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Exploring the Unbound Realms of Information Design with Sheila Pontis & Michael Babwahsingh
947 Plays10 months ago
Happy New Year and welcome back to the PolicyViz Podcast! In this first episode of 2024, I welcome welcome Sheila Pontis and Michael Babwahsingh, authors of the new book Information Design Unbound. They delve into the heart of information design, sharing their experiences in creating a pivotal resource for both students and professionals. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the ever-evolving world of design thinking and information conveyance.
Topics Discussed
- Origins of “Information Design Unbound”: Sheila and Michael discuss their drive to pen a comprehensive guide in the field of information design, recognizing the gap in educational resources for this burgeoning discipline.
- Collaborative Challenges: The duo sheds light on the difficulties they faced while integrating varied viewpoints and adhering to publishing constraints and deadlines.
- Educational Resource: With over 400 images and contributions from more than 65 experts, the book is a treasure trove of knowledge, featuring exercises and activities aimed at both new learners and seasoned practitioners.
- Design Education for Non-Designers: The authors emphasize the importance of teaching design and information design to students without a formal background in design, tailoring approaches based on the students’ areas of study.
- Professional Team Dynamics: An exploration into the various team structures within the field of information design and how they collaborate to address complex issues.
- Evolution of Design Thinking: A shift from creating traditional design artifacts to solving complex systems and wicked problems is discussed, marking the advancement in design methodologies.
- Cultural Sensitivity in Design: The conversation highlights the crucial role of context, audience, and cultural differences when employing icons and other design elements, acknowledging that design solutions are not universally applicable.
➡️ Check out more links, notes, transcript, and more at the PolicyViz website.
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Transcript
Introduction and New Year Greetings
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome back to the PolicyBiz podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabish. Happy New Year, everybody. I hope you had a lovely holiday season, maybe get a little rest and relaxation in there. I basically spent two weeks at home working very little.
00:00:28
Speaker
spending a bunch of time with my kids and my wife. Saw a couple of Washington Capitals games, got a behind the scenes tour of Nationals Park here in DC. Just a very nice, relaxing time. Read four whole books. That was really nice. Just sitting down, reading, drinking some tea, having some cocktails in the evening. A very nice, relaxing holiday. And I hope you were similarly having a restful
Upcoming Podcast Guests Announcement
00:00:52
Speaker
holiday.
00:00:52
Speaker
But now we're back in 2024 and I've got a whole great new lineup of guests for you coming up over the next several months. And we're going to kick off the year with the authors of the new book, Information Design Unbound. If you're not watching this on YouTube, you can't see that I'm holding up the book, Information Design Unbound, Key Concepts and Skills for Making Sense in a Changing World by Sheila Pontis and Michael Babwa Singh.
00:01:17
Speaker
Two folks I have known for quite a long time really admired their work, especially Sheila's previous book, where it's one of the few books that focuses on qualitative data visualization. So I really like that. But this book, they focus on how we as designers and information designers, so might be data visualization specialists, you might be a data science expert, how we can do a better job of communicating our data. But the focus is more on the process.
00:01:45
Speaker
And I think over the last few months of podcast interviews, you've seen more discussion on this show about the process of creating and producing effective data visualizations. I talked to Vidya Settler and Bridget Cogley a few months ago about their book, Functional Aesthetics. I talked to Jen Christensen about her book, Designing Science Graphics.
00:02:05
Speaker
Both of those books, including this book by Sheila and Michael, are focusing on this process of creating effective visualizations. So if you are in the field of information design, data visualization, data science, what you're going to learn from our conversation here is how you can build an effective team
Information Design Process Discussion
00:02:23
Speaker
and work your process through that team to create more effective visualizations. So we talk about different models for setting up that team and who might be a part of that team. We also talk about different cultures and different expectations that different cultures have about your visualizations and how you should think about that. And we also talk about research and how if you are a designer, maybe you don't have a background in research, what you need to be thinking about when it comes to research. And similarly, if you're a researcher,
00:02:51
Speaker
what you need to be aware of when it comes to the communication, when it comes to the design side of your communication efforts. So it's a really interesting discussion. I really do highly recommend the book. It's really just a lovely book. It's nice and big and great images and great writing and it's got all these great examples and worksheets in it that I think will be beneficial to those of you who are working in this area. So
00:03:14
Speaker
Again, Happy New Year. Welcome back to the Policy This Podcast. I hope you enjoy this kickoff episode in 2024. My conversation with Sheila Pontus and Michael Babasinghe starts right now. Michael, Sheila, hello. Good to see you. Kind of in person, virtually as close as we can get into in person these days. Great to see you. Thanks for joining me on the show. Thank you for inviting us.
