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Episode 39: Spooky Express Retrospective
231 Plays9 days ago
In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by the majority of the development team behind our recently released game Spooky Express. Listen to over an hour of development anecdotes and discussion about how the game came to be! This episode contains minor spoilers.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to a very special episode of the Dracneck and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. For this large roundtable discussion, I'm Seren, the producer at Dracneck and Friends, and I'm joined first, as always, by Alan Hazelden, the head Dracneck at Dracneck and Friends.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hey there.
Meet the Team Behind 'Spooky Express'
00:00:41
Speaker
And most of the development team of our recently released game, Spooky Express. Going down the line, we have Ben Wilson. Hi, hello.
00:00:51
Speaker
And what did you do on the project? Hi, I'm Ben, and I was the producer on Spooky Express. ah We have Lucas. Hello. And what did you do on the project?
00:01:04
Speaker
I'm the puzzle designer, level designer. And we have ben d Hello, lead programmer. And we have Phoenix. Hello, um also programmer um and UI, UX.
00:01:20
Speaker
And we have Priscilla. Hello, I'm Priscilla. I did the audio, the sound, and the music. Awesome. So this isn't everyone, but this is as many people as we could get on one call.
00:01:34
Speaker
So bear with us as we learn to have a fun conversation with the seven of us. A warning. Spooky Express just came out and there's nothing spookier than
Spoiler Warning and Game Development Overview
00:01:46
Speaker
spoilers. However, we're going to talk very openly about the development of this game. So if you are worried about spoilers that are not just puzzle solutions, ah you can leave this episode play ah marked as in progress in your podcast player of choice and then return to this once you complete the game.
00:02:06
Speaker
All right. With that out of the way, Alan, do you want to refresh people's memories?
Origin of 'Spooky Express'
00:02:12
Speaker
What was the impetus for starting this project? a Well, we had to make something, didn't we?
00:02:19
Speaker
And we we were throwing a bunch of ideas around, and one of them was a spooky follow-up to Cosmic Express. And we asked a bunch of people to like, hey, can you do some mock-ups or concept art for this specific idea or that specific idea?
00:02:35
Speaker
And of those, ah we really liked the mock-up that Lucy made of the Spooky Express concept of...
00:02:46
Speaker
zombies and vampires in a graveyard setting you have to pick them up and drop them off at coffins and graves. And so yeah, like it was it was one of many ideas and then it was the idea and then we decided to make it.
00:02:59
Speaker
After a pit stop to learn Godot in the electrifying incident. Yes. So... this is This is fun because actually ah listeners to the podcast will probably heard this story.
00:03:15
Speaker
But just as a recap, ah what led to bringing
Puzzle Design and Challenges
00:03:19
Speaker
Lucas up? I knew that I would not have the bandwidth to make all the puzzles needed for a game of the scope on my own, being distracted by other things. And Lucas is a fantastic puzzle designer.
00:03:34
Speaker
So i yeah, we we reached out. was like, hey, do you want to draw make puzzles for game? Poor Lucas. Lucas loved it.
00:03:45
Speaker
ah Yeah, Lucas, did you love it? I mean, i was terrified at first because this was ah game a game coming from Cosmic Express and I'm really bad at Cosmic Express. So it was like, okay, I really want to work with you, but I'm not sure I can deal with line drawing puzzles at all. I don't but feel like in my brain was wired to to make them, but it was really smooth experience. Yeah.
00:04:10
Speaker
As someone who did not design levels for either game, i will say that I think that the levels in Spooky Express are at least just as good as the ones in Cosmic Express.
00:04:22
Speaker
Oh, they are better. i That's what it means. I literally just posted yesterday or last night ah that this game is good because when I'm testing it, I often forget that I'm testing it because I just start solving puzzles.
00:04:38
Speaker
um and So even after a year of this, I'm still just like, oh, puzzles. Yeah, because I think we've we've touched on it in previous podcasts, but it's worth saying close to the start of the episode.
00:04:50
Speaker
This game is so much more approachable than Cosmic Express, and it's so much deeper and more interesting. like The puzzle mechanics go to much more interesting places, and we have just learned a lot in the past eight years about making games that onboard nicely while still getting up to some really tricky puzzles that aren't so off-puttingly hard.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, I was actually curious about that. I was i was curious about the process of like using these mechanics and specifically for Lucas and Alan, of like how you were developing and and iterating over the same mechanics for the the A section and the B section and the C section.
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah, Lucas, you want to talk a bit about the overall iteration on the ideas? I mean, I guess for the B and C sections that have one more than one car on the train, are the process has been completely different.
00:05:42
Speaker
I think ah it's maybe more interesting because it was longer the process of working on the main puzzles of the game. And i I guess like possibly like every other puzzle game I've worked on is just a process of ah facing the mechanics, experimenting with them and being able to to dissect them in little pieces and just understanding that ah maybe two lessons that felt really similar are completely different ideas that need its own puzzle. So you can add up end up with much smaller puzzles that focus on ah very small ideas and that are not repeated.
00:06:20
Speaker
So it's just a process of understanding that a puzzle that I made month three, maybe during month five, I understand that there are more ideas contained that puzzle and I need to just break but break into something else.
00:06:35
Speaker
And I guess at first I thought that I wasn't going to be making 200 puzzles and maybe only half of them, but they continue to come to pop up because the ideas were there all the time. And I think that's what what's interesting about just submerging into any type of of systems of rules or a puzzle game.
00:06:56
Speaker
And one really noticeable thing about the structure of this game is how, yeah, we don't have any puzzles with multiple train cars until after the end credits.
00:07:07
Speaker
Lucas, do you remember at what point we made that decision to focus on single car levels for the majority of the game? I think very early, we ah at first we focused on the just just the first three level packs of the game and just focusing on that, just me trying to get the hang of these levels that are probably, since the the mechanics aren't that complex at that point, it is mostly mostly similar to some ah Cosmic Express ideas.
00:07:36
Speaker
Since i I needed to focus on that to understand things, we we didn't end up with that many multicart levels. So we just saw the potential of, okay, we have a dozen of of levels for each level pack without multicars. Maybe they are not ah part of the main path at all.
00:07:54
Speaker
And that's the first that time we consider that possibility. Yeah, and I think at some point we were thinking like, oh, you'll beat the single car levels for an area and that will unlock the multi-car levels for the area.
