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Browns Canyon National Monument - Ep 78
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On today’s episode, Jessica joins some of her Ute research partners to talk about the work they have all been doing together at Browns Canyon National Monument. This work is being conducted through the non-profit Living Heritage Research Council and funded by the Bureau of Land Management Colorado and the Colorado State Historical Fund. Mr. Terry Knight (Ute Mountain Ute Tribal Historic Preservation Officer), Mr. Mark Wing (Living Heritage Research Council Ute team member), and Ms. Sapphire Ortiz (NAGPRA Coordinator, Southern Ute Indian Tribe) talk about the project, their favorite parts, learning moments, and what they want people to know about the Ute people. Last but not least, they give advice for anyone doing Tribal Consultations or ethnographic research.
Links
- Ute Mountain Ute THPO: https://www.utemountainutetribe.com/cultural%20preservation%20THPO.html
- Southern Ute Cultural Preservation Department: https://www.southernute-nsn.gov/cultural-preservation/
- Colorado State Historical Fund: https://www.historycolorado.org/state-historical-fund
- Browns Canyon National Monument (BLM Website): https://www.blm.gov/programs/national-conservation-lands/colorado/browns-canyon
- Browns Canyon National Monument (USFS Website): https://www.fs.usda.gov/visit/browns-canyon-national-monument
- Friends of Browns Canyon (Scroll Down for Spirit of Browns Canyon Video): https://brownscanyon.org/
Contact
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
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- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
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Transcript
Introduction: Browns Canyon National Monument
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Welcome to Heritage Voices, Episode 78. I'm Jess B. Aquinto and I'm your host. And today we are talking about Browns Canyon National Monument. And today I am recording this episode on Noochland.
00:00:24
Speaker
with a group of new people. So today we have Mr. Terry Knight on the show, Mr. Mark Wing, and Ms. Zafire Ortiz.
Meet the Experts: Terry Knight & Mark Wing
00:00:33
Speaker
So Mr. Terry Knight, would you like to introduce yourself? Hello, my name's Terry Knight. I'm the Tribal Historical Preservation Officer for you on your chart. Hi, good afternoon. My name's Mark Wing. I'm the intern for the Browns Canyon Project for the people you type.
00:00:54
Speaker
More than that, you also came out as one of our culturally knowledgeable people prior to working with Living Heritage Research Council. So Mark, Mark is all over this project. He's got all different sides. Hi, everyone. My name is Saka El-Roches. I'm with the Southern U Indian Tribe as Mag Park Coordinator.
Project Overview: Browns Canyon Ethnographic Research
00:01:13
Speaker
All right. So very excited to do this episode because this is a project that I'm working on. Normally, episodes aren't about our projects, so very excited.
00:01:24
Speaker
And this project is with Browns Canyon National Monument. It's funded by the Bureau of Land Management in cooperation with the Forest Service and also a portion of it was funded by the Colorado State Historical Fund grant.
00:01:43
Speaker
So basically, this project is about doing ethnographic research, looking at history and connections and use of resources like plants, animals, minerals, and connections to Browns Canyon National Monument, as well as to make recommendations to the BLM and the Forest Service about how that land should be used. And Browns Canyon National Monument, it's gorgeous.
00:02:13
Speaker
It's a beautiful area between that Salida and Buena Vista, as they say it, Colorado. And it goes along the Arkansas River, which is, I believe, the most run stretch of river in the United States, that portion through Browns Canyon.
Field Trips & Educational Contributions
00:02:31
Speaker
So it's very popular, it's very beautiful. And then up in the mountains, so in the forest overlooking the collegiate peaks,
00:02:39
Speaker
and overlooking some hot springs and it's just a gorgeous area for anyone that hasn't been out that way. But yeah, so this project we've had
00:02:49
Speaker
A good number of field trips at this point. We still have another one, so it's not complete yet, but we'll be here soon. And as a final part, as I mentioned already, the Colorado State Historical Fund, they provided funding on top of the BLM funds to have Mr. Mark Wing and Ms. Vanson Vicente come out as team members for Living Heritage Research Council and help us do
00:03:18
Speaker
this research as well as help us take the research and create a lesson plan and do some public outreach. So that's kind of a quick overview of the project. And now we're going to talk about basically what everybody thinks of the project. So let's start with Mr. Knight, who's giving me quite the face. And if you want to talk a little bit about
00:03:46
Speaker
your involvement in the projects and maybe your favorite part of the projects.
Exploring Traditional Ute Trails and Camps
00:03:56
Speaker
Favorite part? I just think that the Bronx Canyon National Monument, it's well within the youth area, traditional area.
