Transcript
Speaker: is the marketing funnel. Dead. Or is it still alive? That's the question. Welcome to ah ROI University. a higher ed marketing show for people turning big ideas into real results.
Speaker: Join Rustem Arani and Chris Shepard as they explore the strategies, stories, and technology shaping how institutions connect with students. From marketing and enrollment to data and AI.
Speaker: Every conversation brings a fresh perspective and something you can put to work. This is ah ROI University.
Speaker: Welcome back to ROI University podcast for higher ed marketers. and leaders who want to change the game and themselves. I'm Rooster Mirani. Your co -host, recovering engineer.
Speaker: and former higher ed CMO. along with Chris Shepard, my co -host. 20 -year marketing veteran and... our tech guru on this side. So Chris.
Speaker: Welcome back. I'm excited about this episode. One thing I'm... Obviously excited about is how relevant this topic is with HubSpot having their Unbound event this year this week. I know we have a lot of folks that we know that are attending. And a big thing they're going to be talking about is this marketing loop. Right. Where they're kind of.
Speaker: Talking about how. The funnel. may not be the way to look at things anymore. It's really a loop. And when they talk about their loop, right? The way they look at it now and what they're talking about is really kind of four stages of their loop. They call it loop marketing, you know, and the four stages of that are is like expressing. who you are as as a brand right amplifying yourself across multiple channels tailoring your messaging and your content to their to them.
Speaker: to your customers, and then evolving in real time based on these conversations and interactions. now That all sounds great. And to me, that makes sense.
Speaker: But what are your thoughts, Chris? like well Have we moved away from this funnel or or or not? You know what that really sounds like to me? Later, Chris. No like.
Speaker: and trust, right? they're just putting different words to it. We've seen this all throughout Like. The digital marketing history. Somebody just tries to put their own spin on what's already.
Speaker: tried and true and no like trust to me is just it's the foundation of the marketing. And so we got to get people to know us first, right? What does that look like awareness, exactly the same thing you just talked about. We got have to get them to like us. They know about us, like us. So we need to get that consideration phase. And so what does that look like? Getting in front of the people that already know us and sharing that story and that message. And then, of course, the last one is the decision making. Know, like, trust, and a decision.
Speaker: piece but to take that actual action and become a customer. And to do that again, you're just staying relevant in front of all those people that know you and like you. And it's just hard to get a buyer if they don't.
Speaker: have any of those things, particularly in these markets. I mean, look, if you're buying a t -shirt off TikTok, that's one thing, but when you're spending money on digital marketing or paying for leads or whatever it might be, those are higher ticket items. And you really need to understand what you're getting into because a lot of the, a lot of times they have
Speaker: contracts involved and whatnot. But then if you're marketing in the higher ed space and, you know, obviously you've got students coming in who are going to pay quite a bit of money to attend your college or your university. And so we really need to get people in that understand, know, like, and trust us. And so I think that, I don't know. I just don't buy it. I think we're just putting new new names on things. That last step. yeah Have we ever seen this before, Chris? This isn't new. you Come on. yeah We've never seen this before.
Speaker: That's what we do as marketers, like even at a point where. you know, the four P's of marketing, right? Product positioning, price, promotion, and replacement. And, you know.
Speaker: I tried to kind of reinvent that and rethink about how we could look at that a little bit differently, you know, now. and Yeah, I think at the at the core of it, it's it's funny because, you know, it was just...
Speaker: Listening to a podcast where they were talking about this, one of the books that's actually, I really saw a book, The Scientific Life of Advertising, Ogilvy, like. was he's he was built off of that book. And it goes back to the basics of advertising. And again, I think that plays really well with what you're saying the no like trust, right. But I think one area where I do believe it's changing in a little bit, like, I don't know if it's a loop, like I still believe in the funnel as well. But I do also see like,
Speaker: I think. And Neil Patel talks about this, the search everywhere optimization, right? SEO is not just search engine optimization is search everywhere optimization.
Speaker: So I still feel like... Now, whether it's a loop or not, but I think like amplifying yourself across multiple channels, I think I i do think that's important. But that's at the top of the funnel, right? That's the no part.
