Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 47: Eli Rainsberry (A Monster's Expedition, Saltsea Chronicles, Wilmot Works It Out)
0 Plays2 seconds ago
In this episode, Alan and Syrenne are joined by Eli Rainsberry, the composer and sound designer of A Monster's Expedition, Saltsea Chronicles, Wilmot Works It Out, and more. Topics include how they got into the industry, the development of A Monster's Expedition, and how designing music for puzzle games is different from other games.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Ellie's Background
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Drakknack and Friends official podcast where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren from Drakknack and Friends and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Drakknack at Drakknack and Friends.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hey! Today we're joined by Ellie Rainsbury, who you may know from their work on Games Like a Monster's Expedition. How are you doing today? I am doing okay. It is really miserable in the UK right now. It is like the most typical scene that I think you can probably see if folks are familiar with the north of the UK. But yeah, I'm doing all right. Slightly on the sleepy side, but that is just my default setting these days.
00:01:00
Speaker
ah Yeah, that I feel that too hard. um Can you sort of give yourself a more full introduction for people who don't know what you've done or aren't familiar with your work? Yeah, absolutely. um I'm Ellie, and my pronouns are they, them, and I'm a composer and audio sound designer.
00:01:21
Speaker
I've been specializing in making music and sounds mostly for video games for, it must be like, at least nine to ten years now but probably more like full-time-ish from like eight years or something the things like it's broadly like anything between the realms of animated and interactive things that I really enjoy making things for Most folks here, as Siren would say, would know my work from A Monsters Expedition, but there's also my collaborations with the folks at Hollow Ponds, like Flock and the Wilmot Games, Wilmot's Warehouse and Wilmot Works It Out, which is um the last... game I've worked on and my most recent soundtrack and I also really enjoy working on narrative games so my past games for those were games like Salt Sea Chronicles, No Longer Home and If Found and yeah that's kind of the thing kind of games I've done like it's usually quite a mixed bag of things which I try to do where I can
00:02:27
Speaker
So because you've worked on so many types of games, ah you've worked on narrative games, you've worked on let's say, different types of
Integrating Genre into Game Music
00:02:38
Speaker
puzzle game. i I love the Wilmot series. They are a distinctly different type of puzzle game to Monsters Expedition, as an example. um How do you integrate genre into composition? Is it more that you just kind of ignore that and think about what the player experience is generally going to be? Or do you try to, like, in Amasa's Expedition, I'm sorry, i'm jumping all around with this. Yeah, no, that's okay. Because like, that's a really good question. I'm also kind of like, it's interesting because like, I thought about like, um like, sometimes I think about um like, how the player could like, ah perceive or approach um games in a musical sort of sense. But also, like, there's some stuff where like, I feel like I've kind of let myself be selfish in a way that I try to do things that I also enjoy and the folks that
00:03:34
Speaker
I work with trust me with going ahead with the thing and like it mostly ends up working out anyway um but yeah I think it's also just very it's all very project dependent I think when it comes to each musical part of the game that I've been on Gotcha. Yeah, because like well on monsters, I'm thinking especially like so for people who have not played that game in a long time, I'm assuming most of our listeners have at least played a little bit of the game.
00:04:02
Speaker
um After the first, let's say two minutes, which is like a very this is the opening theme of the game. ah The music will kind of fade into the background as it is letting the player solve the puzzle.
00:04:15
Speaker
And then it kind of comes up ah like it comes up in intensity and volume between islands or as you're going on a raft journey or like there are a lot of structured moments where the player is maybe not having to lock in and focus.
00:04:30
Speaker
But... when they are needing to lock it in and focus, it is pulling back a lot. And so I was wondering if that is a larger part about how you think about genre or if that just was what you needed to do for this game in particular.
00:04:46
Speaker
I think definitely um the latter more so because I think genre-wise, I think that was kind of like a very ever-changing thing. like I think like fundamentally it was always going to have some kind of um acoustic palette and I think that was like...
00:05:05
Speaker
even kind of a core part to like the very early stages of developing music for the game because I was like I've been like looking back at really early notes for um the audio development for the game because I don't remember anything complete disclaimer I really don't um so anything i on yeah anything i've like thought about i've fortunately i've gotten in this big night nice notes up in front of me um and like there was some things that have definitely like have been kept in some way from like the initial sketches that go as far back as like 2018 alan can you believe yeah i mean you you were working on this game through multiple iterations of its identity
00:05:51
Speaker
Yes.
Development of Game Music Over Time
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah. I guess, yeah. One question I had for you is like, how much do you remember the goals for the music changing throughout development as the identity of the project change versus how much was like the music music, just like a through line that like you could, we could have taken a piece of work from 2018 and just used it in the released game.
