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Nuxawiš: unwilling to give up - Ep 87
584 Plays4 months ago
On today’s episode, Jessica talks with Maura Sullivan (PhD student in Linguistics at Tulane University; Irish-American, Chumash and Mexican heritage, and an enrolled member of the Coastal Band of the Chumash Nation). Maura gives Jessica a crash course in many different language topics such as the difference between language work and linguistics, what is a minoritized language, and how you can revive a language in ways other than with fluent speakers (such as the Breath of Life program). She emphasizes the need for structural changes to support language work, but also some ways that we can all be better relatives and give back on an individual level. Maura also described varying creative methods to support language work, including how she incorporates her art, provides intra-community language materials, as well as making the Šmuwič language more visible where appropriate.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/heritagevoices/87
Links
- Heritage Voices on the APN
- Darrell R. Kipp writing “Encouragement, Guidance, Insights, and Lessons Learned for Native Language Activists Developing Their Own Tribal Language Programs”Breath of Life Program
- Decolonizing Methodologies: Research and Indigenous Peoples, Book by Linda Tuhiwai SmithCoLang
- Encouragement, Guidance, Insights, and Lessons Learned for Native Language Activists Developing their Own Tribal Language Programs report by Darrell R. Kipp
- Appalachians against pipelines: https://www.facebook.com/appalachiansagainstpipelines/; https://www.aapsolidarity.org/ ; @stopthemvp (twitter); @ appalachiansagainstpipelines (Instagram)
- American Routes Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Acknowledgement
00:00:01
Speaker
you're listening to the archaeology podcast network
00:00:10
Speaker
to heritage voices episode eighty seven i'm jessica a quinto and i'm your host and today we are talking about new hawish unwilling to give up Before we begin, I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the Nooch, or Ute People's Treaty Lands, the Dneita, and the ancestral Puebloan homeland.
Meet Maura Sullivan: Linguist and Language Advocate
00:00:29
Speaker
Today, we have Maura Sullivan on the show. Maura, who uses she-her pronouns, is a linguist at heart, fascinated by everything people do with their languages, from accents to slang and dialects, but she mostly focuses this interest as a language worker for her community, Chumash or Shmooich, in so-called Southern California. Along with being a language worker, Maura is also a craftsman and works on cords, baskets, and jewelry. She is also active in sacred lands protection and identifies as an indigenous anarchist.
00:00:59
Speaker
She is of mixed Irish-American, Chumash, and Mexican heritage, and an enrolled member of the coastal band of the Chumash Nation. For the last six years, she has been working on her PhD in linguistics at Tulane University in Bulbansha, New Orleans, unceded homelands of many Gulf South people, including the Atakapa, Ishak, Homa, Choctaw, and many others, and cherishes the time she was a guest here. learning how to be a better relative on someone else's homelands. So welcome to the show, Maura.
00:01:30
Speaker
ah kakinain thank you haku machioishsh moakakti a cup ah knain he kishtiaw wheel he kiaklu he shmu um today we're going to talk us two we're going to talk about ah shmmoitch language thank you I love that.
The Breath of Life Program and Language Learning
00:01:48
Speaker
All right. So yeah, I'm so excited to have this conversation. We don't get to have as many language focused guests on this podcast as as I'd like. And I always heard such great things about you from, from my colleague who recommended you. So very excited to have this conversation and to get us started. What got you into this, this field?
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, quite literally I had a friend. I always loved thinking about this. We were getting food in a buffet line at a department of, at that time it was called Department of Fish and Game in California. Now we call it Department of Fish and Wildlife. So we were in line at a buffet and I was talking about. in being interested in the language. And this was 14 years ago. So in 2010, I started getting interested in language. um At that time, people in my community were already kind of leading the way. And then, yeah, my really good friend, Gino Altamirano, he's also a Chumash, he's Tolhini from the North. And he said, oh yeah, you should do Breath of Life. You should apply for a scholarship. um So Breath of Life is a gathering out of California for people like us who do not have elder speakers.
00:03:00
Speaker
and it's working with archives and recordings. Interesting. Do you mind if I ask you to and to explain that one a little bit more? Like the breath of life and what that like how they do that? Yeah, so Breath of Life is out of Ohlone homelands um out of UC Berkeley, and it's a big gathering really focusing on kind of the giving back or the reparations. I would consider it a reparations project because it's bringing ah native people into the archival spaces to give them material, teach them how to work with archives, tell them
00:03:42
Speaker
you know, teach them about little lessons here and there about linguistics. um And so that's really when I started learning about this thing called linguistics. So um in my undergrad, I studied at UC Berkeley, I studied art history and Native American studies. And then in community college, I was always really fascinated by archaeology and anthropology. um And I knew about linguistics as one of the sub fields, but it just was kind of a thing that, you know, I think this is an issue we deal with in linguistics is that like most people don't even know that we're a thing.
