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CEO of Zeru, Ashutosh Sahoo - How to be a successful Web3 CMO
39 Plays5 months ago
I spoke with Ashutosh Sahoo, Founder of Brands& DAO and CEO of Zeru Finance.
Ashutosh has had a fascinating career, starting as a software engineer, then moving into marketing and growth with PolyTrade, REEF and Router Protocol, and now the founder of a DAO called Brands&, launching projects such as Zeru Finance.
Ashutosh shares some brilliant tips on marketing and growth as well as how to launch a project as a founder plus how to avoid some common mistakes. He spoke about how to build a successful career for yourself in Web3 and how to become a better CMO.
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Transcript
Ashutosh's Blockchain Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Behind the Blockchain podcast. My guest today is Ashutosh Suhu, founder of Brandzand. Ashutosh, welcome to the show. How are you? Hi Jack, I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me here. Yeah, thanks for being here. So Ashutosh, for people who don't know who you are could you introduce yourself a little bit please
00:00:21
Speaker
Yeah, sure. ah So I've been in the blockchain space since 2017, I would say, ah as a retail investor. But in 2020, kind of decided to take the plunge full time. i Started off building Polytrade, which today is you know one of the popular RWA dApps marketplaces. So that is how I started off you know in the in the blockchain space.
00:00:50
Speaker
But while you know I was chief of growth, while we were building Polytrade, I realized that the infrastructure ah layer is not yet ready for real world applications to thrive. So I spent some time in ah you know on the infra side. So I was with Harif, which was ah you know a substrate based layer one.
The Role of Interoperability in Blockchain
00:01:12
Speaker
um you know doing was doing pretty well, um ah similar to Polkadot, but it was a substrate solo chain. um Then I was a part of Router as the chief of marketing and strategy, so pretty much led the pivot from a proof of authority bridge to layer one blockchain, solving specifically for interoperability.
00:01:35
Speaker
because the number of blockchain ecosystems that were evolving wasn't funny so there had to be a common standard and interoperability ah was important you know and back in the days it was a novelty today if you look at the industry interoperability is a norm right it you know it is assumed that you know everything has to be interoperable everything has to be seamless but back then you know it was a novelty still early days solving ah So after router, when we got closer to the bull market, what I realized is there are so many builders who are building applications, but very few people to actually guide them. And that that is when the idea of DAO came to my mind. So I said that if we can assimilate talent from all across the globe,
00:02:27
Speaker
from all the functional areas that a DApp or a protocol needs to be successful. ah Be it on the product side, be it on technical audits, be it on blockchain architecture, be it marketing, business development, finance, treasury, tokenomics.
00:02:43
Speaker
Then that could be a solid proposition for builders because ah you know as a builder, you spend a lot of time building a dApp and then you find the right team, you find the right people to actually grow the dApp.
Creating a Global DAO Talent Pool
00:02:59
Speaker
Whereas as a builder, all you are supposed to do is focus on you know solving a problem and write the code.
00:03:05
Speaker
And it's almost like business as a service, right? So if we can ah take part of all other components, does that make your journey faster? And we found a very good reception. you know A lot of people ah found merit in what we are we are doing because in today's market, I mean, you're you've been in the talent sector yourself, right? And you're running it oh a recruitment agency.
00:03:34
Speaker
So you know how difficult it is to find good talent and how difficult it is to make the talent and the organization meet. right So that is what we are trying to do with the DAO in the spirit of the gig economy.
From Software Engineering to Marketing
00:03:52
Speaker
ah So yeah, the DAO is currently, I think about four or five months old, but coming doing really well. We have about 97 members in the DAO contributing in various capacities across various functional areas. So yeah. Sounds cool. Lila, I'll get you to go into that in a little bit more detail.
00:04:14
Speaker
ah in a few minutes if if that's all right. um and if you If you could take us back to before you got into Web3 and blockchain, were you always in growth and marketing? Was that right from the start of your career? right now yeah I started off as a software engineer with Hewlett backward, but this was way back in 2005 so have close 20 years of working experience. ah But thereafter, you know I worked with organizations like Trump, Johnson and Johnson, ah you know, ah some real estate, ah you know, organizations like Shopa and Lothar. So I have mostly been in, you know, strategy, business development and marketing functions, but definitely started off in in tech as a software engineer. Nice. what What made you make the move from being a software engineer into marketing? Because that's not the usual career trajectory, right?
00:05:16
Speaker
Yeah, it is not. ah But as as a software engineer, I found that we were eventually developing software to solve for a business need, right? So our clients, specifically my client, the team which I was working with, um they were serving Proctor and Gamble and Amcor Pacific brands, you know so some consumer goods products. And what I realized is ah the business side of things is equally important because that is where the consumer directly gets in touch with with you. That's the moment of truth.
00:05:55
Speaker
ah Software back then, it was kind of an enabler. okay But with blockchain, with advent of Web3, all of that changed. So now software is directly consumer facing. So yes, I had to wait for 15-20 years. But I mean, after if in 2005 we had Web3 and a blockchain, I would never have part of doing masters in business and getting into the business side of things, you know marketing business development or strategy.
00:06:26
Speaker
so That's cool. Obviously, you've had some, as you just explained, had some some pretty cool positions within the Web3 space, you know Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Growth Officer, now founder of Brandsand.
00:06:40
Speaker
Are there any kind of key skills that you've learned throughout your career that have really helped you to achieve those roles or achieve the position that you're in now? ah Yes, I think empathy and understanding the consumer. right Understanding the consumer is followed by understanding the market because you need to deliver you know as a consumer goods product or as a blockchain protocol what the market wants and for that you have to be able to identify the need gap that is existing or you know should be able to create a need if the gap doesn't exist.
