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What makes a BAD Video Game Sequel?
271 Plays3 years ago
Join Fraser (Satsunami) and Adam as they discuss what truly makes a bad video game sequel. From nostalgia baiting to less than stellar gameplay, the game is on to find what is hindering these video games.
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Transcript
Introduction & Milestone Celebration
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to the 10th episode of Chatsunami. Cannot believe it's 10 episodes already. My name's Chatsunami and joining me once again is my awesome co-host Adam. Hello there. Thank you. I was so touched by that. Thank you. No good to be back as always.
00:00:37
Speaker
I was cycling through the adjectives there, I'm like, nice. It's like, nice, professional, awesome. No, there it is. I was like, no, just stop it, awesome. I know. I was worried you were cycling through the, through the, the, sorry, that, the word that you just said has completely left my mind, but the, but different A words and I was like, God, he could have gone to atrocious, dismal, awful. I'm like, oh, thank God he stopped it, awesome. It's like, yeah, just, just throw my dictionary off the table.
Recap & Topic Introduction
00:01:06
Speaker
So yeah, as you can see by the screen, today we're really following up on our last topic, aren't we? Probably a thread here. Yeah, exactly. We're building a very rich... Oh, what do you call that? The Marvel universe, where it's all linked together? Oh, god. Yeah, that thing. Yeah. That Marvel thing.
00:01:28
Speaker
The Marvel Cinematic... Oh, it's the Cinematic Universe, that's it. That's the one, that's the phrase. Yeah. It's like the chat tsunami talking universe. Why not? You know what, why not? I'm not paid Hollywood salaries to come up with these names, okay? Maybe one day, but not today. Can't wait for stage three. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's when we have to get a good friend Craig in from Bead and Chill podcast. That's hopefully when I get my own spin-off as well. Fingers crossed. Is that when you start your Terminator podcast?
00:01:58
Speaker
I wish. Nobody else wishes that but I do. One day. One day we'll get there. One of these days.
What Makes a Sequel Disappointing?
00:02:05
Speaker
So for today, yeah for today we are really expanding upon what we talked about last time. The last time we talked about video games that we wanted to see a sequel for but at the same time we did throw a lot of shade at a couple of other games that
00:02:23
Speaker
did have sequels, but did not live up to the hype really. So yeah, this is gonna be the episode where we take off our boxing glove, or the kid gloves, and yeah, just go at it for all these atrocious abominations of gaming. Which, there are many. There are definitely- They're gonna get it. They're gonna get what they deserve.
00:02:43
Speaker
Before we go into our examples, you might have seen a couple of spoilers on the screen. I did whip that up, so apologies. Yeah, before we go into the main, you know, games that we both kind of came up with, I've got a question for you, Adam, and I hope you've come prepared.
00:03:01
Speaker
always. Always. I was going to say what, for you personally, like not even objectively but just subjectively, what is the criteria for you for a bad sequel or like what makes it bad to you where you just sit down and you think my god that was awful. Yeah like I was thinking about this and I kind of started to think what's it like to make a sequel
00:03:24
Speaker
And honestly, this gave me a whole new appreciation, I think, for video game development. Because the more I thought about it, the more I felt, making a sequel, it must be bloody shit. Because I was thinking, I thought about sequels that played it too safe. And I think what can make a bad sequel is playing it too safe and just not innovating and not going any further.
00:03:44
Speaker
And the real question is, if you don't do that, what was the point in making it? You know, you've just made a rehash of the first game. I think something like Dishonored 2 was an example that I thought that I was like, this almost feels exactly like Dishonored 1. And I was like, this doesn't feel like a sequel. This just feels like some extra. This just feels like DLC. But on the other hand, I feel you can innovate too much. And if you go that far, then you're risking driving people away. And something like the Total War series for me, I loved some of the old Total War games. But I feel like they went in a very kind of micromanaging direction.
00:04:14
Speaker
And it felt like it had gone too far for somebody like me. Maybe that appealed to other people, but for me, it really has put me off trying in the new games because I feel they're so different from the games that I liked. So I think the things that really make a bad sequel for me is playing it too safe or innovating too much. You have to find that really, really small, happy middle ground between the two. And you've got the problem dealing with fans as well. That adds a whole new another layer of everything.
00:04:42
Speaker
I think as well, what can make a sequel bad is the memory of the original. If an original game is too good, then there's no chance a sequel has no chance to compare to. So again, it's quite subjective, I suppose, but something like me like Telltale is like The Walking Dead. That first season to me is perfect. And it's one of my it's my favorite game of all time.
00:05:00
Speaker
and I love it and everything. And I've enjoyed the other seasons that Telltale made with Walking Dead, but they just didn't have that same like punch, that same like emotional heft and like the attachment that I got from playing the first season. So yeah, I think it really is a case of playing it too safe, you know, innovating too much and then just how good was your original? All these things can combine just to make a bad sequel.
00:05:21
Speaker
Now I totally agree with you there because as you were saying there about the fans as well and trying to find that sweet spot, you're never gonna get that perfect middle ground, are you? No. You're never. Like the whole idea of gaming that's just so subjective these days, there's so many genres, there's just so many things that you have to take into account here.
Changing Gaming Trends and Expectations
00:05:42
Speaker
And it's like you were saying with the Total War series, I love as well, like I totally agree with you, I love
00:05:48
Speaker
the Total Wars series. I think my first one was Medieval Total War and then like I played through Rome and then Medieval II. Medieval II I think is where it has peak. Like there was a couple of like adjustments that could have made but overall it's the one I enjoy the most and I think that's where they were starting to strike gold and then all of a sudden they came out with I think it was Empire at War next and it was just like
00:06:11
Speaker
what are you doing like having to micromanage every city but and again like that might be someone's play style but i mean for me personally like i felt it was a bit too much that is the worry like in one way it's like as you said they need to like video games do need to evolve
00:06:28
Speaker
and kind of change with the times but at the same time if they evolve too much into one area then yeah it's gonna kind of isolate the fans that built that foundation in the first place and my god fans are a fickle bunch when it comes to video games they are and one of the examples i will like touch on it but yeah fans are very
00:06:50
Speaker
on the other hand like I'm not saying fans are you know to blame for bad you know sequels they're not but at the same time it's like there is a lot of factors I mean I think as well changing kind of trends as well in gaming like I remember when we were growing up in the 90s you know a cheeky Bojack reference there but in the 90s
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, there was a lot of platformer games, and that's when gaming was kind of evolving. But the further it started evolving into other things like shooters and different things is probably when games were starting to try and innovate and evolve.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, there's just so many factors to take into consideration and by the time, you know, it starts off in its early stages. I mean, here's another question for you. Do you think that if a game started strong in a particular year
00:07:45
Speaker
like for example a platformer in the 90s or like a shooter game in the early 2000s and you compare it from where it started to what it is now. Do you think that can affect people's perceptions of it being a bad sequel? I totally think that the time the video game released has big ramifications for it and some just don't translate well.
00:08:07
Speaker
I think it's a simple fact. I mean, as long as I'm like Duke Nukem forever, Duke Nukem was what, one of the most popular video game characters in the 90s? Maybe like the 90s? I don't know for a fact, but I would suspect that he was incredibly popular.
00:08:20
Speaker
And then look when Duke Nukem Prebber came out in 2009, 2008, something like that. It's just like the utter bomb it was because it just felt so out of touch and so out of time and just everything else with it. And I suppose as well, like, I mean, the game that you talked about last week with Banjo-Kazooie and the Nuts and Bolts, that one was like trying to bring an old franchise into the present, which is in a horrible, horrible way and trying to jump on kind of newer trends, but just failed. And just because the,
00:08:47
Speaker
It was a horrible mashup. It was a horrible mashup. It didn't fit at all. So no, I totally agree with you on that. A time period for a game can have a huge factor on how a sequel, what's in a sequel and how it's received.
00:08:58
Speaker
Honestly, that is a very good example you've just brought up there with Banjo-Kazooie nuts and bolts. As I was saying last time, Banjo-Kazooie was this big platformer at the time, and it was really beloved. I don't know if you could really compare it to Mario or Sonic, comparable platformers, but it was still massive at the time. It had a following, and for the longest time, because of company dramas and selling over and everything to Microsoft,
00:09:27
Speaker
you know there was so much to take into consideration there. But then when they came out with the third game, basically spoilers, that's not one of the games I've chosen to talk about, but one of the things they did was they turned it into like this weird vehicle builder game and it had like platformer elements but it really stripped those away and there's a scene at the very beginning
00:09:49
Speaker
where the main antagonist, well kind of antagonist, he kind of makes fun of the audience for liking those kind of games. At the beginning he makes you do this race and you're running against another enemy.