00:03:39
Speaker
I'm very excited to have you for those who are watching the video I've got the beautiful information design unbound book right here. It is. It's lovely. I mean it's lovely in a variety of ways I mean aside from just content but just like the art is lovely and we're going to get into all the good stuff about this book well not all of it because then
00:04:00
Speaker
people will need to read it. And this podcast episode will be like 700 hours long. So we won't bother with that. So I thought we would start with just basic introductions, who you are, where you're coming from, and then we can dive into the content here. So maybe Sheila, we'll start with you.
00:04:15
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you, John. So yes, my name is Shira Pontis. I've been an information designer, researcher, and educator for probably more than 20 years now. I have a lot of experience in higher education. I live in four different countries, taught in different countries, designing four different countries. So I have kind of
00:04:35
Speaker
A very global view of the field. I recently joined Northeastern University as the director of the information design and data visualization programs. So I'm starting in January. I have also wrote other books about information design research.
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's yeah for sure. And I should say before we get to Michael like your field research book is one of the ones that I share with people qualitative data is just doing research just like a really nice like great book to get out there and do research. Okay.
00:05:11
Speaker
So my name is Michael Bob Wising. I'm an information designer. I've been working for close to 25 years on a range of projects ranging from strategy to branding to communication design and just straight ahead information design. I'm a partner at Sense Information Design with Sheila, and that's been the focus of my attention for the past 10 years.
00:05:38
Speaker
And yeah, I try to be active in the community and follow what's going on as much as I can and, you know, hope to make more contributions. We're also, Sheila and I, we are co-organizers of the Information Design NYC Meetup.
00:05:54
Speaker
which has been dormant for a while, but we do try to use that to engage with the community in the area. And just keep the word alive, keep activity going around information design. Right. So is that how you two
Motivation and Creation of the Book
00:06:09
Speaker
met? I'm curious about how you two got together to co-author this particular book.
00:06:15
Speaker
how far in time you want to go. We got together a while before the book came into the question. So what were the conversations like to say this book is needed and we are the right people to write it and we should write it together?
00:06:37
Speaker
So I can start if you want, Mike, and then you'll change. So having been in education for a long time and having taught information design to different groups of students, I always found the need to have one book that contains all the key concepts of information design. I always find myself like
00:06:57
Speaker
Grabbing a chapter from here, an article from there, a link, a video. I couldn't find one book that had it all, at least from an introduction point of view. I couldn't find exercises that were at different levels or complexities. So when we came across this project, to me that was an opportunity to say, it would be cool to have a textbook with everything there, at least foundationally speaking.
00:07:24
Speaker
you can build on but at least you have something that contains all the key concepts. Yeah I think just to build on that I think we both had like different experiences and different angles that sort of converge so Sheila's coming more from education and academia and I'm coming squarely from practice and from my experience what I was seeing was that
00:07:48
Speaker
we weren't showing the bigger picture of information design. There's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of interchanging of words and concepts in information design. Like some people say it's only data is, other people say it's infographics. There's people doing wayfinding, document design, technical communication. There's lots of different people in that space, but we're not talking about them holistically. We're not speaking about the field as a whole. And we're also not thinking about the practitioner.
00:08:16
Speaker
What does it mean to be an information designer? You know, what are the skills? What is the knowledge? What's the mindset you need? So all of this foundational stuff plus the world is changing. So infographics and dataviz are not enough. So I've been seeing that in my own work. Like I've been pushed into more strategic projects where a client just needs help figuring something out. And I have to bring that sensibility into that problem space and start mapping things out, working with them in a very rough form, but using the same
00:08:46
Speaker
the same approach as I would to an information design project. So how do we start talking about this and how do we start preparing the students and young information designers to think this way and to start approaching the field from the big picture and not from the atomic level of like how do you make a chart or a graph or
00:09:07
Speaker
you know, do you truncate the y-axis on it? I mean, yeah, we got to really take a step back. So for me, that was sort of like an important thing. Like, how do we tackle this big beast? And how do we make sense of our own field for everyone to understand in one book? And as an interesting convergence of forces here is that
00:09:27
Speaker
We've always been thinking about this. She and I have always been kind of debating what the hell is going on in the world and why don't people understand information design. But on Twitter, I saw a tweet by an editor at Bloomsbury. And it was it was almost like too good to pass up. She was she tweeted that they were looking for someone to write a textbook in information design. So that instantly was the catalyst like, OK, I got to jump on this. Yeah.
00:09:53
Speaker
So we basically contacted her and we filled out the forms and kind of a proposal and from there, you know, we signed the contract and we dove head on into the book development. So how long, just out of curiosity, how long did it take you from that point?
00:10:12
Speaker
to the end because there's a lot going like I don't think people who haven't published books before don't really know how much goes into this particularly a book like this that is so heavy on images and illustrations and there's uh
00:10:28
Speaker
cutouts and there's worksheets and there's exercises, which I want to come to in a second. But how long did that go? And what was, we don't need to go into all of it, but what was that process like? Did you lay it all out and say, here's the package, go for it? Or what was that process like?