00:07:19
Speaker
right and that
Web3 Challenges and DeFi Innovations
00:07:21
Speaker
I think is the most important skill, ah but easier said than done because ah to know what consumers want, you will have to ah interact with hundreds or thousands of them. And especially in Web3, that is difficult because ah you know not everyone is fully boxed.
00:07:39
Speaker
ah I mean, even in web 2, you know, ah research is actually ah not that easy. Okay, so that is why you have specialized research agencies like AC Nielsen. Yeah, and brand union, etc. Right.
00:07:54
Speaker
So ah ah research is never easy, but it is necessary because consumer is not going to come and tell you that, hey, this is what I want. This is what 100,000 people like me want. Please build this. You will have to find it out. And that, I think, is the most important skill. Everything else can be acquired, of course.
00:08:15
Speaker
and theories. i mean I'm also a professor in the marketing and strategy area. right So there is a lot of theory in every area of marketing, every area of business. But ah you know I always believe in simplicity. And in simple terms, understand the consumer, articulate the need, and solve it meaningfully with the product. like Those are some very, very important things to be taken care of. some That's some good advice. And if someone, this might be quite a difficult question to answer, but if someone is wanting to learn how to better understand their customer and learn that whole process, have you got any recommendations on where they can go? Is it just a trial and error type situation? Are there kind of certain courses or books or anything like this that you think people should be aware of if they're looking to to develop that skill?
00:09:14
Speaker
I think it is all about um observ um observing. right You need to know what is your consumer doing today. right I mean, a bit old ah example, but ah but a very relevant example, ah like the boot of the car. right So I don't know, was it Volvo or was it Saab? I don't remember the brand. ah But nowadays, the boot of the car is hydraulic. right It's probably even remote control But pass press button yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean ah back back in the days there were no buttons. You had to manually twist the lever, hold the boot of the car open and while you're keeping the lid open you needed to put your stuff in there.
00:10:02
Speaker
because automobiles cars were primarily designed for men. right So there was never a need of convenience when it came to the booth. Until the product manager or marketing manager of Saba. Apologies, I forget the brand. ah you Probably Saba or Volvo. I don't remember which one. ah So their product manager actually observed user behavior in the parking lot of a supermarket.
00:10:40
Speaker
And they saw that there were a lot of mothers who were visiting the supermarket and not necessarily the men. And some of them actually had a pram ah with a baby. And it was literally impossible for them to operate a manual o boot, boot lid.
00:10:58
Speaker
while holding a pram and a few bags from the supermarket. And they were like really struggling with it. And that is where the whole idea of a hydraulic system in the boot came in so that when you opened it, it stayed open until you closed it.
00:11:16
Speaker
Now, that car really became very, very popular with this specific consumer segment, right? And similarly, there is another more recent example, like Gillet, right? When they come up with their you know razor innovations, they started with one blade, and then they said that two blades are better than one, three blades are better than two.
00:11:39
Speaker
ah five blades are better than three. But in all this, all the process, they realize that there is a there is something that they are missing. Because when they observed the shopper, so the buyer of the Mac three, or the fusion, he was also buying a single blade razor. And that really baffled the marketing manager.
00:12:02
Speaker
right or or the research agency. And now why are they doing that? I mean, they are choosing a three blade razor, which is far superior, but why do they need a single blade razor? And then they went all the way to actually observe men shaving in their bathrooms. And they realized that this line over here, you cannot get a sharp line with a three blade razor. It is always graded.
00:12:28
Speaker
And then they put a single blade behind the three blades. So you had blades on both sides. So you would have three blades on one side. And then you had a single blade on on the back to get the precision.
00:12:41
Speaker
So ah you know the products that we use in our day-to-day world, we often take them for granted. But they have been ah results of you know very specific and very very, very tactful observations by some of these product designers, marketing guys, research guys. and i And even if you look at Web 3 today,
00:13:05
Speaker
ah So there are, I mean, if you look at DeFi specifically, right, I won't talk about meme coins and NFTs. But if you look at ah ah DeFi today, most of the TVL is coming from lending and borrowing protocols, right, like Aave. But if you go one level deep, you see that there is actually a lot more money length than there is assets that are borrowed.
00:13:33
Speaker
And that underutilization rate is as high as 69%. So imagine that there is $100 billion dollars worth of TVL, but only 37 to 40 billion is actually utilized. Now, can you imagine the amount of economic activity that can be created if we actually improve the utilization rate to say an 80%?
00:14:01
Speaker
It is going to quadruple the economic activity. right Now, that this is a data point. right What I'm saying is the utilization rate on D5 protocols is only yeah you know is less than 69%. That is a data point. But what is leading to that data point? And when you dig deeper, then you realize that
00:14:28
Speaker
Because there is no clear purpose for a borrower, and because the borrower actually doesn't know what to do with a borrowed amount, sure, there is some place where I can borrow something, but what do I do with the borrowed amount?
00:14:44
Speaker
So unless you give a single UI, a single platform where he can lend, he can borrow and do something with the borrowed amount. And that do something here in simple terms could be, you know, make money from the borrowed amount, you know, deploy it into cool strategies. So unless it is available on a single platform, the growth of DeFi is always always going to be choked. So it is not always you know necessarily about technology or, ah you know, upgradation in infrastructure or improvement. Sometimes it is all about user behavior and this is the biggest use case in Web3. So I think you will, and mean you know, one needs to really, really
00:15:26
Speaker
look into user behavior, buyer behavior, yeah you know, understand what the audience is doing, why are they doing, ask those questions, ask those people, you know, in your closed circle. Because, I mean, in Web3, research is very difficult.
