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Episode 4: What Nature Reveals About How Kids Move with Kathryn Kraft
37 Plays8 days ago
Physical therapist and TimberNook provider Kathryn Kraft joins us to explore how nature shapes the way children move. From uneven terrain as a motor learning tool to practical strategies for inclusive outdoor play, this episode makes the case that when we change the environment, we change the movement, and that every child has the right to play.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liveforempoweringkids?igsh=MXVuMXM0Zm05bWw3cg==
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Transcript
Introduction to Katherine Kraft and Her Work
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome back to The Nook. I'm Camden. And I'm Morgan. And today we're joined by Katherine Kraft, a physical therapist with a deep passion for movement, inclusion, and the power of the outdoors. So yeah, throughout her career, Catherine has worked across pediatric settings and led research exploring the benefits of hippotherapy for children with neurological conditions. um She's the founder of the profit live for the nonprofit Live4, which focuses on empowering kids through movement, and she continues to support children and families through early intervention and school-based services.
00:00:32
Speaker
um A long time advocate for outdoor play, Catherine was inspired by her own son's experience in nature-based education and saw a gap in opportunities for older children. That led her to become a Timber Nook provider where she now creates inclusive, multi-age outdoor play experiences for children of all abilities.
Timber Nook Initiative and Its Benefits
00:00:50
Speaker
So thank you so much for being here, Catherine. Thanks for joining us.
00:00:52
Speaker
Yeah, I'm so excited to chat about all things today. So thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. And before we kick it off, going to start off a little joke, the yeah major joke here. Why did the mushroom get invited to all the forest parties?
00:01:06
Speaker
I know. I think I know. Go ahead. Because he was a fun guy. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That was amazing. Morgan was going to get it when I was typing it out earlier. But no. Good job. Finally. the first where my I'm Let's go. Nice.
00:01:22
Speaker
Awesome. So I guess we'll just jump right into it. um From a physical therapy perspective, what stands out to you about how children move it in the timber nook environment versus um like a typical clinic setting or school setting?
00:01:37
Speaker
That's a great question. and one of the things that really was the first thing that stood out to me, even when I just went to headquarters for training, was there was a couple of kids there that when you're watching them walk on flat ground, you can really see they kind of have this like lazy kind of slouched posture, really not to their fault. We're a very sedentary community lifestyle in general. Kids are sitting a lot during the day. And when we're sitting a lot during the day, we're really getting tight in the front of our body. The back of our body, which we call the posterior chain, is getting really weak. And so we kind of have this hip position that our core doesn't turn on, our leg muscles don't really have to use, they don't have to work like they have to work when you're navigating uneven terrain. And so what I was really seeing when I was watching a couple of these kids at headquarters was when they started going uphill and navigating different areas. terrain stepping over things, all of a sudden their posture improved. It just naturally came up. Their hips came in alignment. They were standing a little bit taller. And so I just really wanted to observe kids when I was there to see what else is happening. And a lot of things come from that. And i also was noticing the kids that are bending down to pick up a log off the ground and they go to stand up and they're in this perfect squat position, whereas they're lifting something light, like a toy off the ground versus a log to try to build part of their fort. They don't have to engage their core. They don't have to move in a perfect posture, right? They can be lazy and still be successful. But when you put them in a motivating environment and a bunch of terrain where they really do have to work their muscles and strengthen their body, it is a really amazing thing to see how everything just the body just comes together.
00:03:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's
Natural Motivation and Inclusivity in Outdoor Play
00:03:16
Speaker
super insightful. Thank you yeah I feel like i that's so good to know that there's the the complexity of an outdoor environment with the various terrains and the the sensory complexity of it all can contribute to adaptive movement and engagement with that environment, it sounds like, which is really great.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of times these things that we're trying to recreate in the clinic, even if you take everything else out of it, take the medical term out of it, take all the things that I just explained in PT lingo, when you when you try to sterilize an environment and recreate the natural environment for the child, it's not motivating either. So when you're trying to teach them how to move in this movement pattern and maybe they're seven or eight years old, that's not meaningful to them. They don't understand why. They're like, you need me to pick this up off the ground? Sure, i can get it off the ground.
00:04:06
Speaker
There's no purpose as to why we have to fix the movement pattern for them if it's working for them, right? We might worry about long-term problems down the road if they're in an abnormal posture as adults go. We might worry, parents worry if they're going to have pain later. They might worry they're going to trip and fall or maybe they can't keep up with their friends. I have a lot of kids that just want to be able to run faster just to keep up with their friends, right?
00:04:29
Speaker
Well, you put them in a clinic environment, that is really hard to train a child to do. You put them in their natural environment where there's kids playing everywhere, where they are motivated to get to the other side of the woods or climb to the top of the boulder. And all of a sudden it is meaningful to them. And without even thinking about it, they're able to do the work that we can't get them to do when we're asking them to do. for sure.
00:04:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I know you talked a little bit about um building forts and running around and stuff like that. But um what other kind of play experiences do you see out in the woods that's like really leading these kids to build their strength and just become more coordinated in general?
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, it reminds me of a camp that we just had over spring break camp. And so we had a child out there that had both Down syndrome and autism, and he was nonverbal. And one of the things that we do for the inclusivity here at Timber Nook or at the Timber Nook that we're running out of Sauk City is that we really want to make sure that the parents know everything that there could could be to be known, right? We try to do that with all parents anyways. but especially our kids with disabilities. We really want to have a good conversation with the parents to really know as much as we can about the child so that when something comes up or there's some play that they want to engage in, that everybody feels comfortable with it happening.
The Role of Adults in Fostering Independence
00:05:48
Speaker
So one of the things that we do, or I should say don't do, we don't introduce a child as having a limitation. So when we come together for the welcome circle, everybody's there equally. what However you show up, you're an equal player in what you're doing at Timber Nook.