00:10:05
Speaker
and then he stops you like halfway through and goes oh no no no no kids don't want to do this kids want to shoot things these days and everything and it's that idea of it trying to kind of break that barrier to be like oh we're still hip and trendy but i feel as if they just stuck to their roots you know like maybe they would have just had a really successful ip there and they'd be still like milking the franchise to death now
00:10:30
Speaker
and we wouldn't be talking about it right now and I mean that's not to say like the game is inherently awful but when compared to like the other two that it's spawned from yeah there's no comparison it's night and day and not in a good way no I totally I don't think it's I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that you try and make a sequel to a game that was of a very particular time
00:10:52
Speaker
it's going to be like a disappointment or a failure. I just think that the evidence maybe weighs more towards it in that way because because of expectation. I think that's the thing with an old game as well. Expectations have become so high. So if you just look at the hype that was surrounding you can forever like compare that to something like Watch Dogs 2. Compare the hype to those those two games being really
00:11:13
Speaker
It was so much, people were so much more excited. You know, higher expectations can often lead to bigger disappointments. So it's not a foregone conclusion that there'd be disasters, but I think unfortunately history has tended to show that they often can be.
00:11:26
Speaker
I've got one more question for you just before we jump into our examples, but do you think, you know the phrase, the bigger they are, the harder they fall? Do you think the same applies to the video game characters themselves? Like the bigger the franchise and the bigger the face attached to it, the more consequence there's gonna be for it failing as a bad sequel?
00:11:46
Speaker
I think to an extent I agree. I think for games that have a reputation and have built up a reputation then definitely that is a big concern that it's going to fall completely flat on its face.
00:12:04
Speaker
I could be stupid examples of that because they are just some perfect examples. But at the same time, I think a lot of it depends as well as the frequency of sequels. So Call of Duty is a heavily established franchise now, but these sequels are churned out every year that I think expectations are almost dull.
00:12:20
Speaker
You know, at the same time, I don't think as much as as it's one of the biggest gaming franchises now, I don't think expectations for many, for lots of people rise to like to those kind of level as hallowed levels have been like, oh, my God, this is our Lord and Savior. Yeah.
Franchise Fatigue and High Expectations
00:12:36
Speaker
You know, well, something for these other games, if you're not seeing them, you know, what's what's the what's the typical time between Mario is a Mario game like every three years, sometimes it can be longer.
00:12:46
Speaker
It's something like that. Yeah, they do take their time, mind you. Yeah, so that builds excitement itself. That's a huge franchise that builds, you know, excitement because we're not seeing, we don't see one, you know, every year. I think frequency of sequels definitely is a big factor in that. But yeah, totally. I mean, you know, in the daylight, if you go, if you go look at like
00:13:05
Speaker
like a list of like bad video game sequels. You know, you can probably guess the ones you're going to see. You're not going to see things like Crackdown 3. You're not going to really see things like Ghost Recon Breakpoint, which are objectively bad game. I'm not that I play deeper, but from what all I understand, they're objectively bad games. But, you know, like it's kind of like, who cares? Okay, these are sequels. These are a series, but who really cares? You know, it'd be far more shocking that Mario game was just
00:13:29
Speaker
like awful, you know. I know there's some that people, I'm not as well versed in the Mario games, but I know there's some, those resonate, I'm sure, much more than something like Crackdown 3.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean it is that idea though of franchise fatigue, isn't it? That idea that because there's this expectation that they need to turn it out like year after year. I mean another example which I will probably get to later is Pokemon. Those games are released every year, two years. Like very, in terms of gaming, very close to one another. Like one after the other, very just
00:14:02
Speaker
I don't want to say rushed because you know I'm not a game developer you know unless one day I wake up and I have a hidden talent of going oh my god I can code and I can draw all these wonderful worlds but there's just such a rush for like because it's a big franchise so obviously they want to capitalize on it as much as possible but it's the fact that they're getting rushed out so much that as you said it's like Call of Duty as well or maybe to a lesser extent Battlefield because that used to be
00:14:31
Speaker
The FIFA games are year after year as well. It's probably a good example of that.
00:14:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely. And it is. It's just that idea of, like, wearing people down. And I have to admit, like, when we talk about a sequel, it doesn't necessarily have to be, like, a sequel to the story that it's trying to tell itself, if you know what I mean. So, like, as you said for Call of Duty, not all of the stories are interlinked. Like, you've got different series. You've got the Black Ops series. You've got the Modern Warfare series.
00:15:01
Speaker
You've got, you know, ghosts as a stand-alone, you know, like all those Infinite Warfare Advance Works, you know, all of those things, but they're all encompassed under the IP of Call of Duty. In that sense, it's like they're holding the banner, as it were, to represent themselves, if you know what I mean. It's like they're representing what they could be.
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah, when you're constantly banging the drum and knocking on people's doors at three in the morning saying, there's a new Call of Duty game out and it's like, yeah, that's nice. It's going to wear down on people and especially the fans. There's only so much, even the fanboys, best fans are going to get sick of it, essentially.
00:15:45
Speaker
they are gonna get tired and it is, it's just, it's gonna sully their perception of, you know, as a whole. I mean, we've seen it in like loads of franchises like Pokémon, Sonic, you know, Call of Duty as you said. Halo, especially. Halo's another one which I'll get onto but, ugh, just, yeah, just that, I suppose apathy, if you know what I mean? Like just gaming apathy.
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah, that took a very depressing turn, really quick. So yeah, let's jump into the first game that you chose. Adam, putting the floor over to you, what did you choose first? So the first game that came to my mind, and it's funny because objectively it's a good game. Objectively it's actually a very good game, and the reviews kind of reflected this.
00:16:32
Speaker
And it was very, it was widely, widely liked. But for me, it was a disappointment. And the game that I'm talking about is Wolfenstein 2 The New Colossus. So I've probably told you, I probably told you quite a few times, but I am a huge fan of Wolfenstein The New Order.
00:16:48
Speaker
which was the 2014 reboot of the Wolfenstein franchise, which had been kind of hiatus for quite a few years, actually, before then. And so they updated it and they made it into this sort of alternate World War II, where the Nazis had got their hands on all this incredible technology and were winning the war and the Allies were on their last legs. And that's how the New Order starts, is this sort of last desperate attempt by the Allies to try and win the war.
00:17:16
Speaker
Spoiler alert, it fails. The main character, BJ Blazkowicz, goes into a coma, wakes up 13 or 14 years later, and finds that he's in a world where the Nazis have won, and they rule the whole world. And that's the starting off point. And I absolutely love that game. It's one of my favorite shooters. It's probably one of my favorite games.
00:17:37
Speaker
I loved the story in it. I loved the characters. The settings were really cool. I thought it was really well designed. The gameplay was fun. It had basically everything. I just loved everything about it. And I was really excited for it. I was really happy to hear that they were making it into a bigger franchise.
00:17:55
Speaker
And so I think it was 2017 that the new Colossus came out. I was really excited for it, and I got it on release. And as I say, it's a good game. The gameplay is still good. It's still really kind of punchy shooting, and the weapons are cool. And they added some new abilities, which made it quite fun. You could a bit better just sneak around or pack extra firepower and stuff. But just overall, the game was a disappointment to me. Historian tone-wise,
00:18:23
Speaker
It's a very, it's a game of two very different halves. And so the kind of tone of New Order, the reboot, was that it was, you know, there was a lot of like kind of wacky, you know, fun to be had and kind of crazy weapons and you're shooting Nazis and it's all over the top. But there was this really like grim tone to it of like,
00:18:42
Speaker
this world ruled by the Nazis and it didn't like shy away from showing the kind of horrors that would entail and it was really at the end it was this small group of kind of desperate people trying to like fight back against Nazi rule but really in a way almost accepting they'd lost and this was just a last futile attempt and it just really and it added a completely new level to a game that could have just been like over the top super silly and
00:19:06
Speaker
no real depth to it and so that really drew me in and the new courses starts off that way the first half kind of has that same tone and everything but then it has a very noticeable shift halfway through and it becomes more that sort of wacky like kind of over the top and ditches all that kind of grim seriousness which I thought was a real shame because
00:19:23
Speaker
It kind of took away some of the defining characteristics of New Order and what I really liked. I didn't find the setting as intriguing as well, so New Colossus is focused on America, while New Order was mostly focused around Europe, and certainly you travelled a lot differently. You travelled like London and Berlin.
00:19:41
Speaker
Poland, Gibraltar, like lots of different places and you got to see all these different places under Nazi rule and everything and if I actually do crisscross America fair point but I just didn't find the locales as engaging so that disappointed me the game is too bloated as well it's too long they added a lot of side activities into it but they were repetitive and there was so many of them and it just it said it was just bloated it was just too long and it kind of really sucked a lot of the fun out I said it, objectively it's a good game
00:20:07
Speaker
But it just disappointed me because it really just kind of ditched the spirit and everything that I really loved about the new order. And I just found a disappointment to be honest. And I was really sad. They released another one, Young Blood, which I don't think, which was not met with much praise at all. And I'm not quite sure. So I just, it was a real sad for something that I franchise, I was really excited about at one point. It just felt like the kind of air was loud, the tires. So it was just a big disappointment to me really.