Creative Language Solutions and Projects
00:04:15
Speaker
So that's when I really started learning more and hearing about
00:04:18
Speaker
more specifically the subfields of linguistics being phonetics, phonology, syntax, morphology, pragmatics, and semantics are kind of like the general fields that we have. And so they were teaching us little mini lessons about, you know, This is what the sounds are of your language. So that's phonetics. This is what the grammar is. This is how you put sentences together. That's syntax. So I just started to learn more and just kept thinking, gosh, actually, this is its own language. Linguistics is a language that I actually have to learn in order to pursue reading and learning about Chumash languages.
00:04:59
Speaker
Interesting. So from there, from this breath of life experience, what were some other major learning or or like aha moments along this journey? Yeah. I like to joke that I'm like a breath of life success story because Yeah, like the atmosphere is really inspiring. I think with COVID, we lost a lot of that in-person energy you get from meeting other language workers. So yeah, I was really fortunate at that time for a few years in a row, I was going to these gatherings and yeah, those were times that really piqued my interest and my passion around what it takes to just bring language into my everyday life.
00:05:46
Speaker
Although in my dissertation, I did a close study of archives, as well as how to make archives more accessible. I think the real jewel within that work the last six years has been, what does it take to inspire people to actually use their languages every day? So as much as we can have the best programs or the best technology or the best apps, It's really about that inner drive. So that's kind of been more of a like passion project for me now. Yeah. And what have you, if you don't mind me asking, um what have you found about that? I don't know. Like what have you taken away on that topic?
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a few. I think that with my project, I really showed that like a sustained study of archival research is a legitimate way to learn language. Like a lot of people within the indigenous language sustainability movement, you know, we talk about like immersion and like being around speakers is like, yeah, that is the ideal, but a lot of us don't have that. So I kind of created my own learning really like I was reading these old stories and then kind of bringing my art into it so I taught myself how to do lino cut kind of as a way to like deal with the stresses of graduate school before I got into art history I almost did studio art and so yeah here and there I've always just
00:07:14
Speaker
done art. And so with my lino cuts, I was actually doing like I would pick a word. So it was like kind of a long sustained carving out looking at the word, talking about the word. So that was really fun to me. I think that that is something I i definitely want to pursue more is slow projects, not so much, you know, in comparison to like video or audio, like doing things that are very hands-on that you have to kind of be really close with. I think that I found that to be a good way to bring in language work. Yeah. You'll definitely have to, I mean, if you're, if you're open to it, share some, some pictures maybe of your lino cut and how you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I have one I use is u ali which means strength. So usal means strong.
00:08:08
Speaker
But then when you add that little piece at the end, u ali it means strength. So that just, yeah, playing with the language, finding cool things. I think another thing I've been really inspired by is like language buddies. So like finding a friend or I do this a lot with my mom where we will like exchange voice memos. or we will take pictures of things and look them up. so Just finding ways to get people excited about their languages. Years ago, I started a project with some other language workers called The Language Net. I'm actually thinking of like kind of reviving it. and That was like a platform pre-Zoom where we're just using a Google Sites page and just trying to
00:08:53
Speaker
get language workers together to talk because it can be like really lonely work when we're just in our communities but like when we come together and get to share successes and struggles. So that side of it I think is another project that's always been on the back burner for me.
Language Visibility in Media and ICML Insights
00:09:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. Have there been moments where you've seen like really creative solutions that that some of the other language workers have done?
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I got to meet the woman that worked on the Comanche language for the Predator movie. And like, who yeah that was like a super, like, exciting moment for all of us. Like, she's a very long time language worker. And like, that was exciting. And then I think for all of us to see like, I don't know yeah to see our languages out there, even though I'm not Comanche like I was just excited to see their language out there and then I think it also raises awareness in non native communities that we have languages I mean there's so many different
00:10:03
Speaker
steps that we're trying to take in order to have like visibility and respect for our communities and our cultures that were not something in the past. And I think that's what was exciting to me about being on this podcast to really bring a more personal side to language work that like, yeah, we're all over the world and we're we're all working really hard on working on our languages. Yeah. So what have been some, some highlights of those efforts over the years? Yeah, I think what's really on my mind last summer in 2023, I got to go to Wales for the ICML. Awesome. Yeah, so that was the International Conference on Minoritized Languages. Can you can you explain what a minoritized language is? i'm I am not familiar with that term.
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah, so in the European context, that is the way that they describe languages that are not as robust or maybe they are not majority languages. So English, Spanish, French. So the ICML happens every two years all around Europe. And I think for me, as an and indigenous North American language worker, I've always looked towards Basque, which they actually call Uskara and Gaelic. These are really key examples of language sustainability that we look to. but So being able to be there and and be on site in Camarthen, Wales, where like the whole city has majority Welsh language signage.