00:04:14
Speaker
Before the roach really came in, the trail that came from Colorado Springs on the south side of South Park, coming through Hartzell. I was talking about Hartzell. That was a campsite, where the utes were coming on over into the Branch Canyon National Monument. I'm pretty sure that the roach that come
00:04:45
Speaker
On the mountain, going into Salida, another port that comes out into Univista, those are trails that Utes used a long time ago when they were going through there. Quite possibly, where we went, that there was a campground there on the east side and probably on the west side of the river where they crossed, because generally,
00:05:16
Speaker
people, the people would go somewhere from one side to another, migrate, and if there was a river there, they would generally camp close to the river and then go maybe stay a few days, fish or whatever, and then they would go across and then continue on from there either to go down into
00:05:41
Speaker
Just pass, and from there, if you don't go all the way down, you could go up over that pass into Gundison. What is that? What's the name of that pass? Monarch. Monarch pass comes from there, or if you want to go further north, you could go up to Leadville,
00:06:10
Speaker
and then go over on, what's that pass called? Going into Aspen, is it? Independence Pass? Yeah. And the other one of those passes at the bottom of that pass comes into Twin Lakes. That going over into the drainage that goes to Aspen.
00:06:39
Speaker
And so they would use those doses, some of the trails that they would use instead of going back north to... The front range? Huh? Instead of going back to the front range? Yeah. What's that pass north of Furplay? Their ski area, what does it call? Well, like on the way to Steamboat? Huh? On the way to Steamboat, you mean? Or wait? No. No, no, no, no. Um, Furplay.
00:07:09
Speaker
Anyway, those were some of the passes that they used to go north, but coming in, coming west, coming toward Buena Vista and then going into Salida, they would use, they're currently now probably, Highway, what's that, 24? And the gravel roads coming down into that.
00:07:37
Speaker
One park on the east side of the Arkansas River where a good part of the Brown's Canyon National Monument is, you know, they went through that all, you know, they used that to go back and forth depending on the seasons and the soldiers. I think that I don't know who
00:08:07
Speaker
control with that BLM or Forest Street or a lot of it is private land too. So that's something that we need to get identified and I don't know how much traffic goes through there and whether they really know or want to know that the huge
00:08:37
Speaker
I think we could go back and see. I don't know if there has been a good ecological survey in that whole area to find the sites or we need to find some more. Look at it some more and see what's available because you and the ones that went camping, was that you?
00:09:06
Speaker
Garrett and Richie are intern from Hopi and Alia. Yeah, so you need to, I haven't been to that campsite and I heard, I think somebody, one of you
00:09:34
Speaker
to was camping in mine.
Discovering Browns Canyon's Natural and Historical Significance
00:09:37
Speaker
I think we can now look at that again and see where it's at and possibly go to that side when we all camp. And it's interesting because she got, when we were coming out last time, there were two bull moose there. A young guy and an old guy and then we had a lot of elk.
00:10:03
Speaker
and a lot of bicorn sheep and deer that are in there. So depending on the season, that would be a good place to camp anywhere in that area because you have the animals that the utes used to use for food. So, you know, they won't be there. Sounds like a good time. Yeah. So what's been your favorite part so far?
00:10:30
Speaker
Terry's like, none of it. I think we mom. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think we all know why and we won't say why I'm on there, but yeah, Ruby Mountain, if that makes sense. Mark, what about you? Your favorite part? Favorite part is probably visiting some of the back country sites that we went on and seeing down.
00:10:53
Speaker
environment and what nature has to offer out there that our ancestral people explored and experienced in time when they were in that area. So it was really unique to see that that much of open land and open country that they enjoyed and they lived in
00:11:12
Speaker
They, you know, it was a self-sufficient type of land environment area for them. They have water, they have, you know, berries, they have shelter, they have food, game to hunt. And it was just interesting to see some of those deep area countries out there to explore it. And a lot of the sites that Mr. Knight took us to, you know, they were really interesting too. That was still there for, you know, historical
00:11:43
Speaker
for our new generation coming to be within the two tribes, the two new tribes to explore our youth and to see what our people left behind or how they lived and how they explored the area. They utilized nature to their advantage, you know, to live in those areas.
00:12:04
Speaker
So, and I think there's probably, since our tour through that area of Browns Canyon National Park isn't done, I think we got to see more than having, you know, the individuals share their information up there too. It was really interesting to bring it together to make a sense, meaning out of a lot of that information we got.