00:08:07
Speaker
But yeah, eventually we just put it post-game after the credits and I think it works well there. Hmm. Yeah, I think there are a lot of complex ideas there that help a lot in pacing, just understanding the whole basics.
00:08:20
Speaker
And I think also because the game, ah in comparison to Cosmic Express, this ah feels more vertical. Like every mechanic has a lot of interesting space with every other mechanic.
00:08:32
Speaker
While in Cosmic Express, I feel like the the worlds were kind of separated and were not one-off mechanics, but they were less intersected ah as they are here. So it is useful to actually understand all the infrequencies of the mechanics and then just going going in this extra layer of complexity.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, honestly, I think that the, like, from a personal perspective, I think that the onboarding of new mechanics works remarkably well. I think that that is probably the thing that I think that Cosmic Express is weakest at.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I think that this game does, like especially by thoughtfully curating like the first two to three levels of every level pack around making sure that you understand the implications of the new mechanic before throwing it in with other mechanics. I really do think that that goes a long way.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah, I'm surprised by how well the initial um levels for each section, from my own experience watching other people play through it, how they can explain everything so thoroughly while also still being sizable puzzles in their own right.
00:09:45
Speaker
um I think the pacing is is done very well. There's sort of a new thing we're doing with this game, right? but We have several gated unlocks of hardware progressively harder levels.
00:09:55
Speaker
You sort of touched on that. one One issue we had in Cosmic Express, right, was that you got access to all the hardest levels in the first level pack and people would just some people would just get stuck for hours. People are very stubborn.
00:10:11
Speaker
ah So we're sort of saving them from themselves now. Yeah. And i I think that really contributed to the character of Cosmic Express. I don't think it was a good design decision necessarily, but it was
Game Mechanics and Difficulty Curve
00:10:25
Speaker
one that like ah that that feels cohesive what with what the overall experience of Cosmic Express is, but that would not feel cohesive with what this game is. Hmm.
00:10:36
Speaker
Great. Yeah. don't really get what you mean. Well, like, I feel like Cosmic Express, the levels are, are, are like inherently hard. And like, you have to bash your head against this.
00:10:50
Speaker
Like, it's just a lot of options and you have to like, just try a bunch of stuff until you, until you progress rather than there's a lot of hard. Yeah. There's a lot of big Cosmic Express levels that are hard, but,
00:11:05
Speaker
it's very tricky to have the like insight of like, oh, well, I just need to do this. Also that game didn't have hints. um So that's another way that that game was hard.
00:11:16
Speaker
The hints are so nice. Yes, i was I was going to say, ah the the concept of the hint of showing you one very specifically curated portion of the solution is a very elegant way to handle it.
00:11:33
Speaker
Because you can't just show what the end state looks like to someone because that is the solution. That's not a hint. That's a guide. So I think that like showing, oh, well, you're going to need to turn turn here, work back from there is like a really good way, I think, especially to be able to rip someone out of their puzzle blinders and allow them to recontextualize knowing a part of the solution. Like having having seen that in action and watched people play with the hints, let alone use the hints on some of the latest levels in the game.
00:12:08
Speaker
I think that as a hint system, it works very well. I don't remember if I said this on the podcast before, but so um for Cosmic Express, I actually did do exactly this as a hint system via social media.
00:12:21
Speaker
I would say like, hey, if you're feeling stuck on a Cosmic Express puzzle, like send me a message and I'll send you a photo of that level with some crucial track highlighted.
00:12:32
Speaker
I remember you talking about that as the hint system was getting implemented as like, we should do that. It'd be cool if you could like appear in someone's game and be like, hey, you look stuck.
00:12:45
Speaker
Just have a if a phone number that crawls the bottom of the screen if the player's been stuck in a level for more than 30 minutes. 1-800, drag that.
00:12:54
Speaker
Exactly. Premium phone number. Yeah, exactly. This will this will be $5 a minute. Yeah. very The hint line. We got to make profit somehow. You press the hint button and it automatically starts calling out.
00:13:09
Speaker
me and like I mean, this is this just making me think of the joke in Monkey Island 2 where you in-game call the hit line. But beyond that, you don't actually want Alan over your shoulder while you're playing this game because he will just laugh at you.
00:13:28
Speaker
No, that was Cosmic Express Alan. ah Spooky Express Alan is much friendlier. Citation needed. Well, I feel like Spooky Express Alan would be more like... Hmm, that's interesting.
00:13:39
Speaker
And then not explain, like, why. let me take a step back. I think listeners to the podcast, Alan would be pretty kind. I think people on this podcast recording right now, he would cackle.
00:13:57
Speaker
Just think about it harder. You'll get there. I believe in you.
00:14:02
Speaker
I will say one of the best feelings is when you are like banging your head against a puzzle and then you just like set the controller down for five minutes and then you pick it up and do in one. Like that's a great feeling.
00:14:15
Speaker
that's the real hint like sometimes when i when i started using when i first came onto this project and i like started using the hints for playing the game i originally was like i don't like these hints this hint system doesn't work and it took me so long to like actually like understand like oh you never told me this um It just took me a little bit to like, because you'd get to that frustrated point and you'd sort of be beating your head against the thing and then you click the hint button, which sort of you're conditioned to think of as a thing that will give you like immediate relief for your like anguish, which it doesn't. These hints don't do that. They like yeah give you a nudge towards some insight that maybe you don't have yet.
00:14:59
Speaker
And so you do need to like sit with it for a bit. like It's not a hint where you immediately like, oh, it's just it's not like a um you know like a spelling mistake, like red underline thing where it just tells you what you've done wrong immediately. It's like a little nudge towards an insight.
00:15:16
Speaker
And so it takes ah little bit to like... appreciate the... I think once you get that, though, it's like, okay, I've misunderstood something and gotten something fundamentally wrong and I need to just sit with this for a little bit longer. And that's like a pretty good way to do hints.
00:15:31
Speaker
i I mean, I'll point out that if it gave you the instant relief and kind of gave you the red highlight underline, then that robs you of the playing the game, which is which is finding the solution yourself. Oh, absolutely. i mean, it's not the thing that I would have wanted. It's like, what's that saying about how the player doesn't really necessarily know what they...
