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Kwatsáan Voices, Kwatsáan Views - Ep 54
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On today’s podcast Jessica interviews Zion White, Charles Arrow, and Aaron Wright from Archaeology Southwest, a 501c3 based in Tucson, Arizona. Archaeology Southwest is working with several Tribes in southern Arizona to establish permanent protection for the Great Bend of the Gila, a rich cultural landscape nestled between Yuma and Phoenix. Today’s guests have been documenting the Great Bend of the Gila landscape together over the past several years. They talk about the significance of this landscape both culturally and archaeologically, how they’d like to see the place treated, and what it means to them to be working collaboratively on documenting this cultural landscape.
Links
- Heritage Voices on the APN
- Arizona Republic Article about Great Bend of the Gila
- Archaeology Southwest Magazine 34(1): ‘Iihor Kwsnavk: Connecting and Collaborating in the Great Bend of the Gila
- Hanging with the Xanapuks Podcast [Pilot: Discussing Quechan issues and commentary on culture and more.]
Contact
- Jessica
- Jessica@livingheritageanthropology.org
- @livingheritageA
- @LivingHeritageResearchCouncil
- Lyle
- Lyle.Balenquah@gmail.com
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store
Affiliates
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
We're excited to announce that our very own podcasting platform, Zencaster, has become a new sponsor to the show. Check out the podcast discount link in our show notes and stay tuned for why we love using Zen for the podcast. You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Episode Introduction and Context
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to Heritage Voices, Episode 54. I'm Jessica Uquinto, and I'll be your host today. And today we are talking about Quetzan Voices, Quetzan Views. Before we begin, I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the Neuch, or Ute, People's Treaty Lands, the Diné Ta, and the ancestral Puebloan homeland.
Panel Discussion on Southern Arizona Archaeology
00:00:42
Speaker
So today we have Zion White, Charles Arrow, and Aaron Wright on the episode, and they're going to introduce themselves here in a minute. But first, let me tell you a little bit about what we're talking about. So Archaeology Southwest is working with several tribes in Southern Arizona to establish permanent protection for the Great Bend of the Gila.
00:01:02
Speaker
which is a rich cultural landscape nestled between Yuma and Phoenix. Today, we are speaking with representatives of Archaeology Southwest and the Fort Yuma Quechán tribe who have been documenting this landscape over the past several years. And just a quick note that Archaeology Southwest is a sponsor of the Archaeology Podcast Network, but they have been a great friend of the Heritage Voices long, long before that they were a sponsor.
00:01:31
Speaker
And I've been bugging them to get someone on the show for a while now. So not just because they're sponsored, but just because I think they're great.
Guests' Archaeology Journeys
00:01:40
Speaker
So welcome everyone to the show. Welcome. Hello. Hello. Hello. So this is Aaron Wright. I'm a preservation anthropologist with archaeology Southwest in Tucson, Arizona. My name is Charles Arrow. I'm a member of the Fort Yuma tribe son. I've been working with the archaeology Southwest for the last couple of years documenting and
00:02:01
Speaker
Do we get an entry for the Petroglyphs that we're working on? And I'm Zion White, a member of the Quechuan tribe as well, grown up on the reservation all my life. And I'm fortunate to be on the Outroot Project along with Charles Arrow, working with Aaron Wright.
00:02:16
Speaker
Perfect. All right. So I'm really excited to start with the question that I always start with, but I'm interested to hear the different ways that the three of you got interested. I guess let's start first with just archeology in general or this, this type of work in general, and then we can get into the specifics of this project later. Well, I guess I'll start. This is Zion again. And with archeology, it's a part of, uh,
00:02:44
Speaker
our culture as indigenous people. And I've always been a part of my culture with singing and dancing and learning about cultural history. But I've been like unknowing of petroglyphs and I haven't really spent too much time looking for them or seeing them personally. And I was with the volunteering with our Quachron Culture Committee at the time. And this opportunity came up to intern with Archaeology Southwest. And I was one for the opportunity and they're gracious enough to let us on.
00:03:13
Speaker
My passion for archeology really started, you know, when I was young being involved in my culture and now I'm just involved in a different side of my culture, which being, you know, logging petroglyphs and now entering them in this database, which hopefully will present them for a longer period of time. Well, for myself, I could say archeology really came into my life when I was living in Tucson. I have a couple of buddies of mine who are archeologists that work with different companies out there in Tucson. I'm not sure which ones, but when I would talk to them after they came home and stuff,
00:03:43
Speaker
I'd be interested in hearing what they had actually done, a lot of excavation and surveys up. And it was kind of interesting to me because I was pretty much ignorant of archeology until I was talking to them and they were telling me about cultures in the area. So that was my first real interest, but I was fortunate enough to be able to work with archeology Southwest through the cultural committee on my tribe. My aunt was a member.