00:12:26
Speaker
in the hot springs, I really liked that. I never knew that there are many hot springs in that area existed and that people now, sadly, none of our youth tribes own or are open to that, but it's preserved by other nationalities for us to utilize it. But we got to experience that area, two hot springs, and a few of them, and we've experienced feeling the water and getting into the water with other people, so it was good.
00:12:57
Speaker
And then just being up there in the surrounding areas too, the quietness, the nature and stuff. That was the fun part of it. Yeah. I thought you were going to mention your river trip. And going down. Yeah, the river trip was great down Arkansas River. It was a great trip on rafting we did in spite of the rain. A few times we got to the end.
00:13:26
Speaker
It was a lot of fun, exciting rapids in there. We went in the middle of the summer towards the fall, so the water level wasn't as high as what the river guide told us that it was. It was probably in early spring. It was probably like eight to ten feet in where we were at on the river.
00:13:49
Speaker
some areas they had some water marks where the rivers were running early spring so he said it was getting pretty high up there but when we went through there was some areas that were kind of low and he had to push the boat but most of it was riding so it was pretty neat to experience that. So I'm guessing Sapphire your favorite part is still to come. Yes I'm
00:14:17
Speaker
waiting patiently to see all these attractions that happen at Rams Canyon. I do know that Cassandra Tenzio speaks highly of it and she enjoys going to any hot springs. It's something I want to see.
00:14:35
Speaker
I guess, I guess somebody can't say like a zoom meeting is their favorite part. Yeah. No, we're excited to have you and to go to the hot Springs and Casey, man, she's brave. She does the like hot cold plunge. Okay. So what about, I don't know for any of the three of you, has there been like a learning moment for you that kind of stands out?
00:15:05
Speaker
The whole scene to me, I never knew about the Bronx Canyon.
The Hidden History of Browns Canyon
00:15:10
Speaker
I never knew what it was. Nobody ever talked about it. And I wanted to go. It was interesting to see part of that. That part of Colorado that I have never seen, I've been through almost all of it. But that part, I never went to it. I never heard about it.
00:15:35
Speaker
Of course, it's been right in with the traditional Roman area of the Ute people. I've heard, read something about where some of the people came down through Fair Play Down Highway 285 and Highway 24 coming from
00:16:05
Speaker
Colorado Springs. And I've been through on that highway and I've never thought about, you know, the people going through there. But I heard about the site over there south of Hartsall. But I never knew anything about Brown's Canyon. And I almost wondered where even coming down on
00:16:38
Speaker
University, it never dawned on me. But then that one, you all said, we're gonna go to Browns Canyon. Okay, Mark, what about you learning moments throughout this experience? Having my learning moments would be pretty much seeing the place and understanding and hearing that type of environment and nature
00:17:09
Speaker
is established there by our ancestral land, our ancestral people, which we have never known. And going back into history and time, I think a lot of our youth people, the reason why it's unknown to no one, and just knowing to, I guess, individuals that knew these sites and knew the locations, but it was never written, it was never
00:17:35
Speaker
exposed to the public because of the confidentiality of these youth people that had that strong belief not to share their history and their culture and their tradition with anyone outside the tribe. So I think that's why a lot of that area is never mentioned before.
00:17:56
Speaker
And even to our new generations, they've never mentioned that no more because our elders told us, you know, don't go into these areas because they're ancestral lands and
00:18:08
Speaker
They talked about you may bring something back to the people that's not good. So leave those areas alone. Don't wander around out there because you're going to see something or you might bring something back and that's going to hurt the people. That's what they told us when we used to wander around through the mountains and do different things. They used to tell us that.
00:18:30
Speaker
So I think that's probably where it came from, but somehow someone went up into that area and actually stumbled up on some of these sites and that's how they became reality.
00:18:46
Speaker
areas, like a lot of the landowners, land buyers, they bought these lands. They probably never knew that them sites were there either until they went to start claiming their landmarks and whatnot. They stumbled across it and said, hey, this item's here. Where did it come from? That's where archaeology came in and started looking at different artifacts, finding a lot of signs, a lot of different
00:19:11
Speaker
landmarks and that's how it became and said you know who was here before there was land there was life here before so that's where
00:19:20
Speaker
Archaeology started writing it down and saying and researching and going back in time and discovering that some of the artifacts and some of the tools and stuff, they started dating them back into time of where they might think that it came back in so many thousands of years ago. So then it came back to that.
00:19:42
Speaker
what is it called? Native tribes that were in the area. So it came back to the Yutian people. And then that's how they claimed that it's Yut people, Yut land. But you know, that's where I think that it came from because a lot of Yut people, elders never told us nothing. And they only told us what they wanted us to learn and know that's it.