00:15:40
Speaker
right Because nobody a you know lot of people prefer to be anonymous or pseudonymous. ah you know It's impossible. you know In Web2, you can still appoint research agencies and get to your consumers. But in Web3, at least as of today, it's very difficult. So all you can do is ask friends, families, people who you know. But even that would lead to a lot of interesting observations. So you know listen a lot. Watch.
00:16:10
Speaker
uh you know absorb you know that that is the core skill here i would say that's a good skill to learn it sounds like you've just come up with a new project uh where you can learn and borrow and then use that uh that borrowed time as well Now, I mean to be to be honest several project ah you know several builders are trying to solve this problem. Yes, one of the projects that the DAO is working with is trying to address this you know this problem it is called
00:16:41
Speaker
ah zero finance ah The public testnet is going live tomorrow. Yeah, we are all looking forward forward to the reception, see how see
Community Focus in Web3 Work
00:16:51
Speaker
how it goes. Because a lot of efforts have been put in by the builders to really get everything in you know in the in the same place.
00:16:59
Speaker
ah but I would say that, ah you know, the core of what zero is doing is more credit infrastructure. And this is one of the applications of a robust credit infrastructure right today there is no credit infrastructure which is, um you know, available, you know, in in web three.
00:17:18
Speaker
no A lot of people have tried to solve that, but it always gets stuck at KYC, right? Because people are hesitant to do KYCs in Web3. And if people are not willing to do KYCs, how are you going to implement a civil score like you have in Web2? It is not possible, right? so can you actually so So the problem here is, again, the fact here is credit infrastructure in Web3 is lacking. But why is it lacking?
00:17:48
Speaker
It is because people don't want to or do KYC. People don't want to divulge who they are. So which means you should be able to come up with a credit infrastructure that does not rely on KYC. So how do you do that? Now that is the problem statement to solve. okay Everyone knows that there is no credit infrastructure in Web3. A lot of people are trying to solve it in a lot of different ways. But if you know that the What is the real cause for ah you know the lack of credit infrastructure? It is actually oh the unwillingness of people to do KYCs. Now, if you can come up with a credit infrastructure or an algorithm which can give a credit score without doing the KYC, that is a game changer. So that is what you know Zero is trying to do. ah Very excited about it. Let's see how it goes. Yeah, that's cool. Is that the same as ah Zero Lend?
00:18:46
Speaker
Is that part of the same project? that definite Again, zero ah Zero Lens Spark, ah I think a few other protocols are also trying to solve for this use case. But ah you know there are people who are solving for credit infrastructure. There are people who are solving for zero collateral loans. There are people who are solving for ah DeFi strategies, how to ah seamlessly and in a user-friendly manner deploy complex DeFi strategies.
00:19:17
Speaker
But all of it in one platform, I have not seen anyone do it. So Zeru is kind of bringing all of it together. So let's see how it goes. ah probably Probably Gearbox. Yeah, Gearbox is you know again doing doing really well because they are able to address two of the three problems here. And I can see that their TVL is also picking up significantly. So there is a market.
00:19:44
Speaker
ah there There is a user base for these kind of products. I think Ivan ivan is the founder of Gearbox, right? He's also the founder of Lobster. Also, I think that is another protocol which is doing well, which is operating in a similar space. ah Again, there are ah a few other zero collateral lending platforms, but they are mostly institutional. You have Goldfinch Finance, which is fairly well known. And then you have, I think, Maple.
00:20:10
Speaker
So, but but, but they are mostly institutional. They are not retail focused. Okay. Fair enough. Well, uh, yeah, I'll be keeping a close eye on, uh, on zero. You say that the test that's going out tomorrow. ah yeah lazida wiington ety zie are you Yeah. Zero. Zero. Okay. Nice. I'll, uh, I'll have to check them out. Yeah.
00:20:36
Speaker
So we when you when you started your career, obviously you're a software engineer, did you always know that by the end of it, you wanted to be you know the founder of a business or you know helping other businesses with their marketing and growth and and being in that ah kind of real senior leadership position? Was that always part of the plan? No. No, I think when I was a software engineer, all I was thinking was, OK, when do I get out of work?
00:21:05
Speaker
catch a game of cricket or play some badminton with friends. Yeah. I mean, honestly, no, I had no no clue, no idea. I wasn't even thinking about those things. You know, when you are 21 or 23, you think about different things in life. I mean, today's, I mean, it is honestly impressive. oh You know, I'm really impressed about the clarity that today's 21, 23 year olds have.
00:21:33
Speaker
Because they have this that, OK, I want to be a founder in DeFi. I want to be the founder of an infrastructure platform that does this. The amount of clarity I think today's you know youngsters have, 21, 23 years old have, is amazing. And it was nowhere close. We were nowhere close, I think, had software for today's generations, really. Yeah. I tend to agree, to be honest. I think at 21 years old, I was going out four nights a week and really just bothered about the weekends and and that was pretty much it, you know? It's only later on of that change. Yeah, thinking about who the next date would be and all of that. Yeah, exactly. when When did that change for you? When did you think, you know what, I really want to found my own business or I really want to become a leader of a business?
00:22:36
Speaker
I think, I mean, there was no clear time. I think it was a very logical progression or a very slow transition, I would say. um When I realized that, okay, I have created sufficient value for sufficient ah businesses, ah right? So even as the CMO of Shobha or the executive vice president for Trump organization in the Asia Pacific region, region What were we doing actually in those roles? We were essentially growing the top line of the businesses that we were a part of. Now what we are doing at brands and is also the same thing. In a way it's a logical progression. So I have always been in roles which have grown businesses, which have grown enterprises.
