, so yeah, again, a bit of luck, a bit of, a bit of boldness and that opens doors. Um, so that's definitely my my recommendation.
00:04:58
Speaker
That's cool. and And going back to the the very start of your career, why, why sales? Why business development? What was the attraction there? It was about solving problems and then you can solve them purely by coding on a computer, but then there was an element of a human factor to it. And that's what attracted me to taking customer facing roles. Like you're really speaking to people trying to understand what they're trying to achieve rather than looking at specs or taking a theoretical idea and trying to implement it.
00:05:27
Speaker
which, you know, hardcore developers would, would be very good at. Um, and so being actually interacting with, with clients directly has always been enjoyable. Um, it works quite well to, um, to, to be a good salesperson. But again, as I said, in a sales role, you really, at the end of the day, that you have an ultimate goal, which is to get that money and give them your product. Um, business development gives you more tools, um, that you can do a bit more and then you can try to find different win-win action items, et cetera. And so.
00:05:56
Speaker
It's a natural progression for for me. It was like my initial problem solving desire, then wanting to solve problems by interacting with people rather than actually with systems and machine only. And then obviously expanding the ah solution space by not making it only transactional about monetary value, but more about you know growth metrics and validation of ideas and expansion, et cetera. And that's what brought us finally to the business development side. Yeah, for sure. And and was there somewhere that you went to learn those skills, to learn how to solve problems, to learn to be a business developer, to learn how to create those kind of win-win solutions. Was it something you kind of picked up over time? How did that go? So there is a class you pay for. It's $10,000 per month, and they teach you everything you need. um No, generally, actually, it's a combination of combination of things.
00:06:49
Speaker
um So I think the problem solving aspect is is one thing. um This is going to sound very boring, but it is it very true. It's like ah you know looking at a particular problem and having a desire to solve it, um being able to take a step back and looking at it from a wider angle to see different different ways of solving it.
00:07:07
Speaker
um The ability to communicate is like a key thing, right? So you cannot solve a problem by yourself. You might have the perfect solution, but to implement it, you need to bring people on board. So being convincing, being and um a bit more ah charismatic, I would say, with either that's teammates or clients being a trusted advisor. There is a a set of hard skills as well. Like nobody wants to interact with somebody who doesn't know what they're doing. and So if if i if I am selling you a tech solution, you better, I better understand what it does and then understand technology and and understand your problems. So it's part of like the empathy comes with understanding as well. um So it's not purely soft skills. I think like generally actually public presentation skills are very important as well. Like I remember pre-COVID we used to do a lot of, you know, go to the office and shake some hands and, you know, projector and wear your suit. Obviously after that with COVID it transferred a lot to Zoom calls. um
00:08:04
Speaker
I did, for example, have a friend who was doing trainings of public speaking. And I you know i spent a few hours with her reviewing you know very simple stuff. She asked you to record yourself. And then you go and review how you do it and so on. um And then some of the tricks and and tips were very post-COVID. So I was like, hey, this screen is a square. And you should probably use this section to formalize the idea number one and then transition to them. So these small things that are very different from the in-room presentation.
00:08:33
Speaker
um This also refers to the fact that you have to always keep updating your skills. So I've met a lot of salespeople, a lot of business development people, especially in the enterprise software who have been selling the same thing for 20 years. And, you know, they believe they're very good at it, but actually what happens is that they have a very good network. So they just, you know, they have people who will always buy from them, but then they see an up and coming technology or they see an up and coming company and they want to join it because they believe they're really good. They struggle because they have not been really updating their skills. They have not been open to learning a new methods and new things.
00:09:04
Speaker
um So that's also like kind of a characteristic that we'll go through. For sure. And also just on that, the people you're selling to change over that time as well, you know, different cultural, different generations and this kind of stuff like it gets.
00:09:18
Speaker
If you, if you don't, if you don't really, uh, take time to understand and learn who you're sending to and, and, and everything, it can get quite tricky. I suppose if you're trying to do it the old way and and people don't like maybe the hardcore sales cold calling, uh, approach anymore, they prefer that more kind of softly, softly insights kind of, of, of learning teaching approach, you know, it's, it
Web3 vs Web2 Sales Approaches
00:09:39
Speaker
can be quite difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I remember like, um, when I was in.
00:09:44
Speaker
was back in 2016 or so. like i I was responsible for a ah new market that I took over, which was Malaysia. And in Malaysia, there is like there's a lot of big companies, but one of the biggest companies is Petronas. If you watch Formula One, they have the the the cars. um You don't, okay. I think it's the Mercedes. Petronas. I'm not sure. um So Petronas is a big oil and gas company, and everybody everybody wants to sell to it. And it was so hard actually to connect with the leadership there. These are like old people, they've been there for years, very secure in their jobs. So like the the ability to disrupt them and and get something happening is very tricky. I remember I tried so many things. I've even like filmed myself videos, pitching them with a whiteboard behind, I was getting introductions. And to be completely honest, um it was hard to know who they are, like to to know what they wanted, because they are such an inaccessible ah people, both from ah from a maybe um
00:10:42
Speaker
uh, generation point of view, but also from the way they work. Um, so like in Web3, for example, and blockchain is very different. These are different personas that you're interacting with, it's trying to collaborate with. Um, like as a, as an ecosystem, it's very open and accessible. Like you can talk to amazing founders just like on the, on the side of a conference and they will be you know open to share their ideas and so on. You can connect with them. So, you know, being able to know who you are selling to or who you are partnering with, um,
00:11:12
Speaker
is ah it's kind of a hack. And that is not an easy way in the traditional ways. Like if I if i was i was selling, I don't know, Salesforce software again, um and selling to government agencies, and world it's it's a hassle. Like it's it's it's very difficult. But then lucky, for example, in new industries, whether it's AI or blockchain, it's a newer generation, it's a different breed of decision makers and players in the game. So you can really relate, at least from my side, they can relate better.
00:11:40
Speaker
But then I'm becoming a little bit older, so you know the newer generation could be something else. So that's why i'm I'm always trying to keep up to date with what's hot and cooking. And have you have you noticed much of a difference from moving from Web 2 into Web 3? Have you noticed a difference in the way that founders like to be approached, like to be sold to, that kind of stuff?
