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Episode 221: Power Couple Ashley Molesso and Chess Needham Bring You 'The Gay Agenda'
131 Plays4 years ago
Ashley Molesso and Chess Needham (@ashandchess) are here to talk about their incredible and beautiful book The Gay Agenda: A Modern Queer History and Handbook (Morrow Gift, 2020) as well their stationery business that pushes art into the political realm.
This show is sponsored by Scrivener, creative by writers for writers. Use the coupon code NONFICTION at checkout to receive 20% off your purchase of Scrivener.
Keep the conversation going on social media @CNFPod and @BrendanOMeara across the big three. And if you're feeling kind share this with a friend and considering leaving a nice review on Apple Podcasts.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:02
Speaker
ACNFers Creative Nonfiction Podcast is sponsored by Scrivener. Scrivener was created by writers for writers. It brings all the tools you need to craft your first draft together in one handy app. Scrivener won't tell you how to write, it simply provides everything you need to start writing and keep writing. If you enter the coupon code nonfiction at checkout, you'll receive a 20% discount on the regular versions of Scrivener for Mac OS or Windows.
00:00:32
Speaker
That'll buy you some coffee to fuel that writing sesh if you ask me some good java out there. So whether you plot everything out or plunge in, write and restructure later, Scrivener works. Your way. How am I still writing about this crisis and it seems like nobody is caring enough to help besides the people that are being affected by it?
Meet Ash and Chess
00:00:54
Speaker
Well that's Chess Needham, his partner's Ashley Moleso. Together they are Ash and Chess, and this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast. Ooh, feel that groove, man. Hey, I'm Brendan O'Mara, host of this here rodeo. Thanks for being here.
00:01:18
Speaker
Thanks for spending the time with us. I mean that. And you know what? You're going to want to keep the conversation going on social media, at cnfpod or at Brendan O'Mara, across the big networks. Email the show with questions or concerns and even consider leaving the show a voicemail by heading over to BrendanO'Mara.com ahead and clicking the appropriate button. I'll answer the question on air. You can also email the show, Creative Nonfiction Podcast, at gmail.com as well. I'd love to hear from you. The show is for you.
00:01:48
Speaker
While you're there, sign up for the monthly newsletter to receive reading recommendations, cool articles, writing tips, and what you might have missed from the world of this podcast. First of the month, no spam, can't beat it.
The Gay Agenda: A Modern Queer Handbook
00:02:01
Speaker
Anyway, Ash and Jess are the authors behind the Gay Agenda, a modern queer and history handbook. It is published by Morrow Gift. It is an incredible work of art and an incredible resource. It's fun and educational.
00:02:17
Speaker
What a world! A little about Ash and Chess. Here's what their website ashandchess.com says. Ash and Chess is a cute stationery company run by queer and trans power couple Ashley Molesso. She her. And Chess Needham. He him. Based out of Richmond Virginia they create greeting cards
00:02:42
Speaker
art prints that are bold retro color palettes and they often use their artwork to make a political statement. It's great stuff. We talk about a bit about their roots, how they met, how they launched their company and came to write the gay agenda of
Ash and Chess' Personal and Professional Journey
00:03:00
Speaker
course. And of course you'll hear their combined bookshelf for the apocalypse so you'll have that to look forward to as well as my parting shot. The segment formerly known as my long intro
00:03:13
Speaker
Why wait any longer? Here's my conversation with this power couple, Ashton Chess.
00:03:25
Speaker
Ash, you go first because your name comes first in Ash and Shell. Okay, so I grew up in Arkansas. I grew up in Northwest Arkansas. I kind of didn't want to stay there. And so whenever I graduated high school, I moved to New York.
00:03:44
Speaker
for college and the reason I went to New York I like I mean it's funny I didn't really ever think I wanted to go to New York but like I just I had family there and I knew I didn't want to stay in Arkansas so I kind of was like I'll go where my other family is so I ended up in the city and I went to Fashion Institute of Technology and I studied textile design so I kind of like
00:04:12
Speaker
always did artsy things. I don't know. There's not much to say about... That's a pretty bold move to go from the Deep South to a fashion capital of the world in a lot of ways. I don't know. It's so wild. It's so funny how much I've changed from my first part of my life, zero years old to 18, and then 18 to
00:04:42
Speaker
28. It's like, yeah, describe that, describe that a little bit from zero to 18. Like, what was, you know, what was that transition we owe that period like where you were able to, you know, ultimately sort of build up that kind of courage to get out of this place that clearly, you know, wasn't resonating with you.
00:05:01
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I mean, like, I don't really know what wasn't. Like, I feel like I just had this weird drive inside of me and I don't want to stay here forever. Like, I hadn't really traveled too much, like, growing up. Like, we kind of, like, as a family, we would take, like, road trips to, like, Florida or, like,
00:05:20
Speaker
sometimes we would go to California because my parents like were in the Navy there and like they had friends there still so like that was as far and then like New York, well I guess that is a lot of travel actually but I don't know I just like felt that like there wasn't anything for me in Arkansas like career wise
00:05:41
Speaker
I mean, honestly, whenever I was a kid, I didn't know what I really wanted to do. There were times where I was like, I want to be a dinosaur when I grow up. I didn't have a clear idea of what it even meant to be an adult working and everything. You just knew that it was somewhere away from where you grew up.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, so I just, I was like, I want a new, I want a new start. Didn't see myself, there's a university, there's the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville, and it's a really big college, and they have a lot of different majors and schools there, but I just was like, none of it interested me, and I wanted to do something creative, something not Arkansas.
