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Respectful Politics: Tackling Harassment and Intimidation of Candidates
25 Plays1 month ago
Harassment and abuse directed at political candidates and elected representatives is on the rise — the Electoral Commission found that 70% of candidates experienced abuse or harassment at the 2024 general election. In this episode, Lily Russell-Jones explores the growing crisis and what's being done about it. She speaks first with Hannah Phillips of the Joe Cox Foundation, which campaigns for safer, more respectful political culture in the wake of the tragic murder of MP Jo Cox in 2016. Hannah discusses the many forms intimidation takes, from online threats to in-person harassment, and how it is deterring people — particularly women — from entering politics. Later, former MP Lisa Cameron, who served East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow from 2015 to 2024, shares her personal experience of threats during her time in Parliament and reflects on the government's proposed reforms, including plans to remove candidates' addresses from public records and introduce tougher sentences for those who harass electoral staff. Together, the conversations offer a clear-eyed look at a problem that threatens not only the safety of those in public life, but the openness and health of our democracy.
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Transcript
Introduction to Democracy Discussion
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, you're listening to Observations, a podcast where we talk about democracy, how it works and how it could work better. I'm your host, Lily Russell-Jones.
Electoral Reforms
00:00:19
Speaker
In recent weeks, I've been covering the government's proposed electoral reforms, including plans to lower the voting age to 16 and plans to expand voter ID to include bank cards.
00:00:29
Speaker
Today, I'll be discussing plans to tackle the harassment and intimidation of political candidates.
Harassment in Politics
00:00:35
Speaker
I'm joined first by Hannah Phillips of the Joe Cox Foundation, an organization which campaigns to tackle intimidation and abuse in politics.
00:00:44
Speaker
Hannah, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Later in the episode, we'll be hearing from the former MP, Lisa Cameron, who stepped down in 2024. So Hannah, thinking about harassment and the threat of violence to MPs, do you see this as an issue which is getting worse over time?
00:01:03
Speaker
Yes, unfortunately, the kind of evidence suggests that this is a problem that's getting worse um and has kind of been getting steadily worse in recent years.
00:01:13
Speaker
And the kind nature of the problem, we're understanding the various aspects of the nature of the problem. So obviously what happened to Joe and Sir David Amos was the the most extreme end of the violence and that can happen to you know people, to the lack of representatives. But what we are also seeing is a really kind of regular nature of abuse, intimidation, harassment, a lot of MPs, but also councillors and staff of MPs and councillors and members of Scottish Parliament, the Senate and the Northern Ireland Assembly um can tell us that experiencing some aspect of abuse regularly is now kind of part of the job. And that's something we find really concerning. And we can have up and a longer term vision that participating in politics and um standing for election and serving in public life should not come with the cost of you know experiencing imp abuse intimidation. So, yeah, so the problem is definitely getting worse. And that sort of normalisation seems to be getting getting worse, which is yet that's something that we are really and campaigning against and want to you know put forward that positive vision of a more respectful politics.
Joe Cox Foundation's Mission
00:02:24
Speaker
And I think it's important to talk about the circumstances in which the Joe Cox Foundation was set up because it was after the tragic murder of Joe Cox, a sitting Labour MP in 2016 a constituency surgery event. So could you tell listeners a little bit about the organisation, why it was set up and the kind of work that it does?
00:02:44
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So we were set up to and put forward a positive legacy um of Jo's memory. And we all the work that we do is in her vision that we have more in common than that which divides us. And that that quote is from her maiden speech. And if people can aren't familiar with it, I'd really encourage you know watching the full speech. It's a really lovely speech in itself and sets Joe's kind of values. so We work at the moment on two main areas. so The first in which my colleagues work on is empowering stronger communities, so community cohesion programs. across the UK. And then the work I manage is the respectful politics work. And that is campaigning to address this problem of violence, abuse, intimidation, harassment and towards elected representatives, elected representatives all levels across the yeah UK. And again, that kind of positive vision of a more respectful politics.
Impact of Harassment on Democracy
00:03:42
Speaker
Harassment and threats of violence towards political candidates have become widespread. So the Electoral Commission conducted a survey which found that 70% of political candidates experienced abuse or harassment at the 2024 general election. And a survey by Democracy Volunteers, the organisation Behind the Observations podcast, found last year that 39% of local election candidates faced abuse and threats while campaigning.
