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Episode 72: Creating an Optimal Website
161 Plays5 years ago
This episode is a bit different. This is actually the recording of an interview that I did for Devin Robinson's podcast, The Anchored Podcast. You might remember Devin from episode 70 where he shared about his Instagram strategy that has resulted in a bunch of booked work for him. If you haven't checked out that episode, definitely give it a listen.
Devin interviews me on a wide range of topics, but we primarily chat about websites and the two questions that have to be answered on a website, or really anywhere that you show up. A big thanks to Devin for letting me share this content on the Brands that Book Podcast. Be sure to check out The Anchored Podcast for more from Devin.
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-devin-robinson-episode-72
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Transcript
Essential Questions for Businesses
00:00:05
Speaker
Because again, I think what it comes down to is being able to answer those questions. Can you prove to people that you're good at what you do? And then two, can you establish that you can get results for someone like them?
Introduction and Host Details
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
00:00:34
Speaker
This episode is a bit different. This is actually the recording of an interview I did for Devin Robinson's podcast, The Anchored Podcast. You might remember Devin from episode 70 where he shared about his Instagram strategy that has resulted in a bunch of book work for him. If you haven't checked out that episode, definitely give it a listen. Devin interviews me on a wide range of topics, but we primarily chat about websites and the two questions that have to be answered on a website or really anywhere that you show up.
00:01:04
Speaker
A big thanks to Devin for letting me share this content on the Branchette Book Podcast, and be sure to check out the Anchored Podcast for more from Devin. See the show notes at davianchrista.com for the resources we mentioned during the episode, and I want to hear from you. Let me know what kind of content you'd like to see on the Branchette Book Podcast as we move forward. To leave your feedback, head on over to the Davian Christa Facebook page and send us a message. You can also DM us on Instagram, at davianchrista.
Davy Jones' Diverse Background
00:01:30
Speaker
Now, onto the episode.
00:01:36
Speaker
What's up, listeners? Welcome to another episode. Today, I have a special guest. Let me tell you, I have admired today's guest from afar for a while. His podcast has pushed me to be a better podcaster. I've bought stuff from him without him even knowing years ago. I really love what him and his wife are doing.
00:01:57
Speaker
the business mind that they have to create like value driven products for people they run an amazing photography company with some killer work and then like he is just incredible and dissecting one website and all of it the dude is all over the place i'm super encouraged by him always and i'm so thankful to have him as a guest today you probably know what is baby jones
00:02:18
Speaker
David, why don't you introduce yourself. Let us let everybody know what you do. Also, he also is killing it in the Facebook ad space. I think I may have already said that, but I've hired him to do some stuff for me and in our conference and stuff. So like he's amazing and awesome. So I'm super pumped.
00:02:34
Speaker
to have him on today. Davey, I want you to tell the people about you, about what you love. I don't know, like, you know, you got your, you got a podcast, you got an ad agency, you got a shop over here, you got photography over there, you got all kinds of stuff. Man, why don't you just tell the people who you are, where you're located, and a little bit about, like, what you
Business Ventures and Strategies
00:02:51
Speaker
do.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah man i appreciate that and likewise you are also somebody that i've admired from afar for a while i know we met united i mean not this past year but the year before actually is when we talk for the first time and then over the course of this last year being able to follow along a little bit with what you're doing and that's just been fascinating for me to watch.
00:03:09
Speaker
And again, you know, just likewise admire your business mind as well. So it was fun this past United in particular, to get to know you a bit more and then to catch your social media marketing breakout session, which we did a podcast episode on and that was released on the brands that book podcast my podcast yesterday about actually getting ready to send an email about that today. But you know, just kind of mind blown when I heard your Instagram strategy because it was just oh, unlike
00:03:37
Speaker
a lot of other strategies that I've heard. It was so unlike anything I've heard people talk about Instagram. So, that was a lot of fun. That conversation was a lot of fun. And I'm excited to dig into websites and Facebook ads. And kind of like you said, I have this crazy sort of eclectic background, come from a teaching background, taught high school English and economics, which even in my teaching background, right? Two very different subjects, but both I very much enjoyed.
00:04:01
Speaker
And then I joined my wife full time in what was her photography business, which, you know, eventually became our photography business. We don't shoot anymore. And I love shooting, but I liked business. And so that's really, yeah, I mean, and we had that conversation too. That's really what
00:04:20
Speaker
you know, I got excited about was just kind of the idea of running a business and growing that business. Eventually, that led to us co founding the rising tide society with Natalie and her husband Huey, which led to a little sort of, I guess, some time out in San Francisco, which was a lot of fun. And then us eventually stepping down from rising tide society and starting Davey and Krista. And so if people go to Davey and Krista, they can see kind of what we do now, which is branding and website design,
00:04:47
Speaker
For creative professionals in general, we work with a ton of photographers, though. And within, you know, under the umbrella of David and Krista, not only do we do custom branding and design, but we also sell templates that people can download, customize, and launch all on their own.
Transitioning Careers and Planning
00:05:02
Speaker
More recently, I started a Facebook ads agency with two buddies of mine, Jesse Marchecho and Ryan Akins.
00:05:09
Speaker
who both have also collected backgrounds of their own, but we all have sort of a love of Facebook ads. So we started a Facebook ads agency called Till Agency, which we launched about this time last year. And that's just been, that's grown like crazy over the course of the last year. So that's been a lot of fun, again, just from a business perspective and growing a new business and doing that again. But then also,
00:05:32
Speaker
you know, being able to dive into funnels on a daily basis has just been, it's been awesome. So never a dull day for sure. Which is awesome. And I love a lot of things that you just talked about. One, we did really get to like know each other at this, this united like, you know, it was funny because like every time I'd come down the stairs and I'd always be like,
00:05:51
Speaker
man where's Davey and then I'd like and we just hang out and it felt really natural and really cool and I I really enjoyed that this year man it was awesome now I love that you talked about a couple things which honestly is going to take us into a completely different trajectory than I thought this would take us but I love that you said you don't shoot anymore I just I really do now one reason because like I do love shooting I do but I do think that when you have a business there's a couple different options and one for me as as a business owner I was like
00:06:17
Speaker
Man, I would have, I would hate to have spent the last seven years of my life doing this and get nothing out of it in the end. So you either sell or scale, but it's so hard to sell a personal brand like this. So you guys decided to scale differently with branded products. Like you drove into more of the aspect of opening up a shop. And there's a lot of people who are listening, and I'm not saying people are thinking about exit strategy. I think you should always be thinking about some sort of exit strategy long term.
