Transcript
Speaker: Alright, welcome back to The Nook. I'm your host Camden. And I'm Morgan. And we're here in the studio today, but the episode we have for you was filmed somewhere a little bit different. We're out in the woods at Timber Nook headquarters, right in the middle of a Timber Nook training. So you may hear some kids in the background of some of the video We sat down with trainees from across the country, nearly 20 of them, representing public schools, private schools, and even a behavioral health center. You'll hear from school administrators, OTs, teachers, counselors, and more.
Speaker: They shared some incredibly valuable perspectives, and we loved hearing why they chose Timber Nook, what their experience at training has been like, what they've learned so far, and what they're most excited to bring back to their own sites. Yeah. And these are firsthand accounts for people who are going to be bringing Timber Nook back to their own sites. You're not going to want to miss it. Let's go head out in the woods. Awesome. Let's go.
Speaker: Okay. So first we're going to welcome East Grand School to the Nook. And if you guys can all go around and say your name, what role you have in the school and something that stood out to you so far during Timber Nook training.
Speaker: My name's David Apker and I'm the principal. at East Grand School and what stood out so far is the facility, the the area is is quite impressive.
Speaker: Good morning, I'm Heather Grenier and I teach kindergarten at East Grand School and i think the thing that stood out to me the most was just the peacefulness of the forest. It's been enjoyable just to sit and take a few minutes to breathe and enjoy the peace.
Speaker: I am Casey Quinn, I'm an occupational therapist at East Grand School and i think what stood out to me the most is just the children and their play development and just watching them explore the woods and using their imagination and just loving life out here.
Speaker: I'm Laura Fogg, I'm a pre-k teacher at East Grand and I think what stood out to me is how the children have the opportunity to problem solve before an adult actually steps in.
Speaker: I'm Kim Hallett, I'm the Special Education Director at East Grand School. And I think the thing that stood out to me the most is like how involved the children are. Like they need very little prompting, they're off doing their own thing and not needed to be redirected or told what to do. I think just having that freedom, the kids are loving it.
Speaker: Yes. The less boundaries there are, the less there are to break. Okay, awesome. My next question for you is can you tell us a little bit about East Graham School? Is it public? Is it private? And um even just from your different role perspectives from each of you, what stood out to you as a gap or something that was missing that you think Timber Nook would help with and why you guys pursued Timber Nook as a school?
Speaker: So East Korean School is a public school. It may be one of the smallest public schools in Maine, but it is a public school, pre-K through 12. And from my perspective, ah and I've been at that school now, this will be the 28th year, and I've been both the principal and a teacher there, is...
Speaker: um
Speaker: The youngest children, not just the youngest, but we've I just noticed over the years that the youngest children are showing up with more and more difficulties. and that And it just struck me as there were some things missing.
Speaker: And of course, we see those things go through the the different grade levels. And i was we were familiar with Timber Nook. seven or eight years ago, I think it was.
Speaker: And so we had an idea of the gist of it. And of course, the team here involves special ed, OT, and the teachers. And there was a consensus across the board that this was a solution to the things that we were seeing because it integrated all of the the sensory, the social, the physical aspects that, you know, we could see we're we're really missing of no fault of the children.
Speaker: So that's kind of the whole gist of why we're here. Wow, that's great. Thank you. Does anyone have anything to add from their roles, what they were seeing in the classroom, in in the OT sessions, anything?
Speaker: um I know a number of years ago I took um some Timbernook training originally around 2000 and Timbernook was really a lifesaver for us during the COVID period because the kids were able to get outside. And right now with kindergarten, I know that the kids are very energetic and it kind of provides a nice balance. I think they're going to really enjoy the active role that Timbernook will play and then the academic learning when we go inside. Yeah, very complimentary for sure.
Speaker: Yeah, in the OT clinic I'm seeing a lot of kids who are dysregulated and have a hard time getting through their school day. So I think what I've seen so far Timberknoeck is a solution to what kids are struggling with. And I just really believe that um Timber Nook will help a lot of our kids in our community.
Speaker: So I really like what you said about um it's not just about the kids, the adults coming out into the woods. It is it's so good. Like when we had Jess Wilson on our last episode, we that was a big thing we talked about was it can be really good for the adults to get out there and just like being in touch with nature and just like being able to experience through these kids um what can really happen when you just like step back and you know let nature take its course basically it's just it's it's not just for the kids it's for us too and it's it was great to hear you say that without even talking about it to begin with so that's great what she really emphasized for us which i think was the first time that we at least i reflected on it was
Speaker: it's It is a lot for the teachers as well because they take a moment to step back, really see what these kids are capable of, and take a minute for themselves. The therapeutic benefits of just being in nature are very real, and it helped with...
Speaker: you know, the teachers overall quality of life too, which is super important. I can say that over the years of teaching pre-k that I spend more time now with behavior management and social emotional skills than I've ever seen in the past. And then also the kids, like there they are requiring a lot of adult redirection. And in Timber Nook here, they have to come up with that on them so on their own. So I think that that's a that's a huge benefit for the kids to get those, you know, start making those neurological connections as to what they need to do to to satisfy themselves. Absolutely.
Speaker: Thank you. Can I add something? Please, please. and the
Speaker: this This is another observation, not only behaviorally, but one of the other things that, and i've I've seen this with all kinds of students, regardless of the age, if we want to accomplish academic learning, um that's that's ah that's different on the hierarchy of needs than being able to self-regulate.
Speaker: And if we have four and five-year-olds or ultimately eight or 10-year-olds or 15-year-olds that can't self-regulate, academics aren't going to be very effective, if at it all.
Speaker: And so I see this as a priority. And if you're four and you're five, this is a great time to get this covered. Because if we don't, then I think the compounding of trying to...
Speaker: um You know, kid that can't sit still is going to struggle with doing, you know, detail-oriented things like mathematics and and reading. But a child who can learn to self-regulate and focus is going to have a much better trajectory for learning. So it really becomes a a very baseline need that we have to meet, I think, first.