Speaker: Would you agree? What are your thoughts? Yeah, 100%. And yeah by the way, I mean, I didn't make that up. That's the old like Ryan Dice, digital marketer from back in the day. You know, he came up with the know, like, and trust. I think it's just carried forward. But again, it's still the... awareness, consideration, decision. But I think, like, no matter how you spin it, it is that thing. And then, like, like what once you get past that.
Speaker: Then what is it? What does it look like? Obviously, remarketing, nutrition or, you know, getting. somebody, whatever you're selling, getting somebody to buy more of those things or stay enrolled or whatever that might look like for, you know. whatever you're doing but yeah I think It's just... The same thing.
Speaker: yeah i can't I can't beat that, you know? like Yeah. And I think, you know, it's funny that you say that, too. Like, you see a lot of these things. and you know, i I do enjoy reading. And when I do read some of these books, one of my biggest challenges, Chris, is like, like, I just started reading Mindset. And You know.
Speaker: Honestly, like I have a challenge because sometimes i I feel like some of this stuff could be common sense or I've read it before. somewhere else that I've already kind of picked it up, right? That's right.
Speaker: And so you know mindset is about... your positive mindset. Like you either think you can or you think you can't. And. The premise behind the book in my first two or three chapters, like that's what it was telling me. Yeah that's right. and I struggled with that a little bit.
Speaker: completely honest, and I stopped reading the book. And I've got it. It's up there. but I just stopped reading it because I was like. I've heard this before, right? And I do believe it. I do believe in positive mindset. I do believe in, you know, work ethic and and putting this stuff forward to kind of move things.
Speaker: in the right direction. But again, going back to the loop The other part of the loop is tailoring your customer customer message, right? Tailor it to your customer. Is that new? Yeah.
Speaker: Well... No. And yeah, like If you don't mind, I'll i'll share the screen. so I think like the way we have it positioned and tailoring your.
Speaker: you know understanding your personas, right? Understanding your audience. Not every single message is going to, you know, have this light bulb moment for everyone. Like, look, if you're in
Speaker: higher ed and let's just say you are in some kind of career vocational um where there could be someone fresh out of high school. going to it. There could be a career changer later on in life. There could be someone who maybe knows a lot about it and maybe they're actually in the business, but they really want to go and get some kind of ah certificate or something behind them. Those are three different personas that you have to talk to differently and meet them where they are. So
Speaker: nothing's really changed there, you know, and I think it's just the same thing of understanding who your persona and not your audiences are. This is something that we've been talking about over the last few days and really understanding for our clients too. What does that look like? You know, what, How do we actually go out there and really...
Speaker: Drill down on these audiences and these personas and really send this targeted messaging to them, not in a. Not in a... You know, like. painful or or awkward way for them, but like meet them where they are actually in their life and in their decision -making process, because we know they exist. And so, yeah.
Speaker: Can I share this slide with you real quick? Yeah, go for it. This is kind of like... To your point, though, I think it's like. disruption right like disrupting them right in in what they're doing like especially with social media and we know this like they're scrolling and if you're stopping them from scrolling you're obviously disrupting their flow, right? Yeah. But if you're...
Speaker: If you're stopping them with relevant. tailored. content that speaks to where they are. And let's just say their buying journey or where they are in their current.
Speaker: life situation and it speaks to them. then you're not disrupting them. You're actually supporting them. And and kind of. That's right. you know, in that and that process.
Speaker: At the end of the day, we're trying to solve. the problem. I mean that's... That's what we're doing. and everyone has a problem Whether they're actually interested at this exact moment in solving it, they know that they have it. And.
Speaker: You know. Are they? They have it in the back of their head and they're kind of just thinking through it. Not now. I'll wait for later. I'll wait for times to change. Or are they in that process of actually exploring and finding someone? Are they actually in the... process of actually making the decision. There's a lot of things around that. And that's kind of what we narrowed it down to. I mean, when we look at things, when we look at the know, like, trust, we look at intent recognition. so ah The lead comes in. By the way.