00:11:48
Speaker
And that was really exciting for me. And actually, I came back to California, I did a presentation with the Breath of Life community folks where I was like, are you guys interested in that? Like, what would that be like for your city to have, you know, i and it really kind of, yeah you know, we're here and there about it. Like, some people don't really want their language out there like that. And some people do. So I think that was really just special for me. So next year it's going to be held in Colombia, which is going to be the first time it's going to be outside of Europe.
Global Language Rights and Infrastructure
00:12:22
Speaker
Hmm. Okay. Why do you think there's that? Well, that's a, that's a bigger question maybe for another day about why, why it'd be the first time outside of Europe. But
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there was just people there that are like I was one of the only people from North America and I just I was told about it. So I did my field work at Smithsonian and I met a woman from Isle of Man who was working on Gilk, which is the minx language. So that's how I ended up in that situation. I would have otherwise never even been there. And I think it did kind of push people. And there was kind of this idea of like, yeah, this world, you know, world languages, like what are we doing? We might as well work together, you know? So then there was someone from Colombia. It has been and kind of a push that they're like, let's move the conference. So, yeah.
00:13:16
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. Brings in more of that like settler colonial element to the, to the conversation on language. I mean, because like, you know, like Romani, for example, right? Romani, Roma. you know, like it's not necessarily that there's like a colonial aspect there. So yeah, that, that minoritized concept makes sense, but, but yeah, but they're, if they're ignoring that other element, that's, that'd be an interesting thing. And so did you notice that there was like a difference between the the conversations that were happening at that conference versus like the ones that you were having
00:13:56
Speaker
you know back home or or with linguists here in the US then? Yeah, I think the thing I took away from it was like infrastructure. so like on the legal or governmental basis, there's a lot more respect for language rights. Norway has the Norwegian Language Act. it's the the The legal case of BASC is very interesting because BASC speakers span Spain and France.
00:14:27
Speaker
Right. Right. And I just have this kind of special connection to BASC because years ago I was part of a summer program to learn field methods and the language we used was BASC. And so I've been friends with a BASC linguist for many years. And yeah, we just kind of had this affinity as ocean people too. But the legal case in like In France, yeah there are no legal rights for Ouscata translators in court, but in Spain, they do. It's really interesting. and like And then over here in the US, like I think that around Mauna Kea, there was a lot of attention for the Hawaiian folks, because Hawaiians were actually using
00:15:14
Speaker
Olelo Hawaiian language in the courts during some of their legal issues. And Hawaiian is an official state language of Hawaii. So state by state, things are different. In California, we're actually the most linguistically diverse area outside of Papua New Guinea. So we had over 100 languages in California. wow And now have even more with folks that are here, too. But right um so, yeah, I think that coming out of Wales, I just had this whole new idea around really working more of the infrastructure, like if we can get the state of California to actually recognize our languages as official languages of California, I think that we could start to get more support.
Welsh Immersion Schools and Language Projects
00:16:12
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Since I imagine that's, I mean, I imagine there's more support for, for some of the other languages in California, like some of like, you know, Spanish being a prime example. Yeah, and that's kind of gone back and forth over the years. Like my father's an elementary school teacher and he was at the in the 90s with bilingual education for Spanish. And then they just cut it. They were like, nope, English only. So there's over the years and that really impacts what it looks like on the ground. so
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that going to Wales really helped me push thinking about these different things. Like you can do as much as you want with your language program. But if you don't have these larger groups or governmental support around it, um I just really saw it in a different way. So that yeah, that was really exciting. And then I also got to tour a Welsh immersion school. So that was, you know, that they have these out here around different tribal communities as well. but just being able to go there and see what they were doing. they have It's a lot more open there. like you don't tech You don't have to be like Welsh to learn the language. It's the official language of that area.
00:17:31
Speaker
And so that's also different too, cause in native communities, everyone's different, but there is kind of an insider outsider feeling sometimes, which is totally valid. Like we come from a history of not being able to speak our languages. I understand why people feel sensitive around it, but I just, it pushed my understanding around like, what would it look like if actually like, everyone had to take a native language in high school and not Spanish, you know? So just these little things that like, I don't know, things could look very different. Right. Wow. Okay. On, on that thought with planting those seeds in everyone's minds, we're going to take our first break point and we will be right back.
00:18:18
Speaker
All right. Okay. So we're back and let's dive back into talking about this language work. So I want to hear a little bit more about some of the work that you've done in language work. Could you talk about maybe like a project that you felt like was a ah creative way of, of working on this topic? Yeah. Uh, key equal, key equal. ahqueish hi kii alu schmmo ah We make things with our language.