Speaker: Thank you so much for saying that. That's so true. I feel like I always kind of say that Timber Nook is, it really offers the developmental solution like what you were saying that sets our kids up for success in the classroom.
Speaker: We are giving them the skills they need to best access their learning, um which is so great to hear that you're seeing that firsthand here at training. So what are you most looking forward to bringing back to the school with you from this training?
Speaker: I can add to to the question, um
Speaker: a a decent and I mean it's not going to be completely finished in terms of our understanding of how this is going to meet the needs but understanding how we can implement this to meet the needs and also to be able to to communicate ah why we're doing this and how this is going to benefit our children because mean it's new to us it's certainly going to be new to parents and school board perhaps and stuff because it's a it's an idea to them and to us or the way I'm thinking this is a solution so I'm gonna have to be able to
Speaker: to communicate, well, this is this is what we're doing and why we're doing it. and And I talked to Morgan the other day, and this is the data we're going to be able to collect.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. and And so in and of itself, i think I think that's what I'm looking to be able to do. That's the way I want to use it when we get back. Awesome. Thank you. And what is something that, um because you guys are in the middle of training week right now, you did some pre-training and now you're here at training week at headquarters. What has been your favorite thing during training that you've done this week that maybe was the most eye-opening? I know you said what stood out to you, but is there something in particular that that you felt was super beneficial to see firsthand at training week? but What was your favorite thing?
Speaker: I think my favorite thing to see was when there was an issue between the kids or like an adult when they had to go in because it is so rare, how that was handled, why they went in to talk to the kids and how it got resolved. And just reflecting about that at the end of the day with everybody to hear about everybody, because you only see certain parts. I think that was extremely beneficial because we're so used to just going in and dealing with the behavior or with the issue. And this allows like, so to know when to go in and when not to go in.
Speaker: Absolutely. That's great. I like seeing how they have put it all together. Like we we did in the pre-training all the different parts and why it's important, but to see it in action and how they're doing it with fidelity so that we can bring that back, you know, so now we've got like real life examples.
Speaker: I've really enjoyed seeing children use their whole body out here in the environment and um they are meeting developmental milestones indirectly by playing.
Speaker: And um that's what it's all about is um children getting their needs met and um meeting milestones and just thriving out here. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: One of the things that I've really enjoyed while we've been here is just watching the staging and the costumes and the props. And I see so many kids who have over the years kind of lost their sense of play. So I'm excited when we get back to see how that will help with creativity and develop their own sense of wonder. So I'm really looking forward to that. Thank
Speaker: I think the favorite part of the, but or the most helpful part, I would agree with Kim, it's ah it's watching the children and taking, if you will, the the the science behind um why this is being done and to look at how of the yeah the adults um manage it, manage it both very intentionally and effectively. And I think that's a piece that be honest with you, you could just take teachers out here and let them see that and regardless of whether they did Timber Nook, I think it'd be very effective because there are times to intervene and there are times not to and then of course, you know, there's times that things do need to be much more structured but the idea that they can solve their own problems given the right environment and this obviously offers that.
Speaker: Thank you, absolutely. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us. Is there any last thoughts from anybody that you want to share on the podcast from your role, from your perspective, what you've learned, anything that you want to kind of wrap up the East Grand School section with?
Speaker: I'm just really excited. Yeah. Awesome. We can't wait. for work Yeah, we can't wait to see how you guys, this program just flourishes in your school and the changes that it's going to make in the children and how it's setting them up for academic success. And so we're just really grateful that you're here.
Speaker: yeah thank you thank you Thank you so much. So as an administrator, what benefit do you see for coming to the Timber Nook training yourself rather than maybe sending some representatives from the school?
Speaker: Well, I think the first part, which probably is the most important part, is you get to see it in action and you get to see Why the in you can call it the philosophy, but the approach the methods are important um Without that those those ideas are not easily transferable to people until you see it and I know there are certain You know like occupational therapists probably get it right, but I don't think the average teacher or parent or board member
Speaker: understands why a certain methodology is necessary to get the certain outcome. I mean, if we're talking about, say, the social-emotional part of it, the need to step back and let children a problem solve, both physically, both interpersonally, The importance of that we know, but the way to do that, I don't think everybody understands it. I certainly um learned a lot by seeing that in action. I'm like, I get this. I've heard about this. I know the value of this. I get it now. I see how this leads to that. And I think without that...
Speaker: Unless there was someone from a school who was given in complete free reign I don't think it would translate um The integrity of it wouldn't translate well. yeah Does that make sense? Yes, the the approach with with fidelity. Yes, exactly right the fidelity would get lost Yes, because we do know like Timber Nook is set up very intricately to support many different developmental processes and it's important that people get trained in that so that they understand the why behind absolutely all of the different reasons we choose, what or Angela has chosen what she's chosen.
Speaker: um Being a part of a public school, I feel like that is a unique position to be in. what What kinds of barriers do you foresee running into by implementing Timber Nook in the public school and Why and how do you think you're going to over overcome those?
Speaker: Well, I can speak for our school and our school is unique because it's small. All right. And so a few people can have a much greater impact. But I know generally speaking, first of all,
Speaker: Timber Nook would be competing for all kinds of other and legitimate interest. You know, early literacy, that sort of programming, and and those are important. I think in my position and in my approach to things is, i think it's really important to figure out what matters the most.
Speaker: And I'm convinced, and this is why i do it unapologetically, and I'm you know I want to see this work is in my experience children especially the youngest children but all the way through and I've said this before um theyre they're showing up with with some deficits in self-regulation and ability to focus and just physical experiences they're not playing outdoors that's ah that's a fact of the matter and and
Speaker: um Those things, and we, 40 years ago, would never have appreciated what would happen if we took those away. Well, now we've taken those away because of our modern ah dependency slash addiction with technology.
