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Tamamta (all of us): Transforming Western and Indigenous Sciences together - Ep 89
668 Plays3 months ago
On today’s episode, Jessica talks with Dr. Jessica Black (Gwich’in; Associate Vice Chancellor and Associate Professor in the College of Indigenous Studies at the University of Alaska Fairbanks) and Dr. Courtney Carothers (Professor of Fisheries in the College of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences at the University of Alaska Fairbanks). Dr. Black and Dr. Carothers discuss their work, alongside student colleagues and Alaska Native peoples, to highlight Indigenous fisheries knowledge, Indigenous fisheries science and governance practices, and the structural inequities that keep Indigenous peoples in Alaska from their deep traditional cultural practices, livelihoods, and relations. All of this deeply relational work lead to the birth of Tamamta (a Yup’ik and Sugpiaq word meaning 'all of us'), an organization focused on connecting Indigenous and Western sciences and supporting graduate students deeply connected with Indigenous communities in Alaska on research around fisheries.
Interested in the Accountable Allies group? Keep an eye on the Tamamta website or sign up for their mailing list for resources that this group has been developing.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/heritagevoices/89
Links
- Heritage Voices on the APN
- Tamamta
- State of Alaska’s Salmon and People (SASAP)
- Aulukluki neqkat: centering care of salmon and relational research in Indigenous fisheries in the Kuskokwim River, Alaska (Esquible et al 2024 article)
- Indigenous peoples and salmon stewardship: a critical relationship (article)
- Indigenizing Salmon Management
- Indigeneity, an alternative worldview: four R's (relationship, responsibility, reciprocity, redistribution) vs. two P's (power and profit). Sharing the journey towards conscious evolution (article by La Donna Harris and Jacqueline Wasilewski)
Contact
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- Tee Public Store
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Transcript
Introduction to Heritage Voices Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Highlighting Episode 89: Damamta
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome to Heritage Voices, Episode 89. I'm Jessica Aquinto, and I'm your host. And today we are talking about Damamta, transforming Western and Indigenous sciences together.
Acknowledging Indigenous Lands
00:00:22
Speaker
Before we begin, I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the Nooch or Ute People's Treaty Lands, the Daneta, and the ancestral Puebloan homeland. And today we have Dr. Jessica Black and Dr. Courtney Carruthers
Introducing Jessica Black: Academic Background and Connection
00:00:37
Speaker
on the show. Dr. Jessica Black is Gwich'in from the villages of Gwich'aje, or Fort Yukon, and Tagatili, or Ninana, Alaska. Dr. Black currently serves as an Associate Vice Chancellor and Associate Professor in the College of Indigenous Studies at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks.
00:00:54
Speaker
Dr. Black received her bachelor's degree in social work at University of Alaska Fairbanks and her master's degree and PhD in social work at Washington University in St. Louis. Her dissertation and current research examine the relationship between governance and well-being among Alaska Native peoples.
00:01:12
Speaker
especially as it pertains to tribal stewardship and cultural connectivity. As Associate Vice Chancellor, Dr. Black helps to elevate and support the work of the Alaska Success Initiative, the building out of the Indigenous Studies Center, and the priorities of the Vice Chancellor. Jessica resides in Fairbanks, Alaska, with her family. However, she frequently returns home to Guitjaje to hunt, fish, gather, and engage in other important cultural practices. Welcome to the show, Jessica.
Introducing Dr. Courtney Carruthers: Fisheries and Indigenous Communities
00:01:41
Speaker
Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. Yeah, great to have you. All right. And we also have Dr. Courtney Carruthers on the show. Dr. Courtney Carruthers is a professor of fisheries in the College of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. She holds a PhD in environmental anthropology from the University of Washington. Dr. Carruthers has devoted her career to working with fishing communities across Alaska to better understand the social and cultural dimensions of fishery systems and to improve education, research, and policy processes to better include these dimensions. She partners with Indigenous communities to promote social and environmental justice goals. Her work has advanced the study of human-environment relationships, cultural values, equity, and well-being.
00:02:27
Speaker
Dr. Carruthers current work focuses on transforming fishery systems to center and elevate indigenous perspectives, including her role as PI of the Tamamta program. Dr. Carruthers resides on Denina lands in Anchorage, where she is raising her two daughters. Welcome to the show, Courtney.
Inspiration from Indigenous Upbringing
00:02:45
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate the invitation.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'm i am super excited to to learn more about the work that the two of you are doing. I saw it come up on the Demonta newsletter a while back and have been itching to talk to both of you since then. So I'm really excited and I want to dive right in so I can hear more about your work. So what for both of you, what what got you into this type of work?
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, so maybe I'll start. This is Jessica. I grew up in Fort Yukon and also Ninana, both indigenous Alaska native villages here in Alaska. And growing up, I was part of a large extended family, as most native people are. And my grandparents would take us every summer to fish along the Yukon River with our great aunties and uncles and large family.
00:03:41
Speaker
And my grandpa, quite on Isaac John, he was an amazing fish wheel builder and just an amazing provider and taught us how to do the same. And my grandma was a vivid storyteller. And so we spent our summers along the Yukon River. And just fishing was a part of our life. And when we returned to the village you know more in August, so we would be there from June to August.