00:06:04
Speaker
And sometimes the kids will notice that there's a difference. Other times they don't even notice it. and But one of the really cool things that I see happen is that when there's kids that have really strong physical abilities and other kids that might not have as strong physical abilities, they come together and help each other out in the most beautiful way. So even if they're not building something specific, but they're just navigating terrain. And this example that it reminded me of He wanted to walk up a plank. Somebody had already built this plank bridge and he wanted this little boy wanted to walk up it.
00:06:37
Speaker
But every time he stood on it, he would just verbalize like almost like a help. You can really hear that it was help, but it was ah a noise for help. And after just doing that and me saying back and saying thank Somebody will help him. Somebody will help him. I know somebody will help him. After a while, the play became helping each other. So the kids noticed that he just needed a handheld to be able to walk up this plank. But once he went up the plank and came down the slide that they built, then it was his turn to help the other kids, right? Even if they didn't need help, it's now that's their play. Their play is I help you, you help me. So I really do see some really great multi-age play happening in unique ways that might not have anything to do with being outside. It's just, we're all together and we have different abilities. And now we have this opportunity to figure out how we can interact instead of an adult telling us how to interact.
00:07:28
Speaker
And that's one of my favorite parts about it. i love that. That's amazing. I have a question for you. Yeah. When you are, um when kids with varying abilities come to your Timberneck location, um Is there ever a time when us as adults, our behavior and how we react and respond to kids with varying abilities actually inhibits their growth and comes almost like as a barrier to them because we limit the challenge that they face because we almost view them as a more vulnerable population, which in some circumstances they they can be.
00:08:10
Speaker
and they might require different supports, but to find that just right challenge with these kids, to make sure that they are afforded the same opportunity as somebody who may not have the support needs that they have, to be able to access challenge, work through that challenge, and become ah have a feeling of resilience and confidence that comes out of that. Is there ever a time where adults really become the barrier to that growth?
00:08:37
Speaker
I love that you introduce it like that because my brain goes to every single time we intervene, we are the barrier. um I really believe that there are many times where we become the barrier to the child progressing. For example, in this situation, yes, one time, one time I offered my hand and then I like shamed myself for it, right? Because if I offer my hand to this child, it's now me as the adult helping instead of him having the opportunity to be helped in a different way. So to stick with this example, and then I definitely want to go into more about this because I do think it's really important for many people to understand. um What happened when I helped him is that I gave him probably too much support because in my mind, I want to make sure that you're successful and you don't fall. I don't even believe in that, it you right? Like I believe in the challenge, but that very first time,
00:09:32
Speaker
I just wanted him to be able to do it. And so as soon as I did it, I was like, oh shoot, I need to step away. And then there was a long time that happened before he came back. But when he came back and this time I stayed out, the kids that helped him, they did not give him as much of support as I gave him. And so one kid maybe let him hold his shoulder and didn't hold his hand. Other kids were holding his hand, but it was very unsteady.
00:09:54
Speaker
I still trusted the process. And what ended up happening was at the very end, he didn't need anybody to hold on
Children's Resilience and Risk Assessment Skills
00:10:01
Speaker
to him anymore because he didn't have a lot of support and he was already working on his balance. And he did gain the confidence by the end of that day to go up that plank by himself repeatedly without holding on to anybody.
00:10:13
Speaker
If we as the adult supported him every time, he would not have had that opportunity to gain that strength and fine tune his balance and get the confidence to do it on his own. So even myself makes those mistakes because it is sometimes tempting to think this little bit of help is not a big deal, but it actually is a big deal. um The other example I wanted to give that just happened today, i was working with another little boy actually in a school setting, but very similar. um And there was three adults in there. It was very awkward. There was like three adults to one child.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I heard one of the adults say, oh my gosh, this makes me so nervous. Oh, I said, I'm curious. What are you nervous about? I'm so nervous that he might fall. And I said, okay, well, he's about four inches off the ground. I'm not sure what's going to happen if he falls. What are you concerned about? Well, you know, liability, like immediately went to liability. And I was like, liability on you? Liability on who? Like if he falls, like a typical child falls every day what are you going to be liable for? And that just went to a different conversation. And really, we came back to it's not even that she's scared that the child isn't capable or she was scared that the child might get hurt. She was scared that she would get in trouble because she let a child fall down even without an injury there. And so you take that into a school environment. You take that you know, into these places where everything does have this red tape and everything is really monitored. And you think about all the kids that are restricted all day long in the school setting in all these small different ways.
00:11:48
Speaker
And it really is a shame because once they come out into Timber Nook and we really do step back, And give them the trust and the guidance that if they fall and they're taking the appropriate risks, they'll get back up and they'll try it again. They will try it much longer and they will be much more resilient when adult is not there to step in than if we were there to help. they will keep trying, they will keep going. If an adult is too close, and I witnessed this in Timber Nook, all of a sudden they need a Band-Aid, you know, or they need an ice pack. um If they see you they fall into that victim mentality. And it is not any different with a child with abilities versus disabilities. It's actually more important for kids with disabilities because they do not have that same opportunity to fail that we give our typically developing children because naturally we think that we need to protect them. um
00:12:40
Speaker
They do not need protecting. They are so resilient. They are more resilient than the neurotypical or typically developing kids that come out to camp if they're given the space to do it. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah that was that was really great to hear that perspective.
00:12:58
Speaker
It reminds me almost of children who become so dependent. We've talked about this a little bit on previous episodes that they become also on the ah kind of the other end of things really dependent on um adult children.
00:13:12
Speaker
safety monitoring for them that now um they don't have that ability to to build risk assessment skills and their body awareness just is that is not there. Like it's really um diminished.