Speaker: And now our children are are not having the same experience. And we didn't know what that would do. Now we see that. And so the long-term effects of those without being corrected... um
Speaker: it really does impact future learning. It really does. and yeah I mean, if I can't sit still or self-regulate or attend, my ability to learn things is really going to be compromised. So I'm convinced that this is a piece that is going to help our students um be prepared to be in school Because a public school is demanding. yes You know, you don't you don't do it just casually. There's a lot of expectations and that's the truth. And there's a place for that we need that. But to be ready to do that, to be able to navigate that, why not start when they when they show up? I mean, that's the goal of it, all right? And then we can work on academics once we've sort of established the routines, the the ability to interact, the ability to attend. the ability the The need to self-regulate, all of those things deliberately have to be taught and practiced. Perfect place to do it.
Speaker: Absolutely. And I've heard you say throughout the week, and that's this has really resonated with me too, is um that this is not just a philosophy but a solution.
Speaker: Correct. I'm convinced of that. Yeah, and I think a lot of what you just said does kind of bow to that, but i'm can you expand a little bit more on that statement?
Speaker: Well, what what I just previously said, I think if you went back in time 40 years, you know the childhood experience, and and I know Angie's mentioned this as well, um is and was distinctly different than it is today.
Speaker: And it's just because of our modern use of technology in particular, among other things, it's not the only piece, but among other things, our social situations and so forth, on family situations, is different.
Speaker: We would never have predicted that taking that away from children would have such an effect, and it has, and we've seen that, and it's taken a while to figure that, you know, that's the piece that's missing. um So without that...
Speaker: Again, I'm just convinced that that there are, you know, in human development, there are certain things that need to be in place for other things to to to grow, to to be achieved. so And I think most sociologists, psychologists, I think would agree with that if they if they understood and they understand, the people and people understand. But that's a piece that I think modern educators may or may not understand fully because we haven't talked about it.
Speaker: Yeah. You know? um
Speaker: I'll say this kind of controversially, I'm not sure the modern medical field is geared up to to two were address that in ah in a developmental way. yeah And I think someone like Angie or this program has kind of cued in and said, you know, i think we've got a solution here.
Speaker: And it's got to be because it's working. Yes, yeah. The outcomes speak for themselves. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Thank you. We, as a program, are... kind of going against the grain.
Speaker: I think what we're seeing right now is a lot of implementation of Chromebooks in the schools, um lots of and just increased screen time and that's not to say that all screens are bad. There there is a difference in what what types of things are being watched listened to. But it's also what you're not doing when you're on a screen. You're not moving in developmentally appropriate ways. That also needs to be taken into consideration. But it does feel like we're going against the grain. We're pushing back a little bit on what is currently being proposed um in in the school system. Have you run into any challenges of wanting more Chromebooks or more online learning
Speaker: in that in your school. So you you bring up a very good point and I'm gonna i'm gonna disagree with you in a good way. you know And what I'm gonna say is you are correct in that the the move to one-to-one commute computing, kindergarteners, first graders using laptops, and that has that has been.
Speaker: and But we're living in a time right now Jonathan Haidt and many people have pointed out that that move has been detrimental.
Speaker: And we are at a perfect time right now. And this is why I'm kind of excited about the Timber Nook concept is that you have a solution to problems that people, many people, so in even our own school, were like, wait a minute.
Speaker: um For example, one of our first technology committee meetings Everybody at the meeting was like, we've got to scale this back because we are not accomplishing what we want. You know, it doesn't make sense for kindergartners to be doing half of their work on a computer, never mind. yes You know what I mean? That's, that's that's you know, what are we at attempting to do?
Speaker: It's not helping our reading scores. It's not helping our numeracy. So if it's not, then let's step back. So the timing is, I don't think you're going against the grain. I think the timing is perfect to go with the people. And I think there's loads of people who are like, okay, we get it.
Speaker: So what do we do about it? yes This is a piece of what we can do about it. You see what I mean? um and i And when I look at our school, and again, I have an advantage of looking pre-K through 12.
Speaker: And I've been there a while. I've seen my own children go through it, now grandchildren, and I've taught and I've been the administrator there. um It really has changed the way people learn. But I think it's very timely as a solution to what many, many people a recognize. And if i give you a little anecdotal story.
Speaker: So while we were here, we rented a cabin together. I don't remember the name of the lake, but I'm just out being friendly. and And the neighbor just said, you know, what are you folks doing? I said, well, we're at a conference at Timbernoak, and it's for young children. and and And he says, I bet you it has to do with um little kids being on their phone too much. I said, well, ah yeah, it does. and And what it told me, it did two things. It told me that people are very aware of the need. He's a retired individual. And he has no he has no involvement in education or anything like this.
Speaker: But he gets it. and And he's the average Joe. And he and it gave me the opportunity to sort of articulate best I could, kind of practice my understanding of it. and he's like, oh, that makes sense. He says, I hope you do well at this because this sounds like a great thing for our kids. And if you will, that was a the average person. yeah So if that average person gets it,
Speaker: um Sure, there's there's some ingrained things that people believed technology was going to fix. But I don't think that's i don't think that's ah that's a ah ah current that that is still moving swiftly, so to speak. I think people are like, I think it's time to turn around. that makes Does that make sense? Very happy. And yes, it makes total sense. And I did lie. i just have one last clarifying question for you.
Speaker: um Do you feel that the same way about the push to get academics earlier and earlier in life? Do you feel as if that's also something that has taken a little bit of a turn and that people understand that that might not be the... Maybe we need to focus on developmental skills and play skills before kind of pushing those academics earlier? So that's going to be a harder one okay to move. The technology piece is a little easier because it hasn't promised what it was going to.
Speaker: There's plenty of time to do academics, okay? And I think culturally and traditionally and historically, um nobody has been behind.
Speaker: If we get serious, say, in kindergarten and first grade, if we get serious about academics in first grade, not that we're not serious and we really do it when in developmentally ready, we're not going fall behind.
Speaker: um I'm not saying that you don't expose them, but my opinion is This stuff needs to come first. not But developmentally, emotionally, that's just structurally it needs to come first.
Speaker: There will be a little bit of pushback because I do think there's this tremendous, you know, like
Speaker: early literacy has been a big thing, you know, and that has its place.
