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Lessons from a Balfour Beatty Project Director
181 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Jason & Carlos are joined by Jon Chew, Project Director at Balfour Beatty.
The three discuss Jon's career from Graduate Site Manager to where is he now, and what he's learned along the way.
What's the best way for engineers to push for promotion? Are small projects or large schemes best to gain experience? What are the key differences is being a manager, or a leader?
Listen to find out!
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Transcript
Humorous Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
I think I remember about six years ago we sent branded marshmallows and they were awful. They looked bad, they tasted bad, everything about it was terrible but it looked really nice on the website so we bought a few and sent them out.
00:00:14
Speaker
It sounds like you just ate them all and needed an excuse to eat them all. Yeah. Terrible. We couldn't send them out. We had to keep them all.
Introducing John Chu and Career Overview
00:00:24
Speaker
You're listening to the Offsite Podcast with Jason and Carlos, where we talk all things construction and technology. Join us for discussions with industry leaders and insights into the latest trends in construction.
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome back to the pod. So today we're joined by Balfour Beatty director, John Chu. He's a well-known guy across the building division within Balfour Beatty. He's a keen advocate of technology. He's flown through the ranks over the past, well, over his career so far. The CV is a real perfect example of what career progression looks like within an organization.
00:01:01
Speaker
I've got to know him over the past year or so. I've been really looking forward to this. Welcome to the pod, John. Thank you. Nice to meet you.
Early Challenges and Learning as a Site Manager
00:01:09
Speaker
You started at Balfour BT as a graduate site manager. That's right. When I think of a typical site manager, it's a strong vocal
00:01:19
Speaker
kind of person commanding respect over lots of people on site. What was it actually like doing that as a graduate? Yeah, you're the guy who hardly held your face with a squeaky voice that no one wants to respect is normally what kind of happens when you're a graduate, when you just start. So yeah, it is tough. It is tough because you go into an industry with people that have got many years experience above you and you're trying to organise them and manage them.
00:01:43
Speaker
and try to get their respect and then to listen to what you're trying to say is always the hardest challenge of the first couple of years to get that respect and get people actually working with you collaboratively and not thinking that you're someone who hasn't got a clue and it's bad just to ignore you and crack on. Yeah for sure because yeah as you say like fresh faced coming onto site it's a bit like I don't I imagine it is a bit like becoming like an officer in the army and you go in as a 21 year old commanding troops right and you need to be that sort of
00:02:10
Speaker
or authoritarian sort of individuals. What was that like? Were those jobs, were they really difficult to actually do this sort of job and do it well at the beginning? Or were you sort of shadowing individuals to sort of bring you up through those initial years?
Taking on Responsibilities at Balfour Beatty
00:02:25
Speaker
I had quite a unique...
00:02:26
Speaker
quite a unique start. So I was working for Balfour Beatty, but we were a company called Mansell then. So there was different divisions when I first started Balfour Beatty where we were working on small works. So this was our special works, they called it, which is like jobs from one million to five million. It could be like a school extension, school refurb, you're in a hospital doing some refabs.
00:02:46
Speaker
or you're doing small add-ons to buildings quite often or ground works and such. So it was a really good kind of start to the career on getting stuck in really. Because all there would be on site would be me and a project manager or a senior site manager. And you're kind of phoning the deep end and you have no choice but to do everything. So you don't have a design manager, you don't have a planner.
00:03:08
Speaker
the engineer will come once a week if you're lucky and you've got to beg and plead that another job doesn't steal him off. So it was a kind of environment where you had no choice but to kind of get stuck in and get involved and deal with the subcontractors because they'll come to the office and if the other guy's not there, they're going to come and talk to you and they're going to ask you all the questions and ask you to sort it out. So I think as a way of understanding and actually kind of getting involved in all the different aspects of site management and construction management,
00:03:38
Speaker
It was a really interesting way to do that, which is not always the same maybe what I get involved now on jobs that are like multi, multi-millions with huge 30, 40 people on the team. And you have graduates now that are part of a section of works who maybe don't get as much exposure or it's not as easy to get exposure because you have to go and look for it rather than
00:03:59
Speaker
you just being no choice but being like dragged into it because you look around the room and it's just you and then they're all there wanting something off you. So that was what I think really helped to start my career on getting involved in everything because I had no choice but to step up.
