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Episode 3: Supporting Sensory Integration with Dr. Zoe Mailloux
40 Plays18 days ago
Join Camden and Morgan for a conversation with occupational therapist and Ayres Sensory Integration expert Zoe Mailloux as we explore how child-led movement and sensory-rich play environments support regulation, participation, and meaningful development.
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Transcript
Introduction of Dr. Zoe Mailloux and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, welcome back to The Nook. Today we have a special guest. Yes, we're today we're very honored to be joined by Dr. Zoe Mailloux, a leader in aerosensory integration and a founding partner of the Collaborative for Leadership in Aerosensory Integration.
00:00:15
Speaker
Early in her career, Dr. Mailloux worked directly with Jean Ayres as a research assistant and has since spent decades advancing clinical practice, research and education in occupational therapy, particularly in the area of ASI.
00:00:29
Speaker
And for anybody who is new to the podcast and hasn't been here before, I'm your host, Camden. And I'm Morgan. And we have a little joke we're going to kick off today before we hop right into the conversation. all right. So I'm asking both of you guys. So if you know it, shout it out. All right.
00:00:45
Speaker
What looks like half of a tree? Oh, gosh. What looks like half of a tree? Yep.
00:00:56
Speaker
i I honestly have no idea. pine I'm going pine cone. And like pint? I'm like, is it pint? how about you Something trunk? I don't know. The other half.
00:01:08
Speaker
Wait, what? The other half of the tree is what looks like. Oh, my God. I know. Okay. All right. I'll tell that one to my husband. He'll appreciate it. Good. That was a little bit of a dad joke. Yeah. Which I have a dad now, so I can make those jokes. Okay. Good for you. Yeah.
Importance of Sensory-rich Environments for Child Development
00:01:26
Speaker
So in today's conversation, we'll explore how child-led movement and sensory-rich environments support regulation, participation, and meaningful development, and why this matters now more than ever in a world where children are often overscheduled and given fewer opportunities for true self-directed play.
00:01:43
Speaker
So Dr. Mailloux, we're so grateful to have you here. Thank you for joining us. So happy to be here. And I love the work that you do at Timber Nook. It's just so great to have this effort underway to support children in their needs and their desires to move and be outside. So thank you for all your work.
00:02:03
Speaker
Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. Awesome. To jump right
Sensory Integration vs. Sensory Processing
00:02:06
Speaker
into it. um for listeners who may be new to sensory processing, how would you explain sensory integration um or sensory processing or even the nervous system?
00:02:18
Speaker
Okay, well, I can talk about sensory integration. um i know the term sensory processing does get used interchangeably, but I really don't know what people mean when they talk about that. So I'm just going to stick with sensory integration.
00:02:32
Speaker
And in fact, as you mentioned, I was so fortunate to have the opportunity to work with Dr. A. Jean Ayers at the beginning of my career, It was kind of at the end of her life, but she really dedicated herself to understanding the role of our basic sensory systems in supporting our development and the way that we learn and master skills in the world around us. And in fact, we now use the term Ayers sensory integration to refer to her work because there was so much confusion around sensory integration in general.
00:03:10
Speaker
So sensory integration doctors use that term to describe the way that we all, that all humans use sensory information to understand the world around us and to within our bodies then know how to interact. So her actual definition was the um the processing of sensory information for use, taking in sensory information so that we can use it to interact in the world.
00:03:42
Speaker
m Yes, thank you for making that clarification, like the functional outcomes of it is very important.
Misconceptions and Trademark Necessity in Sensory Integration
00:03:49
Speaker
um You kind of touched upon this, but the word sensory has become a bit of a buzzword in schools and social media and beyond.
00:03:58
Speaker
ah Can you explain integration? So what I think happened, so Dr. Urza is a very conscientious scientist, you know, and I think she struggled throughout her life because she had these brilliant insights into the way our nervous systems work, the way children develop.
00:04:17
Speaker
um And then because she understood that so well, she knew what children needed. And what they needed was play that was very sensory rich. And so she had this like dichotomy of being a careful neuroscientist who had ideas that looked like we were just playing with children.
