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Episode 1: Manage with Meaning
122 Plays1 year ago
In the debut episode of the 'Manage with Meaning' podcast, hosts Susie Taylor and Courtney Schultz discuss the challenges and rewards of people management. Courtney shares her journey from an unexpected managerial role at 16 to her passion for honest conversations about management. Susie highlights her background in positive psychology and resilience, stressing the importance of balancing high performance with well-being. They dive into the significance of managing with intention and meaning, acknowledging the complexities and unspoken difficulties that managers face. The episode sets the stage for future discussions aimed at addressing the realities of people management and fostering meaningful leadership.
Follow us on Instagram at @manage_with_meaning and learn more at managemeantexcellence.com
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:11
Speaker
Well, welcome to the Managed with Meaning podcast, episode one. I'm Susie Taylor. Yay. I'm Courtney Scholz, episode one. Here we go.
Excitement and Anxiety of Launching a Podcast
00:00:24
Speaker
How are you feeling? Good, anxious, overwhelmed. I like have so much to say, but sometimes get scared to say it. Yeah. How are you feeling?
00:00:40
Speaker
I feel like excited and anxious, which are two halves of the same coin for me usually. So yeah, the full coin. Those are usually good signs, right? You're doing something. Yeah, putting yourself out there. Awesome.
Courtney's Management Journey
00:01:00
Speaker
Management Community Podcast. We are starting this, according to kind of as an outbreak of work that you've been doing for a few years with Management Excellence. So I thought we'd get started by just having you walk through Management Excellence, your journey, how you got there and how we got here today. In 2020, it was actually when I first decided that I wanted to do something with people management. I have such a passion for it because
00:01:29
Speaker
That's been the majority of my career since I was 16 working at Adelie when the manager walked out and my boss was like, you're pretty responsible. Guess who's the manager now? It's you. That was essentially the whole transition plan. So 16 leading people who were.
00:01:52
Speaker
40, 50 years old and not super thrilled about it. So trial by fire right away. How do you connect with people individually that you're responsible for? And that lesson came hot and fast. And then that continued when I went to work for Disney as an intern and I was learning all about experience and then
00:02:12
Speaker
Went to work for ProSci and quickly found myself in a people manager spot too. And I was just so fascinated with the entire structure of how people leaders can impact the wellbeing and the outcome of the individuals, but the business too. And then lots of ups and down, lefts and rights. And then times I'm like, that's not healthy or, Oh, that was really impactful. Um, that really had me curious about, can we do this better? Cause there was so much shit I wasn't prepared for.
00:02:40
Speaker
And that was the underlying desire to talk about the shit that nobody talks about. Started with just sharing Instagram posts of this is something I've experienced. Have you experienced it too? And starting to see attractions and questions related to that type of content and then getting in different job roles and seeing some really, really bad management and some really good management and still realizing that nobody ever has the really hard conversations that you're going to deal with.
00:03:08
Speaker
You're not just going to manage, you're not just going to delegate, you're just not going to help people work through their workload or remove project barriers or have an interview.
Using Instagram for Management Discussions
00:03:18
Speaker
You're actually going to have to tell somebody that they're not performing well and they're being let go or you're going to have to be the receiving end after somebody has lost a loved one or is going through the battle with infertility or a divorce or
00:03:33
Speaker
they're having their first baby and they don't know how that impacts them at work. You're going to deal with them when they're pissed off or they're really happy and they're excited or you just blatantly don't like them and they blatantly don't like you. And all the resources don't exist. So it's just been this slow build and like a four year research project on where are all of the questions coming from and what are people struggling with? And it's really culminated into a really
00:03:58
Speaker
cool spot that I'm excited you're jumping in with me on to kind of continue to build and get it out there in front of people. So that's kind of the background. Awesome. And that kind of brought us to this point today because we've had so many conversations lately right about this shit nobody talks about. Yeah. And your background has been such a missing link in so much of what I've talked about. And so
00:04:22
Speaker
Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to this point here with me today. Real fast, before we move forward, what's the Instagram handle where you've been posting for the last four years? Oh, it's Ash. Manage underscore with underscore meaning on Instagram. You can find a whole bunch of free resources right now and some support resources there too.