00:12:03
Speaker
I think the biggest difference is, um and I know this is very specific to web to enterprise SaaS software, because in many of actually the ah major software providers, their real target market is ah ah small call melt small to medium, but they they don't really target small companies. like They struggle to sell to startups. For instance, we used to have like this product that allows you to build your very robust mobile application within like six weeks. You have like a consumer ready mobile application with two developers. When startup founders see that, they just like go, I ah really want to use this. It can really short you know shortcut my ah my my my search for product market fit, but it's just like from a business model, from a contracting perspective, from a pricing, it was not ready to work with them. and so
00:12:55
Speaker
you end up being forced to target only the large enterprise where every decision is like five decision takers. You have process, you have RFPs, you have these complex um things that justifies a bigger spend. um Whereas in Web3, it's very startup heavy ecosystem. And so even actually the most successful projects for the for longest time, they are usually just a team of 20, 30 max.
00:13:19
Speaker
If you're trying to, for example, get a ah partnership on the infrastructure level or on the wallet level, um these are typically one or two decision makers that you just have to be, um how to say, aligned to their to their goals. um So it makes the sales process much simpler. And so like an enterprise or web two world, let's say, um you always actually have, there was a line that I go by, there is usually a 3.5 decision makers and ah in a deal. So if you are only talking to three, that is somewhere else, somebody who can screw up your deal at the end of the day. Whereas in Web3, it's such a flatter ecosystem in a way from a decision making and kind of alignment point of view. So it makes it a bit easier to interact and to reach consensus. Not to say that it will not change, of course, after a couple of years, as you as you know, the the space grows and you have more complex ecosystems now.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I've definitely noticed a difference. Um, yeah, I've been recruiting into web three for a few years now. Um, but prior to that, I was kind of strictly, strictly web two and I've noticed that in web two, I found it was very much, uh, cold calling and trying to kind of approach my, um, put my services in front of people that way. A lot of cold calling, a lot of emailing, um, this, this kind of thing. Whereas in web three, I find it's a lot more, um, it's a lot more personable. I feel in the way that,
00:14:41
Speaker
you know, everyone is on telegram, you can get access to one fairly quickly through that. But if you start to, if you start to try and approach them and really try and sell your services, ah I've noticed a lot of people get really turned off by that and and really dislike it. It's also that nobody has money to spend. dream of two hundred Nobody has, nobody has money to to pay for anything. So it's more of like a barter system, you know, you give me your service, I give you your service.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. It's, um, yeah, it was a tricky thing to, yeah, to get used to, I guess you kind of have to completely switch up the way that you've always done things to again, as you, you, you said before, uh, kind of keep learning and reinvent
Experiences at ConsenSys and Polygon
00:15:23
Speaker
yourself a little bit to make sure that you, you're approaching your market in the right way. Um, so, um, I'm sure, uh, I'm sure a lot of people want to know, um, what's it like working at such an influential company like consensus in, in web three?
00:15:44
Speaker
It's, um, I wouldn't have chosen a different place to start really the web three journey, to be honest. Um, like it has, it has this, um, it has this property or feel of, um, school in a way, you know, it's ah it's a university. It's like, there is a lot of, um, things that The outside world does not see, like for example, people know consensus about their product, you know, MetaMask, Confura, Corom, et cetera, and believe that that's all we do. But there is actually a lot of teams internally that are really researching interesting topics. So remember we had like weekly DAO days where our monthly was monthly.
00:16:29
Speaker
Mostly with DAO days where you have a dedicated day a month to go and learn about DAOs and participate in DAOs and form DAOs. It was not related to any particular business line or any particular product that we were kind of selling. It's just just a thing that we do. um There were sessions about tokenomics, treasury management, and how to do that. It was not a product that we sell either as well. So there was not actually internal internal learning that was happening. So it ends up um what up happening with such um initiatives is that there is a lot of ideations that come from within the teams. And so a lot of products will pop up, which is like, hey, this is new idea or this is new MVP that we want to go and do business development for to validate into the market and see if there is a fit for it or not. Some of these products spin into into their own company. Some obviously get sunsetted after a while. um And so, although and actually there was some solutions that
00:17:23
Speaker
had clients and there was revenue coming in. um As an organization, it was a very unique blend of that learning, experimentation, research, um testing out a few ideas in market or even internally. At the same time, it's also like ah such a big company. like at At the time I was there, it was 600 or 800 people. and so There is so many different characters. Each one has the particular skill that knows about something that would be completely mind-blowing for you if you go and speak to them and and learn about it. um So yeah, it was a really good, I think, space to get started in um that gives you that pluridisciplinary expertise in space. Like you're not just doing DeFi or a DEX or a wallet. It's just like a bit of everything.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that really then helps you to narrow down what you find most exciting, what you're best at within the space. like There's certain things that you really, really, problems that you really, really want to focus on. Sounds like a great place to be. Brilliant place to learn. You know, they give you those days to get stuck into that. That's what you're getting at small because you're so focused on trying to build things, right?
00:18:33
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it just actually creates kind of a good interaction between the different team members as well. So you easily become closer to certain people. So if you need to ask for help or so on, you have a reason rather than actually just, you know, pinging somebody out of the blue, trying to get them out of the bubble to to get help about a particular item. um So I think that's that's quite um quite valuable as a space. um Some people might say it's not very efficient, um which may or may not be the case. Actually, um I might agree a little bit with that. the fact that you have ah this kind of structure. ah But then at least as ah as ah an employee, as a team member, it was very positive and and fortunate for me to be actually in that space. Yeah, definitely. And then you left consensus and and ah moved to Polygon, right? and And had a stint at Polygon after that. Did you get as many differences?
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the reasons where where i why I left actually, i I wanted to try a focused project, right? So because having those different products and different teams and the consensus, it was great. But I wanted to see a particular focus. I remember at that point, I was looking at joining, for example, a DEX team, or there was a particular actually chain ecosystem that I started talking to. um And in my head, it was kind of a, it felt like a one dimension, I know this is oversimplifying, but it's a one-dimensional problem to solve. It's like, you know, we have a chain, we have to increase the transaction volume on it, or we have a DEX, we have to increase a TVL versus slightly more fluid multidimensional things to solve at consensus. And so Polygon obviously came up as ah as a great opportunity. um At that point, they not only have the POS that was very, of course, successful, still are, still is,
00:20:19
Speaker
um But then also they were starting to roll out the ZK technologies as different products. And so on my first, I think on my first week or or so, the Polygon 2.0 vision was declared with Polygon CDK set of products that is leveraging the ZK to go to market and create these roll up stacks. um So it's really felt like it's, um you know, one ship going into one direction, which is like the whole company was going to that direction.