00:13:28
Speaker
And that presents challenges across the lifespan, starting from a really young age when they're not able to access those risks. um And again, recoverable risks. We don't want to emphasize like hazards here, but like recoverable risk, like you said, he's four inches off the ground, he's going to fall. Like, that's okay. And he's going to learn a lot about what he is capable or or she is capable of doing in that moment. And those natural consequences are going to teach him or her more than us going in and doing it for them any day of the week, you know? Absolutely. We have a rope swing that's out at our location and it is just your standard like old gym school rope that's hanging down from a tree. And some kids are very capable of sitting on this rope, standing on the knot at the end, climbing up onto tires to get a bigger swing. And when they swing out, they really do swing far and high if they're capable of doing it And there are a lot of children that are capable and they know it right away. And then they see other kids struggling and they're trying to teach them how to do it. And sometimes the kids that are aware, this is too hard for me, they'll sit on it for a little bit, you know, but then they'll get off before it really swings too high. But I've seen the opposite. I've seen kids that are like, oh, you just did that because you did that. I must also be able to do it. So before even getting on the swing once, they will climb to the top to the tire to get higher off the ground. They will attempt to sit on the rope, but they don't have the hand strength. They don't have the core strength to actually squeeze that rope. And as soon as they go to swing off the tire, they drop to the ground instantly and almost like a shocked expression. Like, I can't believe that just happened. Like, how did that happen? But most of the time they won't quit at it. They'll reassess and they'll come back and they'll eventually figure out, oh, maybe I just need to go a little bit off the ground. Or maybe I do need my friend to hold on to me, or maybe I need to change my body position. But there are many kids that come out that first time and they will have a lot more falls, even just running on the train, tripping and falling, right? And getting bumps and bruises and just so shocked that they don't understand like how they're falling repeatedly. But these are the kids that don't pick up their feet when they walk, right? And now they have to activate their muscles to navigate the terrain. So it can go from very simple things, so trips and falls, to like very big thing, like going to hang from zipline or a rope, and we're going expect to have all the hand strength in the world, but really we have none. um
00:15:55
Speaker
But those are my favorite kids to see work throughout the week of Timberknut, because those are the kids that work finally have a reason to want to get stronger because they want to participate with friends and they want to ride that zip line. They want to be part of the team. And so they will sit there and try it over and over again. And yes, they will come home with more bumps and bruises and scrapes. But thankfully, those are the risks that are healthy for children to be able to have the opportunity to take.
00:16:22
Speaker
yeah I think I say almost every episode that it is so important for these kids to fall. Like you need, they need to fall. If you don't fall, you're never going to to get back up and do it again. and Right. Well, I mean, interesting.
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, the interesting thing, too, is sometimes when kids fall, another kid will, like, run to the provider. I don't know if you've seen this, too. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Oh, and so just fell. Okay, is there a problem?
00:16:47
Speaker
know, and then you prompt with the questions. Did they need help? Did they have a cut? What are you asking me to do? Well, they just fell. Okay, thanks for letting me know you can go play. You know, there's not this constant like running for a bandaid or running to fix it. Even if it is like a minor cut or scrape, those kids are going to come to you and they need a bandaid. They are. And if they're really in pain and there really was something wrong, like we are there, we will know it. But we are seeing these things happen. And so most of the time, if there's a fall, we've already seen it happen. We know what happened leading up to it. And we know we don't have to run in, right? um so it is very interesting to me that kids think that that is also something that they need to run and grab an adult for instead of just checking in and saying are you okay and sometimes that is the prompting question have you checked to see if they're okay did they say that they needed help you know so they learn to check in on each other that's what i do every single time i say when they come and say oh they need help they fall say can you help them they're like
00:17:47
Speaker
well they don't even think that the cop yeah okay I'll go help and then they go help and everybody's good or even sometimes if a kid does fall and they're crying sometimes I'll go over if it seems like i don't know maybe it was a good fall and I'll go over and i say are you okay and sometimes they'll say yes sometimes they'll say no and I'll i'll say alright you need to sit down or do you want to keep playing and they're always Okay, want to keep playing. I'm fine. Okay. And then they go run back and they're playing again. So that's the the best way to tell. But yeah, that's the take and tell us is important for them. You know, even when they're hurt, they just want to get right back out there and do it again. Yeah. And for people who may be less familiar with Timber Nook, I'm sure they've seen this trend like happening outside of Timber Nook where a kid will fall and adults will be like...
00:18:33
Speaker
Oh my gosh, are you okay? Are you okay? Like, come in and help you. And that almost, it really just, completely dysregulates the child, like who already is in a state of like, either a surprise or um shock or trying to process whether they're in pain or not, you're basically telling them that they, they have a reason to not be okay. And that, that I've noticed such a difference in my reaction um across settings from from my experience at Timber Nook, like I'll see a child ah just out at the store or whatever fall and I'll just kind of look
00:19:07
Speaker
and keep going. They'll let you know if they're hurt. Like they they're in the process of checking in with their bodies and exactly you will, you will know. And of of course you stay tuned in. um That's part of the Timberland philosophy is step back, but tune in. um But it's, it's co-regulation is so important for children. And if you are calm, you're collected, you are um neutral in a sense, um they're going to be able to tap into how they're feeling in their own body and say, oh, I'm okay. I can get up X, Y, Z. actually have a cool story. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
00:19:46
Speaker
Your turn. Okay. I have a cool story that kind of has to go along with the dependence on parents from kids. Um, So me and my coworker did a a little study of our own um out at Timber Nook. There is one kid who every Timber Nook seems to, when somebody steals from him or he can't use something that he wants to be using at that moment, he will start crying.
00:20:12
Speaker
And we know that that's not something you're going for. He's fine. So we decided, all right, this seems to happen every single time. We're going to do a test and see how long this
Parental Involvement and Social Conflict Resolution
00:20:23
Speaker
lasts. We did it a few times. And we're we're we're thinking, OK, so now we'll be able to see what happens at home, you know, when he's whining or wants to get something from his parents. So we timed it.
00:20:34
Speaker
And I'm not even kidding you. three times or It was either two or three times in a row, 42 minutes on the dot. He'd cry. It's a long time. And it's kind of hard to sit there and watch for that long. But 42 minutes?