Susie's Early Work Experiences
00:04:44
Speaker
But the conversations that have been happening on there, I think have been pretty
00:04:48
Speaker
fun and provocative too, but also really, yeah, I was just going to say also really kind of provocative. And I always know if I rub somebody the wrong way or I get some high level responses about something, I'm like, okay, there's something here and we got to dig into it and we got to talk about it a little bit more.
00:05:06
Speaker
Um, because I think that's just such a missing pieces. If it's uncomfortable, we assume it's wrong. It's incorrect or something somebody said is right. But I think it's usually we haven't explored it or there's some emotions we don't want to talk about underneath it. So that's kind of starting to come out on the Instagram page. Yeah. What a great way you interpret. Like when you get that, you're like, ding, ding, ding. We've, we've got something. We have a winner. Let's dive into that. How does this make you feel?
Passion for Management and Positive Psychology
00:05:33
Speaker
Let's talk about it.
00:05:33
Speaker
You know, I either didn't know or I forgot about your deli experience. It's so funny. I got my first real job that I had to pay taxes on when I was 14, working in a movie theater. So, you know, scooping popcorn, not far from a deli. And I started, got my first supervisor job when I was like 14 and a half, which seems insanely young to have any kind of responsibility for other human beings. But, you know, again, we were all scooping popcorn.
00:06:02
Speaker
But that was really when I started learning stuff I still use today, managing teams in the corporate world. And a lot of it was around
00:06:12
Speaker
how I connected with people as people and the difference that made in their performance, whatever that meant in whatever context. And I've been in management roles off and on my whole career since then. So I've been managing people well over half my lifetime at this point. And I learned a lot the hard way. There are times when I feel like it's brought out the best in me and there's a lot of times where I feel like it's brought out the worst in me.
00:06:39
Speaker
And I've had to really learn how to not let my shit come out all over my teams. Right. But I love it. And it's the most gratifying parts of my career have been when I've been managing people.
Impact of Honest Conversations in Corporate Settings
00:06:52
Speaker
So, uh, Courtney and I worked together at the same company for almost a decade. So we started working together in 2011. So we've been, you know, professional besties for a long time, you know, part of inner circles that make the work worth it is how I think about you. Absolutely. Agreed.
00:07:09
Speaker
You know, kind of growing up through that, coming together and in our management careers, it's so funny, I was thinking about this today. I had a few people who worked on your teams and then would come work on my team. And I was like, shit, yeah, you know, like, dang it, that was for Courtney. I really have to up my game because you're such a good manager. And I knew they had such a good experience. Gosh, okay, I really gotta bring my game.
00:07:37
Speaker
But yeah, so in terms of my interests, I have a master's in applied positive psychology and I started pursuing positive psychology as an area of interest in 2017 about there.
00:07:52
Speaker
So positive psychology is the psychology of all the good stuff in life, like joy and positive relationships. And my interest in that really came out of an interest in high performance. I've always been kind of obsessed with high performers, whether that's executives or athletes or scientists. I spent a lot of the first part of my career being like, I'm going to optimize my performance.
00:08:15
Speaker
And by any means, there's a lot of good stuff out there about how to do that. I also was miserable and burned out and just crushed under the weight of trying to do that for too long. And so my question became, is there a way to perform at a high level and have high well-being? Are they mutually exclusive? They can't be.
00:08:39
Speaker
I don't think. Right. And especially how do you do that in the workplace? Because I was looking around and I'm seeing all my peers who were excelling in their careers exhausted.
Managerial Influence on Employee Well-being
00:08:50
Speaker
And so... Completely burned out. Totally burned out. I was like, this can't be the only way. I found positive psychology. I wrote my master's on resilience and organizational change. Done a lot of change work. And I still don't know. I don't think there is an answer to the question of can you perform at a high level and have high well-being.
00:09:11
Speaker
I think a lot of it depends on the context and the conditions that we create for people in the workplace. And I think so much of it depends on management because you can teach people all of these techniques around wellbeing. But if they are overloaded, they don't have clear priorities. They get no air cover from their manager.