00:10:44
Speaker
Let's say that so the first contact with the publisher was in 2016 for you to have a reference. I haven't finished my first book yet. I was just about to finish that. Okay. So we finished.
00:10:58
Speaker
this information is unbound in 2023. So it was a substantial amount of time. But I think to us what now in retrospect, what was interesting was how much we changed our point of view on the field, on teaching pedagogically speaking, on the exercises, on the types of the students we wanted to teach information design from 2016 to now. And I think probably what took us the longest was
00:11:27
Speaker
to reconcile both views and to work within the constraints of the book because you have a limited space, page count, so there are many things but also something we talked about is I don't want to write the book on information design
00:11:46
Speaker
equivalent of the ones that are out there. I don't want to repeat the same story because you can buy many books and you have the same. So kind of defining our point of view and kind of as Mike was saying, telling this more expansive approach of the practice that we saw emerging and emerging and then COVID hit and many things became much more evident. Like the role of information design was not only focused on infographics anymore. It started
00:12:12
Speaker
to have a much more expansive role. So I think it was a conversion of different things. We can keep talking at least 45 minutes, but as you said, the book has more than 400 images, more than 65 contributors. That took a year and a half of chasing, like, alone. So it's a long process.
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah. So I want to ask about this researcher teaching side versus the practitioner side. Because one of the things that I really appreciate about the book, and I would say other newer books have been out in the last year or so, is the inclusion of exercises and activities. And it seems to me that the exercises, and they're not quite for every part, not necessarily every chapter of the book.
00:13:05
Speaker
They are I sort of read them as really threading that needle where you could easily envision students having to do these exercises as part of their classwork, but also to Michael to your point when you're working with a client using them in that way. So I want to maybe start with you, Michael, like
00:13:23
Speaker
I don't really have a specific, I guess if I had a specific question would be, have you used these sorts of things in practice? Is that where they came from? Do you use them now in practice? So, and maybe, you know, how did you both come together to sort of develop the exercise sheets as they were in the book?
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think my response will be brief because I think this is Sheila's, this was one of Sheila's focuses was to actually really fine tune those exercises to make them as effective as possible to reflect the concepts and to really get students and people kind of engaged in the in thinking through what we were talking about in each chapter. But from my own experience, I mean, it kind of
00:14:08
Speaker
It blends a little bit more into the teaching side because sometimes in workshops you have to, like when you're training, when you're teaching professionals, it's a bit different from teaching students because there's a lot of ingrained habits, there's a lot of resistance to things. So the best example I can give is with visual thinking.
00:14:28
Speaker
People don't often, I mean, it is generally loosely associated, like people will make the connection with visual thinking and information design, but it's not explicit. There's no book like, you know, that actually tells you this
Role and Adaptability of Information Designers
00:14:41
Speaker
is a foundational skill. But when you bring it into professional, the professional environment,
00:14:48
Speaker
Like, I'm usually the one who has to get up in front of a client meeting and write at the whiteboard or draw at the right board and always try to encourage people to come up and use the use a marker and just start drawing because that's to me the most effective way to uncover information to synthesize information to identify gaps.
00:15:06
Speaker
So when you start teaching that to professionals, you have to find, okay, what are the most basic, basic things they need to know? And how do you make people comfortable just doing something unfamiliar and getting really in that groove of like, okay, this is another thing I can use to think about my problems. It's not just words anymore. I can draw on my notebook. I can draw on a whiteboard and a flip chart. It's just another way of working. So
00:15:30
Speaker
I think that to me was the biggest thing, like how do you just start easing people into a different way of working and build that comfort and confidence so that way they can do the more complicated stuff. So in the visual thinking chapter, it builds from
00:15:46
Speaker
Why do you need it? What are the tools? What are the basic elements? And then how do you start thinking diagrammatically? And then the exercises go into just like, again, how do you build a toolkit? How do you put the things together? And how do you start mapping and visualizing? So I think that to me is my kind of big kind of realization is like, you really need to break it down and take it a step back so that people feel confident.
00:16:09
Speaker
Once you build the confidence, then it becomes easier to layer on the more advanced things for professionals, for people who've never done it before. Right. So I want to come back to that in a moment, the confidence piece, because I think a lot of this is
00:16:27
Speaker
within groups and within teams, how people feel their role fits in or doesn't. And because there's a big chapter on that right at the beginning, which I found really fascinating. So I want to come back to that in a second. But Sheila, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about these exercises and how maybe you develop them. And I would guess continue to use them in classes and workshops and that sort of thing.
00:16:52
Speaker
So I would say probably for the last 10 years, I have found myself teaching design and information. Design do not necessarily students with a design background or art and design background. Probably if you only teach, for example, a person's school, most of the students know primary colors. Most of the students are familiar with design concepts.