00:04:12
Speaker
And she had said there was an opportunity to learn a little bit more about our history So with interesting definitely different from the job description. She had told me so I Didn't think I was gonna stay with it. But here I am two years later still on this project with Erin and It would just really that first week that got me into the that first day really of working with Erin finding out
00:04:38
Speaker
pottery sherds and just random little bits of pottery and stuff. It just blew my mind to think that there were people out there after a while. People survived out there. Before I knew it, it was back to my own tribe, my own culture and stuff, who were all in that general area. So this is Aaron. I've been interested in archaeology since I was a little kid. I'm from southeast Ohio, Appalachia country, and right there on the Ohio River,
00:05:07
Speaker
And my earliest memories are walking around what we call mounds in that part of the world, the mound culture, Hopewell and Adena mounds and the Marietta
Perspectives on Archaeology and Cultural Connection
00:05:18
Speaker
earthworks. I pretty much grew up in Marietta. And so it's been a part of my life since I can remember and
00:05:27
Speaker
coming from the East, we don't have well-defined descendant communities. So archaeology out there for me into my early adult years was done in a particular way and for a particular cause. And I moved out West. I got my first job in New Mexico out of college about
00:05:47
Speaker
a little over 20 years ago. So it was a real eye opener to be around archaeology where there were descendant communities still in place. And so just since then, I've been working on my own personal development with learning about
00:06:03
Speaker
the great people that made this country great before we came along. And I spent the early days of my career in cultural resource management, predominantly working for compliance for mines. And so the first five years of my archaeological career, we were salvaging sites or not really even sites, we were salvaging the data from sites before they were blown up.
00:06:26
Speaker
And coming from Appalachia, that was a painful legacy in that part of the world. So I took the first opportunity I could get to sort of work for the other side. And so for the past 15 years, I've been associated with archaeology Southwest and
00:06:42
Speaker
we're heavily invested in preservation and protecting heritage places. And the past four years, I've been working on a project in the great bend of the Gila. And for the past two years, I've been fortunate to actually work with members of the of the Quetzon in the field. It's been so far the highlight of my career. OK, so I really love the theme that you were touching on there. And I kind of want to
00:07:12
Speaker
ask all three of you now, you were talking a little bit about how archaeology was maybe different than you thought it was going to be. So first of all, for you, Erin, could you maybe talk about, you know, have you been back to those mounds? How is your perspective on archaeology
00:07:32
Speaker
changed. I mean, obviously you talked about working with descendant communities and these other aspects, but maybe going back to where it all started, I guess. And then the same question for the other two of you, how has doing this type of work changed your perspective on archaeology? What perspectives did you have about the field before doing this type of work?
00:07:58
Speaker
So Aaron, why don't we start back with you and the question about the mounds and then we'll go to Chuck next. My perspective on archeology has changed and is constantly changing. When I first got into the field, it was about the data. It was very much a science paradigm and any more. It's about honoring
00:08:23
Speaker
others and respecting land. And doing what I do is not necessarily for the data, it's for the people. And so when I've gone back to my homeland, which is very infrequent, I left my homeland because I didn't like it.
00:08:41
Speaker
When I go back there now, I have a very much a different appreciation for where I'm from. Definitely the mounds, the archaeology of my homeland has been important. I have a new appreciation for it. I really have a new appreciation for how the community of Marriott, Ohio is really invested in preserving those mounds. They have been for
00:09:05
Speaker
you know, well over 225 years. So I guess I've I've come full circle and I'm very proud of where I'm from. Love that, Chuck. Well, my perspective really changed with just working this job. The only other like history and culture I had experience was through funerals and just other other gatherings and stuff on the reservation. So I didn't really I don't I don't I really don't know anything
00:09:34
Speaker
as far as my culture goes. So when I started working this job, it was kind of an eye opener to see like people have been out there for as long as they have. And they had a voice. They had, had something to say. They, they, they were families. They were people. They were just, they were out there and going out there and actually documenting stuff like that. It was, it just, it was crazy. I couldn't.
00:10:05
Speaker
couldn't believe it. Like we have to, we have to document and save all these things, these sites and these petroglyphs and stuff, because then what I did realize was there is a lot of destruction and just blatant, you know, not, I don't want to say ignorance, but people that, that do like to go out to reservations because we do have recreational areas and a lot of the sites that we do work on are recreational areas. The amount of destruction that goes on, it's sad.
00:10:35
Speaker
Sad to see like people just running over pottery shards or you know, just history history of the people in the area so It was just a job to begin with and now I can see the impact that we're having because we are we are having magazines put out and articles and stuff like that about the job we're doing because we're actually making a difference of like preserving culture we're for part of the movement I guess or something like it's
00:11:05
Speaker
more and more important with every trip out to the field. Yeah, absolutely. And we will be including the links to the Archaeology Southwest magazine about this topic. It's beautiful. You should definitely check it out. And it goes, I'm sure a lot more in depth than what we're going to be able to get to in this podcast. But Archaeology Southwest, they always put out a beautiful magazine and I love that they always make a point of
00:11:32
Speaker
including the descendant community perspectives. And then we'll also include at least one other article, maybe some others in the show notes. So definitely check out the show notes. And last but not least.