00:04:06
Speaker
What form does harassment and intimidation tend to take and do you feel that it's become normalised? Yeah, absolutely. i think, kind of as I say, it takes different forms. So kind of one of the most, it seems like the most regular one is like an online abuse. And that can be you know like direct threats. It can be sexualised rape threats, which tend to be perpetrated against women more and more than men. That and this is what the research and kind of demonstrates. um
00:04:37
Speaker
And there is also the kind of email email abuse, kind of email threats. And also there is kind of in-person harassment, intimidation, whether that's constituency surgeries, political party meetings, or you know when elected representatives are in their local communities, and doing other visits. So it really takes a range of different forms. and I think that is something that's really important to remember.
00:05:00
Speaker
And there's been a lot of focus in the online piece, in which we really welcome that there's been focus and action on that. But it's really important not to forget that there is an in-person kind of aspect of this issue as well. And you mentioned the Electoral Commission research from the ah general election last year, something we were really concerned from that research and to see is that there you know there was the and the prevalence of and kind of incidents of abuse and intimidation, but also the impact on candidates' behaviour. So a lot of candidates chose not to participate in certain aspects of elections, like hustings, because of the risk or perceived risk to their safety. um i think it was women in particular were less likely to canvas alone, which like canvassing alone is not a good practice anyway, but just the kind of change in behavior, um we can do see that as sort of a kind of limiting nature and on kind of participating in in our democracy. and And there's other research that suggests impact something in the pipeline of and people who might be and interested in entering politics and might be really excellent candidates and elected representatives. There was a girl guiding survey a few years ago and that indicated that
00:06:18
Speaker
girls were put off from certain careers, including politics, and because of abuse, they saw high profile women get online. So it's that, you know, it's the prevalence in the current normalization of this abuse, but really also kind of the impact on who will put themselves forward. And kind of, we do see that as a really concerning aspect of kind of our democracy in the future. know, we want a democracy that is open, safe, that encourages people from kind range of backgrounds, ideologies, to participate. But if it's an environment that is safe or is perceived to be unsafe, you know, it will put off people who we really want to represent us in our democracy.
00:06:57
Speaker
Yes, because I was going to ask as my next question, what impact does intimidation and harassment actually have on our democracy and the strengths of our democracy? Yeah, so I think, kind of as I say, the kind of impact on kind of individuals and you know particularly groups not wanting to put themselves up for office, and we do have more evidence and on that, which is really kind of helpful to know that that is happening, because it was kind of a theory for a while that this is probably happening. and But as I say, it's not just that people are being kind of put off running And we see that with some of the research that coming out with women in politics is that it's not necessarily that women are all women are put off completely from running or will exit politics because of kind of the abuse they're facing, though that is certainly happening, but also that they might, you know, not participate in campaign, you know, all of the campaign activities. they might not speak up in certain policy issues. So there's also that kind of chilling impact and on kind of political speech, which is something that is concerning. And that might have a knock-on effect to you know obviously who is representing us and the kind of nature of political debate if people don't feel kind of safe to speak up in certain issues. That is really concerning for the the fundamentals. and of our democracy. And I think as well, obviously, this kind of issue and has some links to kind of kind of trust in democracy and how democracy is operating. You know, and if you if the public aren't seeing their representatives you know out and about, aren't they seeing them talking about certain issues? Because there's that real fear of safety that might have an impact on how the public kind of perceives politicians as being you know trustworthy and accountable. And the Electoral Commission did some other kind of interesting research on public attitudes towards democracy. And they found there was one particularly stat that found that there was some kind of acceptability lot around threatening politicians among certain groups. And that's really concerning. Again, links back to that normalisation of, you know, a democracy in which kind of having kind of a risk at your safety is just been a part of the job, which is something we don't think should be part of kind of our democracy.
Government Proposals for Politician Safety
00:09:10
Speaker
So in terms of thinking about how things could work better, the government has made a number of proposals about how it plans to tackle intimidation and harassment. So could you talk us through some of what's changing? And was there anything from their proposals that really stood out to you?