00:06:28
Speaker
I think like, I don't know. I try to think, whenever I think about it, I'm like, I'm surprised that I even like left sometimes because like, I don't even remember what was going through my mind when I was like a teenager, like figuring out what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. Like I just kind of got here, I guess. That's awesome. That's awesome. How about you, Chas? Um, let's see. So I'm from New Jersey, like right outside of New York. Um, so Ash and I met in New York. That's how,
00:06:58
Speaker
We first met in Brooklyn, but yeah, I'm from a small, like kind of suburban town, I guess, in New Jersey called the summit. And I ended up going to New York for college. I went actually first to SVA for photography. Um, and I went there for like, I think I was there for a year and then half, half a semester. And then I decided photography was not really what I wanted to do, like career wise.
00:07:24
Speaker
It probably didn't help that we also had a lot of visiting photographers come in often and be like, it's really hard to make it in the photography world. You're probably not going to do it. Or you'll end up shooting wedding photos for your whole life if you want to do something else. They just made it sound really difficult.
00:07:40
Speaker
And then I was really supportive. Yeah, exactly. Let me just cut in. That's what they did at FIT too. I feel like in any creative thing, they're like, well, only like 2% of you are going to make it. And it's like really discouraging. It's insane. Maybe it's like a cover your ass kind of thing where it's like, well, we can't promise these people amazing jobs in their fields. So we should at least let them know that it's tough. But
00:08:06
Speaker
I knew I liked it, but it was just like not exactly what I wanted to do. But I had been not a great student in high school and like photography was kind of my outlet there and was like my skillset. And so I ended up going to school for photography just because I felt like that was what was open for me. After I did my year and a half at SVA, I realized I actually wanted to get into education and I transferred to NYU and I studied education, specifically special education. And then I actually taught
00:08:34
Speaker
in the New York City DOE for seven years up until last June when I finally, they call it, resigned. I like to say I retired. We decided to work on Ash and Chess full time. And then we moved down here to Richmond, Virginia after that, which, so that's been like the big change for me. Cause I, I'm like, Ash, like New York City was always available to me. It was like, my parent, my mom worked there when I was growing up.
00:09:02
Speaker
I would go in all the time as a kid, like friends would go in. It was just like the place to be. And it was where so many people from my town ended up and probably are still there. So moving down here to Richmond now, which is like the beginning of the South, I guess. Nice. And so how did you guys end up meeting? Well, we met on a dating app. We met in 2015. We met on a dating app. We both almost stood each other up on the first date, but we didn't. Luckily.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's how we met. I mean, we had like, I don't know, Ash, our first date was good, right? Yeah. So like I was on the edge. I was like sick of meeting people from the internet when I met Chess and I almost ditched. I was like, I don't know if I can take another like insane person like from the internet. Cause like, I feel like everyone I was meeting before Chess was like complete opposite of like what I was like even
00:09:59
Speaker
how I live my life and it was just really like unsettling to be around so many uncomfortable people and so I almost cancelled. And I had another date lined up so I almost cancelled. Both like on the same page so like we met up like one day after work in Williamsburg and we like didn't have anything planned and we just like walked around and like
00:10:23
Speaker
hung out. And then we got a beer, we like went to the water, we went to the park, we played cards, like we did the boring stuff. But it was like, it was pretty fun. And then like chess told like chess taught me how to eat grass, like how I did my grass and like eat it, which is like so weird. Really? Wow. But chess didn't even we didn't even kiss on our first date. We were just like so interested in each other. And we're like, Whoa, I was trying to be polite. That's why I
00:10:51
Speaker
I like walked at home and then she like lingered on her doorstep and I was just like, all right, well, see you later. I was like, my Uber's here, I gotta go. And then that was the beginning of something beautiful. That's awesome. Yeah. So at what point do you start collaborating artistically in what would turn into Ash and Jess?
00:11:13
Speaker
On our second date, I taught you how to draw a cowboy hat. A cowboy hat, yeah. So that was the very beginning of the business. No, I was like, really, well, Ash has always been like, she's just so creative. It's like insane. And she's just so good at art. But I was like, what? I can't believe this. I remember she, I don't know if you remember this, Ash, but you drew like a little picture of me and you texted it to me, but I was out.