00:04:09
Speaker
we'd share our catch and my grandpa would remember grab his wheelbarrow and share with the community all the fish and I just grew up with fish as a central part of my life and fast forward Now in my career, I am much older, but it has been, this will be the fifth year that we have not fished for salmon on the Yukon River due to a collapse of Chinook or king salmon and also chum salmon, which are
00:04:46
Speaker
later in the season so usually you fish for king salmon in June and July and then the early fall chum come in at the beginning of August and then the late fall chum come more towards the end of August early September and those those late chum come for dog food so fish was just a central part of our lives so growing up along the Yukon River instilled with this value of working hard to fish and provide for your family. And then fast forward, you know, decades later, we have a total collapse of fisheries. And so what really brought me to this work is the deep inequities that exist around who gets to say
00:05:30
Speaker
who gets to fish and where the problems lie in terms of why these collapses are occurring and what are we going to do about it. And so Alaska is a unique place. It is home to over 200 federally recognized tribes. I think there's 231, maybe got the number a little wrong.
00:05:51
Speaker
And we have been in this place for over 10,000 years. In fact, some of the earliest recording of people and fish relationships occurred 11,500 years ago in the Tanana River Basin, which is where Nana's located.
00:06:08
Speaker
And so indigenous present stewardship, yet we don't have equitable seats at decision making tables because even though we're federally recognized tribes, the land ownership is very unique. A lot of indigenous lands are owned by corporations, Alaska Native corporations, some tribal lands, some individual allotments. And so the whole land governance process has really in some ways impacted, or I'd say in many ways impacted our ability to be respected and brought to the table in fisheries decisions, even though that shouldn't matter. We've been long-term stewards regardless of who owns the land. So I'm just very passionate. I
00:06:55
Speaker
have my background in social work so I'm very much focused on well-being, our ability as tribal people to weigh in on those decisions that bring us well-being such as natural resources, stewardship, I call them relatives, resources doesn't really reflect what I feel and yet we've been erased and marginalized in the decision-making process and we're witnessing in real time a total collapse of our way of life due to these fisheries collapses and it's been devastating. So I'm very motivated to make a difference in this work. And that's what brought me to Demont Dutt in one way.
Shaping Research Focus through Indigenous Experiences
00:07:34
Speaker
Thank you.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, and I can share. um This is Courtney. I'm really coming to this with a lot of passion as well. um I'm a settler here in Alaska, a white settler originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And I was blessed to be able to start my PhD program in Seattle, Washington and and had a research assistantship with NOAA Fisheries 20 or so years ago and was brought to Kodiak Island as part of a The federal agency was was showcasing a new program where communities in the Gulf of Alaska could collectively purchase fishing rights because they'd lost a lot of fishing rights. And I was a young student at the time, and I was asking a lot of questions about why why did communities lose their fishing rights? and And also came to learn that these weren't just any communities. They were the indigenous communities of these lands that had fished for 10,000 plus years and really had no access to the fish right out their back door. so
00:08:30
Speaker
similar but different to what Jessica was sharing where in Kodiak when I was visiting there 20 years ago, abundance of fish, you know abundance of salmon, commercial fisheries, subsistence fisheries, but yet people were being regulated out of their own fish through the privatization of access. I think in the 1980s, the right to fish for salmon in Kodiak was like $200,000.
00:08:53
Speaker
so to purchase that permit. and you And I was again blessed with an ability to do my PhD research in the village of Old Harbor and some other Sugpyak Aleutic villages in the Kodiak Archipelago and had elders telling me stories really just showing me the amazing ways of life, their fishing ways of life, their are deep connections to place, to fish, to to everything, and and in how many, how Few years since the these programs were put in place that there had been a severing of those livelihoods And it just it struck me as being you know, I'm from Pittsburgh We were told not really to eat fish when I was growing up because of all the industrial pollution I have like really no connection to fish or or that lifestyle. I really knew nothing about it I just came in as a total outsider, but it just shocked me at how I inequitable this the system was and how little people knew about that inequity. And so that was a really important way point in my life where I wanted to try to help you know through the the close relationships I formed with communities and and people in that region help to write those inequities. and And that's what really brought Jessica and I together, even though we came from really different places and different fields, these inequities around how fisheries were being you know
00:10:12
Speaker
taught about, researched and governed, the indigenous people of of Alaska really were being left out in all respects. And so we got super motivated and and super blessed to have been introduced to each other and and able to work on this problem from a lot of different angles together. How did you guys get introduced to each other?
00:10:33
Speaker
Yvonne Peter, jessicas former of the vice chance the former vice chancellor of UAF, and introduced us, was it 10 years ago, Jess? I remember the first... I cold called Jessica from the front seat of my van while nursing like a one-year-old baby, like in the parking a lot of Target. And I felt so unprofessional. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm calling Dr. Black. She's going to just, you know,
00:10:59
Speaker
I don't know, I think who is this crazy person calling me? And just from the first moment, he was like, Oh my God, like I have a daughter the same age. And we just really bonded right away personally, I think more more, and then got to know each other more professionally. But yeah, yeah, I remember that call vividly.