00:09:24
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So we've just seen actually, i think this week and in the devolution bill, there's going to be a ah policy in there around and making addresses of councillors not appear on council websites as default. And that is something we welcome and and we've been campaigning for a long time. that councillors and also candidates addresses shouldn't be published as default, just because, as I say, the risk of in-person safety, that's becoming and more of a problem. And that is something that the removal of requirement of candidates whom addresses seems to be a proposal. that we're expecting in the forthcoming elections bill. And again, welcome that from the standpoint of and safety. um kind Other changes that have kind of already been made, um the last government introduced a specific police support for local councillors and candidates for the first time under Operation Forward, and the current government has been continuing that, and that is kind of now we kind of implemented throughout the country. And that is something we and others like the local government associations um really welcome because there is that kind of increasing and risk to candidates and elected representatives on a local level. So that's something that we're really supportive of. So and you know in terms of kind of increase in security and of changing these really important administrative issues around elections and how elected representative addresses are ah you know not published by default is something we really welcome. In the expected election bill and the strategy around um kind modern, secure, safe elections, we really welcome the principle to you know making our democracy elections safe.
00:11:13
Speaker
um accountable. and So we really welcome that in principle and all the measures in there are kind of aspects that we really welcome. You know, for example, their and there was kind of proposals around improving guidance for candidates, kind of campaigners and the police. And again, that's something that has already improved in the last in a few years and about kind of improving guidance and the of dissemination of guidance. And I think that's something that we would, um you know, just perhaps go a bit further on you know, there's it really important to have and guidance, it's really important to have codes of conduct, but the dissemination implementation of those is something that does kind of need to be and kind part and parcel of those policies. um And we'd perhaps like to see either in kind of the forthcoming election bill or kind of in other
00:12:05
Speaker
kind of areas of policy conversation or like change is kind of more transparency, account accountability around implementing codes of conduct and on the part of political parties, but also individual candidates. You know, as I say, codes of conduct are really, really important. um But the implementation of those seems to be something that is kind of an ongoing issue for ah candidates, for parties across the ideological spectrum. you know, we hear from elect representatives and kind of other people active in politics that you know the codes of conduct are really good, but they're not always implemented consistently.
00:12:38
Speaker
Thank you. That's really helpful. um I have a few questions. But if we start perhaps with this idea about a code of conduct, would that be to do with the way that MPs treat one another? Because I think something that's an interesting question is just that when you see MPs interact with each other, so one of the most public facing ways that they sort of debate is through Prime Minister's question time every week in this question and answer format. It's not particularly respectful um in terms of the way that MPs speak to each other. There's a lot of shouting. It can get very noisy, point scoring and mocking one another. And do you feel that that perhaps contributes to an environment where political communication can be quite aggressive or that kind of aggressive communication is normalized?
00:13:20
Speaker
Yes, I think it's kind of part of that kind of spectrum of, um yeah, the kind of normalization of, and you know, kind of polarizing, polarized views and again not having and aspects in common to your political opponents. So, you know,
00:13:38
Speaker
we we do feel or do kind of advocate for more kind of respectful and political debate. And you do see that, you do often see that. I think what's kind of an aspect of our political system, of course, is like, well, you as you say, one of the most high profile kind of political events of the week as Prime Minister's questions. But then and a lot of the work gets done in these cross-party committees that are you know are not are not as kind of ah reported on you know publicly, but are really collaborative. So I think you know it's it's ah maybe it's about... you know, kind of shining a light on the kind of a collaborative, respectful work that is happening and also increasing the kind of changing the culture and kind of other aspects of the political kind of system or discourse. And I think there needs to be a balance struck between protecting MPs and making sure that their safety and well-being is protected at all times, but also making sure that they're accessible to scrutiny and also accessible to the public. So I was just wondering how you try to balance those two things, really. And I think that the publishing of addresses is a really good example, because there's an obvious risk to security of and MPs if if the public can just look up their address and know exactly where they live. But at the same time, when it comes to elections, people might want to know that the candidate that's standing in their particular area is from the same area as them and lives in the constituency. So how do you try and balance those two things, really?
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, in terms of the kind of local connection addresses, I think you know our kind of view is that the kind of risk of security is too high to have the specific addresses. There's already on ballots you can have you know have the constituency where this that's listed on the ballot, and I think that's a good balance and between between the two, particularly in election times. So I think you know there's kind of...
