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Boulder Ethnographic-Education Project: Indigenous Perspectives on Ethnography - Ep 84
675 Plays8 months ago
On today’s episode, Jessica chats with the crew she has been working with on the Boulder Ethnographic-Education Project. The crew includes the amazing Erica Walters (Ethnographer, Living Heritage Anthropology), Reshawn Edison (Ethnographer, Living Heritage Anthropology; Diné; CESC Program Coordinator for Harvest of All First Nations), and Joseph Gazing Wolf (Executive Director, Heritage Lands Collective (formerly Living Heritage Research Council); Lakota, Nubian, and Amazigh). The crew talks about their favorite parts of the project, learning moments, challenges, and advice for others wanting to do ethnographic research or other work with Indigenous communities.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/heritagevoices/84
Links
- Heritage Voices on the APN
- Boulder Tribal Consultation website
- Boulder’s Indigenous Peoples’ Day Resolution
- Fort Chambers/Poor Farm Management Plan website
- Boulder Website on The Peoples’ Crossing Renaming Process
- National Association Of Tribal Historic Preservation Officers’ Page on THPO Funding
- Find your Congressperson (to ask them to increase funding to the Historic Preservation Fund!)
- Harvest of All First Nations
- Living Heritage Anthropology Website
- Heritage Lands Collective (Formerly Living Heritage Research Council) Website
- The Association of Indigenous Anthropologists, A Section of the American Anthropological Association (AAA: connect with Indigenous anthropologists for potential guidance):
- Tuck and Yang 2012 Decolonization is not a metaphor
Contact
ArchPodNet
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- Tee Public Store
Affiliates
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Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode 84
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Welcome to Heritage Voices, Episode 84. I'm Jessica Aquinto, and I'm your host. And today we're talking about the Boulder Ethnographic Education Project, Indigenous Perspectives on Ethnography.
Acknowledging Indigenous Lands and Guests
00:00:21
Speaker
Before we begin, I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the Nooch or Ute People's Treaty Lands, the Dena'ita, and the ancestral Puebloan homeland.
00:00:31
Speaker
Today we have Erika Walters, Joseph Gazing Wolf, and Rashawn Edison on the show. And I am super excited to have this group on the podcast because this is a group that I work with. So very excited. The four of us worked together this fall on a project, the Boulder Ethnographic Education Project.
00:00:53
Speaker
And so I just had to have them on to talk about this and the other work that they're doing that's similar to this, but we'll focus on this one since this is what we worked on together. But just again, so excited to have you guys. Welcome to the show. Thank you.
00:01:10
Speaker
Thanks, glad to be here. Super excited. Yeah, OK. So how about you all introduce yourselves? Erica, do you want to start? Yeah, sure. I'm Erica Walters. I'm an anthropologist and ethnographer. I've been working at Living Heritage for almost a year now. I live in the Philadelphia area. I'm also on the board for the American Anthropological Association's Group on Tourism and a member of the Association of Indigenous Anthropologists.
00:01:38
Speaker
And just to clarify, that was living heritage anthropology, because here in a second, we will have a different living heritage. So Joseph, do you want to introduce yourself? Yes. I'm Hamidakepe, Chantewashte, and Apichu's Uplow. My name is Joseph Gazingwulf. I'm Gopala Kota, and I'm, as again, Nupian on my mother's side. I am the executive director of Living Heritage Research Council, where we do wonderful work with tribal nations to
00:02:04
Speaker
help document their stories and narratives about ancestral lands and their connection to those lands. Hello, everyone.
Background of the Boulder Ethnographic Education Project
00:02:10
Speaker
Just a note that since the recording of this podcast, the Living Heritage Research Council has changed its name to the Heritage Lands Collective.
00:02:18
Speaker
Perfect. And Roshan, how about you? Hello, everybody. My name is Roshan Edison. I'm an ethnographer alongside Erica, going strong almost a year at Living Heritage Anthropology. Alongside that, I'm the director for Harvest of All First Nations Cultural Education and Environmental Justice Program.
00:02:41
Speaker
I currently live in the Colorado area, Denver, but my home is in Steamboat, Arizona on Danayton Navajo land. And I'm super excited to be here with you all. Yeah. Okay. So I guess I'll start by giving a super brief intro to our work at Boulder. I'm not going to go too in depth because we're working on lots of things with the city of Boulder, but just enough so that there's a little bit of context for this project.
00:03:09
Speaker
So this this project well the my involvement with the city of Boulder started back in 2018
00:03:17
Speaker
And that came out of their indigenous people's day resolution. That part of it instructed them to rename a property that was known at the time as Settlers Park. And so the city wanted to do tribal consultation work to come up with a new name for that park, among other things, and just rebuild relationships because the city of Boulder actually had very early relationships with tribes in the 90s and 2000s.
00:03:46
Speaker
So just basically to rebuild after there had been changes of staff and everything that led to a gap in consultation. So we did that work. So that involved reaching out to 16 tribes. And we've been working since 2019 with these tribes.