00:23:28
Speaker
And ah now we are doing it in the Web3 space. ah Definitely the call for the community is ah is is a key difference. In enterprises, you are working for the founder or on the board of directors or you know the or the organization that you are a part of. In Web3, you are actually working for the community.
00:23:55
Speaker
And ah that is primarily you know one of my attractions to work towards Web3 because it is by the community, for the community.
Startups' Common Mistakes and Solutions
00:24:04
Speaker
And when I started off in Web3, and even today, right I volunteer for a lot of side events to ah host main events to you know help in organizing events. And that gives me a lot of pleasure, a lot of satisfaction.
00:24:21
Speaker
like So, I've been volunteers at several, ah you know, ETH conferences, and it makes you feel, you know, ah like a part of a common question.
00:24:34
Speaker
and If you have the skill sets of growing your business, you can apply the same skill sets to help builders grow their protocols in the process. You're not only growing the business, but you're bringing utility to the the community. And I think you a very smooth transition that way. Yeah, for sure. yeah You must have spoken to tons of founders and advised, tons of of founders and and um people working in in pretty
00:25:05
Speaker
ah senior positions in projects. Are there certain or are there very common mistakes that you see a lot of people make that you can come in and kind of fix straight away?
00:25:18
Speaker
ah One of the most common things which happens is the synergy between the business and tech side of the organizations. So yeah, either the founder is a business partner, he has got good business skills and sees the tech team as only service providers. So in which case, ah some of his suggestions may not actually make sense to the tech team, because while there was might be good business suggestions, they might be impractical to be implemented in board or there might be some underlying flaw in logic.
00:26:00
Speaker
The other way is also true. You have tech co-founders who think that ah business is no big deal. ah you know It's all about the board. And therefore, business is a service provider. Now, if either of it happens, it's a problem. you know Tech cannot see business as a service provider. Business cannot see tech as a service provider. And it is like running a good restaurant. If you want to.
00:26:27
Speaker
build a restaurant to last, you have to make your chef a 50% business partner. they Unless you give equal stakes to your chef, your restaurant is not going to make it to the Michelin guide.
00:26:45
Speaker
So ah that's that's ah that's the same thing. That's one of the common things which I have observed. The business co-founders tend to say that, oh, I am stuck with the wrong tech people. The tech co-founders tend to say that I think our business team needs improvement. Our PD is not doing great. Our marketing is not doing great. great And if both of them can come together and go create, the output is ah you know is ah is amazing. So teams which have successfully cracked the synergy between business and technology, they are the they are the protocols that are thriving today.
00:27:21
Speaker
Interesting. And with brands and you tending to find that you're helping out more from a ah marketing and growth and business perspective or more from a ah technical perspective or, you know, as a real mix of both.
00:27:36
Speaker
ah Currently I think it is 70-30. 7 out of 10 projects are focusing on the business side of things. But when I say business side of things, product market fit is also a part of it. so Some of the protocols that we work with, we have actually redesigned their complete go-to-market strategies there. We have ah added functionalities into the product, even helped in developing some of those. ah But yeah, it's 70-30 at the moment. So we are mostly helping tech co-founders with the business side of things.
00:28:19
Speaker
Okay, nice. And and obviously you you briefly touched on it at the start of the call, but could you introduce us to Brands& in a little bit more detail?
00:28:30
Speaker
ah Yeah, sure. but So Brands' End is basically a DAO. It has been conceived um you know as as ah as a DAO. And DAO is basically a decentralized autonomous organization. So ah it's like a contributor's economy. um And Web3 needs that. People don't want to be stuck to one role in one company.
00:28:54
Speaker
ah But again, what suffers in such settings is usually the accountability. So we thought that if we can bring in talent ah from all you know all across the world from ah various functional areas, and if we can bring in accountability, then we could have a winning formula here.
00:29:20
Speaker
And accountability is a direct outcome of rewards. So if you have more rewards on the table, you will automatically have a greater sense of ownership and a greater sense of accountability. So you really don't need bosses. you know Mostly Web3 is about flat organization structures. People know what their skill sets are and people know how to go about their jobs in the best manner possible. So you don't need too many layers of supervision.
00:29:49
Speaker
right But ah for accountability, you need to kind of have rewards. And that is, in a way, how web3 protocols function, right? If you take any proof of stake blockchain. So ah the security of the economic security is taken care of by mapping it to the incentive. So if you are a bad actor, then you you get slashed, your rewards get slashed, right? So that is exactly ah the philosophy of the DAO.
00:30:17
Speaker
So you know you can work on whatever project ah comes to the DAO and the rewards are in ah in proportion the proportion to the contributions. So that is the model that ah you know we have created.
00:30:33
Speaker
So, there is no hierarchy, no organization structure. So, there are no roles in DAO like, okay, this guy is the CEO, this guy
Brands& DAO Structure and Operations
00:30:40
Speaker
is the COO. So, no roles. It is, ah you know, people and, you know, there are functional areas and then there are projects and founders who come to us. Okay, hey, I need help with influencers and KOLs. Then we look and around in the DAO. is there Is there someone who is experienced in running a KOL influencer agency? if So, we make them meet.
00:31:03
Speaker
And then it is a direct conversation between the business and the KOL agency. Now, if the intervention of ah the core members of DAO ah is required, then obviously a certain and percentage or certain royalty comes into the DAO.
00:31:18
Speaker
The question is what will happen over a period of time with this royalty that gets um accrued or accumulated. The idea is to eventually launch a DAO token which can be a governance token and which can be a reward token.
00:31:34
Speaker
So we are working we have actually worked out the economics, but right now we don't want to launch the token yet. We want a few projects to be successful, happy with the DAO, a few projects to be ah you know you know to be known.