Speaker: You're going to get leads through all of these different sections of the funnel. They're going to be different. Some might cost more than others for sure, but. Again, meeting them where they're at. so The lead comes in. there' social led mostly, you know, and they they've kind of got this idea.
Speaker: We intent the cultivation, we intent the conversion. And so what does that kind of look like from that? The idea of school is there, but it hasn't taken shape. So if you're in higher ed, the intent recognition, the no. is ah they aren't searching yet, but they're scrolling, right? So just like you just said. They're in social, they're in TikTok, Instagram, whatever it might be. They're scrolling. and They run across us. they might
Speaker: They might just keep scrolling. but they're going to continue seeing that face or that brand. And eventually, they're probably going to stop. so how do we talk to them aspirational outcome first here's the life that this leads to right again Based upon your persona, it might be different, but we're still.
Speaker: Having that know process, that intent, that ah recognition. that recognition There. leads to stage Real Inquiries. We want them.
Speaker: They're going to take longer to enroll because, again, they don't have the the trust part down yet but we're probably going to get leads because That is just what happens. They have some interest.
Speaker: And then oftentimes we'll reach out to them and you might pick up. A few. enrollments and starts from it but most of the time we're going to be nurturing these leads for sure um You know, you go back into the like.
Speaker: like ah like segment of this intent cultivation and They're actively researching. They're comparing programs, their schedules, costs, and outcomes. They know they want something. They don't know. They don't yet know it's you. So they might have seen you. They're still, or they might have might not have seen.
Speaker: your brand yet. but they're actively engaged in searching. And so now Now they're really trying to figure that out and probably comparing schools and programs and stuff like that. The nice part about this part of the funnel is that if they actually know you, they're more opt to kind of consider you and to put you in that running than if they didn't, because if they're in this.
Speaker: part in this section of the funnel, and they're actively searching, they're really actively searching. And now you're really relying on SEO, AEO, or all the things that have to happen for you to show up during that search.
Speaker: Yeah. So that's why that no sections, really. important And I think that's one. big part of what they're also trying to push in the messaging right a lot of folks are is like Now more than ever, especially with the LLMs and especially with no click, zero click.
Speaker: And all of that, like. Your brand, if if you do have... ah clear messaging of your brand, your differentiators, all of those things and your ideal audience.
Speaker: you know that's critical. That's more important. Not only that. But where you're showing up is also important, right? so That's right. yeah multiple different areas and and parts of.
Speaker: of the ecosystem which i think continues to diversify even more For sure. You know, and I think we're going to continue to see that. Especially, and you mentioned shopping earlier, so I...
Speaker: i I think I saw it on somewhere, but... I don't know. There's Gary Vee fans out there. But Gary Vee was talking about like he's really big on social shopping, right?
Speaker: Like. Who wouldn't? want to see somebody. Like you either go to a website and you look, OK, I want that T -shirt or I want those pair of pants or whatever. Or you see somebody on TikTok who's wearing them, who's kind of showing you the fit, who looks like that's right, you know, is enjoying them and and comfortable in them and like.
Speaker: Who would you purchase from a website? Are you going to purchase from somebody who's actually wearing them, giving you feedback? And they look like you. And they look those people look like you. And that's the thing. So you and and the more influencers, the more.
Speaker: Of these folks that are coming out there, which. I do see a lot of that happening that's right That's where you're going to see that. You're going to see a lot of that. And then even for us. From.
Speaker: a higher education standpoint. Where are those? and And actually, there are some even students that are now influencers in the space. We actually have a client of ours That's in the HVAC space. And one of their students has their own channel and talking about how they're going through their program, what they're learning, how amazing it is and how they're. you know, gone from the corporate life to hands on.
Speaker: ah Trade and they're excited about it And every new tool they're they're kind of talking about. and they're getting engagement. How powerful is that? right Yep.
Speaker: Bye. Yeah, I think it's amazing. I i think, again, it's just... Keeps going back to the good old solid three states funnel. I mean, there's probably more.
Speaker: ah involved it Or I know there's more involved in it. but You're going back to the funnel, Chris. Is that what you keep saying? I'm just, the I just love the this funnel.