00:20:46
Speaker
Um, and that, that was very different from consensus where you had multiple teams, multiple experimentations. Um, so that particular focus was, um, obviously, um, good to work within, um, and then have some, you know, defining the goals was very straightforward in a way. It's like, okay, for this to work, we have to achieve ABCD now making that happen. That's a different story. Um, but at least from that kind of, uh, focus of where the company is going, um, was, was, was very good.
00:21:15
Speaker
The other thing as well is that, um, I think a lot of the, like for me, at least in, in consensus, uh, for the two years I spent there, it was a transition between sales and BD, which I spoke about earlier, like the difference between sales and BD is two different things. And there was a growth journey there of moving from selling software to do in business development.
00:21:33
Speaker
Um, but I kind of felt like there is more to it to do. busy Like I felt I had a good formula, but there was a bit more to it. And then, um, the one thing that was being in the back of my head, just like polygon has a lot of BD, you know, web free BD experience. And there is a thing to learn there. Um, and indeed actually going to join that the team and seeing the internal processes, the, you know, the decision-making, the different metrics on which you measure a deal, whether it's, uh, it's worth it or not, uh, the partnerships that you select to pursue.
00:22:01
Speaker
Um, it was a lot of, uh, kind of, uh, unique, unique insights into how a web three business development super organization operates. And, uh, you can see today, actually a lot of the BD leads from polygon matter, you know, they scattered and they're just leading their own chains, their own projects, or, um, you know, that, that culture has spread a little bit. Um, yeah. So that was a very unique and different, uh, aspect between let's say polygon and consensus.
Founding Crestal and Company Vision
00:22:28
Speaker
and And obviously now you're yeah you've launched your own project, leading your own ah you're in project, Cristal. Did you always know you wanted to be a founder? Was that the was that the plan? um I always knew I wanted to be an inventor, which is a different thing, right? As a kid, I was always coming up with these like these invention ideas. um And then obviously um what you learn as an adult is that you know, the difference between an invention and a reality is a founder, is a company, is an execution, right? Take that idea into execution. And so obviously it was ah it was a natural progression to say, well, listen, if I want to really leave something into this world as an attempt to solve either a big problem or a very particular niche problem, then it's not just about writing an article about it or speaking about it in a bar, but really going and taking the plunge and trying to execute it. um And obviously, I think as you can imagine,
00:23:24
Speaker
that is so much more between actually that first idea day to getting sustainable, um you know, business out of it. um And that's what the journey we are going through at Crystal is called. That's cool. And could you, could you introduce us to Kristan in a little bit more detail? Um, sure. So I think, um, one of the things that I saw through my career is that there was a lot of actually, um, uh, how to say,
00:23:52
Speaker
software services, software solutions being sold left and right. And then there is always actually somebody who's wondering what's the best combination of services for for my particular use case. And you have a hundred other experts or companies coming around and trying to to pitch it or sell it, et cetera. And then what happened in the world web to world and to a certain extent still happens in in web free today is that all of these actually selling processes are still very non-measurable. So it's like, you know, I pitch you, I give you a bit of discount, I promise you certain things, and then you may or may not get them. It may or may not work for you. And so what we wanted to create is really and a place where certain type of services, and in particular, in this case, infrastructure module mo infrastructure services for the blockchain. So for example, storage or indexing or compute or any other type of
00:24:42
Speaker
unit of of of blockchain service um can be actually um in a way sold or distributed through Crestel and then it would be paid for by measurable performance. So the idea here is that if you are a project builder and you want to have some sort of infrastructure expertise or infrastructure tools that you want to use for your project, you would come to Crestel, you describe what you want,
00:25:07
Speaker
And then you have these different expert teams and service providers that will propose to you that they say, listen, with this combination of services, you will achieve goals, uh, such as maybe cost or speed or security, et cetera. So there'll be measurable promises. Um, we call them performance benchmarks. And, um, we try to build an ecosystem where if I choose your solution,
00:25:33
Speaker
I will pay for it or I'll pay you as long as it's meeting those performance benchmarks. And so in a way you keep incentivized to maintain good services, to maintain and update good quality of um software or whatever modular services you're giving me. And for me, I don't have to over commit at the beginning, but rather I'm rewarding you for your performance, you know, achievements essentially.
00:25:59
Speaker
So that's where we're building this kind of like a marketplace where anybody can come and describe what they want. They can get proposals. um There is a binding smart contract between the two parties. And then we have a network that validates that the performance is being met. So we're calling it a proof of performance. As long as these services are meeting the performance, then the business transaction is executing between the provider and the receiver of the of the business.
00:26:23
Speaker
I really like that. It kind of guarantees a real guarantees that the builders are receiving you know a certain level of value out of that and kind of creates a win-win between everyone. It keeps ah the quality of service high, makes sure the projects are getting value out of it. Yeah, yeah I think it's ah it's very good, especially in ah in a world where like you have the expertise distributed around the world and you may not know people that may be the best fit for you.
00:26:49
Speaker
And so there is a lot of actually these, uh, let's say called Upwork. I don't know if you use a platform for you, you can get some services from, from freelancers. yeah Um, we're not pushing it to that level, really focusing on things that are measurable, things that are you know easily quantifiable. Like, you know, you wouldn't, for example, get a UI design on Crestel. You wouldn't get a, uh, a blog written for you on Crestel, but you would get a software service that is, uh, measurable when it comes to its performance, its liveliness, its cost, et cetera.