00:20:34
Speaker
And it's going back to what you said before about it being such a big franchise, especially for a lot of people growing up with gaming. And having that, I suppose like Duke Nukem where it's like it's got the name to back it up. Like someone says Wolfenstein and you go, oh yeah, that's a game that you shoot the Nazis and everything. It's like, oh yeah, you know, the reputation is there.
00:20:55
Speaker
yeah as you said it's like it's got a lot to live up to to kind of impress people yeah because i mean i suppose it's kind of similar in films as well when it's like you set the stakes for the first one and then it's like you have to raise the stakes for the second one think right how can we make it bigger and better and more bombastic and yeah sometimes you just like completely drop the ball and you're just like how could how could you do this to me
00:21:21
Speaker
It's the trouble of carrying a story on, isn't it? In a way, New Order Stories could almost be a self-contained thing. There was potential for a sequel there, but it almost is a self-contained thing in itself. You could easily just play that and be like, that's a start, that's a middle, that's an end. I don't need to play anymore. It's that way of then being like, all right, we want to make another one of these. How do we keep this going? As you say, how do we keep this ball rolling and what can we do? I just don't think it managed it.
00:21:50
Speaker
as a shame though, especially when, what was the, like I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but like how long was it from the original game to the sequel?
00:21:59
Speaker
Oh, like the original Wolfenstein. So there had been, there had been a couple of other Wolfenstein games in between. So what's the original Wolfenstein, like 91 or something I have a feeling. So let's say 91, like there had been, then I think a couple of, I say expansions, they weren't called expansions in the day, but a couple of extra things have been added to that. There was a game in 2003, which was a return to Castle Wolfenstein, which was for PC, like original Xbox.
00:22:21
Speaker
PlayStation 2, which it was really good as well. Actually, it's good for, dated now, but it was good for its time. Then they had, they tried to reboot in 2008 on the Xbox 360 PS3 called Wolfenstein. And that would just outflopped. It was not good at all. Like they tried to make it into an open world thing, just wasn't good. And that's what really killed the series for ages, I think for about six years. And then they got this one back in again. And this, I think actually Wolfenstein the New Order is an example of how you take
00:22:47
Speaker
an old property and update it and it's the perfect blend of keeping the spirit of the original but you know making the most and benefiting from advances and you know making it palatable to a modern gamer sort of like the doom 26 in the same in the same sort of way but yeah just i don't know the sequel just they just couldn't for me again it was popular so perhaps this is a this is me just as a kind of solitary opinion but i just found it disappointing i still think about it today
00:23:13
Speaker
those are the worst ones sitting up at like two in the morning just staring at the ceiling going how could you how could you've done this to me tell me why nothing but yeah i'm not going to finish that because yeah this is not a music podcast by any means not that you could tell by my angelic voice of course but yeah
00:23:36
Speaker
moving swiftly on from that before I have to edit it out. Oh yeah, no that is a good shout though. Okay so yeah you might be looking at the you know the cover for this episode thinking oh boy I wonder what game Satsunami's going to be talking about and it is Resident Eat- no I'm kidding. Oh you nearly got me then.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, the ultimate betrayal. Now, the game I'm gonna be talking about is one that admittedly is infamous nowadays. Oh god, where do I begin with this? This is a game that I grew up with. I absolutely adored it. It's still like a kind of comfort game that'll go to every so often.
Tone Shifts and Innovation Challenges
00:24:18
Speaker
That being, of course, Sonic the Hedgehog. And I have to admit, like, when I played the original, so my, like,
00:24:24
Speaker
first exposure was my brother playing it on like the Sega Mega Drive and then he ended up getting a copy of Sonic Adventure 1 for the Dreamcast and my god like I was so like glued to the screen and everything thinking wow what is this game you know and just really taken aback by it and then of course years later I ended up buying Sonic Adventure 2 which was you know it surpassed my expectations I was like oh this is even better you know and don't get me wrong it's got it's
00:24:53
Speaker
bad moments. None of these games are perfect, but see at the same time, the thing that I do admire about Sonic, even though I'm about to completely rant on it, the thing that I really liked about it was the fact it took risks. Compared to Mario at the time, Mario was just get from point A to B,
00:25:16
Speaker
whereas Sonic was like globetrotting going all over the world trying to fight like AJ you know doppelgangers and things like things like that they kept you hooked and interested and then there was a game called Sonic Heroes which came out and this is when my view of it started to kind of sour I mean I'm probably in the minority but personally I'm not a huge fan of it because in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 they had like this kind of serious
00:25:42
Speaker
about as serious as you can for a cartoon, eh joke? But they had this semi-serious tone going on and then in Sonic Heroes it was like all of this Saturday morning cartoon. Oh yay, we're friends! And it's like, Sonic, what are you doing? You're far too family friendly. To which I think someone from Sega must have been walking by my house at that point because they went, okay, for the next game, we're gonna give one of them a gun. And it's like, no, wait.
00:26:10
Speaker
noise and it's like this is looking bad because I was thinking this when you said earlier about what makes a bad video game it's when they innovate too much and I don't know if you could call it innovation so it's like after Sonic Heroes there was the infamous Shadow the Hedgehog which I think a couple of months ago where it might have been longer I like streamed in the channel and I remember at the time not being quite lukewarm about it but see going back to and playing it
00:26:38
Speaker
it was just it was awful it was not worth it it was worth it you know to go back and experience like a chunk of it but see if i had to play the full game again i don't think i would have coped i think i would have just been like no forget this 10 different endings no and then of course you get the infamous examples where they tried to make final fantasy with sonic the hedgehog which is the weirdest thing i probably said in this podcast
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah, they made Sonic the Hedgehog or Sonic 06, which again, they've streamed on the channel. And yeah, it is just as bad. It was not a fun game. Well, bits of it were fun and I liked the fact they were trying to innovate and things, but it is weird because I think the thing that makes them bad is the fact that there's no consistency, which
00:27:26
Speaker
I know sounds weird because I'm saying oh you know it's really good that they are taking risks which initially it was but it almost feels as if what makes it a bad video game sequel is just the fact that they're throwing everything at the wall and they're just kind of hoping that something sticks and then recently with games like Sony Generations and things like that they've realized that they can kind of regress back to you know cashing in on the nostalgia which is a point I'll get on to with my next game
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah at the same time it's like there's just too much going on whereas nowadays they're trying to play it a bit more safe. I don't know if you remember watching me play Sonic Forces where essentially it was a it was basically like a weird saving private rhyme with cartoon hedgehogs. It was like really like a really weird tonal thing and I've got I think I kind of sums up
00:28:20
Speaker
where Sonic is. Like on the one hand, it wants to be like this kid-friendly, you know, oh look at us and everything, but at the same time it still wants to go back and be like, oh look we're doing something different, we're, you know, we're being this edgy franchise. And at the end of the day it's like, you can't be different if you're starting every game in Green Hill Zone. And you can if you keep bringing back classic Sonic because all the fans want them. And that's another thing like,
00:28:45
Speaker
Sonic fans in general, I should know like I've been one but Sonic fans can be terrible for that kind of thing. I don't know like how much you've seen of them online but yeah. Seen enough. Yeah exactly. Yeah I'll leave it there but essentially they're a very picky bunch which I can I can understand sometimes and then other times I'm like oh just yeah let let them go like let them let them pass peacefully.
00:29:11
Speaker
which I don't think he will because he's still such a recognisable character so it kinda doesn't matter but yeah that's the example definitely that there's too much innovation and I'm gonna quickly extend to another game and I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on it because we literally do have a full podcast episode
00:29:31
Speaker
based on this. I think it was either episode two or three it was about the Halo franchise and that's like another example like I think see by Halo 4 and to an extension Gears of War but you know like those kind of franchises are the ones where they're trying to build on themselves.
00:29:46
Speaker
but not in the right ways. Like, I mean, for God's sake, for Halo 5, there's literally a chart that tells you what you have to read to understand the story. It's like, oh, where does this character come from? Oh, you have to play Halo 3 ODST? Oh, where does that character come from? You need to read the novel. Like, utterly ridiculous for a video game. It's like, there's just too much going on in that, I think.
00:30:11
Speaker
for me personally that's what soured it honestly it looked like do you remember that samsa's episode where it's like the guy eats the lemon and his face just like twists into this like yeah that was my face throughout the entire thing i was just like holding back the tears just thinking
00:30:34
Speaker
Aww, because I mean, yeah, it's just, I think it hurts more because it's like you were saying with Logan's side, it's a game franchise that you get really invested in. And especially like when you're younger as well, you know, like especially for me in the case of Sonic, you get so invested in it and then all of a sudden it's just like, you just watch it like slowly changing into something that screams at you and says it's not a phase. And it's like,
00:31:02
Speaker
You know it's a phase though, but it just keeps going and going. The weird thing is, usually it's when they try to software-y, but have you ever noticed this? Not always. For the example of Doom 2016, that's a case of obviously a good video game sequel.