Speaker: But it's like everything else. What did we do 40 years ago? Well, children played outside a lot and probably somebody read them bedtime stories. Yeah. Okay. So the school wasn't needing to do that. Okay.
Speaker: So maybe we do need to read them stories. Yeah. But we need them to play outdoors as well. yeah You see what I mean? Yes, absolutely. And so there's a balance. We've got to figure out what matters first.
Speaker: I think the the baseline developmental... needs have to come first. So there's a time for everything. Yes, and it's not always an either or. yeah Right, we need to know the best time for all of these things. Yes. And do it, realize that what was given to us as a quick solution isn't going to work. Yes.
Speaker: And that it takes deliberate, intentional, ah effort with strategy and and I think we can do this. i'm I'm convinced we can. Thank you so much. Yeah, definitely feels like it's we need to prioritize about ah a developmentally appropriate balance. Absolutely. Developmentally appropriate balance is is correct. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. welcome. All right. And now we are joined by Trefford Way School out of Wisconsin. You guys could just go around give me your name, your role at the school and what stood out to you this week at training week. Okay, yeah. Thank you for having us here. um board I'm Karen Bartelt. I'm an occupational therapist at Treffert Way. And what has stood out to me most is just how these kids just negotiate and cooperate and work out.
Speaker: If they have any conflicts, they just work them out in such a positive way.
Speaker: Okay, my name is Heather Goldofsky. I'm our K-1 teacher at Treffort Away. And I think the thing that has most stood out to me this week is just um the opportunity for play and how it's Timber Nook is truly the full experience. um How interactive between the interactive play between the kids, the negotiations that are happening, and just really allowing the students and the kids to immerse in that play without the direction of adults.
Speaker: um I'm Jill Peterson, a second and third grade teacher at Treffert Way. And think what's really stood out to me, in addition to like the conflict resolution and the collaborative play that we've seen, is just watching the kids do their own risk assessment and knowing their own boundaries without an adult stepping in and saying, you know, and don't do that.
Speaker: Like they can figure it out on their own.
Speaker: My name is Kim Van Herwinen and I am workingre in the second, third grade room with Jill. I'm a paraprofessional. What stands out most to me about Timber Nook, I think is just the way the progression of how the kids, they come in and some of them are real shy and they stand out on their own.
Speaker: Next day they're alongside people just watching, observing. By third day they are totally immersed playing and it's just great to see their confidence growing. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: um I'm Maddie Splutter. teach sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. um And I think the biggest thing that stood out to me is just being able to see kids be kids again. um And teaching middle school, I've seen a lot of It's just all tech all the time. And so to come here and to just see the joy of playing with each other and more cooperation across age play and all of that is probably the biggest thing that stood out to me.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Hi, I'm Tammy Rademan. I am the 456 teacher at Trafford Way. um i think the thing that stood out most to me was the growth that I've seen in the kids over the year, like Kim said, but also just like the independence and the problem solving skills that the kids have. Thank you.
Speaker: yeah Thank you.
Speaker: So can you tell me a little bit about Treffert Way? Is it a public school, private school? Who do you serve? What grades? If you could just let us know a little bit about that background. Sure. um yet We are a charter school, but we are a public charter school that is authorized by North Fauna Lake School District. We serve students kindergarten through eighth grade, and we are open to all.
Speaker: um Yeah, we are open to all students. Amazing. Yeah, we follow a model called the Trefford Approach Plan that was developed by Dr. Trefford. Wow, thank you.
Speaker: Thank you so much. And what is something that you were seeing at your school that prompted you to pursue Timber Nook? Was there something missing, a gap, or what really motivated you to be here today? So we follow the Trefford Approach Plan, which has six pillars to it. Being um accurate assessment, developmentally appropriate,
Speaker: nurturing environment, natural environment, relationship building, sensory awareness and strength based. So, and this just really fit in. We were looking we were looking for, we're a project-based school, but we were looking for something to really fill all of those pillars and we came across the timber nook and we just thought, wow, that is, encompasses everything really in in one, with one thing. I mean, this is an intervention. This is a total intervention.
Speaker: Thank you so much for sharing. My other question is why Timber Nook over other nature-based programming? There's a lot of like nature-based therapies and nature, other nature-based education.
Speaker: programs. Is there anything that stuck out to you specifically about Timber Nook? Well, I had read the book, Barefoot and Balanced, which was really what drew me to this. And I had seen another provider.
Speaker: We went to a field trip at um winnebaker Winnebago Timber Nook, and we just saw what it did for the kids. And that was really the deciding factor for us to move forward you know with this training. um What stood out that's different is I really like the approach, the the stand back approach, that you give them all of the tools, you set the boundaries, I mean you you set it up for them, but then you stand back and you just really let, to see what they can do. And kids are capable of so much if we just get out of their way. Yeah, exactly. and
Speaker: That's been a theme, I think, of hearing from all of the trainees this week that one of the biggest takeaways is the difference in approach, in the facilitation approach between what we're so used to in the schools and therapies is like we we do we insert ourselves to so much and the being able to take a step back, giving yourself permission to step back, because sometimes it can be really uncomfortable, has is a really eye-opening process. It was certainly for me when I started. So it's cool to hear that that being a theme across all of the people who are training and continue to discover timber nuts. So what was your guys' biggest takeaway this week from your training week? What is something that surprised you or something that just really stuck with you from this week?
Speaker: um I think it was comforting to know that like the the things that we were seeing, the deficiencies that we were seeing were being seen kind of nationwide because there's so many different you know providers and schools here being trained.
Speaker: um so it's kind of like, oh, it's not just our kids. yeah It's, you know, it is a problem. And like, I love that this is an intervention and hopefully a solution for that. Thank you.
Speaker: The more and more I watched and the more and more it's progressed throughout the week and the more and more training that we have had this week, the more I realize how much of Timber Nook can be incorporated into our everyday throughout the school school day. um Our social emotional learning, this is being done right on the spot through Timber Nook. A lot of everything that we do um is just can be timber knock based so.