00:04:37
Speaker
And this created a lot of criticism, a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. um you know, what what I think happened just, you know, having been around now for a while,
00:04:49
Speaker
how i my by the color of my hair, you can tell I've been here a while. um I think what happened really is that her ideas were so powerful, they almost took on a life of their own, you know, and there was a lot of interest in this work, even though it was criticized. And then when the autism basically epidemic kind of hit us in the nineteen eighty s There was so much overlap of sensory challenges, challenges in the sensory motor systems within the population of autistic individuals that it really created a lot of attention towards that work in general. And um so that even created more confusion because once something gets into the media and, you know, social media and television, movies, so forth, then it gets kind of stereotyped. So around 2007,
00:05:49
Speaker
You know, a group of people who had been interested in her work were seeing that there was so much criticism and that the criticism was really aimed at research that was not what Dr. Ayers had taught us about at all. So with her family's help, ah the term Ayers sensory integration was trademarked. And the trademark was not for financial reasons like it is for Coca-Cola or Xerox or anything like that. The trademark was only to clarify what she meant when she used that term sensory integration.
00:06:25
Speaker
um And so that helped a lot once there was more clarity about her work. and her ideas, then they could be studied more clearly. And since that time, we've had a lot of strong research that shows the effectiveness of intervention based on her theories that we didn't have prior to this clarity.
00:06:46
Speaker
You know, there just was research that was being called ah focused on sensory integration that had nothing to do with her ideas.
Training in Sensory Integration & Misuse of Techniques
00:06:54
Speaker
yeah when i I started to say she was a careful researcher. She chose the term sensory integration intentionally, because all of our basic sensory systems are taking in, you know, specific sensations, but immediately integrating that information with each other, the various sensory systems working together and with our motor systems as well.
00:07:20
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And to clarify for those at home, error sensory integration is something that you have to be trained in specifically, like we can't, you can't just give, um like, say, like a sensory modality, like a weighted blanket or a fidget to somebody and call it sensory integration. It's it's not, that's not the evidence based error sensory integration that we're talking about. Yes, that's exactly right. And part of this defining what we meant by air sensory integration included identifying the principles that she had put forth. And so passive application of sensation is not part of sensory integration. Air sensory integration includes very methodical, careful understanding of the individual, you know mostly with children because this approach has been designed mostly with the developing nervous system in mind, but the ideas apply throughout the lifespan. um
00:08:19
Speaker
So understanding what's working well, what's supporting a person and what is hindering a person from interacting fully in daily life And then um with based on that careful assessment data, planning very individualized, active therapeutic kinds of activities that will that are aimed at improving these basic functions.
00:08:47
Speaker
I actually had a question about that. So I know for a long time, especially when I was in school, when I was younger, they were really trying to push the, you know, the fidget spinners, the the little fidget things that, you know, the rocking chairs or any of the move around in class type of thing. Why why do you think that was pushed so much or why that was like such a strong idea? like Yeah. So thank you for that, Kim. that's actually was part of the confusion era, you know, where, you know, on one hand there was interest in these ideas of the importance of sensation, but then it was unfortunately kind of twisted and simplified to just, let's just throw sensation at people. And that's not how any of us operate. You know, everyone is very individualized. Everyone has their individual preferences,
00:09:38
Speaker
for types of sensation that help us to to interact more successfully, to feel calm, to feel organized. And we all have things that maybe are not you know quite so um interesting or appealing. And so this idea of just using sensory techniques ah is one of the things that led to a lot of criticism. And some of it came from within our field itself, not only from outside the field, but from within the field. So I think that happened because, you know, there's nothing inherently wrong with any one of those things, a rocking chair, a fidget spinner, a weighted blanket. Each one of those things might be the just right
00:10:21
Speaker
um experience for a person, but that it's not a one size fits all kind of world or nervous system. You know, everyone's very individualized and what each person needs should be carefully thought about.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's that's the for the the importance of, like you said, that the thorough and careful assessment. And then in the case of Timber Nook, I feel like we can get into this a little bit later when we talk about child-led play, but to allow the child to guide play because then they know what they need more than we do. And to give them time and space to do that because that's often limited in today's world. Absolutely. Yeah.
Overlooked Senses and Their Role in Movement Understanding
00:11:05
Speaker
um To bring it back a little bit, can you describe the senses for listeners who may not realize there are more than five? Sure. I'm always happy to talk about this. And so I don't really know how this happened, that from preschool up through college, our curricula teach people that they have five senses. And, you know, we do have those five senses that are taught, but we have... several other very important senses. And so this was one of Dr. Eyre's brilliant insights. And she realized that we have these very foundational sensory systems that are actively developing early in life, even before birth. But you know if we just think about from birth on, um
00:11:52
Speaker
we have some very foundational senses and two of them, we don't even teach our children that they have. So I often think, how could we possibly expect teachers or parents to understand that there could be something inefficient in a function that they don't even know they have themselves? It would be like if no one was aware that it was possible that someone could be nearsighted.