00:04:05
Speaker
And one of the major parts of that, again, was the renaming of settlers park to the people's crossing. And one of the things that came out of those conversations was an interest from the tribal nations that we work with on education and doing more to educate the public about their connections to that area. And when we started working on education, it was recommended that there be a ethnographic study or a cultural landscape study completed in order
00:04:34
Speaker
their tribes to feel like they knew what they wanted to say, got to spend some time on the landscape before creating educational materials for the public. So this is the project that we're going to be talking about today. This is the project that the four of us went into the field together on last fall. And we've also, Rashawn and I have gone on an additional field visit for this project as well. So Rashawn can speak to two of those and
00:05:02
Speaker
Erica and Joseph can speak to one visit with two separate groups of tribes that happened this fall. So yeah, so excited. Did I miss anything? Anyone want to add anything to that background real quick? That sounds great to me. Yeah, I think you got it all. Yes. Good job. Whoo. I mean, there's more happening. There's lots. The city of Boulder is doing lots of good things. Yeah. And I also just wanted to acknowledge the work of
00:05:29
Speaker
Ernest House Jr. and Nicole Miura of the Keystone Policy Center who have been helping out with all of these different Boulder projects, Ernest House especially. And he was also a guest on Heritage Voices, episode 69. So if you want to go back and listen more about the work that Ernest House Jr. and Keystone Policy Center are doing, it's a really great episode.
00:05:55
Speaker
Personally, yeah, I could listen to Ernest talk forever. So definitely highly recommend. And thank you to Ernest and Nicole for all of your work and partnership on all of these Boulder efforts.
Logistical Challenges and Rewards
00:06:05
Speaker
So I guess maybe to get us started, and this isn't one of the questions I had on my list. So sorry guys. Was there anything that you like went into this project? Like, did you have any thoughts on what it was going to be? Was it the same or different as what you thought maybe? Yeah. Any, any, any thoughts there? Just throwing this out there.
00:06:25
Speaker
I think what I would say
00:06:29
Speaker
It wasn't something that I expected to be different, but it was something that was different than other ethnography that I've done or other ethnographic work that I've done. And that is just the logistics of this type of project because we're working with indigenous nations and communities who have been removed from Boulder. So we're returning to Boulder with those
00:06:57
Speaker
representatives with tribal representatives from those communities. So we have to think about travel arrangements and meals and what hotel should we stay at and where are the bathrooms? What's the weather doing? All of those things because generally, typically in ethnography, you go to the people who are contributing to your research. You're not necessarily traveling with them. So it's kind of an added layer of consideration. So that made this work more unique for me and my experience.
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I think I think that's an excellent point to Erica, because I think anytime you do research with indigenous communities in particular, there's the option to either go to their context, or to bring them into a context, essentially a context where they were forcibly removed, right? So I think one of the wonderful things about this project is the fact that we're bringing, we're bringing back folks who have a connection to these lands,
00:07:53
Speaker
you know, in every way possible, spiritually, historically, linguistically, to these contexts, and they, you know, bringing them back and having them reconnect to the land in such a deep way where they're asked to sit there and, you know,
00:08:07
Speaker
in the context and tell us about their experiences, their memories, their narratives, their stories. That, to me, was just a powerful experience. Another thing that really stood out for me, having worked with other agencies, is how wonderfully prepared Boulder was in comparison to other contexts in which we've collaborated.
00:08:30
Speaker
with federal and state agencies. So really to me, it highlights Boulder's preparation and working with tribal communities and their desire to do so and their competence in doing so. They really stood out to me among all the other agencies that I've worked with. So it was a very pleasant experience in that regard. Could you talk about like what showed you that they were prepared or like what, you know, I'm just thinking like if I'm working for another agency, like a state or federal,
00:08:57
Speaker
Like, what does it take to be prepared? You know what I mean? Like, what would they need to do in order to be prepared? Well, I mean, you know, I don't know if others would agree with me, but it takes a lot of personal individual work in order for a group to be prepared. So what stands out about Boulder is that the individuals working there have clearly put in the time and effort to learn about the historical context of tribal removal and just the
00:09:27
Speaker
grotesque history of settler colonialism here in the United States. They bothered to put in that time and effort to learn these things, and they bothered to put in the time and effort to hear tribal voices. And so it was quite clear that they had
00:09:42
Speaker
put themselves through the personal training required to do that, whether it be through the readings of books written by indigenous people or just the experience of working with indigenous people for many years. It was quite clear that they were there to hear the voices of the tribal reps that were there.
Learning from Tribal Elders
00:10:01
Speaker
When I talked to them one-on-one,
00:10:03
Speaker
All the individuals from Boulder City had a much higher level of consciousness as to why they're doing this work as compared to other contexts where when I talk to the individuals from other contexts, I'm not going to mention specific agencies, but when I talk to persons from other contexts, the response to why are you doing this work or why are you here when I ask them that is typically, well, my boss told me to be here or it's a requirement.