00:20:46
Speaker
Boom, all of a sudden he's like done. So we're like, okay, that must be the time where mom gives in or dad gives in and goes and helps him. Or, you know, that's just when when he gets what he wants. But his brain is like already timed out, like on the dot every single time. So that just really shows you how much that parents or adult figures in general going in to help kids really affects them.
00:21:08
Speaker
i guess i last I have so many questions about that, right? Because there's so many different reasons why this can be happening. But do had did you talk to his his or her parents about it, their parents about it? Did you know get any insight from it? i have not, but my coworker has. And that's I think that's why he started talking about doing that little experiment is because he was talking to the parents and he was trying to figure out what was going on.
00:21:29
Speaker
So they're imagining. that up. Yeah, because I think sometimes we really don't know, right? We really don't know what the reason is behind it. And sometimes we have thoughts or we have insights and sometimes those thoughts can be completely wrong. And sometimes they're totally right. And it's really helpful to be able to have a little bit more information to navigate a specific child throughout the week. yeah I will say that one of the things that I've really noticed with parents is that They want to most most parents of, well, my generation is different than your generation, but we'll just say our generation for sake of age. um
00:22:03
Speaker
they want to do like they want to live the timber nook way right they want to raise their kids their timbrek way they have it in their head they've done the research they believe in it but when it comes to the action step of doing it it is really hard it is really hard to see your child be in true discomfort even if it's not true pain but true discomfort and one of the things that i think is really important to point out is every single timbernut provider that i've ever met is the most compassionate, genuine person, human that there is. All children want to be around Timber Nook providers because they're real people, they trust in the children, and they're still going to be there for a comforting hug if they need it. They're still going to be there to talk to them, but they're not going to do it in a patronizing way. right where they're really just babying the child, they're giving them the respect, they're asking them the question, they're still there to really care, but then they're really building the child up to be able to own these problems on their own.
00:23:02
Speaker
And you made a really good point, Morgan, earlier about co-regulation. And I think that is one of the key factors to why children at Timber Nook do so well is because they are constantly co-regulating off the providers and the support staff that are out there. And I've never once seen a support staff or a Timber Nook provider because I think we choose wisely when we're getting into this work.
00:23:22
Speaker
That was dysregulated so much that it just dysregulated the whole group, right? That would change the entire dynamic. And I think one of the beautiful things about Timber Nook is we have the time to do that. In the school environment, even if a teacher believes that, or in the home environment, even if a mom believes that, they also have a bunch of other things to do. They have to get dinner made. They have to have a shower. They have to have a bath. They have to get out the door. Right. The list of things that they have to do is never ending. And you can care and you can believe in the process. And then you can just not have time. And I don't have time for this now. So maybe 42 minutes into it, we don't have time anymore. We got to go. Let's go. Right. Exactly. That's what was thinking. Yeah.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. And so even if they're doing the best they can, you just you never know what the reason is why we have to give in and give in doesn't mean you just give them the thing that they want. But maybe it is you fix their problem a little bit more than you would have wanted to fix their problem.
00:24:18
Speaker
i I have the mistake of doing that with my own son. And as kids get older, like you can have that conversation of why is it that x y and Z? And they might be able to start giving you answers. So if at a young age, you really start acknowledging it or at least validating, like, I see this as really hard for you. And you are still in a state where you are safe.
00:24:40
Speaker
you You are not in an emergency situation. Your body is protected, right? Like you go through those things. Yes, you feel this way. And it might feel like you're going to die and you're not going to die. You're going to get through this. Right. And you sit there by them. Even if it feels like that is not making progress.
00:24:57
Speaker
All of a sudden, one day, you'll probably see this kid five minutes into it, move on on his own. Right. Like, because he's constantly seeing that he's OK. It's not an emergency. He's going to get through it. The plane is going to end.
00:25:10
Speaker
um And I just think that's a really important point. It's not that we're not compassionate people. We just really believe in the child and will be there when they really need it. But we have the luxury in the woods that there's plenty of time for them to work through it. Absolutely. And that's the beautiful thing about Timber Nook is that we provide them the time, space and opportunity to work through those feelings and eventually a pattern that i've seen across kids who are maybe newer to timber nook and who have um who are it's harder for them to regulate themselves and ah or or have a pattern like what you were describing where it's a long time before they kind of bounce back into play yeah um from a state of dysregulation it's
00:25:57
Speaker
It's like they are eventually that is going to decrease the time is going to decrease because they're given the time space and opportunity to practice that skill it is a skill just like anything else and it is hard it is a hard skill to learn um and so i'm just really happy that like you said catherine it's a it sometimes when we're in real life with our children it's we get into the schedule we it's we have the philosophy but it's harder for us to carry out that philosophy just because of like like life happens But in the Timber Nook environment, we're able to give that to the child. So it's really special. Yeah. i do think they bring that home with them. I've heard multiple. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Even within the week, like how much more, um like can improve their bedtime routine has been. Right. Like even within a five day span, parents are like, I don't know what you're doing out there, but all of a sudden my kid's getting ready for bed all on his own, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:00
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it always drives me crazy because I try to incorporate the Timber Nook idea into I work at a school. I'm a teacher, and I try to work that into the school. And ah most other teachers are like we talked about earlier, they you know they always want to help, help, help, intervene, intervene, intervene.
00:27:20
Speaker
And I want to give these children that opportunity to figure it out themselves, learn, even make them ah if they need to make a mistake to learn from it. That's good. But so it's so hard working in a school where we all know because we all went through school, right? Every single time something's happening, the teacher thinks it's their job to help, which it is. But at the same time, it's so good for them to figure things out on their own. I think the important part is the way in which we help. there There's been one time so far in our Timber Nook existence here in Wisconsin that I've had to have a Democratic meeting, um which is when it's most of the group is having a problem repeatedly over and over. And you're noticing that it's shutting down play and they're not able to figure it out.