00:15:54
Speaker
need but they know what they want they might know what the problem is but they definitely don't know the solution um and so like it's the the reflexive thought i guess on my first like playthrough of the game was like oh no i need to still think like you know like it's not just gonna like give me a gimme um but like i i've grown to appreciate that but
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah, it cuts down the possibility space, I guess you could say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah The nerdy way of saying it. Yeah. but but But to be fair, I think in that first playthrough you had, I was much less generous with hints. And in the last pass I did with them, I thought about what what do they were actually telling the hints. And I saw the potential of them being a bit longer just for...
00:16:43
Speaker
for creating that relief without just spoiling the the whole solution. So I think they are better, but I still have to really understand the point of what a hint, how how a hint impacts a player.
00:16:56
Speaker
I think you've done a really good job of like revealing the bit of track that is like the, you sort of stepped into like empathetically stepped into a stuck player's head and tried to imagine the bit that would most openly reveal to them the idea they haven't gotten.
00:17:15
Speaker
Like, you know, the sort of, here's the thing with this level that you are probably missing if you haven't solved this already. And I think that's it very skillfully done. I think you could play through the entire game with hints on for every single level and still come out of it feeling like you've earned your win, which I think is is as a nice feeling.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, i I think that's a good sign of like a well-designed hint system because, yeah, i I'm like typically a person who's like, I will not use hints. I will not blah, blah,
00:17:47
Speaker
Like, but I've been turning on hints while playing this game. And like, sometimes I turn the hints on and I'm like, well, does it help me? Yeah. um i will I will say the the most owned I've ever felt playing a puzzle game was this game with one of the hints where oh yeah i I was like bashing my head. i had like almost It it had had appeared like I had almost solved the puzzle.
00:18:15
Speaker
i turned I finally caved. I turned on the hint. The hint underlined a portion of track that had already been there. And I'm like... I'm owned. And then it i took it turned out that what it actually wanted me to do, what the hint was actually saying was ah that I needed to be doing that path of track from the other direction. From the other side, yeah. Because it doesn't necessarily tell you which direction. And that was at by the end, I was just like, skill issue, I know, but you
00:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, the we we discussed like, oh, should the should the hint show directionality? It's so much funnier that it doesn't. Yeah. i think i think it being like a nice clean UI way of showing it.
00:19:01
Speaker
I think there's a world where we did, but like I, that moment you're describing is admittedly very, very funny. Yes, it's it is a much funnier bit that it does not show that at all.
00:19:12
Speaker
I like that, like, Saran, what you were saying about Alan laughing. like yeah we Alan's not laughing in your face when you ask for a hint, but what is happening is that um you click on a button when you when you need help and something happens that which Alan finds funny.
00:19:28
Speaker
yeah Alan, like the spirit of Alan laughing is in all of Draconex published games. Right, right. Like this is one of the only constants between every single game Draconex has published is somewhere in the game, there is a moment where I could just picture Alan off screen laughing at me.
00:19:49
Speaker
Sure. Sort of like a capricious genie or something. Yeah, some some little gremlin. um How long until we actually have a game with Alan laughing at you wow weve we Well, discussed.
00:20:05
Speaker
I know. It's been the ideas document. It's been floating around for years. I didn't want to say... Hey, yes. We shouldn't explicitly talk about games that haven't been greenlit, but I will so i will say that the upside-down Alan Slack emote should see the light of day somewhere else.
00:20:29
Speaker
Maybe that should be the Thinky Puzzle Discord. I use that a fair amount, and it is and it is one of my favorite emotes of all time. think i got that from...
00:20:41
Speaker
Was it Dicey? You did like a project with Dicey, right? Yes, maybe maybe when we were chatting, he made that. um well no yeah Oh no, yes, he, it was in that project files, he just added a photo of my face, yes.
00:20:58
Speaker
This is a slight digression from Spooky Express. Yes, I mean. Well, you know, we could always add, like, you know, for the Spooky Express DLC, we could always add a little gremlin that is explicitly named Alan. And I could write a little song about, like, this is gremlin named Alan. He's going to happily solve all your puzzles.
00:21:19
Speaker
ah Just, ah yeah. ah um but One thing I wanted to ask um with everyone here, ah we talked about this a bit for the people here that were on the ah electrifying incident call, ah that that big wrap up, which went off the rails way faster than this one did.
Working with the Godot Engine
00:21:38
Speaker
How was everyone's experience in Godot for this? This is the first big project that we spent like a full development cycle start to finish in Godot, not just like a six week basically jam with some polish.
00:21:51
Speaker
I probably touched Godot the least of everyone um on this call. but What are you talking about? Ben W and I are here. Okay, fine. i did I wasn't in the project a lot, but compared to Electrion Instant, that was Godot 4.3. This was 4.5.
00:22:09
Speaker
This project was so much more stable, had a lot of quality of life stuff that I was really happy to see compared to 4.3. four point three Yeah, I mean, I'll say like, I was just impressed off the bat that like, it can work with FMOD.
00:22:24
Speaker
Like, I'm pretty sure we talked about this a bit whenever I was on previously. But um yeah, just the fact that it can run with FMOD and like, all things considered, like very few issues with it.
00:22:38
Speaker
It just works. They were very good. The Godot team was very good about like helping with some bugs that popped up early on. and Yeah, like, on on my end, I have no complaints. Like, um I think like one of the nicest things came in a little bit later, um when we started implementing the item taps.
00:22:59
Speaker
I think Phoenix you and and Ben, you both worked on that tool together. Is that right? the ah i think i just I think I was the only one that was doing the tap, if I remember. i You can correct me I'm wrong, Ben, but I don't.
00:23:12
Speaker
I think think i was at least I was setting up the tools in Godot to allow for you to change the sound effects for stuff easier. Yeah, that was that was great.
00:23:24
Speaker
I'm like, oh, we should do that like day one for all the sounds on the next game. Just like have that available because it was so nice to just be able to like hook things up without having to like message people like, hey, can you say this? For the game guys in the audience, can you like describe what it was that you implemented that was convenient?
00:23:46
Speaker
um Yeah. So that was specifically the one thing that I find consistently um so nice about Godot is just how easy it is to set up tooling, um which is fantastic for something like this, where we have 80 different props or 60 different props or something like that, that all are like tappable.