Speaker: I think too something that like I just thought more and more about as the week went on is just like we said how capable kids are you know like they don't need us to solve all their problems they've got it they you know they can um have conflict resolution and set those boundaries themselves.
Speaker: I second what Jill mentioned. The kids have the autonomy to just go out and use their imagination, use all the supplies given to them in nature, and just make what they want, use their imagination, be who they want, and they solve their own problems. They work things out together as a community with all the other children of different ages, and it works.
Speaker: I think my biggest takeaway from this is just the risk factor that is like within this. And that is one of the things that excites me the most. Like what I've seen in other spaces that aren't like ours and going to visit other classrooms and stuff is a lot of sit and get. And then like in teaching, they'll be looking for the right answer. So like instead of them like exploring different things, it's like, well, was that the right answer? Did I do that right? And so with like Tammy said, this being like a step in an intervention, I think that's what excites me the most is to see that within the classroom and not only like within this year, but then in the future. So like and me having like the sixth, seventh and eighth graders, it's going to be a transition for them. But as our program gets going and it goes all the way through the school, like the amount of risk taking that can then happen and in their learning and in the classroom is what
Speaker: really excites me about us moving forward with this. Yeah, that's a huge part of our community, so that's awesome. I think one of my biggest takeaways was, you know, you said two simple rules and they abide by these simple rules. Sometimes I feel like we impose so many rules on them in a classroom and that forces the anxiety and then they're always concerned, you know, am I doing the right thing? Am I following the rules? Here, you know, they're simple rules and they follow them and they conflict resolution and negotiation and everything is Resolved within those those two simple rules that you set. Thank you. Oftentimes we see kids when they're first at Timber Nook either from a field trip or Just their first time in regular programming. We see them So adult dependent we talked about it a little bit on the podcast. Well, they'll they'll come up and they'll say can I use this can I do this can I and they're just asking kind of whatever their next step is and I think it's because they become so adult dependent and prompt dependent. So it's nice to have a place where after a few sessions of Timber Nook they kind of discover in ah themselves you know their own creativity and their own um like risk assessment and to that nobody's nobody's assessing their risk for them but it's something that it's a skill for them to develop and that's just been really cool for me to see as I've joined Timber Nook as well. ah Do you guys have any final thoughts before we wrap it up that you'd like to share?
Speaker: um I would just like to share how impressed I am with everything that I've witnessed here and just, you know, what Angie has developed and is sharing with the world is just amazing. And I think it's been stated several times, this is an intervention in itself. Well, you can throw away all of the other interventions that we're doing. I mean, this in itself is really the intervention that kids need. yeah It's an incredible program. And just really thank you for um involving allowing us to be part of this and the um training just really immersing us in the community um and sharing and um just being able to collaborate with other schools of what this looks like bringing Timber Nook ah to our charter school is really going to be game changer for a lot of our students.
Speaker: um And I think that's the most exciting part for us. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you so much. Any other final thoughts? No? Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for being here. We're so excited to have you and I'm even more excited to see how you guys develop timber nook at your location and how it supports your students sounds like this is just really exciting and i can't wait thank you thank you and now we're joined by davis behavioral health um if you guys could just go around tell me your name your role and something that stood out to you this week at training week
Speaker: Okay, I'm Jess Martin. i am a mindfulness instructor for Davis Behavioral Health. something that stood out to me this week was the amount of spaciousness the kids have to play.
Speaker: My name is Rachel Reist and I help to coordinate and train mindfulness teachers. I also teach mindfulness and I'm a licensed clinical social worker. So I've come at this from the mental health perspective and I am just amazed by how how preventive Timber Nook is. like There are so many children that I've worked with that I think They really need Timber Nook.
Speaker: They just need Timber Nook. And I'm so excited to bring it back in a very preventive capacity to our community. Thank you. My name is Debbie Barley and I'm the Mindfulness Director at Davis Behavioral Health. and what stood out to me is the amount of fun kids are having in the woods playing and I've been surprised that their play just continues from day to day and it just continues to expand and evolve. That was really surprising to me.
Speaker: Thank you so much. um Could you tell us a little bit about Davis Behavioral Health and what you plan to do with Timber Nook, how you're incorporating it, what you guys what services you offer, things like that?
Speaker: Sure. So we are the nonprofit community mental health agency in our county. So we are quite a large agency. the three of us are in the prevention department. So in our prevention department, we have been going into schools already, working with schools, teaching mindfulness in the classroom. And we've just seen the need for something else. We're seeing a lot of children who we can see before they even get to the classroom, they they need more readiness to be in school. So we are going to have a site where we want to invite all the children in the community as much as possible. So we hope to have eventually after school programming and field trips as well as opportunities during the day perhaps for homeschooling families who could come year-round summer camps. We hope to do it all.
Speaker: What would you amazing. think that was great. Awesome. Thank you. And from your roles at Davis Behavioral Health, are what was something that maybe was missing or a gap that motivated you to pursue Timberknock? Was there something in particular? I know you mentioned like a preventative capacity, but was there anything in particular that you were seeing?
Speaker: Well, in our area, we're just seeing that children are not outside playing very much at all. okay And so they're missing the developmental benefits that should naturally come by doing that. And we don't have a lot of green space left in our county. There's, and a lot of children are spending a lot of time on screens. So that's something I noticed.
Speaker: Yeah. That's great. Thank you for sharing. Oh, thank you.
Speaker: um Having an opportunity to be in the schools this last semester, I noticed how hard it was for children to sit still, which really made me see that we need to look at other options to help them to not only regulate, but also to be outside of the classroom and to be in nature.
Speaker: Thank you. And what is it about Timber Nook that drew you here rather than some other nature-based therapy programs or nature-based education programs? Is there anything unique that you so that drew you here?
Speaker: know you're talking a lot, but I think you should take this one. He was the OG that told us about Timber Nook. Awesome. I would say...