00:28:04
Speaker
So then you call this Democratic meeting. We come together. And all you're doing is navigate, helping them navigate the conversation. And I always think of the school setting when this topic comes up, because how beautiful would it would be if a teacher was able to say or have the time to say, okay, it is now so-and-so's person to talk before you respond about your feelings.
00:28:28
Speaker
When they're done talking, and I want you to repeat back what you think they have just said. Right. Because a lot of the times the way that the kids are describing the problem, if we're not pausing the other person from talking and really listening and we're not giving them a chance to actually say what they think they just heard, they will hear something so far off than what was said. And then their response goes somewhere completely different that doesn't lead them to problem solving. And how beautiful would it be if even the adults in our lives like had this experience growing up, right? Because when you repeat back what you heard someone say, it is so eye opening hear what the kids come up with. um And then you try again. and then even when you say, okay
00:29:10
Speaker
I've heard you say this, is that accurate? I've heard you say this, is that accurate? What would you like to do about it now? And we'll speak one person at a time. And their solutions are never what I would have given them. And sometimes ones that I'm like, this is not going to be a good solution. This is clearly not going to work. I won't ever say that out loud, but somehow it works. And you're like, okay, well, kids' brains are clearly different than the adult brain. We know that And if we try to bring an adult brain into problem solving, they're just going to get mad at each other. It's not going to work. Our ideas are not going to be right. But their ideas and their creation that they can agree upon, then they're just running back out to play and they're ready to go. and that solution is their own. So there's a sense of ownership over that, that it motivates them for sure.
00:29:58
Speaker
i I kind of could you mind if I bounce into social conflict because I, I did want to touch upon because we talked a little bit about kids with varying abilities and how there are different supports like physically that the kids will um really provide.
00:30:15
Speaker
really kind of be step in in place of or instead of an adult stepping in to help them navigate physical um barriers or situations that might be challenging for them. But I wanted to chat a little bit about social conflict with kids with varying disabilities or varying abilities as well.
00:30:35
Speaker
because i think there is a distinction that we make as a as adults same thing as what we were talking about before um where we go in too quickly when there's social conflict when we perceive there to be um a child who is maybe has higher support needs than another um we will we will go in for social conflict as well earlier than we would and i think that also robs them from the ability to work through different social dynamics and um tap into problem solving and different executive functioning skills that way. Is there a time at Timber Nook where you've seen that kind of play out?
00:31:17
Speaker
Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. I'll start with a simple one and then you maybe get brave enough to work to the more complicated ones. um A simple one that has recently happened was with um pinching and pulling of hair. um So in my knowledge of this child and watching it happen, this was this child's way to communicate. i want your attention. Yeah.
00:31:40
Speaker
And I think in the school environment that I know this child in and likely the home environment, as soon as there's a pinch or a pulling of a hair, there is an adult and intervention immediately because we don't we don't want other kids getting hurt. But when you step back on it,
00:31:55
Speaker
and you look at the other kids responses to it, sometimes they just don't care. Sometimes it leads to actually playfully engaging and maybe minimal rough housing because they recognize that this child might not have the ability to like wrestle. They also recognize I'm not going to pull this child's hair back, but maybe they'll touch them on the shoulder or maybe they'll touch them on the chest. Right. And it's a little bit of physical play that starts from it. Um,
00:32:23
Speaker
A couple times I've had kids say very minimally, you know, so-and-so is pulling my hair, and then we lead through the Timbernut questions, right, instead of making it stop. It's not that I'm letting child just go harm other kids, but if it's a one- or two-time situation where it's clear that they're trying to figure out how to interact with the other child and the other child might get upset at first, you really do see them recognizing something is different about this child. It is not a bad different. It's just different. And so i should respond differently. And you can almost see that shift. Whereas like if a neurotypical kid was pulling in hair and punching, like not punching, we don't punch, but like just really being aggressive with the pinching, um that would start a verbal argument. But if a child doesn't have the verbal language to get involved in a verbal argument, the other kid has to now figure out how am I going to get this to stop in a socially appropriate way where I'm not,
00:33:23
Speaker
hurting this kid back. We're not talking it out. What are we going to do? And a lot of times it does turn into this beautiful play situation that most adults would have thought, i need to stop that right away. I can't have this kid going home and saying his hair just got pulled, you know? um But it it really does... so even itself out when kids have the chance to see what's happening and what is different about how the child is interacting with them. If that helps what you're asking for. it Absolutely. Absolutely. That touched upon exactly where, where I was going with it. um
00:34:00
Speaker
And also, you're not only provide it's beneficial for both children because it's not only beneficial for the child who um is working through how to respond differently but also for the child who's now who has varying disabilities or varying abilities to work out how to best interact with a peer and that they i mean we rob children of that opportunity a lot um so it's great to hear that that is something that you kind of step back you allow to to work itself out as much as possible and with the least amount of adult interact intervention possible
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah, I will say the pinching and the hair pulling stopped much quicker than it has ever stopped in the school environment. And so I didn't have to worry about it after i think it was day two. It just never happened again. And so i'm like, OK, so this does work. and The other example that is a little bit harder that I wanted to talk to you about was a child that was in a power wheelchair. And it was actually a night excursion event.
00:35:09
Speaker
And they were playing some version. i'm not going to remember what it's called. It's like hide the seek, hide and seek, but it's not. It's at night. So maybe it's like kick that. I don't remember what it's called. Anyways, they created this game that they were playing, but we had more than one kid in a power wheelchair because anytime that we have somebody that we're getting an outdoor power wheelchair at live for timber duck, We will get more than one chair so that other kids could also be in the chair and there's not just one kid in a power wheelchair. And then the power wheelchair becomes the really cool thing to have. And they have to learn how to share that large loose part, just like they have to share anything else. um But at night, you have to turn the lights down when you're playing like a hide and seek game. But the lights don't go totally off. Right. So the lights don't go totally off. So you're going to be easily found.