00:10:31
Speaker
Our new head, our new representative, our new boss is saying that we should come here and meet with tribes or, you know, this is just something that we do or something like that. There's no personal work that was done by the individual to raise consciousness as to why this work is important. And so they're not there purposefully, whereas Boulder clearly stood out in that regard. All right. Rashawn, sorry, I veered away from you for a second there, but if you had something you wanted to share.
00:10:59
Speaker
And I think this is great because leading into this consultation work that we all worked on together with the city of Boulder, it was very interesting to me in the fact that, like Joseph had mentioned before, that they were so open and so willing to accept criticism. And so when we talk about criticism, especially with the relationships with tribal nations, there is a very fine line between injustice and then perpetuating this idea and narrative
00:11:27
Speaker
of settler colonialism, right? And so when I think about anthropology and ethnography, the story has very much has been told from a narrative that has been projected in a way that ethnographies, and especially from a Western point of view, have their own ideas of what tribal nations are and how they should be and how they're governed themselves, right? They completely ignore the fact of sovereignty. And so within this work,
00:11:57
Speaker
and within the relationship that these tribal nations had with the city of Boulder has been very much different from what history has showed us in the past. And then so being a young indigenous ethnographer, anthropologist, it's just been opening up my lens to those certain experiences that we have not seen in the past, right? And so I've been a part of consultations where whatever is being said or whatever has been done and whatever, let's say institution,
00:12:25
Speaker
with tribal nations, that relationship isn't really there. And that relationship oftentimes is very much conflicting. And so within the work that we have done has been the city of Boulder accepts criticism, right? And they have been very much willing to work with the suggestions that we have done within living heritage and topology and within tribal consultation, right? And anyone who knows anything about working with tribes in this kind of consulting work, things get pretty heated, right?
00:12:55
Speaker
and being able to navigate those spaces in a safe environment has been very much super rewarding within my spectrum of the work that we've done with the city of Boulder. Yeah, and I should mention too that Erika and Rashawn were also involved in the tribal consultation work and some of our other work with the city. So
00:13:16
Speaker
Rashawn and Erica can also speak to the tribal consultation meetings themselves as well with all of the tribes altogether. I didn't mention that at the beginning. All right. And it always flies so fast, but we're already at our first break point. So we will be right back and continue this discussion here in a second.
00:13:37
Speaker
Okay. So we're back and now we're really ready to dive into this. So I guess let's start with the fun one. What was all of y'all's favorite part of this project? Yeah. I think for me, the thing that really stood out is, you know, when we grow up, those of us who grow up on the reservation or even for folks that grow up in urban environments, you know, we don't have a lot of access to our own elders. And so the
00:14:05
Speaker
because they get 10,000 asks every week. And so they're often involved in tribal council affairs, politics, education, et cetera. And so with a lot of good work being done in terms of the revitalization of our cultures, our elders are really being pulled every which way. And so, I mean, I remember my own, the only fight I ever got into with my grandfather, the only argument I ever had with him was,
00:14:32
Speaker
Where I told them like hey, man, I'm hardly seeing you anymore like we were very close and yet you're hardly in my life anymore because you're on tribal council you're You know working on Buffalo restoration. You're doing all this wonderful work But you know, don't forget that I'm here and I need you right and and so it's really a Wonderful privilege to be able to get to spend time with tribal elders from from any context in any community It's it's a real privilege. And so I want to acknowledge that
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. I would like echo that same thing and saying it feels like such an enormous privilege to be present on these visits or returns rather of people to a place they've been removed from. And then the fact that we not only get to be there and be with these elders, but that we
00:15:24
Speaker
also get to do ethnography in those moments is incredible. And the tribal representatives share so much and they're so generous with their knowledge in a setting where they have every right to be almost bitter,
Personal Stories and Relationship Building
00:15:40
Speaker
right? Like a couple hundred years ago, Boulder was trying to eliminate indigenous people. And now Boulder is going back to these same communities and asking them for help. And it seems like that could be a potentially unpleasant
00:15:53
Speaker
situation, but it's not. And that's because of the tribal representatives that are working on this project. They're so gracious. They're so committed to educating people. They're willing to do all of this work and it's not easy, but I'm so endlessly impressed and so grateful for all of the tribal representatives and elders involved.
00:16:12
Speaker
I share the same exact feeling as my colleagues right here. Oh my gosh, just working with elders that come from tribal nations from far near the Boulder Denver area has been such a privilege to work with, especially growing up on the reservation right when I had my grandparents and
00:16:31
Speaker
their cousins and I had a lot of grandmas, right? And I had a lot of grandpas growing up. And now it seems like as I enter this field of anthropology and ethnography, a lot of these stories that we hear and that we are recording and we're helping keep that narrative alive that these tribal representatives want is such a privilege for me because
00:16:54
Speaker
A lot of times now within the current age, a lot of our elders are leaving really early and being indigenous leaders within the community, we need their voices more than ever, right? And so to be able to work alongside tribal representatives and the City of Boulder has been an amazing blessing and a privilege. And just because, well, also because I'm a resident of Colorado now and I've lived in Denver for about five years. And so
00:17:22
Speaker
understanding the history between settler colonialism and indigenous peoples is something that Native people have to face on a daily basis if they live in urban environments, especially within Colorado area or wherever we go, right? Because wherever we are, we are on stolen land, just to echo what my colleagues have said. And to know those histories and to grapple with it in an institutional setting, right, on the county level, on the city level is that much more rewarding for me.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, and just to give a little bit more context to some of what they're talking about, and I think one thing that Erika maybe was specifically referring to is that, but basically that a group of soldiers from Boulder, they trained in Boulder and then they went and participated in the Sand Creek Massacre down in Southwest Colorado against Cheyenne and Arapaho people.