00:11:17
Speaker
And so I begged her, we had gotten a ah foundation, wanted to give some money to support salmon research. And so we had sort of gotten this, you know, some biology type folks were leading work around salmon and they at least had enough, you know, foresight to think about the social and cultural aspects of salmon systems. And so they had asked me to lead some part of this social you know cultural dimensions of salmon systems and I felt very uncomfortable to do that without an indigenous scholar leading that portion and so Jessica was really gracious to kind of accept this invitation not knowing the full team and I didn't know much at that time either but we came together to kind of set out something that was
00:11:59
Speaker
ended up being pretty good. It was called the State of Alaska Salmon and People Project and it's sasap.org. We can put that in the show notes. There's a lot of data that was collected as part of that process, but it brought together a large team and Jessica led the Indigenous component of that. And what did the Indigenous component of that look like?
00:12:18
Speaker
Well, for SESAP, at that stage, we really were trying to reveal, I think in general, the fisheries system, like the fisheries science, they've relied very kind of narrowly on biological, ecological, occasionally economic data. So one of our major goals in that work was to just show the amazing depth of knowledge and data and and everything that exists.
00:12:43
Speaker
you know Indigenous peoples have been stewarding their fishery systems for 10,000 plus years. They have the most rich source of data that we have. And so it's really, we try to kind of reverse that dominant story of a place like the Yukon or a place like the Kuskokwim.
00:12:59
Speaker
the the fishery scientists call it quote unquote data poor. Like there's not much time series data on some of these systems in Alaska from a Western science perspective, but there's an incredibly deep indigenous knowledge base. So some of our first steps were just sort of helping to um increase the visibility of indigenous data and knowledge as valid. And we shouldn't have to make that point, but that was sadly a lot of our early work was trying to convince fishery scientists that Indigenous knowledge should have a place at the table and in fact really should be guiding it in a place like Alaska where there's just such a better data set than the Western data set.
Diversity of Indigenous Voices in Alaska: Challenges and Solutions
00:13:38
Speaker
And part of that was really just bringing Indigenous people together to frame the work and speak for themselves through their lens, different worldview lenses and voices and
00:13:52
Speaker
make space for that and that sacred time together. And through that process, people really fed off of each other. And someone would say something about an early life experience and another person, you know, you could see the lights firing and the, you know, they're remembering of something similar from their part of the state. And there was just a lot of connection and shared knowledge. And there were what we consider elders and there were people like myself in the early stages of my career. We had students so multi-generations in a space sharing knowledge together and identifying some of these inequities but also the many strengths that exist in our community for bettering fisheries in the state of fisheries in Alaska.
00:14:46
Speaker
So, I mean, one question that I have off of that is obviously you talked about how many different peoples there are in Alaska. How did you how did you navigate that? I mean, it just seems like it could be such a massive undertaking with so many different peoples.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I think with Alaska, we are always fine tuning our process and processes, Courtney and I, in terms of trying to invite and reflect the many voices that exist within our state so we have different regions of the state. So there'll be like, say, 42 tribes in the interior where I live. And that's the Yukon River and Tanana River Basins. we In southwest Alaska, we have the Yukon and Kuskokwim region with, I think, over 50 tribal nations. So we tried to look at different regions of our state and invite tribes and peoples to come into our work. We very much relied on a principle called
00:15:58
Speaker
Relationality, which is a concept that LaDonna Harris talks about and Jacqueline Wasilewski in an article titled indigeneity and alternative worldview the four R's and By inviting people through our various relationships, we would reach different parts of the state. So, for example, you know, one of our students was working as the natural resources director in Bethel, which is in Southwest Alaska and serves predominantly Yup'ik, Chup'ik,
00:16:34
Speaker
Athabascan and some, I think, Inupiaq. Well, not really Inupiaq. I would say Chupac, Yupac, and Athabascan peoples. And she had extensive relationships in her work and in her region.
00:16:54
Speaker
And so she would invite folks into the work, or we had a partner in Bristol Bay. And so the partner in Bristol Bay had extended relationships. So we really relied on this principle of relationality and inviting people into the work, including allies who were very interested in engaging in this work. Because the title, Damumpta, means all of us.
00:17:22
Speaker
And so by inviting in allies and inviting in relations of our team, people who are either related to our team members through relatives or close friends or mentors, we really started to build our extended network.
00:17:44
Speaker
Now, with that said, we weren't able to reflect every single region in the state through some of this work, but we really attempted to.
Documenting Indigenous Salmon Knowledge Systems
00:17:56
Speaker
And Courtney, did we did we reflect every region? I'm trying to remember. For the SACEP, we definitely did cover every region, but SACEP also gave gave rise to another project, indigenizing salmon management. And that was one that our team of advisors really encouraged us to have you know statewide represent representation and engagement but that's been hard because like Jessica said our work is really situated in relationality and to do the kind of relation building and and ah and and nurturing of those relations through our students and through our team
00:18:35
Speaker
we've we've sort of naturally had to grow those in certain regions and haven't, we've been spread a bit thin to to do that across the whole state. So I would say for the ASAP we have, if you look at the website, there's a lot of social and cultural and other kinds of data across the whole state with human, if with people, salmon relations, but some of our other more deeper engaged work, it's been a little more focused in regions that our students primarily are are based in.
