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Justin Orschlen & Ronnie Lathrop say small shifts can change the dynamic
48 Plays10 days ago
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/thinkpairswear.bsky.social
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/think-pair-swear/id1694928236
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkPairSwear
Music by AudioCoffee: https://www.audiocoffee.net/
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Transcript
Introduction to Learner Centered Spaces Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning. Sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton and Crystal Fromert.
00:00:23
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools, and districts, or education at large.
Meet the Guests: Justin Orschelin and Ronnie Lathrop
00:00:34
Speaker
The Learner Centered Spaces podcast is a member of the Teach Better Podcast Network.
00:00:40
Speaker
Get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guest. We have a very special episode today two guests. We have Justin Orschelin and Ronnie Lathrop.
00:00:53
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So we'll start with Justin. He is assistant principal at Eagle Heights Elementary. He was formerly a music educator. We asked him about his passion for education. he says, he is driven by a passion for leadership, education, and authentic connections.
00:01:10
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He strives to inspire growth, foster inclusivity, and create meaningful experiences that empower students, staff, and communities to thrive. He is also a podcast host, which we'll talk about later, and a game show enthusiast.
00:01:26
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We also have Ronnie Lathrop on the show too. He is a retired teacher who now does HIV education for nonprofits. He is formerly a high school AP English teacher, college composition and French teacher,
00:01:42
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dual credit coordinator for university and adjunct professor. We asked him about his passion and Ronnie says, for my students, I wanted to instill confidence, foster literacy, and yes, some pop culture literacy too. And yes, we will get to the pop culture part.
00:02:00
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And he also wants to give students the tools needed for whatever they do post-secondary. Just like Justin, Ronnie was also on Wheel of Fortune, but Ronnie says he won more money.
00:02:12
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He loves creative writing, which he gets to do every week with recaps of film or TV for the podcast that they do called Think, Pair, Swear. And in this podcast, they add in personal anecdotes, usually humorous and often horrifying.
00:02:28
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He also loves horror movies and he's a Chapel Roan enthusiast. Please welcome Ronnie and Justin to the show today.
Educational Journeys and Inspiring Mentors
00:02:39
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So we're so excited to have Justin and Ronnie on. Can you tell us a little bit about what put you on your current journey? Well, Ronnie, your journey has been far longer, so why don't you go ahead and start?
00:02:53
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What's put me, okay, well, my educational journey, I think it was, no, I know it was junior English with Mr. Reynolds. He was amazing. And i never thought while in high school that I could be a high school teacher because high school was a nightmare for me.
00:03:09
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But being in his class and and finding my passion in writing and finding finding good books to read um really, really, really sparked that interest that just,
00:03:23
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sent me on to college and I felt I had got some really great mentors to work with there. And, and that's what, that's what started me.
00:03:33
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And for me, i think what got me started, you know, as ah as a gay teen in the middle of Missouri, it was really hard to feel like I belonged in school. um And the one thing that literally kept me in school was music. It was Mr. Cotter, my high school choir teacher. It was just the one place in my class or one place in school that I felt like I belonged um so much so that I said, I want to be able to deliver that same impact that Mr. Cotter gave to me to other kids. So I graduated high school with a 2.2 GPA, humble brag, and went to Missouri Baptist University for my undergrad.
00:04:12
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And you'll be shocked to know in in undergrad, I actually graduated with a 4.0, which just is a testament that it's if you're in school for what you truly love and the learning is relevant to you,
00:04:24
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and you're in an environment that's supportive, you will thrive. And then from there, I taught K-2 music, which turned into K-6 music. um And while I was there, i I never would have thought that I would be a building leader from there.
00:04:42
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ah But now here I am, an assistant principal, um at Eagle Heights Elementary School in Smithville, Missouri. And I never would have thought I'd be a building leader, but i just love helping people. And I like making a big impact um on as many people as I can and showing other people that they too can make a big impact, which is I think how I landed where I landed today.