00:12:16
Speaker
And when we saw children bumping into things, we would say, pay attention. You know, why don't you look at where you're going and not recognizing that maybe they couldn't see as well as some other people can. So these the very basic foundational sensory systems come from within our body. The sensation is is very close to our body. So those include well the sense of touch, which we do at least teach people that they have a tactile sense, a sense of touch. The senses that we don't teach about are the position sense, knowing what position your body, all the joints in your body, your neck, all the way down to your toes. Everywhere that you have a joint, you have receptors that tell you exactly what position you are in at all times and how much through that sense, we also know how much force to use, like how much force to use when we're writing with a pencil or we're petting an animal or giving a hug.
00:13:13
Speaker
um That's called the sense of proprioception. And then we also have a sense that is located in our inner ear, the vestibular sense, that is like our internal GPS. It tells us where we are in space compared to the world around us. And it it plays so many fundamental functions that most people don't even think about. So this is a sense in your inner ear that responds to the pull of gravity and movement.
00:13:46
Speaker
through your head. So you know where you are in space through a combination of your proprioceptors in your body and your vestibular sense tells you exactly what position you're in, how you are moving, whether you're moving fast or slow, in a smooth or jerky way. But it also gives us our balance, our ability to hold ourselves up against gravity And so Camden, you're a teacher. You think about, do you ever see children kind of slouching and maybe falling out of their chairs a little bit? yeah All the time, especially with those younger kids. Like you can tell they're still figuring it out. Yep.
00:14:22
Speaker
Well, a lot of that is because their vestibular system has to support them to hold themselves up against gravity. And when we put our poor little children in these stable chairs in classrooms, um you know, they're, they are just fighting nature to try to stay awake because when we, when our bodies are still, and we're in a ah stable surface, our body thinks it's time, our brain thinks it's time to go to sleep.
Movement's Role in Learning and Posture for Children
00:14:49
Speaker
and we're not getting supported, children really need a lot of activation of the vestibular sense to hold their head up, to keep their body upright, and to use their head and eyes together. When your vestibular system is stimulated by turning your head, it has direct connections to your eye muscles, so your eye muscles can focus. So think about when you ask children to look up at you and back at their maybe worksheet or from one worksheet to another, if this sense isn't working very efficiently, the world is moving around. It takes them a while to find their place. They get lost and they have trouble staying in their seat. Their brain is saying, get up, move around.
00:15:32
Speaker
and This is one of the topics I really like to talk to adults about because what happens with this system the sensor sensory system is that it really matures at about puberty.
00:15:46
Speaker
And so if you talk, if you were to talk to children and ask them about movement, and then you talk to anyone who's already gone through puberty from adolescence on up, they have a very different experience with movement in general. if you know This doesn't apply to every single person, but the majority the majority of children need and want a lot of movement.
00:16:10
Speaker
And once we've gone through puberty, most adults don't really enjoy that kind of rotation and up and down movement like children do. Most adults tend to get more sensitive to movement. That's just the natural way of development.
00:16:25
Speaker
So as soon as that happens, adults look at children who are running around and trying to move and trying to keep themselves upright. And they're constantly saying to them, sit still, pay attention.
00:16:37
Speaker
And they've they've immediately forgotten that they never could sit still and pay attention. Sitting still and paying attention just don't go together. Even as adults, most of us don't sit in four-legged chairs for very long. You know, we need to move. We need we sit in chairs that have some movement swivel to them. And that's because we naturally know that we need a little bit of movement to stay awake.
00:17:02
Speaker
And we'll get up and move around. But children, you know, we expect them to sit still for hours and stay upright and pay attention. And it's so cruel, really. It's the cruel thing that we do. Yeah, that's awesome. i I'm not even going to lie. i didn't know any of that. So that's it's really cool to sit here and learn about that. And teachers, you know, we understand teachers are often afraid of the idea of children moving a lot in their classrooms because, you know, it's i mean, you have a lot of kids to control and take care of. yeah But we have found that when we provide. In fact, we did a great project with Angie, your director, years back, where when we provide the chairs that move for children,
00:17:44
Speaker
It doesn't get chaotic in the classroom. The teachers are always terrified at the beginning and they say, oh, my gosh, it's going to crazy. But it never is. They see that once children get what they need, they're much more calm. They're much ready, much more ready to learn and pay attention.
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's one thing I love about the school that I work at. It's a Montessori school. So it's all about. It's great. Yes, exactly. So these kids are we you know, we have a gross motor room. They they run around, they climb, they jump, they build with things. And then, you know, they go, they get their work mats, they set up their work mats. They're doing it's more about learning about, you know, your physical capabilities while still learning. um, actual things that you need to learn in school, but you're also, you know, getting that movement that you need so much because you're constantly moving around, setting up new things, putting things away. And it's all about developing your senses, honestly, which is really cool to see it all. So you you see it it. Yeah. I guess we don't have to preach to you. You've seen it in action. here yeah You wouldn't be here if you didn't, if you didn't buy it. Exactly. And getting that Timber Nook on top of it is just like double whammy. It's really good for these kids. Yeah.