00:19:03
Speaker
All right. Well, I am very excited to hear more about this next project and, and all of the the rest of your adventures since you guys met, but we are already at our first break point. So we will be right back here in a moment.
00:19:19
Speaker
Hey, so coming back from our break, I am really excited to, okay, we talked about SESAP, right? yes So let's talk some more about that next project. So how did the next one come about?
00:19:36
Speaker
Courtney, you want to start? know and Sure. So yes, I think through the SESAP project where a lot of that was kind of making visible the depth of knowledge you know and governing practices that are that are current and and contemporary and still exist in many cases.
00:19:54
Speaker
We thought it would be really important to do a deeper you know ah deeper look and working with communities and tribal nations as sovereign governments to help us really better understand the Indigenous knowledge and governance systems that have been used to steward salmon for so many thousands of years.
00:20:13
Speaker
And so we yeah applied to and NSF through their Arctic Social Sciences program, Jessica's the PI of that grant, and really wanted to to help document and and deepen you know our our knowledge about these amazing indigenous stewardship systems that that really developed in place with salmon over over millennia. And so that project is really centering indigenous methodologies in terms of working with communities, you know, and in this might appeal to some of your anthropology audience. I was trained as an anthropologist, you know, the way I think about like interviews, right? You're trying to interview like a single person and kind of get their interview, you know, you you want to sort of see what they know and and and this individualism. And we had yeah very early guidance of
00:20:59
Speaker
ah multigenerational interviews really are an appropriate way to to gather all the depth of knowledge you know across generations, across genders, across you know everything. And those have been incredibly wonderful to be part of, again, with students leading the work in their home communities, in their home regions, and using their cultural protocols of of ethics, of of just appropriate ways to engage in that research, compensating elders for their time, things like that. We've also been partnering with First Alaskans Institute. It's a very powerful indigenous organization in Alaska that has been uplifting really hard dialogues on racial equity across the state and throughout sectors, health care, justice system, education, fisheries. And so part of our
00:21:47
Speaker
thinking about this project was that a lot of the problems that we see in the governance system is because of deep structural racism and and persistent colonial mentality. And so to get past that, or to start to address that, a lot of work we felt was needed with you know settler scientists, managers who really view these resource management systems as value neutral. you know It's just the objective data. Like if we just have the data, we make decisions and they really don't see any issue of equity or any so any you know systemic ah exclusion. And so that's been a big part of the work, a really hard part of the work, but I think so important in terms of what the folks who are leaning into that work are learning. And that's from the settler side. And maybe Jess, I could pass to you in terms of
00:22:40
Speaker
how these dialogues have felt, you know, as an Indigenous person and for our Indigenous students, because it's a very different, you know, set of things that come up in these dialogues for Indigenous people. Yeah, thank you. So the indigenizing salmon science and management project aims to document the breadth and depth of knowledge, Indigenous knowledge as it pertains to fisheries,
00:23:04
Speaker
science and governance document the breadth and depth of indigenous knowledge as it pertains to how these systems could be improved. And also, as Courtney mentioned, really understand from some of the federal and state managers, their perspectives, and how they either do or don't incorporate indigenous knowledge into salmon science and governance. so It has these three overarching goals. And we have a Google site that shares some of this information that we can put in the notes. But it's been a really amazing so experience. I do serve as the principal investigator. And again, I really operate from my indigenous values. And predominantly, I really look at these values of respect.
00:23:55
Speaker
relationality, reciprocity, redistribution. These are that are solid to my upbringing as an Indigenous person, but also in how I operate in the world. So I really wanted to ensure that this project brought in as many Indigenous
Integrating Indigenous Voices and Addressing Structural Racism
00:24:14
Speaker
scholars as possible. So we have elders that advise the project and they were the elders that also helped us on the State of Alaska Salmon and People project. And then we invited in Indigenous scholars who are getting their bachelor's, master's, and PhD at UAF to join in the
00:24:33
Speaker
on the project and help us document the data in their own specific regions of the state. So if they were from the Yukon River, they would help us with those interviews. If they were from Bristol Bay, the same. If they were from the Aleutians or they were from the Cuscoquin River, we would support them in helping us document the breadth and depth of vi Indigenous knowledge as it pertain to salmon science and governance.
00:25:01
Speaker
And I think that the way in which I carried out the research methodology to reflect Indigenous values is very unique and I think It's because I'm an indigenous scholar that I could really push that and ins ensure that we as scholars were being reciprocal in our relationships with communities and not just taking data, making a name for ourselves and moving on that we were actually in good relationship and redistributing the data back to community. We were.
00:25:38
Speaker
teaching younger Indigenous students to document the knowledge of their people, giving them the opportunity to engage in this work. I should say that the way we view our students is very much as colleagues, so we see them as whole people bringing a lot of knowledge to our research space spaces, teaching us as well how to be in better relationships with communities.
00:26:08
Speaker
And I think at the end of the day, remaking research relationships so that we are not engaging in the process of extracting knowledge from communities and going on with our careers without being reciprocal and in good relationship, returning data, you know ah respecting data sovereignty, reflecting questions that the community ah communities feel like should be asked. So really engaging in deeply relational work, and that takes a long time.