00:09:33
Speaker
Those techniques don't matter or they can only put a little dent, you know? And so over the last few years, as I've been really looking at this and studying it and trying to apply it in the corporate context, I've just come to conclude that the best thing we can do for people's wellbeing is really help managers be better managers.
00:09:55
Speaker
And you cannot thrive if you're trying to survive. Yeah, exactly. And managers are a big leverage point for that. So it's important. And then when you started putting out your content a few years ago, it resonated with me so much. I think something that I've been struggling with is I don't feel like we're very honest.
00:10:13
Speaker
in the corporate setting. I think we mean a lot to each other but we're not having hard dialogue and I've perpetuated that the majority of my career because I shy away from hard conversations and I have for a long time and I have to work really hard on it but what I really appreciate is that you've started saying the hard thing and naming the hard things and just talking about it and part of why we wanted to put this out there is so that we can just talk about it more
00:10:41
Speaker
make it more normal to talk about, give people a space to talk about it, give us a space to talk about it, right? You and I process a lot of this together. And so being able to do that here. There is so much that we don't talk about. I think a misconception that
00:10:59
Speaker
I can sometimes put off is that I'm trying to have this light and fluffy and make everybody happy and let's all work together and kumbaya. And that is not it. It is high performance as well for me. I am obsessed with it. I am so curious about it. And I think you have shared that phrase with me, a curse of competence, and that ties into high performers and high achievement. And I think.
00:11:23
Speaker
Yes, I want people to be happy and yes, I want people to be healthy at work, but I also want to talk about the systems in place that are hindering people's ability to do that as well. A place where we can make so much traction to change individuals' lives and the business world for the better is that people manage our layer.
00:11:42
Speaker
And we're just not doing a good job today.
Intentionality and Responsibility in Management
00:11:45
Speaker
There are companies that are doing really well or individual managers who are succeeding, but it's not usually because there's a lot of training or support for the realities that people managers face every day. Yeah. Yeah. That's such an important reality to call out of. We're not here to feel good. We're here to do work, whatever.
00:12:07
Speaker
work you're doing, whether that's serving the mission of a not-for-profit organization or a for-profit business, whatever it is, we're here to do great work. And setting up the conditions where people can do great work improves their well-being. People thrive when they can perform at a high level, whatever that means for them and whatever that context is. And I think that's part of what you have to hold as a manager, too, is that you're holding
00:12:31
Speaker
the interest of the business and the interest of human beings at one time, that's very hard. And there are times when you have to prioritize one over the other. And that's, that's tough. And I don't think we talk about that very much either.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah. And what that does to the individual manager, that burnout component already, like you're already walking into an impossible job. And if you're under supported, under appreciated, underpaid, and nobody's having these conversations with you, you're going to crumble really fast. And your mental health is going to take a toll or you're going to start ruining the lives of the people around you because of the weight of what you're carrying. Yes. It starts spewing out of you like it did from me.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, I've been there too. There are times when even the best of people managers, you, me, all those out there who have done a great job, there are times when your own life is going to intermix into that. Now that ties into how you're going to show up.
00:13:28
Speaker
in your high performance and your people management are just in your ability to survive. Oh my gosh. Ah, this is gonna be so fun. So good. I can't wait. And I'm really hopeful that it creates space for more people to think and more people to keep talking about it. The more we demystify, the more we just say it, the more we name the hard things, the more
00:13:49
Speaker
normal it is to talk about. And I think one of those hard things is just that people managers kind of suck in today's business. And that is a hard thing that businesses aren't willing to call out. 10 out of 10 people I talk to have a horror story of somebody that they've reported to and they know what's happening isn't right. We also understand it's not necessarily the manager's fault either. And that's hard to say.
00:14:15
Speaker
to an employee who's struggling with a difficult manager. And it's like, how do we look at the big picture and the system and the dynamics and all of it? So why don't we talk about, um, just for today, the name, manage with meaning. So your Instagram handle and also what we decided to name the podcast. So what does it mean to you to manage with meaning?
Balancing Management Responsibilities
00:14:35
Speaker
Originally when I created the name of the company, so management excellence, you know, M E A N T.