00:31:50
Speaker
so that the capabilities of ah the DAO, capability and not the capabilities of the the DAO, but capabilities of the people of the DAO. right So once we have the proof that yes, this is working, then we can issue a token. So ah people who are holding the token, you know they can ah delegate work to the DAO and rewards can come in in the project token. So we create a whole ah economy between the contributors and people who seek those services. In a way it will ah be, you know, similar to Fiverr, but with a lot more ah accountability because in Fiverr the incentives are, you know, ah decided by the person who is giving out the assignment. But in this case, you know in Web 3, it is always based on the tokenomics. So depending on the mandate, depending on the work that is on the table, and depending on how you have designed the tokenomics, what is on the team, that it's you know it's a mutually agreed percentage. And whatever comes in directly goes to the contributor. So if um a project, for example, says that, OK, I am willing to
00:33:07
Speaker
give you 100,000 of my project tokens for this assignment. And if there are three contributors, then that goes in the ratio of contributions to to the project.
00:33:19
Speaker
And yeah in the future, we can have governance if required to decide who has contributed what you know what kind of ah value it has been generated. And it is fairly easy to track. know So for example, someone in ah social media, the KPIs will be very easy to measure. you know Before you took up the assignment, this is where it was. And after the assignment was completed, this was the growth in engagement rate. This was the growth in following, et cetera.
00:33:47
Speaker
ah slightly more tricky when it comes to creative areas because a good website for me might not be a good website for someone else. But in most ah most areas, the KPIs are fairly easy to identify and as long as they are met, the commitment is ah is done. So
Foundations for Launching Web3 Projects
00:34:05
Speaker
that is what Branson is.
00:34:09
Speaker
Sounds cool. And do do you have some level of ah due diligence on the ah the contributors who come into the DAO, who can then work with projects? Or is that down to the project to say, you know what, we've had a chat with them and and yeah, we want them to contribute. ah Mostly their work speaks for themselves, right? So in DAO you have people like, you know, from Uniswap, X-Polygon, Injective,
00:34:37
Speaker
and it's just It's still a small ecosystem. So you know that someone who has written returned the code for a major protocol, you don't need to do due diligence. right They have been the people behind them. And if you look at ah the members of the DAO currently, they are mostly angels, founders themselves, or ah lead engineers, or people who have been in head of growth, head of business development positions.
00:35:05
Speaker
So it's not like you get green horns in into Dao or you get freshers that you need to do some due diligence. If you get freshers, if you get you know inexperienced folks or first timers in Web3, you might have to do a due diligence. But ah I don't know by design, they are not coming to the Dao because Dao is a fairly evolved concept. Unless you have done your time in Web3, you will really not understand how Dao functions. So far we have been ah getting like absolute experts in, you know, in the respective fields and, you know, the projects have been, you know, have been fairly happy with what the members of the Dow have been able to deliver for them. Still early days, um but I think in a month or two, you will see such stories coming out. Yeah, it sounds brilliant. We are keeping an eye on it for sure. ah Sounds like a yeah really cool place to be.
00:36:01
Speaker
And um yeah obviously congrats for for launching and yeah starting to work with projects and things now. yeah Sounds exciting. um So when um when you've worked with projects and when you say a founder comes to you and says look I've got this idea, I want to launch this project, are there certain foundations that someone needs to have in place in order to launch a project and all in order to start a project? like Are there certain things that you go right? You have to have this when you start this, this, this, and this. You can worry about this later. Are there certain things that you need to have in place?
00:36:39
Speaker
Clear articulation of the problem that you're trying to solve. ah Clear articulation or clear architecture of the solution that you're thinking about.
00:36:53
Speaker
ah clear visibility on who is going to implement the solution and to some extent a financial runway of four to six months.
00:37:10
Speaker
These are some of the basics that are needed. Now, if you don't have the financial runway, then you will need to work with an incubator or an accelerator or, you know for example, we have angels in our DAO as well. So you will do an outreach, but eventually it will ah come in. But oh clear articulation of the problem.
00:37:32
Speaker
the architecture of the solution, and how are you going to go about implementing the solution? Who is going to implement that solution? How long is it going to take? ah Once these three things are taken care of, do you have the financial runway to survive as long as it takes to come up with the solution? Then you go into the next level of detailing. What is your go-to-market strategy going to be?
00:38:00
Speaker
what is your tokenomics going to look like, then you go on and make your pitch deck, you launch your white paper website, then you start doing your investor outreach, you probably get into the test net phase, see what kind of, ah you know, feedback you get from the community and thereafter you well mean So these are some of the some of the steps and at every point in time needless to say having the right people on the job is important because you know today you have so many market makers, so many influencers, so many KOLs, so many media agencies. How do you choose who is right for you? Right? So yeah, these are some of the some of some of some of the steps to be followed.
00:38:50
Speaker
And this might be quite a difficult question to answer. and you You kind of asked it then, how how do you choose how do you choose the right partner? How do you choose the right ecosystem? How do you choose the right chain to launch on? like what how How do you do that as a founder?
00:39:10
Speaker
ah ah How do you choose the right chain to launch on purely depends on the community and the activity levels on, you know, of the ecosystem, right? So, yeah, I mean, today, if you, I mean, it's needless, right? If you open your Twitter or Forecaster feeds, all you say see is base and better. So needless to say, those are two of the most anticipated ecosystems out there. So it makes sense to launch on, you know, these two ecosystems.
00:39:42
Speaker
So, that is a fairly easy choice to make, I would say. like ah One usual, you know, discussions or a point of discussion that used to come up a few months back was should we be EVM or should we be non EVM? So, essentially the Solana versus Ethereum debate or the Polkadot versus Ethereum debate.