00:18:54
Speaker
So i do just want to mention the sense of touch as well, because even though, you know, we do teach about the sense of touch, I know that adults just really have lost track of how critical what we call tactile perception is to our abilities. If you think about almost anything you've done today, you know, you got dressed, you brushed your teeth, you you made lunch, whatever, any activity that you did during the day,
00:19:22
Speaker
was really supported by feedback coming in through your hands, mouth and feet mostly that you were using to guide your actions. So the use of touch touch information to guide our actions is really just lost on most adults. And, you know, unless you've really studied this and you're kind of obsessed with it, like I am, because ah i learned about it from Dr. Ears, but,
00:19:48
Speaker
um You know, it's it's it's another thing that if it's not working well for children, we sometimes there's more awareness of sensitivity to touch, like being hypersensitive or bothered by touch. But there's very little awareness that your actual ability to discriminate, like the difference between, you know, two objects.
00:20:10
Speaker
You don't have to look and think about the difference. You feel it. And even, you know, if you're cutting vegetables, you can feel where the vegetable ends and the knife begins. You don't have to use the top part of your thinking brain for so many things that happen during the day because you can rely on your tactile perception. But when children cannot do that, even holding a pencil, you don't hold a pencil in one place. You move it around. You change the position based on your position sense and your sense of touch.
00:20:42
Speaker
And if that isn't working well, you never get that message to to make an adjustment. And so you're writing, you're cutting skills, you're folding, everything that you're expected to do at school might not be and its best.
00:20:56
Speaker
Yeah. that Another thing that really always, i don't know, it always amazes me. It's it's it might not be that exciting, but even hearing like the sense of hearing is so incredible to me because at night I'll go to fill up my water.
00:21:13
Speaker
with the lights off and I'm, you can hear when it's getting full, like just all the senses are just so crazy to me. Like it's so wild. And they're working
Touch in Sensory Integration and Daily Tasks
00:21:20
Speaker
together. And so maybe now when you go get that water, you're not only you going to be noticing, Oh, I can tell when my water is full because of what I hear, but you're also feeling,
00:21:29
Speaker
The weight of your cup and you how do you eat in the dark? How do you know where your hands are on your cup? You know that because your sense of touch is giving you that feedback. If you lost that sense of touch, you'd be dropping things, you'd have a lot of trouble.
00:21:45
Speaker
maneuvering and and you know exactly how where to press to get the water how to turn a faucet all of those little actions are highly guided by sensory integration using sound and touch and you know in in your example we're not relying much on vision yet we're constantly telling children look look at what you're doing yeah everybody always how old is your child camden ah She is five months old.
00:22:12
Speaker
Oh, so you watch that baby. She is really exploring the world through touch. Everything's in her mouth, you know, and she's going to spend so much time figuring things out through touch. yeah And it's in these first years of life that babies, you know, young children lay down the tracks so that later all of these functions are working very automatically for them. yeah And then the top of their brain is free to think about concepts.
00:22:40
Speaker
Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. That's awesome. um i i see patients at ah at a clinic. and lately, a pattern that I have been hearing from parents is
Impact of Environmental Restrictions on Sensory Integration
00:22:54
Speaker
that... um they I get kids for a emotional dysregulation or behavior concern is what it comes up as in the diagnostics. But um they say that during the winter months, it's a lot harder for their children. And whatever they're concerned about gets worse in the winter months. And um after I'm explaining to them the benefits, the the the sensory integrative benefits benefits of being outside and like for so many different things, like systems of the body that it does kind of click that, you know, Oh yeah, you're right. It is mostly in the winter months that these things happen. But I think we forget about all the benefits of going outside in the winter as well. Like the heavy work you can get with the snow and the, all of that, like how beneficial um that can be for kids. And so I, have you noticed on, on your, but in your years of experience, any like seasonal patterns where,
00:23:52
Speaker
there might be increased dysregulation during winter months when children have less access to outdoor environments? Well, I can certainly see that happening. And I live in Southern California. So yeah you know we pretty much have sun every day. It's almost the same all year round. So, you know, but I definitely see that. And i I, again, you know, the adult thinking, let's keep the children safe. Let's keep them inside, keep them away from the cold.