00:14:41
Speaker
Understand how saying that verbally can be a little hard to see what I'm seeing in my head, but the biggest thing for me is majority of people who are promoted into a people manager role or who take it on do it because it is a means to hire financial gain. If you want to make more money, the path in the corporate world and in most jobs is to lead other people to take on the higher role, the title, more responsibility.
00:15:08
Speaker
And when you do that, that's not a bad thing, but if we're not doing it intentionally and aware of the reasons why we're taking on the role, then we're not doing it with any meaning. That's when some of those negative impacts can start to roll down because you're not taking the weight of what your role really means to the people who are going to report to you. Um, so that was one component. And the other was you really truly do impact the lives of the people.
00:15:35
Speaker
every single day that are reporting into you and 99% of people right have to work to live. That's just reality. The world is expensive and it really sucks to work every day for somebody who you are trying to survive. I don't want boss to be a four letter word and I think it is so often
00:15:57
Speaker
And people are genuinely scared of the people that they report to. You know, I'm a mom of three. There's so many times where I've been scared to have my kids be sick and call in and who am I letting down and what's going to happen? What is my boss's reaction going to be today? And I've had the flip side of it too, where I've lost a loved one and my boss has been amazing and gave me the time, the grace and the space to walk away and do what I need to do. And that's life changing.
00:16:26
Speaker
to be able to take the space and have the grace to intertwine your life with your work without fear because there is no way to separate it. You cannot do it. People are humans and that human experience comes with you to work every single day and you cannot separate it. It's an antiquated dynamic to say if you want more money, manage people.
00:16:49
Speaker
because that impacts the people often negatively. There's just not a path for those individual contributors who don't want the weight of that responsibility. That path doesn't exist. So we need to put more meaning into the selection criteria, the business, the corporate world.
Personal Growth and Resilience in Management
00:17:04
Speaker
But also, when we step into that position as a people manager, we really need to think about what it means to us, set our intentions, how do we want to show up? Who do we want to be? What type of culture do we want to create?
00:17:16
Speaker
and really try to embody that because every one of our people who reports to us, no matter the time period, are going to feel the weight of how you show up and the way you represent.
00:17:29
Speaker
yourself in that role. And so think of the meaning of what it is to you to be in this position and for the business to put people into that position. Yeah. Yeah. Take it seriously, right? The responsibility of it. You've talked a lot on your channel is about how management roles are often just an additional thing to do on top of an individual contributor role. I think that's so often the case and how
00:17:52
Speaker
It's the proportions need to be flipped, right? Like you might have some of your own tasks, but, and depending maybe on the size of your team, the type of work that you do, but being a manager, how do we put that as the center? If you're a manager, that's your number one job, not your number eight job. Yes. And it's the path to burnout, right? I don't know if you would say that's what contributed many times to your burnout, but it was often.
00:18:18
Speaker
What are the tasks I have to get done in this role that I have? And then, oh yeah, my nighttime job is to get all the things done for my people. It just, it's a never ending wait. Compounded by the fact that for a long time, I also like couldn't give people feedback if their work wasn't meeting expectations. So then I just also did their work for them too. So, you know, I mean, some of that was on me as well. I think back to that time in my career when I was doing that, what would have helped? What would have been a difference maker? And.
00:18:47
Speaker
The expectation was very high when I think about my management chain above me, right? There wasn't really safety for me to do anything but just meet the expectation no matter what.
00:18:59
Speaker
Um, and so I just did, but I didn't have the skills yet to meet the expectation via coaching and holding my team accountable for it. And I was scared. And so I just absorbed it all. And some of that, I just had to learn the hard way. That's just part of my personality. And I did have to go through that learning process, but I think managers of managers and managers of new managers also have some responsibility of
00:19:28
Speaker
How do you guide people through some of that, which gets kind of meta. But to your point, though, about taking it seriously, you know, if you're going to manage mean it, for me, there's a flip side to it that for me, managing is very meaningful. And I love that. I love it.
00:19:46
Speaker
I hate it sometimes, but overall I find it very meaningful because I'm a people person and being a manager is where I've been able to have the most meaningful connections with people in the workplace.