00:06:44
Speaker
because photography is just an interesting industry that doesn't have too much longevity with it. But like, what was that process like for you guys to go, okay, we're going to transition out of this area and more into this area, especially with clientele, and especially with like high ticket deposits and stuff like that, like payments and things like that, you know what I'm saying? Because it's so interesting to stay inside of.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And you're talking primarily transitioning from photography to branding and website design? Yeah, yeah. And then even just any kind of advice for anybody transitioning from photography into anything. What does that transition look like? Now, people, of course, may want to continue to build a great brand, but there are some people who may also be thinking about transitioning or what long-term that looks like.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So so many different thoughts on this subject in general. So they're going to be a little bit all over the place. But I feel like I should start with just something that I heard a while ago, and I think it was in a book might have been a Jeff coins book, can't quite remember. But basically, it was this concept that God wastes nothing, you know, and so I think about that even in terms of my background in education, that I apply
00:07:44
Speaker
all sorts of things that I've learned from my days in the classroom, in my business, almost on a daily basis, even if it's just in terms of communication. And so, I know that you have a teaching and coaching background as well. And I remember showing up for the first day of school and thinking I put together like this rock solid lesson plan, nobody could not
00:08:02
Speaker
it was impossible that someone would not understand the directions that I have written down. And of course, these kids didn't understand the directions that I wrote down. And so, you know, this this crash course in like learning how to communicate more effectively. So just in general, I think if you're transitioning from photography into something that's unrelated, or maybe a different kind of photography business,
00:08:22
Speaker
you'll be surprised at how much you utilize like previous experience and knowledge. So I think every step along the way, I've learned a ton and I've reflected even in starting this Facebook ads agency, back on education, back on the photography business back on, you know, starting the rise in tight society and so on. So, you know, do some reflection and think about what went well as you started some of these other businesses. For us, you know, as far as transitioning from photography to web and brand design,
00:08:52
Speaker
Like I said, my passion had always been business, marketing, sales, and so it just makes more sense. User experience when it comes to websites, conversion, those are the sorts of things that I really get excited about. And that's what excited me about the photography business was, you know, not so much the photography. Yes, I love shooting, but I like looking at it through that lens. So, for Davey and Krista, that's what I get to do. And until agency as well. That's what I get to do pretty much on a daily basis in helping people design brands and websites. So,
00:09:22
Speaker
that's sort of my background for Krista, it made sense because her actual college education was her background was design and website design in particular. So it was one of those things where as photographers, Krista built her, you know, our website, other photographers were like, hey, who built your website? And Krista would be like, well, I did it. And so on the side throughout the pretty much the duration of our photography business,
00:09:46
Speaker
she was building websites for other photographers. So when we stepped away from the rising tide society, to us, it just made sense to go in that direction. It was something that we had been doing all along. And so, you know, that that's kind of the background in terms of how we transition. Does that answer your question?
00:10:03
Speaker
That does and i love the way you talked about the fact that you waste nothing like that's really cool cuz when i think about it and i mean like transition this to me but like i think about it the first thing i did i got engaged to my wife i'm still in college i have a job and then i took a job as making fifteen thousand dollars a year.
00:10:20
Speaker
as an elementary school fundraiser, like person, it was for a company called Boosterthon, where I literally would go in and I would teach character lessons to like K through fifth graders. And I was like, you know, if I could keep, now I think about it, if I could keep K through fifth graders' attentions and teach them how to go home and sell to their parents, then I feel like I could teach this about anything. That's right.
00:10:40
Speaker
So I love the fact that you talked about that. And I love that you, like what you've done in life kind of has played a role in what you do right now. I think that's super important. Now, as I think about it, one question that I have is, okay, what, and I'm just, I'm sorry if I'm just like throwing these out there. I don't know if I, I did not prep you well for this at all.
00:10:57
Speaker
I'm good. Like, what's one of the biggest things that you see? Because, like, okay, an exit plan, an exit strategy may not be what some of the listeners right now are thinking about, but they may be thinking about, okay, Davey, like, what do I need to do to my website? Like, what's some of the biggest things that you've seen people do, especially
Establishing Competency and Trust
00:11:12
Speaker
photographers, do wrong with their website? And I don't know if you are, like, a subscriber to Donald Miller story brand, whatever, which I'm pretty sure I know that you are. So, but like, other than that, like, what would you say is one of the biggest mistakes that you see a lot of photographers make on their websites?
00:11:27
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So one thing about exit strategies and things like that that I want to get to before we jump into websites is I think that if you have a partner in business that it's super important, especially if that partner is not a spouse, to talk exit strategy at the very beginning of the business. I think that from past partnerships, I've learned how important that is just so that you know that you're heading in the same direction with whoever you're working with.
00:11:49
Speaker
For me and my wife, for me and Krista, running Davey and Krista, that's still an important conversation for us to have, although there's probably less friction there because we're married and of course, just in life, we're heading in the same direction or one would hope we're heading in the same direction. It's maybe not quite as an important conversation for us to have, even though we still have it, but whereas with Till, I have two other partners with Till and so it's very important for us to have those hard conversations at the very beginning of the business.
00:12:17
Speaker
and then talk about how we're going to get there. So that's one thing that I would say about thinking about an exit strategy. I know it seems sort of, I think for somebody starting a business for the first time as a solopreneur or as a member of a small team, it's sort of this awkward thing even to think about. But like you said, there's really two, I mean, I guess there's never just two options, but seller scale or the two primary ones. And there's nothing wrong though with just creating a boutique
00:12:42
Speaker
business you know knowing that hey it might always just be me and I'm okay with that maybe it's a side hustle or maybe you understand hey I just need to be X for this to you know support my family and for me to reach my goals and I want to keep it here as long as I possibly can so that's what I have to say about that happy to chat more about that if you have any like any follow-up questions or we can dive into websites love to talk about websites as well.