00:17:13
Speaker
But when you teach, I don't know, more liberal arts education, I thought at Princeton for six years, the students don't have a design background at all. So that made me think that maybe readers of this book are not going to be designers necessarily or students with a design background.
00:17:30
Speaker
So how can we think about the students that are not software dependent, that are not only focusing on the visual side of the practice, but more on helping the students develop the mindset and start developing visual awareness of things, understanding how they work, understanding their own creative process, developing concepts. So all the more kind of invisible steps
00:17:56
Speaker
that I usually rush through. The book emphasizes a lot. That's why most of the exercises are analytical, self-reflective. And a part of them are like team related, but a few are very individual in the sense like I need to understand what I'm feeling comfortable with first. And then I'm going to be able to engage in more complex type of projects. So it's kind of also progression on that.
00:18:24
Speaker
It is interesting how students in different fields approach information design differently. And I mean, that's not surprising. Each field has its own intricacies and nuances and jargon and that sort of thing.
00:18:36
Speaker
So let's maybe pull these together a little bit. So in the first part of the book, so I'm looking at, for those of you who are following along at home, I'm looking at pages 46 and 47. You have these kind of four models of, for lack of a better term, teams sort of built out. So you've got the communications team, the experiences team, organizations and systems. And there's lots of different people who are all involved in information design, as I think any of us who's ever done any sort of project with any organization knows.
00:19:06
Speaker
And I thought maybe you could just talk a little bit about these different types of team structures and maybe we could do the similar sort of back and forth because I feel like
00:19:17
Speaker
I mean, you certainly both can, but I think Michael, maybe you could talk a bit about working with clients in these different models, and then Sheila, maybe talk a little bit about how students maybe see themselves fitting in these different places, because there are so many different roles, and they overlap, and the lines are sort of fuzzy a little bit. So maybe we start with the organizations in the real world, and then we could turn to students. So do you want to start a little bit?
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So I think yeah, because I know in podcast form, the visuals are lost. So I'll try to explain at least sort of the first piece of this story is really the challenge scale. So we are actually building on previous models of the design orders or the levels of design. So
00:20:05
Speaker
Richard Buchanan, who is very well known in design, academia, he's been very influential in establishing a lot of his thinking, but he introduced this idea of four orders of design, where you have four levels from communications and artifacts, the most concrete and tactical thing at the base,
00:20:27
Speaker
growing into products and services, experiences, all the way out into systems. So the whole idea is that design in general is growing. And this is now not news. A lot of people are starting to come on board with this, where design was once only artifacts and visual products
00:20:46
Speaker
Things that you could make two-dimensional, three-dimensional, but then over time through forces, economic, business, whatever forces, we started getting into services and experiences where now it's not just a thing I hold, now it's a place I visit. It's navigating physical and digital spaces. It's service design enters into this space where it's like, what are all the different things that I interact with that make this entire experience or service journey possible?
00:21:16
Speaker
And then we're going outward even more into organizations where
00:21:21
Speaker
you have multiple dynamics in organizations. How do you think about internal culture, strategy, vision, operations, all the way down to supply chain logistics, the entire stack of a company. All those things are multiple systems working within a giant system. So how do we start to think about designing within that organizational design? And then the biggest, so far, level is systems.
00:21:48
Speaker
So that's basically all the things we call wicked problems today. So climate change, you know, health care. So you have like things like covid massive problem, you know, we're still dealing with, you know, education, you know, unemployment, isolation of the elderly, you know, loneliness, things that are multi like entangled and kind of enmeshed with other things that is now coming.
00:22:14
Speaker
more to the foreground, a lot of people are starting to get really concerned and engaging in more climate-related things, environmental things, sustainability things.
00:22:25
Speaker
The remit of design has grown, but we're still trying to reconcile what a designer is doing at each level. How are we supposed to fit in? So winding back to information design, we're not the saviors. We're not claiming that we're going to fix everything at each level. But we do have a role to play in helping people make sense of things that are unfamiliar or complex. So from the tiniest icons all the way to the most complex system maps, we have
00:22:54
Speaker
I think a considerable amount we can contribute to bringing structure, bringing order, finding patterns, finding a hidden logic, as David Gibson of 212 says, we have to bring that sensibility and those capabilities into the mix.
00:23:11
Speaker
in order to align different perspectives, whether it's people working on an icon set or you know a community like a presentation even you know that's going to be for senior leadership like any one of those scenarios you need to bring that awareness of like
00:23:27
Speaker
How do people perceive information? What are the cultural dimensions? How do we even organize our research, make sense of it? All of the skills that an information designer possesses can cross all of those different levels. It's just you need to modulate what are the specialized skills in each one in order to do the work effectively. So I think when we get down to the models of each different type of engagement,
00:23:50
Speaker
We still have the same basic structure. So you're always going to have the designer and the design team. You're going to have some type of client and the client team. But you're also going to have this audience, people who are involved in some way, who are the intended recipients or audience, or the people who are affected by the intervention or whatever you're doing.