00:18:53
Speaker
so you know For me, it's important to try to keep reminding myself to put the language out there more, like even in spaces like this, where most people probably won't understand, but it's really about just getting it out there. So I've made a few things that were for our community only. you know A lot of people kind of feel sometimes sensitive about sharing our languages on the internet. And especially now with the rise of like AI and chat GPT, like mining. And I think that we were good to be careful with that in the last 10 years, so but I still wanna be able to use technology and internet platforms because that's where people are at. I gotta look at, this is where my community's at. They're on Facebook, they're on Instagram, they're on TikTok, right? I'm like resisting getting part of TikTok, but I might finally pay.
00:19:51
Speaker
But I think that there's ways like we can make private pages. So what I do, I use unlisted YouTube links to make videos and I'll just send those around. So I'm using YouTube, but it's one step away from being a public thing that's out there for everyone. And then the other thing I'm really excited about, I was able to do some working on my dissertation. And for most people, that's just like a written document, you know, that's it. But I was able to put in there that I wanted to do multimedia. um
00:20:27
Speaker
So they approved of that and one of my committee members, he actually has a radio show called American Roots, Dr. Nick Spitzer. So I feel really fortunate that like the program at Tulane has really just held me and supported me to like be super creative and be able to do things. um And I think that really speaks to like I'm dealing with a problem that needs creativity as a response. Language loss in our communities is a long history, and we're going to have to be really creative and innovative to help solve that. So I created a community-only podcast. I call it Saksutmo, which means to learn.
00:21:18
Speaker
And I have two episodes so far, and that goes out to a list of about 70 emails that I have of Chumash folks. And that started as a newsletter, a written newsletter. And then one day I just was like, you know what, I'm just going to record myself talking. So that is an area of like, definite future growth for me. I'm really excited to keep working on that and like maybe doing small, you know, 10 or 15 minute language lessons or just share a little concept or read a story. And then posting that on Google Drive, it's accessible. But again, it's one step away. It's not really on, you know, wherever you get your podcast. So that's another interesting thing I hope people can
00:22:08
Speaker
pick up on or use for their communities. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I'm like, the wheels are spinning in my head. I'm like, hmm, interesting. oh That's a good idea. Yeah. You know, and I think it's it's sad because it's like, unfortunately, the reason that we are so protective, especially around our medicine knowledge, like anthropology and linguistics are disciplines and archeology that are inherently extractive, right? Historically extractive.
00:22:38
Speaker
right So one chapter of my dissertation and kind of this idea I've been rolling around with is this idea of renegotiating consent. We need to really build back. We've been taken from for so long. We really have to build back in these ways to say, actually, no, this is only for us. And when I say there's real implications, it's like we have certain you know plant medicines that will make you go crazy. And I've actually seen people on if I had to deal with people online posting about it, making it seem cool. These are non-native people. Right. And sure, yeah, it's a free country. Like do whatever you want. But ah most people that I know are trying to live more in, you know, a respectful way. And yeah, for me, it's like these are really serious things that like when I'm in the archives and I'm working on archival stories,
00:23:36
Speaker
not all of that is going to be out for everyone to see and that's just those are the decisions that we have to make as Native people who are choosing to go into these institutional spaces or disciplines and yeah being able to get our voices out there and and yeah get people to maybe think about some things that they're doing with their research so That's kind of also some of the stuff I've been doing that I think definitely comes from my work in like activism and land defense and movement work, really bringing those efforts back into the academic space and really challenging some of these like norms and practices that have been going on in academia that you know have been changing and that continue to need to change.
00:24:23
Speaker
who Yeah, no, i I love that. I mean, I am just thinking about so much of the work we do. I feel
Intergenerational Language Learning and Ethical Considerations
00:24:31
Speaker
like lately, one of the things that has really stood out to me is is that one of the biggest benefit to the kind of work we do is that it it provides the opportunity for elders to like get out on the landscape. and and you know really have somebody who's like listening and and you know showing respect and all of those things and how much that that can really mean to the elders. And but and so many of them like are like wanting their language to get passed down and you know wanting to share with future generations and sitting in you know like elders committees or things like that.