00:31:21
Speaker
but there are a lot of ones that when they're making the jump from like one generation to the next and it's like especially for the case when Sonic was just like finishing with Adventure 2 and then moving on to like Shadow the hedgehog and everything and then when it leaped to Sonic 06 and the Xbox C60 and the PlayStation that just
00:31:40
Speaker
yeah that is when I think like a lot of people just fell off the hype train for it and yeah it's just a shame but I think that is like exactly what you were saying before it's just that I suppose that need to try and make yourself so different but yeah it doesn't always work that's the thing it's like you do have to have that middle balance it does seem yeah it does seem weird that the tonal shifts that have happened
00:32:05
Speaker
in the Sonic franchise. I'd known some of them, but just listening to you go through and kind of detail the games. I know I was just complaining about that in Wolfenstein, but you could almost expect it in something like the Wolfenstein franchise, but it seems bizarre, just the rollercoaster of tone, the Sonic seems to have been on.
00:32:24
Speaker
Like, I mean, say what you will a bit like Mario or something like that. I have to admit, like, I'm kind of... I find it bizarre how it doesn't really innovate that much. Because it's weird, even it does innovate, like, a lot of people kind of think, oh, hold on now, you know?
00:32:40
Speaker
hold on wait a minute you know bring it bring it back like with um super mario sunshine a lot of people not a lot of people but some people considered that a bad sequel but only because like i mean it was widely it was well received and everything but i think compared to the other ones because there was like a lot of different mechanics that you had to kind of factor in i think a lot of people were kind of iffy about that so they kind of toned it down for like odyssey well they still made it a big sprawling adventure but and i mean even sorry galaxy i think came before that
00:33:10
Speaker
where it's like the focus mode on the Mario aspect than him having to have like a big water cannon. Yeah, it was more familiar. But I mean, usually they keep to the core, you know, usually they keep to the core like gameplay of get from point A to B using platforming. Let me sum up for you the way Sonic's gone. And this is going to be very, this is going to be a speedrun of some of these.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, you begin with like, you know, the pixel, the 16-bit era, and you know, it's literally just, hey, child, go fast. That's it. Point A, point B, defeat evil scientist. Then you get to Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, where you have to fight both a genocidal liquid monster and a genocidal space lizard from destroying the planet. And you're like, where could they go from there? Then they do one about friendship after that, which I was not a big fan of.
00:34:04
Speaker
Then they give one of them a gun to try and, you know, spice things up. It's like, okay. Then they give them hoverboards for some reason. It's like, okay. Bit of a weird stretch, but okay. It's kind of a spin-off. Then they shove them in fairy tales. Don't understand that one. Then they try to make Final Fantasy.
00:34:22
Speaker
through Sonic 06 and then they just like cut back and go to square one with like a couple of the other games after it but then they kind of go so far back that it's like every single game from that point has to have familiar old elements like as I said Green Hill Zone old Sonic even though like the original Sonic does not make sense you know and that's a whole like topic for another day but yeah that that's essentially the tones
00:34:51
Speaker
you're dealing with in this franchise it's like such a tone of whiplash and it's like I would say oh I can't wait to see what they're you know gonna do but yeah I'm holding my breath on it but only slightly. As a kind of fun as a fun kind of question for do you think do you think they should try and make more or do you think I mean obviously they will. Oh yeah.
00:35:14
Speaker
franchise but in an ideal world do you think it's worth it? Do you think they should try to see if they can recapture the magic or do you think they should just... I honestly think they're so far gone that they can just do anything and you'll still get people who say oh this is the best game ever which is fine you know like if someone's favorite Sonic game is Sonic Forces that's perfectly fine like I'm not here to kind of say your taste is terrible
00:35:42
Speaker
No, no, I'm not saying that at all, but like at the same time it's like a game like Sonic Forces could have been so much better and I think that's why a lot of these games kind of fall into the bad video game categories like for a sequel anyway because it's got the reputation of a beloved, you know, video game character and it's just like dropped the ball because it's like yeah we could do these things and I will get to another one after your next one but
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah, like I've got another game that's the complete opposite of this but I, you know what, I'm gonna end it there. Just let you go into your next game because yeah, I could honestly spend ages just ranting about it.
00:36:24
Speaker
a little tease there. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, that's when that'll be the next stream where I get you to play all the Sonic games. Oh, yes. So, yes, your second game. Well, continuing this, continuing this terrible train, I went for a much more classically bad game for my second choice and widely regarded as a bad game and a bad sequel.
00:36:53
Speaker
And that is, as in the thumbnail, Resident Evil 6, which really was the low point of the
00:37:00
Speaker
Low points so far. I mean, it's still an ongoing franchise, so it could hit an even lower point, but the current low point of the Resident Evil franchise. So yeah, it's just a mess of a game. It's a mess in every single way. It's a real, it was a real switch of genre. And in fairness, the Resident Evil games had been kind of slowly transitioning from survival horror into more action focused gameplay from kind of Resident Evil 4 onwards.
00:37:27
Speaker
But Resident Evil 4 had still got lots of elements of kind of survival horror and was very true to the sort of themes and kind of feel of the of the previous Resident Evil games. Five went a lot more action heavy. Although I still think I quite enjoyed five. Five was actually the first Resident Evil game I played, so perhaps that's why I have a bit of a fondness for it. And I think as well it still does have, it was starting to lose it, but I think it still does have some of that feel. Resident Evil 6 just has none of it at all.
00:37:53
Speaker
It's basically a straight-up action game, and it's a bad action game at that part. Most of the game doesn't feel like it was an evil game. It feels like a knockoff second-rate Gears of War. You know, your third-person cover-based shooter, and it's awful.
00:38:07
Speaker
It's another game that's too bloated, it's too long. So there's four separate campaigns in Resident Evil 6, all of like a pretty sizable length. For a start, there's too many characters. So you're playing as, because it was kind of co-op focused as well. So there's eight main characters, sorry, no seven main characters throughout the game. So the focus is all over the place. It's too many characters. You can't really get invested in any of these people.
00:38:32
Speaker
And as well, each of the campaigns tried for a different feel. And so one of them tried to be, tried to be more of a classic kind of survival horror affair. And it's the best of the campaigns. One of them is basically straight up third person Gears of War, straight up that. And then there's one, there's another campaign tries to go for it. It's, it's action focused as well, but it tries to get a bit of the, the older kind of feel of the older games and that you have basically an unkillable enemy chasing you.
00:38:59
Speaker
large point large points kind of similar to like Nemesis from Resident Evil 3 or like Mr. X from Resident Evil 2 but the thing is with each of the different fields the game feels so unfocused and it's really jar it can be really jarring going from one campaign to the next because you're just throwing two different games different games not done well the gameplay for the most part is dull
00:39:20
Speaker
as I say it's uninspired third-person cover-based shooting and it just feels uninspired all around and it was a slog like oh just completing this game and I saw all the way through and it was just a slog.
00:39:33
Speaker
You know, I don't, there's a couple of bits that I enjoyed, but overall, I just live back. I'm like, Michael, what a waste of time. What I could have done with those hours I spent playing Resident Evil 6, you know, I could have, I might not have written like, you know, the next masterpiece or painted, you know, the next whatever Mona Lisa, but I could have played a far better game.
00:39:51
Speaker
So I have to live with that for the rest of my life. I spent, I devoted all these hours to Resident Evil 6. So just an utter mess of a game. And yeah, again, it was, I think it highlights that idea of just jumping on trends and just doing it badly, doing it badly and when it doesn't suit your game. So yeah, but in a way it's good because Resident Evil 6 like led to a whole revamp, which led to Resident Evil 7, which I really liked and is
00:40:14
Speaker
well you know is well regarded and then yeah I'm very excited for a Resident Evil Village so perhaps in a way perhaps it was a good thing it happened but I just wish I hadn't played it and I hate it and it deserves it's a bad sequel and it deserves to be on that as equal as it is.
00:40:29
Speaker
I could be misremembering this, but was that not the one where they had the Left 4 Dead 2 characters as DLC? Like as skins for Resident Evil 6? I do not think, but I don't know if it would. I was definitely one of the older ones.
00:40:46
Speaker
I mean it probably would have been about the time. Feel free to check but I'm sure it was because I remember seeing one of these games and seeing the characters. No you're right they were. Because I remember seeing the Left 4 Dead 2 characters and that was just like that is that's just surreal.
00:41:03
Speaker
Like seeing these characters that you know you've played in the other game and it's like why are they in Resident Evil? Like obviously I know why zombies but it just seemed like a very weird stretch to just say. I think it was like a special mode, could have been wrong because I've never played it. The only like experience I have of Resident Evil 6 was kind of if it was your Craig that was saying that there's a scene where you're supposed to do like a quick time event and it's like if you don't press the button then nothing happens.