Project-Based Learning and Learner-Centered Spaces
00:05:06
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And what i really enjoy is being retired and not having to grade another essay again. ah my The two of you are, I feel like the combination of what you two just explained is basically how I became an English teacher also back when I was in the high school English classroom.
00:05:25
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So yay English teachers, writing teachers, and also as somebody who was definitely a part of the music and arts folks while I was growing up because I was a bit of a misfit myself.
00:05:39
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um i can really appreciate that idea also of wanting to have that impact which is why ultimately i left the classroom as well to go into leadership so to that end thinking from the lens that you have now what does a learner-centered space look like feel like sound like like what what do you look for when when you want to make sure kids are being engaged I really lucked out my last five years. and i was at the school district that Justin's currently at right now and loved it. It was great. I was there for 20 years, but I but i wanted to switch and I got to a really much larger school, suburban school, and the opportunities to further what is a learner-centered space really kind of opened up for me there.
00:06:28
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they were really into project-based learning. And that's something that i didn't know a lot about. but once I got the job, they're like, you're going to know everything about it because that's all we do here. And it really changed the way i interacted with my students the way I kind of took a step back and was able to let them take the reins to their own learning.
00:06:55
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And it was it was really beautiful to to be able to to be able to do. They even paid for us to go to this school in San Diego, California. Oh my gosh, I can't remember the name of it.
00:07:05
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But it's one that a lot of project-based learning is i kind of centered around. That's the one, high tech high. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We went and we toured it and we talked to a bunch of teachers, got to talk to some students and um bring bring kind of that knowledge back.
00:07:20
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We did a humanities class, me and another colleague. She was a history teacher and I was English. And so we co-taught that. We did all project-based learning for for a year. And then the teacher that was doing college comp, she left and I had to take over those classes. So I didn't get continued education.
00:07:39
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Continue that journey, which anybody's first year of doing something like that is going to be a mess. And it really was. i learned a lot and i wanted to do Natchez sketch shakeover, you know, of that year. But it really helped me you the rest of the time I was in that school district.
00:07:58
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And then for me, and I think i just just because our district is really, and I think we spoke about this before we started recording, going through um getting rid of traditional grades and going into comp city-based learning, which really marries itself into what student-centered learning looks like. So when I think of student-centered learning, I think of just environments that just put learners in the driver's seat. that Maybe I don't see rows of desks, but just this flexible, interactive, almost hub with areas for collaboration, quiet study, creative exploration. And then when we're combining these ideas, that's where you get a really nice learning ecosystem. And I think, again, competency-based learning is just really a lot of work that we're doing this year.
00:08:41
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I just think of it as teachers acting more like coaches, guiding students, as they progress at their own pace and providing extra help when needed. And this student-centered space offers tools and a layout that kind of let each student choose how and where they learn best. And this setup encourages active engagement. engagement, personalizing their experience.
00:09:03
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And really, most of all, the greatest thing about students ah student-centered learning and competency-based learning is the clarity of it all, which students know exactly what they're supposed to do, why what to learn, why it's important, and what success looks like, which if we Think about like Hattie's research, particularly in his work on visible learning, which I think Ronnie was talking about too.
00:09:23
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It shows that when teachers are clear about learning goals and expectations, it has one of the strongest impacts on student achievement. So when students have that clarity, they're not just passively sitting and getting to a stage on a stage, they're actively engaged because they understand the purpose behind the lesson.
00:09:42
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So my question for you is you were a music teacher, Justin, and turned into a principal. And i'm curious, how do you keep that learner-centered environment as a school leader um if you're not in the classroom every day? How do you do that with your teachers and your staff?
00:09:59
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modeling it anytime we can. um Also, we are just in the infancy of implementing it in um our school district. And it's something that we are doing all, every area. And what's really great about having the music background or the fine arts background is so often when we go through these processes as a district, the think about like your fine arts, your PE, your computer, all your, I call them leftovers, um are often square peg round hold into this new district initiative. But these teachers now get to see
00:10:38
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oh, this is an administrator who's done this before, who has felt the way I do right now and walk hand in hand with them. And we are going so slow. We're really just focusing on identifying and in some cases, depending on the content, creating priority standards, having those rich conversations.