00:13:04
Speaker
No, no, I think that's great because I know that, you know, I had, I started a marketing firm with one of my friends and I think we had very different mindsets and goals going, you know, like with, as far as exit strategies were for our business. Like I wanted to grow it to be something big. He wanted to stay like, Hey, this is something that gets me, we have seven to 10 clients that pay us this much. And I'm like, nah, bruh, like that's not,
00:13:26
Speaker
That's not me. We ended up ending our partnership and it was very important for us to talk about that on the front end rather than get down years down the road and then we want different things and it becomes maybe a legal battle or anything. I really do like that idea of having those hard and necessary conversations, especially in a partnership because I have a friend who owns a massive company.
00:13:48
Speaker
five, six hundred million dollar, like such a big company. And his brother sued him. Like, you know, like, like in the company. And so like, it's important. I mean, I get sued by your own brother. Like, what the heck? So like, it's important to have those conversations ahead of time so you don't have to worry about that later on down the road. So I do, I love that. Now, so for you, okay, now we can, I think transition into the website aspect of it. Maybe you could talk about some of the biggest mistakes and that can lead into some things and remedies that you have.
00:14:15
Speaker
Or if there's like a certain other angle that you would love to attack it at, like I'm all good with that. Yeah, so one of the things that
00:14:21
Speaker
drives me a little crazy, I think just about business in general is there's a lot of fluff out there. You know, I think that there's a lot of I mean, just a lot of noise in general, where you know, people are saying, Hey, you have to do x in order to get x, you know, so you have to master Instagram in order to book clients, you know, and Instagram can be this super valuable tool in booking clients. We talked all about that during our episode together previously. But you know, that doesn't mean that it's the only way to book clients. That also doesn't mean
00:14:51
Speaker
a lot of the fluff that you hear, I think, around a topic like Instagram, like, oh, the best time of day to post or how many times you're posting. Just because you're posting at the optimized time per day or you're posting the optimal amount of posts per week, that doesn't mean that you're going to be booking clients.
00:15:09
Speaker
Yeah, that kind of stuff drives me a little bit crazy. And so, you know, I, of course, like to start at the end with whatever the end goal is. And so for a photographer, you know, typically, a website is there to drive inquiries, you know, and that's how I see it. And so I'm kind of thinking about each channel and what you're trying to get out of that channel. So
00:15:28
Speaker
I really think that it comes down to answering two questions this is primarily what my my show united keynote was about and really i think it comes down to answering two questions and if you can answer these two questions then you're going to drive inquiries and you're gonna drive bookings and i think that these two questions apply not only to websites but they apply to any channel it is that you show up.
00:15:49
Speaker
I'm not a believer that you have to show up everywhere. Ironically, I feel like Kristin and I do a pretty good job of being kind of on every channel that we can be. But the reason is because I'm curious and I like testing out things, you know? So, you know, we make it a point to show up on Instagram, on Pinterest, on Facebook, you know, and run Facebook ads.
00:16:10
Speaker
have a Facebook group and so on and so forth and all the things. But I've known people who they don't even have a website. They just have an interim account and they have successful businesses. You know, people with websites that don't have any social media presence run successful businesses. So I think it's more about answering these two questions, you know, wherever it is that you show up instead of the channel itself, if that makes sense.
00:16:31
Speaker
Yeah, it does make sense. And I also think it depends on what style of business you run and run. You know what I'm saying? I think if you want to be the person that people go to or the bee's knees or whatever, then I do think you do have to have an omnipresent kind of feeling to your brand. And I do think that you can't be super romantic about what you do. You can't just sit on one platform the whole time if you want to grow to a certain level. If you're cool where you are and you're
00:16:59
Speaker
I don't want to say complacent but you're content where you are then like cool you could kind of do that and that's you but then there's some people who subscribe to the you should be omnipresent don't be romantic about what you do because like it could change at any moment because of how quickly technology goes and so like
00:17:15
Speaker
where do you feel and you know i think we fall on this in the same way because we're very similar to where i'm like well i'm gonna go where the user is you know i'm saying and so like how important do you feel on that aspect though that it is
Role of Websites in Credibility
00:17:27
Speaker
to be able to branch out to doing different things rather than just sticking into one mode of inquiries or one thing like that
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great question. I think Till Agency, this latest business that I started is a great case study in answering this question. And with Till, we actually booked our first few clients without having a website. You know, we had this sort of like dinky landing page up. But you know, going back to the two questions that I was talking about, and I think this will help inform the answer to this question. The first one is, are you good at what you do? And then the second one is, can you get results for someone like me?
00:18:01
Speaker
Alright, so those are the two questions that I think that somebody has to answer wherever it is that they show up. And that might be just in person in relationships. So part of the reason that Till Agency I think grew so quickly is that over the course of the past number of years, I've built relationships and my partners as well, in the industry that we're trying to serve. So that you know, when we went to people and said, hey, we're doing this new thing, just want to let you know. And if you're ever interested in running Facebook ads, let us know.
00:18:27
Speaker
We've already built a level of trust with them because they know our reputation from previous businesses and that we're able to get results there. For Facebook ads in particular, people knew that while we each run Facebook ads very successfully for our own businesses, it's likely that we can get them results. We're still answering those questions even though we're not necessarily answering them on a website. Now, here's the interesting thing about this question on where and how many places you have to show up.
00:18:56
Speaker
When we're working with people that we have built relationships already, a website's not super important. If they know me personally, if they know my partners personally, that's going to carry more weight than whether we have this beautiful website or not. But once we get degrees of separation,
00:19:14
Speaker
From people who don't know us as well once we start to transition from the warmer audiences so to speak to these colder audiences to these people who haven't heard us before or heard of us before who might just know us through a friend or something like that the more important it is to have some of these assets in place.
00:19:33
Speaker
Of course, a website being one of them. When people go to the website, they want to see certain things. And if you are googling a company and they don't have a website, I think there's an element there where you're like, what should I trust them? Are they even legit? Is this just a side hustle?
00:19:48
Speaker
The same thing with Facebook and Instagram and Twitter or wherever it is that the end user is that you're trying to reach. I don't use Twitter for really any of my other businesses because that's just not where our end user is for any of our other businesses. Hey, quick question. Did you know – I just heard of this. Sorry. Did you know that Twitter has never turned a profit since 2011? I think they've been in debt like $3 billion. They spent like $3 billion and never turned a profit.