00:11:37
Speaker
My brothers, it was like three days after we met, I was at my brother's birthday party and you like had drawn a little portrait. I remember I did it with my neon gel pens. Yeah, I thought it was so special and I was like captivated. But Ash had always worked in, you know, like in art and fashion. She was working at a wallpaper designer at the time that we met. And she kept telling me like, I really want to start a stationary company. I really want to start a stationary company. And I just was like, at first I was like, yeah, okay, okay, sure, whatever. Like that doesn't sound like
00:12:07
Speaker
a thing to me, like I knew that, like I knew of like Hallmark and like, I'd seen more kind of like cutesy designs by like rifle paper and stuff like that, like big companies. And so I was like, yeah, I don't really understand how this would be something that you would ever do as a job, but it does sound like fun to do. And then Ash took me to, there was this thing called the National Stationary Show. It actually just closed now, unfortunately, like
00:12:34
Speaker
COVID and all that didn't really treat that industry well. They combined it with New York now officially now, I think. Yeah, yeah, they did. But yeah, Ash took me to that show and we like walked up and down the aisles. It's like this giant convention at the Javits Center where everyone sets up a booth and like you kind of design like a mini store where people can come through and just see all this cool art. And like we walked through, I saw really cool art. And I also was like, Ash's art is just as cool as this art that I'm seeing here.
00:13:04
Speaker
So then I was like a little bit more, I was a little more open to the idea. And then we kind of just jumped in in 2017 was our first show, right? Yeah. Yeah. So then we like started designing our first set of cards. I think we started in August 2016 is when we got
Rise of the Stationery Business
00:13:23
Speaker
our first four cards printed.
00:13:25
Speaker
Yeah, we had, we didn't know like anything really about the industry. We like, we did a line of, yeah, it was four cards and I think we expanded it a little bit by the time of our first show, but like we had no awareness of like how to print cards in like a cost effective way and how to package things. Like everything was just trial and error at that point, but it was, it was fine because I had a job at that time. Like I was a teacher, so I had like a salary and stuff. So we were able to.
00:13:54
Speaker
show our stuff at the, at the first show in May, 2017. And we got a really good response from it. And then after that, we just kind of like people started to know who we were like slowly, but surely. Um, and then just like every year that we did the show, we got more and more retailers and it just kind of blew up from there. And then when I quit my job in 2019, yeah, 2019, it just kind of
00:14:20
Speaker
was like, well, we actually have to make this work as a full-time thing anyway. So yeah, it's just kind of grown pretty rapidly, which is really cool.
00:14:30
Speaker
That's amazing. I was curious as to the evolution of the business too because it's such a crowded industry. So it's hard to stand out and then to get the traction you need to make it viable. So it's just to hear the journey of the business and how it actually really kind of took hold kind of quick because it's pretty inspiring and it's just pretty exciting just to hear you guys talk about it.
00:14:59
Speaker
Thanks. Yeah, it's really cool. I mean, we also like, I think that we, we just tried to make it, like we really tried to stay true to ourselves, I guess. Like when we first started, cause our first four cards were like very calm. They were just like, thank you. Or like with hearts on it or something like that. And then we were like, well, you know, let's just make like, we are a queer couple. Let's make things that are a little bit more like obviously being queer is like seen as political. So we're like, let's make things political.
00:15:28
Speaker
And just see what happens and people responded well to it and we're kind of like, you know, we were kind of also like filling a hole, I guess, of cute, but queer, but political, but like edgy and fun cards too. Like, I feel like we kind of have just like a different design than a lot of what you see. So I think that that definitely helped us a lot.
00:15:47
Speaker
I had a few jobs working in mass market textile design. And mass market, let me just tell you, it is so depressing. I feel like everybody just really loves these ugly things. And I had to sit behind a desk for two or three years, freelance design. There were some opportunities towards the end of my freelance career where I got to design really cute things.
00:16:14
Speaker
trends were evolving, but for a really long time I had to design these really ugly chevron blankets or medallions just knocked off from Shutterstock and stuff. It was just so exciting to be able to make art that you didn't see in the mainstream. It was conversation starter stuff. Oh my gosh, that's such a wild concept that you
00:16:43
Speaker
would like make this cute stuff but it's like saying something important instead of just saying like live laugh love or whatever it was just like such a breath of fresh air to decide like oh we're not gonna stick it to like what is safe because like that's what so many companies do I feel
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, like making average stuff for average people is the very definition of the mass market. So you really have to go to the edges if you want to make a statement and even just to, I don't know, to stand out and to find your audience, your smallest viable audience as Seth Godin might call it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even when we started, I remember in our first catalog, we said that we were
Identity and Style in Business
00:17:27
Speaker
Well, at the time we had identified as a lesbian couple because it wasn't out as trans yet. But like our first catalog said like, oh, like it's run by a lesbian couple, Ash and Jess. And like people were like, oh my gosh, you can't write that in your catalog. People aren't going to buy your stuff or like maybe I can guess it. And we're like, okay, but I don't want to sell stuff to people that don't want to buy our things because of who we are. Yeah. I think that that actually helped us stand out. I mean, we actually just got,
00:17:57
Speaker
I think one of our first, I think it was 2017. I'm not going to name any names, but there was like a big box retailer that ordered some stuff from us, like ordered a large order from us. And they got some things that were like, I guess maybe seen as like subversive. I don't even remember if it was. I ordered.
00:18:13
Speaker
I'm glad you came out and it's a card with a closet with rainbow clothes inside of it. And it's just like a coming out card. Your memory is so good. Yeah, but they ordered it, but it was funny because it's like a very like big, like across like the country. Well, that's what I'm saying is they, they ordered it in 2017 and then they didn't reorder it. So we were like, I guess it didn't sell well, like whatever.