00:24:11
Speaker
From the simplest level, we've got an audience who's using a presentation or looking at an interactive visualization or database on a website and a stakeholder who might be providing the platform in which that's viewed or someone else who's related to that. And that same model grows into experiences where you still have the designer, the client,
00:24:34
Speaker
someone who's trying to navigate a website or physical space and a stakeholder who is somehow involved in that. But then when you get into organizations and systems, that's when you have many different stakeholders, many different people in the mix, like an entire like different stakeholders at an organization, you know, from senior leadership, middle managers all the way down to like frontline workers, they may be engaged at different places and points in time within an organizational transformation initiative or change initiative.
00:25:02
Speaker
And then at systems level, you have got communities, you've got nonprofits, you've got all different players, government players, all mixing in to make sense of the situation. So it's a lot and I could keep rambling, but I think having those pictures, at least setting the stage, we hope it helps information designers see like, what is the landscape? Who do I need to account for?
00:25:27
Speaker
And then how do I start to think about my role? How does it change from one to the other, from one scenario to the other?
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, and the other thing, and you alluded to this, and I feel like this is maybe people don't quite always see this when they're in school, and we'll come to that piece in a second, but it's not just external, right? It's not always just external communication. There's a lot of internal communication that needs to happen so that when you are building that, the structure of your organization, that information designers can have a role in helping that process take place inside the organization. It doesn't always have to be
00:26:01
Speaker
you know, out on the website for external viewers can have that internal piece. So Sheila, when you work with your students or even clients, I guess, how do you get them thinking about the broader team rather than just like, I do this thing, I do illustrations and that's all I do.
00:26:20
Speaker
So we'd actually like happy that you picked this spread because we put a lot of work to try to convey the message and actually pages 46 and 47 are featuring the blueprint that we are introducing on page 21, which is the blueprint that information is in project. And I think our goal was to show how the same elements of that
00:26:44
Speaker
as the complexity of a project increases and how there are many more players and interactions become much more complex.
00:26:53
Speaker
between these players. So the way we introduce these in education is, first of all, breaking with the idea of the solo designer, that the designer grabs the brief from the client, goes into the shower, is hit by an idea, and comes up with an amazing solution. So that kind of linear model that at least I was taught by more than 20 years ago in school is no longer valid, and it doesn't really represent
00:27:21
Speaker
the current role that information designers and also designers in general have. So this is a way of showing the students, okay, you're the designer, you're going to be interacting with all these different players and the more complex the challenge you're going to be involved in, the more players you're going to be interacting with. And as you mentioned, we're talking the book about
00:27:44
Speaker
when you're working in really complex challenges, organizations or systems, we are focusing on developing internal sense making in the sense it's like achieving an internal understanding within the group rather than creating external communication for someone else, which is related to what you were saying. So helping the students understand the difference between
00:28:08
Speaker
designing something for someone else to understand versus first achieving internal alignment and understanding in order to decide what's the best way forward. They're kind of different positions to be in, but having a clear distinction between these two roles is important for the students which don't even think that holistically.
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah. Let me ask, so you said when you were, you know, started out like 20 years ago and it was this linear model, do you think that linear model was correct even then? I mean, I think it probably is still correct if you have a very small design studio and you're only focused on designing very framed communication artifacts like an infographic or a report. It does still work. I'm not destroying it, but I think it doesn't represent
00:29:01
Speaker
the full variety of information design challenges. That's why I think it's better to teach something more expansive because if it is a very simple project, okay, it becomes a much less complex interaction with your client. But if the students only see the linear model, how do I work when I have teams of clients or when I have many different audiences? I don't think back then there was so much
00:29:28
Speaker
deep thought about the process, to be honest. Right, right. Yeah, for sure. The science of organizations has changed a lot over the last couple decades, for sure. So there is a chapter in the book on research. And as a researcher, I kind of went into this chapter with a little like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:29:45
Speaker
what are we what are we going to be trying to teach people and you know six pages whatever it is and i want to hear your thoughts about information designers and how they can be good research responsible researchers i mean you know as an example you sort of mentioned you know you could do a quantitative survey but you can also talk to people and you can know you know do the qualitative piece but you know as we all know qualitative methods is its own
00:30:11
Speaker
field of study. So how do you think about giving people, I guess these other skills, which I think we all kind of think that we all sort of need a broader base of skills. We all need to sort of be Renaissance people a little bit without maybe, maybe the way to frame this is without giving them a false sense that they are now experts in conducting research. And I don't know, Sheila, maybe you want us to start with that.
Research and Ethical Practices in Design
00:30:39
Speaker
I think this chapter was, I would say now retrospectively, a very interesting chapter to write because as you know, I consider myself an expert on the topic and perhaps Mike is less.