00:20:05
Speaker
And anything else they knew, they never talked to about it. They never did it because when we asked, they would say, you know, you don't need to know about it. Leave it alone or don't talk about it, you know. But you know, it's something like that. And then we had to find out ourselves whether it was at that time, a young age or into the future. Like now, you know, we're in
00:20:26
Speaker
our adult life, and we're finding out that these areas are existed. But who knows? Our ancestors, our elders probably knew it existed, but they never told us about it. Because, you know, our grandfathers, our grandmothers, our aunts have photos up in those areas, but they never shared nothing with us about who that is. But they didn't share up to generation, generation to our time now.
00:20:52
Speaker
you know, like any other history, like people that aren't native or more like Anglo people, they have history and time of where their families existed and came from, and it's all written and who their families and stuff are, and what they did, how they lived, what they used, how their language was. But now in the youth people, it was never done that way. Now we're finding out that,
00:21:19
Speaker
This was their land. This was where they were at. This is where they lived, and this is how they lived, and we're finding that out now.
00:21:27
Speaker
to what's out there too. And it was really interesting. That was my learning experience, seeing it. I've traveled through that area. All I knew, my grandparents tell me that all they told me was that road that goes through there was the Ute Trail, that's all they told me. But they didn't tell me that the Utes camped here, the Utes lived here, the Utes, they didn't say, they just said it was the Ute Trail.
00:21:52
Speaker
You know, that's all they said. So when we go to Denver, they would say, which way are you going to go? And I would say, go to the Utah. They knew where we were going to go through Fair Plain up to there. That's all they knew. That's all we knew about. But, you know, after exploring the Browns Canyon National Park, they had a lot to offer.
00:22:12
Speaker
a lot to offer, a lot to see, and a lot to experience out there to, you know, feel that the presence of the ancestral people out there too and the quietness and then the environment.
00:22:24
Speaker
And, you know, it was something new and interesting when I first explored that area and seeing what I'd seen. And what Terry Knight was talking about, you know, experiencing some of those sights, you know, and I heard him talk about it. And I was like, I want to go see that, you know, and I experienced that. I got to see it. I got to walk that land with him and, you know,
00:22:47
Speaker
and experienced that with him. And he shared a few things with us with me when I was out there. And it was interesting. Something that I'll carry within myself into the future to understand how his thoughts and how his mindset was around that area and what we experienced together was really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's not fair.
00:23:13
Speaker
for your work in general, like in this position and like going out on these types of projects, like what have been learning moments for you? I would just say knowing where the youths have traveled and how they didn't leave many things on the ground and how they survived.
Cultural Education and Preservation for the Future
00:23:34
Speaker
When they moved, it was for the seasons or during changes of time and learning
00:23:42
Speaker
These things have also taught me to teach my children about where we are and where we've come from. And being in this job has brought a greater passion to understanding our ancestors and my language, which I am trying to learn. It's a hard one. But I think it's great because it brings the past into the present for many people and
00:24:12
Speaker
In the past, we've tried to erase history. And so when we find new sites, it helps others understand the importance of not disrupting, vandalizing, or just basically respecting the area. And sometimes people don't understand that you aren't supposed to touch things. And certain things you touch, someone's going to follow you back.
00:24:40
Speaker
And I would just say like it's been a great experience meeting Terry Knight, working with him on a couple projects and just. Yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
I love how I'm asking all of you what you've learned when, like, obviously what I've learned is what I learned from all of you. You know what I mean? Like, just, like, getting to go out with you guys and learn and, like, be in these incredible places. It's just a privilege, you know? Like, get to go to these places and sit with Mr. Knight and hear stories, and it's an honor. And... So what are you gonna do when I retire? Cry myself to sleep? I don't know.
00:25:27
Speaker
It's going to be sad, Terry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna hold you to it. We've got it on tape. I do know one thing. The youths did like to walk. Yeah. The mountains and through the valleys and those hikes are crazy. Yeah. The original like Colorado hikers, you know, my God. Yeah. See you'd stuff in all kinds of places. Although like you said,
00:25:56
Speaker
the use for the original leave no trace. So you also kind of don't see things anywhere. And I still use that, I still use that, um, that method for leave no trace behind when we do our use count or any type of use activity.
00:26:12
Speaker
So when we go to a site or even a room or anywhere we go with kids and we do projects or we do an activity, I always tell that story of where people never leave a site behind, clean after yourself, make sure you leave the place the way you left it, you know, that way you leave no trace behind.