00:41:31
Speaker
That would have been Craig, because Craig was over at my flat. I was playing Resident Evil 6 time, and because it's co-op, he was over and we played a little bit of it. And yeah, there is a QuickTime scene where you're in a car and you're supposed to hit the button to drive away, and all the zombies are getting closer, and Craig was like, I wonder why I don't hit this button? And nothing happened. The zombies got closer and then just stopped.
00:41:58
Speaker
That honestly reminds me of kind of like in the same lines about sequels, but did you ever play beyond two souls?
00:42:06
Speaker
I mean, technically it's not a sequel to the previous one. There was Heavy Rain first, which is just an action movie or a murder mystery kind of game.
00:42:21
Speaker
but then they brought out Beyond Two Souls which is very similar because it's weird it's like in heavy rain if you don't do anything then there are consequences like if you don't you know like walk to the shops for milk you know you might get arrested for running over someone and it's like wait what you know like really weird they're gonna be like really weird things but at the same time there was consequences whereas for Beyond Two Souls or as a lot of people have pointed out Beyond Cooling
00:42:51
Speaker
two souls it's like it's just so silly but yeah in that one I remember it's like if you don't do anything the game just kind of does it for you like I can't remember if you can die in it but it's like there's no real way to mess up if you know what I mean like it just hold your hand throughout the entire thing and I do think that is the worst yeah like especially for you know a game like that where like especially for Resident Evil
00:43:17
Speaker
like, sex because I'm too much of a wuss to play Resident Evil. I mean, if you've seen me play throughout last, like, I was just screaming the entire time and just being like, oh god, oh god, oh god, oh god. But with Resident Evil, you know, it's that kind of, like, high action mixed with, like, palpable fear.
00:43:36
Speaker
at the same time because it's like although you can shoot the zombies there's always going to be that Mr X or Nemesis that's going to like come round the corner and just ruin your day and piss in your kettle you know like it's just it's not going to be a fun time but yeah it just it doesn't sound that fun that they're kind of taking that away
00:43:55
Speaker
It's really not. It's dull. Dull is the operative word for Resident Evil 6. One thing for a game to be dull, but when it's as long as Resident Evil, I don't even know how many hours, but it's like, it must be at least 10. It must be at least like 10 plus hours. And that is a lot of time doing this. And when your game is dull, oh my God. If you feel it, you really feel it. There's nothing worse.
00:44:21
Speaker
I mean especially, I can't even remember but there have been games where
00:44:26
Speaker
I've sat there thinking, right, I just want to speedrun this and get to the end, and there's just so much in between the end and the middle bit, which actually brings me on nicely to Manic's game. But before I go on to that game, is there anything else you want to say in memoriam of Resident Evil 6?
00:44:52
Speaker
My only fear is, because Capcom are currently remaking a lot of their old Resident Evil games, they've done two, they've done three now. Have they done something before? Or maybe they've remastered four, I can't remember. My real worry is that they're gonna get to six and just leave it. Let it die.
00:45:10
Speaker
the painful death it deserves. No, let it die. Let it die the boring anonymous death it deserves. Like just leave it alone. It was a bad, you know, it happened. We moved on. It led to better things. So that's anything. Don't revive it. If you're going to revive it, if you're going to revive it, make it a completely different game. It's just, it sounds terrible, which I know. I know. Yeah. That's what we're here for.
00:45:35
Speaker
It's like, that's why I'm here. Speaking of, like, games that aren't gonna die, I suppose. My next one is probably gonna be a bit of a controversial one. Maybe not, nowadays, but... Have you heard of the small franchise called Pokémon? I am aware, I am aware. Yeah, it's like this kind of niche indie franchise, where you go around catching monsters, you might not have heard of it.
00:46:00
Speaker
Oh god, yeah that joke never gets old. Where do I even begin with that? This is, so I was kind of thinking, especially going along the lines of what you were saying earlier, of games that innovate too much or change too much to the point they're just unrecognisable like Sonic, and then games that don't do enough to kind of change, which
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah, brings me on to, of course, the Pokémon franchise, which, say what you will, like, it is a franchise that has enough changes for it to be iconic per generation, but I feel as if they don't really do enough. Like, especially nowadays, I feel as if, like, with Sword and Shield, I don't know, like, how close have you seen, like, the controller side for the new games?
00:46:46
Speaker
I remember hearing, I don't think I'd, I didn't really read a lot much into it, but I remember hearing that people weren't happy with Sword and Shield when it first came out. Yeah, it's like, it's just the usual stuff. It's like the fact that the animations are terrible, that, you know, there's cut content and everything. You know, there's a lot of things to complain about with it. And I remember playing it through myself and obviously while it's not the best game, I didn't think
00:47:12
Speaker
I thought it was okay and I think that's what makes it a bad sequel because it's like one of the biggest franchises ever that's leaping from one hardware you know the 3ds and everything to the switch and it's like
00:47:27
Speaker
one of the biggest franchises can't get something like that. I'm not expecting to get it right like 100%, but it's the fact that it's like a game that is, you know, so prolific in people's mind that it's kind of banking on the nostalgia of, oh, the fans will kind of eat up anything. And you get fans, of course. And again, this isn't exclusive to Pokémon.
00:47:48
Speaker
like you'll probably get it in Resident Evil as well or Sonic or you know you'll get it in any game where despite the bad games they'll still kind of vouch for them you know and say oh like again I know I make a lot of Simpsons references but it's like you're the one you're homeless cooking the pig and the pig goes flying in the air and he keeps saying to himself it's still good it's still good and he keeps saying that until this pig is just absolutely ruined it's going through
00:48:18
Speaker
like you know sewer water and everything he's like it's still good and Bart has to like tell him like just straight he has to say it's gone dead and he's like I know he's just that kind of resignation of ah just and that's what I feel like especially with Pokemon but
00:48:39
Speaker
Although, I would take it a step further back with Pokémon Sun and Moon, which is something I was talking to a friend about. Actually, I was talking to them just before this stream.
Stagnation vs. Nostalgia in Franchises
00:48:47
Speaker
And this is a game that is... You know how the Pokémon games are? They're very text heavy because they won't pay voice actors. Obviously, they couldn't for Game Boy games and things like that.
00:48:59
Speaker
but nowadays they still don't have voice actors. For like Sun and Moon this is when they just took the absolute you-know-what with the story where it was like, it's like playing War and Peace but with magical monsters where you're reading all this text going across the screen. Like I was thinking of that just as I think you were discussing rather the idea of you just want the game to end and you're mashing the button.
00:49:23
Speaker
There's literally a scene at the end of Sun and Moon where you finish the game and you think, okay, here's the credits. And I honestly thought that it's the only Pokémon game other than Diamond and Peril.
00:49:39
Speaker
like years ago but it's the only game where I've been so thoroughly bored and wanting it to end and then the game teased me by saying oh you thought you thought that you were gonna end the game well we've got a post credit scene I was like well you have to go away and catch like something else it was just I was like I was just like don't you coward do it
00:50:06
Speaker
It would not. It just kept going on and on and it was miserable. It was just utterly miserable. And I feel as if, as I said, I keep saying with a franchise like that, you might be thinking, well, Pokémon, you know, it's like any other franchise. You know, it's popular but maybe it's not. It's like the people who are making it are still human and everything. It is the last time I checked and unless a miracle has happened in the last five minutes of us recording this,
00:50:35
Speaker
It is the biggest selling media franchise in the world. It absolutely surpasses Disney, it surpasses Hello Kitty. It surpasses so much and I think that's why. If there were a standard studio that just made game after game,
00:50:59
Speaker
they're kind of in the same league as Call of Duty, where it's just it's almost at that case where they're still trying something different but they don't want to stray too far from the core gameplay. And it's just it's just as weird to see these franchises that you grew up with, whether it be College or Pokemon or whatever.
00:51:19
Speaker
say you know that they're going to be oh we're going to be different we're going to be this is going to be the next game and then you actually play it and you're like this is the same game just with a coat of paint this is literally the same game and it's the fact that they do have the resources i think that is like something that does stick
00:51:38
Speaker
when a game is media like a sequel rather as mediocre but it has the potential and the resources like for example one of the games like i've like ranted to you about was that we happy few yeah and i mean don't get me wrong that one was that was horrific as a game on its own at the same time was that not crowd funded it was yeah i'm sure it was kick started yeah i'm sure it was and then was it not picked up by another studio or something
00:52:04
Speaker
Yeah, it was picked up by a big studio, which I think a lot of the changes were made. I don't think it was that good to begin with.
00:52:11
Speaker
I mean, it sticks in my throat to semi-justify this game, but at the same time it's at least a sliver of hope, if you know what I mean. At least you can understand why things went wrong with Pokemon and Call of Duty and games that are just on the timer, even with FIFA. I think FIFA as well, they're setting their ways.