00:40:09
Speaker
But that seems to have settled. you know There is reasonable clarity on the ecosystems that are doing well. So you have Ethereum, of course, Ethereum and it's L2s. Then you have Solana, which is doing well. Then you have Ton, which is doing well. Then you have Nier, which is doing well.
00:40:30
Speaker
So that is how you choose. So it's a fairly straightforward, easy decision to make. Then there are certain nuances, internal ah parameters,
00:40:41
Speaker
right okay which of the ecosystem is likely to support us more, they ah with announcements, with growth, with GTM, with grants. And then you can choose one EVML to over another, or you know i can arrive at But, you know, those are oh secondary parameters for choosing. Primary parameter is you should choose an ecosystem where you are confident that your application is going to get adoption. So, for example, if you are building DeFi and launching it on an ecosystem which is known for memes, then, you know, that's not the right thing to do.
00:41:19
Speaker
you need to launch a DeFi application in an ecosystem which is known to have DeFi users. So that bit of synergy is important. Now, the other part of the question was how do you choose the right partner? That usually comes from experience and that is the reason why we have so many founders, ex-founders in the DAO.
00:41:48
Speaker
you know you become a founder by making several mistakes. So you know that way you know what works what does not work. So mostly it is collective intelligence, its iterations. There is no clear way of determining from a pitch deck or a proposal document on whether this is the right partner.
00:42:16
Speaker
Of course, it can do some bit of filtering based on the scope, services, how they intend to go about delivering those promises. Yes, some bit of filtration is possible. Probably one or two rounds of calls, help, asking, of course, how have you gone about delivering your previous project that helps reference check helps okay so if you have worked with past projects please give us references ah but mostly it is experience that you know you know that okay this market maker has
00:42:52
Speaker
has been really good really performed in difficult times or this agency has been able to deliver good creative outputs over the last three years or four years and yeah that's how you go about it. That's good advice I suppose there's so many So many communities in Web3 that are super, super helpful. So say if you are building something for the first time, you know, you can head into tons of different communities and get people's recommendations and referrals into various different partners and that kind of stuff, right? You don't necessarily have to just go off.
00:43:29
Speaker
what they're saying to you. You know, you can speak to people who've built stuff before. And I actually think we're in a very, very lucky phase of the industry. Hopefully it stays like this. I'm not sure whether it will forever. But we're in a lucky stage in the industry where everyone wants to help each other to grow and scale and to expand the pie, I guess, right? um So we're see at the moment, everyone's super, super willing to to have those types of conversations, which is great.
00:43:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think but right now it's all about collaboration rather than competition.
The Collaborative Spirit in Web3
00:44:01
Speaker
And it is likely to, you know, likely to stay that way. Because, you know, everyone who is there in Web3 today is bound by a common philosophy. And the market is still very, very nascent, very, very young.
00:44:21
Speaker
I mean, and it's very, very small. So it absolutely doesn't make sense to compete with each other. Right. By collaborating, you are growing the market and when the market grows, even if you are getting a pie of the market, oh you know, it should be good for you. So right now it is all about collaboration rather than competition. Yeah, you're right. And if if someone is stepping into
00:44:53
Speaker
and that's very obvious from the kind of interactions that you have on discord channels or on vodcast on some of these platforms right so there are builders groups for specific communities that there is base builders group there is arbitrum founders club there are unofficial groups like lobster dao then there are crypto executive groups communities and Mostly, you know, if you put out a legitimate question, you have at least 10, 12 people giving you good answers, good advice, even going to the extent of DMing you, chatting to you at length. So that spirit of collaboration is what is amazing about that tree. Yeah, I agree. it's ah yeah It's one of my favorite parts about the industry, to be honest, that everyone's so willing to help each other and to
00:45:48
Speaker
ah to help people learn and develop and then give advice and stuff. It makes the industry a nice place to be. Yeah, even if you take our example, ah we as a DAO met Daniel through you, right? Yeah. And he is, you know, advising ah zero on the smart contracts side. So this is good. This is what collaboration looks like. So is there someone stepping into um Web 3 for the first time. Is there anything that you'd really like people to be aware of the industry before they become a part of it? Don't share your secret phrase. Say again, sorry? Don't share your secret phrase. Don't share your secret phrase.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, write that write that somewhere and lock it in a safe. Never send it to anyone. And ah don't take financial advice on Twitter.
00:46:52
Speaker
What else? Yeah, I mean, jokes apart. But these are serious advice, by the way. ah But are you asking more from a career perspective or more from a user's perspective?
00:47:11
Speaker
um Both to be honest, I guess, um you know, some of the answers so or some some of the sometimes when I've asked that question before, um guests have spoken about they'd like people to be aware of the community aspect of um the industry, you know, maybe having some pressures from the external community because you're building very out in the open.
00:47:32
Speaker
um Or it could be um the fact that ah there are a lot of scams in the industry, so you do have to be really careful. um Yeah, just just if there is anything that um you you would like to make people aware of, to be honest, before they join the industry. ah Due diligence and research is something that's very important.
00:47:58
Speaker
copy And before they join the industry, I mean, ah it's okay. I mean, Web3 is fairly flexible. So even if you make a wrong choice about your first gig in Web3, it's fine. It's okay. I would, on the contrary, encourage people to dive into Web3 without wasting a lot of time.