00:20:14
Speaker
Yeah, see, it's amazing to me. That's just amazing to me how Silicon Valley works in general, right? I did not know that about Twitter, but it's not shocking. To me, Twitter is like the runt of all of these social media networks. It's crazy. And nobody wants to buy it. Yeah. I'm not even sure why it still exists. Part of me thinks that the world would be a better place without it.
00:20:34
Speaker
That's not very true. Sorry, you could continue. I maybe threw you off, but I just thought that was really interesting. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So point being is, so with Till, for instance, we, of course, have since launched a website. And, you know, once we had case studies and things like that to put on our website, so we have sort of version one of our website up right now. And we already know that
00:20:54
Speaker
what the second iteration of our website is going to be and we'll probably have a second iteration up early next spring. One of the interesting things I think about just starting a new business is that you always have an idea of what you think it might be, but then once you start it, I think we often find how our assumptions aren't quite
00:21:11
Speaker
what played out in reality so for instance we thought we were gonna serve a certain kind of client we ended up serving sort of a different kind of clientele which is being great but just not what we anticipated so of course we have to make those updates on our website but we still don't have any presence on instagram or facebook
00:21:27
Speaker
or any other social media platform, which is super ironic because people are paying us to run ads on Facebook and Instagram. But it's something that we realize that we need to eventually invest time and energy into. So January 2020, you'll start seeing content there. And we have some fun plans. It's three dudes that are running this business. So we have, I think, some funny humorous stuff that we're going to do there. But point being,
00:21:53
Speaker
is that this hasn't prevented us from growing. Each month, we've booked more and more clients, and we have no presence on Facebook and Instagram. Because again, I think what it comes down to is being able to answer those questions. Can you prove to people that you're good at what you do? And then two, can you establish that you can get results for someone like them? Now, for Till Agency, I guess the best way to parse out what I mean by that second question is everybody thinks that they're a unicorn.
00:22:17
Speaker
right? You know, one of my favorite things about having a podcast and you know, you probably find this to be true as well is that you get to talk to all sorts of interesting people. So I talked to Becca Gamble, she runs Little Z Sleep, which is a sleep consulting business for parents who are trying to sleep train newborns, you know, up to five years old. I think we got her course. She has a course. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, she has a course. I think we bought it.
00:22:41
Speaker
And it works. Yeah, yeah, she's awesome. But one thing that she said is that the biggest objection people have is, well, that's great that that course works for some people, but it can never work for my kids, right? And it's just this concept that everybody thinks that they're a unicorn, right? And so, you know, even in the ads world, we'll have businesses come to us and they'll be like, hey, we know that you've gotten results for all sorts of different types of businesses.
00:23:06
Speaker
But my business, my business is unique and here's why. And so you have to establish with people that you can get results for people like them. And so I think, especially when we talk about our website, there's certain things that you can do to answer that question.
Personal Branding and Connections
00:23:21
Speaker
And again, the ways that you answer that question on a website is going to be pretty similar to how you answer that question anywhere else. But even if you're a photographer listening to this, you're still answering that question. People have an idea of what
00:23:35
Speaker
their wedding, you know, should look like, or maybe they're looking at their photos and they're like, Oh, well, I don't know. I'm not as cute or bubbly as the people on his website. So I don't know if this would work for me. So how can you establish with people that you can get results for them? And there's, you know, I'd say four or five different things that you'd want to focus on on your website in order to answer that question.
00:23:57
Speaker
Okay, cool. So before we dive into those four or five things, I want to transition real quick into a segment of the show that I like to call what the gram. Okay, so this is where I have dove into your social media platforms. And I have looked up some photos that I need you to give me some explain into. And this is not like, Hey, what are your settings for this photograph? This is just a little bit something on a personal level. Okay, David, you ready for that? Yeah, that's good. And I wouldn't know any of the settings for any of my photographs. I'm glad it's not. I'm glad it's not any of those questions.
00:24:25
Speaker
Awesome. Okay. And if you're listening on the podcast, of course we're going to have these photos of the show notes. So first photo, Davey, I'm going to explain it a little bit. This is a picture of you and you look like you are in a lion costume head thing and this dog. So can you explain this?
00:24:42
Speaker
Yes, this is great. This is from a Halloween party. I was dressed up as a lion, of course. This is my friend's dog, who they also dressed up as a lion. And so the question was, who wore it better? I'd like to think I did, but you know, I'm competing against Rufus. Was it completely coincidence? Oh, no, they did it on purpose.
00:25:00
Speaker
No, I'm talking about, did you dress up as this, like, you and this dog planned on dressing up all the same? Oh yeah, no, no, no. Okay. I have a buddy who was just screwing with me. Okay, that's awesome. Also, as I was perusing your Facebook account, I noticed that you take Halloween pretty seriously.
00:25:17
Speaker
No, I have friends that take Halloween pretty seriously. And they have a rule, I kid you not, they have a rule that if you don't show up in costume, they don't let you inside. So I've learned one year, almost the hard way, that you gotta dress up for this Halloween party. Okay, awesome. Alright, next photo. This is a very interesting photo of you and five other guys in bathrobes and I know a couple of these other guys and so this is very interesting. Can you explain this photo?
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah, you got Michael also up in here, Matt Schmoyer, Tyler Harrington, this whole crew of us. This is from Creative of Heart. Creative of Heart is a boutique conference for creatives. There are, you know, 99 women there. And then these are the what, six guys? These are the six guys that show up. And their husbands are the women. Exactly, exactly. So a few of us speak as well, but pretty much everybody who goes to Creative of Heart is a woman.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like it would be so you guys decided that you would meet up in the lobby or something and in your bathrobes This is actually the so they have a pajama party. Okay night So this is what we showed up in for the pajama party. Nice. Nice Okay, this next one Debbie. I need you to explain this main, bro This looks like you still got that line costume on but I think this is your real hair This is this is I used to I had long hair until
00:26:38
Speaker
I don't know, probably like five years ago. So this is what I looked like pretty much from high school through college and my first couple years of my professional life. This looks like you're still in high school. This photo right here. Yeah. I mean, it didn't help that, you know, I started teaching when I was like 22.
00:26:56
Speaker
So, probably even younger than I was in this picture. One day, I'm walking down the hallway and there was an administrator who had never met me before, literally asked for my pass. Literally asked, what are you doing outside of class? And I was like, well, I teach here.