Archaeological Documentation and Preservation Methods
00:11:46
Speaker
Hey guys, my perspective on archeology was starting this job. Like I stated before, I hadn't really seen this side of my culture as far as petroglyphs, but now I get to be around like thousands of panels and thousands of petroglyphs. And I'm the one logging them along with, you know, Chuck and Aaron and
00:12:02
Speaker
We're out there with our clipboards in the middle of nowhere. And it's really impactful to me because, you know, like I said, we get to be the ones and so grateful for the opportunity through Archaeology Southwest to be doing this. And I hope to see, you know, the end goal is preservation in what we're doing. And that's what I hope to see, because my ignorance, I guess, to our archaeology or rather with, you know, me thinking we're going to be going out and digging for things or going out moving things or I don't know, you know, but now it's more
00:12:31
Speaker
just what's on the surface and what do we see out there. And there's a lot. And like Chuck said, you know, there's a lot of articles and things getting published about the work we're doing. And it's really touching to see that the level of people out there actually care about what we're doing and what we're trying to preserve, even though they might not be indigenous or from the same tribe, you know, they really care about preserving what other people put there. And that's something great to see. So I guess I really got an appreciation for archaeology more than anything.
00:13:02
Speaker
my interpretation on it. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess we're at about a break point and I want to get into the more specifics of this project after we get back from the break. So we'll be back here in a moment.
00:13:23
Speaker
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00:13:51
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:14:44
Speaker
All right. And we are back from our first break. And before we get into the specifics on the Great Bend of the Gila project, I'm curious if either of you, Zion or Chuck have had really heard anything about the area prior to working there. Yeah. If, if it had been something that had come up for you beforehand. Well, with the Gila Bend area in itself, it's really interesting part of the Quaton history.
00:15:14
Speaker
Our history as Quatsan people is not only ours, but it's shared with other indigenous tribes throughout the Southern California and through Southern Arizona. And it follows a pattern of migration. It follows a story, a history that we have that starts in Needles, California at Aviquimay, Newbury Mountain, going down to the coast towards San Jacinto Peak, towards Baja, California, in the San Diego area, back towards Yuma.
00:15:44
Speaker
And then in Yuma, without saying too much, a historical leader in our tribes, somebody very important to us, they passed away in Yuma. And as a part of the history, you know, they migrate towards South mountains in Phoenix. So that area in between Yuma and South mountains is Hila Bend. And in that area, there's so much history that correlates to that area in particular, because of the things that we're finding out there and able to see a lot of the images and petroglyphs correlate to
00:16:14
Speaker
the animals that are incorporated into the Quechuan history, because when we talk about Quechuan history, it's not only people that are incorporated into these stories, it's the animals as well. So these animals are key characters in these stories in history. So my knowledge of Hila Bend is that it follows a storyline from all the way in Nenos, California, down to the Southern California coast, back towards Yuma.
00:16:38
Speaker
up to South mountains and then back to Aviquimé. And that's not only Quiitán history, like I stated, it's shared between other indigenous cultures throughout, you know, the Southwest. So could you all maybe talk about the moment that it became recognized that there should be, you know, more protection for what sounds like a very important place and also that aspect of working with the other tribes that you mentioned
00:17:06
Speaker
and coming together on this effort. So at Archaeology Southwest, we've been envisioning a landscape scale preservation for the Great Bend region, which we define as pretty much from where the salt and the Gila come together outside of Phoenix to around Dateland, Agua Caliente Mountains, about 70-75 miles upriver from Yuma. And
00:17:35
Speaker
We've been invested in an effort out there for about a decade. And I came onto the project about six years ago and we were totally just looking at the archaeology. And I was blown away by just how rich the cultural landscape is out there from an archaeological perspective. And when I got into the literature and trying to figure out who the descendant communities were,
00:18:02
Speaker
That was really a dimension that hadn't been explored too well for that region. And the more I read, the more I learned. Currently, there's actually right in the Great Bend, there's the small community of San Lucy, which is a district of the Tohono O'odham Nation. And they're right there in Gila Bend. But outside of that community, there really weren't any contemporary indigenous communities
00:18:26
Speaker
right there in the Great Bend. We've identified at least 13 federally recognized tribes that have ancestral and cultural and historical connections to the Great Bend of the Gila stretching from California to New Mexico and of course Arizona. And so we got really interested in reaching out to the tribal communities to learn about their values for that landscape and it's through that process where the current project became a reality
00:18:55
Speaker
And about four years ago, I seek some assistance from the National Endowment for the Humanities to work with several tribes to actually do field recording on public lands in the Great Bend of the Gila. And so we were operating on that for a number of years. And then when COVID became a reality, came into our lives, we actually
00:19:19
Speaker
sought additional assistance from the National Endowment for the Humanities so that we could over the past year, we've been working remotely, pretty much digitizing all of the field data that we collected. And then on top of that, digitizing other people's field data that they've collected in the Great Bend area, but then also across Southern Arizona into a pretty large database.
00:19:42
Speaker
And we've called the project the Lower Gila River Ethnographic and Archaeological Project, but amongst the insiders here, we call it Elgreet. Great. So could you talk a little bit more about, you mentioned that you've been taking the data and putting it into this database, but what data specifically are you putting in there?