00:15:30
Speaker
ah administrative fit fixes or kind of measures like that that can really balance that ah commitment to kind of localism and, you know, security. And and we kind of would perhaps advocate that, you know, addresses aren't published as a norm, unless, so you know, I guess if people really want to, you that that is something that people can do. But I think we do see sometimes, and there has been some research around the 2024 election, that people felt that they needed to publish their addresses to prove that local connection, even though they felt really high risk of their safety. And again, we just don't think that's a, that shouldn't be a choice, right? and But of course, uneasy you know, and there's kind of other balance around ensuring safety of constituency surgeries, which is obviously something ah we and others take incredibly seriously, particularly because of the kind of context in which um Joe was murdered. And again, there's been really kind of,
00:16:24
Speaker
it good changes in terms of how that balance between openness and security is implemented. So, you know, advice the surgery ah address is not going to can of publish everywhere. It's only if you make an appointment and so on. And and there can be plain and cold security or police officers available. So, there you know, there are, there has been changes to increase the security, but to really keep that kind of openness of of our democracy, which is incredibly important. And the two ah don't need to be, you know, in in um kind of opposition to each other. And if you, you know, if you are an elected representative or a candidate who's feeling unsafe, you know, then that, you you might not want to participate openly in democracy. So there, you know, that, and I think the kind of the safety and security and can go hand in hand with ensuring kind of the kind of openness and of our democracy.
00:17:16
Speaker
Okay, and the government has talked about in its sort of summer strategy paper, not publishing the addresses of political candidates, and longer sentences for those who harass political representatives and their staff, and potentially a ban from standing for elections if you harass electoral staff. So i think previously that ban only applied if you harassed and MPs and candidates, but now it will also apply. to electoral staff too. So do you think these proposals go far enough in tackling the problem? I know you said that the Joe Cox Foundation would like to see the government will go further in some areas.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yes, i think I think we'd always like to see kind of more change. And I think, the you know as I say, we really welcome all the measures in the bill, but I think there could be yet more concerted effort to change the kind of whole political ecosystem culture. Because I think in the last few years, there's been really really an excellent progress progress, particularly in the area of security and those kind of preventative and administrative measures.
00:18:15
Speaker
policies that are incredibly important, but we need kind of more change in that kind of to improve the culture around and respectful politics. so and and we do see kind of the, if, you know, the elections bill kind of upcoming as a real opportunity to kind of have a conversation about this, even if there are not specific policies that kind of make it into the and bill, but, you know, have a kind of conversation around, you know, what it means to have kind modern secure, safe, accountable elections and um democracy.
Social Media and Misinformation
00:18:46
Speaker
Yes, let's get on to social media a little bit because that seems to really be part of the problem because and MPs are so accessible online, but also because of the spread of misinformation. So do you think that that's linked perhaps to the rise that we've seen in harassment, threats and abuse against MPs?
00:19:03
Speaker
Yes, it definitely it definitely seems seems to be that there is this, um ah you know, but kind of false information can then increase, you know, a pile on and ah for certain elected representatives. So, of course, it seems to be and part of the problem, and just the speed of the way that information can you know spread. and And, you know, this isn't this isn't unique to abuse to war as elected representatives. We see it, you know, more generally in terms of violence against women and girls online, just the speed in which information and deepfakes and so on can spread is a really alarming kind of aspect of the online space. And we ah are really interested to see how the Online Safety Act continues to be implemented. And particularly this year, I think there are the Ofcom are consulting on the measures that are kind of legal but harmful and that'll be really interesting to see how kind of that is implemented. So we're yeah we're really keen to see how um Ofcom and others can kind of use use their powers and to can of increase and make the an online space more safe for everyone.
00:20:17
Speaker
In a democracy, you want politicians to be accountable to the public. So I wanted to ask, at what point do you feel criticism and scrutiny crosses that line into being harassment and intimidation and abusive?
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good question. i think kind of a simple... um A simple answer would be kind of debating, like robustly debating policies is really something we really welcome, like we want robust debate. But if it's going into really kind of personalised or group based attacks, that is something that kind of is has crossed the line, I think, to abuse intimidation. And then there's kind of really obvious, um more serious forms of, you know, when it's kind of a specific threat and and then a kind of threat to violence or abuse.
00:21:06
Speaker
So I think there, yeah, I think that kind of, and I, there debate the policy, not the person, you know, there's some kind of, I think that's a good kind of turn of phrase that's quite helpful in thinking about, you know, if you're debating online, which is great, you should, and you know, if you're kind of,
00:21:24
Speaker
relying, I guess, on personalised and kind of group-based attacks and not kind of robust policy discussion, that's when it's crossed the line into something that is kind of not kind of respectful or kind of helpful discourse. And that applies to everyone active in politics, I would say.