00:30:53
Speaker
less so so it was kind of a constant dialogue do you understand what I'm trying to say here and he says no you're going to scare everyone so it was but they need to know this yeah no they don't need to know this they only have like three days to do it right so it was a constant
00:31:12
Speaker
dialogue, which I think it goes the end result that he was okay. I would probably would like to add 20 more pages more things that everyone needs to know. I think our main goal was to show researchers something accessible that everyone should do. Show the value of conducting research quantitative, quantitative, qualitative for the effectiveness of an information design project.
00:31:40
Speaker
to an extent, removing that view of the information designer having all the answers. And they decided red is the color, this is the content, this is the style. And putting that decision-making step in the audience and helping the, in this case, the reader understand how much influence or how much having that feedback from the audience can make or break a project.
00:32:05
Speaker
We wanted to show diversity on the different methods they could use. There's not only one thing they can do. There's more than interviews. There's more than the survey. You don't have to use a survey sometimes, or you don't have to do interviews. So we wanted to show how you can adapt research to your needs. And that was kind of the goal with the chapter. To me, it's not complex and it's very fun, but I understand why
00:32:35
Speaker
people can find it scary, can find it like it's hard to do, but we did want also to convey the rigorous aspect of research, so if you're going to do it wrong, don't waste your time. Wrong in the sense like there are certain things that to me are non-negotiable, you have to be an ethical researcher, you need to make sure that
00:32:56
Speaker
you are treating your participants with respect, you're going to keep data confidential. So there are certain things that you have to do, even if you are in obvious research and you haven't done it before. Even if you do a survey, do it right. That's kind of what we were trying to convey. Yeah.
00:33:15
Speaker
I just wanted to add on to that. I mean, as someone who was also schooled in design without research, I mean, most designers, you never hear the word research unless it's like market research for advertising or marketing.
00:33:31
Speaker
I think the biggest misconception of information design is that principles and visual perception research will carry you all the way. Or that your design training and the rules, like whatever Vignelli did, like the legendary designer or Paul Rand, like anyone you learn in school, anyone who's your hero,
00:33:52
Speaker
is somehow like someone to follow and imitate because whatever they did must have worked and it's so famous right now it's so popular but that's not true that's that's the biggest myth for designers that because your hero did it or because it's revered or somebody put it on a pedestal doesn't make it right actually doesn't make it effective
00:34:10
Speaker
Even the language we use to describe information design is a bit muddy because good information design, you're not getting at what does that mean. What is good information design? Effective information design, meanwhile, has a bit more meat on it.
00:34:25
Speaker
Because then you can start to qualify and quantify what is effectiveness. Does it align with the user's physical capabilities? Is it culturally sensitive? Is it honest? Is it ethical? Is it actually solving a problem? Is it using sound information and credible sources?
00:34:45
Speaker
Now we're starting to get somewhere. Then we start, when we start talking about effectiveness, we can start measuring, we can start evaluating those dimensions of effectiveness. So this is a ton of work for designers. I mean, I just want to go into Figma and whip up something in an interface like we're Illustrator and kind of obsess over the curves of things. No.
00:35:04
Speaker
If you want effective information design, you have to do the work to evaluate effectiveness. You can't just copy your hero and say, well, it's effective. Or, I saw this in the South China Warning Post. I really like that graphic. I'm going to do that because it's in that newspaper and it's cool. No. Or it won an award. No. Actually, that's a side topic and I don't want to get canceled here. But I think awards also do a lot to
00:35:28
Speaker
distort what is good versus effective. Because something wins an award does not mean it's effective. It just means the judges agreed it should win an award. So I'll park it there, but I think, yeah, from a practitioner side, like our message was that if you start early on in your career thinking this way, thinking about plugging in research and not letting a client or the constraints
00:35:51
Speaker
prevent you from doing research, then I think you can start building an awareness of effectiveness and start making that a habit as opposed to an afterthought.
00:36:00
Speaker
And also, just to add to that, I think, thinking that research, you don't have to do it at the end, because sometimes the designers do everything, they have the final artifact, let's go and test it. Research is, since you have your brief, or you are creating your brief, let's start with research then, and then on every step in the process. That would save you time and money towards the end, kind of also conveying that message.
00:36:26
Speaker
Well, I think it's also similar for researchers in general that, and this has been a model that's been discussed for a long time, that you don't just do the data analysis and then you write and then you make the graphs and then you're like, it's all iterative, right? I mean, obviously qualitative research is a little bit different, but in the quantitative world, you don't just do one step at a time because you don't end up being able to make a thorough argument.
00:36:54
Speaker
On the awards thing, I've definitely talked about that in the past. It's funny, Michael, your complaint about it. My complaint about awards has actually been on the other end of things that my, and it is what it is, right? Everybody likes awards. It's fine. It's, you know, judging data visualizations like judging movies, right? A lot of it is subjective, but my complaint has always been that data visualization sits on a bedrock of data.