00:24:21
Speaker
And it probably is much more difficult for the children to have that further restriction of their space and, you know, their ability to get out and move um because of those restrictions. So I can definitely see that that could be part of it. You know, there's so many things that affect how regulated we feel, how much sleep we get, how much sun and light we get. Um, in our nervous system gets affected by everything around us. So, yeah, absolutely. And like you said, the kids wanted to go outside, like move the heavy snow. Every single time we go out for Timoran, I always noticed the first thing the kids say, you want to guess?
00:25:01
Speaker
Let's build a snowman. Yes. oh Every single time. Can we build a snowman? Let's build a snowman. They, you can tell their bodies need that. They want that. They want to go one and just like, let's even hoe. And okay I have to say, I've never heard a child say, can we build a snowman?
00:25:17
Speaker
yeah ah maybe a that's only because i've never been with children in the snow yeah yeah but they do want to build they do want to build at the beach as soon as we're anywhere near sand they want to build and oh me too i'm 23 years old i'll still go build a sand castle every single time Not in the in the rope swing. I find lots of spinning.
00:25:36
Speaker
yes Lots of definitely. Do you find that you have to like check yourself to not say, hey, that's enough. I have to be so I take care of little granddaughter now couple days a week. And I have to be so careful with the parents at the park because I'm constantly fighting this urge to tell them, just be quiet. Leave the child alone. He knows what he needs. The parents are constantly saying, that's enough now, that's enough now, because that would be enough for them. But it's not enough for the kids. They need that movement.
Encouragement for Child-led Sensory Exploration
00:26:09
Speaker
That is our biggest thing at Timber Nook, is we step back and they lead. They do what they want and we are there. to make sure that nobody gets injured or that's really all we need. Isn't amazing how you have, you don't have any behavior issues? You have so few behavior issues. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like what you were just saying with the swinging and spinning, we actually, at our Timberhook today, we just set up a, we put a slack line across the two trees and put up a,
00:26:38
Speaker
You know those disc swings? like Yes. the one with We started putting the kids on there. and ah Today was the really younger kids, so we were like helping them get on. and then Immediately, they were wanting to spin around and swing. They were just there the whole time. so yeah they They love it. so I don't know how much of that um aspect of training you do for the staff, but just to say to the staff, you know we understand some of what the kids are doing might Look like it would be uncomfortable to you. Just recognize that that your nervous system is different. Yeah.
00:27:10
Speaker
And if even though it'd be uncomfortable for you, it doesn't mean it's uncomfortable for the child or that it's going to disorganize them. We can trust for most of the kids, we can trust that they know what they need.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's always so frustrating for me because I work at school, but I'm also a timber nooker. So when I, uh, when I'm at school and we'll be at recess or the kids will be getting ready for timber nook, all the other teachers who are there will be, you know, like you were just saying, Hey, don't do this. Don't do that. That's dangerous. I'm sitting there. And I say,
00:27:43
Speaker
I don't say anything. And then all the teachers kind of give me a dirty look. And I'm like, well, you know, this is how kids are supposed to be. They're supposed to be learning and they're supposed to be, you know, like we always say, a a really important thing for the child development is the risk taking factor. um And I always say, I'm like,
00:28:01
Speaker
We are all humans are hard hardwired to not get hurt, not die, not do anything that's going to harm yourself. So like that, just that risk taking is learning those boundaries. You know, they're always, you're hardwired to not let anything bad happen. So it's good to let them discover their self-awareness and their bodies. Absolutely.
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah. So, and you know, with the vestibular sense, Camden, I think that because it's just so far away from common sense, that this sensation that you get when you move would have anything to do with being able to, with your posture, with keeping yourself upright or how your eyes work.
00:28:40
Speaker
That is just not a common sense notion. Yeah. so i know we find that the more we can help parents and teachers understand that connection then they may be more willing to join us in in our enthusiasm for the children getting these sensations because you know they want the children to be able to read and write and stay seated in yeah you know for longer periods well you get that when this system is working efficiently And the system works efficiently when it gets enough nutrition, which it gets through movement. And so somehow if you can help them get that connection, then they may be more willing to let go a little bit. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure.
00:29:28
Speaker
um How, well, how does a child's physical environment support sensory integration? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so children need time and space to explore on their own. And then what I find is that most children will look for and get the experiences that they need. You know, if they're maybe in the winter, they're not going out as much, a lot of children will jump on beds and couches and find ways to move things around and and get those sensory experiences if they're allowed to.
00:30:03
Speaker
But, you know, we have these rules about behavior and we, you know, because the parents don't understand that need, they're often restricting those kinds of activities. And then we have so many more demands on the children's time. So they're not, they're often so scheduled.