Earning Respect Through Contribution
00:04:16
Speaker
John, nice to meet you, mate. I was really looking forward to talking to you. And one of the things that you said before really jumped out, which was around building respect. So when you started as a graduate, and I think if you think about so many people enter the construction industry and they've got this same problem, which is they don't have the same experience. They've got to build and earn respect of the people on the ground.
00:04:40
Speaker
I'm reflecting on my own experience. You spend a lot of time trying to find that right way to build respect. So I guess if you were to think about talking to your past self now, knowing now what you know now, or talking to another graduate, what would you say are the techniques that work the best for you in terms of cutting through and building respect with the people that were more experienced than you on the job?
00:05:04
Speaker
So I think it is at the start is proving your worth and that you're actually useful I think so because it's so easy to go in there and you you think you should get respect because you know especially when you work for a bigger a bigger a bigger tier one company or something people have sometimes assume because you work for a big company they should they should respect and listen which unfortunately isn't always the case and quite the opposite isn't it
00:05:25
Speaker
Quite obviously, yeah, because people get actually their back up, which is kind of righty-so to be honest, because you've got to respect the people you're dealing with that are often experts in their field. With a lot of the guys I find, and I think, yeah, if I was talking back to myself when I first started is realizing that these guys are often experts in their field, maybe not always experts in the coordination or interfacing.
00:05:45
Speaker
You'll have a trace, which is half the reason, or one of the main reasons to be honest, we are here as a main contractor, so we do that system integration. Be in the benefit to the people you're working with and the people that you're supposed to be managing and actually seeing a benefit of talking to you because you will solve the blockers or the issues, or you will coordinate with the other trays that they can't do because of where they're set. Responsibilities and parameters are, or they just don't have their own expertise in that session and therefore they need your help.
00:06:13
Speaker
they see that there's a worth to speak to you and get involved with you and then see that your actions are backed up by, well, your words are backed up by your actions, a better way to say it, then that will get in respect. Where I think when I first started, there was a lot of I thought was, well, they should do because I'm the muscle manager, because I'm the management, which in reality is not the case at all.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's super interesting because I think I had a similar learning experience where for me at the start to try and get respect was I'll just outwork everyone. So I'll do the 5.30 in the morning till 7.30 at night. I'll just be totally across everything I think I need to be across. And then as you go along, I found that I started resenting the people that didn't work as many hours. And then that would create a lot of friction with me and some of the other team members.
00:07:06
Speaker
And like it definitely feels like the way to be successful as you go up, you need to like exactly what you said, make people successful. So like see you as a way to solve their problems. And yeah, I see a lot of people, especially in that like junior role, like do what I did and be like, my path is to outwork people. But like that has a big limit. You only get so far with that.
Career Progression Without Job Hopping
00:07:31
Speaker
Jason, I think it helps being six foot six to try to tear over people with those early days. Like John said, I didn't have a hair on my face either. And I still don't. So John, I'm going to sound like a really weird little fan boy now. But if we look at your sort of career so far, it's not just impressive, but it's actually quite unique. So you've gone sort of grad site manager to project director.
00:07:59
Speaker
a pretty short period of time which is great but you've also stayed in one company which is actually quite unusual for main contractor staff they always jump and hop and that's the way that they jump up the tree. You've done that in one company built your career like network around you so like it isn't typical but how has that happened was that part of like your career strategy or is it like yeah how have you gone down that?
00:08:21
Speaker
So I think, yeah, I think there's two parts. Definitely I've been fortunate to have the right opportunities. And I think for me, it was never like I want to be a project director. I think it's always been that I want to leave my own projects and I always want to do something complex. And it's the little milestones of each step. Like I want to be a site manager now. I want to get into senior site management. I want to become a project manager and work my way up. And what is the next goal that I need to achieve that? And I think the,
00:08:48
Speaker
What you've said is kind of true right is to get the next role It's often easier to jump ship and get the next role because then you start in that role and people will take you on in that role and you may have not had to prove yourself per se as much as you would if you stayed with the company and I think that's that's the one thing I had to learn quite quite early if I wanted to stay with Belfast was
00:09:12
Speaker
you don't get given the role until you've proven you can do the role which can be quite frustrating right because you're always then doing more than maybe you're being paid to do and you're often then doing more responsibilities and working more potentially than other people around you which leads like Jason said to a bit resentment if you're not careful because why am I doing more when
00:09:33
Speaker
when they're being paid the same or even potentially more, right? Because often in the game when you go up in your career, the people that have been working longer, have more experience, do our own more and potentially better benefits, right? That's just the way of the world. So I think I learned that quite quickly that there's no, compare myself to the people I'm working with, in that regard, it's just gonna lead you to a resentment. So try to always try to avoid that. And it was very much.