00:26:37
Speaker
and to them to get them to understand their use of those traditional ways of life. And we do that all the time in our work. So it works, they understand. Yeah. Yeah. Annoy all the future archaeologists because there's nothing on the ground. And I think another thing too is bringing our youth to those areas would be really neat too. The one site up there that landowner wanted
00:27:07
Speaker
have us come up and visit her site for a couple of days with the youth from Yip Mountain. And I still haven't got to get that opportunity to make plans. So hopefully maybe next summer we could be able to do that just to be on her area, on her Rachui to do that. But we want to take care of the Browns Canyon.
00:27:28
Speaker
service and project first before I think. That's what I'm thinking. We need to care first before we even go back into that area. Yeah. Decidable. Yeah. But it would be also good to bring other people into that area too. From the tribe, not just us, but other people let them know.
00:27:47
Speaker
Because we did, me and Terry had some younger adults come to us and say, I want to go. And when we're taking kids and elders, they're like, where are they going? Where are you guys going? And they want to go when they want to learn. So a lot of them, like we all said, they rarely know that sites are out there like that. And they want to be interested in learning. Because I think that's going to be our generation too, new generation to know that. What's up, dude?
00:28:17
Speaker
And then it was really unique too because the trails, the hikes, and I think that's probably what kept our youth people healthy. And I guess like, say like it would be really interesting today's world of life. I mean, we got a lot of stuff available to us that wasn't available to our elders at that time and our ancestral people. And that's what made their life expand short.
00:28:46
Speaker
But just thinking that if we had that same life of going down to the river, packing water back every day, going out and finding wood every day, and going out to hunt every day on foot, on horseback, we'd be always out.
00:29:02
Speaker
that would really cut down on our obesity of our people and our health and actually eating natural foods from the earth and being natural organic rather than buying processed food from stores. And I think that's what's really affecting our people now. It's native people with all these illnesses they have that are coming up that we have to cope with and we have family members that are in that situation. But I think, you know, that's what kind of like
00:29:31
Speaker
I always think about that I think if it was like that dish this time of the year we would have a lot of elders and our kids and our people live longer lives if we lived if we have what we had here but actually eating natural organic foods and stuff that processed food because I think that processed food brings a lot of illnesses and a lot of different healthy shoes and stuff to our people
00:29:56
Speaker
and then just having the grocery store people to go get meat, milk, whatever, you know, we could, back that time you had to milk a cow and we had to go or something. And milk and dairy wasn't really our food too. And that's why a lot of us are not really, dairy food don't get along with those two as natives. Cause that wasn't, yeah, that wasn't part of our food source, but I think that would be good. I mean, just thoughts that I had when I was out there.
00:30:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and you guys have such good, like, you know, like raspberries and currants and all kinds of like delicious foods up in the mountains. I remember the, when we did go that camping trip, we just literally spent the entire time like pulling berries up. It was so good. But what would you recommend to other ethnographers, people who do work like
Advice for Agencies on Collaboration
00:30:53
Speaker
me?
00:30:53
Speaker
or archaeologists or like the BLM or the Forest Service about how they can do like these types of projects better. Like, so Terry, what advice would you give to Altamerica that you work with about how they could do, you know, like ethnographic projects and working, you know, consultation work with you guys better?
00:31:19
Speaker
We could do the same, talk the same way. We have to use the same English language, but it has to be used in a different context. Because American language, one word has about three different meanings. Maybe it's European or whatever. We have to find out who are we going to talk to, who are we going to present this to.
00:31:47
Speaker
and see just how they are. What can they understand what's being said? Because he just said, like I did, and then they want to get the wrong idea. These people had this, they had that, whatever. So like you said, just kind of hold that back. I think we want to make that presentation, whatever, to where they can understand it.
00:32:16
Speaker
what we're saying. We can't be like a white man, white man teacher to say, say something and expect them to know what we're talking about. That's what we went through in school. The educators had their language and we had to understand what they're saying coming from grade one all the way up to high school graduation and further on.
00:32:44
Speaker
but then you start to learn the difference of the context of the material that you're talking about. So I think we have to, I don't know how to talk white men anymore sometimes, we have to make it so that these people understand, because we're getting to a different area, that place and other places where we want people to know
00:33:14
Speaker
what we're saying, why, who we are, because they have to know who's what, when, and where. Kelly was asking me, we have a site here, what is it? We stopped there and looked at it. She said, there's this one here, and another one over here, and looked at it. I said, did you bring people here? Yeah, we don't know what it is. And I'm walking around.