00:06:12
Speaker
um Do you remember? Yeah, I mean, so the things I'd noted was like for, i'm going to like refer to like the soundtrack names, um but the tracks for Three the Archway, As It By the Water, which feature in like the first biome and To Cross the Seas, which I think is like late kind of midway through where I think the palette slightly changes from being more acoustic to more electric kind of guitar based um those tracks are probably like have got the closest sort of seeds from those really early sketches and
00:06:48
Speaker
um But I think like the palette has generally like slightly changed. I think things were, I think a lot more polished um much later on. i think like, hopefully if you remember, like I think it was even within like some part of like 2020, like leading up to the release where I think I actually finalized the actual sound of the music palette a lot more close to how I wanted it in my head.
00:07:18
Speaker
um And to answer like the following the earlier question um in terms of what came up for the game at the time, I think like it wasn't so much a
Collaboration and Dynamic Audio
00:07:30
Speaker
genre thing. it was like I think there were some notes. I remember like there has been on and off kind of like discussions I'd had with Ben um for like...
00:07:40
Speaker
the direction of the music and obviously ah um Ben would be someone I would collaborate with in terms of the implementation because um usually for implementation I like to have a collaboration with a programmer and kind of like bat off like what can work dynamically.
00:07:58
Speaker
And I think like there was some early ideas where things were quite rhythmic at first. um But I think later on, i think like it was like late 2019 where I've actually have got our meeting notes. This will be all good to say, I hope. So basically we kind of agreed um on how like we got a strength of this like dynamic audio approach with like having quite reactive audio it reinforces the actions um and we wanted to kind of strip away more the rhythm from the backing of the music at the time because I think that was what was going on and having that kind of more ambient space from here on out. And I think the rhythms kind of came a bit more through the UI audio in some way, um like having more percussive elements here and there.
00:08:55
Speaker
And I think that ended up with a slightly, I think, better experience in terms of like not having the repetition go too annoying on any anyone listening in.
00:09:07
Speaker
Hopefully that all made sense. Yeah, no, it does. Um... Yeah, I mean, honestly, the Monsters Expedition soundtrack and like the audio implementation is still really impressive to me.
Scoring Key Game Moments
00:09:20
Speaker
One question I had ah for both of you, if either of you remember, that opening raft journey with the with the title card. um Obviously, some version, i think we told this story, some version of that mechanical interaction of like you accidentally discovered the raft had existed in earlier builds of the game and then it got moved up because that's like the moment. And that's great.
00:09:49
Speaker
My question is the audio there, which came first, the final length of that raft ride or the length of the track? Like, was that scored to it? Or Ellie, did you know what you wanted to do? And so the world map had to change to accommodate it.
00:10:06
Speaker
I think it must have been like me trying to sync up to the timing of the music, right? That would my guess. The timing of like the rough duration, right? i started I started working on the game right after that got locked. So i never i never actually saw any of that discussion.
00:10:25
Speaker
I should have, yeah, I should have grabbed that. I doubt there was a discussion. I think, I think we just had the world and you were writing music for that moment.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yes, um I tend to like writing music to synced moments quite accurately where I can. i think I approach that kind of thing a lot more um linear.
00:10:49
Speaker
like So I think as long as I knew the kind of duration and what kind of timings there that were happening, then I think it was quite a straightforward sort of thing. Although that being said, i think like...
00:11:03
Speaker
what I probably wrote I imagined the kind of timing of the actual title card would be based on when the kind of music comes in fully at that time so I imagine that was probably a bit more synced to what I was doing but maybe my memory was not great around then. Yeah so I assume we would have implemented the music and then tweaked the timing of the title card.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, it seemed like it worked as a good build up if, yeah, a few folks like that. Awesome. um Alan, do you have any, I know you just said that you don't remember anything.
00:11:44
Speaker
Do you have any specific memories of working on the game or memories of feelings rather where once the music was in, it started to feel more real or like you finally like heard a draft of the music that felt like it, like how, how was what was your perspective of working through the soundtrack implementation for the game?
Pandemic Challenges and Memorable Music
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. i'm I, I don't have any specific memories and for, for a lot of the later part of development, I really was just in a,
00:12:22
Speaker
state of permanent hyper focus. um Yeah, I think that was the case with all of us, honestly. Like I think during the last, like, I think it was like the summer, um spring before release, I was kind of just like locked in, in a way of like, I know where want to go with the sound. I kind of just want to go for that. And I think you were the same with your own things. But also the last nine months of development being ah the first nine months of 2020,
00:12:50
Speaker
ah I was going to say it's it was the start of the pandemic, everyone. um So I think a lot of us weren't in for like a good time just on that end already. So i think any sort of um like low energy I felt around that period, it will probably be just more related to the world collapsing.
00:13:15
Speaker
um So and continues to be collapsing to this day, you know. Too true. um But having having said all that, I think um the thing that probably would have landed to me most while we were making it was like these moments where we suddenly trigger more music than there's been in the build up to it. Like you there's specific islands. And when you step foot on that island, it starts playing a longer track.