Positive Cultural Change
00:21:40
Speaker
And in your but opinion, has it become more dangerous over, say, the last 10 years to be an MP or be an elected representative? Yeah, unfortunately, it seems to be the case in terms of the kind of number of kind of incidents that have been recorded and we've seen, um and the kind of two murders that have happened in 2016 with Joe Cox and 2021 with Sir David Amess. And, you know, I think it's important to remember that a lot of people who have who worked with both Joe and David, you know, are still grieving. it was It's not been that long since those two incidents and incidents
00:22:15
Speaker
can necessarily really changed the way you know security has been done you know in parliament and constituency offices and so on and you know it's not just those kind of extreme forms and that have increased but as I say the more kind of regular um experiences of kind of online abuse and others and a lot of elected representatives we speak to you know have had some experience of you know abuse. um The ah parliament did a kind of recent survey and it was a huge percentage of MPs, 96% of MPs had personally experienced one or more instance of threatening behaviour since they got elected 2024. 69% of MP staff indicated that they had experienced one or more forms of abuse in their role. So it does seem to be a huge problem um that kind of we need kind of the whole kind of political ecosystem to address. um I would say that we really maintain a kind of positive vision and we do believe that culture change can happen. I think that's also really important because I think sometimes when I have these conversations, it can feel quite um like it's all doomed. But I do kind of believe that there can be a more positive vision of ah politics and democracy in the future, but it will go to take all of us and like all various political institutions to really commit to that kind of more respectful and safe democracy.
00:23:44
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for your time, Hannah. Do you have any closing thoughts on the topic of political harassment and violence that you'd like listeners to take away? I think something and that might be helpful for listeners to take away is that you can make a change, you know, like, and it can be really small, you know, when you're debating kind of online or debating in the public, think about kind of how you might be debating respectfully. And if you're contacting your elected representative, you know, remember that there's a human in the other end, even if you're writing with a complaint, you know, and something that you disagree with, but just, you know, debate and complain with respect um is something that I'd really recommend. And just to kind of reiterate that and at the Joe Cox Foundation, we really have this long-term vision of a political culture where anyone, regardless of their background, can participate in politics with respect and safely. And, you know, and that kind of robust debate brings us closer in the spirit of Joe's message that we are far more united and are far more in common than that which divides us. Okay, thank you so much for your time, Anna.
00:24:46
Speaker
Great, thank you so much. quoing okay now
00:24:51
Speaker
I'm joined now by the former MP, Lisa Cameron.
Lisa Cameron's Experiences and Advocacy
00:24:55
Speaker
Lisa, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I'm sure intimidation and harassment can be a difficult topic to talk about. So we really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show to talk about it.
00:25:08
Speaker
um In your opinion, do you think that it's becoming more dangerous to be an MP?
00:25:15
Speaker
I think we saw that over the time span that I was in the Parliament, you know, with the traumatic murder of colleagues, david Sir David Amos and Joe Cox.
00:25:29
Speaker
And then, of course, we had the incident in the Parliament um where attackers tried to besiege the Parliament as well. And we were all locked into one of the halls for many hours until the police had this under control and a policeman sadly lost his life.
00:25:45
Speaker
um protecting the parliament's building and the parliamentarians. So I feel a like this has, yeah, gradually become exacerbated over the years since I arrived in the parliament in 2015 until I left in 2024. And I think it's continued along this same trajectory, unfortunately.
00:26:07
Speaker
And Lisa, you are the MP for East Kilbride, Straven and Les Mahago, which I hope I've pronounced correctly in Scotland. You did, well done. Good for nine years.
00:26:18
Speaker
Could you give listeners an overview of your parliamentary career and some of the issues that you worked on while you were there? Yeah, I mean, it's such a privilege to represent the local area where I grew up, went to school.
00:26:32
Speaker
So many of the issues were linked directly with our constituency, of course. Out with that, I spent time on the International Aid Committee, and doing international development work. I was also a member of the Health Select Committee.
00:26:49
Speaker
in the parliament. we During the time, i mean, in parliament, there's so many special interest groups. I was fortunate to be chair of the all-party parliamentary group for dog welfare, and we managed to pass legislation regarding puppy farming, which majority of the public were, you know, really behind and we were so grateful for.
00:27:12
Speaker
ah And also during that time, i was chairing the health group, we went through the COVID pandemic as well. So I was able to fortunately have people come, experts come to speak to the legislators throughout this time about the pandemic and about the different stages we were dealing with.