00:27:11
Speaker
So I'm just going to the bathroom, sir. All right, awesome. And then the last one, explain what this is. This looks like your son eating the lollipop and getting his haircut, right? Yep, this is Jack. Jack is a little bit older than he is in this picture now. This was his first haircut. It was, you know, it's one of those things where I think before I had kids, I never got like how meaningful and sweet these moments are. But we bring him to this great little place that
00:27:37
Speaker
has like cars and stuff they can sit in as they get their hair cut but he's 18 months old now, he's a maniac in all the best ways and you know, some nightmare ways sometimes too but he's great. That's awesome. Okay, so like I'm gonna share a little story here because I completely envisioning our experiences being a little bit different. So I take my son to a black barber shop, okay? So this does not look like a black barber shop. Nope.
00:28:02
Speaker
I walk in right so I've never taken so first of all I take my eight-year-old white son to a black barbershop and I take my two-year-old half black half Vietnamese son to a barbershop and I'm like hey man because I've never gotten the two-year-old his haircut before his grandmother has always taken him so I walked in I was like hey man like can you cut his hair and he was like not if he's gonna be moving around in the chair and I'm like
00:28:23
Speaker
And I'm like, hey, bro, I need his haircut. He's going out of town tomorrow. This was literally yesterday. I was like, I need his haircut. He's going out of town tomorrow. I'll stay with his grandparents. His grandma usually takes them. Can you just cut his hair? And he's like, look, listen, I'm not going to cut his hair if he's going to keep. And I was like, all right. So I went over to Popeyes. I got me a large bag of fries. And then I stuck him in that chair. And I had to feed him fries so he would stay still. And I'd have to hold his head physically.
00:28:48
Speaker
hold his head so that he wouldn't move his head so that this guy wouldn't get upset. And I was like, man, I'll tip you well. Just cut the kid's hair. And so it was just really just a little bit different, you know, just a little bit different cultures. But it was probably quite different experiences. There's no way I could have pulled a camera out and started taking photos.
00:29:08
Speaker
So, yeah, this was like built for kids, you know, like had like little airplanes and stuff he sat in. There was no one older than five years old in the place. Oh, wow. And the lollipop, you know, the lollipop trick and feed it, you know, feeding feeding your kid while he's getting his haircut definitely works.
Website Design and Messaging
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that worked. OK, cool. So I did one thing right. Awesome. I probably still would not. I still will continue to take him to that barbershop because it's just a cultural thing. OK, now we're going to transition back into the show. And I would love for you to talk about those five things. So you said there's five things that you really consider when building out a website. And what would those things be?
00:29:43
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So just going back to our two primary questions that we're trying to answer, are you good at what you do? And can you get results for someone like me? And even if people don't ask those questions, right? Like nobody said nobody probably inquires and says, Are you good at what you do? Like they went on your website, and they realized that you're good at what you do. And so they inquired, but
00:29:59
Speaker
Anyways, those are the two primary questions that I'm trying to answer really anywhere that I show up. And so I think it's easiest just to go through each page that you typically find on our website to talk about how you can answer those questions. Hey, time out. Sure. Sorry. Cool.
00:30:14
Speaker
I love this. So really quickly, would you suggest, are you a subscriber of the one page layout or multiple page layouts? Cause you just said each page. And so I'm like, okay, like I have a multiple page layout and like I'm cool with that, but are you a subscriber, especially since I know you have a pretty good SEO background as well. I know I just threw you another curve ball right in the middle of your five things, but what would you suggest?
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah i mean this is one of those questions where i think at the end of the day you can make a one page layout or a multi page layout work really really well and so i think it doesn't really change the fact that you're still answering these two questions i personally like a multi page layout because i like creating content i think creating contents important and
00:30:56
Speaker
So it just, you know, once you have so much content, it's easier to organize that across pages. However, I've seen a lot of really well done single page websites as well. And again, even a lot of single page websites aren't truly single page because they have blogs.
00:31:12
Speaker
And so there's, you know, obviously each of those blog posts have a page as well. So yeah, does that answer your question? Yeah, that answers it. That's cool. Yeah. I mean, from an SEO perspective, I think, you know, of course, like different pages on your website can rank for different searches. So you can get more search visibility sometimes using or having more pages on your website. With that said, you never want to have a page on your website just for the sake of having a page on your website. So each page should have a purpose. And if you're not quite sure what that purpose is, it's probably best to get rid of that page.
00:31:41
Speaker
Okay, good to know. Awesome. Starting with the homepage, I think the theme of the homepage is clarity. When somebody lands on your homepage, within the first eight seconds of them being on that page, you want to make sure that they know that they're in the right place or not. People leaving your website, people not inquiring, not necessarily a bad thing if they realize right away that maybe you're not for them. Turning people away, not necessarily a bad thing. But for those people you're trying to connect with, you want to make sure that
00:32:09
Speaker
the images that you choose on your homepage, really across any page on your website, but especially when people meet you for the first time are those like signature images. So I can think of, you know, when I think of you, for instance, Devin, there's a few images in particular that come to mind right away, you know, that are just like, and I think a couple images that you could put in front of me and me not necessarily knowing you took them, but having an idea. Yeah, I think this looks like a anchor and veil image. Does that make sense? Yeah.
00:32:37
Speaker
So in addition to providing clarity in terms of just the imagery that you're including on your website, also having a strong brand like value proposition statement or brand positioning statement. And this is something that I see, especially photographers leave off their website, which is a little bit mind boggling because photographers are always going to be locally based on some level.
00:32:57
Speaker
even if you're not shooting in the town you live, you shoot somewhere, right? So establishing the area in which you serve super important. And I would say even for people who are trying to shoot destinations, you know, if you're always shooting in Jamaica, then, you know, of course, including like Jamaican, you know, wedding photography, or whatever it might be important on your homepage. But I think a lot of people are just trying to book destination weddings just anywhere. It's best to serve on your local area, because those people who are then going to get married in a destination, if they know of you,
00:33:27
Speaker
then they're likely or more likely to book you and bring you with them, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, I have, gosh, I have like five gestation weddings in all different countries coming up. And I think all of them are from Charlotte or like around Charlotte or something like that. So I completely agree with you on that. Yeah. So awesome images in the hero spot of your website, the hero spot of your website is just that area above the fold, the first area that you see that loads on a website.