00:24:05
Speaker
So all of them are supposed to be having their own collision box and model and sound effects that are all different. And that's a pain to go through each individual one and change. And so I set up a right-click context option in the File Explorer that allows you to just swap out those sound effects in the Explorer itself.
00:24:28
Speaker
that was relatively quick to get up and going. Yeah, yeah. It made it so quick for me to start, like, getting things into the game and um being able to test it and make sure it sounded good in context and, like, figuring out, like, how many variations I actually needed. um Because, yeah, it's like, you know, there's, like, different...
00:24:50
Speaker
ah variations on like similar props because of like how they're ah put together in the clusters where there's like multiple elements involved and that kind of thing. So it was really, really useful to be able to just like pop those in myself and and test and just like really get into the groove with it.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah. And then Ben was super helpful with going through the FMA documentation and other nonsense like that to figure out what was happening there. ah So I didn't do anything on it, but I'm happy to take credit.
00:25:24
Speaker
Going through documentation is is work. yeah Looking at the FMOD API is not my favorite thing in the world, personally.
00:25:36
Speaker
But i I will say, or I guess to frame it as a question, do you think, Priscilla, that having... sort of this tooling and having especially other people on the team who are able to help you with the F mod implementation and the technical side of it.
00:25:53
Speaker
ah Is that what led to, do you think there being just so much music in this game?
Crafting the Soundtrack and Sound Effects
00:26:00
Speaker
um yeah Yeah. I mean, like with my familiarity with mod, just like in terms of using the program itself, like I,
00:26:11
Speaker
so Okay, sorry. I'm trying to think of the best way to approach this question. So... Initially, first go on this game, um my initial thought was to do kind of what I've done in the past on puzzle games, which is where like each area has like one kind of core theme and the music like changes a bit depending on like how difficult the puzzle is or like you know how far within the solution you've progressed. like If there's like a way to like kind of um track how close you are to getting a solution and that kind thing.
00:26:47
Speaker
But with the number of puzzles there were and just the how difficult it would kind of be to like precisely be like, oh, you're 75 percent of the way to a solution or whatever, because there is a little bit of variability um with some of the puzzles.
00:27:03
Speaker
I decided like, actually, i think I'm going to kind of take a jukebox approach to this one and just like come up with a ah good number of songs and have those on rotation so that you're not getting tired of what you're listening to so quickly.
00:27:22
Speaker
And so that's kind of where I came to the decision of like, rather than doing like one song per area that like has a bunch of like layers that come in and out, like to have just a bunch of really fun, spooky Halloween, like Saturday morning cartoon Halloween special style music, plus some like other stuff that's like a little more like Silent Hill-y or whatever. But um ah so that's like kind of where that kind of design choice came from.
00:27:48
Speaker
And then something I did kind of later on as i like, was thinking about, you know, how I wanted to structure things like the the soundtrack or whatever, i decided to pick a piece of music to um kind of highlight in each area. So rather than having just like one song that plays the whole time, um you have like a certain percentage chance higher of hearing one particular song in each area.
00:28:15
Speaker
which is the kind of like core song for the area. So like in the pumpkin patch, the, um the core song is the jack-o'-lantern jam, which is like banjo and, uh, washtub bass and singing saw and stuff. Um, so very like appropriate for hanging out in a pumpkin patch, um, and stuff like that. So I just kind of like pulled out individual tracks, uh, for each area and made those kind of like, this is the,
00:28:41
Speaker
kind of ah mascot song for this area. um And then the rest of the time is just like a bunch of fun tunes that kind of cycle. And, ah you know, each area has like a different kind of set of songs. So you might not hear one song in one area, but you'll hear it in like two others or whatever. So that that's kind of how I balanced it. Because I really wanted to try to give people like the most fun listening experience.
00:29:04
Speaker
So, yeah. I have a question about the music. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, like, what your, i don't know if you this is your process or anything like it, but like, did you have like a sort of like thematic mood board for like the, what you sort of,
00:29:22
Speaker
wanted to bring to the soundtrack? Because there's like so many different like styles and sort of tones, but like yeah, I don't know. like do you have Did you have like a document somewhere when you started and it had a bunch of like, oh yeah, remember this like theme from this film or whatever, or this cartoon?
00:29:44
Speaker
I want to know what you were thinking about when you started. but Yeah, so when I started, like, I definitely, um a lot of times what I'll do when starting a project is, like, throw together a playlist of, like, songs that I think are like, close to the kind of, like, intent that I want to, like, edge towards.
00:30:07
Speaker
And so, um yeah, I, like, went through and found just, like, so many different things that I, because I'm a big Halloween person, I've noticed that.
00:30:19
Speaker
Yeah, I, you know, uh, I'm known for enjoying spooky things. And so a lot of like, games, you know, that I really have enjoyed in the past have been kind of like spooky, or like, I really like when games have like a random spooky element in them. So like,
00:30:37
Speaker
you know I really enjoyed I still need to go back and finish it. i can't believe we haven't finished it yet. but like um I played ah Luigi's Mansion 3 in co-op mode and that is really, really fun. um i love Some of my favorite ah songs from Animal Crossing are Dirge.
00:30:57
Speaker
um like just the spooky and like the halloween music that plays when halloween happens and in animal crossing that kind of thing lavender town and pokemon like there's so many like wonderful spooky kind of things um and i also you know like listened to some of the like goosebumps music from like you know the the uh movies and the tv show and and the games um as well and yeah and so i kind of just like listen to a bunch of things to be like right this is kind of like these are the things people expect to hear you know spooky piano and marimba and like weird instruments like theremin and um singing saw and that kind of thing and like um
00:31:42
Speaker
kind of like kept, ah you know, just used that to remind myself of like, here's kind of the the things you can reach for and have it work pretty, pretty easily. And then like, as with most projects, like I make that playlist and I look at it and listen to it like once and then I like never look at it again.