00:18:41
Speaker
But they just emailed us back and were like, I think we were ahead of our times or you were ahead of your time and now we want to reorder it. Three years later now, it's like, fine. I don't even know if I want to sell it to them again, but whatever. So how did you settle on your particular, this retro style? I love it so much. And I just wonder how, how did that evolve?
00:19:05
Speaker
I've always been really interested in like design from like the 60s and 70s There's like a lot of really beautiful graphic design like typography from that era It's like really psychedelic or like really neon just fun and bright and I feel like that has always kind of influenced like my design style and I know that it's definitely influenced chess's
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah, Ash taught me everything about design. So I feel like we also started off that way and then Ash taught me a lot about making a collection kind of where our cards aren't necessarily in collections. It's not like, oh, the flower collection, the gay collection, whatever. But they go together. And Ash definitely taught me about how to make them go together and be a little bit more cohesive that way. So I think starting that way meant that that was kind of like
00:20:02
Speaker
just our go-to style. And now it's like, I don't even know if I can design another way. It's just...
00:20:09
Speaker
That's really funny. It's really funny to hear that because like some people will come up to us and be like, Oh my gosh, like this is so your style. All of these go so well together. And I'm like, I don't see that. I feel like every single thing that we design is so different from the next. And like, I don't see them being cohesive. And it's really funny hearing other people think that we have like the set style when I'm like, we have like 40 different styles. Well, I mean, we always like color match things. Like things go together too. And also like,
00:20:38
Speaker
I do all the fulfillment too. So I spend so much time just looking at all of these styles. And I would say like, when you look at an order together, like when I pack an order, I end up looking at all the cards together and they do go well together. So it's just weird. But I'm also looking at them now and I'm like, yeah, I see what Ash is saying where there's like 10 different styles in them. But I would say there's only like one or two cards that we've ever designed that don't go like straight up. Don't go slash. I don't like them. They're the ones I don't like.
00:21:07
Speaker
How did you get comfortable with the, obviously the creative side is there, but navigating the business side of it? That's often very disparate interest when you're dealing with creative people. So how did you guys navigate that?
Business Challenges: Accounting and Taxes
00:21:24
Speaker
Oh my gosh, we hate it. I tried to push all of it onto chess. You did push all of it. That's why I'm like, I hate it. From the beginning, but we couldn't exactly do that from the beginning because chess had a full-time job the entire time, from the beginning of when we started Ashen Chess. And I always either had a part-time job or
00:21:47
Speaker
a freelance job where I did work full time, but like it wasn't all the time. Generally, I had more time to work on like back end stuff of the company. So like, we kind of both did it for a while. But like, as of lately, I hope chess is willing to take on. What do you mean you hope I am? No, like I have I enjoy
00:22:09
Speaker
I don't know, Ash is like, obviously really fast at designing and really good at designing. And like, if I come up with a concept or like do a sketch, she's able to give like immediate feedback and you know, it helps me work on it too. So like, we try to split the design, but I would definitely say like Ash does more design than I do. But like, I also, I don't know, I think it works well together because I really like
00:22:34
Speaker
doing like order fulfillment, I'm really fast at it. I have like ADHD, so I'm like, I can get super focused on something and I could just like pack orders for five hours and then realize I didn't eat lunch, but like I got everything out for the week or something. And that's just like, I don't know, it's fun for me. I would say definitely the part where we struggle is like just the actual boring stuff, like accounting and taxes. So if anyone is listening and they, they really like that stuff.
00:23:01
Speaker
tell us because we hate it so we just like hate doing it.
00:23:06
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's great to hear you talk about that because so often, people on the show, whether they be freelance journalists or essayists or anything in between, few people ever even talk about the bookkeeping side of things or the quarterly filing of taxes kind of things. But that's a very, very real element if you're going to make it as an independent contractor. However, that independent contracting manifests itself.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah, it is. And it's crazy, because it's just like, it really is another full time job. Like, it's so time consuming to actually manage all these things. And then like, you have to research the different tech structures. And like, we research it, and we like think we understand it. And then we talk about it again. And we're like, we have no idea what this is. Like, it's just, it's so complex. And it's, yeah, it's not fun. That's, that's my least favorite part.
00:23:59
Speaker
Talk a little bit about how your wonderful book, The Gay Agenda, came to
Inspiration and Representation in 'The Gay Agenda'
00:24:05
Speaker
be. It's got a pretty cool origin story. Talk about that. It all started with Instagram. I love Instagram. Instagram has been such a great tool to get freelance work and opportunities to work with other artists. I'll start from the very beginning.
00:24:28
Speaker
Um, I, we actually have done a couple of collabs with this book club called Bellatrist and it's run by Emma Roberts and Kara Price. And they do these like really cool like book picks every month. Sometimes they do two books. Anyway, we did a collab and we designed, um, some tote bags for them, like, like limited run, like really cute little bags.
00:24:57
Speaker
And this agent, this literary agent saw it on Instagram and she reached out to us and she was like, Hey, I represent illustrators. Do you guys want to make a book? And we're like, this is like spam email garbage. Like this isn't real. Cause we do get a lot of spam too. That's like, I have a great opportunity for you. Just email me back and I'll tell you it. It's funny too. Cause I always start with like re like.