00:18:18
Speaker
children all the way through elders, men and women. And so obviously that would be something that would be really easy to be very bitter and really hold against the city. And I will say that the city is doing quite a bit of work specifically on that topic. There's a property called the Four Chambers Poor Farm property that they're working with the tribes, specifically the Cheyenne and Arapaho
00:18:43
Speaker
who were the Sand Creek descendant tribes on what to do with that property where the soldiers did train before going down to Sand Creek. And so yeah, with that in mind, like all of you said, not even just coming and being generous, but my God, the laughter. I love it. It's always such a fun, good time in addition to
00:19:06
Speaker
the privilege and the responsibility that weighs heavy too on getting all of this right.
Cultural Insights and Kinship
00:19:13
Speaker
But I'd say my favorite part, and this is one that I've heard our colleague at the city give us an example of his most meaningful moment as well, where we were talking with one of the tribal representatives
00:19:28
Speaker
who brought their family with them, uh, on this visit. And, you know, them saying that when, when you all first reached out in 2018, we didn't know you, we didn't know what you wanted. We were very unsure, but you know, now, now your family. And that was, that was just, you know, you can't, can't surpass a moment like that. So that was, that was mine, I think.
00:19:54
Speaker
All right. What about, and all of you have worked on other ethnographic projects too. So if you want to bring in something you've seen just in Boulder or across different projects, but what, it would have been some, some learning moments in doing this kind of work for all of you. I think across, across all of the projects that we do, including the Boulder Ethnographic Education work is
00:20:22
Speaker
Again, it's just so incredible and inspiring to see just the Herculean amount of work that these tribal elders do for their people and for agencies and cities like the city of Boulder. A lot of our representatives are elders and they're engaging in projects like this. They're traveling while they're also running entire offices, juggling the responsibilities that would typically be handled by like three or more people. And it's really their commitment
00:20:50
Speaker
to their people and improving the cultural and spiritual and mental and physical well-being of their communities because this type of work can lead to really tangible outcomes in those areas. So just the work ethic alone of the tribal representatives is inspiring and motivates me to do more.
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah, and the fact that they're doing it at that age, right? I mean, I'm a fairly young man, generally speaking, and I get tired. And yet they're, you know, they're often driving far distances and still in such good spirit and humor. And yeah, like you mentioned, Jessica, that's like,
00:21:29
Speaker
One of my favorite things is the fact that anytime we're around elders, and especially if any aunties are there, we know there's going to be some really funny jokes that are going to be drawn. And Erica's point that their work ethic is just comparable.
00:21:50
Speaker
I enjoy being there. My favorite part is just being with them because I get to absorb so much of their spirit of honest work. Honest humanity really is what it comes down to. They wear their hearts on their sleeves. They're honest with their words, which is not something
00:22:09
Speaker
I'm sad sad to say sorry to say it's not something that's part of settler colonial culture in general and so it's such a refreshing thing to be in an environment where humans are acting like humans right and that's very uncomfortable for us isn't it because you know it doesn't matter that you know a lot of these elders are not my elders and they don't know me from Adam so so when they show up.
00:22:30
Speaker
I have to earn their respect and trust like everybody else. It puts me in an uncomfortable position just as much as anybody else because, again, there's a genuine human interaction taking place where they don't know me, they don't know what our organization is or what we've done in many regards, except for those who have worked with us for a long period of time.
00:22:53
Speaker
We have to earn their trust and we have to respect their boundaries and make sure that we're following very, very proper protocols when we're approaching them and doing this work. There's plenty of times where I trip over my own feet and if you're working with a specific elder or a specific tribe, they might have different protocols than the one that you were just with a few days ago. You're going to make mistakes and it's important
00:23:22
Speaker
to recognize those mistakes to say, hey, teach me how to do this properly. I care about you. I want you to be here. I want to keep doing this work. Teach me how to respect you the proper way within your context. For me, my experience has been learning to be human again. It's learning my own humanity, my own limitations, and recognizing those limitations when the opportunity presents itself.
00:23:50
Speaker
The conversations like these remind me of like subtle things or not subtle things, like things that were very much a part of my everyday life growing up with my grandparents that like trickle into the work that we're doing now. For example, it would be like, I always have this mentality wherever I go because of the teachings of my grandpa. He always used to tell me wherever native people are,
00:24:17
Speaker
you're going to have family. And wherever native people are, you're going to make community, right? And so I find this like very much a part of my life, wherever I go in any social gathering, whether that ceremony, powwows, council meetings, right? Wherever there's native people, there's going to be that kinship and that community factor.