00:27:18
Speaker
and then you would you would not necessarily trust the person or make any assumption on their on their quality of work, but rather reward them as long as they keep performing. Yeah, I like that. I suppose as well, that gives the opportunity for some some smaller players to be able to compete with some of the bigger ah bigger players in the market as well. Because if they can showcase it, they can you know keep the performance the same, but they may be slightly on the cheaper side of things, well You know, maybe, maybe give some market share. Yeah. What we were betting on, Jack is the specialization, right? So if I am a big provider of certain RPC or storage and whatnot, I pursuing scale and pursuing large distribution. So what happens, I usually try to optimize my offering and I try to standardize it. So it becomes easier for me to maintain and it gets more customers out there. And so the margins become bigger. So what this ends up happening with this, what ends up happening is that
00:28:16
Speaker
ah particular project can have some specific needs. And then these big providers will not even be able to meet them because, you know, I cannot customize my software for you. mexican So, exactly. ah and So having actually these kind of Intel coming into Crestel marketplace and then having enough, maybe more flexible, smaller players or will be willing to um take on that customization and consolidate. So maybe actually there is 10 projects who want the same customization. It helps us also discover new use cases or new customization.
00:28:44
Speaker
Um, so yeah, this is kind of the bet as well. So it would be hopefully a mix between big solution providers, but also more flexible, smaller solution provider. And the optimization is not only on costs, not necessarily only cheaper solutions, but maybe, you know, specific, um, use case fits or other metrics that are more important for me as a builder than cost. Um, and I'll be able to find my match on crystal. That sounds cool. how How far into the journey are you?
00:29:10
Speaker
Uh, so we started a few months ago. We have managed to raise our pre-seed round, which gives us a bit of funds to build our, um, our MVP testnet. Um, and so we are working on a few pieces of the puzzle. Um, the very first piece that, uh, hopefully by the time you're listening to this podcast will be up and available is kind of a, uh, a dashboard that allows you to see different performance metrics of, um, some popular services in blockchain today, some popular modular services.
00:29:40
Speaker
um some particular data availability. There's a few providers in the space. And so you'll be able to go and see how they can pair on different metrics, on different attributes. And then from there, decide perhaps what works best for you. um And then the second piece that is coming up as well is more of a the guidance. And so you would come and have that first interaction of saying, I'm building XYZ. What do you think is the best formula for me? And then you will get advices coming back to you. um Hopefully this will be up and running in in like the earlier part of this year, and then later in the year, you will be able to deploy these services. So for example, it's not only about getting the advice, but getting it running and then paying for it. It's an interesting journey, building the team, of course, building the product, trying to validate certain ideas without overspending on them from a product market fit. I would say we're still very early days, but it's a very exciting early days. Yeah, sounds really cool. I'll ah i'll be keeping a close eye over the next few months absolutely and beyond.
Challenges of Founding a Startup
00:30:40
Speaker
Sounds great. So, um, so see now you've, you've obviously been a founder for a few months now. Um, is there anything that really surprised you that you necessarily weren't expecting that any particular challenges or anything that you needed to learn and fast that you weren't expecting?
00:30:59
Speaker
Um, I think that is a few things, um, like, uh, some Some I suspected, but it's not the same. So for example, like building team culture in distributed remote workplace. um That's one thing that obviously I worked on before. In Polygon in particular, I had a team of about like five or six people. And so that was a bit of an important aspect of the day-to-day job. But then also, like all of these six people, they were doing kind of the same thing. They were all business development. So there is a lot of actually common ah points of interest that you can build this this culture around.
00:31:32
Speaker
you know, um they will all enjoy the same memes, for example. ah Whereas with Crestel, you're building a, you know, kind of a diverse team that is developers, that is marketing people, that is business development people, you know, different profiles. And so um you as a, I'm a co-founder on this project with Eric, um you're expected to kind of like, try to slowly establish some sort of company culture, which is very different from team culture. And so this is, ah this is something that I'm um discovering through and, you know,
00:32:00
Speaker
trying to come up with, of course, the right approach. There's no right approach, figure it out along the way. Uh, lucky enough, we are still small. Um, but then as, as a team members, uh, numbers grow, that would be different story. Um, the, the other aspect is, uh, obviously running, uh, running a business, running a business as a business owner versus an employee is very different. And so, you know, having to take these decisions about expenses and spends and planning the runway,
00:32:27
Speaker
And, um, you know, realizing that at first you don't get money from, obviously not from a salary, but you don't get money from deals. Like there is no product to sell. You're getting money from investors. You're getting, you you know, you're saving on money from partnerships and collaborations. And so it's, it's, it requires a lot of creativity into how to solve for this, uh, like runway, um, dilemma, which is like, you want to go fast, but not too fast that if you're going in the wrong direction, you might not have enough runway to to turn around.
00:32:56
Speaker
So balancing those things are quite interesting. Um, the other, and and probably the most important one is the amount of respect that I have for different functions within the company now. Uh, because always like when I work for organizations with a big or small, you have your colleagues who are doing marketing content, community management, you know, all of these, um, parallel departments to what you're doing, but it's not your job. And usually you just like can see the, you can see what they're doing and you have your opinion about it, but then Obviously with a startup, you are the one doing all of these. So all of these functions, I can't just go and let's say hire a community management manager right away, but I have to probably do it for a couple of months myself to get it up and running and then figure out what are the things, obviously speak to a couple of experts, get their opinion, get some advice, um but then soon enough try to hand over to somebody who knows what they're doing. And so doing that, you know, um initiation for for a couple of months on each one of these functions really opens your eyes to
00:33:54
Speaker
the difficulties of all these roles. Like I wouldn't say that is an easy job in a software company. Like all jobs are very, very technical. There is actually depth to it. There is a lot of science behind it. And so you really appreciate what, you know, what makes successful companies successful when you have all these departments happening at their high, executing at their highest performance with, of course, the right people. um And I believe that's that would be the hardest thing for a company to be successful. If you can have ah the right individuals in each one of these verticals that all come together to to make you like a recognizable brand, a good product, a desirable solution for for your customers. Yeah, for sure. You take those things for granted when you work for a larger company. Yeah, it's just like you know it's it's either happening or not happening. or's Actually, there is a lot of complexity to it.
00:34:43
Speaker
you know I'll tell you a funny story. Like we were event organization, right? So we we have ECC coming up. We wanted to do a small gathering for for our community. And so we went and looked at a couple of bars. We wanted to rent one and, you know, negotiate the food and the drinks and the number of people. We thought we had it all figured out. um And then because we were doing a hundred other things, there was a small detail that escaped that actually this is a change.