00:10:00
Speaker
given that 110%. So it was it was trying to always, always take that next step. So even if I was a site manager role, I would try and do what I could and assist a project manager on taking some of that weight off them. And you know, do even take some of their meetings, taking some of their design responsibilities, planning, what have you is is try and be a game leading to a benefit that the PM or whoever that your line manager is, you are actually seen as a benefit and that you have
00:10:26
Speaker
the ability to actually take some of their work off them. Obviously, that can go twofold, right? Because you get the wrong line manager, they can obviously exploit that. So also, it's been mindful not to be exploited on what you're doing. But
00:10:38
Speaker
I've done quite a lot of distressed projects at Belfast BC, fortunate or not fortunate, which has allowed me to jump into positions and roles, which is probably above what I was on at the time. And it was then taking the opportunity, giving that 110%, and proving that I can achieve in that role.
00:10:58
Speaker
before actually people were given that role. And then it's also then the kind of, not balls, but it is balls to be honest, it is then the balls to actually speak up and make sure you're recognized for what you've done. Because again, it's so easy for, and not even intentionally I think from line of management, because they're busy with 110 other things, right? But it's to ensure that what you've done gets recognized, but also not in an arrogant way either, because that's also can completely put people off to and people think you're a bit of an upstart.
00:11:28
Speaker
I think, yeah, that in a very long-winded way is doing above your role and not expecting to be paid or recognised straight away for it until you've proven your worth.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, John, that's so true. Just sorry, Carlos, to jump in. But John, the amount of young engineers or project managers that I'll speak to who will say similar things like, I'm doing this job a level above me or two levels above me. I've been promised a promotion three times or whatever, and I haven't got it. And everyone that they're talking to, the common wisdom appears to be
00:12:06
Speaker
The only way to get up is to sort of jump companies. Then they go and look elsewhere and then eventually that company offers them and they're in that kind of, you never feel great about that experience no matter what the outcome is. Like you've looked elsewhere, you've had to let someone down. Double clicking on like what you were saying, does it require a couple of points along the way where you're like, you know, you're doing that level up. Do you have to.
00:12:30
Speaker
push a bit like if you were talking to like a sort of younger engineer or younger project manager or site manager, you have to push a bit to get there.
Proving Capability Before Promotion
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, you do. You do need to push, but you need to push with clear evidence that you have done it. Because I think it's so easy to think you're doing it, but when you actually dissect what you've done, have you actually achieved it yet? And that's because doing a role for like a month doesn't mean you're now able to do it full time and actually get the end goal. And I think
00:13:01
Speaker
Now, even to get to the PD role I'm doing now, it was two years, I was kind of doing that role arguably before I got it, because it has to get to the point where the project ended and actually, yeah, okay, we did achieve what we set out to achieve, because until then, although I'm doing the job, have I actually achieved that job or will I actually get the end goal that the business needs? So I think it's looking at it as not just are you doing the role that's two grades or whatever above,
00:13:28
Speaker
are you actually achieving the goal? Are you doing it well you know? Yeah and it's so easy because I've spoken to so many guys about that you know they will say is that what you just said Jason I'm doing more I think I should be promoted you know and when you look and you go into and go like what have you
00:13:45
Speaker
What have you achieved to prove you've done it? Not that you're just doing the role and you're doing the day-to-day. That is important. It's got to be recognised that you're doing the day-to-day. But every job well, especially when you're in projects where there is always milestones to achieve and you can achieve their milestones either well or poorly.