00:33:52
Speaker
And then again, clarity around the message that you're trying to send. So I would think minimally, what you do, you know, whether you're a wedding photographer, portrait photographer, boudoir photographer, whatever it might be, and then where you're serving people, I think that information is key. I think sometimes we try to get really cutesy, especially when it comes to like value proposition statements and stuff like that. And it just comes off as not clear, you know, there's a lack of clarity there. So I would rather somebody write less, and it be clear, then
00:34:22
Speaker
write more or include more just because they feel like they should, that results in, you know, unclarity. Okay. Hey, can you grade my value prop statement real quick? Great it. Sure. Okay. When you open my website, it says bold and intimate images for those who don't want the same basic wedding photos as their friends. Yeah, I like it. I mean, I think that's super clear. And again, people know right away
00:34:46
Speaker
what it is that you're about and that you're a wedding photographer. So I like that. You know, I think in my keynote, I use James and Jess as an example, too. So there's somebody to check out. I would like to think that if you went to our website at davianchrista.com, that you would understand right away what it is that we do. But clarity is key here. And I think that
00:35:03
Speaker
you know it doesn't have to be a qt statement i think if you don't have something like that and for the time being you're just like san diego wet wedding photographer that's better than coming up with some sort of statement that doesn't really mean anything does that make sense yeah that's for sure okay cool and you mentioned this phrase and i love this phrase i use it but i don't know if people understand it because it comes from a fairly archaic method of consuming information but what is above the fold mean
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah for sure so above the fold so think about a newspaper and newspaper is usually folded in half so you see everything above the fold so that's where it comes from on a website what we talk about above the fold is anything that you don't have to scroll to see.
00:35:42
Speaker
So generally, the information that you want to put above the fold, a strong call to action, any critical information that you want people to see. Just remember that the farther something is down a page, the less likely it is that people will see it. I think on every heat map I've ever installed on a website, it doesn't matter how strong that content is. More and more people drop off as you scroll down.
00:36:06
Speaker
Cool, I love that. Now, let's transition to another page. There's two more pages I want to talk about before we get done. One is going to be the about me page and the second one is going to be kind of the investment slash experience page. And what you suggest people do with that, because the about me page is where I see 95% of photographers do wrong, like just be completely off. And so like, what would you suggest for that? Yeah, the about page, I think if the theme of the homepage is clarity, the theme of the about page is empathy. And remembering that
00:36:33
Speaker
What does it mean to be empathetic? Well, you know, it's not about you. The about page isn't really about you. Yes, people want to get to know you. But people want to know you only insofar as it helps them answer that question. Are you capable of getting results for somebody like me? So a couple things that I see on about page that
00:36:53
Speaker
you know, really, I just I think maybe people put there just because they're not quite sure what else to put. Or maybe, you know, again, it's a good thing to want to connect on a personal level, especially if you have a personal brand, which, you know, many photographers do with your clients. But, you know, I often see like a random list of my favorite things, you know, like just random list of here are a couple of my favorite things. I like Starbucks, I like dogs.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah, I love Oreos, things like that. Oh, and I know a photographer that loves Oreos, so that was not like a jab at her. Like, I put that on my website a while ago. Like, I was just thinking literally about the stuff that I put on mine. It's like, Oreos. My wife went Starbucks. You know, like, I thought about all this stuff. Yeah. And I was like, oh my gosh.
00:37:33
Speaker
And just to be clear, lists aren't bad. But here's the lens in which we should look through that. And so interviewed a copywriter who I think is super talented, Jester Nana, on the Brands at Book Podcast. And she's basically said, the things that you include in these lists, you want to make sure that they help people imagine you doing what you claim you can do. Like, including, I really like sweatpants, I really like McDonald's. But does imagining me eating
00:38:00
Speaker
my body weight McDonald's on my couch in sweats. Does that help somebody imagine me designing a website for them or me running Facebook ads for them? No, absolutely not. Right? So that's the lens which I would decide whether something belongs on my about page or not.
00:38:16
Speaker
The about page is a great place to put into words and through images what somebody is feeling or what somebody believes. Another example of somebody who comes to mind is Petronella. So if you look up Petronella photography, she serves people who are getting married and are having multicultural weddings. And I think she does a good job of telling her own story and using that to connect with people who are going through the process of planning a multicultural wedding.
00:38:43
Speaker
Cool, I love that. All right, so now as we transition from the about me page, what would you suggest? Because one of the biggest questions people always ask, even in my group, they're like, should I put my starting price? Should I not? Like, I have an investment and experience page combined together because like,
00:38:58
Speaker
I want them, so one, and you can tell me if I'm doing this wrong, but one, I know they're coming to my page for the prices and I don't want to hide that from them, but I also want to pre-qualify them for what my prices are going to be by the work and the experience that we provide. And so how do you suggest somebody set up a page like that?
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. And that's, I think, always the debate is whether you should put pricing on your website or not. And again, I think that there's people who include full pricing on their website. And, you know, that's super successful for them. And they still book a lot of clients at the prices that that they're listing. And that's all fine and good. I would never, though, present my pricing without including it in the context of the experience that I'm providing somebody. I think even if somebody says that they're just looking for pricing, they're really not. All right. So
00:39:47
Speaker
We're believers in, if you want to list pricing, include a starting at price instead of full pricing. That way you are still qualifying people.