00:24:37
Speaker
And because I grew up within the teachings of my grandparents and I was raised by my grandparents, meeting these tribal elders that do this incredible work within their communities and that are willing to travel out far distances to give a little bit of their perspective, their knowledge, right? It reminds me of these leaders that
00:24:56
Speaker
I grew up within my communities, right? These are the leaders within other tribal communities that I just came all together and won. And so in that viewpoint, I'm very much privileged, right? Because I can see my elders literally come to the forefront in the work that we're doing and that we have done with the city of Boulder.
00:25:16
Speaker
And I've heard it from multiple staff from the city of Boulder saying that this is an experience that they never have witnessed, right? And people who come from the reservation or like travel backgrounds, that's very much a part of their lives a lot of the times.
00:25:32
Speaker
and that's very much have been my case within this work, but that community, that kinship that extends beyond blood and because like these world views that all these indigenous people are coming together, they're very much similar but at the same time they have their very own unique niche and the way they view and see and
00:25:53
Speaker
experience the world, right? And we just get a glimpse of it, like just a very small glimpse within the work that we do here. And the fact that a lot of the tribal representatives that I have worked with in the past and continue to work on within the work that we do within Boulder, I've actually been called nephew, right, a couple times. And I've, I can actually say I have aunties and I have uncles that I've met
00:26:16
Speaker
through this work within tribal preservation offices and their TIPO officers and the community members that they have brought to the table. It's just been super amazing. So to add to what some of you guys are all saying, I've said this before on the podcast, I'll say it a million times, but if anyone wants to support the efforts of the TIPOs and these elders that are just way overstretched,
00:26:41
Speaker
please contact your congresspeople and let them know that you think that the Historic Preservation Fund needs additional funding for Tribal Historic Preservation Office. That would be huge because they are way
00:26:57
Speaker
underfunded, especially compared to the state historic preservation offices. A lot of the tribes have connections to much larger breaches of land than the states do. There's vastly more tribes than states and they receive much less funding than the states do.
00:27:15
Speaker
So if you want to really make a difference for heritage preservation, for cultural preservation for these elders specifically, but also for these projects where people are looking for input from tribes and the tip offices are just too overstaffed.
00:27:34
Speaker
in order to give that feedback, that would be really helpful for the agencies and would help move projects through faster and things like that. Again, reach out to your congresspeople and let them know that you'd like the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer portion of the Historic Preservation Fund increased.
Ethics and Respect in Research
00:27:51
Speaker
All right, off my soapbox.
00:27:53
Speaker
Write those letters. Write those letters. All right. We are going to go into our second break and then we will come back and finish talking about this project and what we've all learned. Okay. And we're back again. And so obviously we've talked about all the happy, shiny, good things about this project and other projects. What would have been some challenges?
00:28:23
Speaker
that have come up doing ethnographic work for this review? I think there are two, especially for scholars and students that are listening to this, I think there are two important things to raise here. One is the context in which this work is taking place. So we have to acknowledge the history that has taken place here, the historical context where we're working with communities that have had several attempts at erasure, right?
00:28:53
Speaker
cultural erasure, physical, linguistic, language, et cetera. I mean, in every way they've been removed from the land and removed from history. And there are many forces at work now trying to remove them from history books altogether. And so these folks are willing to come into a context that has historically been incredibly antithetical to their very existence.
00:29:16
Speaker
So, we have to recognize that. And so, like I said earlier, you know, we do our best to follow proper protocol, to welcome them in as relatives and as loved ones. And we make sure that we try to educate our federal, state and city partners to approach in a respectful manner, to recognize that historical context taking place. And so, I would urge any
00:29:42
Speaker
Scholars that are doing similar work or hope to do similar work to understand the context in which you're working and the extreme discomfort that these elders and tribal reps are putting themselves in in order to be there.
00:29:56
Speaker
And the other thing, to be more specific to anthropologists, I work broadly. I work with indigenous nations all over the world. And I was in Ecuador this summer, working with Kichwa and Mowrani people and learning the Kichwa and Mowrani language. And the elders that were teaching me Kichwa started talking about anthropologists, because the primary people that they've had contact with were scholars.
00:30:22
Speaker
been anthropologists. And I was curious, I asked, you know, what's the key to a word for anthropologist?
00:30:29
Speaker
And there isn't one. They said, they said Yuyana. And I said, wait a second. Yuyana is the word for liar. And they're like, they're like, yup, that's the word that we use for anthropologists. So, you know, this this history of imposing one's viewpoints on indigenous people, studying them like lab rats and then and then imposing, you know, a Western settler colonial cultural perspective on their world and viewpoint.