Fieldwork and Petroglyph Documentation
00:20:06
Speaker
Like what fieldwork were you guys doing?
00:20:09
Speaker
prior to COVID specifically? Well, I started with the project before Zion had come on. And at that time we were just, we were doing a lot of survey work. So we're out there just looking for, we're actually going through sites and locating pottery shards and stuff like that. It was really just pottery shards to begin with. And then after a while we'd have to move on.
00:20:37
Speaker
And then we started doing work on petroglyphs. So we would go out to a site that Aaron had researched or whatever, and we would go out there and we would basically just walk the area. And until we found something, a rock would, you know, petroglyph or scratch marks or something like that. And we would just document. So Aaron would go running around with his GPS and his compass so we can get a bearing or like a
00:21:05
Speaker
general direction what the petroglyph was facing and we would document it like that every individual one until there wasn't any more it was this it seems like a slow process but after a while it was you know we were just being thorough of the area and then we would move on to the next one move on to the next one depending on which site it was it was either pottery sherds or petroglyphs but it was just on to the next site
00:21:34
Speaker
onto the next site to whatever we could find. Yeah. So was it when you first came on and neither of you, it sounds like had done archeology before, was it really like infield training or did you guys have some days in advance that you were learning about the different types of, of archeology or how did, how did you guys go about learning how to do the documentation process? Like Chuck said, I came on not too long after him into the project a few months later.
00:22:04
Speaker
But when I got on with the project, it was a lot of going on to old sites that hadn't been recorded in maybe, you know, 40 to 50 years. And a lot of times it was just a circle on a map, you know, and saying that there is artifacts here. So when we go out with there and a lot of times we have to GPS exactly where the last artifact is found and where the first artifact is found. So we get a better understanding of exactly what's out there. And it was to the point, you know, we were flagging each individual shirt.
00:22:34
Speaker
in a five by five area, and sometimes it could be, you know, sometimes the clusters would be 50 shards in that area, or sometimes it would just be a couple, but would still have to, you know, set out the hundred meter tape, set down the flags for the five by five meters, and then go into those boxes and find out what was there and flag them so we get an unbiased representation of what's really out there with the shards and stuff and the arrow points and the geoglyphs.
00:23:03
Speaker
But later on, we started working on these petroglyphs and going along these ridges and mesotops and really seeing exactly how much is out there. And I don't know for exactly allowed to say how many is out there right now that we have entered in the database, but it's in the thousands. It's going to be, you know, one of the biggest petroglyphs sites in the Southwest when we're done with this database, hopefully. But it's been a long process and what we've been entering into the system is the petroglyphs one by one as they're logged.
00:23:32
Speaker
So each individual motif has a different code. And then Aaron takes GPS points of the obsidian we find, the arrow points we find, the shards we find. And every site has a new GPS border of where it starts and ends now, as opposed to, like I said, just being a circle on a map. Because when it was like that, it was kind of hard to go out there and he would, you know, would spread out into survey mode. And all of us would start walking along alongside each other and
00:24:02
Speaker
somebody would find something, would all stop. Aaron would have to come over and look at it, GPS it, would all start walking again. And just like Chuck said, one by one would find these sites until the point where it got super dense and would have to set up the five by five meters to get an unbiased representation of what was out there. And we found so many sites out there and it was really just a great opportunity to be a part of it and see what's out there because it's not only
00:24:25
Speaker
Indigenous history, it's the history, you know, me and Chuck share together as with some people, so just a great opportunity to be out there with them. Yeah, that's, I mean, it sounds a lot like Southwest Colorado where, you know, people joke that there's only one site per acre, but the site's an acre. I mean, it sounds like the same kind of thing. So I'm curious, like, if it's so dense and there's so much archaeology, so much, you know, it sounds like really incredible archaeology, where do you think it hasn't been recognized until
Uncovering Southwest Arizona's Archaeological Significance
00:24:54
Speaker
now?
00:24:54
Speaker
There's a really long answer to that question. Yeah, Aaron would be the one to answer that one, that's for sure. So in Southwest archeology, most people envision things like ancestral Pueblo ruins, Mesa Verde, Chaco Canyon. If you're in Southern Arizona, you're thinking Pueblo Grande, Casa Grande, big substantial sites, ball courts, platform mounds, as people like to call them. In the Western deserts,
00:25:24
Speaker
people didn't necessarily live like that or build that type of architecture. So the archaeological sites haven't received the amount of attention that they merit and so much so that there's a kind of a bizarre popular
00:25:41
Speaker
impression that it was inhabited by nomads or low population densities, which really there's no basis in the ethnic historic record for that. And as we're learning from the archaeological record, that's absolutely not true either. But this part of the world, Southwest Arizona,
00:26:02
Speaker
If you look at it in the context of how archaeology has been done in the Southwest, at least through the academic institutions, people don't run field schools outside of Yuma in the summer.
00:26:17
Speaker
If you're wanting to run a field school and train students and get publications, you're going to do your field school at higher elevations. Academic institutions have shied away from Southwest Arizona, Southeast California, just because it's unbearable in the summer.