00:35:56
Speaker
And so they did navigate how they're going to change the rules a little bit to let this person hide to try it And then they will turn the their lights off after they hid and then go find them. Well, this particular game did not go as planned. And the child in the chair thought for sure everybody was cheating and you know, kept kept complaining, kept yelling that they were cheating. It wasn't fair. It wasn't fair. And then this carried on to like other events throughout the night. And then all of a sudden, like, even though they wanted to play with him, they're just like, well, we're not going to play with you anymore, you know, because you're too upset. You can't, you can't bend on the rules. You're too rigid on this is not what they're saying, but you're seeing that happening. They were trying to problem solve and they didn't. And so it is really hard not to step in at that moment. Cause you now see this child that has been completely excluded from the group, right? but excluded for a real pretty good reason, right? He wasn't just excluded because of his disability. He was excluded because he couldn't agree on the rules of the game and just kept yelling at everybody and complaining and wasn't able to regulate to be able to get through that moment. And so once that happens and they realize I'm not in trouble, like, cause this person might not have used the best words through this process. And we did speak to them about that since one of the rules is being kind.
00:37:14
Speaker
And there were some set out moments, um but not in a punitive way that would happen at school. For example, it was just like here at Timberdark, one of the rules is we must be kind to each other. If we're not using kind words, we're going to have to sit out of this one, right? So there's a combination of that as well as like, I really want you to be here. i really want you to be able to play. I can see you want to play. And I know that I can trust you to be kind next time that you try. And let's go back and try again. um So without that punitive part of it,
00:37:42
Speaker
as well as that natural consequence of nobody actually wants to play with me, kids step up and they change their behavior because they do not want to be left out of play. Like play is the most important thing to them in the woods. And so those quote unquote behavioral kids in the school environment, their behaviors shift very quickly out in the woods because if they're allowed to be excluded, which in the schools, we really don't allow that. Like we can't exclude someone. Everybody has to be included. Or we punish them if they use fault foul language and they're then removed because we've just punished them. They don't have the opportunity to come back from it and bounce back from it. And that is one of the beautiful things about social conflict in the woods with kids with varying abilities is that, yes, they might have a lot more a handful more of struggles and emotional breakdowns than other kids do, but we give them the time to bounce back
Impact of Natural Environments on Play
00:38:34
Speaker
and rejoin. And and I haven't yet seen a time where the kid hasn't been able to bounce back from it.
00:38:40
Speaker
I kind of have a follow-up question to that, talking about just um not even just kids with disabilities, but all kids in general. Do you notice that the, whether it be difficult terrain or, um you know, any, obviously Timurinoki's outside.
00:38:57
Speaker
um So do you notice that the terrain or positioning or surfaces ah changes how these kids play, whether it be with disabilities or without? Like, does it really make a big difference or do the kids kind of just...
00:39:09
Speaker
Figure the way around it. I mean, I don't know if this is just a live for timber duck thing. So I'd love to talk about that with other timber ducks. At some point, there is a hill on our location that always turns into the wrestling hill, rough housing wrestling hill. And it it will be hours where they will be wrestling. They will have come with agreed upon rules. You know, there's always an out. There's a safety word that they come up with if they don't want to wrestle and play anymore. But this roughhousing play that um we do allow in and the woods within the boundaries of the rules of Timber Nook
00:39:45
Speaker
i I don't see that anywhere else. And I don't know if it's because we don't allow that to happen. I mean, I can't imagine a school just letting kids wrestle it out for two hours. um But I don't know if they just have this need to get this proprioceptive input to their joints or just it's a biological need. and It's not just boys. It is girls. It is boys. It is all abilities just wrestling and rolling down the hill repeatedly for hours on end. And so like from that standpoint, I do think this environment totally changes how kids play and what they recognize they're able to do and have the freedom to do that they're not able to do in other environments. um So there have been many times where I say, i don't even know why i put loose parts out. i don't even know why i put out materials. yeah They might use them for a second, but all they want to do is play with each other and they come up with their own games and their own rules. And they're just coming together more as a group.
00:40:39
Speaker
and really learning how to socialize with each other instead of being separated by a screen when they're socializing. Right. um I don't know. I just think that physical connection piece is really amazing thing to watch when we have that human one on one connection in real time, in real space. And I don't think our kids get that as much anymore.
00:41:02
Speaker
Oh, no, for sure. Yeah. I mean, they're banning tag at schools. So it's definitely becoming more and more rare. yeah um i also, we we got really into great conversation that I kind of skipped over the Timber Nook tidbit. So I'm going to throw that in there now. This is a quick break to give you your Timber Nook tidbit for for the day. um So this week we're talking about when you change the environment, you change the movement. When you give access to varied ah natural environments, uneven ground, open space, and real obstacles, and then you step back and let the environment do the work. um Children then develop stronger, more adaptive movement on their own. um So that's your action item for for this month is to get your kids outside in various environments with dynamic complexity and um and let let the environment do the work for you.
00:42:06
Speaker
That reminds me today. was awesome. So in New Hampshire today, we had a little bit of snow, even though it was like 60 degrees yesterday, whatever. it's snowing all day. And our Timurneuk here at the school is a giant mud pit.
00:42:20
Speaker
So it was just a mud pit covered in snow. And I have a bunch of pictures on my phone from today of people just like waist deep in the mud, covered in snow. Like it was just so cool. So the snow, the mud, the ice, everything. So everything was there today. It was really cool. so many sensory experiences there to help you regulate that's amazing yeah for sure they were i don't even know why they were doing this because it was so cold but they were also doing mud masks too they were like like oh yeah yeah full-on like clan play like going right into the face paint yeah I will tell you, I think kids are way more resilient to weather than adults ever. yeah and We might keep a kid from going outside if it's too cold or too rainy, but when they're immersed in it and they have no other option, like they are regulating their temperature just fine. yeah i see them ripping off their jackets. I'm like, well, especially when they've been outdoors all winter, yeah then it's like the second it gets above like 40, they're like, oh, it's summer weather. oh They really build resilience that way too. Yeah.