00:30:58
Speaker
is pervasive throughout anthropology and other areas of scholarship. You need to understand that if you're an anthropologist, especially if you're a settler colonial anthropologist, if you're non-Indigenous, you are the face of cultural genocide. You represent a field and a context
00:31:19
Speaker
that has tried historically to erase these people, their language, their history, and their culture. And so you need to come in with that consciousness and make sure that you're approaching these people, not just respectfully, but that you approach them with absolute understanding of what human dignity requires of you in that context and do on a scholarship, right? So these two points are really important for any anthropologist and especially students and future scholars to understand.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think Joseph brings out really excellent points around ethics and I think most, you know, all anthropologists are educated in academia, right? So they're learning how to do anthropology, usually unless you're at a really cool progressive school, usually from other non-native people. So if you're looking to do anthropology with indigenous groups,
00:32:10
Speaker
just like Joseph said, you really need to understand the context in which you're working. And you also need to reconsider things that you've been taught about ethics because, you know, I was always taught in school by non-native people, oh, you get the informed consent form and you're good to go. But that is not culturally relevant with indigenous groups. You have to think about the ethics of the people with whom you are working and like something like consent.
00:32:40
Speaker
is revocable and temporary and you need to be checking in and you need to have a collaborative process and you can't be extractionist and you have to think about the tangible ways in which you've been taught to do anthropology and decolonialize them, not to use such a buzzword, but really be mindful about how you do this work. And I think that it is hard
00:33:05
Speaker
for people to do this work ethically if you don't know the people that you're working with well or you're not exposed to cultural norms. And there's a lot of pre-work and conversations and life experience that I think you need to have in order to do this work in a way that is ethical and mindful and mutually benefits all of the parties involved. But you always want to make sure that
00:33:35
Speaker
your research contributors in this context would be the tribal representatives and the tribal nations and communities that they're benefiting from it the most and they're always your first priority is protecting them and prioritizing their wants and needs.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's an excellent point, Erika, that a lot of these Western standards of ethics just simply don't, are incredibly foreign to us in our context.
00:34:06
Speaker
If there's one way that I can relate an indigenous concept to a Western audience, I would say approach these people like they're your family. If you're comfortable
00:34:22
Speaker
comfortable with somebody speaking over your grandmother when she's speaking. Okay. There's something seriously wrong with you, but if you have healthy relationships with your family members, you wouldn't want somebody to smother their culture and their language and their voice for their own. You would want to check in with them regularly.
00:34:44
Speaker
to make sure that they're still comfortable with what's going on. Right. So that's that incredibly important point you made, Erica, of like informed consent is not a one time and you're done kind of thing. You check in regularly to see, are you still OK with what's happening here? Are you OK with sharing this? In what context are you OK sharing this, et cetera, et cetera. And another thing that it's important to highlight is if you're doing this to further your own career as a scholar, that's that's OK.
00:35:13
Speaker
Just let people know exactly how you're going to be using information and in what way and in what manner and how it's going to benefit you. You need to let them know this very clearly and engage in that dialogue regularly with the Indigenous folks that you're working with.
00:35:28
Speaker
I've seen it many times. We know this story over and over. People go in, they extract knowledge, nothing comes back to the community. They further their own academic careers and they go away and never relate to the community again. This cannot keep happening.
00:35:45
Speaker
So, what we're trying to stand for, both at Living Heritage Anthropology and at the Living Heritage Research Council, is we're trying to give a counterexample to that. We're trying to show what actual research that is honest, that is indigenous-led, looks like. And it's a good example to follow, and hopefully people listen to this and kind of take some important points out of it and incorporate it into their own approach.
00:36:13
Speaker
Any other challenges or things that you would want people to know? And I think one other point, if I may share, the point about consciousness is really important because
00:36:26
Speaker
A lot of people can read books and understand. In fact, I've talked to some of my white colleagues at the university, and some of them are familiar with all kinds of the latest research and thinking on settler colonialism, and they're very well versed in this and that other author and this and that theory. And yet, when you observe them in context working with tribal nations,
00:36:55
Speaker
They commit every settler colonial, typical settler colonial approach. They commit all these mistakes of speaking over and smothering the voices of natives, the natives they're working with. So the really important point to drive home here is you have to be mindful in the moment that you're practicing what you understand intellectually because I've been in contexts where
00:37:21
Speaker
I'll just give a quick example. I'm sorry I'm taking so much time, but we were in a meeting that was all about how to recognize the communities that we're working with as academics. We had this big meeting at the university where we broke out into individual sessions talking about how to recognize the local communities that we're working with.
00:37:42
Speaker
in our research and in our research presentations. And one of my colleagues from the lab I was working with at the time was leading one of these discussions. She was the leader of one of these discussions. We go from that meeting to a lab meeting where the same person who was leading that discussion is talking about her work with indigenous nations in Senegal.