00:13:46
Speaker
And I think all of those moments are really special in the game. Thank you. Yeah, so I think what you were referring to, so I think that's like when you enter a new biome for the first time, to my memory. I'm not sure if we have one from every biome. I think we maybe have fewer of those. It's like, it's yeah, it's it's often a new biome, but it's also like we kind of, when in planning, we divided the game up into like several acts.
00:14:18
Speaker
um And there are fewer acts than there are biomes, but a lot of the time we'd want to introduce a new act with the first time you'd see a specific biome. Yes. i know Maybe it was an act. Yeah. The first time you go to the wintry biome.
00:14:34
Speaker
Well, there's a couple of similar wintry biomes. Yes, but the first wintry biome. Like that was an obvious place to like, like mark a transition. And it's also a point where we're like, in terms of the pacing of the mechanics, it's also when we're introducing something new.
00:14:52
Speaker
um and then late like ah just a little bit after that in the same act this is just if you're going on a critical path minor spoilers by the way for people who have not played a monster's expedition um you end up at the roller coaster area and that also has like a bespoke musical theme i believe oh my god explicitly i don't remember doing that um i remember like Did we still, mean, this might be like spoilers as well, but I remember doing something like a ferry go around sort of carousel. There is a carousel. A cursed carousel. I remember that.
00:15:31
Speaker
um The roller coaster. I'm going to have to like dig through that later. don't remember specific music for the roller coaster either. remember there being, um, I think it might just be parts of the track dropping out because there's this there's the screaming of the roller coaster going around.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, that would make sense. So anyway it might it might just be that. But yeah, I do remember that the music changes every single time you go over there for the first time. um And that's, I mean, that's just a fun part of the...
00:16:02
Speaker
ah map in general because it's one of those things where you go into once you realize that you can zoom out once you're in a post box and see the whole world there's like five exhibits I think total that like peak above the fog that are like big monuments of where you will go and one of them is the roller coaster yeah yeah that's so and worth worth saying um ellie you did both all the music and all the sound design of the game yes yes are other than the carousel are there any exhibits that really stand out to you for doing sound design on
00:16:37
Speaker
Ooh, that's a good question.
Sound Design Highlights
00:16:39
Speaker
Again, this is where my um memory is just like incredibly dusty. um i feel bad. I feel like I should have played the game again. From memory, there's some good squelches with the sentient lasagna.
00:16:54
Speaker
Oh my god, the sentient lasagna. Yeah. ah The zoetrope has like a really very low hum. i'm trying to I'm trying to think. yeah what I know like with the carousel, with that coming up in my head a bit more, I think that was probably just the more memorable sort of thing. There's the merman, the reverse merman.
00:17:18
Speaker
yeah I mean, I think a lot of exhibits didn't have sounds. No, a but few of the most memorable ones Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's some sounds, like the sounds I think I remember the most enjoying is like, um I guess the ones that combine the more musical sort of elements. Like I think the whole dynamic musical build up when you're pushing the tree about and that sort of thing. And the yeah i will always be proud of that role.
00:17:49
Speaker
ah um And what else? um I think this was a sound that like, I think I had in earlier versions of the game, but there's just like the like simple transition sounds I had where it was just like a little,
00:18:03
Speaker
um It's just, it's gonna sound cursed, a mouth blow, like of like the transition of the fog fading away to reveal the other island when you go over. yeah There's probably going to be of a much better way to phrase that. There's a little bit of a whoosh in the final game. Yeah, the whoosh.
00:18:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's just like a like you know man-made, human-made whoosh sort of thing. So yeah, I think just having little subtleties and more like analog acoustic like sounds is always ah the sort of thing I really like.
00:18:39
Speaker
What was the... inspiration behind turning Undo into a rhythmic percussion.
00:18:50
Speaker
Good question. i mean, I think it was probably more the kind of like we had like, I think going back to another thing that we were talking about in terms of like having like less rhythmic aspects in the music I think I still wanted to find ways to have that um come through in some way in the whole soundscape but obviously we can't have it like too tight to rhythm because it would kind of clash in some way or another So i think I just like experimented as far as I can remember with um the types of percussion that would resonate with the kinds of UI that would suit things. um So like the smaller sort of like sounds would like be more clicky or yeah, the undo sounds like would be a bit more of a little cymbal hit. Yeah. And yeah, I think the idea, like what helps to not make it too annoying is probably we like variating it a little bit. um I've actually got the, I've got the F mod file like right in front of me. Cause I'm like, there's going to be stuff that I don't remember. Yeah. um so
00:20:16
Speaker
yeah, I think I just have numerous um iterations that of the undo sound that will just like repeat multiply. So it's just a bit different each time. So it's, it's funny because So this is a broader thing and that that's very funny. I was half expecting you to say that Alan came to you and asked for it because one thing that I've noticed in practice, I've watched a lot of people play this game, both when it came out um as producer and then just as someone who is like sat friends down or family down and be like, play this game. I worked on it.