00:35:06
Speaker
And the one we were finalizing was in Berlin, Germany, where ECC is indulging in Brussels. So we almost actually finalized. and so obviously this is actually so So many small things that can make something go wrong. right And so there is a lot of, of course, responsibility for each one of these departments. head If I am an event manager, if I am a content creator, or if I am a marketing person, there is so many fine details and and small things that seem trivial. But I can imagine that somebody is overburdened or like hassled by their managers or bosses can be stressed into skipping them and can ruin the whole thing. And so it really requires a lot of focus to execute at the highest performance for every one of these departments. And how do you know what to focus on?
00:35:51
Speaker
Cause I think back to when I, uh, before I started, uh, working for, for myself and obviously launched an unveil a couple of years ago. Before that, I worked for a very large recruitment company and then worked for a smaller startup, but still all of our back office functions were taken care of. All of our systems were taken care of. The it just worked. Uh, all of our systems just worked. We just had to turn up, build relationships, do the day job, you know, find, find great people, introduce interact companies. And that was what we were doing, you know, 10, 12 hours a day.
00:36:21
Speaker
when I launched on Vale, I then ah day one, I think, right, oh, no, wait, I haven't got a CRM. Okay, so I need to go and find a CRM. Oh, wait, I haven't got a LinkedIn recruiter license. Okay, fine, so I need to get in touch with LinkedIn, get an account manager there, then then'd set up that up. I need a calling system, right? I haven't done that yet. I need an accountant. All this stuff, I need to set up my emails and I need to do all the spam filters on my emails and all this kind of stuff.
00:36:45
Speaker
and ah And then you think, right, well, actually, no, now I need to market and I need to work out a marketing strategy. How are people going to know about me? And then before you know it, you've spent hours and hours and hours doing everything that isn't necessarily revenue generating just to be able to set yourself up and get in front of the right people. It's quite hard to to prioritize it. And when you first start, it's fun to do all these things, but it kind of takes you away from having the focus on, right, what actually is going to make the business revenue.
00:37:13
Speaker
That's what I need to focus most of my time on. But you still need to do bits of the other things as well, right? it' It's hard. Yeah, you it's it's very tough. I mean, you described it perfectly, right? So there is so many things to be done. So I think what what we've been doing so far, um we'll see if it's the right approach or not. First of all, that's actually speaking to as many people as possible. So acknowledge that there is a lot of expertise out there of people who've done things they know it much better than you.
00:37:40
Speaker
and so Obviously, um, be very, very specific what your questions don't waste their time, but most people actually are helpful. So you you know, you would, I would speak to you and you describe how recruiting happens, right? How, how, how it goes. And so try to create a ah rough idea about how something works, first of all. Um, then the other very important, uh, decision to take is actually delegate versus do yourself. Um, and so certain things that you can,
00:38:07
Speaker
um you know, spend three days to learn and you will be shifted it and then you should not probably do that thing, but that thing delegated right away. Some other stuff that, you know, okay, it takes you maybe, you know, one hour of research, but then you can somehow figure it out um for a bit. um So that first decision and looking within your team, so especially if you are two co-founders or three co-founders, look at what you are good at, what your co-founders look at. And then, you know, okay, now we need a third person that can do this thing that none of us is good at or, you know, it's not it's not worth our time. um So that's the the other thing. and then the last bit, which is really the complex part, um being able to visualize kind of a multi-dial system whereby all of them are actually related in a way. And so you'll be able to push one dial to a certain point that you should not push it anymore because there's other parts that depend on it, right? So for example, you want to do a, so you want to write content. You want to write content and you want to create some content for about your your your ah your project.
00:39:03
Speaker
but then you do not have a good distribution place for content using a medium. That's not the most efficient part. You should have your own blog in the website. And so perhaps don't try too much content until you have your own blog on the website where the content directs back to your website. Then you have this content written, but then you don't have an SEO strategy. And so you're writing all this content and you haven't figured out what's your SEO strategy. Maybe you'll get an SEO strategist later on and they will say, well, these are the keywords, or these are the links you have to put in your article, and now you have to go back and rewrite all of your content. um and So this is just really within a simple item, which is content blog SEO, but expand that further, which is, okay, now I have product development going on. I have maybe a good employee that I want to hire for something, but then they would not be, they would have nothing to work on for, for a bit until that other thing is ready.
00:39:53
Speaker
And so, yeah, this is really the hardest part, which is being able to visualize as much as possible your business as a complex board and different things you have to move up or move ahead, but then also don't force something when it depends on something else that has not moved. So there's a lot of context switching. There is a lot of distractions, to be honest, like you're doing one thing and then switching to the other one and 20 tabs open. I have a whiteboard here always staring at it. I was like, okay, that and that and that. And yeah, hopefully,
00:40:21
Speaker
all goes to, of course, you have to have your master plan, right? So as these things move, am I moving towards my master plan? Is my master plan still valid? Maybe that needs to be revised as well. So yeah, I didn't give you an answer, but I described the situation. And then when you go to bed at night, you then stress about revenue. Because then he was like, oh whatever I did, whatever I did today did not get me any closer to your making revenue. But in fact, it does actually little by little. And we'll get you there.
00:40:52
Speaker
Absolutely. Do you think everyone can be a founder?
00:40:59
Speaker
I don't know. It's, of course, it's even like a personal question, like, do I have what it takes to be a founder? And I don't think actually kind of easy to answer that. It's a journey you have to jump on. And some of us actually will, you know, crack it right away first time, some will fail and give up, some will want to try it again. That is serial founders, that is actually people who did not even continue with their first ah kind of a venture. So um I think depending on what you're founding, yes, everybody can be a founder. Because now we think a lot about in terms of software technology and even actually specific crypto, but founder is really founder everything like you probably founded a home or you founded kind of a, you know, a bakery shop or if you know, you found a department within your company. um And so the scope of it is actually matters as well. Like I think
00:41:49
Speaker
You know, yeah, is can anybody be Nvidia founder? Maybe not, right? That's a very specific use case. But then if you really have the desire to go and build something and leave kind of a ah mark on on your domain or on the world if it it's a bigger mark, then yeah, there is usually, um yeah, there is a formula in which anybody can be a successful founder. Just really not to overstretch or maybe to to recognize what you're good at and what you're not good at. Yeah, so yeah, I don't know.