00:32:01
Speaker
um uh because i don't want like i never want to like be too close to anything like i think that's like such a fear of like accidentally like you know listening to something and then being like oh this melody is too close i have to change it or whatever so like as soon as i'm done getting my initial dose of like here's kind of the things people are used to hearing in this mode i like back off completely and just kind of like go off and and squirrel away and play with all my ah assorted instruments um you have this playlist that like yeah exists to like get you in the correct zone and then you discard it completely so that yeah yeah i like yeah it's like uh uh parachuting out of an airplane after listening to it once it's like all right thank you yeah so is a is a pumpkin patch a real thing
00:32:56
Speaker
so there's North Americans
Cultural Insights and Art Design
00:32:58
Speaker
on the call. What? Have you never been to a pumpkin patch? It's not really a thing here, right? It's absolutely not a thing. I'm going to a pump pumpkin patch in a week. This is a thing that is real. So yeah, pumpkins don't really grow in the UK.
00:33:15
Speaker
Really? No, they grow. My mum has pumpkins in her allotment. Then what the hell are you... let ah We just aren't into Halloween in the same way that Americans are into Halloween. like me The actual answer is they take up a ton of space.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah, they are big. so So it's a place you go to to get pumpkins. Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah. it's's It's basically a giant farm that's just for pumpkins. Yeah, it's like going to a cornfield for like a corn maze or... They don't have... They they probably don't have corn mazes either. Hey, hold on.
00:33:51
Speaker
I said probably. They probably don't even have corn mazes, you were about to say. I heard it. Yes. yeah Okay. The queen doesn't like corn. Actually, Backwards country. to these poor No, it's not backwards country. It's, you know how much empty freaking space we have in our country relative to yours?
00:34:12
Speaker
It's a lot of empty space. So I will say to to set that, because listeners are probably like losing their mind saying like, we do have pumpkin patches in the UK. They do exist. They're just a lot more rare.
00:34:23
Speaker
And I think what we're talking about specifically when we say pumpkin patch is a place a member of the public can go to. It's like a sort of attraction. You can like, yeah ah you can pick your own pumpkins. You can like take pictures like with giant pumpkins and Bales of hay to sit on. Bales hay. yeah Yeah. Probably a horse-drawn carriage kind situation.
00:34:45
Speaker
A cheesy billboard off the highway. in a lot of... yeah I would say, in most of the country by landmass, you're probably, during October, not more than 90 minutes away from a pumpkin patch. Yeah. but never Even here in Montreal, um there's like... ah I don't have a car, so i can't get out there. But um ah when I was in a car last fall...
00:35:13
Speaker
um There were signs everywhere for a corn maze. So they have them up here, too. um But they were definitely more common where I'm from originally in the rural south of the United States. yeah I mean, rural the rural south and the Midwest is what I'm thinking of when I'm talking about like my landmass, like the vast majority of the country.
00:35:34
Speaker
What else are you going to do with that land? And like, it's a way for a farmer to bring in... Corn and soybeans. Yeah. And then I've got bad news for farmers. I've about soybeans. Oh no. I've got bad news about both, unfortunately. Anyways.
00:35:48
Speaker
um but that did out that yeah so we're making our next game about agriculture, right? Is that what yeah yeah we're talking about? Yeah. we it's It's all going to be agriculture and ah weirdly tariffs. Yeah.
00:36:00
Speaker
oh but the here's Here's a puzzle game. What does 150% mean? no.
00:36:10
Speaker
ah it sounds like a Layton-like. Yeah, I mean, look, Alan. Alan, listen it here. If we're throwing out pitches, Layton-like.
00:36:25
Speaker
Those games are just bad, sorry. They're not systemic. And you need to be systemic to be a good puzzle game. No. I feel the aircraft that is this show dipping and we need to pull up ah and Oh, so now should we so talk about how late we're still adding levels?
00:36:44
Speaker
Lucas, let's talk about how late we've been adding levels. No, no, we're not doing this. No, what levels? no I don't know. See, the thing is that whenever a conversation lulls, Alan and I just get into an argument.
00:36:59
Speaker
this is just how This is just how this all works. Half of you probably experienced this on your own episodes. Um, so, yeah, no, I mean, I'm, I'm super happy with the game. i think that, uh, if I'm being honest, the scope of the game is quite large relative to the other games Draconek has published for the same price. Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:26
Speaker
But it doesn't feel like the scope... Like, it it doesn't feel like the scope just kept creeping and creeping and creeping, even though, like, in some small degrees it did, usually with regards to polish.
00:37:38
Speaker
But, i don't know. It feels like there's just a whole lot of content. Mm-hmm. There's a whole lot of puzzle ideas. Yeah, the the fact that we're able to just have puzzles...
00:37:51
Speaker
completely independently designed and like puzzle script or whatnot, and then just brought in. And then we have like a finished level that is playable and interactable with no input after that is like, that's fantastic.
00:38:05
Speaker
You, you like, you, you can make a game like this with standalone puzzles, but where they need to have like art inputs to bring them up to releasable quality. And like, you can have that and you can have a workable production pipeline, but it's so much better to,
00:38:21
Speaker
not need that to be able to like go like oh we uh like this this level is still a bit of a sticking point difficulty wise and it's on the critical path so it'd be good to change it to not have to go like well we can't change it because it's too late in the production pipeline i think it contributes so much to the to the quality of the overall thing I think like the reason it's so much better value right is that Lucas is a much more efficient puzzle designer. You're right.
00:38:50
Speaker
i'm i'm I'm over the hill. like I like i couldn't i couldn't i couldn't make wash washed walk couldn't make levels as quickly as Lucas can make levels. I'm still alright. I've contributed, I don't know how many puzzles, but i've like we've we gone back and forth on some concepts.
00:39:08
Speaker
and Like five? Five?
00:39:14
Speaker
No, there were a lot. And Alan, you are sometimes really, really fast. just that Sometimes I just feel blocked because there's an unintended solution and maybe I spent like 20 minutes and I feel like, okay, let's just cut this puzzle.
00:39:26
Speaker
And then in a moment, you just find this the specific thing that is actually the what's causing the unintended solution. And that's incredible. I should have done the thing that ended up happening on Bonfire Peaks, where on Bonfire Peaks, I would just use my own. No, on my own, ah when I was making levels for that, would often use my name in the file name for the level.
00:39:50
Speaker
yes. you can track how many Bonfire Peaks levels I made based on that. But I didn't tell Lucas, hey, every time I make a level and send it to you, you've got to keep my name in that file name.
00:40:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's... it's um as i've i've the thing I've told this story before, but doing that was a fun little treat for me because I don't usually exist in like the source code of a project.
00:40:19
Speaker
But for Bonfire Peaks, ah for some for one reason or another, there came a time at the end of that base game's development where I was handling...