Speaker: the philosophy of Timber Nook, the approach resonated with us the more we learned about it. it's like it aligns with the core principles we already believe in and how to work with children.
Speaker: And I guess specifically, like we have been teaching children mindfulness skills, but here we're learning, they naturally discover, they are learning through their child-led play experiences, so many of the things we've been trying to teach them. So it's this beautiful complimentary approach from my perspective. And we've just been so impressed with the, like the servant leadership of, you know, Angela Hanscom and just the whole philosophy resonated.
Speaker: Yeah. And I would say the um the power of nature, like that really connected with me when Rachel shared that with me. i was like, oh, i I feel that in my bones, like being outside nature.
Speaker: know this is what you have to do this is how you have to look this is what you have to say and just like being able to be in nature and let that just that healing that creativity that peace that comes from just being outside it's like yes i had that as a kid i want to give that to as many kids as possible yes love that thank you for sure and what are you guys each most excited to bring back with you to start at your own timuruk
Speaker: I am learning so much about the way that I have been viewing my interactions with kids and maybe it's because i feel very playful that I like want like when I'm hanging out with my kids I always want to like insert myself into their play and and so to be able to like just really step back and watch the magic unfold yeah and not be part of it is gonna is going to be new for me. And I'm i'm excited to bring that back because I i believe in it now. I so i see it.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: I am really inspired by the unique themes and staging that is part of what makes Timber Nook Timber Nook and how that inspires the children to go deep into their play. So I am i'm so grateful for this training and to to bring to bring that to children.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: think one of the things that I'm most excited to observe in the children is ah the stages of play, the curiosity, the their face lighting up.
Speaker: um You know, just as we've seen, you know, the children evolve in their play, some not playing with anybody at the beginning and then starting to make friends and then starting to negotiate. It's just lovely to see that developmental process in the children. And I'm excited to see that happen in our community.
Speaker: Awesome, thank you. Thank you much. Can add one more thing? Yeah. I think you were naming it and I was like, yes, this is this is maybe the the thing I'm most excited to bring back is to really create a sanctuary, a place for kids to come and be able to just be kids.
Speaker: Yeah. That's awesome. Yes. one of the things that's been really fun is the kids are so excited to come back. You know, and they don't want the day to be over.
Speaker: They just want to continue to play. And that was a little surprising to me. I thought, you know, after a little while they would get bored, but no, they just wanted to keep on going. And so that was fun.
Speaker: Yeah. It's so cool to watch. um And before we wrap it up, is there anything else you guys wanted to add to tell other parents, providers, future providers, any... Yeah, especially in the behavioral health world.
Speaker: yeah I feel chills up and down my body because i I see this as it's a very outside of the box approach to the typical medical model we're taking right now in behavioral health. And I think it is so needed. i have had so many of my clients come to mind this week. And I've just pictured like if they could be here, how would that transform things for them? And so I think a lot of um like invitation to mental health professionals out there, like consider this as part of your approach. We are so grateful to have administration in our nonprofit who's supportive of this. And if we could have more behavioral health centers around the country, around the world doing this, we could reach so many more children.
Speaker: yes That's one thing. Awesome. Yes.
Speaker: Cool. This, it works because it's so foundational. This is like what our ancestors did, right? This is like even just our grandparents, our parents, like being outside for long periods of time.
Speaker: That's just, as humans, that's what we need. And so this is like getting us back instead of trying out a new therapeutic model in a four-walled box room or a different approach or this or that.
Speaker: Why don't we just go back to the basics? I had one other thing. One thing that strikes me as being very unique with Timber Nook is that not only are the children outside and playing, but they are with a large enough group of other children doing the same thing. And it's just been amazing to see how much learning and development they've done in a week's time because they've had the opportunity to interact with so many different children. So I think that's like to parents out there, say your child is already playing outside, wonderful. But having the opportunity to do this kind of extended creative play with a group of 20 other children, profound.
Speaker: Wow. Thank you guys so much. Yeah, thank you guys so much for joining us today. We're so excited to see how Timber Nook evolves and and your at your site and all of the ways that Timber Nook can serve the community that you guys already serve. Sounds like so well. So thank you for being here and being on the podcast and sharing your thoughts with us. And now we're joined by Heather from Timber Nook Southern Vermont. So if you could just tell us a little bit about what made you pursue Timber Nook.
Speaker: Well, i ah was kind of drawn in by Briley. She's already a provider. She's the one who started Timber Nook Southern Vermont. um And i kind of knew what she was doing um when she went off to training.
Speaker: And we've kind of like worked parallel along each other for a couple of years in one of our local schools. And she asked me in April, I think, if I wanted to join her. She was definitely realizing that a lot more people in our community were interested in Timber Nook and needed Timber Nook. So kind of as an expansion of what she was already doing. um But I had a lot of background in kind of outdoor education, um just education being outside more so. um
Speaker: And i think the draw for me for Timber Nook was the extended amount of plays and the uninterrupted play that kind of sets them into their deep play.
Speaker: um And yeah, just learning a little bit more about that and the importance of it and um coming to training kind of just, ah well, that'll get into something else. so beyond that no worryries So you talked a little bit about the extended time of Timber Nook. That was something that stood out to you.
Speaker: Is that kind of what separated Timber Nook from other nature-based education programs or nature-based therapeutic programs? Or is there also something else that drew you specifically to Timber Nook?
Speaker: ah Definitely the extended three and a half hours is a hard amount of time to kind of like protect in any given like school environment I feel like and to see that happening in one of our schools was intriguing to me for sure seeing a school that was able to Find some time in their week or even their month that they could dedicate to that that time and protect that time I think Thank you And what is something in your community that you felt or you feel is being served by Timber Nook currently? Is there a gap or a missing piece that you're seeing in these kids lives and this community that you feel Timber Nook best serves?