00:33:47
Speaker
This is the campsite, where the people that came, when they had their alcoteer or whatever, she brought them over here, and this is where the process did. And she could use the food right here or here. And she said, like anybody else, how'd she know that? I said, there's same sites down there by Colorado Springs on the opinion canyon. The same sites are down there, where they processed these animals.
00:34:18
Speaker
right here, and they camped close to it. And it's not right on the creek. It's a waste from the creek, so when they keep their animals, it could bring them up in a process, and that's it. And the other side, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. They're identical. I said, this is what they did. She said, oh, gosh, what do you know what it was? I said, I may be wrong.
00:34:50
Speaker
Because just down there, the same things are down there. What the youth used to count was that they have the same thing. But if you get these old trees off of there, clean it up, then they'll come up. You can see it. Because there were some old dead trees laying on there. They'll clean it up and then you'll see.
00:35:12
Speaker
that we can reinforce and when we bring, especially our younger adults or whatever, we don't have to show them that. And we need the reports to follow that up. And now we can get that and hopefully education can work with us and they can make copies of it and have it. I don't know if them little kids are gonna read it,
00:35:42
Speaker
They'll have it on record, and we'll have it in my office. We'll have our miniature library, our research library. We can have all that here, too. So we need to establish ourselves, the use for both. A lot of people
00:36:19
Speaker
also planes people, plane stripes, but nobody really recognizes us for that. They say we're not stripes, but we're. We understand, somehow
Interpreting Rock Art and Spiritual Connections
00:36:30
Speaker
we understand, especially the mawachi dot, the way that the planes in the ex-dupe
00:36:45
Speaker
you know, and it's basically the same thing, basically the same thing. So we can look at these sites and tell whoever's there, you know, these are, this is what it is, and how it is, and whatever. It's not just like, well, this is it. We'll find out more coming from
00:37:13
Speaker
But that was this, and this is how it is, you know, talking about that. So, initially, we didn't say that. We just went over there and looked at it and said, wow. But now we think about, you know, talking about this, all this rock art stuff. I was over there looking at this person and talking about rock art and all the figures, and I said,
00:37:41
Speaker
They were talking about artists. I said, artists, they paint and do things, do things. And they said, where did the artists, did the rocker, where did they get these figures from? They looked up and I said, I'm gonna say something. I said, these people were in contact with the spiritual things, the spiritual world.
00:38:11
Speaker
Look at this, this figure. It's not human. You'll find it here. And I said, and I said, I'm going to say this and I might live to regret it, but those people come from the start and these people seeing them, seeing them or the spiritual come to them, they draw them. And so in their idea, their mind, they draw this
00:38:40
Speaker
figures, a rock art, they're not from here. Why did they use that? I said, I'm saying they were leaving a message that these people came from the stars. And somehow they understood that in order to come from the stars, they had to know how to get back, their starships, whatever.
00:39:05
Speaker
You know, they had the technology to do that. And these artists, they understood that. So they drawn these figures, leaving a message for people to look at and doubt that someday in the future, those things are going to come back. And those people, those figures that are in their rock art, they're going to come back. That's a message they love for the future.
00:39:34
Speaker
I said, I might be wrong, but I'm just thinking about that idea that's come to my mind. Because where did they find this, you know, and these figures with this and that, whatever. Where did they come from? They'd have to see it to draw it forever. And why are they doing that? What did they think that? I would think that it would be a message that if they did come worse somehow,
00:40:08
Speaker
He said, you know, I'm here, and I'm going to come back a million years from now or whatever, a thousand years from now. And that guy understood and said, okay, Adios, sarnara, and put this picture on that rock. It's a message that these people came, they're here, and they're going to come back. Sometimes I said, oh, no.
00:40:37
Speaker
So Luke's sitting there saying, I can see his thing going. I said, but that's just an idea I have. Because I seek basic human personality, whatever, except that. That's why the regular normal people don't quite are not in tune with the artist. Even today, the artists are not in tune with them.
00:41:08
Speaker
We're back in the door, trying to tell a message that these people are going to come back. Because they have the technology to go back and forth. Oh, which reminds me, maybe that's why more and more you see silence, UFO silence. So maybe they're coming out and saying, maybe they got lost. Where was their side at? Where was it?
00:41:35
Speaker
Maybe it's, maybe we're getting close to that time when it will come around. So maybe I'll be out there in a boomy somewhere. They may hand me some stuff. Here, put my picture on a rock. I said, okay. So, but there's something I said, could be a possibility. I said, could be a possibility. You know, or somebody might say, I've truly lost it. Oops, I may have two.