00:37:20
Speaker
And having done these contests and been a judge, I've never sat down and explored the raw data to make sure the person, the designer, has treated that correctly and done the right analysis. I don't know if they've dropped some observations because they weren't conducive to the design that they had in
Design Awards and Data Integrity
00:37:37
Speaker
mind. So I think there's a lot of issues with awards. That's a whole other episode. I'm sure I could get about 500 people on this show to just argue that.
00:37:47
Speaker
So I wanted to sort of wrap us up. You both have mentioned over the course of this discussion, ethical research, different cultures, different, Sheila, you started like living in different places, started this with living in different places around the world and being culturally responsible. And that is not the only thread, but it's certainly one of the threads that I saw through the whole book. And it has a specific chapter, but it doesn't just appear in that one chapter.
00:38:15
Speaker
And again, I don't really have a specific question. I guess it's, you know, what have your experiences been designing for creating projects in different cultures? Maybe Sheila a little bit more on teaching students in different places in different cultures. I mean, for me, the one I find really interesting and I'll be honest, I don't know enough about is just the
00:38:39
Speaker
difference in information design in more of the Eastern cultures where the kanji run vertically versus in Western cultures where it's more left to right. But I'm just curious about your experience working in different cultures and maybe some of the big things that you've run into right or wrong that you've seen. So I don't know, Michael, if you want to start.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, actually I kind of wish I had more cultural projects. I mean, that I think would have been a bit more, I could provide more on that front. I think my angle, I think my concern has always been in my practice and in just writing the book is that there's no representation. You just don't see the work.
00:39:27
Speaker
There's a lot of discussion about how to be culturally sensitive and even more so in the past few years. It's like you have to mind your language. You know, Colin, of course, you know, your work with the do no harm.
00:39:38
Speaker
There's a lot more interest in doing that, but I think fundamentally, we make a lot of assumptions, and I know I've made a lot of assumptions in my own work in the past, because the client has been driving the train. It's like, this is something I want, so you have to do this by my criteria, but it's hard because
00:39:58
Speaker
You kind of hope for this average we had we kind of dream of this average audience this this kind of middle band of people that Okay, everyone will kind of fit in that like no. No, it actually doesn't happen. I mean One thing I can think of is like with icons. I keep coming back to that is like I've worked on icon projects where The assumption is that if you get a good designer, they'll make something universal they know enough
00:40:22
Speaker
quote unquote, they know enough about this to make something understandable to everyone.
00:40:28
Speaker
And of course we know that's not true. There's always room for misinterpretation. The only reason why we point to things that are universal, like quote unquote universal, like airport signs or transit, you know, anything, any public information design, it's only that way because of convention, because it was standardized and it was used and reused. And the meaning was reinforced over time, like now decades.
00:40:53
Speaker
In fact, so there's a lot of equity built into symbols over time. Nothing is universal. It's all learned. So for someone to tell me like, okay, we're doing a whole new line of products or we need interface icons and we need to make them understandable to as many people as possible, like, well, it has to be small, which means you have to abstract the shapes. You can add as much detail. So now we have a problem. Like you can't just put all of that work on the icons.
00:41:20
Speaker
you need to really kind of dig into the research and understand, well, what are the concepts? How do you represent those concepts? What do they look like in different cultures, the audience that you're looking at? So I know that I've failed miserably in past icon projects. And I just don't show this in my portfolio. But I think that's been my lesson is like, when you think about things that are supposed to be universal, you really can't do that. You have to supplement with text. You have to provide other cues.
00:41:47
Speaker
contextual cues to help people understand. And it's all a case-by-case scenario. Like you have to, on a case-by-case basis, you have to look at who's looking at it, where are they looking at it, how big or small is the thing, what are the other production factors that influence the thing. So that's sort of my takeaway is like,
00:42:05
Speaker
It's not as, nothing is universal, but you really need to kind of do a 360 view around the entire project and think as deeply as you can about the audience and their context, and then the messages, then the variability in how those messages can be represented, and then just find that interface where, okay, I have something, let me test it, let me evaluate it, but then also provide a backup so the icon isn't doing all the work, or whatever that visual representation is.
Cultural Sensitivity in Information Design
00:42:33
Speaker
Sheila, so again, you've had sort of both worlds here, the design side and the private sector sort of side and then the and the instruction side. So I'll leave it up to you where you want to focus on this on this piece of thinking about culture.
00:42:49
Speaker
I think having left my hometown like so early, to be honest, when I left, I was like 20 and I was so naive. I thought every country functioned in the same way. From having, I don't know, drinking coffee in the same way, I was naive. So I think my first realization when I got to Europe was starting to realize that
00:43:13
Speaker
daily things were different, even if you spoke the same language, because I know from Argentina to Spain, we were meant to speak both Spanish. I promise you, I couldn't understand what they were saying to me for a week. So I think that was my first realization that, okay, there are some differences here. And then, to be honest, I got into research pretty fast, so I think
00:43:39
Speaker
And because I'm a qualitative researcher, I'm a better listener than a speaker. So by doing this work, I start to realize that even within the same country, there are many different sub communities with their own nuances and their own specifics.