00:48:25
Speaker
Because the ah you know we are at the cusp of massive growth, you know massive explosion. So ah one shouldn't deliberate too much. you know If they know about Web3, they are reasonably excited. They shouldn't waste any time in diving right into Web3. Of course, they have to be very careful on the financial side of things, ah the fund side of things. There are a lot of you know vulnerabilities. there are a lot of threats. There are a lot of bad actors who try to take advantage of ah naive new joiners, normies. So ah when it comes to financial matters, very, very important to ah be super careful
00:49:08
Speaker
super precise, you know, do a lot of research. So they have to be, you know, for sure, yeah you know, even when someone is receiving their first salary, for example, if someone has joined the web, joined web three, and they are about to receive their first salary.
00:49:26
Speaker
Are you sending the correct wallet address? I have heard
Career Advice for Web3 Newcomers
00:49:31
Speaker
so many instances where people missed out on their monthly income, monthly salary because they gave a wrong wallet or they gave the gave a with an unsupported chain. The funds were sent to that wallet on Ethereum and this guy did not know and they gave some other address. so with your funds you have to be like super careful whether you are receiving whether you are sending whether you are you know trying out an application yes you have to be you know very very careful it is worth the research it is worth spending that extra time reading
00:50:11
Speaker
But when it comes to pursuing a career, pursuing an opportunity, I would say that don't think too much. Don't do a lot of research. Just dive in. Just experience it. It's OK to go wrong in your first gig. It's OK to go wrong in your first 10 gigs. It's OK. Because this is what learning is about. So that would be my objective advice. So with funds.
00:50:37
Speaker
very careful with gigs. Just dive in. ah Don't go for it. Yeah, that's good. That's that's good advice. If someone is is wanting to build a successful career as a, you know, chief marketing officer or chief growth officer in web three. Are there any any particular bits of advice you could give someone around that?
00:51:01
Speaker
ah one The one which I told about consumer behavior, user behavior, understanding um the consumer, understanding the market that holds. That is the core of everything. Now, on top of that, you would want to build on functional skills.
00:51:20
Speaker
now oh typically in web two for someone to become a CAO on an average would take what at least seven to 10 years, ah probably even more. and least Yeah, at least right.
00:51:37
Speaker
ah Probably in tech, I've seen some people with five five years of experience becoming CMS. So ah typically the journey in Web2 is what you start as an assistant brand manager or a brand manager or a sales executive or an area sales manager. Then you elevate into a category category manager, category marketing manager, and then you, you know, kind of become, you know, head of marketing, head of certain region, and then you become the CMO, right? In that three people can become CMO in, you know, with three months of work experience. It's very, very, very important yeah ah to learn functional skill sets. It's okay not to have the years of experience, but
00:52:29
Speaker
It's very important to have certain functional skill sets. Now as a CMO, you should also be able to do things which are required of every marketing function. Now it starts with content.
00:52:45
Speaker
So definitely helps if you are at a good writer, or at least you can give the right prompts to chat Jeopardy to come up with good content and spend some time to unchat Jeopardy it.
00:53:01
Speaker
but i So content is a very important skill, not just for a CMO, but even for I keep saying this to tech folks as well, you should be able to articulate what you are building. So ah the ability to write content ah something is that's very important. you know It could be simple paragraph, simple line or ah you know detailed blogs or white papers, but everything revolves around content because it is ah the end user is eventually going to consume your content and he's not going to consume your code.
00:53:39
Speaker
He is going to use your user documentation. He is going to read your manuals. He is going to you know read through your social media posts. He is not going to read through your codes or audit reports. So content is one of the very important skills to develop. Another important skill is distribution, ah which means you should be able to penetrate ah into the community yourself right without necessarily relying on paid ads or you know PPC campaigns or paid promotions, you should be able to build a distribution network which is relevant to you and the protocol that you represent. Distribution is a very important skill.
00:54:32
Speaker
Apart from that, I would say ah you know maintaining good relationships as a CMO, that is very important. At least try to meet top journalists, key journalists, key influencers, KOLs, try to ah meet other founders, try to meet your competition, try to meet your but you know compatriots in you know your you your likes in other protocols, you know your contemporaries in other protocols, ah that relationship building. So I would say content distribution, ah relationship building, ah these are some of the key things. Now, of course, we can get more detailed about certain tech.
00:55:23
Speaker
marketing technical skill sets like ah SEO or SEM or brand management, a very important skill sets. Even in Web2 brand management, a core brand management skill set is very very rare.
00:55:41
Speaker
right ah You don't have a lot of people who have actually read Capferer or who know the brand keyhole model or are familiar with these brand development exercises, brand identity, how to come up with a brand identity, how of write a positioning statement. ah Those are like deep marketing theory which probably ah graduates or post graduates in marketing would be aware of, but that's a you know slightly rarefied skill set even in Web2.
00:56:16
Speaker
and Needless to say in Web3, I have not seen a lot of specialists in brand management. So if you have that skill, it is definitely going to give you a head start over others, right which means you should be able to say you know what ah color, what font or what style, what style of writing, what kind of visual or verbal drivers are appropriate for your brand. So if you are able to make that judgment call, I think it is going to augur well for you, for the protocol that you are yeah are a part of.
00:56:50
Speaker
so Yeah, ah you know, everything else, ah you know, it's more technical in nature as you tend to go deeper. But these four areas, which is essentially ability to come up with content ability to have a distribution channel at your disposal or build your own distribution, ah ability to foster relationships with people that matter, your contemporaries, other stakeholders, founders, journalists, influencers and you know brand management and SEO I would say.
Skills for Web3 Chief Marketing Officers
00:57:27
Speaker
So these are some good
00:57:29
Speaker
things to have as a CMO that does you know if you are good at all of these four areas, I think you're going to make a very, very good CMO. Yeah, for for sure. and And is that something in these skills that just you learn over time and you have to just start to experience actually putting all of these into practice or are there, again, certain places and certain courses you can do on all of these things to pick things up very quickly? What's your thoughts?