00:42:18
Speaker
um Can anybody be a crypto founder? Probably not.
00:42:23
Speaker
Can anybody be a founder? Yeah, I always wonder about that. You know, everybody can, but should everybody? I think is the the thing, right? That can versus should. and yeah Yeah, I was just finding quite an interesting question to yeah understand people's points of view on. Really? Yeah, I think actually one of the other like one earlier points, I also discovered the difference between um kind of a startup founder and a business founder, right? So you can, if you really enjoy building something, um creating a restaurant or a bakery is an equally challenging, you know, kind of a situation, which is you're not going to be a 100x company, but it's just about breaking even and making profit margins. So obviously, in tech, we we don't like that. like In tech, we want companies to be 100x, 1000x valuations of whatever they're spending, but
00:43:11
Speaker
um Generally speaking, like yeah as a founder, of the first step, whether you know you want to jump in it or not, is just realizing it like what kind of thing can I found? right um Am I finding so fundinging something for massive revenue? Am I finding something like a public good? Am I finding a charity? Am I finding a business where just my expenses have to be slightly lower than my my revenue? um And then many people don't want to do that, which is absolutely fine. like ah People do enjoy to work for for a company to have you know I don't know if you've seen those TikTok videos about like a day in the life of a product manager in Google, you know, going to the gym in the morning and having the latte and that's a very good life. It's a very nice life. Um, yeah, I don't want to believe, I don't want to remember how much salary I left behind to be able to do this. So it's like, you know, if you like being able to spend money and travel and enjoy and have, you know, 30 days of holiday year, then founder is definitely not, not for you. So there is better things to do in life.
00:44:09
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I agree. Uh, do you have any advice for anyone who say if they don't want to be a founder and they're looking to build a successful career specifically in web three, do you have any advice for someone on that? Yeah. Um, I think there's a few things that are important to do, which is, um, like web three is a technical space.
00:44:33
Speaker
Right. So this is a technical space. And of course, some of us are technical profile. Some of us are non-technical, but at the end of the day, you are participating in technology building.
Advice for Building a Career in Web3
00:44:42
Speaker
And this technology building, and unfortunately in the state that is today, it's very hard to use, but that should be probably your first step. Just go and use it. Just use the hell out of it. Right. Find, find something that you can use and ideally just find multiple things that you can use in, in Web3D.
00:44:58
Speaker
Um, because once you've used it for a couple of months, you, you know, I mean, if you, if you have a good head over your shoulders, you will know what are are the things to improve or other things to, to make better. Right. So I always give this, um, example that, you know, okay, you build a, you're building a great wallet. Um, but then you don't have a, um, customer support or you don't have a, you know, a growth mapping of your, of your clients. You don't have a particular.
00:45:27
Speaker
These support functions that we have in the SaaS business, and we dismiss them often. and It's like, oh, yeah, it doesn't need it. but Actually, there is a valuable thing that me, I might not be technical, but that's my specialty. I can go and make a good plan for how a user grows from like doing one transaction a day to millions of dollars or their maximum transactions. And so by trying these solutions as a first step, you would really identify what are the areas that click with you. It's like, OK, I tried 10 solutions, and I think actually customer support is one thing that needs to be improved.
00:45:58
Speaker
where I tried 10 solutions and I believe that writing more digestible content for users is the thing that needs to be done. um Or you're technical, so you try them and then you discover bugs and you know how to fix those. um And so trying is the first step. The other thing as well is that people often um struggle a bit with unstable jobs, right? The challenge in Web3 is that there is no job that is stable. Like I've i've seen in even companies like Consensus and Polygon, like cuts happen.
00:46:27
Speaker
you think everything's going well, then hey, you say bye-bye to 15, 20% of your colleagues. um So let alone actually joining startups with a runway of only six months or 12 months. Oh, this is not stable. You guys don't will not have money in six months or 12 months. Well, that's actually the risk to take in Web3. But then obviously if you really go into a team and you're doing a great job and you're doing your ah contribution and and participation in the community, I mean, we're fortunate that we have these conferences happening almost every week, somewhere in the world. And so you will see a subset of the,
00:46:57
Speaker
of the Web3 community here and there. Just be engaged, go out, ah make connections, be proud of your work, and explain what you're what you're doing, even in a smaller project. And you'll discover that compared to, I don't know, maybe your banking days or your SaaS days, it's a much smaller circle um in Web3. So it's easier to get access to advice. It's easier to get access to opportunities and then maybe find a better fit. I'm not saying to job hop, but you know kind of like evolve in your career and and and learn about other places where it could be better for you and you could be more more successful. ah Those are the main things, really. just
00:47:35
Speaker
you know, it's technology that is available today. So go and try it. Um, then also it's a community that is very accessible. Um, and so go and and talk to as many learn about, uh, don't be pushy, don't have an agenda as like, Hey, I'm looking for a job. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's more of a, you know, sharing common interests, common topics. And, uh, people would think like, I get, I get, I still get like, for example, things about, Hey, we are a team building this one.
00:48:02
Speaker
Can you recommend somebody who does this? And then immediately what comes to my mind, I don't have, of course, a Rolodex of people who are doing this, but comes to my mind that person that I spoke to about that field or spoke to about that particular domain. And I was like, yeah, this person or that person. Um, so I think from a career perspective, if you're doing things the right way and willing to take a bit of risk, as I said, um, then it could be, it could be a good space to, um, to access and to, to stay in.
00:48:29
Speaker
Not saying that it's for everybody as well, it has its own shortcomings as a space, but um it's ah it's a much more manageable. If you are genuinely interested about the space, it's much more um more manageable than finding a job in, I don't know, banking or software that is exciting to you.
00:48:46
Speaker
Definitely. And I definitely think it's it's a space that you can find find really interesting problems that you genuinely are are interested in solving as well. you know there's There's so much content out there about every individual project and what's being built. A lot of things are being built in the open, or there's communities around them where everyone's talking about it on a daily basis that you can genuinely find stuff that you really want to to solve.