00:52:38
Speaker
They've just like, they're sitting on the armchair, they're just relaxing back, you know? They're drinking the whiskey going, we've done all we can do. I think mediocrity with big studios is bad. Like, I do think there's no excuse for it. And again, as I said, I don't want to be like,
00:52:57
Speaker
oh i could do it better you know because that's what i always worry about when we talk about these kind of topics like i don't want to be shitting on people's professions and being like oh yes of course i could have made a bet of course i don't you know like i don't know the first thing about you know video game creation but at the same time that is their job isn't it?
00:53:19
Speaker
We're not so much like crapping on video game developers, because I don't think they actually get to make the decision for the most part about what direction the game is going in. That's made higher up. So we're crapping on executives, and that's fine. Nobody likes executives. I don't think executives like executives. We're fine to crap away on them. I think developers get told, here's what you're making.
00:53:44
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely. See, the weird thing is, so there was actually a quote just kind of quickly looking back to Pokémon. There was like a quote I remember. So one of my favourite games, and I've said this on stream and on record, but one of my favourite games was Pokémon Silver. That was like the Generation 2 games, and I loved them. Like, I adored them. They have their problems, of course, because they're like, you know what, I'm not even going to calculate it because it's going to make me sad. I hold the games up.
00:54:12
Speaker
they did come out in the 90s early 2000s anyway but yeah like they remade them a couple years later under the fourth generation and those games had so much packed into them right that is by far one of my favorite examples of it and like i think the creator of it just turned around and said you know oh i just wanted to pack so much in like you can get like a lot of easter eggs like the original music from you know the game boy games yeah
00:54:40
Speaker
into the game and things and you get Pokémon 4 on you, it's like almost the ideal game. And then Generation 5 came along which was by far one of the most drastic changes, which personally I love. It's a very difficult game but at the same time I thought they had a good thing going but because it was kind of, it wasn't received as well. Although then again it's like a drop in the water. It's like the Scrooge McDuck sitting in Tendo. I just kind of like, oh.
00:55:10
Speaker
You know, oh, this game's not doing well. So then when they moved on from, so that was like when they moved from the original DS games to the 3DS and yeah, just like reverted back to Bear Basics because they remade another game and it was spoken on Sapphire and Ruby and they did it for the 3DS.
00:55:30
Speaker
and a lot of people complained because a lot of the features were stripped back and they kind of teased that up. Now I can't confirm it 100% but the quote that seems to be going around is the creator for that one was like and again this is like kind of relating to Banjo-Kazoo or Banjo-Kazoo nuts and bolts where it's like kids these days are on mobile phones playing games you know they don't have time for you know complicated you know like mechanics and things which I think is they're such a lazy lazy lazy excuse
00:56:00
Speaker
for it is like no the kids will still play it there's no there's no way it's just I think it's I think that's what angers me the way you like that kind of franchise is going and I suppose it's like when the franchise like that goes into autopilot do you ever feel like that when you watch like one of your favorite franchises just go into autopilot and it just brings out the same game over and over again
00:56:25
Speaker
I think that's, just to be a complete cynic here, I always think that's an inevitability. When they reach, when they get so much money, why would you change it? Here's my question to you as well. You obviously can't speak for every single Pokemon fan.
00:56:43
Speaker
in the world and stuff, but I don't know. Do you know, is there like a clamor for there to be like a kind of change and overhaul to Pokemon or are people, do you know, people are generally kind of satisfied with what it is and are happy to have games, you know, just come out that are having to be adapted?
00:57:03
Speaker
There is, from what I can see online, there is a huge divide between Pokémon fans. You've got Pokémon fans on the one side who are absolutely content with just selling along with the franchise and just saying, oh, Game Freak know what they're doing. That's the kind of thing that
00:57:23
Speaker
really upset me when I was younger because I remember I used to watch like a lot of bad films and play a lot of bad games but because I was under the impression that obviously these were the experts making them you know like oh it's a film in the cinema therefore it must be good and you know like I was an optimistic child what can I say
00:57:44
Speaker
it's like when you play these games and as well you see the potential so the recent thing that's come out just now is footage for the new pokemon snap game and oh yeah
00:57:55
Speaker
Like some of the visuals in that are just beautiful. I'm not a big fan of Pokemon Snap, never played it. So I've not got the same nostalgia, but I can't deny that it's a really beautiful looking game. And then you look at Pokemon Sword and Shield, which is the main franchise game, which I think Game Freak have just got their claws into that they're not going to let anyone else make a mainline Pokemon game. And I think that's hindering them. They've had spin-offs like Pokemon Colosseum and
00:58:24
Speaker
Gale of Darkness games like that that they're not perfect and i'm not going to be like oh if someone else had it you know it would be the perfect game it wouldn't be it wouldn't exactly be the perfect game but it's that kind of stepping out of your comfort zone if you know what i mean like stepping stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new which is exactly what they did for gen 5 and then of course they got cold feet and
00:58:53
Speaker
and then they decided to reverse the decision and be like oh no we can't have a pokemon game that's totally different we have to like go back to the beginning and i will maintain that like i think the final nail in the coffin for me was pokemon cinnamon where i don't know i mean considering that is the game where they've got official art of a Pikachu getting killed by a sand castle and
00:59:16
Speaker
I'm going to move away quickly from that one because it just gets me angry that Pokemon are trying to kind of be like half edgy, half... I mean it is exactly like as I was saying for the fanbase you've got half of the people who just sail from game to game and you know it's because it's like the way I imagine it it's like Game Freak are like an artist you know they paint a painting and it used to be for Generation 1 and 2 they would just add bits to the same painting
00:59:41
Speaker
like there would be like overhauls and differences but it would be like touching up what they already had and then for like gen 3 so whenever they go into a new console they always like throw away the painting and you know they create something new but it feels as if now that's not enough
00:59:57
Speaker
because it's like they'll have something really good. Like in Generation 6 they had this thing called Mega Evolutions, which was just basically like a Digimon evolution, essentially where it was like, I mean it was a really interesting concept and everybody liked it, well not everybody, but lots of people liked it. And then in Gen 7 where the sun and moon came in, it was like right we're getting rid of that, okay. What are you going to put in instead? Oh we got these moves where your character dances and then your Pokemon does a strong move and it's like, but that's lame.
01:00:27
Speaker
you
01:00:29
Speaker
It's lame. I don't like that. But of course, people went along with it and went, oh, Z-Moves, yeah, they're cool. You know, it's like a 90s, you know, like a 90s marketer trying to convince you, like, oh, look at these, like, tinfoil pogs or something. And it's like, oh, I can't wait to bring those home and put them in the collection, you know. But then when Sword and Shield came out, it's like, literally, all they did was they said, right, we've got Pokémon. OK.
01:00:59
Speaker
What if we made them bigger?
01:01:02
Speaker
And that was it. That was a big innovation for that generation. That was a big gimmick. And I think people now are just sick of it. So as I said, you've got the one that you've got the coasters and then you've got the ones who are just like basically starting a mini revolution. But at the same time, this is the issue with bads like video games or bad sequels anyway. The fact that at least for the bigger franchises, like at least they can afford to make bad sequels. Yeah.
01:01:30
Speaker
because this is the issue. They'll make bad video games and because people are voting with their wallet rather than... because honestly, see when Pokémon Sword and Shield came out and all these glitches and things were coming out, everybody was saying, don't buy this game, don't buy Into the Hype, don't pre-order it. But of course, it's a game for kids.
01:01:51
Speaker
Kids are gonna see it, parents are gonna, you know, buy it for them. They've got no chance. And it's this idea again of like, they can just kinda coast and, you know, be lazy and comfortable. Whereas I think, and I'm quite curious to hear what you think about this, like, see with games like Gears of War and Halo, do you think they are starting to feel the pinch? Like, obviously they're still prolific.
01:02:15
Speaker
I think certainly Halo certainly I think is, and that's why I think they're trying to go in a very different direction. I think is why maybe it's what it's taking so long for Infinite to come out. I think they are trying to go in different directions because I think they have felt the pinch. Gears of War, I don't know, I'm going to be honest, I'm very detached from the Gears of War series.
01:02:33
Speaker
It's just something that doesn't really interest me. So I don't know. I don't blame you. You played the Gears of War. How different does Gears 5 feel from something like Gears of War 3 or 2 or something? Does it feel like a different kind of game or does it feel very similar? Absolutely. 110%. That was another one of those games where I just thought
01:02:56
Speaker
I want to get this over with as soon as possible, like rushing through. And there was like big moments where certain characters died and you were supposed to feel sorry for them and you're just like, it's bold of you to assume that I care.
01:03:11
Speaker
But it feels very different then. Yeah, definitely. Because the weird thing is with... I like to think of, you know, the Gears of War franchise, like the Alien films. The first one's more of like a survival horror. You still get the guns, you get the chest-eye walls, you know? And, you know, you shoot the aliens or the technical aliens, but let's not get into that.