00:20:55
Speaker
Um, One thing is that there's a lot of pride that can come with a puzzle game of not wanting to use undo and reset, especially if you're not very familiar with the genre.
00:21:09
Speaker
And once like almost like clockwork, once someone feels like The soundscape is interacting with them using the undo mechanic. They no longer feel bad about using the undo mechanic.
00:21:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that sounds like a pretty nice way to go about it. I mean, I don't think it was like a idea that like, I think it was like percussive stuff was generally like an idea I wanted to have. And it's something that I like to try in like the games I usually do sound design on. Like there'll always be a bit of a subtle percussive element to it. But yeah, Alan, I don't know if you had any particular direction for me for that. No, I think you just pitched like, hey, I'd like to do this.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate the trust in me with that. so yeah, I think it was just as straightforward in that. And yeah, I think if a sound like that is able to make things feel accessible to the people playing the game that I think that's a really sweet bonus.
00:22:15
Speaker
I think that's a playfulness to all of the sound design. Yeah, for sure. um There's also like the other side of the um scale where like there's um sounds to make that can like reaffirm the kind of direction you're going. And I guess in some way where the dynamic hits when you're moving the tree about can be one thing. But I think about um there is a movement to like a slightly to a different game um to where what works it out. There's a few kind of UI sounds like obviously this approach is a lot more kind of synthetic and a bit more in key and tune with the music going on in the game rather than like percussive.
00:22:57
Speaker
But I had a few people talk about um the UI sound that may I made that happens when you're about to connect a puzzle piece to a correct section. Just like a little synth beep. It won't be as like harsh as a beep, but like a little subtle hit before things click in. so again, that's like another, feel like, nice bit of accessibility in some way of like reassuring people.
00:23:25
Speaker
the player that it's okay to do one thing like that as well or you're either going towards like the right sort of track or it's okay to go back to the start if you need to like with a monster like but expedition with the undo button uh so moving further back in time the monster expedition how did you get into audio design and composition for games in the first place I think it's kind of like a mixed bag of things um in terms of like the actual interest towards like making things for
Journey into Game Audio Design
00:23:58
Speaker
games. I didn't really think that it was kind of an option for me to explore until I remember like a collaborator um at uni sent me the soundtrack for um the Sword and Sorcery EP, um the video game soundtrack by Jim Guffrey.
00:24:18
Speaker
And hearing like kind of more guitar orientated work as a guitarist when it comes to like in-game soundtracks was really um inspiring. I think it was the same when I came across some game soundtracks like Transistor, which would be Darren Korb, I think. so just hearing stuff like that was like oh this might feel reachable for me like I was always like you know I'd obviously be always interested in games in some way or another growing up but I didn't think much of like the route to it at the time I think doing university for example was mostly interested in film and i was kind of going more towards that route um on the side from games there's also like um I'm really like animation and there's like animated shows that were kind of branching beyond like the traditional orchestral stuff you'd hear from like the kind of Looney Tunes genre of animated music so um there's shows like Avenged Time for example which was like really abstract and the sort of thing that I just didn't think would be a thing in most animation until now um and there's like really thematically driven music like in shows like Steven Universe and um the composers um shout out to I hope I pronounce your names right Ivy and Sarasu believe came from like games adjacent backgrounds and like the instrumental palettes and textures um are something that can be heard quite easily in certain game spaces too and I felt just a bit more
00:26:04
Speaker
at the time kind of more realistic to me um to reach as someone kind of at the time experimenting with more synthetic approaches to composing and producing music at the time and combining these ideas with what I enjoyed the most when it came to working on bits of short films and animations and seeing the collaborations that happened between like director and composer. and i felt like it was just a very natural way to go for me. And yeah, I kind of started having a kind of look into hanging out in those spaces. And
00:26:43
Speaker
moving to London for my master's course was um especially a big deal because I think that was like when I started going to just small indie games events um i was also volunteering for some like indie games events and over the summer for Feral Vector if anyone knows of it out there of course um just being in those sorts of spaces just really encouraged me to like want to like work and just hang out with like-minded people
00:27:21
Speaker
Um, and I think a combination of those things physically, um plus having some like work I had, I think online on SoundCloud or something, um, would have just eventually led me to being reached out by say, I think, um, Ricky Haggett reached out to me on the website that was Twitter for the first we Wilmot game. And yeah, I think eventually you, Alan. So it would have been, that probably would have been 2018 sort of thing.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, 2017, 2018. don't remember the timeline. I don't remember what, if there was a specific soundtrack that had mine or whether it was just like having met you in person It probably was the latter because I knew that we, I don't know whether Amaze of 2017 that year was when we first met properly or whether it was a bit before after then. But knew that we definitely hung out in some way or another um at that event. so Yeah, i mean, we were definitely um talking about this game with collaborators and or potential collaborators at Amaze 2017. Mm-hmm.