00:40:30
Speaker
a bunch of like raw exported files that each one was named but after a level. And I just saw all the internal names. And that's what it dawned on me that like 60% of that game is Alan's.
00:40:44
Speaker
I'm like, oh, Alan, what did you do? And he was like, no, it wasn't. And then he looked at the, he actually like looked at the list. He's like, oh, dang, maybe it was. But no, for this game, it's probably like 10%. Okay.
00:40:57
Speaker
okay I think we should talk about the art. Yeah. So we we don't have Lucy or Adam on this call, unfortunately. but yeah, great work on the art. It's a gorgeous game.
00:41:09
Speaker
it's it's It's so good. it It perfectly hits that exact like mix of spooky and cute. um Yeah, it's it's it's fantastic. um i like Basically, since day one, when I first saw the project, i was just like, ah this is going to be really good.
00:41:30
Speaker
like the first time i saw because like a lot of it was still concept art when i came on um but there were some 3d models that had been made and im just like yeah this rules it's great like the color scheming the the design of the creatures the kind of like proportions of everything um the the way the like props and the the um areas like look like i I remember we had some like iteration on like what props and like how many and and that kind of thing. But like the core overall aesthetic has been like so solid since like day one.
00:42:05
Speaker
And we hardly ever deviated from the actual original concepts, you know? no Lucy pretty much just came in. yeah One take, nailed it. Yeah. yeah yeah there is There's hardly anything else that it's like you can look at the original concepts and you can go, that's the first level.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. And ah yeah and this this is what Alan said at the top was like, we got three or four different game ideas with different concept arts from different artists.
00:42:38
Speaker
And essentially what happened was everything but this one would have needed like another pass or revision. And we just looked at Lucy's we're like, well, that's just the game that were thinking of making. Yeah, you can game from that instantly.
00:42:52
Speaker
and So we were like, ah we should probably just go ahead and make this because it seems like all of this dev was done instantly for us. And then Adam saw the art, basically just nodded and said, got it, and then just started implementing it.
00:43:06
Speaker
And we're like, what? Yeah, it's it's wild how like cohesive and and nice this game looks across the board. We all agree that the zombie is the best passenger in I love the zombie.
00:43:20
Speaker
i My favorite idol for sure is whenever he like bats at his own eyeball. It's so good. It's so good. Also, we do need to call out your sound effects design for the creatures, by the way, Priscilla. Like you just, you landed on trains so quickly.
00:43:39
Speaker
you did and every time i've seen someone play they're like i'm sorry that zombie just say trains and i'm like absolutely did trains yeah it's it was fun i like i love doing silly voices i love using like vo like voice for sound design too like i have a there's a lot of stuff in ah just sprinkled throughout the sound design that just is my voice doing stuff and mixed in with other things but yeah having these little characters to kind of give them these like really short little uh things they say with you know personal personality and stuff like zombie very one track mind said so to speak um you know trains uh when the zombies bump
00:44:27
Speaker
which this is reminding me that I need to go boost that volume and commit that for this because it's not super legible. But when the zombies bump, they also say pains. ah so
00:44:39
Speaker
And then, you know, when they get get to their ah grave, they say graves. um So basically, they they can really only pronounce pronounce like one vowel shape.
00:44:51
Speaker
And they just really have found a way to communicate ah with that. But yeah, it was a lot of fun coming up with kind of what those should sound like. Like the vampire's a bit sassier, you know, um there is the train, you know, kind of a vibe. ah I had just recently seen the Nosferatu movie.
00:45:13
Speaker
so the the zombie connection the vampire does roll ah the r's in most cases because of that movie so ah a little little tidbit uh in there but yeah and then like the humans i just kind of gave like a cutesy kind of like generic yay you know hooray like I'm just happy to be here on this train kind of a vibe the the cultists um ah have a little bit of like a mix of things where it's like some of the stuff they say is stuff I actually recorded myself saying backwards and then reversed the clip Twin Peaks style which I wish i had I have like a notepad with like the words written backwards let me see if I can pull it up
00:45:59
Speaker
um Because I was i was like writing them out phonetically backwards so that I could record takes. Oh yeah, here we go. um Satisfactory was like, irat kafsitas. And so when you hear the cultist be like, satisfactory, it's because it's a reversed clip of me saying irat kafsitas.
00:46:21
Speaker
But Anyway, so stuff like that for the cultist because I wanted to imbue it with some spookiness, but, you know, try to keep it concise. So that was like a quick way to make it sound a little off kilter. And then the demon was just like I created a plug in chain and saved that. And so anytime I record a demon sound effect, I run it through this plug in chain. And it's a lot of it is just me being like, wow. and then running it through the plug-in chain and it makes it sound like it's roaring or whatever.
00:46:51
Speaker
um So, yeah, I had way too much fun of those. And then the humans are just you making silly noises. Yay! Which, you know, ah one of Adam's questions that he wanted us to ask was, did anyone leave any Easter eggs in the game?
00:47:08
Speaker
And I do have one ah for the human passenger ah boarding sounds. Yeah? ah one of the possible, I think there's like I don't remember how many variations, like there's there's quite a few variations for all of the boarding sounds and that kind of thing, but one of the options that the human ah will make when boarding the train, and it's the lowest probability of happening because I didn't want it to happen too often, ah but every once in a while you'll you'll hear the human go, aha! And that is a um that is a reference to the wrestler ricochet. Yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah, wow. ah An AEW wrestler who, like, that's a sound he makes. ah He's, like, a very, like, funny heel wrestler.
00:47:56
Speaker
And, yeah, he'll just come out and be like, aha! And so I referenced that and made a little reference. My favorite ah human arrival ah clip is...
00:48:12
Speaker
ah this This is just going to tell on myself way too much. For many, many, many years, um up until about 2020, exactly ringtone was... um my text delivery ringtone was the voice clip from the super nintendo game super punch out of the very first wrestler who is an old man who's never won he when he's introduced he has exactly one voice clip and it's just yay and so there's um one one of the uh spooky express passenger noises is almost exactly that and every time of like ah
00:48:57
Speaker
but and money And now if you want the most tell on myself, now my text message delivery tone is Greedo saying McClunky.
00:49:08
Speaker
Because that is, that is me to a T.