00:26:46
Speaker
I'm very proud of the work that we have done so far. I think ISM has really supported a lot of indigenous scholarship and taught other scientists how to engage in this work in a good way and create stronger reciprocal relationships with indigenous communities. But it does take a lot of effort and time and For example, with the dialogues with predominantly Indigenous peoples, it may be a very different type of dialogue than if you had Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples in the dialogue because everybody is at different places with their understanding of, for example, colonization and its ongoing impacts
00:27:41
Speaker
that really target these issues of inequity. So we've had to really be reflective in our own processes so that when we ask students, for example, to participate in these dialogues, that they're prepared to have these hard conversations, but also you know, be at a different place than say, maybe even their professors who have less understanding of these long term issues than they do. So there's been a lot of adjusting as we've gone along. And again, we've always done deeply relational work, very reflective when we get critical feedback and tried to adjust in real time as we've gone
00:28:26
Speaker
forward in ISM. Yeah and one of the last things Jessica was sharing about this reflexivity and I think one of the last dialogues that we hosted, we recognized the need for for kind of um accountability for some of the allies that are engaged in this work and so that's another thing that kind of in response to the recognition that some of the faculty and and others, you know, in the state and federal fishery system that are engaging on these topics that have a good intention and want to lean into this work are are coming maybe from a place where more learning is needed before they can effectively engage or, you know, just the sort of deepening all of our own work as settlers in an indigenous place. And so we have a colleague, Peter Wesley. He's part of the Demumta leadership team. He's a um evolutionary
00:29:17
Speaker
ecologist, a fisheries evolutionary ecologist, also at UAF, and so he is helping to lead an accountable allies group where those of us non-indigenous folks in this work are trying to do hard work, meeting regularly, um hosting their own kind of learning events so that we can shoulder some of the emotional labor and other kinds of labor that, you know, Jessica and other Indigenous scholars and students are are having to labour on a daily basis in our institutions that that really need to shift and are slowly shifting, but we're trying to, you know, that's again, the the spirit of Demumta is this work of transformation really is for all of us to be doing and in the appropriate roles that we
00:30:01
Speaker
can play.
Demumpta's Role in Fisheries Management and Education
00:30:02
Speaker
and And so for me as a settler and ah someone coming to these understandings later in life and not having lived experience of you know oppression and equity you know because of my ah position, I think that's something that's so important. And and hopefully your you know your audience, your listeners in the realms that that we're all in are are helping working toward greater equity in the spaces that we're in and all kinds of ways. Yeah. And I imagine, I mean, if if someone's listening to the show and and keeping listening to it, they ah for sure at least want to be an ally. But I do think that is an important point. What are some of the the highlights
00:30:42
Speaker
from that group or things that you would share to people that ah really want to do this type of work, but maybe don't have like don't even realize that they don't have the background to do it yet.
00:30:55
Speaker
That's a great question. We're starting to kind of curate a set of these learnings and sort of writing a paper actually on some of some of this right now. So it it is fresh in our minds, but we haven't necessarily you know gotten those three to five sort of learnings. But one thing that comes to mind for me in our space in fisheries, which may ah apply you know to other disciplines like anthropology and other sciences,
00:31:22
Speaker
I think a lot of scientists really think about, you know, they might be engaged in like diversity or equity and inclusion work in a personal level or in their communities or or even in their universities, but they don't think about how that connects to their science and their scientific expertise. So we have fisheries scientists who still, you know, even after being engaged with Demumta for years,
00:31:46
Speaker
think about science, Western science as universal. it's the it's it's ah It's a universal way of knowing, or if it's not universal, it's at least the best way of knowing. And the kind of constant battle, and this is again where I think Jessica and I being a team of native and non-native scientists in this work, like i we can experience together like the ways in which just indigenous knowledge is consistently disrespected in our in our scientific meetings and and even like unknowingly by the people that are you know calling the the knowledge of the Yukon River, you know quote unquote, anecdotal or dismissing it or marginalizing it. So I think that for me, one of the key learnings is for scientists,
00:32:31
Speaker
myself included, to recognize that the kinds of colonial paradigms that we've inherited, that Western European knowledge systems are superior, that that quantitative measurement is superior, that, you know, all of these ways that we, that we as I'm speaking for myself, but other, you know, Western European raised people raised in in our cultures and families,
00:32:56
Speaker
can unknowingly continue that perpetuation of like a hierarchy of ah of a Western supremacy in our sciences, in our writing, how we host space and hold meetings, like there's in numerous ways that we can all be reflecting on this. And that's another thing that Jessica and I and other people in this work, other faculty in this work reflect on.
00:33:17
Speaker
when we're advising Indigenous students, like I don't want to edit, you know, writing of a brilliant Indigenous scholar to make it more Western to conform to a journal, you know, paradigm of you should, you know, so that's another like really active set of discussions that we're having at UAF and our departments of like what constitutes a thesis, what constitutes you know peer review for so for some of the scientific work that our students are producing with their indigenous pedagogies and world views and methodologies there aren't really peer appropriate peer reviewers potentially for that like on a scientific journal board or you know that those sorts of things there's just a lot there and I'm excited to share some of what we've been learning and in this paper that that we're working on to share out and we can
00:34:07
Speaker
link that to a future to a future. It's not ready yet to share, but excited to follow up when that is ready to share. so Okay, so this second project, it sounds like really built on the first, and you mentioned previously that this second project really led to Demumta. How did this project lead to this organization? So I'm hearing maybe the question is, how was Demumta birthed?