00:25:07
Speaker
talking about this stuff, but not really knowing like how to do it. And it just seems like, yeah, if somebody put a microphone in that room and like did a you know closed group where it was only available to like members of that tribe, like how much they would, I think really get a lot from that. And then also, you know, the the younger generation where I feel like the elders a lot of times feel like they don't necessarily care. But like when you go talk to the younger generation, like they don't feel like they have access to the elders or the language or don't feel comfortable asking questions or, you know, all of these different things. So it it really does seem like a ah great solution that like everybody could benefit from. Yeah, I think some of that can be cultural or family stuff where it's like,
00:25:56
Speaker
you know, I'm like, yeah, we should all be able to ask questions, but it's like the way that we learn in family structures and community structures, like, I don't know. so So I think that there's something there too that like that actually might be like a deference to elders and like, but yeah, creating spaces where like young people can ask questions. Yeah. Maybe among themselves or with like an appointed elder or something. But so I think that's also just, we Yeah, we're humans and things are messy and like it's dynamic, but like I think that at this point, we have to do like as much as we can to to try to do something. and I'm thinking to a later question that we were going to discuss, but it feels pertinent now, which is that like what are things I wished people knew working with communities, tribes, and descendants? and it's like
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, especially for academics that are working on someone else's homelands and especially I've ran into linguists who work on some like little aspect of some language or some theory, like they don't think that they quote unquote work on native language. And I guess I would hope in general in academia, that people are taking a look at where they are, whose land they're on. And really not only making sure that they're like, giving the product of the work back to the community that they work with. But being creative and like, I know people talk about how stressful it is to be an academic and there's all this work to do and try to get tenure and, you know, but it's like,
00:27:47
Speaker
really getting people to also just think about, you know, what are you doing to give back to, yeah, like answering the harm that was done through removal and kicking people off their homelands. And especially like a lot of the US universities were established with something called land grant institutions. And really looking at that and just really thinking about it's an ongoing process of giving back. And if you're not giving back now, you know, get together with some people, put your heads together and figure out ways that you can plug into giving back more to whose land you're on.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, thinking about it in that way, it's one of the things that you've talked about and for very good reason is you know that language can be very sensitive you know for for lots of reasons. And then giving back, like is there a way that you have found that someone has like successfully done something that involves giving back related to language? That's a really hard question, I know. Yeah, I think it's I think ah I think of it in a more abstract way that I don't think of it as an actual product to give back. I think it's like zooming out and like even if it means that you're like changing the way that your university, your program engages with local folks or, you know, I was really
00:29:18
Speaker
Interesting. I was very lucky when I was at Smithsonian that the British Museum actually returned the Benin bronzes, which started this kind of ripple effect that then the Smithsonian also returned a different set of Benin bronzes and created a program called ethical returns. So to me, it was really fascinating to think of like, and I couldn't really address it and because my dissertation was like, it was related, but you can only do so much in a dissertation. And I was like, I can't really pursue this, but right I did have a chapter about access and archives. And yeah, what does reparations or ethical returns look like? Essentially, Smithsonian is going to be assessing, you know, they have like a million objects.
00:30:14
Speaker
So they're going to be assessing, this is going to take years. But it's so that things can start being returned outside of the NAGPRA context. So I think that like I walk a very interesting line, I think because I am a craftsman and like I make things. And yeah, there's this deep longing to return things. When I went to Wales, I also got to go to the British Museum. That was a really big deal. It was like, You know, they have our cultural belongings. Also, language has power, right? So like in the institutional context, people call them objects. And I started to kind of learn more about how actually there's people who we prefer to use different language. We like to call these our cultural belongings or our heritage belongings or bringing more kind of less
00:31:08
Speaker
sanitary or institutional. So that's a really big project. And when it comes to linguistics and archives and stories and language, which is abstract, I'm really pushing for some kind of plan around the Smithsonian and other institutions. really allocating more funds to language workers. And some tribes do want the actual products back, they want the notes back. But I'm actually just thinking about it more like, I want more, like I want more of a commitment. And the experience was was really great being a research fellow was, you know, I met a lot of great people, and I think it really pushed my work. But
00:31:55
Speaker
At the same time, I will always hold a space to like remain critical of these institutions who've essentially made money off of our communities for hundreds of years. Yeah. And ah so, okay. That is one thing I'd be really curious to ask you about with your background. Like you gave a really good example of of objects versus belongings. Have there been other words that you've really noticed that you, you feel like you'd like to see people use differently or, you know, use different words or whatever that you've seen that are are common that you're uncomfortable with?
00:32:36
Speaker
I mean, I think that's a huge question, but my first response would be like getting academic people to understand that like, yeah, the work that they do, I guess I'm thinking of like human remains and like ancestral remains, like right archeology, osteology, all these fields, it's like basically, you know, in my dissertation, I kind of address it too that like, Western science was able to make something legal or okay through the creation of the destruction of our burial sites and the destruction of our ancestral remains. They created like a legally sanctioned way to do something that's absolutely immoral and unethical.
00:33:27
Speaker
right And so really just kind of bringing more, so not so much a word change, but bringing more space around or reframing some of these like, you know, yeah, I'm 36. I was born in the 80s. Like we were born into this, right? But like a lot of this is not, This is not the way things are supposed to be. And so, yeah, we continue to to fight for our ancestors. We continue to fight for return of our ancestors. So
Community-Driven Linguistics and Collaboration
00:33:57
Speaker
I think that's where my mind first goes. And then I mean, yeah, just kind of taking care around it like I was in a meeting recently and someone just kind of referred to like. You know, the baskets are their own thing, and we want them back desperately.