00:28:37
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense, I think. um But yeah, I guess that is kind of just like a broad nutshell in how I've navigated going into spaces. I think like routes are quite different for everyone sort of thing, but that was my kind of route. um Basically just being in like the physical smaller video game spaces made quite a big difference I think to just meeting people.
00:29:08
Speaker
And choosing a more niche puzzle game, um how did you come to do the soundtrack for Jetstream? I knew you were going mention Jetstream. I had it in like the background of just being like, I should have mentioned that I worked on um Jetstream. as I mean, it's not a game that expect a lot of people to know. i consider it a masterpiece of...
00:29:33
Speaker
theming a game to a like to two to have like a, like seeming an abstract game, giving it something concrete that actually works for the gameplay. Because a lot of the time it goes the other way around. You have a you have a setting or a theme and then the gameplay comes from this. But this is a game where it was just an abstract line drawing puzzle.
00:29:57
Speaker
And they found a framing for that puzzle that like actually made sense and like reinforces the gameplay in a way that's really impressive. Yeah, yeah. Like shout out to those folks. was like it was like definitely It was one of the first like smaller games I worked on. This was, I guess, like this was pre-Wilmott, I'd say, because I would say Wilmott was probably like the first kind of point where everyone started to perceive me TM in some way or another. um But Jetstream was, yeah, one of the smaller games I worked on. And I think at the time, you know, I think I was like, I remember I must have been work um doing my master's at the time. And I feel like it was that time period was a bit of a cesspool of like the things i was just working on multiple things whilst trying to get through this um degree. Yeah. um so unfortunately don't remember as much of the production but in terms of how I got into it I might be wrong i don't know whether I might have cold emailed or like there was like an open thing for people to apply to like work on the game and i did that because you know I would have done the whole like I don't want to say hustle culture but like you know I think everyone has kind of had that period where they are kind of just trying to search for numerous jobs and work in like either game spaces or in my like film spaces on my end sort of thing so I was just looking for bits and bats and I'm pretty sure I might have reached out to them
00:31:40
Speaker
um i could be wrong please call me out for this if i am wrong um yeah um uh-oh uh-oh okay that's just my end
00:32:00
Speaker
Your technical difficulties jingle. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. No, that's cool. That's cool. um Okay. So Jetstream. um Yeah. I don't remember the full details of like the actual development Jetstream. when I worked on the audio music for it, because i remember, i think I was just doing my masters. it was one of the few projects I was doing my masters or my last year of uni work at the time.
00:32:30
Speaker
Um, that, that would be a lie. Cause I think I took basically a gap year between my undergrad and post-grad and yeah, probably try to find work and work on stuff. Um, and I'm pretty sure that um working on Jetstream I might have reached out to them I don't know whether they had like an open call to like look for someone to do audio work but I'm pretty sure that was that um like people out there are free to call me out if I'm wrong on that but um
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how um I worked on um the game in the
Early Projects and Opportunities
00:33:13
Speaker
first place. And I guess, yeah, it would be technically the first puzzle game that I would have worked on in that way.
00:33:19
Speaker
I think what I probably remember, I'm just trying to think of more around it. I think it probably was more of a direct implementation sort of thing. Like we had to just music go into engine and yeah, oh, um it's things are coming back to me now. I think it was developed in Hacks.
00:33:37
Speaker
Yes, I believe so. Yeah. So, um and that was actually, I think also the first, the software that we dev developed Wilmot on because that was also a direct um music implement. So it would be more like lines of code where like music would come through um in that way.
00:33:55
Speaker
So I think it was kind of like a bit of a work to those sorts of limitations based off that. So yeah, I think like, I hopefully just did the best I could with the kind of setup I had there.
00:34:09
Speaker
And you're saying Wilmot with the game was like a little bit of ah a break for like getting more work? Yeah, absolutely. I think like, you know, chanceor I was working on, um you know, a few other games um at the time. Like, I think like there was like um a platformer runner that I was um working on for a bit at the time and there was also No Longer Home. And then like I was approached, I remember, over DMs by Ricky Haggett for Wilmot, which I think at the time I was a bit like,
00:34:46
Speaker
slightly starstruck by because I knew about the work from Hihokum and that was like I remember that being one of the first sort of indie games I would have um seen played I think on like a um on a on a big display by like my other friends at the time and being really impressed that that game like that could exist um so yeah and I think like because of I think how folks knew about hollow ponds beforehand um the trailer that we did for um the initial humble bundle release of Wilmot I think that was the point where it was probably a lot of people's first impression of me
00:35:32
Speaker
um like I think I had like a couple of folks I know reach out to me to possibly work all stuff just off the back of that um so yeah I probably consider Wilmot as kind of the catalyst at that in that way because of like how it just started to kind of take me off in some way or another really where This is maybe slightly a loaded question, but where do you want your career to go?