00:10:58
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Once we've made those standards, we're going to align them to a scope and sequence, moving into proficiency scales, the creation of them, what that looks like, and really having rich conversations. So I guess to answer your question, how I bring that to the front is just being present and being involved in those conversations rather than just employing it onto them, really walking side by side with them.
00:11:20
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So what advice would you give another administrator?
Advice for Educators on Learner-Centered Environments
00:11:24
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This is a question for both of you, another administrator or another educator who maybe is wanting to be more learner-centered in their environment, but maybe they're not at a school where they feel like they can be, like maybe their school is pretty traditional in grading and desk in rows and that kind of style.
00:11:43
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give me advice for teachers in that situation? I would say research a little bit and start with some projects that kind of are learner-centered, focused, and then invite those admin in to observe what's going on, or at least the final product of it.
00:12:03
Speaker
One that really worked for me was the multi-genre project. Are are you guys familiar with that at all? No? um It involves writing... Yeah, it involves writing from multiple genres. It's like you're researching oh a topic of some sort, of something you're interested in. but The way I would use it with my AP students, we focused on so many different authors. And by the end, we got to know a lot of a lot of different people that way, a lot of different authors that way. And so I had them choose one and...
00:12:38
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they would research about that book or about the author, and they would come back as they were researching, kind of forming a thesis as it was kind of like going along.
00:12:49
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um You'd start with a theme, and then the thesis would come out of the research, and then the research would get turned into different styles of writing. It could be, I don't know, anything from greeting cards to...
00:13:03
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um not essays, nothing that could be an essay. So a lot of my traditional students hated that. But what I did at the end was my visiting college professor because the AP that we had ah that was also in conjunction with a dual credit course as well.
00:13:20
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And so for them to come in, these administrators from this college and see the final product that students been working had been working on for for a month was really impactful them.
00:13:30
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impactful to them
00:13:33
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And then for me, if I could just think of any teacher regardless of content, I would say just start small. Just begin by adding little elements of choice into your lessons.
00:13:46
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ah Small shifts are really what gradually transforms what the dynamic of your class looks like. And then just build your knowledge as best you can. Look into resources like books, articles, webinars, um ah websites like Edutopia, which Crystal, who we've had the privilege of exploring some of your work before.
00:14:05
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Often share lots of strategies strategies and success stories. And then just go in with a growth mindset. At the end of the day, you're going to mess up. And this might sound a little crass, but go in with the mindset of, I didn't turn a kid into a serial killer today. i was successful. ball You know, even in education, it's you're either you're a plant, you're either growing or you're dying. And if you if you're just sailing forward, assessing what works well in your classroom.
00:14:32
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But you know what, one of the best ways to get it is get student feedback. which is a really great way to adjust your strategies and ensure your methods are meeting your students' needs. And like Ronnie said, communicate with the admin, share your research, share those small wins with your leaders. And that showing what that student-centered approach looks like can boost engagement, not just with your administration, but other staff, which may encourage a broader support for those student-centered teaching methods.
Gathering Student Feedback and Socratic Seminars
00:15:02
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So can I follow up on what you said about feedback? I think sometimes from feedback from students, that is, i think sometimes that can be anxiety producing for some educators. And um I worked at a school where it was required to get kind of a formal evaluation from the high school students.
00:15:20
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um But is there a way that you'd recommend that teachers and educators could get feedback from their students that doesn't invoke anxiety or like a formal evaluation? And and also a second part of that question is how do you recommend getting feedback from younger students?
00:15:39
Speaker
I mean, you know, there's those in informal opportunities like just doing a fist to five, which is more of a temperature check as a nonverbal check in for those little kids. ah The two stars and a wish. did I love digital feedback walls, platforms like Padlet or a jam board.