00:49:11
Speaker
um which is quite, uh, yeah, it's quite a cool place to be if you can, you know, when, when you can do that. Um, yeah, you think about like web two and things like this. There's so many companies, so many projects, but it really necessarily know what, what a lot of them are like building in the background or the, the, the work that's going on. You don't get access to the team. You can't ask questions to the teams and, and this kind of stuff. Whereas in web three, you can. Yeah. The fact that, um, the fact is, uh, as a web three project, first thing you do is open a discord.
00:49:40
Speaker
Right. So that's, that opens the channel of communication right away. You know, um, as a founder, I think the first very first thing is to make social presence. I mean, I know that some teams are, um, anonymized, which is fine, but they still socially present. You still can talk to them even as an anonymous person, um, on discord or or Twitter. And so I think that kind of but desire to connect and, uh, interact with, with either your clients or other talents in your space to exchange ideas makes it much more accessible for.
00:50:08
Speaker
a person who wants to enter the the domain as ah as an employee. um So as long as you're willing to learn and interact, usually you you'll find something that clicks with you and that will make you really passionate. And it's really a passion project, like the whole of Web3 is a passion project. you could If you're pursuing money, you know, careers in Web2 will probably pay more. If you're pursuing stability, they're probably more stable.
00:50:29
Speaker
If you're pursuing social validation, like in Thanksgiving parties and and and family gatherings, probably telling them that you work for IBM is much better than telling them you work for a crypto company. um And so the reason why we do this, it's really kind of a passionate field where, you know, when you talk about decentralization, we talk about like, you know, changing the world or creating a new financial system or even a new kind of trust system and different use cases. These are human, you know, challenges that we are trying to solve using technology.
00:50:58
Speaker
um And so, yeah, if you explore it, I think you'll find something that would really excite you. um And then I believe that most people when they're excited about something, they can really accelerate it and become very convincing on why they should be contributing to that particular space. Absolutely. Is there anything about the industry that you'd love people to be aware of before they do join?
00:51:24
Speaker
ah This is recorded, right? So can I think it's hopefully temporary properties of the industry, the fact that um the sample size is very small. but So if you look at the number of people in this industry, it's smaller than other industries. And so what that makes is it actually makes concentration of certain characteristics or or or properties. and For instance, um it's a very engineering heavy community. but So you're
00:51:57
Speaker
The profile of people you talk into are, I joke, so usually is there actually an IT engineer or a tread fight biker? These are the two people that you have and in crypto. um And so obviously that could be a challenge for somebody who is a bit more you know um different from ah from a background point of view. um The other thing as well is that it's full of, of course, monetary ah gain pursuit, which leads to you know, scammers, shortcut takers, et cetera. Um, I do believe actually that because we've been around for a couple of years as an industry, now that concept of known, uh, reputable person or known scammer is starting to establish itself. Whereas is at the beginning is like, it was such shorts. Okay. You don't know. Um, and so that aspect, the fact that I think as a,
00:52:48
Speaker
If you're building a startup and web tool, it's going to be a while until it becomes a liquid asset. And then you can maybe take some stock options and or whatever versus on, on crypto, you can, you know, tomorrow make it the liquid business essentially. And you can, you can trade whether the token or the action of that business really creates that short term versus long term vision. And you might end up in the wrong space or ah with the wrong team or the wrong project. So these are things to be, to be wary of.
00:53:15
Speaker
um Yeah, and i I believe also like the remote aspect of it, like I almost don't know any crypto company. I mean, I'm sure they exist, but most of the crypto projects right now are are remote workers. Some of them are in the same city, which is great. ah Some are a bit distributed around the world. So that's actually a special environment as well for somebody to operate in. Not everybody is good and comfortable with remote work. um Those would be the the main thing. The fact that it's a very you know concentrated society in terms of like profiles and
00:53:46
Speaker
where the people comes from, um the aspect that that instant access to to monetary reward or incentives can make people act in an untrusty way. And then the last bit is the last bit is a remote work, really, um which is, you know, um I'm heading over to tomorrow to GM Vietnam, which is a conference in Vietnam. I'll i'll be seeing a lot of friends. I'm very excited. And I'm sure I'm going to be at the highest of my morale. And then you would go into a couple of weeks of nothing, right? You're working from your from your base. And so knowing how to keep that energy and excitement over a long period of times until the next gathering is actually ah kind of a, how to say, a psychology hack that you have to learn if you work in this space. Definitely.
00:54:34
Speaker
I think that's where the community side of it comes in as well. I think that's why it's why it's so important. You know if you're part of various different community groups and this kind of things then you know at least you can have those chats with people who are in a similar position. Um, cause I say, if I, I tried to talk to any friends and say, yeah, do you know what I'm working in web three crypto? Like this is the, this is the state of the industry. Like this is making me a little bit nervous about this part for whatever reason. It's very different to what they would necessarily worry or talk about for, for example. So actually having those busy groups when you are working relatively solo, um, I've like-minded people, I think is is super handy.
00:55:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's how I justify how much time I'm spending on Telegram and Twitter. you know just That's my yeah ah support support group. I'm networking. Yeah, that's really a support group to just kind of yeah keep keep the motivation going. And obviously, it's quite an open space, as we discussed, so you can get free to know what people are working on. And that inspires you. like Today, I had a and the call with a particular project. She's a friend, spoken to her since actually last year. So we caught up on what they're building and so on. And just like it just sparks inspiration. is like oh This is good. Let's see how we can fit it into our project. Let's see how we can collaborate on these things. So um I think that kind of constant interaction with the community, even if you are remote, is quite important for a healthy work environment and for, of course, good innovation. Yeah, completely agree. And if you if someone is is listening to this and thinking, you know what, I want to become a successful head of business development ah within the Web3 space specifically,
00:56:11
Speaker
Any advice that you could give them on, you know, key traits or, or, or approach or whatever it might be, how do you become really successful at that in web3?
Business Development Success in Web3
00:56:22
Speaker
I think there is two types to be honest, like that is, um, for example, uh, head of BD or at the growth within a project. So often that's kind of an individual contributor role. So you you are really mastering what that project is doing. And you have certain techniques in terms of like seeking growth or establishing partnerships.