00:39:56
Speaker
And so when somebody inquires, they should at least be able to meet whatever that starting at price is, or whatever the average couple spends. That's another way that we recommend doing it, seeing the average couple spends X just to qualify people on the way in. But here's the deal. If maybe you're struggling to get inquiries or you're just starting out, I wouldn't put your pricing. I would just get on the phone with everybody who's interested in working with you. I think that's a valuable experience. And I wouldn't qualify people. I think that
00:40:24
Speaker
you know, if you are just drowning in inquiries, and you're like, I don't have time to spend on all of these people, you are only willing to spend $100 on wedding photography, then put your starting at prices or then put, you know, the average client spends. But in general, the services page or the investment page or the experience page, whatever you want to call it, I think is best used to show off the transformation that you can provide clients. So if you're a wedding photographer,
00:40:50
Speaker
that might be having a page on your website called weddings. On that page, people are going to see your philosophy, how you approach a shoot, your process, a couple signature weddings. I'm a big believer of putting your galleries, especially if you do multiple kinds of photography, putting your galleries on the page
00:41:07
Speaker
where you explain the experience so having a wedding's page and then galleries on that wedding's page instead of having a wedding's page over here and then another page people have to go to in order to find your galleries again i think it just creates a more cohesive experience as people scroll through that page and then another important part of the services page but this is something that should be throughout your entire website social proof another mistake that i see people make is that they really get social proof to its own page
00:41:36
Speaker
And like, when you see like a kind words page on a website, like, I would say that it's less likely someone's gonna click on it, of course, they're gonna think, well, you know, these are going to be kind words about, you know, this person, right? But when they're spread throughout a website, and they're used, every time you make a claim to suddenly reinforce that claim, then in a more, I think, subconscious way, people are seeing that other people have been really happy with your service. And
00:42:04
Speaker
yeah they really can do that or they really have done this or what they're saying that they can do for other people. So that's something else that I would make sure social proof shows up in a big way on your services page. It's not just testimonials but it might be places that you've been featured as well but then also that social proof shows up anywhere else you're making a claim which is really any page of your website.
00:42:25
Speaker
That's awesome. And I love that because I have a hot heat map, like a hot jar heat map on my page. And I noticed, this is really interesting. I noticed on my portfolio page, nobody actually looks at my portfolio. So what I did was I have a video that I love. If you watch this video, then you just fall in love with our work, hands down. And then I have where they can actually click. Do they want to see weddings or engagements? And then go through there. And then right under that, I have full galleries. Nobody clicks.
00:42:51
Speaker
on the engagement or wedding photos to see my individual portfolio pictures, they all either click on the video or they click on galleries. Like, I just feel like people don't want to see any more just like one photo that shows the best of your work ever. Like, they want to see what full galleries look like. And I thought that was really interesting because the heat map really told me a lot. And so even just talking about that real quick, what are maybe some heat maps? Cause you said you, sounds like you've used a bunch and then what, or a couple. And would you suggest people to use those on their websites?
00:43:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think it'd be super helpful tool. I wouldn't run it all the time because things like that do have a tendency to occasionally slow down your website. I would make it a point like run a heat map on a specific page. I think if you're running it on your entire website, what you're going to find is there's too much data to go through.
00:43:39
Speaker
I would say, hey, I'm going to focus on my homepage this month and improving it as much as I can based on the data that's in front of me. So that'd be Google Analytics, of course, at a minimum, and then installing something like a heat map and seeing where people are going and seeing where people are clicking. In order to make a decision on, you know, one, you might notice that people are clicking to a spot that you don't necessarily want them to go to right away, right? So if somebody's trying to get to know us for the first time, there's a few places that we'd like them to go. And then other places where, you know, who knows, like, for instance, like,
00:44:07
Speaker
If someone comes to our homepage, we would love for them to either get to know us a little bit more or go peruse our services or our past work, stuff like that. Yeah, they can go to our blog and we stand by, of course, all the blog content on our blog, but some posts are better than others. So why would I want them to go to the very strongest post instead of just whatever is latest on the blog? Just as like a small example. So I think if you're doing it that way, you're going to be a lot more productive because over the course of six months, you're going to go through all the primary pages on your website, right?
00:44:35
Speaker
instead of running a heat map on every single page and then trying to analyze all of that data, I think people would just get overwhelmed and then they just have this random heat map data they don't do anything with. Cool. Now, as we land the plane a little bit, what other things that maybe you haven't hit on or anything like that would you suggest people to be aware of? Or even if you could say, all right, leave this episode right now and do this to your website, what would it be? That's a tough question.
00:45:01
Speaker
I would say doing a content audit at the end of every year is a super valuable task. And what I mean by a content audit is like really going through your website from top to bottom. Of course, this primarily includes your blog posts as well. And getting rid of old content that is no longer relevant and just straight up getting rid of it. I mean, I remember as a photographer, this being one of the most valuable things that we did
00:45:26
Speaker
and I think resulted in increased bookings for the kind of client that we wanted to work with because we got rid of all the stuff on our website that didn't resemble the kind of work we wanted to be shooting tomorrow. So we got rid of just probably dozens of sessions because the very first session you shot, that doesn't need to be on your website anymore. I mean, if it's this classic post and that's your best work, yeah, sure, but it probably isn't.
00:45:51
Speaker
So I think doing a content audit can be a super valuable experience. It can cut out a lot of the bloat. And then you'll probably notice maybe there's a couple blog posts or there's a couple areas of your website that they're still pretty good, but you've grown a little bit since then or you've changed direction a little bit since then. So you need to go back and update.
00:46:08
Speaker
So I think in general, that's something that we do at the end of every single year. And it's one of our most valuable exercises because it really does in many ways set the tone for the next year as well. And you just find that you have a ton of really great content that's still there that you can then reshare and reappropriate for new stuff you
Inspiration and Personal Interests
00:46:27
Speaker
have coming up. Very cool, man. I've enjoyed this. I want to kind of land a plane with some speed questions. Is that cool with you? Yeah, absolutely. The first two are not so speedy, though. Number one, what is your biggest source of inspiration?
00:46:38
Speaker
Oh, I love looking to other industries just in general. And so I think that I try not to look at direct competitors. When we were photographers, I almost never looked to other photographers to see what I should be doing or how I should be marketing my business. I'm always looking to other industries and these are just other areas that I enjoy. What are some other things that you're interested in and how are those businesses
00:47:06
Speaker
Marketing themselves and what are they doing? And so to me just from like a business perspective and coming up with new strategies and ways to get in front of people That's where I'm looking for inspiration not so much Oh, well, what is this other ads agency doing or what are these other web designers doing? I think that's a great way, you know to get stalled out and to get stuck Yeah, for sure. Very cool. Now, what is your favorite way to learn?