00:43:56
Speaker
And that's something like I do teach my students that I don't believe in universal design. I think it's really rare that you can design something that applies to everything and it's going to be understood by everyone. If you really did the work and you do your proper research and your proper homework, you're going to realize that you need to tweak things depending on who is going to be looking at that.
00:44:20
Speaker
depending on the context of use, where the thing is going to be used, what time, there are many things that need to be considered. But I don't know, I also find it like super interesting. I think it's an interesting challenge where you have a new project.
00:44:36
Speaker
Who is your audience? How can you design something that could be adaptable to the different set of needs that you identify? That's why to me it's very hard to conceive the practice without research. I'm very boring in that sense because I put it everywhere. To me talking with people is essential because to me it's a very humbling experience. It makes me realize how little I knew about the project.
00:45:01
Speaker
from, I don't know, the significance of the color, shape, the content themselves, the things that they understand versus the things they don't. I don't know, there are many different specific things. So I think it's hard to design for another culture, for another country, and even within different industries in the same country. It's really hard because the language is different, terminology is different. I don't know, that's also, I think, it's an old school thing.
00:45:27
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess it obviously depends on perspective, but I just find like it is a challenge, but it's a fun challenge and it's a good challenge to like diversity is good, right?
Diversity Challenges and Opportunities
00:45:39
Speaker
Like from just a challenge perspective, I think it's good to sort of break out and try to understand these different perspectives.
00:45:45
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the lack of research to an extent is removing that diversity because it's the assumption that everything is the same. And I think, no, let's try to understand the specific things of this diversity and try to design for the specific needs of the different groups of the different
00:46:06
Speaker
I don't know, needs. Yeah, for sure. Um, so thank you both so much. So the book is available wherever folks get their books, you know, your local bookseller, Amazon, I'm sure it's at the Bloomsbury site. Um, now that social media is in a very strange place, particularly in the date of his world, where can folks find you? Mike, where can folks find you to connect?
00:46:31
Speaker
Good question. Because, because I'm not as active on Twitter, I'm only reappearing to promote the book honestly. I don't really
00:46:44
Speaker
point people there. And I am on LinkedIn, but I'm very cautious of connections and stuff like that. So I would say, I mean, I'm an old fashioned email person. So if I get an email, Michael at senseinfodesign.com. I mean, the company website is now being redone, but we will have that active. But for now, like if you find me on LinkedIn, you can send me a message or,
00:47:12
Speaker
You know, if you find my email, my personal blog is down, it's being redone. But yeah, I would say those are the best ways to get in touch. That's great. That's great. And Sheila, where can folks, where can folks get ahold of you and how can they become a student to take the class?
00:47:31
Speaker
So they can go to my personal blog, shilabontis.com, by email. I'm also a very old-fashioned person, so email is the best way. I do respond to all the emails. I can't help it. If you're right, you will get a response.
00:47:46
Speaker
All right. Good to know. Let you know. Sheila at SenseInfoDesign.com. They can reach out through LinkedIn. And that's as much social presence I have. We are going to be offering workshops through Sense in the future, so next year. But so far, Northeastern University, if you want to join the program for fall 2024,
00:48:14
Speaker
so they can go to NortheasternUniversity.com and find out more about the program for IDZB.
Conclusion and Call for Feedback
00:48:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, I'll look out for the workshops. Thank you both for coming on the show. The book is information on bound key concepts and skills for making sense in a changing world. I think everybody who's in the field to check it out, there's an amazing amount of content in here for everybody. So thank you both for coming on the show. It's been great chatting with you.
00:48:43
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks everyone for tuning into this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that. We're going to notice a few changes here and there in the show. I'm going to try a few new things in the next few months, particularly on the show notes, give you a bit more sort of introduction to the show, some bullet points that'll help you summarize the main points of the show. So if that's useful, please do let me know. If you'd like to hear from other guests, please do let me know. And if you would like to help the show,
00:49:13
Speaker
You can do so by rating or reviewing it on your favorite podcast provider. Of course, financial support is always appreciated to help.
00:49:21
Speaker
support the transcription needs, the design needs for the images, the YouTube part of the show, all that requires time and effort. So if you'd like to financially support the show, I would of course very much appreciate it. You can do that on a regular basis through Patreon or as a one-time payment through PayPal. But in any case, I hope you enjoyed the show. I hope you keep tuning in every other week as I produce episodes on data, data visualization and presentation skills. So until next time, this has been the Policy Viz Podcast.
00:49:50
Speaker
Thanks for listening.
00:50:14
Speaker
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