00:25:27
Speaker
Did you get my email before? It's always the first email. It's like they hadn't emailed us before. It's just a joke. So yeah, so our agent, the wonderful Meg, we set up a call with her and I was like, let me just check this out to see if it's real or not. Yeah. So we talked and she was like, yeah, I found your stuff. Your stuff is great.
00:25:52
Speaker
how you feel about like making a book proposal. Like I work with a lot of artists, blah, blah, blah, like all this cool stuff. And I'm like, okay, yeah, this sounds like real. And so like me and chess kind of like thought about it and we came up with like ideas of like if we were able to make a book. Yeah, Meg was like make a book about anything. Like we just like what I like is your style. So just make a book in your art style and that was it. So we're like, oh, anything.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah. So like we came up with like a pitch, like we had a few ideas, like the one we love to tell people is that like we thought about making like dog fashion throughout the history, like throughout history or no, what was it? It was like fashion throughout history modeled by dogs. Yeah. We just were having fun drawing pants on dogs because they just look silly. It just looked funny. Um, we thought about like, we do have this idea for like,
00:26:44
Speaker
kind of like a road trip book, but like focused around queer people all over the United States. But that was a little too complicated for a first book.
00:26:53
Speaker
But then we were like, you know, we should make like something really, really gay, because like, this is a huge opportunity. If like, if a publisher picks up our idea, like we have the potential to like, get some really, like important information out there. And like, this could be a way to like, make people not feel so alone in the queer community. So we landed on the gay agenda, which is kind of like,
00:27:22
Speaker
We imagined it being half history and half handbook but it turned out to be like mostly history and then like a tiny bit of handbook. We were like throwing around all of these ideas too and we just I think like ultimately we were like okay we have like an audience at that time it was like a much smaller audience but we were like we do have an audience we do have like all of these things you know going for us and we do have an art style and obviously you know people are drawn to that but we wanted to use it to actually
00:27:52
Speaker
mean something you know because we're like I don't know both of us grew up like even though I grew up in the northeast like near New York City where everyone imagines that like everyone is gay and everyone is like queer and open and okay with it too like that was just not at all the message that I received growing up and like that's also just not the message that most people have received growing up so we were like we need to just make something
00:28:15
Speaker
that one, we wished that we had had because I would have loved to see, even if I didn't read the book, just seeing a book or normalizing, seeing the word gay and not having it be someone making fun of you or not having it be something that people are like, oh, shh, don't say that word. Don't talk about that. Just normalizing and showing our community was something that was really important to us. So that was how we ended up on making something serious and not just dogs with pants on.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, in the title of the book, too, Ash, it comes from, you know, it comes right from the roots of where you grew up. And it's just like the biggest middle finger to that guy. Totally.
00:28:58
Speaker
Oh my gosh, wait. Let me just give the listeners a background story on this. I grew up in Springdale, Arkansas, and we went to church all the time. We went to this mega church for a while. The pastor, I guess, whenever I thought of... I came up with a name.
00:29:25
Speaker
It's just like, well, I mean, it is the gay agenda, like it's perfect fit, like, kind of like taking back that like negative
00:29:34
Speaker
feel it has around it that has been used for so many years. Anyway, I googled the title to see if like there were other books actually called The Gay Agenda and what do you know the pastor of the mega church that I went to in Springdale, Arkansas wrote a book called The Gay Agenda except it was like the subtitle of it was like it's dividing the family like the nation and like it's just like really wild and it's like
00:30:02
Speaker
I mean, I haven't read the book, but I just like, I don't think you need to read it. I don't know what it's about. But I was like, you know, it's just it's meant to be like, we're taking it back. We're taking back the gay agenda.
00:30:19
Speaker
But maybe who, you know, who across like in the course of your, in your research of this book, you know, who, who stood out to you? And like, who really kind of like stuck their sort of claws into you? Like, that's kind of like, that person really speaks to me. That's a hard question. That is hard. It's like, there's so many of them to where I'm like, I don't know, like, can I pick one person because so many people just like,
00:30:49
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like we not, I don't know if we take for granted, but like, you know, kind of take for granted the fact that like, like that Ash and I, when we had identified as like a lesbian couple, we could walk around the streets and not be harassed or like not be guaranteed to be harassed. Like maybe be harassed a little bit, but not, um, you know, it wasn't like as scary or like take for granted that now I can call up like Planned Parenthood and I can,
00:31:16
Speaker
get testosterone from them and I can like do all of these things that are now open for me that so many people had to spend so much of their life hiding and like just existing was so courageous but like oh there's just so many people that I don't even know I don't know who to choose I don't want to choose one person do I have to choose one person
00:31:37
Speaker
Oh, no, not at all. You could choose however many that just really, you know, really speak to you and just, you know, I don't know. Like you were saying, you wrote this book not to feel alone, not so other people wouldn't feel as alone. I imagine that in the course of the research of this book, too, you, you also felt less alone yourselves. I'm all I'm a Libra. So I'm like, really, that's why I'm also like, hemming and hawing. But I think I would choose like,
00:32:02
Speaker
I like Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera really stick out to me. And I know that there are a ton of other black and brown trans women that like, I don't really, I probably don't even know about yet or that I've learned about since then. But like the reason, like writing about them really stuck out to me just because they were so revolutionary that they were even cast aside by the queer community. And so it's like, their courage is just, just like it,
00:32:31
Speaker
It goes beyond anyone else's in my opinion. And like the fact that they started star street transvestites, action revolutionaries to try to help other people like them was just like, they, like when you read about them, they had kind of tragic lives where like, they really didn't have much, they didn't have much community. And instead of just like wallowing in that, they built it for other people who also didn't have that. Like, so that just is, I don't know, they were just really powerful.