00:47:31
Speaker
Oh, I really enjoy podcasts. For sure. I like case studies in particular, you know, so any podcast that's focusing on like a specific example of, you know, this other business and what they did is, again, I think also super inspirational for me as well. So, you know, one podcast that I love in particular is how I built this because you're digging into a single business. Of course, like a lot of these businesses that they're talking about have nothing to do with what I'm doing. So for instance, like,
00:47:55
Speaker
you know, the guy who built Southwest Airlines, like, of course, I'm not building an airline. But I think that there's always things that you can pick up there and say, Okay, well, how can I appropriate that idea for, you know, whatever it is that I'm doing, as far as inspiration goes, as well, I think rest is a big thing that I've been learning, especially lately, is,
00:48:15
Speaker
you know, if I unplug for five days for vacation, and I truly unplug and step away, I come back like fired up and motivated and with new ideas, you know, and sometimes I forget that, you know, I'm not very good sometimes at like, taking a step back and turning everything off and letting my mind wander and, you know, focus on fun or whatever. So I do feel like rest is super important in that regard as well. Awesome. All right, now I don't know if you drink soda, but are you a Pepsi or coke guy?
00:48:41
Speaker
Don't drink soda. All right. Well, cool. That's a good decision. iPhone or Android. iPhone. Okay, good. Oof. Okay. Now, what is your favorite music, song, artist, whatever right now? Maybe it's stuck in your head on the way to, you know, this, you're whistling it. I don't know. What is your favorite thing you're listening to right now? Yeah. Josh Carroll's. Yeah. So more of like, it's a little bit of folk rock, you know, like folk rock in general, but Josh Carroll's right now.
00:49:09
Speaker
Lumineers. Okay. Okay. I like them. I like them. Okay. All right, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Garrell. So this time of year, Josh Garrell's at being Advent and everything. I will say though, that do you listen to Spotify? So, hey, here's the thing. So I was actually an early adopter. I was invite only Spotify. Like I was way back in the day, Spotify, but now, but now because I have an Alexa and their family plan is much cheaper, I do Amazon music.
00:49:33
Speaker
Okay, so we haven't, I mean, we have an Alexa, but we haven't looked into like Amazon music, I guess it's included with Prime though, right? No, it's like, it's like limited with Prime, but you can unlock it like on every device we have up to 10 people or something like that. It's 13 bucks a month. And so I'm like, ooh, it's pretty good. So we got the family plan there.
00:49:51
Speaker
I do not like the fact that they don't do what you're about to say and I know you're about to say is like they did that whole decade thing. Spotify does like your year in review in your decade. And I'm like, come on, Amazon, I need this. I want this so bad. Oh, it's so much fun going through that. And it was fascinating. And for 2019, one of my most listened to albums, get this Kanye, the new Blink 182. I have spent some time listening to the Kanye album. It's a pretty short album. I liked it and everything.
00:50:18
Speaker
And I definitely listened to it on repeat for a while. But you can only listen to a 40-minute album so long, right? But Blink-182 came out with a new album this year. And it's funny, Blink-182 was the music I listened to when I was in the late middle school, high school,
Content Creation and Online Presence
00:50:34
Speaker
right?
00:50:34
Speaker
And then, you know, I'm teaching five or six years later, you know, after I graduate high school. And, you know, kids are, of course, asking, Mr. Jones, you know, what music do you listen to? I'm like, well, or what music did you listen to when you were in high school? And I'd be like, well, you know, like Green Day, blink 182. And at the time,
00:50:51
Speaker
Didn't even know but like I mean they were still making music so all these kids in my class were like Yeah, I listened to them as well, and I'm like this is I'm like you guys don't even know that like I listen like og-blink 182 It was a Friday night
00:51:07
Speaker
That's right. Again, don't get me integrated. This is a whole other conversation. But I feel like Green Day, everything from when September ends on, I think just went downhill. It went the wrong direction. But I really enjoyed the latest Blink-182 album. I felt like it really brought me back to some of their original stuff. Nice. Awesome. And then I was going to say, do you have Amazon, Alexa, or Apple HomePod?
00:51:30
Speaker
We have an Alexa, we also have like a little Google, whatever they're small devices, it's like around. Google HomePods, I don't know. Whatever it is, we don't even have it plugged in, but so we use the Alexa. Nice, nice. Okay, well man, as we kind of end things, maybe one last thing that you could leave our listeners with, and then where can people find you? Yeah, for sure. So the last thing that I'll say, we didn't get to talk about the blogging or content creation very much, but content creation is, it's okay, we can save it for another conversation.
00:51:59
Speaker
But content creation whatever it might be whether it's podcasting or blogging or whatever medium it is that you choose to create content it's one of the best ways to answer those two questions whether you're good at what you do and whether you can get results for someone like me because.
00:52:14
Speaker
you're able to show that you're getting results for other people. You know what I mean? I think that's the value, right? In like blogging a session is that you can say, hey, look, see, I've gotten these results for all sorts of other people. For you, Dave Ramsey fans out there, like Krista listens to Dave Ramsey every single day, you know, and he's saying the same things every single day. He's just saying it. Yeah, he's just responding. But he's responding to all these different kinds of people and all these different kinds of situation.
00:52:40
Speaker
And I think that's the magic right there is that he basically gets to show how his principles apply to all of these different situations. So content creation, super important in building trust and establishing, you know, some some solid answers to these questions.
Where to Find Davy and His Ventures
00:52:53
Speaker
That's kind of the last thing that I would say, where you can find me, you can find me over at Davey and Krista calm, you can find me at Davey T Jonesy on Instagram.
00:53:02
Speaker
We have a Davey and Krista Instagram account. Krista has her own Instagram account as well. Instagram account to all those places. In the Brands That Book podcast, yo. Brands That Book podcast. And then lastly, Till.agency. T-I-L-L.agency. That's the new Facebook advertising agency. We're doing a lot of really fun stuff over there. And I'm looking forward to just 2020 and seeing how that grows as well. Have you?
00:53:25
Speaker
Yeah, if you enjoyed this episode, would love to hear from you, so feel free to reach out. Heck yeah, so pumped. Also, before you go, I watched this the other day on YouTube. It was the top 10 most outrageous moments on the Dave Ramsey podcast. It's about an hour long, but it is thoroughly entertaining.
00:53:42
Speaker
I mean, it's like, oh, I'm in debt $300,000. Oh, my daughter embezzled $85,000 from our business. Like, it's insane. It's insane. You got to watch it. But anyways, David, thank you so much for being on this episode, man. I'm so thankful for you as a person, as a business owner, as a teacher, as everything you do, man. Super thankful for your friendship and who you are. Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me on the show. Thank you, man. Thanks so much.
00:54:08
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to dvandchrista.com.