01:03:32
Speaker
But you shoot the monsters and yeah that's it, well done kid, you've saved the world. The second one's more like a big action game but I had like a lot of really, you know, emotional moments. And even the third one, although the third one was very mediocre, it wasn't the best but I still enjoyed it as kind of like a finale. Nearly knocked over my glass, one second.
01:03:57
Speaker
was like I was angry and then they brought a Gears of War judgment which was like a kind of middling it wasn't great that was just like it was there it was a thing it's a thing that exists and I remember when I ordered it online the box art came in French and I'd ordered it off of eBay so I think this was like 2000 and like 2014-15 I think I got it and
01:04:26
Speaker
I remember ordering it off a eBay and looking at the thing and thinking, oh god, what if the whole game's in French? This is just gonna be... Well, on the plus side, at least I can brush up on my French, but fortunately it was fine. But yeah, it was not great. The weird thing is, it didn't spoil my perception of Gears of War because it was its own thing.
01:04:49
Speaker
but I do think there's a lot of parallels between like Years of War 4 and 5 and Halo 4 and 5 because they've already had like this self-contained and I suppose you could say the same technically for Mass Effect. I haven't played much of it but from what I've seen it's kind of similar where it's just this trilogy where the third one is kind of... it is mediocre but still kind of beloved by fans. You're like I mean for the campaign syndrome.
01:05:16
Speaker
It's still beloved because it's still attached to that franchise, and at least then people are like, this is the worst this franchise can go. And it's like, oh really? The worst it can get to. Really.
01:05:30
Speaker
Okay, um, robots. It's like what? Yeah, but in Gears of War 4 we're gonna introduce robots and all this like family drama that's gonna, you know, rival Atela Novella and it's like, no. And this is the thing as well, this is, and I can't believe I'm comparing these games to like,
01:05:52
Speaker
to like Sonic the Hedgehog or something. But it's like these games that are banking on the nostalgia and you can tell like when a game is so like it's not confident in itself that it has to rely on like past characters like for example in the case of Halo you've got the Covenant which makes no sense with
01:06:12
Speaker
was spent like over an hour in the other episodes of Chatsunami talking about this but you've got the Covenant who come in and there's no reason why they should be there. There's absolutely zero reason whatsoever but they're there because people know what the Covenant are. They're like that's an Arbiter, that's this and that. I know they're called elites but you know it's like there's that brand recognition and it's the same with Gears of War 4 where it's like oh the locusts are back and it's like
01:06:42
Speaker
only they put like a slight twist on it so it's like it's not the covenant it's like oh it's the remnants of the covenant it's not the locus it's like an evolution of the locus which basically just
01:06:58
Speaker
See, this is the thing, see when the story wraps up, see in my films as well, when the story wraps up and just, you know, completely self-contained story and then the secret, it's a bit like, because I know you're a huge Terminator fan, but it's basically kind of what happened between Terminator 2, which is
01:07:18
Speaker
of course like an amazing you know amazing film and Terminator Judgment Day sorry I was just trying to remember what it was called where there's a line that sticks out to me and that is when he rescues John Colliner and he turns around and he says you know oh we stopped Judgment Day
01:07:35
Speaker
and Arnold basically turned around and says negative, Judgment Day was inevitable, we only postponed it. And that's what it feels like for a lot of these franchises that keep going. They're not trying to do a new thing, they're not going with different characters or expanding the universe. They're literally just focusing on the cash cow or space cash cows in these examples and just milking it for all it's worth. And that's what really annoyed me.
01:08:05
Speaker
that and it's 100 gigabytes to download which i didn't realize when i bought it digitally so more fool on me but yeah i played four did not enjoy it five even more so did not enjoy it like it's just so again it's not as bad as Halo 5 in the sense that there's so much lower and everything but it just there's too much going on
01:08:28
Speaker
There's absolutely far too much going on. They have to cut it back a bit. You see, this is the thing. This is like, and again, this is the last Simpsons reference I'll make. As you know, when they're talking about itchy and scratchy, like what they want to reinvent the show. And it's like, so you want a realistic, down-to-earth show with killer robots.
01:08:48
Speaker
I wish you'd win things by watching! It's like that, where it's like, you're not going to please everyone. That's the thing, you're not going to please everyone. But at the same time, you have to have some kind of consistency there. Otherwise, you're just going to get a mess. I mean, look at Sonic. That is just hobbling along at this rate. Sonic is like the kind of
01:09:09
Speaker
like, overweight, like, 90s kid who's sitting there looking back in the good old days of, like, the genesis and everything thinking, ah, he used to be a cool guy. And I mean, technically I suppose for Sonic it's got the movie. And I did watch the movie, the movie was actually alright, but, like, things like that that's kind of keeping it relevant, whereas, and I mean, like, with Resident Evil you've got the, like, remakes, or not the remakes, what do you call them?
01:09:37
Speaker
That's it. They are remakes. They are like remakes. Well, not really reimagining. They're remakes. Yeah, like, I mean, Resident Evil is in an upswing right now. As like a series, I'd say like it's a lot of like positive kind of feelings behind it.
01:09:52
Speaker
I don't know if some people weren't as big as Kino Resident Evil 3 and stuff, but for the most part it's still on a kind of upswing. Well, I do think some of these other franchises are on a bit of a downswing, which is why some of them are trying to kind of reinvent themselves. I think, again, it just comes just thinking about like the last point in kind of Halo and Gears of War. It is that, it comes back to that issue that we talked about.
01:10:13
Speaker
earlier on where it's you know you have a self-contained story okay so like over the first three Gears of Wars and the first three Halo that's a self-contained story.
01:10:23
Speaker
But then it's like, oh, let's try and keep this going. It's artificially trying to prolong it. And that's why, as you say, then you then get resurrection of these kind of classic elements of it. And they kind of get jammed back in again. And it feels forced. It doesn't feel right. And it feels very artificial. But that's because they have tried to purposefully prolong. They're trying to push these stories on past probably where they should, past their natural endpoint.
01:10:52
Speaker
Yeah, it just doesn't feel natural. I mean, I'm not saying obviously all developers are like, oh, you know, these gamers are just, you know, they're silly, they won't notice. But I mean, it is insulting when you see like certain developers who are just like completely detached and they're like, let's just shove that out and then think it's gonna be good. Like, I mean, I suppose one of the infamous examples is what happened to the Metal Gear franchise. Yeah.
01:11:21
Speaker
which I know we could spend a whole chat tsunami on that one, but my God, I know obviously it was legal disputes and things, but when they went from a relatively fleshed out game to zombies, and it's just... That's the ultimate example of innovating far too much. I use innovate in quotation marks. It was more spite. An awful example.
01:11:47
Speaker
I would have put that in if I'd played it I would have put that in as a terrible sequel but I haven't played it because it looked terrible and I will not be playing it I totally agree I will never play it
01:11:58
Speaker
Then again, I'll probably never finish Metal Gear Solid 5, and not because it's bad or anything, just it's such a long game. I was going to say I have a better chance of completing Persona 5, but you know what? You're probably the same length. You might have more interest to push through Persona 5.
01:12:17
Speaker
One day, one day Adam, one day. So yeah, final points. This is going to be quite, this is going to be another subjective question but what do you think bad sequels, like going forward, what do you think these franchises or just any kind of company who's made a bad sequel, what do they have to do to kind of pull up the bootstraps
01:12:41
Speaker
infects the mistakes. I don't mean like... They need to take a good long look at themselves in the mirror, number one. I mean, I don't know. In an ideal world, there really just needs to be some self-evaluation and re-evaluation and just think, you know, just re-evaluate and be like, okay, why didn't this work? You know, it's okay to have a failure and
01:13:05
Speaker
to have a disappointment, like, you know, it's just real human beings at the end of the day. I mean, it's going to be perfect. So just some proper time just reevaluating and being like, why didn't, why didn't this work? And then maybe moving on from that as well, as well. I think sometimes you need to listen to the fans.
01:13:20
Speaker
Sometimes you don't. It's a very difficult thing because, you know. And again, this is a very subjective thing. I could be like, oh, you should listen to this fan base, but you shouldn't listen to this fan base. But I do think, but then again, like I'm saying that, but then again, perhaps you should always listen to the fans because they're the people who will buy your thing and keep your franchise afloat. I guess it really depends on the size of your fan base. If you have a big fan base,
01:13:45
Speaker
maybe listen to them but if it's a small one maybe don't so you can get more fans in i don't know that's maybe very like mercurial but i don't know see i would kind of flip that on its side to say that there's just one game that comes to mind with that and that is mighty number nine oh fair enough
01:14:04
Speaker
just where it's a game that probably had too much you know going on or like with the fan input and it's the same I see when you look at pokemon like some of the fan games some people make I kind of despair when I see some of them and they're like edgy gritty you know don't get me wrong like
01:14:23
Speaker
I think it should be an all-ages thing and they have been kind of, I don't want to say violent, but I mean you do in like Generation 5 for like the black and white games, you nearly get impaled by the main like antagonists and things. There's like some really dark stuff in that, but they do it in such like a good way that it feels natural, if you know what I mean. And yeah, I don't know, I just I couldn't play a game with it all wearing fedoras.