00:30:20
Speaker
with different classes and homework that they're not just having the time to come up with their own activities. And then if we have children who have some inefficiencies and a lot of the children who have sensory integration challenges, they're subtle, you know, they don't, they may not have a diagnosis.
00:30:38
Speaker
They may not have anything very noticeable. They may not look very clumsy. And so it's confusing because they seem so capable and smart, but they may be struggling with the way some of these systems work. And if that's the case, then they're not going to be as able to get the kinds of experiences that they need on their own. They might need more guidance with that.
00:31:01
Speaker
And a and lot of kids I find are just misunderstood in that way. Like it's so much, so much misunderstanding. That's why, you know, when we can do an assessment and we can show these differences, it can be very powerful.
00:31:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So we usually take a break about halfway through, halfway um to do our timber
Supporting Balance and Coordination Through Varied Movement
00:31:24
Speaker
nook tip. And it's a fun um tidbit that we give to our listeners. um And it's like an action item that they can take with them. So for this month, it is the, ah to allow for vestibular variety and um a child's balance system develops through movement.
00:31:43
Speaker
like we were just talking about spinning, climbing, rolling, hanging, changing head position in space. The vestibular system responds to motion and gravity. So long stretches of sitting naturally reduce the input that supports balance, coordination and body awareness.
00:31:59
Speaker
When we provide safe opportunities for varied movement, even the kinds that might make us as adults feel a little bit uneasy. um We're helping children develop stronger balance and coordination while teaching their nervous system to process sensory information more effectively.
00:32:15
Speaker
So that is our Timber Nook tip for this episode. The great tip. It fits right into what we've been talking about. It's funny we just talked about that. Yeah. Awesome. who So moving towards emphasizing that child-led play. Mm-hmm.
00:32:33
Speaker
What happens when adults over direct or over structure play?
Over-structuring Play vs. Intrinsic Motivation
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, one of the core principles of sensory integration and doctors develop this from understanding how children develop naturally in their nervous systems, what they need is that um active self-initiated kinds of activities are processed very differently in the nervous system than when things are commandeered or done to a child.
00:33:05
Speaker
So this there's this concept of intrinsic motivation that a lot of different people have written about. You probably have talked about this at Timber Nook, but... You know, we know, and if you just think about your own life, but the things that you just lose yourself in, that you can just do forever, are those things that are internally gratifying to you. Not because somebody gives you a paycheck or gives you a grade, but but because you just really internally get satisfaction from that. And so children, you know, they know, they get...
00:33:41
Speaker
that satisfaction from doing things themselves. And they know when they've been successful or not. When we have adults giving them too much feedback, too much structure, we're taking away that opportunity.
00:33:56
Speaker
And risk taking is part of that. you know That's how you learn by taking risks, making mistakes, falling, yeah getting a little bit hurt. We don't want anyone to get terribly hurt, but a little bit hurt, that's necessary. I was so relieved when my son said to me, when of the early times I was watching my granddaughter and she fell, And I said, oh, dear, you know, I'm sorry that i wasn't right there. And my son said, well, she has to fall. How's she going to learn? How's she going to learn to keep herself upright if she doesn't fall?
00:34:26
Speaker
yeah That was a relief that he got that, that he knew that she needed to take risks on her own to manage her own body and space around her. So when adults do too much programming or too much feedback, they're taking that opportunity away.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that was a big thing we talked about last time. We actually had Joelle Hanscom, Angie's daughter, was on. And that's one thing she said was really important when she was growing up is to just like be able to fall and figure it out. And it's actually funny that we're talking about it because that happened today. There was um one of the younger kids that was at Timbernook today.
00:35:02
Speaker
um He wanted to go up on the swing, which was kind of high up. i mean, high for you know them. And he started. He didn't want to be up there anymore. So he's like, oh, my gosh, oh my gosh I want to get down. um So he started to try to like throw himself off of it. And i'm like, that's kind of high. And one of the other people who was there at Timber Nook went to go catch him. And I said, no, let's let's let him fall. Like I stood behind him so he wouldn't like fall back and hit his head. But I'm like, let's let him fall. So he know like you know he's learning that risk-taking. He's learning what's going to happen. And i let him fall. He fell right on his butt. And he just was like, whoa, whoa, whoa So you know like they have to make these connections. And that's why you know just so even those little things are really important. What a great learning experience. yeah If you've seen the therapy settings that we work doctors have this idea. like We have to make a safe place for children to take risks. Yeah, absolutely. So the therapy rooms have four inch mats.
00:36:02
Speaker
You know, they're, they're very safe. And the therapy, I mean, there's a lot of emphasis on safety in terms of the therapist, ensuring safety, setting things up so the jaw can take risks in a safe way and making sure that you place yourself in a way where you're not interfering, but you're there to catch them if they're really going to fall and get hurt. yeahp um It's a big part of this intervention. Yeah.
