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Monte Syrie says grades get in the way
67 Plays3 months ago
Twitter: @MonteSyrie
Instagram: @montesyrie
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning. Sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton and Crystal
Educator Engagement and Podcast Network
00:00:13
Speaker
Frommer. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators. both in and out of the classroom. This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools, and districts, or education at large. The Learner-Centered Spaces podcast is a member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. Get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guest.
Interview with Monte Sairi
00:00:46
Speaker
We are so excited to have Monte Sairi on the show today. His purpose is do, reflect, do better. Love it. um He is an author of Better, a Teacher's Journey. He's an avid mountain biker and very active on social media. So if you don't follow him already, please follow him.
Shifting Focus to Learning Over Grades
00:01:09
Speaker
So welcome Monte to the show today. Thank you. Thank you, Crystal.
00:01:16
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Monty, we are so excited to hear a little bit more about you. Can you tell us a defining moment in your education journey? Oh, man, so many. But one one that certainly comes to mind is at year 20, which was in the fall of 2016. um I set myself on a kind of a self-appointed journey of of getting um or doing away with grades and I had reached that point in my career where I realized that grading was getting in the way of learning and I decided to do something fairly radical um because I wanted to explore the realms of the classroom without having grades on the table and so that fall
00:02:04
Speaker
um I kind of took the radical step of getting rid of grades by giving my kids an A for the entire year and so they walked in that that August morning um at the end of August, and I handed each of them a wooden A, and guaranteed them that no matter what, that would be their grade for the rest of the year. um And I did that very purposefully, so all that was left was for us to really think deeply about how we then were gonna spend our time for the next 180 days, and with grading gone, all that we had left was learning, and that was truly a transform a transformative year for me.
00:02:44
Speaker
um because I no longer had grades to to slow me down and to stand in the way. And so from there, I have explored, ah you know, the ideas of getting rid of grades. And and more importantly, I think it's it's about making learning the focus. And, you know, we we I tend to grind on grades on social media. um And I think I continue to do that is because I continue to recognize that they really do get in the way, not just of my work, but I think of all of our work. And I just think it's too bad that we can't take greater steps than we have um to make learning to focus.
Pushback and Support
00:03:22
Speaker
And so that's that was the the the big moment for me, um Star.
00:03:28
Speaker
Yeah, Monty, i I would say that our stories are not dissimilar. I think that once that switch goes off, it makes it very challenging to go back to the traditional kind of model. yeah So what I'm curious is like, what was the response to this giving everyone an A right at the beginning from the kids, from your colleagues, from your administrators? Did you experience any kind of pushback and how might you have dealt with that? Okay, so I'll start with the kids. The kids, you know of course, it was day one and and they didn't fully trust that I was being sincere.
00:04:09
Speaker
um But they quickly learned that I really was and so ah there was a lot of disbelief and distrust but um as as time went on, they came to trust and believe in what I was trying to do, as far as colleagues admin everyone else. um disappointingly, so I did not get the pushback that I wanted. um I kind of did it so I would get that pushback because I figured it was time for us to have a real and honest conversation about grading. And um I was pretty much prepared to like, okay, if you are grading and I was going to demand
00:04:42
Speaker
you know If they were going to audit my my quote new way of grading by giving kids all A's, I was going to demand that they they audited everyone's grading practices um because I believe what we would have discovered is what a big mess grading really is and and was um and well and continues to be right. so um and It never happened and that was disappointing. so um so For the most part, kind of passively, I got administrative support on it.
Impact of Removing Grade Fear
00:05:11
Speaker
And so I just took the journey and ran with it.
00:05:17
Speaker
Yeah, I could appreciate that too. I had tacit support as well, but I found that my administrators really didn't understand what I was doing, but appreciated the results that I got. So, you know, that dichotomy kind of, of like they're acknowledging that what I was doing was wildly different than everybody else, but kids were really successful and they went on to college and were successful in college and therefore, um, the pushback from administration was lessened. My colleagues, on the other hand, I think, resented the shift just because the more I pushed, the more it meant that there was an expectation on them that they would have to consider. It it was never a formal conversation we had as a group, sure but ah you know it certainly was an underpinning.
00:06:12
Speaker
However, as we think about that shift that you're just talking about, and we think about what learn you know how learner-centered spaces truly thrive. So you gave students all A's right at the front. Can you describe how um taking that fear of the grade off the table created a more learner-centered space? So what does it look like, feel like, sound like now versus the way it did when grades were in the way?