Speaker: You know why? Because I can like visualize it. I understand. Things are changing. But... You're doing the same thing. in different ways, if that makes sense. Right. And so as more channels come out there, as people start exploring and.
Speaker: And they're. They're making decisions differently. They're still making decisions, and they still kind of have to go through these different sections.
Speaker: And so, yeah. intent the like. like paid search paid social seo and program because because They're going to find you either they know you already, or they're going to find you in some kind of search result as they're going through and and comparing and and doing there.
Speaker: due diligence and research. And then finally. uh the trust intent The conversion, right? They're ready to act. They're looking for a reason not to be nervous about it. So if they already know you, they already like you.
Speaker: Now they're going to trust you and they're more up to. Follow through. ah Whether they've already put in a lead form or request for info form or not. This is the stage where they're probably going to do that. and They're not going to be as cold per se.
Speaker: ah They're probably more apt to move forward. Or if they haven't known or liked you yet, They... Probably you're more up to like, they're ready to make a decision now.
Speaker: Yeah. soon at least and so they're being very proactive in regard to researching and finding and comparing and and moving forward in the process. Yeah, and I think that's a good point. I think this is a big one, right, for a lot of schools right now. It's like, how is AI changing?
Speaker: the discovery and consideration. Right. yep Now, whether it's the loop and looking at it from a discovery point and that or it's the funnel, the awareness and and so on. I think like that's the reality is like.
Speaker: there are There are changes happening in that. um You know, and we're seeing a lot of that kind of impact. where people are showing up, how they're showing up, or where brands are showing up and how they're showing up, right?
Speaker: And I think the the other side of this also, Chris, that I'm a big. believer in is like It... doesn't necessarily like that experience and and that journey from a marketing standpoint doesn't necessarily have to end at the enrollment.
Speaker: Right. People are still... looking and talking to alumni, your new students, they're still getting a feel for the experience. They're still getting a feel for the brand and everything you talked about. Like, is that true? Is that real? Right. And they're still experiencing these things. So I think it's important to kind of think about that and continue to put that type of.
Speaker: experience forward. through their entire and even after they graduate from an alumni standpoint. That's like a huge part of marketing in itself is like if you're ah not already taking an advantage of your current students and population and alumni and creating your advocates and your tribe, as you call it. Well, that's a big part of it because they're going to help.
Speaker: do some of the marketing for you and what better way to do that than like Take care. people who've actually been through your programs and have them tell their story, how they found you, how they got there, why they did it, what they loved about the program and the journey. I mean, and what they're doing afterwards, what great way to leverage that too. So maybe that's part of that fourth step. I don't know.
Speaker: But I'm still like, you know, no like and trust. I'm still there. Yeah. No, and I think... Again. I'm curious to hear about. I think it ends today or maybe it ended yesterday, Unbound. But I'm curious to hear a little bit of feedback. I know we know some folks that that were there for the conference or are there. And just see if there's anything else that kind of comes out of that. but you know
Speaker: I think like we both said, like there are just some core fundamental marketing principles that have been around since. the And even prior to David Ogilvie, he actually...
Speaker: picked up a lot of his stuff from others as well, right? sure Yep. Yeah. And if you guys are actually, if you guys are post this on LinkedIn. And if you're watching this on LinkedIn or you want to. cruise over to our LinkedIn channels. Leave a comment below and let us know what you think about this. is it really changing? Is there more to it than what we're suggesting? Or is it still fundamental, but there's obviously nuances and differences inside of those segmented funnels? I'd love to know what you guys think too.
Speaker: Hey Chris. I also think what would be fun for us since like... On your end, there's a ton of ai stuff you're working on, not just on the school side for clients and so on, but even internally.
Speaker: And I know you post a lot about what's happening in the AI space. So I think what would be cool for this podcast is maybe have like an AI minute once a week where maybe you just kind of give a pointer, you give a tip, you give some feedback or something on what's happening in the world of AI and maybe provide ah ah a little bit of insight there.