00:43:22
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:43:25
Speaker
Let's see. i am wondering, we've touched upon this a little bit, but I want to know what are some of the, um what are some misconceptions that you encounter?
00:43:38
Speaker
about Timber Nook in general or kids with varying abilities? I would say about Timber Nook in general, if you're just to think about common misconceptions about Timber Nook in general. I think the first one that comes to mind, and I'm sure that other people have talked about it as well, is just, it's just Lord of the Flies out there. Like if you are not guiding the activity, if you're not telling them what to do like they are just going to go crazy and they're just going to harm each other and harm themselves. And where's the adult guidance? And so Um, I am really active about my email responses when, um, after people, I will share information on social media as much as I can, just like all Timbernooks are, you will really try to share that information. But in until a family experiences Timbernook and is brave enough to do that, I don't think they truly understand what it's like. And they do have a fear again, even if they believe in it. So one of the things I always do is I always follow up with our daily recap ah about the purpose of play and what happened in the woods today and what the purpose was behind all of that play. And a lot of times it comes up with that social conflict or that risky play and parents. And then we talk about kind of how we navigated through some issues. I really do try to leave a lot of things private for the kids that need to be private. But I do like to bring in some general topics if something happened out in the woods so kit so parents can have an opportunity to get a glimpse into what's happening.
00:44:58
Speaker
And every time parents have been so thankful and they're like, this makes so much sense. Like, this is exactly what my kid needs. Right. But they might not realize it until they get brave enough to take that first step. And I say brave only because it's different. And some people are worried to do something different, not because you need to be brave to be a part of Timber Nook, but it's different. And a lot of people are uncomfortable with different. And so I'm all about embracing your differences and let's give it let's try all the different things and so with it think when we can connect with parents to give them the confidence that just because it's different doesn't mean that it's bad that's really helpful yeah absolutely and i want to ask this question to you specifically you're the perfect person to ask this question um but where should someone start if they want to get into this inclusive outdoor play like you do so well over there
00:45:48
Speaker
like a person that wants to be a provider to do it or a parent that is looking for it? Anything, honestly. I would say like, what where do you start with the adaptations? Like what if you say ah for any Timbernook provider, um if a child enrolls into Timbernook and they are a wheelchair user, what is where do you start?
00:46:08
Speaker
So I always start with asking the parent a lot of questions because there are so many things that you can do and adapt, but we need to make sure that the parents are comfortable with it. And so um a wheelchair, just because you're in a wheelchair, doesn't mean you have to stay in a wheelchair. and doesn't even mean you have to come out in a wheelchair into the woods. And it doesn't mean you need a lot of expensive equipment or that you need to change your terrain. Something as simple as a sled will get a child back into the woods. Something as simple as multiple sleds and multiple kids pulling each other back into the woods will get a child into the woods. um
00:46:41
Speaker
Your staging can be a little bit different because if they are going to change stay in their chair, you might need to stage at different heights, maybe more on the ground, maybe more up high. I think the biggest thing is to keep thinking about the Timurnuk philosophy and to see how you can stick with it. You need to think outside the box. You don't have to be a physical therapist. You don't have to have a perfectly trained eye or trained environment, but you need to know the comfort level of the parent. and the ability of the child. So let's say, for example, they are going to bring their chair out there, but you can't get that you can't get there in their chair. So maybe they get there by a piggyback ride. Maybe they get there by a sled, right? There's various ways that you can get a kid back into the woods, and then maybe their chair is accessible and it can be used in the woods.
Inclusion and Long-term Benefits of Independent Play
00:47:27
Speaker
Maybe the only thing they need help with is transfers. Maybe they can crawl on the ground. They just can't walk. And so they want to be on the ground. So transfers is important for adults to do. i would never let a child transfer another kid, meaning if they're not able to get to the ground on their own and they need somebody to help them, that is something that a provider or a support staff would do. i wouldn't put that on another child because that is a safety concern there.
00:47:51
Speaker
But they can play on the ground. They can play on various pieces of equipment. and There are different ways that you can adapt the equipment out in the woods. and So we can go into that a little bit. But I really do try to make it very minimal and wait to see what the child is going to show me. Because most of the time you see a child for 10 20 minutes,
00:48:17
Speaker
And all of a sudden you're like, oh, this is the other thing that I can do. And then you just place those things around them to see if they might want to utilize it. Right. Like. you might need a reacher. Like maybe they really just truly can't reach the things that they want. So they can use one of those toy reachers and maybe that just becomes part of our materials for the day. um So things like that can be done after you see a child move. But I think the biggest thing you have to do is be willing to accept you're not going to know all the answers right away and willing to work through it with the family and the child, because you will figure it out as you go. and you cannot prepare perfectly without knowing the child. And seeing them out in the woods and the child will show you what they need. And then your brain will start turning. oh i bet we could do this. Or I bet we could do that. um
00:49:05
Speaker
I think that's the biggest barrier is people thinking they don't know what to do. but they but you do. you definitely do. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:16
Speaker
We're headed towards the end here, but I wanted to ask you um ah just a couple more questions. What does the right to play mean to you?
00:49:27
Speaker
To me, that means everybody has the chance to engage in authentic, real childhood play, no matter what their abilities are. I think of the Montessori method a lot when people ask talk about things like that. That's what I do. Right? Like you make things exciting.
00:49:50
Speaker
work for the child. You change the environment, you don't change the child. So you set up the environment to have success with the child. You don't expect a child to change. There is no child that doesn't deserve to play and have the same freedom as anybody else. um Really quick example. I have a child that I work with with a condition that basically their top layer of skin is just constantly shedding off. They have no protective barrier and they're kind they're wrapped in bandages basically from neck to toe. um And most people would think this child is very fragile. And rightfully so. He he is fragile in terms of his actual skin protective barrier. And he's bleeding a lot. And that's his life.