00:26:34
Speaker
Then on top of that, this is a really remote place for academic institutions. The closest ones that actually have programs would be Tucson and San Diego and Phoenix, ASU. It's actually pretty remote. People just can't go out on the weekend really and do a little bit of fieldwork or run a field class.
00:26:56
Speaker
So it's not received the amount of attention through the ivory tower system in that way. But then from a cultural resource perspective too, this is undeveloped territory still. And that's one of the reasons we're heavily invested into it because we want to make sure that this cultural landscape is preserved because the development is coming. And
00:27:18
Speaker
So without development, most archaeology doesn't get done today. So the research that has been done in this area, to any significant extent, has been around the Salton Sea, Lake Koya, with residential development there. And then south of the Gila River on the bombing ranges, they've done a lot of work. But actually in the Great Band, it's still a rural
00:27:43
Speaker
a whole rural landscape. And what types of particular developments are you anticipating might come into the area, just basically like sprawl from Phoenix or what are you guys envisioning? It's sprawl and what sprawl brings with it. I mean, anyone can look at the West Valley today and compare to the way it looked 10 years ago and just envision the continued expansion, the West Valley of Phoenix, that is.
00:28:12
Speaker
So, it's eating up the rural west. It's eating up cultural landscapes, ranching landscapes, farming landscapes. Eventually, they're just going to come through and destroy all of that.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah, especially because people put cities a lot of times where people put cities in the past, right? Like good landscapes are good landscapes. Although I think there was an interesting point that you guys brought up in the magazine that for the area that you're looking at, for example,
00:28:44
Speaker
the landscape has been artificially changed quite a bit since what it would have looked like historically, but especially pre-historically. Do you want to mention that real quick? The Gila River was effectively killed in the early part of the 20th century. It hasn't flowed in any regularity since about 1920, approximately.
00:29:07
Speaker
at least below Phoenix. The riparian habitat does look anything like what it did, say, 100 years ago. That aspect of that landscape is dramatically different, but the cultural element to that, the deep history is
00:29:28
Speaker
is very much the way it was in the past. Okay, so we are already at our second break, but when we come back, I especially want to talk more again about bringing the work back to the tribes and what the reactions have been like there.
00:29:49
Speaker
protection for the area and what you guys are advocating for on that front. So we will be right back to talk about all of that here in a moment.
00:30:00
Speaker
Hello, it's Jim Eagle. Please join us for the Bay Area American Indian Two-Spirit Society's 11th annual Two-Spirit Pow Wow in person or online this year at the San Francisco Fort Mason Center on Saturday, February 12th, 2022. Gore Dance at noon and Grand Entry begins at 1 p.m. There will be over 60 vendors selling all types of indigenous products and crafts. Pow Wow dances from all over the U.S. will be competing in contests all day long. We'll also be having several delicious fried bread taco vendors. For more information, go to Bates.org. That's B-A-A-I-T-S.org. COVID protocols will be in effect. See you there.
00:30:33
Speaker
All right, so we're back from our second and final break.
Community Involvement in Archaeological Projects
00:30:38
Speaker
And what I was hoping to ask you guys about was, so obviously, Chuck and Zion, you guys are very involved in this project, but have other people from Quetzal also been involved in this project?
00:30:53
Speaker
We reached out to Quetzon early in our conservation efforts and at that time we were corresponding predominantly with the Cultural Committee. The Quetzon Cultural Committee is a volunteer organization that interfaces with the tribal council there and is really at the forefront of
00:31:12
Speaker
historic preservation for tribal interests in the community. And so it was really through working with Dromanford Scott, who's the acting chair, and Lori Kachora, who was on the committee early on, and he's a well-respected elder in the community that we've really been able to engage with the Quetzong community. And it was for the Elgreet project, we approached
00:31:33
Speaker
Mr. Manfred Scott with the idea of seeing if he can't find folks within the community who would be interested in working on the project. And so that's how pretty much everybody that's worked on the project in the field has been involved. And we have Chuck and Charles and Zion with us today, but we've had a number of other community members involved in the project over the years as well. So it's been good and we hope to have more
00:32:03
Speaker
as we move forward. Yeah, I'm definitely thankful for the cultural committee. That's all like Erin had said. I learned about the project and really with just my aunt who had given me the opportunity and said, hey, you might like this. So really thankful for them.
00:32:18
Speaker
When your aunt was on the committee, is that right, Charles? Oh, yeah. My aunt Joerlyn, my aunt Joerlyn Swift-Arrow. Yes, she was. I think she is, still is. Maybe not so much now, but I do believe. Yeah. I just wanted to say it was only through the committee as well that I learned about, you know, the project and internship. And I was serving briefly on the committee just for a couple of months, a few months myself, but they were gracious enough to let me, you know, intern with archaeology Southwest and the internship.