00:49:13
Speaker
Oh yeah. Those, those were a lot of fun. I i do like, uh, secretly hope that we do eventually add another passenger type for DLC because it's just so fun to come up with like all the different sounds they make. you know They get annoyed if you fail or they they have little idle sounds that happen you know while they're sitting around waiting for the train to come. and There's um so many so many different things that they react to they They get confused sometimes because they don't know where you're trying to go.
00:49:46
Speaker
um so Anyway, it's a lot of fun. there any Are there any other Easter eggs that people hid in the game files? Not yet.
00:49:57
Speaker
boy. So yeah, we're recording we're recording this a couple weeks in advance, so there's it's there's a potential that someone people will have added stuff before the game launches. There was one Easter egg that I wanted added, but I don't think it ever got added.
00:50:13
Speaker
the thumbs soundss up? Yeah. I still is there any way? We do. We have three models. I'm just going to step in here and say that nobody's allowed to any more things into the game, please.
00:50:27
Speaker
Please. Wait, but they've already been they have I have seen i have seen the thumbs up at some point. Someone said it to me. Oh my god. this would have This would have been pretty early in production because you had this idea almost immediately.
00:50:42
Speaker
ah It's a Terminator reference. Like a Terminator 2 thumbs up? Yeah, yeah, for the lava. Because we have pits of Where there's chance that a thumb will come out of the lava. Oh. Like a skeleton hand. Yeah. It's super. I mean, if it's if we already have a little skeleton thumbs up, why not?
00:50:59
Speaker
I believe we already have the skeleton thumbs up. Listener, yeah ah look, look to see it in the game. And if you do see it, it was added because of this discussion that you just heard recorded on October 8th.
00:51:10
Speaker
Yeah. I didn't realize the asset had been made. i would have been asking about it way sooner because I was just like, oh, I won't. like Everyone's busy. I'm not going to be like, hey, by the way, did you get that Terminator 2 reference? I think Adam made it at some point.
00:51:23
Speaker
Oh my god. if if If the asset's in there, I'll throw it on the tab. Something to go follow up on. i and This isn't really an easter egg I don't know it still gets me ah the the The possible option for a first person mode joke option Yeah VR spooky express Yes Gosh Yeah I'm you know i'm sure but we'll We'll get all that Apple Vision Pro money Mmm Mmm
00:52:03
Speaker
I do think it would be such a funny, like, i think we should release just like a fake trailer for Spooky Express VR for like April Fool's or something. Well, if we're going to have, if we want actually want to do that we're going to have to cut it out of this podcast now.
00:52:18
Speaker
we're We're leaving a recorded record of the joke.
00:52:23
Speaker
Only true fans will know, you know? Only true fans that listen to the podcast that we're marketing.
00:52:33
Speaker
ah Is there anything else people wanted to talk about about the game? This was the most, like, sort of ahead of schedule, put together, everybody knows what they're doing and nobody's panicking project of what can I think?
00:52:47
Speaker
Yeah, the Dragnet Games tends to be like that and I don't understand it Yeah. Clearly works on it too long. It's so nice as a producer because you're like, well, what I'm just sitting here like to make sure that it doesn't go off the rails. And then I hand the reins over to Ben and Ben is just like, oh my gosh.
00:53:08
Speaker
Well, the only thing you you left me with is that you warned me that Alan would try and like... change like do a secret ending in like the last week of the project or something yeah don't take your eye off the ball until launch day right yeah somehow we only ended up with one ending right there can always be ah an e section yeah this was a this was part of our risk assessment alan this was legitimately just i i warned him of this uh before you hired him yeah yeah that was in my interview and and your warning has uh has not born like it's it's been a false warning so uh no it has not just because it hasn't come true doesn't mean it wasn't worth warning about i've been good so next game you don't need to pay attention also you came you came pretty close to what what uh
00:54:01
Speaker
yeah I'll say you don't you don't get a complete pass on this. change how that We did change the structure of the ending last week. Multiple times.
00:54:12
Speaker
yeah Yeah. ah you You unfortunately do not get full parole for good behavior. Yeah, we do not have to hand it to Alan Hazelden. Yeah. I will say, like, the nice thing about this team, I feel like, is that there's such a high level of trust amongst the team.
00:54:31
Speaker
Like, I feel like a lot of times, like, that is really what it comes down to on, like a game development production is just, like, the level of trust people have with each other of, like... Yes, i I trust that you are going to like you know get all of your work done and do it well and link to the best of your ability.
00:54:48
Speaker
And that like you know you don't have to be like, there's no micromanaging. There's no like you know politicking. like it's It's so like wild to me when I hear people talk about like bigger studios, about like how much politicking there is and like all this stuff. And I'm just like, could not be me. I just want to make some art.
00:55:07
Speaker
Yeah. I'm just here to make art. like you Just trust me to make art and I'll do it, you know? I'm sure that Ben W and I have both had that the experience of having to do the micromanaging and it sucks for everyone.
00:55:20
Speaker
who Well, like I think the thing that you you get away with with a small team like this, which I love, is that like on a large team it becomes like orders of magnitude more difficult to make sure that everybody has the same, roughly the same idea of what the game is in their head.
00:55:44
Speaker
Like you're sort of like battling with the problem of everybody having a slightly different idea of what what they think the game is. And then from that, you get a bunch of like decisions made in different places that don't agree with each other and and it's horrible.
00:56:00
Speaker
But yeah, it's it's it's way easier to have everybody sort of singing from the same hymn sheet. Yeah, was very, very aligned, this team and this game.
00:56:10
Speaker
Like, I feel like there were so few, like, I think the, like, trying to figure out the map visuals was probably, like, one of the only things that was just, like, we were all kind of, like, I don't know what to do here. but Yeah.
00:56:22
Speaker
Like, that really was, like, the one thing that sticks out is, like, you know, we tried a few things that, like, didn't quite work and like that was just going back to concepts that was exactly solved that by just going back to the original concept yep um so yeah like i don't know it's this this project was very focused and i think that like the level of like focus and alignment like really lent itself to like finding all of the like fun little things that we could do
00:56:54
Speaker
you know and And being that like you know ah kind of like targeted, I think, is also what allowed us to do something like bringing in the comics as late as we did.