00:50:36
Speaker
But this child wants to climb, wants to play, wants to roughhouse. And if I were to treat him like I can't touch him because that's going to hurt him, that would be taking away his right to play because I was too nervous that I'm going to hurt him or other kids are going to hurt him. His parents want to do all they can to protect him, but they also want to do all they can to give him a childhood experience. So they're all about letting him play, letting him get on a swing and fall off, letting him figure it out. Because he deserves to play just like anybody else does. And so even with the most fragile conditions, the kid still wants to play. yeah I think it's our job to provide that opportunity for them and to trust the child and to make their decisions on how they want to play.
00:51:22
Speaker
Yeah, there's a kid at my school, almost the same exact situation. He has brittle bone disease and he's the kid who wants to climb the highest in the tree, jump the most. And he does. And he's yeah, he's always fine. And I'm like, this is awesome to watch like.
00:51:37
Speaker
like Like you said, we adults feel like they need to protect these children, but they they know what they can and can't do. And it's really awesome to see them like flourish, basically. like We always talk about the flourishing child. It's the coolest time to see these kids with, whether it be disabilities or they just have a hard time playing or whatever it is, just seeing them get out there and like just go wild. I love it.
00:52:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And that and the ah obviously, like if there are precautions to be taken, those are taken, but it's it's that you're not doing too much and you're not taking away the freedom or the right for that child to play um unnecessarily because of our own discomforts and our own fears.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um And if there's one takeaway you could give it to all the adults in the world, whether it be about children, inclusion, access, whatever it is, what would be your one message?
00:52:35
Speaker
I think I would say step back before going in. i think a lot of times we're so in the trees that we can't see the forest in front of us, right? So I think even if we're, for parents a lot, it comes to fear. That moment that you feel uncomfortable, i would i would suggest step back, take a breath, wonder why am i uncomfortable? What is it that's making me feeling uncomfortable? And it is different for every adult that you ask, but sometimes they don't even know what it is that is making them uncomfortable.
00:53:07
Speaker
And a lot of the times it uncomfortable. this is how I was treated when I was a kid and I was told this was wrong or I wasn't allowed to do this. And then there's this moment of, but hey, I actually really wanted to do that. as And yeah, I actually do want my kid to do that. But my natural reaction is I was yelled at for that. I was stopped for that. So now I'm stopping my kid and I might not even know why.
00:53:32
Speaker
So definitely I would say step back, assess and figure it out if it's not, a very dangerous situation that you're uncomfortable with. Um, and see if something else comes to mind before intervening or before even stepping in.
00:53:46
Speaker
yeah Yeah. a Perfect answer. Absolutely. And give yourself grace too, because this is a habit. This is a pattern that you have to break within yourself as the adult. Like we, like you said, you, you might have lived experience that, that causes you to think this way or, you, We're even just taught like that. you You mentioned liability before, like we have this ingrained in our brains. And um it's really important for us to try to break that cycle and give ourselves grace as we navigate through that and learn about it because it's a process. And I am forever learning about when the right time to step in is. And of course, you're going to... you're going to have kind of go through a lot of experience to to really hone in on what that perfect time to go in is and angela hanscomb does that beautifully so well she really is a great teacher and um just watching her she's like a lioness out in the jungle she knows yeah exactly when is an appropriate time to go in and when
00:54:52
Speaker
you really would be inhibiting their growth if you do. It's a fine line. Yeah, absolutely. The only other thing I ever point out to people, especially when they even see me parent, like, Oh, why do you do that? I'm so curious. Why do you give him a chance to say something? Or why do you do this?
00:55:09
Speaker
And I always say I'm in it for the long game. Like, i yeah I'm going to know my son a lot longer in his life as an adult than than I've ever known him as a child. He's going to need to be independent and a capable, hopefully kind and respectful, resilient human being for much longer in and his lifespan than he's going to need to be that as a child. We have a very short window to be with our child. And I think sometimes we forget that because it does kind of seem like forever certain days, absolutely but the short game might be really hard. But if you're in it for the long game, it will make sense the the more consistent you are and the more you keep trying and failing, just like our kids and coming back again. And the more honest and real you are with your kid about those mistakes and what you're doing. i think apologies and realness is just something that is lacking in our world today. Like we think we need to be the perfect parent. And so if we make a mistake, Why would I ever apologize to my child? Same thing out in the woods. Like sometimes I need to apologize. Oh, I stepped in too soon. Like I'm ah my, my bad, my apologies. I see that you've got this now. Right. Like I do think it's important to remember that we are in it for the long game and it's okay to make mistakes and give yourself grace. And also it's okay to talk to your child about that too.
00:56:27
Speaker
Absolutely. That's
Conclusion: Embracing Play the Timber Nook Way
00:56:29
Speaker
beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us today. That was, that was an awesome conversation we had. Yes. I could talk to you guys all day. So thank you so much. I'm so happy to be back anytime. I'm so fortunate to learn from you and your experience and what you're doing at Live4Timbernock is so inspirational and we should take the time to consider what Catherine has been saying today about making our, um, our spaces more accessible, but not taking away the freedom play for kids.
00:57:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you guys so much. Of course. Yeah. And for all the viewers, make sure to subscribe. We'll be on YouTube, Apple podcasts, Spotify, and we have our Facebook page, Instagram page, and now we have a brand new Tik TOK page. So make sure to go follow, subscribe, like, do whatever you want to do.
00:57:21
Speaker
And before we head out, we're going have you say our slogan for us. yeah So just look into the camera and say, remember to play the Timber Nook way. All right. You ready? yep Ready. Remember to play the Timber Nook way. That was amazing. Perfect. That the best one so far. Sure. Thank you so much, Catherine. It's been amazing. Yeah. Thank you guys. Yeah, of course.