00:32:43
Speaker
kind of turned into employment after a while because we've been on now for a year and a half and the project's been going really good and we'll be getting a lot of good data from it. But it wasn't until the committee, you know, that we were really given the opportunity and connected through archaeology Southwest. So just thankful for them. It's not just the hell group project either. They're pretty much involved in everything around the area, I'm sure. My impression is they cover all of the ancestral lands of Quetzon. So
00:33:11
Speaker
They're up at Aviqua May and Pilot Knob at South Mountain. Yeah, they have to correspond to a lot of upcoming projects and surveying projects and things like that that come their way. You know, there's a lot that they have to sift through and correspond to. And it's just, you know, it's all volunteer work that they volunteer for the Culture Committee. But, you know, we're just real grateful for them that they do the work that they do.
00:33:37
Speaker
When I speak to you on these topics, I speak only for myself, you know, as a member of the Kuchan tribe. I don't speak for, you know, any other tribal affiliations. I'm just, you know, speaking as a person who's been on the project now for a year and a half and sharing my experience, sharing the podcast with you guys. Speaking for myself and not a tribal member, I mean, the cultural community is doing a lot of good things and they are working towards preservation stuff, but it always feels like we can be doing more
00:34:07
Speaker
Yeah. So I also want to touch on something that you guys were just talking about there about, you know, the opportunity to become an intern and what that's been like. What do you think that if other, you know, CRM firms or land management agencies or, you know, other people are interested in working with the tribes and having tribal interns, what would be some like recommendations you would have for them? Like in terms of recruiting, like you,
00:34:35
Speaker
Obviously, in this case, they went through the Culture Committee, or in terms of what makes for a good internship, what recommendations would you have? From my experience, having a positive working relationship with the cultural representatives from each tribe is important. That's really the segue into the community. In this particular instance, I really wanted to work with tribal members.
00:35:03
Speaker
Working in archaeology, I don't see a lot of tribal archaeologists or tribal people working in archaeology. And that's a problem for me. And so I wanted to provide an opportunity for people that didn't have necessarily a background or a training. Because in my opinion, doing basic field archaeology
00:35:27
Speaker
doesn't require a college degree. It requires obviously some physical ability to do it, but then it requires the interest and the will to do it. Archaeology is an institution, and with that are institutional procedures, and there's a significant hurdle for people that want to get interested in archaeology if they don't go to college.
00:35:51
Speaker
And that college degree as a prerequisite for doing field archaeology, if we want to make archaeology more diverse, I think we need to reconsider the sort of prerequisites for getting into the field. We would need to get with our youth amongst our tribes and trying to get that interest, like with the job that me and Zion are working on. You know, we're kind of representing our tribe a little bit, but really it's just trying to get
00:36:21
Speaker
the youngsters out there, the young people, the interest, because there's not a whole lot of interest. Like Erin was saying, there's not a whole lot of native surveyors or archeologists or field technicians. I didn't know what the job was. I really don't expect a whole lot of interest in a younger generation. Right. Like Erin was saying, it takes a special kind of individual to want to do the kind of work that we're involved in right now and given the opportunity to be because
00:36:51
Speaker
what it takes to get the data that in the volumes that we're collecting them in it takes you know staying out there for four days out of the week and being home for three days and not being in a bed you know that means you know for the four days and then coming back home and then having you know limited showers and limited time with your family you know you really got to have a passion for the work that you're you're doing and you know
00:37:13
Speaker
We're given an opportunity and, you know, thankfully, you know, I think we're representing our tribe in a little, a little bit, you know, doing that kind of work, you know, and taking that perseverance and integrity and have the tenacity to do it and stay out there for the time and, you know, do what's required of us. Yeah. Cause a lot of what we're doing now is like, it's not easy work. And you try to approach a younger person and try to get them to do that kind of job. It's not going to be easy. There's nothing glorious about it.
00:37:43
Speaker
like no showers, you know, we're in the field, it's hot. It's not easy to do, but with the articles that have been coming out and the work that we have been doing and the notoriety, I think we're gaining like a little bit of an interest for young people to come out and see what it's all about to reconnect with their culture and just to be out there, just to see what it's like.
00:38:09
Speaker
One of the things that I really wanted to get out of this is to learn about the people I work with and in this context, the members of the descendant communities.
Reflections on Archaeological Work
00:38:20
Speaker
And so I think for other people that work in this profession that want to engage descendant communities, having a willingness to listen to them and having a willingness to learn from them is part of the formula for it to be successful. Absolutely.
00:38:35
Speaker
So, okay, you were all talking about kind of the unglamorous part of archaeology, no showers, you're camping. What makes it worth it? Right? Big questions. I would say the small victories, they add up.
00:38:54
Speaker
And the long-term vision, it's about setting goals and reaching them. And then you set the next goal. What really makes it worth it not showering and being out there and just really roughing it is waking up at six in the morning just to get ready and walking out to a site and being shown the site and saying, okay, we're going to cover this much ground today.
00:39:18
Speaker
Actually, at the end of the day, covering that much ground and looking back at the work we've done, like not just recording, uh, petroglyphs or documenting, you know, it's just looking back and saying, whoa, we really did just hike that whole hill and did all the petroglyphs on the cliff side. Like it's like a good amount of area, but it's just putting it into perspective. Like every day, like, whoa, we did that. Like that was our contribution for the day. This is what we did.