00:57:06
Speaker
um because like we weren't there weren't a bunch of fires we were having to put out like everything was like going really smoothly we're like let's add some narrative to this game you know the comics came out so good they that they're really great it's been a real uh a real delight sort of just hanging out in the slack for the last few months and just seeing each new comic pop up as it's been developed by um The team of artists. Yeah, shout out to as Zach Cunningham who did the initial first comic um kind of planning. And we also had the um narrative input
00:57:47
Speaker
Yes. As well. Yeah. So we we had like vague ideas for each of the comics. And then we chatted with Philippa Waugh about like some of the details and she helped.
00:57:58
Speaker
I mean, we were talking about trying some slightly more involved concepts for the story, which we really didn't have time for. And Pip was like, no just do the comics.
00:58:08
Speaker
Yeah. Alan, do you remember like sitting in that cafe in Edinburgh? Yeah. And and the the ideas we threw around to that cafe were good ideas. um And, yeah ah but they weren't necessarily like all we needed with these comics and they turned out great. And like, yeah, I just checked and it was three months turnaround from having the idea and inviting the first comic artist to getting that first mock-up and going like, yeah, this this idea will work.
00:58:35
Speaker
And then getting Zach Gorman and David Hellman on to actually make the comments we shipped with. um ah Yeah, really quick turnaround.
00:58:47
Speaker
ah Really, really happy we could make it happen. Yeah. I think it was so nice too, because it was like, you know, I brought on a couple of friends to ah play some additional instruments for the comic music.
00:59:01
Speaker
So I was able to um bring on Jack DeKeat to do some violin and clarinet and some whistling. And then my friend Nate, ah who is an amazing mandolinist to play some mandolin.
00:59:15
Speaker
So like, I just feel like the comics are such like a nice, like last minute, like infusion of collaboration. um so yeah i'm i'm really happy with how they came out and i think they are really charming in the game i think they like really add a lot of character they also give like a nice breather between each section yeah like and anything to look forward to as well rather than it being like understand if you're maybe like super uh gung-ho about the puzzles but if you're like needing something else to like look forward to i think the comics are like a nice like north star for a lot of players yeah i think yeah i think that they work really well with the pacing you know initially i was a little concerned that just like oh but what if we only have what if we only have time for like comics for half the areas but they turn out really good and then it feels like we're missing stuff like no they all they all came in and they all came in great and so yeah
01:00:11
Speaker
also I really like how they kind of reinforce the humor of the game because like each comic has like a lot of like visual gags and stuff. And i think it really does a lot to like reinforce the humor of the game. and just like i don't know. i just I really like them and I'm i'm really, really glad that ah we managed to get them in.
01:00:30
Speaker
ah My favorite comic is actually just the second comic. The pumpkin patch? It's so good. Of, like, the monsters are all just hanging like hanging around, and then the humans are just there with all their cameras just getting in their way.
01:00:44
Speaker
So good. I think that first panel with the the vampires, like, floating is, like, my favorite panel out of any of the comics. Yeah. um it's It's really delightful.
01:00:55
Speaker
um Speaking of collaboration, Priscilla, maybe... ah Maybe next game, I'll go ahead and record an instrument for you. Yeah.
01:01:06
Speaker
I'm always putting out feelers. I just like saw one of my friends post a a video playing the marimba, and I'm like, I didn't know you have access to a marimba. um it's It's very funny because um just ah just on pure timeline, this will be a couple weeks old for everyone else, but...
01:01:25
Speaker
ah yesterday was the final edit of the episode that you recorded Priscilla so
Podcast Wrap-Up
01:01:31
Speaker
Melanie who edited the podcast uh told me asked asked me how long the the empty pause should be after I say that I can play basically every instrument uh because and I just said well leave it leave it unedited and she responded I cannot do that it is 20 seconds I so part of what happened there I have i didn't parse what you said because I have like audio processing issues.
01:02:00
Speaker
And so I like I wasn't sure what you said. and so i was like, do I ask what did you say? Like, so I don't know. So I because I just like legitimately did not like parse what you said because I i was just like, wait. No, that's fair. So I was like, wait. ah um it It came out very funny.
01:02:20
Speaker
Where I was like, not like all of them. And then it's just like 20 seconds of silence where no one's saying anything. And I'm like... <unk> beef with sere comes out And so i think I think it got edited down to like half that.
01:02:35
Speaker
OK, I was like happened and I was like, surely they'll just edit that out because like I just like I didn't like ah my brain was just like it interpreted just like blah blah blah.
01:02:47
Speaker
Like that's what I heard. like i that makes more sense in in at the moment it was just like this is a really funny you bit and i'm just gonna let it ride because the silence is clearly intentional ah
01:03:03
Speaker
No, sometimes like I watch everything with subtitles. Like it's so funny. Like I joke to people. It's like, oh yeah, I i work my, I make a living doing audio, but I have audio processing problems.
01:03:15
Speaker
And um yeah, like sometimes like Kevin, my my partner will like be trying to tell me something. I'll be like, can you say that slower? can you I am i am the weirdo that watches everything with subtitles 1.5 X speed.
01:03:33
Speaker
I am i have the ultimate um contradiction in that sense. All right. So thank you, everyone, for joining. um You know, think it's not easy for everyone to find the time.
01:03:48
Speaker
Really appreciate it. For listeners of the podcast, every single person on this recording is in at least one dedicated podcast episode where we talk about them and their past experience. So if you were super engaged and were thinking, I want to hear more about like how Phoenix got into games, or I want to hear more about Ben Wilson's production horror stories, or I want to hear more about Priscilla and music, or I want to hear more about Lucas and puzzle design, or I want to hear about how Ben Davis and Alan have been working together for over a decade at this point, basically.
01:04:25
Speaker
There are so many episodes in the podcast feed for you to go listen to. If you thought that this um retrospective was too on the rails and that development went too positively, might I recommend the all electrifying incident post-mortem?
01:04:40
Speaker
um If you want to hear a postmortem that was not ah kept super on the rails. As a reminder, thank you to everyone. Spooky Express is available now on Steam, itch.io, the iOS app store, and Google Play for Android phones.
01:04:58
Speaker
ah You can check it out. Please leave a review for the game after you play it. That helps a lot. And please rate and review the podcast here. ah And as always, thank you for listening to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoisemusic.com.
01:05:17
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
01:05:34
Speaker
Train!