Speaker: Absolutely. I think that's a good idea, too. And I think as we dive deeper deeper into things, and especially in the higher ed market, I would love to help you understand how to leverage and use AI. like Claude or.
Speaker: um Chess EPT or perplexity, whatever you're using. not just to like start. having a conversation with it, but really feed it data. And when I say data, I mean, no PII. I mean, just numbers and try to help it.
Speaker: spit back and understand and analyze that data and how you can use that data to move forward and make decisions. And then How to like maybe schedule that and create your own little scheduled agent that does that maybe weekly or whatever. And so I just want to share a. a tip with you guys and i'm going to share my screen here because i actually Every week I write.
Speaker: a newsletter. It's called The Prompt and it's on my LinkedIn. You can go and check it out on'm on my linkedin .com. I think it's a forward slash C Shep 11 S H E P P 1 1. You could check out my newsletter there.
Speaker: um And every week I just talk about. AI and how it's impacting or what it's doing inside of the higher ed space. And then One. Part of it is the prompt tip here. And I did want to share this because I think it's kind of neat to see.
Speaker: and use in action. And some of these prompts that I share weekly. Some of them could be kind of more. starter, some of them are a little bit more advanced and require some setup. But this was kind of neat because it can actually write an agent brief ah that you can use every single week. And so whatever this might look like for you, and whatever data that you want to feed it, you can actually create these scheduled reusable tasks.
Speaker: ah that it will run weekly or. whatever cadence you. suggested to get some data out of it. And so now you can start having feeding it data, getting data back and start having conversations.
Speaker: about your actual data and how to leverage it. So Here's a good example. Um, We wanted to delegate the busy work, and I think this is a big part. When I was in sat in as a VP of higher ed.
Speaker: And. marketing and higher ed. I was. Always trying to figure out. how to delegate a lot of this work as you probably are aware you're working in Excel spreadsheets and Google sheets and all the things. And then when AI came along, I thought, well, how can I leverage this to help me kind of like create some of these reportings or.
Speaker: Or. or uh mine some data out of what we already had in some of these reports. And so. This is kind of the goal of that. and so This actually is a...
Speaker: is a prompt that allows you to... ah take Take the prompt. Feed. Put it into ChatGPT and feed the prompt. actual data. And so you can see here,
Speaker: What it's going to do is it's going to Tell it you're a marketing analyst for the enrollment team at a career -focused college. That career -focused college could be your college. If you want to just keep it generic, you can. But you're giving it instructions, essentially. You're letting... The AI know. what it actually is. And so attached is our monthly inquiry.
Speaker: And here's the the source report. It's attached. well We'll include this. Yep. Show notes as well. Yeah, absolutely. we' definitely increase and prompt in there. So...
Speaker: August 2026 channel performance. with july 2026 alongside it for comparison plus a second tab breaking august down by program so again i fed it a sheet with different tabs in it, but I want it to understand what it is so that it has context. Because again, you just don't want to feed.
Speaker: Sure. the i see that I see people do this a lot. They just give it, say, hey, give me... XYZ. But it doesn't have context and understanding of what it actually is and what you actually want to see from it.
Speaker: Each channel row has spend inquiries. cost per inquiry applications and starts. Write a one -page summary my VP of Enrollment will actually read, work through it.
Speaker: work through it in this order. And so now you're giving it further instructions. So calculate the month over month change in total spend. Name the two channels with the best cost per start. Flag any channel where cost per inquiry rose more than 20%.
Speaker: Again, you're giving it. specific instructions yeah note the top program by starts in any program with notable inquiry drop Now you're going to feed it some guardrails. You're going to tell it what not to do. And I've got a prompt and I'll show it to you over here. but Actually, let me do that here real quick. Let me Let me just share a different screen real quick.
Speaker: i think this is going to be easier to see so if you're looking at it You're looking at it here. You're going to see my full prompt, the guardrails, right? Use only the numbers in the report. This is really important because I've seen people not do this and then.