00:36:28
Speaker
For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to hop into the school questions? Because I think these are yeah're moving into my section, which is first um advice for schools and parents, though. who Yeah, so um I guess my first question would be if you could give one message to school systems, you know, whether it be private school, public school, homes, through all of it will encompass it all
Understanding Sensory Systems for Learning and Behavior
00:36:51
Speaker
in one. um What would that be regarding children's nervous systems?
00:36:58
Speaker
Gosh, one thing, huh? So many. Or the biggest takeaway. If adults could take the time to understand a little bit more about the role of the sensory systems in learning and behavior,
00:37:17
Speaker
And, you know, so there's there's just not a one tip like that everyone should do for everyone. But if if adults, of teachers and parents could understand a little bit more about the role of these sensory systems, then I think they would be so much better able to identify when a child is struggling or knowing what a specific child might need in a situation. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Yeah.
00:37:42
Speaker
And how can school environments be adapted to better support sensory integration without becoming like the sensory gimmicks, you know, the things that are not rooted in
Adapting School Environments for Sensory Support
00:37:51
Speaker
evidence? like the So this, this is going to be my next project, probably till the end of my career in life. Um, You know, i Morgan mentioned that she's taking a program right now where she's learning some assessment tools that we have been working on for the last 10 years. That's taken a lot of time. But really, my pet peeve is how we set up schools with these stable chairs that don't fit anyone. Even if they fit a child in September, they don't fit them in June. Yeah. Very true. And you go look around your schools. There's not a single adult sitting in a four-legged stable chair, not the custodian, not the principal, none of the teachers. No one picks a four-legged chair to sit in.
00:38:36
Speaker
Yet we make our children sit in these four-legged chairs and then that are not the right height. So they're not at the right height for a desk. And then we're upset with them when they're wiggling around and moving around and getting up out of their chair. So I think the single thing we could do would be to make environments that support everyone, just like we do for workplaces. Go look at the workplaces. You're not going to find workplaces that have, you know, one size desk and one size chair for everybody who's there. There's very individualized work
00:39:09
Speaker
stations for people so they can be supported to do their work. That's the least we can do for our children is set up environments that are the right ergonomics, you know, the right height and sensory supportive.
00:39:23
Speaker
you know, without extraneous smells and sounds and too many things on the wall that are distracting. We can make the environments more supportive and give, you know, at the same time, giving opportunities for exploration and different ways to learn.
00:39:40
Speaker
Yes. Different ways to learn. Yes, absolutely. For sure. And moving on to parents, um what piece of advice would you give to parents looking to support their child's sensory system? I guess, you know, I think if parents and it's so hard when you're a parent, you have so many things on your mind. That's one thing about being a grandparent. I've been noticing that, oh, my gosh, I really can be totally present here. i don't have to be thinking about what I'm going to make for dinner and everything. You know, my next meeting, I still have those things going on, but I can really understand the importance of just being present and giving the child time to to do what they are driven to do.
Parental Guidance: Attention and Validation for Sensory Needs
00:40:23
Speaker
um You know, so I think if, you know, one of the things we often recommend to parents is just, this sounds so simple. It's something that we use at a preschool where I'm on the board. Give your child 10 to 15 minutes every day of your total undivided attention, no phones, nothing, and just do whatever they want to do.
00:40:43
Speaker
Give them that space and tell them they're going to get that time every day. if you do that, any behavior issues you're having, they're going to go out the window. If the child knows, don't forget tomorrow we get to have your playtime where you get to do whatever you want. It's going to take care of so many behavioral concerns. So I think the more that parents can spend, and it's it's it sounds easy, but we know it's not that easy. There's so many demands on parents.
00:41:11
Speaker
But if they can be dedicated to giving 10 minutes a day, 10 minutes, you know, and adults will say, what are you talking about? I'm i'm with them for hours, but you're not 100% with them. You know, you're talking to other adults, you have your phone, you're doing other things. Just give 10 minutes where that truly go in a room when it's safe, shut the door.
00:41:33
Speaker
let the Or go outside somewhere in the backyard, go somewhere where the child can do whatever they want to do. Every single day, you'll take away so many concerns. That's great. That's awesome advice, for sure. And what would you say to a parent who feels confused or overwhelmed by their child's sensory needs?
00:41:53
Speaker
Well, they need to find someone who can help them really understand their child. And it's not a quick questionnaire. It's not a quick observation. It's a full, solid assessment with from someone who really has the training to understand all these basic sensory motor functions.