Grading Practices and Systemic Constraints
00:06:42
Speaker
um Well, I think what I'll speak to here, Star, there are a number of things, but I think one of the main discoveries that both the kids and I had that year was the importance of feedback um and how how vital and and crucial it was to to learning forward. um You know, previously with grades, and and i'm I'm sure both of you have experienced this before,
00:07:03
Speaker
you know you'd give a kid a score and you'd give a kid feedback or comments and all that they focused on was the score. um And so now with you know the fact that they had an A and it wasn't they were no longer worried about what grade am I getting, it's just like what feedback am I getting to help me learn forward? And so that was perhaps the biggest um outcome, if you will, of our time together that year is really focusing in on this is what matters. like you know This is where I am, Mr. Sirey. How are you going to help me move forward? and so Feedback became um you know our currency. you know Grades were no longer the currency. Feedback was the currency. and and That's where I met each kid where where he, she, or or they were. so
00:07:53
Speaker
I absolutely love how you described grades that they get in the way because I 100% agree with that. I teach middle school and I want to teach. I want the kids to learn. I want us all to learn and grades are just it's like walking through mud. It just gets in the way and slows us down and we have such meaningless conversations just around points and grades. and um and You mentioned earlier that you wish that the school had you know had audited everyone's grading practices because it is arbitrary and maybe not always accurate. Can you describe more about how a school, what would you suggest a school does if they did have the time and resources to audit everyone's grading practices?
00:08:38
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Well, yeah I think it begins with the question, you know um ah but rather the focus, I think, Crystal, it begins with the focus of of not grading and learning. Like, what is learning? And you know how are we supporting each kid's learning experience? you know For me, especially with grades, it seems like we spend so much time worrying about who's failing and who's not passing. And we never really ask the question, are they learning? um You know, particularly at the high school, I have seniors, it seems like the only thing they wanted to worry about this year is like, are we going to get them all across the stage?
00:09:13
Speaker
and so grading became the focus of our conversation. And I worry that if we only focus on grading, we find we find you know um quick fixes.
Encouragement and Learning Experiences
00:09:22
Speaker
you know And I'm not saying a standards-based grading is a quick fix, but I think too often it becomes a quick quick fix when we move from traditional to standards-based grading without understanding the necessary cultural shifts that have to happen in the classroom, in the building, um and really it just becomes another form of of traditional grading. So I think if I were to, um encourage schools, districts, and other ah entities to really focus on grading, quit focusing on grading, focus on learning. It changes the conversation, I believe.
00:09:58
Speaker
So what advice do you have for a teacher? Because there are many, many teachers out there who say they won't do it unless there's a grade, students work hard, they deserve, I'm i'm trying to think of all the things I've heard from colleagues and people online. the list that you know it's
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah. what What advice do you have to someone who you know maybe wants to go away from traditional grading, but they're just constantly listening to these these voices of opposition? So this is this is my my advice, Crystal, because I think this is such ah an important um factor because I think so many are afraid to move forward um because because of the of the great comfort that we have found in in the status quo and in traditional grading. and um And this is one of the biggest outcomes of of Project 180 in that first year of giving an A is it's just about getting better. And so my advice, you know, if you were going to go to your principal and say, hey, I really want to try some things differently. I've learned some things from different places online.
00:10:58
Speaker
and And I don't want to give some things a shot. And I think what people have to do is to just say, hey, I am just going to try this. I'm going to learn from it. And I promise you, and I promise myself, I'm only going to get better from here. And so at the outset, when you kind of introduced my my mantra or my logo, if you will, do reflect, do better. That's what it became about. I mean, I think I thought I was going to arrive at good or great at the end of Project 180, and it was a five-year deal. And all I discovered was it was in front of me all along is I just have to get better. And I think if we can sincerely say to ourselves and sincerely say to our admin and to our colleagues that my goal here is just to simply get better and to learn, how how do you how do you not support that, you know?
00:11:44
Speaker
And so that's my advice. just be Just be honest and sincere with the people, maybe the doubters and just say, hey, I'm on one single journey here. And that single journey is just to provide better learning experiences for my kids and my classroom. So please trust me with this and give me the grace to to learn.
Acknowledging Diverse Learning Paces
00:12:04
Speaker
So can I ask you a very specific question here? you know um I believe that students do want to learn. I believe that they want to be there, that they don't need to be externally motivated all the time. But I have some students over the years
00:12:20
Speaker
who, if they did earn an A for the class, it probably would not be representative of what the knowledge and skills that they have to go on to the next course. right And i I don't want to misrepresent that the student doesn't have all the skills that another student who might have, quote unquote, earned an A had. what do you What do you recommend you do about students who are just really struggling with the material, might need to repeat a lot of the material, but they are just going to go on to the next class? Oh, wow. that's That's an important question. And I think about this a lot and I know we all do. um What I would suggest is that, you know, learning doesn't happen
00:13:05
Speaker
in the same way at the same time for all of our kids, we have created that construct on our own. And so I don't think we're ever going to get away from, quote, sending some kids on who aren't, quote, ready. um I think that, you know, learning just simply has to be perceived as an experience, and I think we do the best we can with the kids that we have for the short amount of time that we have them. And I know that sounds cavalier. I know that sounds like, oh, wow, great. But I think our focus, I think when we worry about sending kids all, we're still worried about the idea of all. And I think we need to embrace instead the idea of each. All we can ever do um is meet each kid where they are.