00:15:56
Speaker
Let students leave comments or ideas or feedback throughout the week. It's very casual, ongoing. And you know if you're a techie, I know not so if teachers are anxious about feedback, I bet they're anxious about technology too. So that maybe that's not the best thing, but a good old-fashioned exit ticket.
00:16:11
Speaker
Students jot down one thing that went well and one thing they'd like to see improved. Super low pressure gives you a immediate actionable insights. I used to do surveys with my music students. And I know that sounds kind of wild that I'm using a specials class to I only get 50 minutes a week, but those surveys were super valuable in getting on the spot feedback. And it could just be super simple, just a few short questions after a lesson or a unit.
00:16:37
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um I just think regular low stakes check-ins, instead of waiting on a big survey day, just brief informal check-ins into the routine. It just helps build a culture where feedback is normal, expected part of the learning process. And having that practice makes permanent and it just becomes part of your routine.
00:16:55
Speaker
I totally agree with that too. And I feel like at the high school level in terms of like, if you're truly building a culture where belonging is at the center of what you're doing and you've built those really good relationships, I think it's important to demonstrate a reciprocal expectation that we're providing feedback all the time, but it's really about the learner.
00:17:17
Speaker
And so like things like student focus groups, you could do if like you're afraid to hear the feedback directly from your own students, you could switch with a colleague and maybe do a focus group where you ask kids about what resonates most with them and why.
00:17:33
Speaker
um If there are, you know, pieces of a lesson that they think are you know, really exciting or things that they really didn't like. I think that as educators, it's really important that we elevate teachers voice, um student voice in that way so that they feel like we're really listening. And then the more important part is once you get the feedback that you use it.
00:17:55
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At the high school level for for me, I like what you said there. it it It is very important. And um when it came to the end of ah end of a unit, I would always use Socratic seminars with students. And that was always a good time at the end of a unit to ask them what went well and what we didn't. And then could just step back and let them have the discussion and take notes and cringe at the mistakes made and the literature that was a flop.
00:18:22
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Yeah, kids have some really interesting insights that sometimes when we've shared a text many times over, because I taught AP Lit too, I think their insight is usually very refreshing.
00:18:38
Speaker
To transition kind of into our last section, like, are there people you'd love to shout out that help you both get to where you are?
Influences and Inspirations in Education
00:18:48
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I mean, I think of people who are very personal to me.
00:18:53
Speaker
um ah One person, i mean, Ronnie alluded to this also, that um Ronnie has been actually a huge influence in my career in that... um Seeing him be an educational leader in a very conservative town, in a very conservative school district, as an out gay man, seeing that you can do it and be authentically who you are. i don't think there are enough voices out there of LGBT teachers who have the courage and bravery to authentically be who they are.
00:19:25
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um And I applaud anybody who can do that. And Ronnie really was somebody who um showed me that I can be exactly who I am in my school district as well. In terms of people in my life, I mean, good my goodness, so many. i think of people that, like Melinda Stewart, who is my current boss. so and And I know that sounds kind of obligatory, but Just somebody who has always created an environment with heart and compassion and really shaped the importance of relationships and culture in my building.
00:20:00
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um Somebody else that I think is amazing, Dr. Taylor John, who has just been a huge force in again, fostering positive school cultures where voice and choice are front and center.
00:20:11
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um She's working her tail off to really um inspire staff and students. For me, I discovered picking what you said piggybacking on what you said, Justin, about um finding mentors. for For me, TikTok has really opened up a lot of of it's particularly gay teachers that sharing their experiences and what works for them and what doesn't and the the trials and tribulations of... of teaching in conservative areas too.
00:20:41
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One I particularly love is ah his name's Greg and he's an elementary drama teacher that does like an Explode class for kids. And his big thing on Fridays is to talk about the top five things that kids said to him at the elementary level that are just bonkers.