00:34:35
Speaker
Yes, that's a better way of putting it. Do you two do you want to start Jess and I can fill in? Yeah. So from indigenizing salmon science and management, ISM really came the documented recognition that inequities and fisheries management and science do indeed exist. Again, I say documented because we as indigenous people knew these inequities have existed, but we engaged in the process of documenting the breadth of and depth of indigenous knowledge as it pertained to fisheries science and management and documenting the inequities that people were facing across the state.
00:35:21
Speaker
And from this work came the idea generation, and we call it the birthing of Damumptah, which means all of us in the Yup'ik and Suqpyak languages. So Damumptah really aims to uplift Indigenous, the next generation of Indigenous scholars who are engaging in transformational educational processes and research to address these inequities and uplift Indigenous knowledge in their home regions across Alaska, the nation, and
00:36:02
Speaker
We have 19 fellows, predominantly indigenous and a few allies, and they are change makers. They came to the program as leaders and are really creating ripple effects outwards to change the way fisheries and other related fields operate in our educational system and beyond.
00:36:29
Speaker
So, okay, now that we're all super excited to hear more, we're gonna take a break. ok But then we will come right back and I'm really excited to hear more about the specific initiatives that you guys are doing at Demumptah.
Supporting Indigenous-Led Research Projects
00:36:44
Speaker
Okay, so we're back and very excited to hear more about Demumptah. Can you tell us some more about some of the the specific work that you guys are trying to do right now?
00:36:58
Speaker
Yes, so I think ah Jessica did a great job of sort of characterizing these deep inequities that really birthed this project where we really felt to address the issues that we're facing in the fishery systems in Alaska. It's not superficial change that's needed, it's really deep transformative change.
00:37:17
Speaker
There is also superficial change needed, and I'll just mention that one of the motivating factors for Uplifting Demumta, which is a National Science Foundation, and NRT. It's their National Research Traineeship Programs. It's meant to catalyze transformational change in graduate education.
00:37:37
Speaker
So the bulk of the support of these grants from NSF support students to get their graduate degrees. And so in our, one of the things that we recognize in addition to the inequities that we've talked about with like fisheries governance, who has access, who gets to decide, fisheries collapse, there's also a very large representational inequity in terms of our student body at UAF. So overall,
00:38:02
Speaker
in the population, Alaska Native people make up about 20% of the population of Alaska, and that's represented in our student body at the undergraduate level, generally. For graduate students in the school of fisheries the College of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences, less than 2% of our graduate students identified as Alaska Native before we started this program. So we really wanted to also uplift Indigenous students to be welcomed into our college to get their graduate degrees to become the next generation of managers and scientists and we we knew that would be in and in and of itself transformative change. But in in in addition to that representational equity, the what we what are we teaching in our classes at the the College of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences? you know
00:38:49
Speaker
on the homelands of the Lower Tanana Dine peoples, are we are we acknowledging the long-term knowledge and stewardship of Indigenous people for their fishery systems? And largely, before Demumta, we weren't at all. And this is, again, another catalyzing, what helped give rise to this fire to create this transformational kind of approach is Indigenous students who shared with us how it feels to sit in a classroom in their own homelands and be completely erased from acknowledgement in any way. The visual signage, the professor knowing anything about your people and their governance systems, just just just basic you know kind of things that were not you know being being uplifted at all in our fisheries program. So that was a major a major target.
00:39:39
Speaker
of this work, the heart of our program is supporting Indigenous and Allied students. That's the heart of it. But relatedly is some really deep work with our faculty in the college to sort of help ah share about some of these, about Indigenous erasure, about the kinds of ways that faculty who might not be knowledgeable about Indigenous history and contemporary stewardship systems can lean in and learn about that, or they can have relationships with Jessica and other Indigenous faculty at UAF, but also the elder advisors that we work with in our program. We can, and we have a program to bring elders into the classroom. where We're supporting them as, as experts, you know, with, with, you know, on Auraria, recognizing their time is incredibly valuable and in making it so they can be supported to be educators alongside our our other faculty on campus.
00:40:33
Speaker
We've been doing deep exchange work where we're kind of like trying to be together using an indigenous you know pedagogical approach of land-based relationality. So gathering together as a community, um we've been blessed to be invited to Howard Luke's Gilea spirit camp. Howard Luke was an elder who has since passed away, but really wanted his land to be, and his family continues this, wanted his land to be used for education.
00:41:00
Speaker
and gathering, and it's right across from the Fairbanks campus on the Tanana River. And so we've been welcomed by the family there to gather as a community to to to learn together, to support our students as they start their program, but also to have our faculty deepen their understanding of Indigenous connections to and and and history. And so that's been a major thrust.