00:14:05
Speaker
are you achieving the milestones well? And sometimes you've got to achieve it better than the peers that are in that role as well, because if you can do it even better than the PMs or whatever, say you're a site manager, go up to a PM role, an engineer, go into a PM role, if you're doing it better than the people around you, or at least on par, then that really shows that you are achieving. And that's often what I've
00:14:25
Speaker
had to use as a way to do the push-in, rather than just saying, I've been doing it three months, I do the day-to-day, I'm ready, rather than what I've actually achieved, look what they've achieved, I'm either on the same way, actually I'm doing better, that often is a better way to make people, because everyone's always got to get signed off by someone, right? So there needs to be clear evidence that that sign-off, you know, that is proof from what you can do.
00:14:52
Speaker
Nail on head, mate. I totally agree, Carl. She had something to say. Yeah, I was thinking, it's like the old, that saying that people say is like dress for the job you want, not the job you have. It's like, just do the job that you want and not the job that you have. It makes a lot of sense. And did you find there was a lot of competition? Like is, is everyone doing a similar strategy? Like within Balfour, for example, do you find that you're, you're trying to do it at the same time that others are? Or did you find you were quite unique in that sense?
00:15:20
Speaker
I think at the start, there's quite a few, but recent years, I think it's quite unique. There isn't actually that many people about a similar age that I've met in recent years, for a majority of different reasons, I guess. But I think, yeah, in the early years, definitely, when I was going for that site manager, senior site manager, kind of movement into project management, there was a lot of competition in that regard, which actually I think is really healthy because it does push everyone to work more.
00:15:47
Speaker
more cleverly just rather than just hard because you want to stand out and you want to prove your worth so you then competing on doing that in different more intuitive ways to do it but when I've come into the PM I think I did start project management quite early I was like 28 when I kind of got into the project management so everything I was working with were always older so it was kind of a whole different dynamic where everyone I was kind of appears with were 10 years plus or
00:16:16
Speaker
I was also having people working for me that were old enough to be my dad and it's that whole kind of challenge that I then got into about how do you manage people that, yeah, they're old enough to be your dad or you're dealing with peers because you're on a bigger project with other project managers and you are like 10 years junior and you're there trying to have the same opinion and same respect as they've got. That was a whole new world that was actually quite challenging, to be honest.
00:16:43
Speaker
So are you, are you learning that by doing it? Are you learning that by reading? Are you, do you have mentors that like help guide you to the like different strategies? Cause yeah, as you go through the different roles, each one has like a different skill set that you have to, to sort of nail and not just, yeah, you have to do well at to be good at the job. And sometimes it's the opposite of what you would have done three jobs before.
00:17:07
Speaker
Are you avidly trying to teach yourself? Are you just observing what works and doesn't work for other people? Or is there mentors? What's your strategy?
Leadership vs. Management: Soft Skills Importance
00:17:18
Speaker
I did have a mentor when I was moving again from the site manager to the project manager. He unfortunately left the business. He was keeping contact, but he's not a regular mentor that he once was.
00:17:28
Speaker
a lot. A lot of it has been like I have read a few books, a few management books, and they help a bit, right? They give you an idea to potentially implement for yourself. But I think the key thing is you've got to learn your own way. And actually, I remember a project manager taught me that quite early in my career is that
00:17:46
Speaker
there isn't a right way that I can just say, look, do it this way and it'll work. You've got to learn the way that suits you and your own behaviours, your own attitude, your own way of thinking. You've got to have your own then kind of leadership and management. And I think much of that is actually also to do with leadership and not just management. I didn't think there was a distinction, to be honest, at the start of my career. And then when I got five into my career, there's a massive distinction between leadership and management.
00:18:12
Speaker
and the shadow you cast and what your actions do, actually how people perceive it and taking that into account. Because I think that's been again a bigger thing is being technically strong and getting into the role of a more senior management. You can get there because you're technically advanced and you're an expert in your field, but maybe not so good at the management leadership you've got there via that.
00:18:39
Speaker
That I think was quite telling the people I was meeting essentially that you could tell the difference from someone who got there just from their technical expertise, which is nothing wrong with that in any shape or form, but definitely makes it harder to move forward unless you start learning them soft skills and start learning the importance of leading the right way and how you operate and how that affects the people beneath you and how they operate. And I think
00:19:02
Speaker
That is something that I had to learn myself and learn the best way I could get the most out of people. And I found that because of the kind of age that I was going into their roles is that I needed to leave from the front.