00:36:07
Speaker
ah do you want to keep working on small team indie projects for games? Do you want to branch out into something new?
Future Aspirations in TV and Game Audio
00:36:17
Speaker
Are there new challenges that you're interested in That's a really good question. I feel like the pipe dream for me, um even though...
00:36:27
Speaker
all the creative industries are crumbling even though the animation industry is crumbling i would love to work on an animated tv series that I've been that is on a similar sort of vein to things like um earlier shows I mentioned about like Adventure Time because that was just like one of the main kind of sources of inspiration. And my background has mostly come from like linear writing for stuff. So that would be like, I think, something in the future that I would love to explore if it was a possibility. But in terms of like game spaces, um yeah, like I think just maintaining a small like games team and like collaborating
00:37:11
Speaker
on those sorts of projects is probably like the sort of thing that works best for me um I think like on the main projects I'm working on at the moment the core teams are anywhere between either just us two through to like four to five people tops And I feel like I work quite well in those spaces just because it's really easy to kind of check in with each person where possible and kind of have like a closer collaborative relationship from there. I think like...
00:37:50
Speaker
turns Typically, just from my experience, like the smaller the team, the better it has been for just bouncing off ideas and feeling like you have kind of more of a footprint on the game in a way. Like it feels like you're a bigger part of it in a way.
00:38:10
Speaker
Did you feel difficulty with that, with Monster's Expedition? Um, yeah, I mean, that was interesting because I think like, um, the teams, like, I think I remember it changed in numerous ways. And, you know, I do want to like, if it's okay to do like shout out the folks, um, during the pre-production process, like some of those folks I've ended up working with later on.
00:38:36
Speaker
and like I've really helped shape um what I wanted to see in like game dev sort of spaces. um But um yeah, I um think like as long as I have a couple of points of call for who to talk to with music stuff and like audio implementation, it's usually okay. Like I have definitely worked with um a bigger team post Monsters Expedition.
00:39:07
Speaker
um So my kind of method is like just having specific people to talk to without having the pressure to talk to um others who aren't part of the audio workflow in a way. So it's like not too bad in that kind of sense. Like it's definitely like a workable thing for me to work in like bigger teams. Definitely not a brawl out. Don't worry. but um But yeah, like my preference has always just been in like um smaller teams. um
00:39:39
Speaker
I think that's just how I feel like I've always worked best anyway. Yeah. And has there been anything you've done since Monster Expedition that you're particularly proud of or you want to like talk about the development
Creative Freedom and Personal Projects
00:39:51
Speaker
of? here Yeah, I think there's like a couple of projects that I think like have expanded into like stuff that has hope hopefully kind of pushed me towards like just being hopefully better in how I approach like say like implementing music and audio stuff. um Like Salty Chronicles, for example, was like, would say my most ambitious narrative.
00:40:19
Speaker
sort of project because of just like how much there was in the game. A lot of like dotting between like numerous music points and having just like massive F mod events to kind of host each um music for you an island and like kind of like having um numerous sort of narrative points to bounce off between and there was a lot of there was like six to seven hours of music in total um or something so I think like um that sort of thing has really kind of pushed me into like figuring out how I worked like specifically when writing for hybrid instrumentation and palettes like I think that was like the first time i kind of pushed towards like ah more cross between like synthetic um writing for music and um traditional like having more like strings and brass in there for example
00:41:24
Speaker
And then there's um the ongoing collaborations and with the folks at Hollow Ponds. So with Flock and Wilmot Works It Out. ah Flock specifically was one of the first projects in a while where I've only just worked on the music. And we had a shout out to my friend Dan dan Pugsley um doing sound design for Flock. And that was really interesting as a good It was good and interesting as a learning process just because like it was the first time I had another audio person to kind of bounce off ideas with and have some kind of I guess rest towards like um like the implementation side of things but also having a more like collaborative approach on where we can go in terms of um approaching how music would like play back during certain events and
00:42:20
Speaker
um I think had some slight like sound design contributions to it or like voice emotes but not loads but um okay I think I feel like Flock is probably one of the soundtracks where I feel most comfortable with establishing its kind of palette um and I was initially like I wasn't sure whether to like kind of homage like Hohokam in some way or another because I didn't want to just make it like a too much of a pastiche but then one of my friends who had previously worked on Hohokam enabled me anyway I remember so I kind of just like lent into it
00:43:03
Speaker
um So yeah I think like from there onwards, i I think I became a bit more confident and also i think what i appreciated with the collaborations on both Flock and then like Wilmot works it out is that I had like a lot of trust put into me when it came to approaching music stuff.