Speaker: I think the. Kind of seeing the outside time slowly get smaller and smaller and smaller and also seeing schools sometimes opt out for some reason, bringing their kids outside at all during a specific day. Being in Vermont, most of, but most families are obviously families that live in town and don't have a huge outdoor space, but there's access to the outdoors. Yeah. um
Speaker: for everybody and seeing people not take advantage of that but maybe um a family sending their child to something that is ah safe, environmentally safe, or that the environment is safe for them I think that kind of draws people in a little bit.
Speaker: And people were looking for that, but maybe didn't have. an outlet for that or you know know how to go about that themselves kind of entrusting somebody else with their child to kind of guide them absolutely there's a lot of misconceptions i'm finding um about the safety of community-based play for kids absolutely and how our minds always go to the worst case scenarios but the numbers don't reflect our fears yeah and so that's that is something that i've also noticed is that um timber nook is an outlet where
Speaker: parents and, um, just families, they can come and feel a sense of safety. yeah Um, and then also come to get educated about maybe some of the other misconceptions that are out there. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Speaker: And what is something that you're, you're most looking forward to bringing back to, your timber nook in Southern Vermont with you?
Speaker: I'm excited to educate parents and teachers and kind of just the community in general. um I think there's definitely a preconceived notion that it's like chaos out in the woods and think this was a really unique camp to observe because it's kind of the opposite of that and i i think that's maybe um a product of these kids already having experienced Timber Nook.
Speaker: And I want to really get the point across that it is you know, the work is done beforehand so that when they are in the woods, it is... um it's kind of like a sacred time and a sacred space a little bit and it's not just let's hike out into the woods and see what happens like there's a lot of thought and purpose put into what we're offering yes absolutely absolutely thank you for saying that it's it is outdoor free play but there's so much more and so many intricate decisions that are made to protect the developmental benefits of outdoor free play for kids absolutely and it's so much deeper than what many people ah what it's perceived as yeah at first for sure yeah and is there any final messages you want to drive home to either parents providers kids teachers anything out there I was talking to Briley last night actually and something that I
Speaker: kind of just came up was ah when you step back and watch kids play for an extended period of time, there's so much happening. And it's it's more than just like, I'm sitting back and I'm chatting with a friend while I'm watching. I don't think you're going to find it there. I think like when you sit back and you observe like the very tiny moments, balancing, talking with another friend or even just the kid who's totally by themselves, you can like when you're like
Speaker: tuned in to it you can really see developmentally what's happening which is a cool thing to have experienced here and then also to try and like get people to see also yeah that's awesome thank you so much for coming out here and talking to us guys yeah of course thanks for being at training week and Can't wait to see what else do you guys do in Timberdooks, other Vermont. You guys have been doing amazing, I've heard. So yeah, thank you. I'm excited too. All right. So now we're joined by Laconia Christian Academy. um If you guys could just go, i was going say go around, there's two of you, go through and, sorry. If you guys could just go through and tell me your names, your roles at the school, and a little bit about the school itself and something that you stood out to you during this training week. Sure. um I'm Kate Chase. I am the preschool teacher at Laconia Christian, and I've been working with Laconia Christian and the Timberneck program for the last four years now. And um i thing right I think the part that I love the most is the progression that's been seen. through because we've worked more with the preschoolers um our program we used to just be one day a week and for them and it's gone into two and watching them grow and watching the program grow for that and um and me letting go in the process of um really understanding what timber nook is meant for for the children as opposed to what i want to see out of it so thank you
Speaker: I'm Lauren Trinka and i I'm an aide at Laconia Christian Academy. um This coming school year I'm going to be the kindergarten aide.
Speaker: it's going to be great. I've only been with Laconia Christian for a very short amount of time. i started the last three months of the school year. And so I did Timberneck for those three months and then I kind of fell in love with the program. I really love it so much. um And I think you asked something that stood out to you this week during training week. Yeah. Okay. Something that stood out to me is just like Learning about what Tim Brunick does for kids is just like the autonomy like letting kids be free like With some rules and boundaries like make sure it's all safe But they still have that Liberty that really stood out to me. It's something that I like seriously agree awesome make you know
Speaker: And can you tell us a little bit about Laconia Christian Academy for people who may not have heard of them before because they really that Your school really is a testimony for what Timber Nook can do for kids in the school system. and so um Can you tell us a little bit about the history of Timber Nook and Laconia Christian Academy? how like Have you guys had it for a while and kind of the structures of the day? um So we are a preschool through 12 school and we do our timber duck runs through preschool through fifth grade. I think we've had it for I think this is going on our eighth year, maybe ninth year. Don't quote me on that exactly. um And so our kids go out two days a week. For a minimum of two hours. And they're out fully immersed in the woods.
Speaker: Having been an alumni from Laconia Christian. It's been really neat to see the program. and how freeing it is we spent as growing up I spent a lot of time outside but you've seen the change in the school systems and how there's so much more time inside so it's been nice to see how much we've embraced the program itself and really have I feel like it's organically gone into our classroom and changed even how we teach and how we're on our playground and so it's allowed a lot of freedom for the students to really be who they are and let their bodies really be what their bodies need so I really love that about our program thank you so much you want to say anything?
Speaker: It's okay, I'm not saying. I want to say, I don't think you said it, mentioned it was a private school yet. So I wanted to clarify. in Private school. um And then I just wanted to say, like, I really love Timbernook in our school because um I've seen the difference in kids' lives. um I went from a job before this at a public school that had a lot of rules for the kiddos, and I think they really rebelled against them because they felt so, like,
Speaker: just restricted in what they could do. And so I think it caused them to rebel a lot. um But at this school, I see there's so much less like behavioral issues. You guys both mentioned that you have experience outside of Laconia Christian Academy in the school system. So my question is, what makes Timbernook different or more unique, uniquely serving the kids as opposed to other nature based programming?
Speaker: um So having worked with nature-based programs in the past, um there's they're all great. It's great to have a kid outside and in nature.
Speaker: All the benefits like physically just being out in fresh air is amazing, but there are a lot of times there's like a purpose to it. Like we're going to go and we're going to go for a hike in the woods and we're going to go and the zip lines and we're going to have, um, we're going climb a tree or we have to all take turns to do the next thing. And so it's great.