00:39:48
Speaker
And then by the end of the week, it's like, whoa, we finished like this side or, you know, just recently it was saying a cliff face. We were, I personally didn't think we were going to get it done in four days, but we got it done in four days. And leaving that site was just, it was kind of an experience just to think about it. Just to say like, I hiked that and I helped document all that. But, you know, nobody's ever really going to see it because it's so remote for the most part, but
00:40:18
Speaker
I feel better about myself knowing that I contributed that much towards the project. For myself, I would say what really makes it worth it to be out there is, like Aaron said, small victories when we get done with the site. And like Chuck said, to know that it's logged and that it's done. And we have a modern, you know, perception of what's out there. And, you know, I get to say, you know, relay that message on to my people. And, you know, if I didn't do it myself, somebody else would have done it. Maybe a non-indigenous person
00:40:47
Speaker
who would have just been collecting data. But me being out there, I get to be connected with the land and be connected with the history that my people carry. And I get to say, these things were out there and we don't get it just from a book or get it from a database that might eventually be answered for years to come if these things do start disappearing. But what really makes it worth it is
00:41:11
Speaker
every site we log, you know, after it gets done, like Chuck said, just now, you know, fills your heart a little bit knowing that it's logged and that it's done and that there's a new outlook on what's there. Because like I said, from the prior, it's a lot of times just a circle on a map or, you know, GPS coordinates on where artifacts are and we get to go out there and freshen up those data. I think at the end of the day, what makes this kind of work worth it for me is
00:41:41
Speaker
It's the relationships and it's the building those relationships and working towards a common goal and seeing results. And the results don't necessarily come as fast as we want. They may not look exactly like what we want, but we make progress every day that we get up and sweat and come back and lay down and it's about growing.
00:42:06
Speaker
And basically being, being more than ourselves. Cause the job is really like, it just seems like we're living out there like bums for a while during the week. And it's not glorious. It's not, it's not anything pretty, but at the end of the day, we're, we're actually making big steps or preservation of the area and stuff. And you definitely don't see that when you're out there documenting.
00:42:31
Speaker
You definitely don't see that or feel like that when you're doing data entry. It's just, nah, it's like the articles that are written and stuff about us is just like, it could, it brings it all in this perspective. So that daily work doesn't feel like daily work. And so you see the bigger picture and that's what we're just contributing to. So every day just grinding it out, making sure we get it done. And then when we get it done, it just takes a while. It takes months, maybe.
00:43:02
Speaker
Takes years, actually, to have it all just condensed together and then you can see why you're out there every day. Can we say how many petroglyphs we found so far or do you want to wait on that? We can give some numbers if that's an interest. I think you'd give a little perspective on what's been done, you know?
00:43:23
Speaker
Yeah, we estimated when we started this conservation project that there might be about 100,000 petroglyphs in the Great Bend area. At the time, I thought, maybe that's a little high, but based on the limited information available at the time, it seemed possible. After working on LGRP, I'm very confident that number is actually true, if not an underrepresentation. So amongst us on our project, we've
00:43:51
Speaker
documented about 35,000 petroglyphs in just a certain section of the grape into the Gila, not even a 20% of the grape into the Gila we've been working in. So projecting outward, it's definitely one of the highest concentrations of petroglyphs in the Southwest is this grape into the Gila region.
00:44:14
Speaker
Right. And it also has geoglyphs from what I understand, correct? That's correct. You can call them geoglyphs, ground figures, gravel pictographs. They have a lot of different names depending on who's speaking. But yes, definitely there's a plethora of those in the area. They're very enigmatic. I'm still trying to wrap my head around them as I believe a lot of people are. And I'd be curious to hear what Zion and Chuck think about those things. Honestly, I don't
00:44:43
Speaker
I don't have any perspective on it. It's just they're there. As much as I try to interpret from what I see, it's just, what do I know? I wasn't there. I can relate it to myself or however at that moment, but the person who or people who made that, what were they thinking? I wouldn't have any clue. I'm entirely convinced that they're expressions of indigenous spirituality on the land.
00:45:12
Speaker
Right. Okay. I can't necessarily speak about that myself. I would say, you know, as an indigenous person, seeing these geoglyphs on top of these mesa ridges typically are where they're at, you know, circles of them, just, you know, lines of them, abonitas, you know, I think Aaron and I, he's talked to me about it and trying to come with the correlation between, you know, where these abonitas are actually facing. And we've both, I think, kind of come to an agreement that they
00:45:42
Speaker
point towards a spiritual mountain that it's really important to us as indigenous people, as Quaton people. It's a mountain that I referenced in the past of Equal May, Newbury Mountain, all of these avenues that we are coming across on, you know, the El Grie Mesa Ridges are pointing towards the northwest. So it's north and west. So that's, you know, the area from where we're working and that's directly towards that area and these rock rings that are out there.