00:38:02
Speaker
And she doesn't mention at all any of the local community members or local women that, Senegalese, Woolof women that she worked with there that made her research possible. She doesn't mention them by name. And so I point out, because the whole presentation was her giving her presentation to practice with the lab before she gives it publicly. And so it was our job as her co-lab members to give her criticism. And so
00:38:28
Speaker
I speak up and I say, hey, you didn't mention the local communities that you're working with at all. You didn't acknowledge them at all in your presentation. And she was extremely offended that I gave her that feedback. Literally two minutes prior to that, she was leading a talk about how to get, you know, so
00:38:48
Speaker
There's all kinds of, it's really important that you're mindful in the context, that you're mindful in the moment of what you're doing, because otherwise it doesn't matter what knowledge you hold in your head. If you're not practicing in context, it's worthless. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think we've all seen that moment of white fragility happen. Yeah, I think that's something that's really unique to applied anthropology and what's really special about doing
00:39:15
Speaker
field work is that you actually have to embody anthropology and embody the ethics of the people that you're working with in a way that's different from anthropologists who are professors or who just work in academia or who only do
00:39:32
Speaker
you know, research in their offices, we call them armchair anthropologists often.
Unlearning Biases and Embracing Humility
00:39:38
Speaker
So that's one of the awesome benefits of doing applied work and actually being in the field is that you get to you get to embody the practice in a way that you actually get to practice what you preach a little bit.
00:39:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I'd echo what some of you are already saying in that in order to be an anthropologist, you have to go to these academic programs that train you in one way. And then in order to be successful as an anthropologist, like as a, you know, a collaborative community based anthropologist, you have to unlearn half of what you were then taught in the, you know, the academic setting. And so like, for example, like Joseph, you mentioned, you know, how you would treat your grandmother, but like, actually,
00:40:23
Speaker
way I would treat my grandmother is pretty different than the way I would treat an indigenous elder in the sense of like for my grandmother like it's respectful if you were like asking questions and like stuff like that whereas like I had to learn that like oh that's actually not showing that I'm like listening and being respectful so like I think there's also
00:40:48
Speaker
you know, like there's like basic forms of respect, but then there's also being aware that, you know, it's not like these are white people that you add some dances and beads to and then, you know, it's like... Yeah. Well, and this is an example of trying to speak across worlds, right? Right. Walking in different worlds. I mean, I don't know how to...
00:41:09
Speaker
communicate it to settler culture to say like to relate it to a personal experience. So maybe you have a different perspective that's a better way to relate it. But yeah, even saying that relate to these folks like they're your family, I'm still using an indigenous perspective to say that, right? Because I'm relating to them like my family. And for me, that means something as an indigenous person. But yeah, you're right. I mean, you have to be very careful to say that because
00:41:38
Speaker
People treat their family differently depending on their reaction. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I know it's just a lot of, for my experience, it was a lot of just being aware and paying attention to what's happening around you, noticing where there's discomfort.
00:42:00
Speaker
you know, asking about it, receiving that criticism as, you know, not being about you, but about the work itself and making it better, you know, not going into that white fragility moment, but recognizing that it's not about you. So, but it is about you like taking that and making things better. I think that's
00:42:24
Speaker
which, I mean, it's a long, hard, continuous, I'm still going through it every day process. I wish there was an easy, this is what you do done. Yeah. And I think, I think he really touched it there, Jessica, because the, the one thing that really stands out when
00:42:41
Speaker
I think every indigenous person could probably relate to this. The one thing that stands out about interacting with non-indigenous folks is that anything you talk about will somehow be spun to be made about them. It might be central to the culture. In the individualistic culture, it's all about the individual. That might be just inherent to the culture.
00:43:03
Speaker
But it's really destructive when it takes place where people are interacting with indigenous people, right? To kind of recenter what the indigenous person is saying or the stories they're telling or the context that they're in and kind of redirect it at you to highlight yourself. That's something that I would encourage my Western friends to be very conscious of.
00:43:25
Speaker
Anybody have any additional like advice or things that you, you know, from, from Boulder, but from your other work as well about how to, how to do this work and how to do it better.
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah, I would say the first thing across all my work that I would encourage people if they want to do this work or if they're just interested in it, the first thing they should do is to think about their homes and where they live and who was dispossessed of that area so that it could be used by non-native people because just like Rashawn said earlier, everyone is on native land, on stolen land. So I think the first step in educating yourself is to understand whose land you're on.
00:44:02
Speaker
and to learn that history so that you can be a more conscious member of society. Yeah, that would be my first piece of advice. What I will say in some of my other practices within Indian ethnography and anthropology, even like coming from an indigenous background, right, where
00:44:25
Speaker
Everything is so communal and egalitarian in a way, which is very far from the egalitarian, but still in that kind of realm. It's super easy to come off as arrogant, and it's super easy to come off as a know-it-all if you come from a Western perspective to Indigenous peoples.