00:43:24
Speaker
um With Wilmot Works It Out it was a quicker turnaround than I'm used to. i don't do that often because that is just not my speed. um But a lot of the work on Wilmot Works It Out was um music that um I hadn't initially like made or conceptualized for smaller um or personal projects from 10 plus years ago. and they're a bit weirder they're a bit proggier and I had a chance to have those come to life in the game and nobody like stopped me from those basically like nobody made it told me to be like make it less proggy please make it more commercial etc I just got no notes and
00:44:17
Speaker
during that production and that was like really reassuring in some ways or another just in terms of like having that kind of trust in what I was making and yeah I think like it kind of reassured me that there's like hopefully a space the the audio sphere for just weird, um, time signature, pushy sort of, um, pieces of work, like in the recent Wilmot soundtrack.
00:44:51
Speaker
Awesome. Do you have any questions for us? I have a couple. um so the first question I thought, and you know, this doesn't have to be me, and this is a good chance to shout out the other good audio folks who have worked on other Draknek games, um but what's been a most favourite audio or musical moment across the games from the yeah from the games that you've put out as Draknek? And this can be either developed or published.
Favorite Audio Moments in Draknek Games
00:45:21
Speaker
Hmm. I mean, I think that the two that come to mind are um the the title drop on Monster Expedition. Yep. And the theme song for Spooky Express. Yeah, those are those are the two. um As soon as Alan started to go first, I immediately thought I'm going to need to come up with a new answer because he's just going to take those two.
00:45:47
Speaker
um i will say... Maybe a little bit of a curveball. I really like the how the music contributes to the atmosphere in Bonfire Peaks.
00:46:01
Speaker
m um So Corey, who directed and did most of the development of ah that that game and its DLC, also did the music himself. He's also a musician. Oh, nice, yeah. um it's It's very moody and just atmospheric, and I think it really sells the narrative theme of that game really, really well.
00:46:25
Speaker
um i Additionally, the fact that the DLC is a little... the The three DLC chapters have a brighter color palette and therefore have a brighter musical palette, I think really works really well.
00:46:41
Speaker
But like Alan said, it really it really is the two themes. It is the theme of monsters when you get the title card drop and everything is timed perfectly. And then it is um Priscilla just going off in a corner for a day and then coming back and saying, I wrote a lyrical theme for...
00:47:02
Speaker
Spooky Express, here you go. yeah that's great. That's something I want to like work on on future stuff. I'm not so much of a songwriter um and I feel like that is like a slightly kind of weaker point when it comes to um the things that I work on so um I don't know when I'll be doing stuff like that. Hopefully in like the next couple of years or something. But yeah, um it sounds like Priscilla is kind of just on it when it comes to setting the vibes of games like spooky spooky express bru i mean i think that also spooky express was just generally um exactly her vibe to begin with o so i think that definitely helps that it was already a game that was like basically custom designed for her sensibilities
00:48:01
Speaker
I can't remember the name of the manga, but like that hole in the wall, it was made for me. Yes, yep, yep. You know, when there's a game project or just any sort of thing that you find that resonates with you. That manga is a little bit more horror than Spooky Express, but yes. Oh yeah, absolutely. But it's just the same energy. like Apply that to the non-horror games.
00:48:27
Speaker
Yes, no, for sure. Coming up next from Janik, Jinjoo Express. Oh my god, no. I mean, I'm i'm awful um pushing towards, this is going to be very controversial for me to say maybe, but pushing the anti-cozy pipeline.
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's going to that that ah if you if you want an M-rated puzzle game that isn't offensive, that's one way to do it, is just go all in on like body horror.
00:49:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. i mean, why not? um Yeah, I think I'm like, obviously, I'm not going to be able to talk much about the newer projects I'm on for like a long while.
Exploring New Audio Aesthetics
00:49:13
Speaker
But one of the games I'm working on actively is um extremely different, I think, from what people have usually heard from me in past games.
00:49:25
Speaker
like I'm just looking forward to be able to share that when that's ready um it's just already gonna be a lot more nicely experimental and less cozy more nasty soing yeah we'll see we'll see um I do have another question and hopefully this is phrased okay but feel free to ask me to rephrase but um what is something that Eve if you would like to see or rather hear be encouraged on like a musical or audible front In future puzzle games. Or future puzzle spaces. Like whether that's like a dynamic.
00:50:12
Speaker
Kind of thing. That you haven't heard try yet. Or want to hear more of. That kind of thing. um So personally. i think that.
00:50:23
Speaker
ah Audio for puzzle games. Is generally pretty hard. Just because. So much of the gameplay takes place. Inside your head. And you don't usually want.
00:50:36
Speaker
your brain to be so focused on um like melody when you're trying to come up with like a practical solution at the same time even though my brain like i'm ah i'm a musician by like by growing up so i'm Like, I am always like, give me melody. But then when puzzle games are in place, it's like, all right, no, no. no no Turn the volume down. i need to focus. Enough of that. Yes. um I do think, though, so so dynamic so dynamic music yeah dynamic music is something that I think works really well. what i
00:51:17
Speaker
i feel like there's room for a puzzle game that utilizes the dynamic of music as part of the solution.