Speaker: And it builds, stamina for things and it does regulate their bodies but it doesn't give them the autonomy to be able to do really what they need to do to be able to have the freedom to move how they want to to engage or not engage I love that about Timber Nook that I can have kids that just sit back and watch and then eventually jump in um or kids that go full force into it and it really gives them the chance to do what they want as opposed to this is what we're doing next or even with the the elements that are out there for them to play with they have the choice to play with these things they have the choice to go and just sit enjoy the woods or to make a fort um or to get really muddy and messy. And they have all the choices to do that. I feel like that's a big piece of it.
Speaker: So another piece that I love about Timbernook in schools is I've worked with a lot of social-emotional stuff in the school system. And this, they're great. I feel like social-emotional pieces and really giving students the the tools, the words to use is very heavy in schools right now, which I love.
Speaker: But in a school system, we're not giving them the opportunity to use those skills. And Timber Nook, we are giving them the chance to be frustrated, to get angry, and then to take what they've learned in the school, all those words that they've learned how to use and how to regulate their bodies. And we actually give them that opportunity out at Timber Nook where we're not giving them that chance. Like I feel like if we're like, well, here's a social setting, what would you do in that social setting? We're actually giving them that social setting to actually fulfill those things, which I feel like is better equipping them.
Speaker: in the then in the classroom and then out in society absolutely it definitely helps with those the generalizability of those skills because they're practicing in real time with something that's motivating for them usually whatever play scheme they're in and peers are very motivating because yes there's a whole different social dynamic amongst a group of peers than there is with a teacher or and and a child or a therapist and a child um so thank you for bringing that up yeah
Speaker: um And what is something that you guys are each like most excited to bring back to Timber Nook from this training week that you've experienced? Well, I guess like now I know why we like allow all the freedom like I understand Timbernook a lot now. Like when I started it before, I was like, I have no idea why we're doing this. And it's like, this is crazy. yeah This is nothing I've ever seen before. And I was like, oh my.
Speaker: And, but I saw like the impact that had on the kids. And then I was like, this is the best thing ever. And then now I know why we do everything and like what it, helps the kids with like I learned like how it developmentally helps them and then I'm like this is so cool so now I just like what i I feel like I'll probably even feel more comfortable like at Timbernook being like oh this is for this reason like they're growing for this like I am excited to bring that knowledge back to the school to Timbernook and everything
Speaker: Oh, and I forgot another thing I wanted to say. I totally forgot about this. um Is I kind of have more of an idea of what to say now when kids come up to me with like a conflict they had with another student or something like that. um And like they're upset, there's an argument, whatever it is. um I kind of, I know what don what to say now. So I'm really like happy with that. I'm excited to bring that back because before I was like, what about you? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So now I know. And I feel like and now I know how to be a better support to the kids. So I think that it'll help with that. Because if I have like the teacher mindset and then I like bring it to Timberland, it's not going to like have...
Speaker: the impact that Timber Nook wants, you know, so now I like know. That's great. And it's awesome. I'm excited. Thank you. okay um Personally, having done Timber Nook now for the fourth year going in, um I feel like it's just going to bring like a a newness, like a more excitement that was than was there before. um Also being able to support the director that's already there and how amazing she is and being able to really like come alongside her and um help her so she's not taking on as much responsibility. So I'm pretty excited about that. But getting... having watched a totally different group because I'm with the younger kids watching the bigger kids. Um, it's exciting to bring back that bigger kid excitement and knowing what else can be done in Timber Nook. So yeah, I'm pretty excited to go back to our spot. so
Speaker: Cool. Okay. Uh, before we wrap things up today, are there any ah last messages that you want to send home with parents, students, teachers, anybody out there?
Speaker: Yeah, ahead. So I just want to say adults now, like in school systems and just in child care in general, I see a lot of frustration from adults and I have felt that myself with kids because it's like, why do they depend on us so, so much? It's like they need us for every little tiny thing. And a lot of adults get frustrated with that.
Speaker: But I think the reason why, and the training taught me this too, is like, The reason why is because we're controlling their experiences. because we are directing their every move. know what I'm saying? And so they don't know what to do because we don't give them a chance to figure it out. And then they go to us with everything and we get frustrated. It's like, why do you think they get so frustrated? It's because we don't let them figure out. It's because what we've taught them is to come to us. And it's like, how are we raising these kids in life? You know, like when they're adults, like they,
Speaker: we're kind of teaching them to go and ask everybody to do things for them or to tell them what to do and it's like that's not realistic in my opinion yeah no they're not really gonna survive like well not gonna thrive in the world you know with that so you know with Timber and Oak, it's teaching them to to be more resilient. Yeah, yeah absolutely. That resilience piece. for sure. yeah They have really practiced. Yeah, in the moment. Yeah, yeah and they're putting it into practice like at least twice a week, and it's just like for the entire school year. So it's amazing. Yeah, thank you Really learning. that's awesome. Thank you. That's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker: um I would definitely, for schools and teachers and parents, I feel like having been Timber Nook, because I was really nervous when. When my daughter was, I was first going to send my daughter to Timber Nook. She's now, well, my girls are older and they still are Timber Nook kids. and Like even whittling the sticks and painting their faces. And and so they, actually my oldest is at a Timber Nook camp helping out this week. And so, um but I feel like for them, i feel like it benefits everybody. Yes, it gets a little messy and there's some adjustments that have to be made, but there's no...
Speaker: time I feel like this was not beneficial even in the pouring rain and you think it's gonna be a horrible day because it's raining and those are the best days yeah so I feel like if the schools could really get behind it and the parents really get behind it I really feel like we could really change the world with a program like Timber Nook so yeah thank you guys so much thanks for having us we're so excited to continue to see Timber Nook just blossom at La Cona Christian and for you guys to be such a testimony for other schools yeah because you have been doing it for so long and you've seen the the outcomes of doing Timbernook for that extended period of time so thank you guys so much for sharing your thoughts. Thanks for having us. Of course.