00:19:15
Speaker
kind of like prove my worth to them. Again, it's getting going back to the thing I kind of started to be honest, I don't think that's changed to be honest. The more I've gone up the ladder is that people have got to be willing to invest in you and you to invest in them. So I've often always thought that I will get my hands dirty, I will get involved in the day to day if I need to, to show that I can do it. One, but two is that I'm not scared to.
00:19:37
Speaker
And that has helped gain respect for some of the guys, especially when they're more experienced of years or time served. Okay, the guy can talk the talk, he can actually walk the walk as well. I think that has been the biggest learning for me, is if you can do that and you can get there buy-in and trust, then you're gonna have a smashing team. Yeah, if I can put that in a bottle and tell myself when I was 21 years old, that would be perfect, you know?
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Do you think, so you mentioned you hit project manager quite early and like a mentor was a good part of helping you transition from site manager to project manager. You're then like working with people that are 10 years older than you. Do you think it's like a really, is it a big boost that like, like people always say you're the average of the people around you. Do you think that's what accelerated you then? And then you're always working with older. So you always sort of caption them quicker than if you weren't working directly with them.
00:20:32
Speaker
I think so, I think yeah definitely there is a bit of that Carlos and I think but what I think is what can you, I always thought a little bit as well as what you can add and I think like even the time we've worked with you for yourself Carlos is that you know the project management in construction and in just like the industry with it being rail or roads or highways whatever your kind of discipline is, is technology is massively changing things and
00:20:59
Speaker
keeping on top of how that is integrated into how we do our role day in day out is becoming quite a major thing I think and
00:21:10
Speaker
It is easier, I would say, on the whole, for the younger generation, because we've just been involved in technology a lot more than others have over the last years, because of the obvious reasons. It just wasn't there when they were younger. And it's looking, not only looking to be on the same par as themselves, just how they're doing it, but actually how I can do it.
00:21:33
Speaker
And that is why I'm quite strong. I tell a lot of the guys about that too, is don't try and emulate what they're doing because they've been brought up in a different kind of time, a different kind of culture. The culture has changed, better or worse. I'm sure I speak to myself, my older construction manager saying that it's definitely got worse, but I will say it's a bit better.
00:21:54
Speaker
I think it's important to take of what either that person or myself has learned and what I think is important and actually what I can bring because of what I have gone through that is different to what they're doing. And that actually I believe has helped quite a lot because there is initiatives that I've been working with a PD quite closely on the project I'm on at the moment.
00:22:14
Speaker
And we're learning quite a lot of each other because he's just type 50. He's got a lot of experience that I just haven't had. But then also there's a lot of initiatives, a lot of ways that I operate in my project management style involving a lot of different technology, involving a lot of younger people that have this disability to
00:22:32
Speaker
to transfer from the different data actually makes our day-to-day job easier he's actually learning from that as well at the same time and then respecting that because he's like you know what I need to shape up a little bit on that because I could easily get left behind if I'm not careful.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like you are, you're way more equipped, like in a lot of ways than like your typical, yeah, as you say, 50 year old PD who's gone through the rags with. That's a positive, not a negative. And don't be wrong. It's not, it's not going to replace your technical ability. You still need to, and I think that is it. I've worked really hard to learn how to build. Like I spent a lot of time out of hours learning about the technical build and then also applying it in
00:23:15
Speaker
at work as well because unless you know what you're talking about you can be as digitally minded as you want if you can't if you can't actually build something properly then you know people can spell them all the way cover exactly they're lifting your own posture right so yeah you've got to know what you're talking about and but tying them two together
00:23:33
Speaker
in the kind of more senior management role, that is a new thing in the industry. That isn't something that, you know, if you go back 15, 20 years ago, wherever, that wasn't about them. Just the technology wasn't advanced and we just weren't doing the things we are doing now that if you go back a few years ago, even just a few years, it just wasn't there yet. So I think there's a lot to play for moving into the near future that can put you above other people if you can register but not forget the basics as well.