00:42:11
Speaker
And unfortunately, that's hard to find. you know, there's a lot of therapists that just do the quick, let me take a look. I know, i don't know if you ever see Morgan online.
00:42:21
Speaker
If somebody ah will say online, I have a kid who does such and such and a hundred therapists are more than happy to say, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Try this, try that. Like i we'll just throw everything. You know, i hardly ever does someone say, well, did you do an assessment? do we know what's going on with this child? Let's be respectful and really take the time.
00:42:44
Speaker
i mean, none of us would accept this as an adult. If if we had ah a pain in our shoulder, we wouldn't go to the doctor and feel okay if the doctor said, oh gosh, I don't know. You know, it could be this, it could be that. Let's try a little bit of everything.
00:42:57
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. That wouldn't be okay with us. And it's not but okay the way we do we treat our children either when we don't understand them. So I'd say to a parent, find an expert, ask a lot of questions about what their training's been in and expect a full comprehensive assessment that really gets at the full possibility of explanations.
00:43:17
Speaker
Oh, that's great. Thank you. And then my personal favorite question... What would you say directly to a child who is often misunderstood because of their sensory differences?
00:43:30
Speaker
I always want to convey, I believe you, I believe you. you know And you know the children are so open to learning about these systems.
00:43:41
Speaker
with With my own kids, I always went into their classrooms and talked about the vestibular sense, the proprioceptive sense, the role of the tactile system. And the kids, even at very young ages, you know starting at four or five, they are they're so relieved to hear that there's maybe an explanation for why they are, they feel like they're experiencing things differently.
00:44:06
Speaker
So the, any way that we can convey, I'm going to, you know, everyone's different. Everyone has their own abilities and challenges. I'm going to do my best to understand you and believe you when you're trying to tell me something.
00:44:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. This whole conversation has just been so enlightening to me and just solidifies that. What a wonderful opportunity that Timbernote gives kids for to be able to follow their needs and to listen to their bodies and to and for adults to learn to trust the children.
Timber Nook's Role and Future in Sensory Integration
00:44:46
Speaker
that they It's so important that we let go of that sense of control and and within safety boundaries allow these children to to really explore and
00:44:59
Speaker
um Yeah. That's so thank you. Timber Nook offers such a great service. I wish that all the schools had a Timber Nook element to them, you know, the ideal. for sure. yeah Yeah, absolutely. It's in your, it's just been so informative to learn about, about all of this. So thank you so much. yeah want to close this off, Hampton? Yeah. um And also for,
00:45:25
Speaker
Those are the viewers who don't already follow you or know of you. um Is there a place that they go to keep up with your work or get connected with you or anything? you know, i I do have a website, but I have to say I haven't been keeping it up much. So I think the classy, the collaborative for leadership in air sensory integration, the web website is cl-asi.org.
00:45:46
Speaker
There's so many resources there. I have, I've written handouts for parents. So there's resources for parents and therapists that There's a lot of free webinars that are recorded on that site.
00:45:58
Speaker
I think the CLASI website really has the most available free resources for parents, teachers, and therapists. That's probably the best resource I could give. My website, I i just haven't kept it up. so Yeah, absolutely. we'll We'll be sure to link the Classy website in the show notes for everybody. For sure. Well, we appreciate the interest. And, you know, it just feels like the more we can do step by step to increase awareness, yeah then more and more children are understood and supported. And, you know, so many things that happen at school could be rectified with really just a little bit of adjustments. That's why I think this classroom furniture idea
00:46:43
Speaker
If we could change all the classroom furniture out in the country, in the world, really, but let's start with the country. um Imagine the difference that that would make for kids. Yeah, absolutely. So true. Yes. That insight is so valuable. So valuable. Yeah.
00:47:02
Speaker
Thank you again, Dr. Mailloux, sharing your wisdom and reminding us to trust children, and trust their senses and the power of play. It's really been an honor to learn and and hear from you during this. Yeah. Thanks. So nice. Well, it's been great to be with you. Thank you for your interest in all the work you're you're doing. Thanks. Yeah. And if this conversation resonated with any of our viewers, make sure you subscribe to the podcast, leave a review to help more educators, therapists, and parents discover our work. um Share this episode with someone who cares deeply about childhood development or sensory integration.
00:47:37
Speaker
And if you'd like to learn more about aerosensory integration and the work of Classy, we will link the resources in the notes. And I'm also going to post it somewhere up here in this video at some point. Great. Until next time. Thank you. Go play the Timberknock way. Thank you so much. Let's all go play. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much.
00:47:58
Speaker
Bye, everyone. Cool.