00:57:59
Speaker
um
00:58:02
Speaker
What was the question? Because the network was a bit patchy. Hey, sorry. Did you ask if these skills could be acquired on the job or are there literatures available for these? Was that the question? Yes. So do you so do you think that ah these are skills that have to be acquired over time and after you're in You know, tons of different situations with different companies and that kind of thing. Or, you know, are they things that you can just pick up from a textbook and just implement and put into practice?
00:58:35
Speaker
ah Branding and SEO, these are a fairly theoretical skills. Brand management and ah SEO, ah digital marketing. These are fairly theoretical skills. So you can probably refer to a textbook or a piece of literature in these areas. You can master this, no problem.
00:58:54
Speaker
oh haltan Content, it comes with experience, right? ah You know, because content is not just the command of language. Content is basically clarity in your head. And how well do you understand the functional area that you are writing about? It is okay to have ah not read Ren and Martin and it's okay to have average grammar because you have grammarly to correct that for you. ah You have ai to AI agents to correct that for you. But ah to have that clarity in your mind, that is very important. So this is something that you will only pick up with time and experience. Okay.
00:59:44
Speaker
ah Then about relationships, I mean, yeah, we all know how difficult it is to forge good relationships in life. So of course, there is no book or no art of seduction or how to become an influential person in seven steps. None of that is going to help. You have to be be there, put yourself out in the community, speak to people and see how people receive you, strike those conversations.
01:00:16
Speaker
So that is again a function of the man hours that you put on ground. It's a function of hours that you you know spend in nurturing your relationship. Definitely not something that can be picked up from a book.
01:00:32
Speaker
What does that leave us distribution? Again, it is related to the community, right? It's not something that you can learn. So definitely there are no textbooks which say that, oh, these are the good influences or these are the good channels to follow. So even in ah web two, you don't have, I mean, you probably have some media guides, you have some reports which say what is the average viewership of a certain channel over another. You have so some of those research reports, but not in Web3. So if you probably have to you know spend time in and distribute distribution, understanding these distribution channels. So yes, subjectively, branding and digital marketing, SEO, these are some things that you can learn from a textbook or from literature. Everything else you know have to spend time.
01:01:30
Speaker
and Understood. Yeah, super, super useful. Thank you. yeah And then if you are starting out right, typically, don't try to address all the functional areas in, you know, on day one or in your first month or first year, pick up one narrow front, master that well, and it is worth, you know, mastering one of these four areas before spreading yourself into other areas.
01:01:59
Speaker
For sure. no that's That's good advice. That leads me on to a question I always like to finish up with. I always like to know, knowing what you know now about marketing, growth, leadership, launching projects, advisory, whatever it might be. If you could go back, you know, 20 years or to the start of your career, whenever that that might be to not try and give away your age to any listeners or people watching.
01:02:29
Speaker
And is there any advice that you would have for your younger self?
01:02:41
Speaker
For my younger self, probably, ah you know, little more empathy for the environment around you. yeah okay What do you mean by that? Yeah, empathy, I mean, try to listen more to people, try to connect more to people. see Because the world, the universe is always talking to you. It is sending you signals, either in the form of people, either in the form of accidents, either in form of incidents, either in you know in the form of rewards. So the universe is always communicating to you. okay
01:03:19
Speaker
So it's very important to listen listen more value. I mean, it's about absorbing more from the world around
Engagement Invitation
01:03:31
Speaker
you. The more you absorb, oh you know the sooner you will progress. That's all.
01:03:38
Speaker
That's good. No, I like that. That's that's good advice. think yeah Most of the times, right, ah if something, you know, unfortunate happens, and when you really analyze that, you will see that there have been warnings about this incident. It's not like it has been, I mean, it's very rare that, you know, very rare and unfortunate that it happened to you and you were completely caught off surprise. and That would be very, very unfortunate. Okay.
01:04:07
Speaker
ah But for example, right, if you made a transaction to a wrong wallet, for example, for the first time, you will see that you know, this was always on the cards, because something had happened in the past.
01:04:25
Speaker
So anything wrong that happens, it always comes ah with warnings. It is like ah there is no tsunami without an earthquake.
01:04:37
Speaker
So there has to be an earthquake somewhere deep in the ocean. for there to be a tsunami. So if you are a good listener, ah you know you will see that, oh, there was an earthquake. You will feel the tremors. And then you will work out that, OK, if there has been an earthquake, there is going to be a tsunami, and you will be better prepared. So you will be a little less surprised. You will be a little more prepared ah for life if you just listen to the you know world around you a little more.
01:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. And be observant, which is you know what you said at the start, you know observing your customer. Obviously, be observant to everything going on around you as well. And I like it. It's good. It's good advice.
01:05:22
Speaker
Well, Ashutosh, thank you very much for for taking the time to have a conversation ah today. You shared some yeah some brilliant tips and some great advice. I'm going to have to go back through this and yeah make a bunch of notes myself ah once we've once we've posted it. um So yeah, thank you very much for that.
01:05:40
Speaker
If anyone listening is ah really interested to either get involved in the DAO, or they're really interested to understand about some of the projects that you guys are helping, or maybe they've got some extra questions um for for you, um where's the best place for them to reach out to you? Is it, ah drop me a note on Twitter, or X ah now, sorry, or LinkedIn, or anything like that? Yeah, X is fine, or DM on X is fine, or even Telegram is fine.
01:06:09
Speaker
so Okay. Cool. Cool stuff. Well Ashutosh, thank you very much again. and And I'll speak to you soon. Thank you, Jack. Hope it is useful for your listeners. Great speaking to you. Absolutely. Take care.