Well-being and Breaks in Management Roles
00:20:02
Speaker
And I've gotten to witness more growth and I've gotten to grow myself through that most. So how do you manage in a way that cultivates meaning and joy and job satisfaction? Because I think there's a lot to be had.
00:20:16
Speaker
had there, but not without acknowledging that it's also really hard work. I agree with you. I love it. And I think I have sometimes the ability to put my expectation on other people. So I expect my managers to love managing me because I love managing people. Who wouldn't love managing me? I always realize that is a challenge because you get caught up in the overwhelm and it is an ever ending.
00:20:45
Speaker
job. And if you don't necessarily find that inherent meaning from the servant leadership perspective or being able to grow and foster other people, which is just, I think my absolute favorite part of it. I had a mentor really early in my career from Disney actually tell me, if you have a high performer, somebody who's meeting or exceeding your expectations consistently
00:21:11
Speaker
and they're still on your team, the same role for the same pay two years later, you failed. They haven't failed, you failed. They should not still be on your team. And if they are, why are they at the same pay rate? And why are they in the same position? And why do they have the same title? Because that is your job to make sure that doesn't happen.
00:21:32
Speaker
hard to chop, right? But that's like an underlying foundation for me. But why I love talking to you is because of the resilience component, being able to sustain these challenges for an extended period of time. I mean, that's the definition basically of people manager.
00:21:50
Speaker
sustaining challenge forever. It's never going away. If you think there's an end, yeah, there is no end. Just what challenge am I walking into today? That's it. Yeah, it's part of this balance of something I'm sure we'll cover soon is that it's not about you. When you become a manager, it's not about you anymore. But also, you still matter. Something that you've taught me a lot about is boundaries and something we talk a lot about is how do you take care of yourself because you do have to put your oxygen mask on first and
00:22:20
Speaker
How do you sustain yourself for the long-term challenge of it? How do you manage your energy over time? And also sometimes how do you walk away? I've been in and out of management roles my whole career. There have been times when I'm like,
00:22:33
Speaker
I don't want to do this. And I've had the opportunity to go into an individual contributor role. Um, you can love managing people. You can get a ton of your meeting out of it. You can also decide to take breaks from it. We're playing the long game here. So how do you sustain yourself for that?
Setting Boundaries for Personal Well-being
00:22:50
Speaker
Because something we've both found is when we're healthy, we're good managers. It's much easier for us to take good care of our people and be the kinds of leaders that we want to be when we are
00:23:04
Speaker
taking care of ourselves as well. Um, but it's very easy when you come from, like you said, the servant leadership perspective to almost abandon yourself in the service of others. Just keeping that balance over time, I think is important. And you hit on such a reality for so many people managers. This is not about you, but at some point it needs to be. Otherwise you're going to get resentful. You're going to get angry. If you're not getting what you're giving from your own,
00:23:32
Speaker
management above you. It's really hard to sustain that. And I've been there before and that's where I've avoided more of the difficult conversations is the upward and the advocacy for myself. Those boundaries, that's why I became so integral because I've often found when I'm getting bitter, angry, or frustrated, or resentful and I can't show up the way I want to. It's usually because I let my cup empty so far on my own side that I can no longer give it out. And I think boundaries
00:24:02
Speaker
That was really life changing for me, which is such a silly thing to say now because I'm so ingrained in it. Nobody ever told me I could. I was like waiting for that permission.
00:24:18
Speaker
No. Yeah. And that's something that excites me for us to talk to, right? Is to tell other, and I don't mean just women, but I do have a passion to talk directly to women and say, Hey, you can have a boundary too. Uh, if you need one, you can set one. And here's how you, I even identify it or hear what it feels like in your body.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, you can do that. Which I've never had to really explain to my male counterparts and that's a wide comment. It's not gonna be true for everyone and that but I have found that I always was waiting for permission where others were just gonna ask forgiveness and that was a really big transition point for me in my energy managing people and stopping away when I couldn't I haven't either always managed there have been times
00:25:08
Speaker
I absolutely am not in the right mental space to lead other people. That's not always an option too, which is a whole other conversation we won't get into today. How do you keep going when it isn't an option and that's what your paycheck depends on. Yep, totally. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. So much. So much good stuff.