00:33:01
Speaker
to write about and really inspirational to write and read about.
Influential Queer Figures and Historical Context
00:33:04
Speaker
I love King Princess and I know I'm saying it but like I just like appreciate them so much because like it's really cool seeing like a younger person like using their platform
00:33:21
Speaker
for like You know like awareness of the queer community and like doing all this amazing stuff and like it's and then like like even the first time I heard King Princess on the radio I was like, oh my gosh, like I look like this song is so catchy Like I wish it was like so gay but then like later on I found out that it was a really gay song and then I discovered this like really queer artist and I was just like so floored I was like there's like this never happens like there's never a
00:33:48
Speaker
great song on the radio and it's like really actually gay but like I don't know like the more that I followed like it's just like really amazing how like their whole identity revolves around like
00:34:03
Speaker
being out and like being proud and like you know like showcasing all these like different types of queers like in their music videos and like just like in their just like life I don't know I just I really think that it's cool and I really love that like the younger generation is like embracing queerness like so openly and like it's really awesome that they even have the opportunity to do that like because you know I mean even 10 years ago
00:34:29
Speaker
it was different from how it is now like on how open you could be with your like sexuality and your like identity and everything. Over the course of writing the book and researching it was was there anything that really stood out to you and really like surprised you over the course of your research and in the writing of the book? I mean I think like the thing that surprised me the most was how little I knew of like anything like I just
00:34:54
Speaker
as we were writing it, I felt like every topic was new to me. And that was like kind of eye-opening and almost like embarrassing as a queer person to be like, oh my, like I can't believe that I actually don't know any, like this is just turning into a giant research project for me. Cause now I'm like realizing that I don't know anything about the queer community. Like, I don't know, even when I was writing like the AIDS section, that like, I, maybe that stuck, maybe that part was like the first like,
00:35:23
Speaker
kind of big surprise because it was like, I'd always heard people talk about AIDS growing up and I'd heard like, I don't know, I heard like jokes about it on like Family Guy and stuff like that. And like so many, just a lot of jokes about it in general too, of like people being like, ooh, you have AIDS or whatever. Like, I don't know why people thought that was a funny thing to say, but like people would always just talk about it. And I knew like that it was a crisis and like I'd heard the words AIDS crisis used together, but I think I didn't realize like how
00:35:54
Speaker
how much of a crisis it was and how much it really truly devastated the queer community until I started writing about it and I was realizing like all of these people watched their friends and lovers die and then watched the government just kind of be like okay with it for so long before any action was even taken like we wrote it as a timeline and I felt like the timeline was
00:36:21
Speaker
Like I had to cut it down, but the timeline literally seemed endless where it was like, how am I still writing about this crisis? And it seems like nobody is caring enough to help besides the people that are being affected by it.
00:36:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's crazy because early on in the book too, in the 50s, they identified queerness as a mental illness then. And even that took a long time to finally be debunked. And so much of that is just so embedded in the fabric that the policymakers are just like, I don't know, just hoping it'll just go away and we don't have to talk about it and just further marginalize these
00:37:03
Speaker
you know, just further marginalized people who are just the other in their mind. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think what was really interesting for me, like while writing the book, I mean, like researching and everything, I was like, really, I had no clue. A lot of people know about Stonewall. Like Stonewall is like a really like popular reference point for like queer history.
00:37:33
Speaker
And then people know that it was like the police, it was like they had raided this bar and people were finally fighting back. But I didn't realize
00:37:47
Speaker
that being queer was illegal. Saying that out loud is so insane. I can't believe that they had these laws where you had to wear gendered clothing. If you had
00:38:05
Speaker
I don't remember how much it was maybe like you had to have like at least like three pieces of clothing on like that like matched your like sex or whatever which is like so wild and like people could get arrested for like wearing like like clothes that didn't match their sex and it was just so strange like I don't even know like it's still so insane to comprehend that like
00:38:30
Speaker
police would like literally just like go into bars and arrest people and like it happened for like so there's a lot like there's like a section on the police raids and then like we we put a few of like the more like well-known um like police raids like the black cat and then there's like the Compton the cafeteria riots and like the Cooper donuts and stuff but
00:38:55
Speaker
It was just like, that really surprised me. And I didn't realize that like, I just didn't realize that like, it was like such a thing that you could literally be like arrested and like beaten by like these people who are supposed to be protected with community. It's just like, that was like, I still get chills thinking about it. And like, I mean, you know, it still probably happens today, but yeah.