00:42:12
Speaker
not just close minded. And I said, just a thought, I said, just a thought. Because we were looking at rock art in that video we had. And we're characters on that rock art. So where do you find that? And they didn't have hallucinogenic drugs back
00:42:42
Speaker
They did, but they didn't use it for that. So, just something I thought I'd throw in there. Might think about it. But if you try to tell Cristo and them guys, they go look at you and say, are you all right? What did you have for lunch over there? And if you tell them, I said so, they're going to say, I don't know.
00:43:13
Speaker
or you guys, or they might say, hey, I think you're right. What else is there? What other proof or whatever? What else is there that says where they came from? Just I thought, I don't know if you're in the town, but just hold on to it for a while and see what they think. You know how they are.
00:43:39
Speaker
I think so. Maybe so. I don't know. Maybe so. So Mark, what advice would you have for people working on these projects and in the consultation with tribes?
Consultation with Archaeologists & Respecting Tribal Input
00:43:54
Speaker
I guess be more open to the tribes and be more
00:44:06
Speaker
if they be fine or psyched is contacting the historical preservation offices and officers and that's to prior to going in and doing any other types of research or discover any type of reporting of it and then I guess it's just documenting everything and then having the researchers and
00:44:35
Speaker
individual study in the area to be aware and have the, I guess, that approval of the youth tribes team on what they're doing and how the youth tribes approve those areas and information they're sharing outside the area or with the public before sharing, getting information if it's okay from the youth tribes before they do anything like that. If they do find artifacts and stuff like
00:45:25
Speaker
I believe what I would tell them is the way the youth smoked was
00:45:34
Speaker
through the seasons and many of the plants that we harvested may not be in those locations that they were before because they are over harvested or they're contaminated and many of them don't have fruit certain times a year due to climate change and if it was a drought season and that they need to understand the vitality that the land holds for the use and many people, not just the use, the animals, water, everything.
00:46:04
Speaker
What we say to them is to be taken into confidentiality. It's not to be spoken outside of the group or to everyone else. It's what we felt safe telling the agencies while we were in consultations that they need to be very sensitive with the knowledge that elders have and just how they walk on the land where the sites are. I would say
00:46:34
Speaker
the understanding that the way Native Americans see things of you and perspectives, many the other societies don't. They only see a one way path where we see many paths and don't just stick to one. We have to have an open mind because it's not the same. There are other things that we believe in. There are other areas that people would
00:47:04
Speaker
wouldn't believe, I would say. All right. Well, we are basically at time. Um, it's amazing how quickly it always goes, but was there any like last thoughts that anybody wanted to share? Like burning urge to tell the public one thing or you already said it all. Well,
00:47:28
Speaker
In order for people to migrate or go into a different area, I said for a youth sick, they just didn't go in there. They'd have to have Lisa Scott, or they have to have an idea of where they're going. And they had to have this other idea or something in their mind that there was something good up there, somewhere up there, followed up.
00:47:58
Speaker
The instinct, the color instincts, all of that. Of course, the animals already made trials, whatever, to the water holes, the springs, just follow that. But they have to have something in their thinking, mentally, whatever, that tells them to keep going, go over there. And they can say, well, they're just instincts, just a human nature. Yeah, but, you know,
00:48:27
Speaker
It had to have some sort of structure or whatever or something there that makes them. You may think about it, but it's something that makes them start to actually go in. Maybe a vision or a dream or maybe there was one or a few people that looked in the sky and seen something.
00:48:55
Speaker
Not many people look at what's going on up there. We're too busy over here. What's here? We're supposed to, but every once in a while, we have to look up, see something up there. So that gives that individual an idea, something that tells them, this is good, this is bad, that part of
00:49:27
Speaker
It's just my mind playing tricks on me when all the time it may be something real and we don't want to acknowledge it because I don't want to tell her because she might look at me and say, she might get close to me.
00:49:48
Speaker
would have been drinking, would have been smoking. And I'll say, here, try some of it. But see, that's the kind of people that have the, they can say, to them it's real. And some of my relations are kind of like that too. They talk about the mistake. In the past, not too much now, in the past these people would come to me
00:50:17
Speaker
And they say, oh, I'm going to tell you what I've seen, or the thought I had, or the stream, or whatever. And they would talk about weird things. But I would sit and listen to them like, huh? So I'd tell somebody else, who that guy who was talking to that woman was saying this? And they said, don't believe in those things. That person's crazy.