00:41:24
Speaker
And then we also um are starting to deepen our relations with the state and federal partners, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and other state partners as well as NOAA Fisheries and US Fish and Wildlife Service and some of the federal folks that really want to, they they want sort of a best practices or they want to figure out how to better include indigenous people and indigenous knowledge in their, in the work that they do. And that again, centering relationality, it it takes a while to do that in a good way. And so we've been trying to help catalyze some of that change. You know, it's um one thing I love about all of that. I i keep hearing through that the nonprofit that we founded a group of us, we have indigenous interns. And one thing that we keep hearing from them is how
00:42:10
Speaker
actually ah rare of an opportunity it is for a lot of them to have the opportunity to really interact in depth with elders and just kind of have that that reason to approach an elder, I guess, and and how meaningful that is. So I love this aspect of you know you guys paying honorarium for elders to come into the classroom and and these other types of of opportunities for students to have that opportunity to engage with with elders. and just I love that.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's so precious. Anytime that we all have been gifted with elders in in the retreats that we were mentioning in the the time on the land, inviting elders to join us for that whole set of days and just being with us, you know, for meals and for cultural activities and stories. It's it's just been really profound. I think for all of us to be able to spend some deep time with with precious elders. Yeah.
00:43:05
Speaker
Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. No, this is, this is amazing. I also love the fact that you have programs, you know, set up by region where the students are really like leading the effort for their own region. I don't know. It just, it's really cool. It's really interesting. So one really cool aspect of Dementa in addition to us.
Showcasing Student-Led Research Impact
00:43:31
Speaker
supporting, encouraging, uplifting elders to come into our institutions and teach and recognized as the scholars that they are is that we also really support our students in engaging in the research that they want to engage in with communities. So our students are from all over the state of Alaska and the lower 48, we have a few from the lower 48, but they live here in Alaska, make their homes in our Alaska communities and work
00:44:03
Speaker
in relationship with the communities in which they live and work. And they variety, the diversity in the projects they engage in are so amazing. And we've really supported and honored their autonomy in what they would like to study in supporting the communities that they work with. So it truly is Indigenous led research because we have, like I mentioned, we have mainly indigenous fellows with a few allies, non-indigenous fellows, but they are taking their lead and cues from the communities in which they work with. So all of the projects center on indigenous knowledge and or
00:44:54
Speaker
with the communities that they work with. So that has been amazing. You know, some of the projects are really focused on the Western science aspect of understanding, say, a fishery in a certain part of Alaska from a Western science perspective, looking at, say, population dynamics.
00:45:14
Speaker
but they're still reflecting on that knowledge that they are acquiring and studying from their own Indigenous lens or if they have Indigenous advisors to their projects. So there is always that grounding that exists and even if our students weren't raised in an indigenous community or if they're non-indigenous they are really working so closely with our communities that they are offered these different different perspectives in addition to their western science training. So it has totally transformed and enriched the students' work as described by the students or fellows themselves and
00:46:04
Speaker
It's adding so much to the field and our understanding of all of these different you know fisheries, these different environmental factors, the impact on indigenous peoples. So I think it's just been so amazing to witness and be a part of. If you guys are comfortable, if if it's appropriate, if you could give a couple of like quick examples of some of the different projects that the students are working on.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I can start and maybe Jess can share. So I think we mentioned Janessa Esquible. She's an Ojibwe student who has been long connected to the community of Bethel. And so she's been, she's about to finish and defend her dissertation in August 2024 this year. yeah congratulationt And so she's Yeah, she's been really just, well as Jessica said, students that come into our program come in as leaders. And I've just been so amazed at how she as a student centers mentorship as such a key part of how she wants to do the research that she's been doing as part of her PhD. And so she I've seen her a lot.
00:47:13
Speaker
together with students that she's mentored since they were in, you know, younger and in high school up through now they're graduating college and actually taking the positions that she used to hold for the tribe or the the tribal fisheries or the Kuskalum River Intertribal Fish Commission. so I just want to say that that kind of relationality and indigenous process of research and how important mentorship and other kinds of relations are to the process just just flows through so many of our students' work. So I i wanted to highlight you know her work as well. she She was part of the ISM, the Indigenizing Salmon Management Project, and so visited with fishermen and and elders up and ah up and down the Cuscoquim River.
00:47:55
Speaker
on on a series of questions around their their knowledge and and ways of of stewarding and being in relationship with salmon. And it's been a hard time, as Jessica said, the collapse on the Yukon and the Cuscoquims also had closures for their you know vital subsistence fisheries. So being able to sit with elders and others at you know fish camp, maybe when fishing is closed and capturing some of the heartache and the the hardship that comes from not being able to fish. So she's she's published a paper, I think we shared it with you for the notes, Esquibile et al. 2024 on some of her work on the Cuscoquim River. And then Tasia Wagner's work comes to mind. I think I mentioned that
00:48:39
Speaker
I kind of came into this work in Alaska through looking at some of the policies that have privatized the right to fish in Alaska, one of them being the limited entry state program for salmon permits. So you have to have you have to have a license to to fish for salmon, and it's a very high value asset. It's hard to get in one day to the next. People didn't need them, and then you did need them. So she's been studying in her home community of Metlakatla, which is the only reservation in Alaska. And they do run the largest tribal fishery in the US. So they have a tribal fishery. Tasia Wagner works as part of their fisheries department. But they've also been highly impacted by state and federal policies that have limited their access to fisheries outside of their reservation boundaries. And so she's been studying and working with her community and community leadership to document
00:49:34
Speaker
the effects that limited entry permit system have had on their Metlakatlan fishermen and fisheries and that's been a kind of an overlooked story and it's really important that she's telling that you know from Shimshian from the community perspective and her as an indigenous scholar um hosting those conversations and and shareings in ways that are appropriate for the community.