Speaker: like chat GPT or Claude, we'll just start hallucinating and start making up stuff. Like, yeah. And don't know why. it rail is Putting guardrails is pretty key with any of this stuff. I think that's where some people also get kind of. Cut off. That's right. And so, look, if a figure is missing or looks inconsistent, mark it. Flag it. If it doesn't make sense, let me know. Do not guess or invent anything. That's important because...
Speaker: Again, at the end of the day you want numbers that make sense. This is an analysis only. Do not draft outreach and do not present spend changes as decisions. Frame them as options for the VP to weigh. So we just want analysis. We don't want any recommendations because, again, the.
Speaker: The AI does not have complete context of all the channels and all the things going on. And it's just going to like make a guess at what it honestly. Yeah. And here's the thing, Chris, I think you and I have both seen this and in talking to to folks as well. They'll like.
Speaker: basically start to use what they believe are their prompts. And they'll try to get certain things. They'll try to get insights and direction. And we see that a lot on the campaign side. but Again, Without the context and understanding. Year over year, what was happening? Why does it make sense? Is there a seasonality?
Speaker: um How many were there three fewer reps this year versus last year? Does that is that impactful? Like, there's a lot of context there that doesn't kind of give it to for the insights and just kind of high level, I think.
Speaker: you know ye Obviously, this is this is powerful. And again, we we will share. that This will be on YouTube, obviously. um where you can kind of see this a little bit more in detail, but we'll share.
Speaker: The prompt. in the In the notes. Yeah, and this this is kind of a more simple prompt, if you will, but again, the You want to be able to engineer prompts to have certain sections and give it.
Speaker: exact instructions and then you can see I even went As far as the... give it output instructions. And so Here's the data. Here's the guardrails. But now what do I want to see on the other side? And so I'd give it. given it that, and then here's what it spits out. And so this is just inside of ChatGPT. You can have it give you an Excel or a PDF or whatever, but here it it goes in and gives us August produced 6 .3 % more starts than July. And it's doing exactly what I told it to do and given me.
Speaker: that act that The numbers has given me what's working, what's not working, what I'd look at next. And then it's giving me those flags. I told the flag things if it didn't understand it. July program figures are missing. So no program inquiry decline can be established. We didn't have anything. so it
Speaker: It didn't take that into consideration. It told me it's missing. If I want to go back and add that or anything, at least I know that and now I have a chance to rerun this, but. This is something that's great. And again, you could schedule this. So you could even.
Speaker: Go into your cloud or chat GPT. You can. I think you can even right -click on the actual prompt in the sidebar and set it as a schedule, or you can even tell ChatGPT right here, schedule.
Speaker: Schedule weekly. Let me see. Schedule. yeah And Chris, I think. So we are getting up on. Kind of. Time. On our side,
Speaker: But what I will mention here to anybody who's kind of listening. if Chris is always available. You know, if you have questions on any of this stuff, I know he loves this stuff.
Speaker: is is really passionate. It's got... a ton of insights and and data around it. So yeah, feel free to kind of reach out. on our end and we'd be happy to kind of go through more details what's being done here Absolutely.
Speaker: So I think the biggest thing here, Chris, for today, and we might need to rename that to the marketing 10 minute instead of the marketing minute. No, I know i know you're're you're passionate about this stuff. And I think there's a lot of value. And I think on YouTube, you all will probably get a little bit more where you're actually able to see some of what Chris shared. And again, we're always available to kind of talk through it. i But I think.
Speaker: At the end of the day, um whether you call it the funnel, whether you call it the loop Whether you call it Rollercoaster, Whatever you call it. like The reality is there's still some key fundamentals, right? No, you know, like trust, right? And other ways to look at awareness, consideration, decision. There's a whole bunch of ways to look at it. But yeah, I think, you know, there are some key things that you want to make sure. And, you know, you just want to understand that, like, hey.
Speaker: What are your students experiencing across their journey? Whatever that journey is, however that journey looks. You really need to know. who those students are, what they're experiencing, and what those outcomes look like.
Speaker: That at the end of the day is, I think, what it all boils down to. So, Chris. Awesome episode. Thanks again. Yep. And that's all for this class of ROI University. We're the biggest ah ROI.
Speaker: is personal.