00:24:01
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think if I was to take you back then to something you kind of touched on right at the start and something that reflects the decision I had to make when I was
Choosing Difficult Projects for Growth
00:24:12
Speaker
a young engineer. Let's imagine we're talking to a young project manager, site manager engineer, and they've got a couple of options of like the next job or a very early job to go to. And there's the choice of like,
00:24:25
Speaker
a job that they know is going well versus the sort of distressed problem. People are saying it's hard graft here. What's the tip to which one to pick? So for me personally, I've always worked with a hard graft because the most I've ever learned is off the jobs that are in an absolute abysmal state. And arguably I've built my career based on that, to be honest, because you just
00:24:51
Speaker
When things go wrong is when you learn it. I know everyone says that, but it's true. It's true. When things aren't right and you have to then unpick it and then have to delve so much more into the detail to solve the issue, you therefore learn it. And if a job's going really well and you've got really good subcontractors or people working for you that are just owning their areas or responsibilities so well, then actually sometimes you may not learn.
00:25:15
Speaker
So I think if you get that opportunity, like you said, do go for the distress one, I'd recommend. But be mindful that, are you one even ready for it, you have the capacity for it? Because I think that's the other point to have is the last thing also is that if you haven't got the capacity or you don't feel ready for it, then take the other option because it can go the other way and you could get easily burnt out, stressed out and actually then
00:25:44
Speaker
kind of slowed down your career because I have dealt with, you know, to have a work with people where they thought they were ready. They've taken on the responsibility and haven't been able to cope. And I've met some really good guys where they just took the responsibility to Ali or they thought they could go and do that to a distressed job because they saw that as a quick way to rise up a ladder.
00:26:03
Speaker
they then got completely overwhelmed, got completely beaten down, burnt out, and then they've kind of stopped, and they've kind of been off by the whole thing, which is so sad to see when someone's lost their kind of buzz, because it is a hard job, and you've got to love what you do to do construction, because every day is difficult, every day is different, and if you lose your kind of fire and buzz to do that, then you're developing the creators going to enter.
00:26:31
Speaker
But yeah, I have like, I have like a love and I have a similar thought. I have a love for like those typical, the really hard and possibly distressed jobs. Cause there's like that saying of like, you can, you know, people learn from their mistakes, but if you go to a difficult or distressed jobs, you're getting that like free kick. You're actually learning from other people's mistakes. You don't actually have to make them yourself. You can see, you know, like Bob did this three months ago and now the jobs like F'd, you know? So you get to learn from other people's mistakes.
00:26:58
Speaker
But yeah, you have to know what you're signing up for. Yeah, you don't want to go to the job and then turn it into the problems. You don't want to be bombed. You don't want to be bombed. My old boss always said go to small jobs and go to ones that aren't doing well because the small job means you actually see like the full cycle of everything. Like I grew up on like 500 million pound jobs where you see such like a tiny little part of it.
00:27:28
Speaker
to go to small ones, to go to tough ones because you actually learn sort of real world stuff so that makes no sense. I certainly agree with that, I really do because it is hard though because sometimes you've got no choice but to work on the bigger projects and I think the advice I've given to some of the graduates that I've been working with closely in recent years is
00:27:49
Speaker
See if you can move around because don't just go, it's like you said, a five minute job, you could be getting involved in the dry lining package, right? And maybe one other and you just spent five years, they're going to dry line it. I always say to them, dude, you're going to have to speak out because you just get pigeonholed and speak out and get asked to be moved about every six months, a year or what have you. So you do get to experience different parts of that one big project.
00:28:14
Speaker
Otherwise, like you said, you just see such a small section. But if you do a small job, you have the opportunity to see everything.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yeah. You said, um, John, you said something before about like the difference between leadership and management. And like, like you were early on, I didn't think that there was a lot of difference between them. But, um, in this job, one of the things that we get to do is talk to lots and lots of projects every day. And when you talk to lots and lots of projects every day, you definitely see the difference on the project between a project that has great like leadership running it.
00:28:44
Speaker
versus ones that don't. And the people that you interact with all have their work into a common goal. Even if the job's high pressure, they might be stressed. They know what their goal is and their purpose, and they're all helping each other towards it.
00:29:03
Speaker
Whereas the other jobs are, you know, people like second guessing the decision of management. There's that kind of, uh, that vibe and you can, you can smell it immediately when you're interacting with the project. So I totally agree. And like you and I haven't worked together, but from what Carlos has said, you can definitely, you've definitely got that like leadership base nailed down. So yeah, that's cool. Appreciate it.
00:29:27
Speaker
John, we're probably gonna have to wrap up then. But no, thank you very much for coming on today. That was really enjoyed that conversation. So thank you. Yeah, thank you guys. We appreciate being on. Thank you very much. Thank you.