00:46:11
Speaker
you know, undoubtedly, like, I think Aaron was, you know, saying that, you know, they're used for spiritual aspects, you know, of culture, because somebody took the time to pick up a 20-pound rock and set it in a formation for what? Not for, I think, the fun of it, because, you know, you have to come up to the top of these Mesa ridges, get to the top and carry these rocks and put them in the formations. It's hot, you know, tedious work, and they use them because
00:46:39
Speaker
You know, we've come to find that they've sat there for hundreds, if not thousands of years because of, you know, the caliche not being on top of the rocks, it worn away. You know, these are geoglyphs that haven't been touched for a lot of years. So we do our best to log them, not touch them or, you know, disturb them in any manner. But I think they're, you know, used for spiritual aspects and culture. There's definitely a spiritual significance towards them. They wouldn't, they wouldn't have done it unless they had something to say. That's definitely for sure.
00:47:09
Speaker
That's all I could add to that. So with that spiritual significance in mind, what would you want people to know about
Visitor Impact and Preservation Concerns
00:47:24
Speaker
the area? Like what would you want them to be advocating for the area in a certain way? Would you want them to be acting in a certain way when they're there? Would you, you know, what would you hope from people listening to this episode?
00:47:37
Speaker
I don't know if the area we're working in, I would want people to actually go visit. It's not that I'm trying to say that our culture and our history shouldn't be recorded or brought out to the world, but with that bringing in, I don't know, God just opens the area to open to visitors and, you know, possible destruction of cliffs of these rocks. And it may not be through.
00:48:08
Speaker
any fault of the person visiting because there isn't anybody out there to necessarily tell them what's the right way to go about visiting these sites because there is an area called painted rocks. It's a nice little cluster of rocks in the middle of nowhere with a lot of petroglyphs on it and through the
00:48:30
Speaker
Visiting of the area, a lot of the petroglyphs along the base of that little mound, the pile of rocks is eroded, not through necessarily anybody's specific intention, but just the information being out there and people just being naturally curious to go and visit these sites. They destroy them. If we do work towards something like
00:48:58
Speaker
like a national monument or something like that to have areas protected that we are working in. I wouldn't necessarily want people to know that area. I had seen a podcast or listened to a podcast where a man said, if it's a part of the history of the area he's living in, then why can't he have the opportunity or kind of like the right to go and visit these areas? Well, it's not particularly that person's culture, but it doesn't mean he has the right to go and
00:49:28
Speaker
city in these areas or, you know, draw attention to these areas because it's just going to destroy all this stuff, all the stuff that we're documenting. I would just say I think without knowing cultural history, you can't have a real appreciation for the area in itself. So I think anybody visiting it who's not indigenous or doesn't know that would want to keep in mind the word preservation, you know, if I'm not or if I'm doing something that's not preserving the site, you know, am I wrong or am I doing something wrong?
00:49:56
Speaker
everything we do we're doing, you know, in the hopes of preservation, we're going out to these sites and leaving them and not, I'm not visiting them after I leave them. You know, if the time comes where I did want to visit them, you know, I feel like I would have, you know, somewhat of a right to because I know my cultural history, it would have a certain respect for this that a non-Indigenous person might not have or a non-Native person, but I would just want them to have a certain respect
00:50:21
Speaker
in mind and just, like I said, keep that word in mind preservation, because that's what we're, the end goal is for us out there. I would like people to come away with a deeper respect and awareness of the significance of the landscape in all of its dimensions out there. In archaeology, we often can differentiate between the archaeological past and what
00:50:45
Speaker
academics call history and that something changed at 1450 or 1550 or put a date on it. And that the people in 1550 weren't the people there in 1450. I can't speak for other regions in the Southwest, but
00:51:01
Speaker
In this particular region, there's a lot of continuity. These aren't archaeological sites that no one has a connection to. There's a very vibrant legacy amongst many tribes connected to this land. You can see it in the archaeology, you can see it in the modern art forms that they carry on, their clothing, their language. Just because there aren't
00:51:25
Speaker
reservations nearby doesn't mean that people aren't connected to this place in other ways and in ways that we may not see or really appreciate until we actually get to meet with people and talk with people and really understand the bigger picture. Yeah, absolutely.
00:51:43
Speaker
Any final thoughts to close this out? So for anyone listening, definitely check out the Archaeology Southwest Magazine issue on this particular topic. It's Eeyore Krasnav, volume 34, number one. Again, it'll be in the show notes. So definitely check that out for more information. Any final closeout thoughts from any of the three of you, anything that you are burning to share with the audience? Thank you for listening. I'm thankful for the opportunity to be here.
00:52:11
Speaker
I'm thankful to my tribe. I'm thankful to Archaeology Southwest for giving us this opportunity to be on the project and, you know, experience the site of culture that, you know, I didn't get experience before. I found it really good.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, right. Well, thank all of you for coming on again. Really appreciate it. And can't wait to share this episode. And now again, now that we've done it, re relook through the magazine again and see you with new eyes. So thank you. Thanks for listening to the heritage voices podcast.
00:52:50
Speaker
You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com forward slash heritage voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google music store. Also, if you like the show, please share with your friends or write us a review. If you have any questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me.
00:53:16
Speaker
at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org, or you can find me on Facebook through livingheritageanthropology or on Twitter at livingheritagea. As always, thank you to Lyle Blanquot and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our
00:53:45
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV Traveling America, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.
00:54:08
Speaker
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