00:34:12
Speaker
but then they were like, you know, like the return of like baskets or, or, or ancestors. And I was like, Hey, I got to slow you down. Cause like totally different things. Right. And the weight of that. And when you bring that into this meeting, like, like that. So yeah, to me, like, and when people talk about like content warnings or trigger warnings, like that totally changes the tone of a meeting for me. I have to like take a step back now and like, this is not just a conversation piece for me. Like this is real. Like we're really desperately trying to like repair these things that were done to our ancestors, you know? Right. Right. All right. Well, super important topics. Very excited to, to dive back in after this break right here.
00:35:03
Speaker
So we are back and I want to kind of continue a little bit of of what we were just talking about in terms of what what advice would you would you give people who are looking to work with with tribes or descendant communities? Yeah, maybe like three pieces of advice. Yeah, I think that I really look to Maori scholar, Dr. Linda Tuhui Smith. I love her work, Decolonizing Methodologies. And I'm like a nerd that I will go try to find weird obscure like YouTube talks that people have done, you know. I also got to the point in grad school where I was like, I literally can't read anymore. Like it was just, yeah, it was a problem.
00:35:48
Speaker
So yeah, I was listening to a video of her and she was just talking about sending a young guy and he was Maori to go research and to get stories or something from an elder. And then later she heard from the elder that he, yeah, he showed up, he like used all her cream for her coffee, like just really didn't think of what his presence meant. So I guess that was a really something I wanted to relate to people, like almost like a leave no trace. You know, and food is very different in cultures, but for the most part, yeah, bringing food, like just making sure that you're not detracting from a situation. And that's one thing I wanted to kind of relate to people, like think about what your presence means.
00:36:37
Speaker
And then another one I had already touched on, but I'll kind of talk again about if you are an academic researcher who is putting out articles or things that are often behind paywalls and not accessible to people. you know, really make sure that you're giving back not only, you know, hey, here's this project I worked on and giving that back, but also doing the work to make an accessible piece of it too. It's actually not really accessible to deliver an article with a bunch of jargon to an elder. yeah So can you actually, you know, maybe create some gatherings or some dinners where you're gonna talk about your work?
00:37:19
Speaker
I would also argue that like it makes the work better, too. I think that when we work in silos and don't come back to share the work with each other, yeah, I would just say that like it would actually lead to better work as well, that like through that kind of conversational style. like You might actually end up getting more you know finishing out or flushing out an idea you had. And then another thing I'm not really sure if I have three exactly, but um they those are just really big ones for me. And just, oh yeah, I think the third one I had thought of was like, you know, remember you're a guest, like even if you're a native too, being, if you're in not from a community, really just being aware of like,
00:38:10
Speaker
and really deferring to people that like you might have lived there for a while, but like you will there will always be a part of it that you won't really understand because you're not from there. And yeah, just really making sure to like yeah be a good guest and and play nice with people and not um not play nice, but just like get along and be a good relative. That's basically all three of those was be a good relative. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I love that idea of, you know, not just sending, you know, an article or something back, but like hosting a community dinner and and talking about your work and having it be a little bit more interactive and things like that. ah That's a really good idea.
00:38:56
Speaker
All right. Okay. So where would you like to see the field go? Yeah, I think that this question was really interesting for me because I felt like I really do stand at the crossroads of linguistics and language work, which sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. So I think I have like, comments that are towards linguistics more than comments that are towards language or workers more but yeah I think in general I just want to see people yeah coming off of the last question like people doing people making more of an effort
00:39:35
Speaker
to share their work, to have there be more gatherings that are not just academic or not just language workers, but like the crossover of the two, one that I can think of as like co-laying, which happens every two years. It's coming up in Arizona this year. And it started as a very like non-natives who work on native language. And it's now kind of transitioned to a lot more native folks like myself who are actually linguists as well who are working on our languages. So I just think that like, yeah, that cross fertilization is just really powerful. And for language workers and native people, I'm yeah, I think what I want to see for us in the future is more
00:40:29
Speaker
awareness and respect about our languages and and I guess that also I'm what I mean is that I want more resources for us I want people to write us into grants more yeah it's just really really tiring I think a lot of the work I do is like reminding people we're here. And then it's like, oh, we already put this grant in. And it's like, so I just wish more people, and I wish more people would like advocate for us when we're not in the room. So I really hope people can like be that you know ally or accomplice, whatever word you want to say that's like, hey, have you checked in with those people? And yeah, I think that that's a space that people often shy away from because white culture is very like conflict-avoidant. So we're like,
00:41:17
Speaker
Oh, don't make waves, but it's like, okay, so now we're just kind of still in this weird stagnant, you know, yeah, you do good work, but do like the people you work with even know that you did this, you know? So just, I would say like, that's what I would like to see more of. So I, I'm a cultural anthropologist. I don't know the the difference here. Can you explain more the difference between lingu linguistics and language work? Yeah, I think while a lot of indigenous folks have studied linguistics, I see linguistics, I've always felt like an outsider. So linguistics feels, you know, it is tech it's technically the study of language and languages. So those are different things. Like language with a little L is actually the human capacity
00:42:08
Speaker
to communicate and have language, whereas languages are the different ones that we speak. So these are like two different things. And then language work, that is the work that we do in our communities to revitalize and sustain and work on our our languages, the promotion of, you know, indigenous languages. or when we were talking about the world context of like they call minoritized languages. So I see them as like overlapping, but I also see that oftentimes language work is a more community driven thing, less academic, and whereas linguistics is more like, you know, but I don't know, I think that people like me are kind of like blurring the lines a lot and that's good. Yeah.