00:44:44
Speaker
Like, no matter what kind of conversation, no matter what kind of project, if you come from a worldview that as much like Western culture, two indigenous people, you're going to come off as arrogant, you're going to come off as ignorant, right? And within like the awe-inspired work that I see within a lot of the elders and tribal representatives that we have worked with, right, they deal with that constantly. They deal with that
00:45:11
Speaker
all the time. And the fact that they're giving you the time and day for us to be a part of their lives, it makes that so much more valuable in the aspect that these people have PhDs in their culture. They have PhDs in their language, which is intergenerational, which a modern day
00:45:30
Speaker
professor, a PhD scholar will never be able to comprehend, right? And we'll never be able to be on that kind of level. And they don't need those titles. And so those are the kind of like, if I were to give advice and viewpoint is we look up to our elders as if they have PhDs and it's higher than PhDs, right? Yeah. Super easy to be ignorant. Period.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah. And I think thinking about this work with Boulder specifically, I think that's one thing that I was excited about was the city's, the city of Boulder's willingness to like listen and learn and to say like, Hey, we don't know what we're doing at all. We don't know anything. We're asking you for this. We know it's a big ask. And they demonstrate their commitment to that by
00:46:22
Speaker
allocating a lot of resources to this work. They're allocating time, people, money. Like Joseph said, not only the city of Boulder, but the individual people involved are dedicating time to this and to learn about the past.
00:46:38
Speaker
that is directly related to the impactful and meaningful outcomes that they will get out of this. So other advice I would say is I would encourage other cities in the United States and Canada and wherever to look at the work that Boulder is doing as kind of a blueprint for how this work can be done and why it's important to do because the city is getting a lot out of this work. They are really benefiting from it. This isn't like charity work. This is something that
00:47:05
Speaker
everyone is doing for the city, and it is also mutually benefiting the tribes. So this is something that has great mutual benefits for indigenous nations, the city, us, obviously, as anthropologists, like we've been talking about. But I think that every city in the United States could benefit from this. And if there are any cities listening who would like to do it, you could send Living Heritage an email and we'd be happy to help you out.
Gratitude and Collaboration
00:47:32
Speaker
There you go. Well, and I just, I want to say too, like how much of an honor it's been to work with the three of you and how much I've learned from the three of you and how much I appreciate, you know, just the spirit of this group and like everybody's willingness to just like
00:47:49
Speaker
jump in and get it done and do it right and care for the people that we're working with and care for each other. I can't tell you how much I appreciate. For example, Joseph, I was really having an off day during one of our intro meetings and Joseph really jumped in and saved the day because I was flustered from moving from one thing to another really quickly. I just really appreciate how much this group is willing to have real honest conversations and
00:48:19
Speaker
to do whatever needs to be done to do the job well. So I appreciate the three of you so much. But that highlights a really important point, Jessica, because one of the things that makes it such a pleasure to work with you is that you wear your humanity on your shoulders, right? So you wear it on your face. I mean, the fact that you've been doing this work for way longer than
00:48:40
Speaker
I mean, professionally, you've been doing this work for way longer than I've even come close to. And yet, on many occasions, you stop and say, hey, did I do that right? Do you have any recommendations? I'm like, you're asking me? You are asking me? So the fact that you approach this with humility is the reason that these people trust you and call you family. It always comes down to understanding that you are a guest, that you are there to learn their ways.
00:49:09
Speaker
and to elevate their voices as much as you can from your podium, right? And that you are going to make mistakes, you're going to have bad days, and to approach it as the human and hard to the you are is so important. And Boulder, the Boulder individuals that we worked with, the reason they're such a pleasure to work with is the same thing. I mean, I had several of the folks that were there
00:49:31
Speaker
they would do something, they would say something, they would engage with the tribal reps, and then they would come up to me individually, kind of take me to the side and say, hey, did I do that right? Do you think I could have made it better? I mean, just the fact that they're humbled enough to do that speaks volumes as to where your hearts are and what your intentions are.
00:49:53
Speaker
All right. Any last thoughts? Anybody have anything they've been itching to say? Not really. I'm just happy to be a part of this. I'm glad we got to do this. I love working with all of you, just echoing off a lot of Joseph sentiments as well, even just like Jessica, even just like having this podcast, you know, and giving
00:50:11
Speaker
having this opportunity for people to talk about their work is awesome. Yeah. What I really hope is after we finish this report, and it's like out in the public, because that is the goal of this report for it to be a public document. And that was decided by the tribes that we work with. So my hope is it'd be really awesome once that's out in the public.
00:50:33
Speaker
that maybe we can have some of the reps that we work with come on the podcast and share the experience from their perspective. That'd be really cool. That would be awesome. All right. I'm looking forward to the ethnographic report podcast part two. Can we try the reps? It's going to be awesome.
00:50:54
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you all so much for coming and taking all this time and sharing with everybody. And just so excited and honored that I get to keep working with all of you and hopefully many, many more projects. So thanks guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
00:51:17
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Heritage Voices podcast. You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com slash Heritage Voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google Play Music Store. Also, please share with your friends or write us a review. Sharing and reviewing helps more people find the show and gets the perspectives of Heritage Voices amazing guests out there into the world.
00:51:40
Speaker
No, we just need more of that in anthropology and land management. If you have any more questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org. If you'd like to volunteer to be on the show as a guest or even a co-host, reach out to me as well, Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org.
00:51:58
Speaker
You can also follow more of what I'm doing on Facebook at Living Heritage Anthropology and the nonprofit Living Heritage Research Council, or on Twitter at LivingHeritageA. As always, huge thank you to Liable Enqua and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our incredible logo.
00:52:23
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.