00:56:38
Speaker
You may have a network of people that you know, or you might not have it, which is fine. You can always get it, as I said, through easy access, as long as you have a good value to but to bring to people. um So that's one particular role, which is an individual contributor. And then it's so thinking about it not as a sales role, but it's more about like ah business development. You have something that you want to validate.
00:56:58
Speaker
um One trick is I always actually give value before I take one. So, you know, I i always somebody, for example, I speak to them and they need a particular solution for something. It doesn't matter if it's coming from me or from another protocol. I will make those introductions. I will let people actually connect with other people. That kind of multiplies the effects. And so be valuable. um Find things that are helping other people. And then obviously, if you are strategizing enough, then you know that down the down the way it will lead to maybe you be becoming in useful as well. So it creates a two way collaboration.
00:57:30
Speaker
um So that's easier. Now, and in a big organization, let's say as ah Polygon or other protocols, head of business development becomes a bit more of strategic role. So you have actually very smart people who are executing within country or within a vertical. And then what you're doing is like you're looking at that space, whether it's geographic space or, ah or kind of an industry space, and you you try and actually to strategize and, you know,
00:57:53
Speaker
All right, what's happening? What's going on? Okay. What is optimism doing? Is arbitrary from doing who's actually reading the RWA narrative? Who's reading the gaming one? And what can I do to position myself? Is it worth it for me to position myself in that space? So a lot of actually hypotheses that you will be making, and then obviously you want yourself and your team to go and test it out.
00:58:10
Speaker
um, and then validate it quickly. Um, and you know, playing that long game. So two different roles recognize that at the beginning. Um, and obviously you can grow from one to the other, right? So if you join a project at the beginning and very successful project, then obviously that team will grow. Um, and so you could then evolve your skills and become more on the strategy level versus you can say, you know what, I don't want to, you know, I want to stay at what I'm doing. I'm really good at this. I enjoy it. So I'm going to continue, which is absolutely fine as well. Then you probably have a better life that way. Um,
00:58:40
Speaker
So yeah, those are the general tips really for it. That's great. Yeah, I really liked the part of of you know giving value before expecting to to receive any, to be honest. ah That's one of the one the main things and one of the main, ah my main ethos really from launching my agency, you know I just wanted to focus on adding as much value as possible, ah helping as many people as possible, and then yeah you know letting everything else kind of look after itself.
00:59:08
Speaker
um And I feel like it comes it comes naturally right after that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think if if you go into these types of roles with the wrong intentions, it can be quite clear ah to to people really that you're just trying to kind of take, take, take, and you're not really ah helping in in any way. it become It's very, very apparent when that happens. Agreed.
00:59:33
Speaker
so um So we're in, so obviously you said some some brilliant advice today. ah a lot of A lot of tips, a lot of advice.
Personal Reflections on Career Fulfillment
00:59:42
Speaker
It's great to listen to your your journey. um One question I always like to ask everyone, knowing what you know now about business development, about sales, about leadership, about founding a business, if you could go back to the start of your career,
01:00:01
Speaker
What advice would you have for your younger self just starting out? I don't know. I wouldn't do it any different. It has been great. ah um No, I think actually just to... It's a very difficult question. I was actually to always pursue what really entertains you the most.
01:00:30
Speaker
Obviously, it depends on where you are in your life and in the stage. um I am in my late 30s right now. And so I was always as like, did they have enough fun doing what I was doing? um And so it's not so much about the role. It's not um so much about the pay. It's not so much about the the nature of the job you're doing, whether it's a developer or a sales or whatever it is. um I think maximizing that enjoyment part um is what matters the most.
01:00:58
Speaker
Um, at the beginning of your career, I remember like my first salaries were like miserable. And then every, every year you get like that little bit of bumps, like, Oh, wow, I'm making it. And then you, you're pursuing essentially a comfortable, uh, lifestyle, um, to a certain point. And I think that's very from one person to the other, of course, depending on, on, on what you want to do in life. Um, but then you quickly realize that it's not very important and that you can, you know, I'm exaggerating here, but you can live off $1,000 as well as you can live off $10,000. Like it's, you know, you just expand into that, that monetary gain.
01:01:28
Speaker
And so at one point in your career, you realize that, okay, pursuing maybe the monetary gain is not the most important thing, unless of course it's a billion dollar. That's different. But if it's a salary, it's a salary, right? um And so yeah, maximizing the fun element, maximizing the satisfaction, like am I satisfied with what I'm doing? um And I believe actually most of my career, I did follow that. um Maybe i I waited a bit too long in certain,
01:01:53
Speaker
um like transitions than I should. So I would have probably said, make it faster. um But then overall, as long as you are pursuing that, okay, is this fun for me? Am I having, you know, enjoying what I'm doing? Am I feeling fulfilled? um If not, then just take a risk. Take a risk and switch to something else.
01:02:12
Speaker
um And, you know, think of yourself as this, uh, adaptable person and you will find a lot of things to do rather than just, criing confines like oh you know, the only thing I do is how to do this one thing. So it's impossible for me to do that or that actually, yeah, I think it's a self discovery journey. So take a risk and then find always something slightly different, slightly more to do. And then if you enjoy it, continue doing it. If you don't just switch something else. I like that. It's good advice. Absolutely. I'll try to tell it to my kids.
01:02:46
Speaker
Well, ah well maen thank you. Thank you very much for taking the time to have a conversation today. Uh, yeah, really, really enjoyed it. You know, I've, I've learned a lot. I'm going to enjoy listening back to this and and taking some notes and yeah, trying to implement some of this, uh, myself. So yeah, thank you very much for taking the time. Yeah, I would love to thank you as well, Jack. I mean, these, these opportunities, the main reason why, um, I love doing this is also because it makes you learn about yourself, right? So this was kind of like a free shrink session.
01:03:12
Speaker
So I would enjoy also listening to it back. and so You said it was free. There's nothing free, but you don't start with that. But yes, so the idea is is really that it's a good chat to have these kind of conversations, whether it's actually recorded or even with ah with a friend. um And that helps you really realize a few things that maybe you took for granted. um So I really appreciate the opportunity and yeah um hopefully to to see it and recording and then also to catch up with you very soon.
01:03:44
Speaker
Sounds great. Perfect. Well, thank you very much. And i'll I'll chat to you soon. Thanks, thanks.