00:43:01
Speaker
So it's applied essentially, like, in a way, like when I think of... Yeah, and there's a whole field called applied linguistics too. So would you say is that different than the language work? Yeah, I think think about a resource I'd love to link in the show notes from Daryl Kipp, who's a Blackfeet language activist from Montana, who's since passed away. um He's very famous. He had a school called Cuttswood School. And he has a little essay he wrote called Encouragement. And it's a longer title, but that's
00:43:36
Speaker
the basic title, encouragement and insight for language workers. And I bring him up because for me, language work is also like a political orientation. So whereas linguistics was the field that I studied to learn more, I think language work is like an actual ethic or philosophy that I have that like, what can I do? to teach myself, my family, and my friends, and my community, and more particularly, children. So Darryl Kipp's whole philosophy was like, he's super rad. And i as a cultural anthropologist, you should totally read it. But one like ah one of the big takeaways is like, don't ask for permission. Just do your language now.
00:44:27
Speaker
And then the other thing is like how your proof will be how many children are speaking the language. um So that's those are kind of when I talk about the future of where this is going, you know, that is kind of what I'm trying to figure out is how to create some opportunities for children to speak our language more. And I'm very specific not to say a program because I think that people get really weirded out by like,
00:45:01
Speaker
the word school or program or so i'm I'm really trying to like be strategic about the way I'm like in the Gaelic context they have things called breathing places where and that's in Ireland and other places I'm sorry I'm not well versed but Gaelic speakers are everywhere but so yeah over there they have when I when I was there in Wales too I got to hear from some of the Gaelic folks that were saying they have something called breathing places And so they're like, where can we just make more places where people feel comfortable speaking the language? So I don't know. It's a very I really do lean on my like activists and anarchist orientations around it because it is a very um you do have to kind of have like a political and like a tough angle with this work.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah. So,
Reflections, Activism, and Future Aspirations
00:46:01
Speaker
okay. Thinking about all the work that you've done so far and, you know, everything we've, we've talked about up till now, like, is there a particular direction that you want to go with this type of work after you, after you finish your PhD? Yeah, it's been really interesting. I think um I talked to my mom about this question and about prepping for the show. And I said when I got to that question, like I didn't really know what to say, but I think that that's OK. And she did encourage me like this has been a six year process for me. I've changed a lot in those six years. We all have. We had a global pandemic. There's all kinds of things going on. But I really kind of felt, you know, the
00:46:45
Speaker
urge to just take a step back. So part of the speech process is air. we need air to breathe literally. But I've been thinking more about how I also really want to give air or space around my language work. I do not want to suffocate it. I do not want to push it to the point. Logical next steps would have been to, you know, start some kind of language program and get some grant or
00:47:17
Speaker
go work for the Smithsonian or, you know, all these great things. But I just really was thinking, like, I really just need to take a step back and like, I really appreciate and I feel honored that I've been able to do this work for the last six years, six or 10 years. But I think I need to take a step back to see what's next, because the unknown, you know, in that kind of unknown space, I think my next thing will come. I just feel like I need to kind of, to in order to keep building on the work I've done, I kind of just need to see what what are my new materials, right? It's like, it's a kind of an alchemy of like, language work cannot be done alone. I need people, I need a space, I need Money to pay my bills, but yeah, I think I just like have really changed the way I've thought I'm not that motivated to get some academic job and I think.
00:48:21
Speaker
I'm going to see what that looks like for me. I've just really focused on finishing the dissertation and I'll be graduating this May. So it's very exciting. yeah And I'm just really, I mean, it's scary, but I'm also just kind of excited just to, to think about maybe my next thing will find me, you know, so, but yeah, I think really looking towards making myself available to help people who want to learn our language in our tribe and then, You know, I feel a commitment to other communities as well. I think maybe leaning more into my LanguageNet project and feeding that some more. So yeah, those are some of the things I'm thinking about.