00:39:25
Speaker
Yeah, and to that point of just being beaten in the case of Matthew Shepard, like beaten to death in 1998 and the fact that the defense of the murderers was the gay panic defense was a thing. And that was going to be the thing that exonerates him. It's just disgusting to think of. Yeah.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, it is. And then also, I mean, like, that's still a defense that is allowed in some states too. And like trans panic, you know, also like, Oh my gosh, this person tricked me. I didn't know that I was having sex with a man when like they have sex with a trans woman or something. It's just like, it's so crazy. And also the other crazy thing reading about that one in particular is like, if you actually research his death and you try to find information on it too, like you're bound to come across other people too, who are like, then
00:40:19
Speaker
criminalizing or criticizing Matthew Shepard after he's dead too, being like, well, he was on drugs. He wanted to buy drugs from them too. And it's just so crazy because you see that same thing still now, like even when we're thinking about like Breonna Taylor's death, so many people are like, yeah, it's just crazy the lengths that people will go to to, you know, try to justify violence and
00:40:42
Speaker
hatred against communities and then also to try to not admit that it's like rooted in racism or homophobia or transphobia or anything like that. It's very frustrating and horrible.
Conclusion and Reflection
00:40:54
Speaker
What is wrong with the world?
00:40:56
Speaker
Yeah. So as we wind down here, I don't know if you caught the email I sent you late last night about pivotal books that I like to ask people about, very influential books that you would keep in your pack if the apocalypse happens, the zombie apocalypse. And you only have a few rations, but you know what? You're going to take five books with you or so. And maybe between the two of you, what five books would you
00:41:25
Speaker
bring with you and why. I was like, okay, I saw this email this morning, like right before I went for a run. And then I spent the whole run thinking about it because I'm like a Libra and I'm very indecisive. And I was like, Oh my gosh, but what if I really did only have these two bloods? Like, Oh, what if I pick the wrong ones? But, um, I would think I would pick, okay, my first one is like, I say this so often that like, at this point I'm just sucking up to him, but
00:41:51
Speaker
I would choose amateur by Thomas Page McBee because this book, like, it just, it literally is my favorite. Um, I don't know if you've read it, but it's, it's a great book and it's written by a trans man and it talks just about like masculinity. Um, and it's in the context of a boxing match too, which is like, it's just really interesting to me because I'm trans and I like to do Muay Thai and I like to think about masculinity and gender.
00:42:19
Speaker
and all of those things and like it's one of those books where like every time I read it I get something new from it like the first time I read it was before I was out and then I started you know I was like thinking about it now I read it now and I have a different view on masculinity because I'm seen as more masculine so like that's just a really interesting one that I feel like I could read and reread and then I think the other one I would pick I'll do two for now and then if I have to do another one I'll probably stress about it but
00:42:49
Speaker
The other one I would pick is probably, I would choose like a children's book because I'm a total nerd and I used to read like all day, every day. And I just like love children's books. And I think maybe if I had to pick a children's book, I'd pick The Twits by Roald Dahl. I'm pretty sure that Roald Dahl has actually been like outed as probably like racist or homophobic, but this book just, I thought it was so funny when I was growing up and I just remember reading it and rereading it so many times.
00:43:18
Speaker
hopefully I would enjoy it in the apocalypse too okay so I've been thinking about it so I really love fiction so I'm sure that well I just wrote down my list that I've been thinking of and like all of them are fiction so like my number one would be the hype
00:43:36
Speaker
by Drew Magary. I knew you were gonna say that. I was gonna say it. I love it so much because it reads like a dream. Like you know how you have those weird dreams like you're you know you're one place and then like the scene changes and suddenly you're somebody else but you're still also yourself and like all these things are happening. It's just like such a wild book. You could probably read it over and over again and still like
00:44:01
Speaker
find like new things each time and it's just like it's really weird and I love that because there's just so many different things going on in it so it doesn't seem like one like long line of like story it's like a story with like a bunch of different branches coming out of the storyline so it's like
00:44:20
Speaker
That one is my absolute favorite. And then I think I would go with Vampires in the Lemon Grove by Karen Russell, and it's a book of short stories. But I really love Karen Russell because her stories are just so weird and magic. They make me feel like it's Halloween all year round. It's not even Halloween vibe.
00:44:49
Speaker
kind of like eerie but like really really good and like not scary but like just like odd but um i really love her writing so definitely definitely a short stories book so i have like multiple stories in one book yeah that's a good call yeah yeah and i don't know i know we have one book left between the two of us but
00:45:15
Speaker
I mean, I guess just in general, I would probably bring like an art book.
00:45:21
Speaker
so we could have something pretty to look at. Yeah, I have this really cool book. I actually just saw someone post a picture of it on Instagram yesterday, but it's this book, I think it's called like the fireside, like book of songs for children. And it's illustrated by John Alcorn. And he's like this illustrator that has a lot of really amazing, like psychedelic art from like the sixties, like the seventies and stuff. And it's like that classic, like,
00:45:50
Speaker
I don't even know like maybe like it's not really folk art but it's like psychedelic folk art that's what it reminds me of but like it's just filled with like these um children's songs like the music notes and everything accompanied by like a really awesome illustration that's just like so wild and wacky but
00:46:13
Speaker
I like that. I think I would bring that just so I could like kind of like music and looking at pretty colors.