01:14:52
Speaker
I mean, not that I've seen it, but I've seen it all wearing indoors. Maybe the answer then is, maybe the answer is to maybe not so much listen to the fans, but to reflect on what made your first game, what made it initially popular. What do people like about it? And try and capture that spirit. Try and innovate with the time. Again, this is one of these things, isn't it, of having like, I suppose they'll have a new cake and eat and they just want everything.
01:15:17
Speaker
You know, keep the original spirit, but do try and innovate with the time because it is important. You know, your game does need to keep up with the development. But don't try and don't do like a or a or you can forever maybe and just try and artificially force you like this horrible mash up of things that just don't work. Yeah. So I'd say importantly, think of the tone. Think of what made your game popular in the first place. What was the spirit of it? Because if you capture that as a good chance, you'll be you'll be on to a winner.
01:15:44
Speaker
It's getting, as we said at the very beginning, it's getting that balance. Like, at the same time, it's like, don't be afraid to, you know, don't be afraid to try different things. Because I know technically, like, gaming companies might be afraid because they might lose, you know, they might lose some either fans or they might lose money because it's not successful. And obviously, like, some companies can afford it better than others. Just look at Sega and what happened to them.
01:16:14
Speaker
Which, there is that worry. There is that worry that they're trying to cash in on popular brands. I mean, look at the way Call of Duty's going with Warzone. I don't even know
01:16:28
Speaker
I mean I could be totally wrong but I don't know if that would have ever came into their minds if Fortnite and Apex Legends and you know all of those like games wearing hard hitters and you know leading that kind of genre. Although I'm saying that now but I can't remember when Apex actually came out so if it came out after Warzone, apologies, I think it came out before but you know what I mean like. Yeah well certainly Fortnite and PUBG were there. Yeah yeah. I can't remember when Apex came out either but
01:16:57
Speaker
But yeah, but you're totally right. I mean, I don't think maybe they would have come across it, but definitely I don't I don't I'm tempted to believe they wouldn't have, to be honest. I haven't seen somebody else do it and be like, we want a piece of that. Because I mean, was that not what happened to Black Ops 4 when they just made it completely a battle royale? Yeah, well, that was that was the first big, you know, that was wars. And maybe it wasn't Cold Wars. It was called Blackout or something.
01:17:22
Speaker
Oh, black out, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was, you're right, that was the first time they did that. It was a big part of the thing. Yeah, they also have a podcast episode about that as well. I think it's like episode, again, it's like episode two or three, I think it's episode three, maybe, but, or it could be more. Might be four, actually. Oh, no. Ah, yeah, no, it was further along, actually. Yeah, third one was harder here, right? I think it was the fourth one. I know. We're ten episodes into, like, Chat Tsunami. We're building the Chat Tsunami lore here.
01:17:50
Speaker
history in the making what a ride it's been but yeah definitely you have to have that balance though to kind of break out of that bad cycle i want to say because it's like it's that kind of like i don't want to totally be like critical and be like oh they're all bad you know but at the same time you're like come on
01:18:14
Speaker
Yeah, unimaginable, yeah. But I mean, I suppose if you were stuck with a game franchise for that long, you know, you would be a bit lazy in some respects.
Personal Reflections & Gaming Preferences
01:18:25
Speaker
Probably, probably. But also as well, like, I kind of feel like if you had the chance, you probably would maybe want to do something because I don't know, like, you know, maybe not everybody, but I feel like a lot of people
01:18:35
Speaker
don't like doing the exact same thing over and over, or maybe people do, I don't know. But I feel like human nature kind of makes you want to at least try something new. But then again, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a decision of many of these people. I think it's, it's higher up people with their spreadsheets and, you know, the graphs, graphs, all that kind of like, and some of that kind of stuff.
01:18:54
Speaker
because funny you should actually say that because I remember when I was getting really into Call of Duty like up until I think it was up until Modern Warfare 3 maybe was when that kind of like went off the series or maybe just before it I can't remember it was that kind of period
01:19:11
Speaker
and I decided that you know that way years ago I mean it still is but you have that mindset of it has to be one or the other so it's like for example when you were younger oh is it Pokemon or Digimon is it like College of Two or Halo but in this case for me it was like Battlefield and College of Two and
01:19:30
Speaker
I remember switching over to Battlefield 3 and not particularly enjoying the campaign that liked the multiplayer, which is what swayed me. And then I played the fourth one and it sucked horribly. Like say what you will about the franchise, like Call of Duty and things, but at least it was coherent and I didn't hate most of the characters in that. Yeah, like, again, I could spend like... I could spend a whole hour just talking about how much I hated that game.
01:19:58
Speaker
maybe that's another podcast oh no definitely just terrible characters horrible glitches when it came out the you know door at lunch just uh yeah that was a bad seal
01:20:11
Speaker
for that one I know oh god yeah i honestly could run about it but it's been so long since i played it like i do have such a hatred like every time battlefield four comes into like conversation which is more than you'd expect you know i just like wretch i'm like
01:20:28
Speaker
your blood boiled yeah exactly i'm just like oh just no no i keep meaning i keep meaning to try it out you know what try it you know we should just stream of it sometime and then you will see all i'm saying is irish that is
01:20:45
Speaker
Oh, that character is by far one of the worst characters. Before we wrap up, I'm going to give you a juicy insight as to why I have such a visceral hatred for this character. The reason being that he is inherently a dumbass. He gets you fired from your position as a captain, I think.
01:21:05
Speaker
He openly yells out military secrets. He openly yells out in the middle of a city that's evacuating. Oh, by the way, we've got a warship. And then he has the cheek to challenge you every single turn. And it's like, see if you're making a sequel.
01:21:21
Speaker
This is the one thing I implore. If there's any game developers that somehow, years and years into the future, start listening to this, for the love of God, do not make your characters unlikable. Play through it once, see what I mean for Battlefield 4 and just be better at creating characters. And again, as you can hear by the very calming tones of my voice,
01:21:54
Speaker
So basically in the words of internet scholars, get good. That's all we'll say. Get good. Just please for the love of God. Oh, goodness me. So, yeah, I think that's probably a good place to wrap up, would you? I think so too. I think we're on top of that. Is there anything else you want to address? No, no, I think we've really covered.
01:22:17
Speaker
Not a good time. You're over it.
01:22:24
Speaker
covered
Game Development Challenges & Value Discussion
01:22:25
Speaker
everything you know again i just think again it's such a it's such a different i only
01:22:29
Speaker
such a difficult thing to make a sequel a video game sequel i can only imagine and sympathize but at the same time get good get good get good come on now video games cost a lot of money they do try and make them good my god do you know this is honestly what i think like sorry just one more quick point like see when you see video games nowadays like obviously when you were younger you would ask your parents and you wouldn't really know how much they cost yeah like when you were really young i mean but
01:22:59
Speaker
It's just like, now you look at it and you think, how much? How much? Forget that, I'm not paying. Although granted, I think I did pay store price for black ops, the new one. Which is different because at least we've had a share of fun out of it. I feel as if I bought that for myself and played it, I would be a bit more bitter. You'd want your money back. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, we've got a whole podcast episode on that.
01:23:28
Speaker
about the Black Ops franchise, so feel free to check that out. It is a doozy. It really is a top tier, top tier bad sequel material. If you want more of that, then definitely check out the Black Ops episode that we did. You'll see why we got angry.
Conclusion & Future Engagement
01:23:50
Speaker
So yeah, let's wrap up there. Once again, Adam, thank you so much for jumping on. What is now the 10th episode? My God. I know I said it earlier, but I genuinely can't believe it's already been 10 episodes. I'm just happy you've kept me on for this long. No, of course, for now. Here's for another 10 more!
01:24:08
Speaker
10 more reps. 10 more reps. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to leave it to you guys. You know, if you want Adam to stay on as a host, please get a hashtag going like hashtag. Well, it was a good ride. Well, I'll pack my bags now.
01:24:41
Speaker
Yeah, no jokes aside. No, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much. If you want to see more of my content, you can see me on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Twitch, of course, and TikTok under the name Satsanami42. And as always, we will be back again next week around 8pm, give or take, GMT. I'm saying that with beating breath, but probably we will be.
01:25:02
Speaker
disappear into the wild, disappear into the wilderness. No, but thank you.
01:25:07
Speaker
usually yeah without further ado thank you all so so much for listening stay safe stay awesome and most importantly stay hydrated bye guys bye