00:49:02
Speaker
Yeah. Well, first, congrats. That's super exciting. Thank you. Yeah. Well, and unfortunately this this podcast won't air for, for a while. Otherwise I'd say, well, you know, you never know. It'll probably air right around when you graduate. So if if there's somebody out there, that's like, Oh my God, I need to hire her. yeah This is your sign. yeah'll see Yeah, no, but I do think a lot of times, you know, we pack our lives so full with things that we don't leave space for, for the right thing to come along sometimes. And there's, there's, there's something to that, you know, that, that, uh, I think I've learned a lot from, from this work and working with elders and things like that is that if you're forcing it, it's probably not going to work. So.
00:49:49
Speaker
I think there's there's some some beauty and some ah smart thinking behind all of all of what you're saying. So yeah, so is there, I mean, we're, we're right at the end. I did want to touch real quick on, uh, you mentioned your, your land protection efforts. Um, so i'd I'd be really curious to hear more about that since obviously like that's something that is really important in my work is, you know, the, the connection between land and culture and obviously language and things like that. So I'd i'd really love to hear more about your efforts there as well.
00:50:23
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. You know, I really wanted to just take the chance to maybe let people know that, you know, this work, we are doing this work in a very specific moment of climate chaos, and especially for indigenous people. and poor people are lands and waters and ourselves are considered sacrifice zones. And we see that a lot in Chumash country. We have a lot of oil and gas. um There was a big oil boom that we're still dealing with, you know, the refuse of that. And so right now, what's on my mind, I was very fortunate to be able to go to Mount IKEA in 2019.
00:51:07
Speaker
And um that really changed my life. It really showed me that land defense is something connected to prayer. and ceremony and it really helped guide me on that path of getting involved in land defense. And right now what's on my mind is the Mountain Valley Pipeline, which is going through West Virginia and Virginia and other parts of that area of the so-called U.S. This pipeline was pretty much
00:51:38
Speaker
going to not happen. And then in 2023, Joe Manchin was able to push Congress to bypass a bunch of EPA and like really serious laws that are in place to protect our land and water. And they're totally bypassing all of that. So I would just hope people, you know, if you've never heard of that, you can go check them out on all different platforms. They're called Appalachians against pipelines. And yeah, this next couple months is a really serious time. So if you're at all in that area and you want to go try to plug in and help them, or even just keeping track of it, because we're also seeing a rise in repression from the state.
00:52:23
Speaker
So people are being arrested and held without bond or with huge bail fines. So even if people are out there who are just keeping track of like our rights as people to protest, um it's a really scary time right now. So I think we saw, you know, back in 2016 with no dapple, that was a really big, you know, indigenous land movement, but people all over are constantly fighting to protect our land and water. um So it's something that I feel really, you know, I feel blessed to be part of it, but I also feel like
00:53:02
Speaker
I think that it is something that is about survival and moving forward to like, what are we going to do in the next five to 10 years? Like, you know, things are are pretty dire. And so that's kind of something that came across my path that, and I got to meet so many cool people too, who, and I got to talk about language work with them. So I feel really fortunate that I feel like that came into my life at a time where I'm glad that it helped me stay grounded in the academic space because I think that that I would have been a little more lost if I didn't have those kind of values to fall back on. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, we're we're at the end of our time. Is there any last, like, i'm I'm going to explode if I don't get this one last thing out?
00:53:55
Speaker
sure no no he allappi kiakalin he um tippow wheel he shu and um pushsh each e um key deeppowheel washhi um I'm grateful and thank you for letting me talk about our language. It makes me happy that us two, we got to share this time and get to talk about language work and all the good things that come with it. Yes. Thank you so much. i I learned so much. I mean, like I said, i I don't have as much of a background in linguistic anthropology, language work, all of these things as I would like to have. And so I personally learned a lot. I'm sure our listeners learned a huge amount and I'm just really, really grateful to you for taking the time to come on. So thank you. Thank you.
00:54:52
Speaker
Thanks
Podcast Conclusion and Engagement Information
00:54:53
Speaker
for listening to the Heritage Voices podcast. You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com slash Heritage Voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google Play Music Store. Also, please share with your friends or write us a review. Sharing and reviewing helps more people find the show and gets the perspectives of Heritage Voices amazing guests out there into the world. Don't we just need more of that in anthropology and land management? If you have any more questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org. If you'd like to volunteer to be on the show as a guest or even a co-host, reach out to me as well, Jessica at livingheritageanthropology dot.org. You can also follow more of what I'm doing on Facebook at livingheritageanthropology and the nonprofit Living Heritage Research Council, or on Twitter at livingheritagea. As always, huge thank you to Liable Enqua and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our incredible logo.
00:55:58
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, Dig Tech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.