00:46:21
Speaker
Nice. I love it. And I love the book you guys wrote. It's so great. And especially the glossary of terms at the end, I think, is super, super helpful just to know what words are taboo or were once accepted and are now their offensive. I think it's just really good to see the spectrum of those
00:46:45
Speaker
of the vocabulary and it's very fluid and evolving. So it's great to know the vernacular so you can be the best ally possible in these times. It was just really educational for me, just the history part, but also the vernacular that you bring to it. So I just think it's a great and important book that you guys have done. I really have to commend you on that. Thank you so much.
00:47:13
Speaker
Of course, and now where can people find you online, of course, and I get more familiar with your work and then hopefully pick up the gay agenda. So we are really active on Instagram. That's like basically like we have Instagram, which is just our names, Ash and Chess. And our website is the same. It's ashandchess.com. And like that's where like you can buy the book from us, which I highly recommend because we're the only place
00:47:43
Speaker
aside from mongrel um enrichment uh it's like a store we're the only place that sells them signed so like you could get an actual signed copy directly from us but um but yeah we post all of our art on our website and our instagram and like
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah. We also often update our stories so we can be hanging out right in your living room with you basically. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast and thank you for the work you guys have done and best of luck going forward. Thank you so much. It was really fun. I liked this podcast.
00:48:35
Speaker
That was a good time, if I do say so myself. Thanks very much to Scrivener for the support. Be sure to head over to their website and redeem that non-fiction coupon code. It gets 20% off. I like it. And also thanks to Ash and Jess for making the time. And of course, thank you to you, kind listener, for sticking around and spending this time with this community and spending a little time with me. It means the world. Disbumped to you.
00:49:03
Speaker
You should know that I published the final episode of Volume 2 of Casualty Awards just the other day. Finishing the rewrite of this latest draft of Tools of Ignorance put a cap on Volume 2 of Casualty Awards, I read a pretty raw journal entry. I'll spare that for you here.
00:49:22
Speaker
But you might want to go check that out, you know wherever you get your podcast It's a writing podcast for people in a hurry. It's a thing It's usually under five minutes. This one tops out around five minutes because I read a pretty long journal entry but it's also the sort of volume closer of That particular round of casualty of words. It's pretty big. I dig it next round I don't know what I'll talk about. I have some ideas, but now I'll cross that bridge once I get there
00:49:50
Speaker
or fall into the river. How's your project? How's your essay? How's your book? Is it coming along? It's a mess, right? Don't I know it, friend? But I know he can finish it. I mean, it's gonna look like garbage for a while. But that's the nature of this game. It just is. Know that you're not alone.
00:50:10
Speaker
The writing looks really bad until it doesn't. Sometimes it just goes on being bad. And that's been my experience for several years. But that's how you get good. Get comfortable writing shitty ass sentences and shitty ass words and eventually it just kind of starts getting better. Kind of trust me on that.
00:50:31
Speaker
Highly skilled people at times need that extra bit of help. An accountability coach to see things that can't be seen by the writer. I'd be thrilled and honored to serve you and your work. You know that. Time with me gets you Skype calls, transcripts of the calls, so you can use that for notes, detailed critiques, several back and forths, and me checking in on you to spot you through those grueling sets.
00:50:56
Speaker
email me Brendan O'Mara, not Brendan O'Mara, come on now, Brendan at BrendanO'Mara.com. Hey, and we'll start a dialogue. Be cool. Be cool to help you with your work. Speaking of lifting.
00:51:14
Speaker
A week ago, I was squatting a very lightweight for me, just 205 pounds. I wasn't going for it yet. At the very bottom of the movement on the very first rep, a muscle in my back, my right erector spinae, I think.
00:51:29
Speaker
it pulled so unbelievably bad i really hope it's a muscle but i felt it pull like i felt it stretch it was it was more than just an acute pain it was like dough stretching or something it was oh but i couldn't dump the weight because i didn't have that kind of a squat rackens just in my garage
00:51:50
Speaker
So I had to squat that up and still rack it. So after I've wrenched the muscle, I still had to power that weight up. Oh, it's bad. I kind of collapsed on the ground after that and just kind of rolled around in agony. I wasn't even doing stupid weight. It wasn't even stupid weight, which is all the more frustrating.
00:52:13
Speaker
That said, I'm pretty laid up, limping around a bit. Back injuries don't go away. They just, they hang around. They're so nagging.
00:52:22
Speaker
Anyway, so here we are. Oh, today is my 10th wedding anniversary, the September 25th, can you believe that? That went by in a flash, those 10 years. My goodness, where were we at the time? We got married in Booneville, North Carolina at Rag Apple Lassie Vineyards. We were living in upstate New York at the time, 2010 in Saratoga Springs. 2012, we would have moved to Boston.
00:52:48
Speaker
Lake near Saratoga Springs. From there to Raway, New Jersey in 2014. Lawrenceville, New Jersey, 2016, 2015, 2016. Then Oregon, 2016 till the current day. Crazy, right?
00:53:07
Speaker
Anyway, it's crazy. The person I was 10 years ago is such a distant, different dude. But one thing remains true between the two. If you can do interview, see ya.