00:20:58
Speaker
But it's stuff like that that really makes, not really light of the situation or makes light of teaching, but at least gives some levity to it. Especially in an age where it seems like we're under fire constantly to have to have those people that that that make me laugh.
00:21:16
Speaker
And i'll I'll be sad when TikTok goes away because I don't um don't have any way to follow this guy anymore. i've I've gotten off of Facebook.
Think, Pair, Swear Podcast and Pop Culture in Education
00:21:24
Speaker
Well, speaking of making people laugh, um your podcast is hilarious.
00:21:29
Speaker
And i hope our listeners will also give your podcast a listen. ah Thank Persewear, which we'll put a link to in the show notes. But could you tell us a little bit more about your podcast? And also, where could our listeners find you online if they want to know more about your work or get in touch?
00:21:48
Speaker
um Think, Pairs, Swear. We got the idea we wanted to do a podcast about education, but we weren't too sure what that was going to look like. And I follow a lot of pop culture um podcasts, and I thought...
00:22:04
Speaker
I don't think there's anybody out there that are educators that look at the field of education through popular popular culture, through movies and through television and and how wrong they get it and sometimes how right they get it.
00:22:17
Speaker
And so that's that's where where where that came from. Do you want to add on to that, Justin? Justin?
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think, yeah especially after the 2016 election, when education was really looked under, in my opinion, a very unfair microscope, there are all these people giving what they believe to be what's really going on in classrooms today, that Ronnie and I were like, man, these people just don't have a clue at how sometimes ridiculous our days are. And Ronnie is a big pop culture junkie and and I get relatively into it also. And then I think that's where we kind of ran into the idea of, well what if we put a highlight on how sometimes wrong, sometimes dead on, they get it, but...
00:23:05
Speaker
We also talk about other things going on in education. We do anticipatory sets, which cover an emerging trend in education, sometimes an exit ticket, which is something related in the news. Sometimes it could be advice that teachers need from Reddit. And we usually relate it to the piece of media that we've covered. and I'll be honest. It is not as academic as your guys' podcast is. It can get pretty blue sometimes, but, but you know what? We have an absolute blast. We we will be hitting our hundredth episode here soon. And um you can find it pretty much anywhere you stream podcasts. We're very happy um with how it's been going.
00:23:44
Speaker
and we, we, cited crystal's article in a dawson's creek recap um and that's i think how what connected us so how amazing that uh something like that could the horrible tv show dawson's creek brought us together i'm very thankful for that well we watched a couple of episodes that were pretty bad it was like a childhood i used to love that show Maybe it's my teen brain thinking.
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:24:15
Speaker
but like you Yeah, you need to revisit it.
00:24:17
Speaker
Oh, oh yeah. yeah We've watched a few pieces of media that were really great when we watched it 10, 15 years ago. Well, if you want to get a hold of us, you can email us at thinkpairswear at gmail.com.
00:24:36
Speaker
we are just starting a YouTube channel since we've switched... we We switched our platform from um one platform that we weren't pleased with to now we're using Riverside, which allows us to use video as well. So we're we're just finding new ways to engage with our audiences. Some people have reported they want to see what we look like, which, okay, that's fine. You can see what we look like.
00:24:58
Speaker
And so we're posting there. well We're also on Blue Sky at ThinkPairswear, so you can find us there too. Well, thank you. We will put all of those links in the show notes and I hope people will reach out to you.
00:25:10
Speaker
um i also want to shout out to Edutopia for bringing us together and um connecting educators and and podcasting. And I love what what both of you guys are doing.
00:25:21
Speaker
And i just think it's great when educators can connect and share good stuff that's going on in the classroom. Cause I think we have a pretty tough time our, in our and our occupation.
00:25:31
Speaker
And just having that support and that unity together makes it better. So thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much for having us and for being a good sport. Thank you.
00:25:45
Speaker
Learn more about Mastery Portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com.
00:26:00
Speaker
And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.