00:13:53
Speaker
in the time that we have them and help them move and learn forward. um I reject this idea that all kids are, you know, kids have never been ready. i've In 28 years, I've never sent a class of kids all ready for the next level. I've never gotten kids who are all ready for my level. And so learning happens on its own time and it doesn't always fit our calendar, which again, I think is our own construct, our own monster that we have created.
00:14:24
Speaker
I think you're so spot on, Monty, there and there are so many constraints in our current system that make learning like at least the full extent of the curricula we're expected to deliver and have kids master over the course of a year is just, it's not practical.
Valuing Diverse Approaches
00:14:43
Speaker
And if we think about the roots of where the history of where the structure came from, it wasn't meant for all kids and it wasn't meant to function for the purposes that we're currently using it for. So I think those things that you just talked about are ah really important for us to examine. And hopefully in our lifetime, maybe we'll see more than just small pockets of people who are doing innovative things, not just in one classroom, but full systems who are breaking
00:15:18
Speaker
breaking what exists and creating something that works for the learners we have now. yes um I think that's important. So to that end, who would you like our listeners to be aware of where they could learn more about this work? Who are the people you go to in terms of people to follow or read or listen to? wow I had a different answer prepared for that question, but you changed it on me a little bit there. so um you know I think that there are so many. and If I may, a Star, I'm going to take it where I was going to take it anyway. um and I think that we have to start paying attention to some of the people who aren't on social media.
00:16:06
Speaker
um You know, there's so many of us out here and I recognize that that's an easy way for us to find. But, you know, I think about all of the teachers out there who do such a fantastic job in our buildings and the other colleagues that we know who aren't engaged in social media, who do such a great job of creating learner-centered spaces. You know, my wife comes to mind. She's not active at all on social media, but she is the teacher that I want to be when I grow up. um She does such a fantastic job. And I think sometimes we forget because we get so
00:16:39
Speaker
engaged in our online communities. We forget that there are in-person communities around us, and ah we need to somehow elevate those those those voices and those ideas
Recognition of Educators and Engagement
00:16:51
Speaker
as well. And I and i get that that that's not out there for everyone to to glean and and to to benefit from, but I think that there have to be other ways that we elevate those those people who are, quote, behind the scenes.
00:17:09
Speaker
Um, I appreciate you saying that, you know, the folks that aren't on social are worth paying attention to. And I wonder how do we get like, Crystal and I make a concerted effort to not only pull people from social, but to give space to people that we know personally who are doing great things and aren't all over social, but how do we get those people who aren't on social to share more of what they're doing so that people could see it's not just us noisemakers or authors or speakers who are doing this work that it is broader than it appears? Um, you know, I, I don't know, uh, other than saying, get them on social media. Right. But I think we have to make them bigger at home. If that makes sense. Um, you know, I think we have to, to revert back to not thinking everything has to be on social media all the time. And and I, and again, I understand that that doesn't benefit a wider audience, but you know, we have to, we have to, you know, help those people, um, at home.
00:18:15
Speaker
in our communities, in our schools, and our in our in our buildings, in our districts, we have to amplify those voices where they're best going to probably serve our work, and that's that's there at home. And I know that doesn't really help, and that's not what you're asking for, Starr, but um there has to be two sides to this, I think.
00:18:38
Speaker
I think one way is we could get those folks on the learner-centered spaces podcast yes right here, right? yeah we We should invite them. so Thank you, Monty. Speaking of social media, where can our followers find you? I'm most active on on Twitter or X. um I'll always call it Twitter probably, but I just at Monty Sirey on Twitter, and then I'm pretty active on Instagram as well. and That's also just at Monty Sirey.
00:19:06
Speaker
Okay. I will put that in the show notes for for our listeners to see. Thanks for your time. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes. Learn more about mastery portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio dot.com. You can follow us on X at mastery for all and linked it in our mastery portfolio page. We'd love for you to engage with us. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or know someone who would be an inspiring guest, please fill out the survey found in the show notes. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.
00:19:50
Speaker
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