00:49:57
Speaker
So I'm sure there's lots of students listening, and if someone is interested in getting a fellowship with DeMumta, what is the process for becoming a
Encouraging Collective Action for Change
00:50:08
Speaker
fellow?
00:50:08
Speaker
Okay, so yes, we are very hopeful that this program is going to continue long into the future. We did have a NSF, the National Science Foundation funds these graduate transformational opportunities only for five years. And so we are nearing our five year termination from NSF point, but we are very actively engaging in fundraising and relation building to potentially continue this program being funded within the state of Alaska and also with other partners. So we'll keep students up to date on the Demumta.org website. We have a listserv where we share announcements. So right now we're not actively recruiting for a cohort that would start this coming year, but we're hopeful that we can for the for the following year, 25, 26, but we don't know for certain about that yet.
00:50:58
Speaker
and in terms of our ability to fund. The cohort model has been incredibly an important part of our success. I think the students have shared that they really like being part of a cohort that comes in together, goes through a lot of their first year classes together. We also have a program coordinator, Dr. Sonia Barra, who is an indigenous scholar and who went through our PhD program in fisheries at UAF and shared a lot of her experiences as an indigenous student that also helped to give rise to how we wanted to design this program and so she is another really important piece of our model of mentorship um and has been again students have all reflected on the important role that she's played as a as a mentor so
00:51:42
Speaker
for other departments and faculty potentially listening who may have similar interest in something like this, the importance of appropriate Indigenous mentorship, I think is one of the other key points that we've been trying to elevate.
00:51:58
Speaker
So if someone is interested in donating to Tamamta, how would they do that? They could get in touch with any of our team on our website. So myself, Courtney, Sonia Barra, our program coordinator, Jessica, any of us, we have ah we have a UAA foundation that is is accepting gifts to support this program currently. And we we would be happy to visit with anyone who might you even have a hint of an interest. ah We'd be happy to visit with All right. Well, either of you two, I cannot, it always goes so fast, but do either of you have any, you know, burning last thoughts that, that you would want our listeners to know about, you know, your work, de momta ah the students, whatever, whatever comes to mind.
00:52:41
Speaker
Yeah, I would just like to thank our listeners for joining into the podcast today and hearing what we have to say. I think that transformational change begins with all of us. And it's important to get involved because while we're talking about change transformational change in Alaska as it relates to, say, fisheries and some of the inequities that exist and collapsing fisheries. There are different challenges all over the world, including wherever you are tuning in from. And it is really powerful when people come together to
00:53:24
Speaker
listen to try and understand and to engage in this change. And the way I like to think about it is we want to create a better world for the next seven generations. So the change begins with all of us. the momta Thank you.
00:53:42
Speaker
Yeah, I love that Jess and I was thinking on a similar line just to share again as a non-native person in this work. the I think sometimes for some of you listeners you you may feel this or have colleagues that do this sort of trepidation and fear about like making things worse or what's my role in this work. i have reflected on this quite a lot and i'm I'm in a leadership role in this work as a non-native person and i I think about the appropriateness of that a lot and the appropriateness of my role but I want to share that Indigenous mentors, Jessica included and others have always encouraged me that you might not have it figured out, you might not be perfect at figuring exactly what your role is or or the best way to say something but
00:54:29
Speaker
the The crises are real and the time is now to sort of be rolling up your sleeves and helping in this work. And so I just want to also give a shout out to listeners who might feel this as far from what they do. But like as Jessica said, it's it's really about all of us.
00:54:44
Speaker
in the ways that we can coming together to center this equity and it's it's it's it's a vital importance for Indigenous youth and others and and really for the whole planet and the kinds of crises that we're facing at this time. So just really appreciate you know everyone's attention and and we you know i'm I'm very happy to follow up with anyone and our team is if if you want to keep the conversation going.
00:55:08
Speaker
Well, I just want to say thank you so much, both of you, obviously, for your time today, but also for all of this work that you're doing. It's incredibly important, and I would love to see more of these kinds of efforts, you know, down in the the lower 48 and other parts of the world. So I hope everyone will will check out the Demumta website, sign up for the newsletter, and continue to learn more about the kind of work that you guys are doing. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much.
00:55:40
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Heritage Voices podcast. You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com slash Heritage Voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google Play Music Store. Also, please share with your friends or write us a review. Sharing and reviewing helps more people find the show and gets the perspectives of Heritage Voices amazing guests out there into the world.
Episode Conclusion and Credits
00:56:03
Speaker
No, we just need more of that in anthropology and land management. If you have any more questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org. If you'd like to volunteer to be on the show as a guest or even a co-host, reach out to me as well, Jessica at livingheritageanthropology dot.org. You can also follow more of what I'm doing on Facebook at Living Heritage Anthropology and the nonprofit Living Heritage Research Council, or on Twitter at LivingHeritageA. As always, huge thank you to Liable Enqua and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our incredible logo.
00:56:46
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, Dig Tech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.