00:51:29
Speaker
um such as like, what if the solution to every puzzle is involves like a musical scale?
00:51:41
Speaker
And so by hearing, like you don't need to know the music to do it, but like the music can provide an extra avenue of either validation you know,
00:51:54
Speaker
um like sanity check or something about your... Anyways, this this is all very vague and I apologize, but like, I'm just thinking about like... mean, like kind of similar to that, Can of Wormholes does something similar, which I don't think I consciously picked up on while I was playing the game, but it's constantly doing like a look ahead of like...
00:52:17
Speaker
how many moves are you away from winning the level? And when yeah and it kind of plays escalating sound cues as you do the correct moves to get to the end.
00:52:30
Speaker
Ah, yeah. Okay. And it does it subtly enough that I think you wouldn't really notice it unless you're particularly listening out for it. um But ah yeah, it adds another layer of like dynamicness. And also like it's like a it's congratulating you for solving the level, but before you solve the level, which is very interesting.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah. Like, so I guess it's effectively like a warmup towards like a reassurance for the player being like, you're getting there, you're on the right track sort of thing. Yeah.
00:53:03
Speaker
m That's cool. Um, and for me, yeah, I, I mean, I'm, I'm always interested in seeing dynamic audio. i'm generally, my, my instinct is just to let the composer play. And like, if, if,
00:53:19
Speaker
if they want to explore a weird unusual direction great like and if if they think it works then great i'll support that um i i'm not enough of a music person to ever like really suggest a direction um and so like i i think that's part of why i am inclined to just leave it to whoever we're working with and go like hey do do your thing but Yeah, I think, um yeah, i'm i'm I'm always going to be happy for somebody to like have an idea and go like, well, this is a bit unorthodox, but what about this?
00:53:53
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, I always like appreciate like that kind of like steer when it comes to like music direction from devs. Like you definitely, you definitely don't have to be like musically inclined or knowledgeable to like have like a gut feeling of like where you want things to go. and having that kind of trust in your audio person is always a nice way to go about it.
00:54:24
Speaker
um like I'm sure that there's always like a side of like an extreme side where like I think the lack of direction is where I would get stuck if I was just told to be like good like play this game good luck and then just like like that's where mean I think for Monsters Expedition Ben was giving you more of the feedback and direction than I was Yeah, yeah. At the time, like, I appreciate you, Ben, if you're listening, for the conversations that we had over that time for working on the game. Like, I think, yeah, that kind of bounce off point with anyone I'm working with is always nice help for getting those, like, right stairs in. Like, I'm always happy to, like, yeah, getting any sort of music brief and, like, an idea of the kind of palette or, like, the...
00:55:15
Speaker
art concepts I always like seeing art concepts when it comes to um seeing the initial sort of um game and like I'm a sucker for playlists people are usually a bit weird about sending references to audio folks but I love them please give me them um so like that sort of thing is always just nice initial steers and then I can just do my own thing until I can then bat off with the either the developer or the narrative person that I'm working with and going from there so yeah no I think those are that good approaches nonetheless awesome if there are any other questions you have uh let us know otherwise we can wrap up
00:55:59
Speaker
I think I'm all good. I don't have um many other notes. Awesome. Cool. Thank you again for joining us. It's been lovely to catch up with you. Yeah, no, it's been really, really good. um Again, it's it's been really, it's been so long and it's been nice to like get my brain out the sieve to try and remember the things I like have done on. Can you believe that Amasa's expedition is almost five and a half years old?
00:56:29
Speaker
i I mean, I can, but also it's just like the passage, the passage of time now is just so much. Um, yeah so yeah, it's, it's nuts, but yeah, that feels about right. Um, I feel like I've definitely, I've learned a lot more in terms of, um, audio things from, um, amongst this expedition onwards.
00:56:54
Speaker
And yeah, I feel like whenever I'm next working on good puzzly sort of games, it'll be able to be nice to translate the sort of things I've learned now to those. Awesome. Well, we look forward to seeing your continued work in more games, especially if you end up working on more puzzly games.
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Where can people find you online? Finding me online? not so perceivable online these days, weirdly, just because I'm very burnt out from the internet. Fair. But I am reachable, nonetheless. So um I'm Ellie Rainsbury on pretty much met many of the platforms that you think of. um Blue Sky and Instagram are probably the most reachable.
00:57:48
Speaker
places for me these days and my music is available on band camp so that's just my name ellie rainsbury.bandcamp.com and that's pretty much i guess the main music platform to support me awesome Well, thank you very much. And thank you for listening to the Dracneck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoisemusic.com.
00:58:14
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
00:58:33
Speaker
you