00:50:42
Speaker
The crazy ones have a tendency to come see me talking to me now. So that's what I kind of remember what they were saying, what they seen, what they felt, that they couldn't tell anybody else. That's why the confidentiality comes in. They say, you don't want to listen to that person that thinks they're crazy. What the crazy people like to come and talk to
00:51:24
Speaker
intellectually to hear them and see because there's other places, other sites, other things that will say that they're seen out there up here. They're not the only ones. You heard and see. Maybe you felt it yourself or seen it yourself. You say, oh, maybe it's just a falling star or whatever. It's just the
00:51:58
Speaker
energy syndrome, and whatever the Sun, whatever we call that, whatever that happens on the Sun, that sends our energy out to all the planets, that they do things, and the Moon has the same thing, same effect. So if we're not aware of that, then we're like walking with blunders on
00:52:25
Speaker
but we only see here. We may feel something, but we don't want to see. I don't know why. I don't mind looking out and seeing this, but seeing this, oh, okay. I think sometimes we're talking about these signs forever.
Preserving Cultural Knowledge & Ancestral Sites
00:52:44
Speaker
Who did this? Why was it? And how did they use it? Then we get into an area that has not really been
00:52:59
Speaker
age or local owner that understand these things. But today, it's not on a computer then. But then you look at some of that stuff on the computer, especially the cartoons. I like to watch cartoons sometimes, I think. Whoever put these cartoons together, they have to have some kind of imagination. And my favorite one is
00:53:30
Speaker
They have that Spongebob picture on their wall. Yeah, they have to have some imagination to put this all together and sell it. I'm thinking, I wonder who these people are. I want to be able to talk to them. Maybe they're crazy too. I don't know. We're interested in how these things happen.
00:53:59
Speaker
I would say for everyone to walk with a purpose, watch what you touch, and not everything makes you be unburied. So, you know, stay on paths that you're supposed to and don't wander off. There's no reason for our ancestors to be dug up and, you know, mistreated. So it's
00:54:22
Speaker
all in respect. People wouldn't want us to go into cemeteries and do the same to their relatives. Well, I can't believe we got through this whole episode without ever mentioning the Secretary of the Interior's visit. Nobody mentioned that as their favorite thing.
00:54:39
Speaker
Oh, shit. I thought I was going to mention it, but I wouldn't share if we were
Significance of Secretary Deb Holland's Visit
00:54:45
Speaker
able to mention it. Well, now we can. It was confidential until they publicly announced it, but then once they announced it, then we're OK. And that would be documented into what the recording is about, too, to mention that she was there visiting, that we had experienced hype with her in that area to be able to see what her thoughts were.
00:55:09
Speaker
Yeah, so if you want to say something you can say something. It was interesting to see Deb Holland there.
00:55:19
Speaker
and getting invited there and sharing our thoughts with her and our concerns for our youth people. And she was there to inspire our presence and as well as the different colleagues from different agencies there to have her support our thoughts and our needs and our wants for our youth people. And hopefully that, you know, her visiting that area and hearing what she heard from
00:55:47
Speaker
the individuals that were there and represented the tribes, that she would move forward with a lot of those accomplishments and have them for our future tribal members that are wanting to go in that area or want to do research on that area.
00:56:03
Speaker
that she has awareness of it. And I believe she was there of looking at some of the national park areas in the state of Colorado to do a little bit of preserving them or protecting them. So any thoughts and ideas she had would be recommended that going back to our ancestral areas to respect the people that lived there and that were there and that are still there to respect that environment. All right.
00:56:32
Speaker
Well, thank you guys. Thank you. Always fun when we get to do one in person. Yeah, I appreciate everybody sharing all your thoughts today.
00:56:42
Speaker
Also just wanted to add a quick huge thank you to Woods Canyon Archaeological Consultants for letting us record this episode in their conference room and letting me use their conference room for all sorts of things and just being overall awesome and helpful. So thank you Woods Canyon Archaeological Consultants.
00:57:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Heritage Voices podcast.
Conclusion and Appreciation
00:57:12
Speaker
You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com slash Heritage Voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google Play Music Store. Also, please share with your friends or write us a review. Sharing and reviewing helps more people find the show and gets the perspectives of Heritage Voices amazing guests out there into the world.
00:57:32
Speaker
No, we just need more of that in anthropology and land management. If you have any more questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org. If you'd like to volunteer to be on the show as a guest or even a co-host, reach out to me as well, Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org.
00:57:50
Speaker
You can also follow more of what I'm doing on Facebook at Living Heritage Anthropology and the nonprofit Living Heritage Research Council, or on Twitter at LivingHeritageA. As always, huge thank you to Liable Enqua and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our incredible logo.
00:58:14
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.