00:27:35
Speaker
And I'd like to add as well, in 2021, you received a Patchwork Foundation MP of the Year Award. And part of that was because of the work that you did supporting people with disabilities, but also some of the campaigning you did around online abuse. So could you speak to that a little bit as well?
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, it's a real privilege throughout my time in the Parliament to be chair of the all-party disability group in Parliament. During that time, we were able to get off the ground the very first speakers' disability internship programme in the House of Commons, offering paid work experience for people with disabilities. When I arrived, very, very few people with disabilities who came to our group said they could ever have envisioned having any work experience opportunity. And we're really trying to um crack the glass ceiling in a sense and make sure that Parliament was inclusive truly was the People's Parliament. So we were very proud of that work. And yes, um I received a patchwork. award for that and also an award from SENSE, the disability charity. and We also did some work on um countering abuse in Parliament and really trying to help make the Parliament and the parliamentary debates more cross-party and inclusive and to make sure that people felt able to hear their views and um yeah that that Parliament in itself was um a more welcoming environment for everybody.
00:29:07
Speaker
Okay, and could you just talk through some of the experiences of intimidation and harassment that you faced while you were an MP? Well, I mean, so many um aspects to that, really. You know, so from starting in the Parliament quite early in my career, I came as a ah you know as a doctor from the NHS. um And it struck me straight away that some of the things that um people would say to you in person, in the street, or perhaps online, if they ever happened in a hospital, then, you know, people people would have been um
00:29:45
Speaker
probably um breaking the law and dealt with. But because you're an MP, it seemed that that people felt much more able to um to cross those boundaries. i mean, I'm very much an advocate of free speech, of discussion and discussion. debate and of having, you know, robust debates.
00:30:03
Speaker
But some of the aspects, for instance, I had an incident with an individual who had stopped a number of people and then moved on to to myself, who, I mean, I think when they went to court and everything, and he was found to have some health issues himself. So I think some of the underpinning of many of these aspects are linked with mental health.
00:30:29
Speaker
um That was very um distressing for my family. When I moved party as well, I had threats and from national stuff in Scotland who threatened to burn my house down with my children in the house and the park parliamentary security were very robust. They came and they they put steel windows and doors onto the house, but not not pleasant for young children or for family life.
00:30:55
Speaker
um And, you know, we had instances like that. When I was standing for election in 2019, because I was supporting some of the work of Holocaust Education Trust and also the all-party group against anti-Semitism,
00:31:13
Speaker
an individual had put through my letter letter box in the constituency swastikas all over the front of my leaflet defacing it and once again that the police had to become involved. So I would have said that, you know, the discourse became quite abusive over time but certainly was from you know, the the real span of of viewpoints from from left and and right potentially. and So not one particular um group who were responsible at all.
00:31:48
Speaker
And did intimidation and harassment contribute to your decision to step down in 2024?
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I felt by that point that I had achieved a lot of the things I'd set out to do in leading in some of the health work during the pandemic. Also, um you know, some of the work that I had been able to do with a disability group.
00:32:10
Speaker
um I'd also been able to move on and and and chair um a new technology group looking at digital assets and cryptocurrency. I wanted to really kind of take on a new part of my career working in frontier technology. technology which I've been doing for the past uh 80 months two years now um so I I felt I think I felt I'd achieved a lot but yes I think it's always a factor you grow accustomed to it which is a terrible thing to say as part of um being in a public position um I think you know we should always try to to make sure that that the debate can remain civilised and that people have um the ability to speak freely but that it's civilised and it's it's never threatening or violent in that sense.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah. And i when you went into politics, I'm sure that you expected some level of scrutiny and criticism to come from the public, which can be a ah feature of public life. But did the extremity of what you experienced surprise you? Because you obviously had experiences with stalking, but also things like steel windows being put on your doors and it sort of affecting the environment that your children were growing up in as well.
00:33:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that um ability to have ah a private life, in a sense, really diminished during my time in Parliament. and There's also the other aspect of, you know, the Parliament itself, you know, you're working till late hours in the evening. If you're an MP based up in Scotland, you're away from home most of the week so you kind of lose a bit of your family life as well. You miss important birthdays, for votes and um you know special occasions, school sports days, etc. So I think you know um I felt by the point that I was... um
00:34:04
Speaker
finishing up in 2024 that I had you spent 20 years in the NHS in public service and then and almost 10 years in the parliament that that you know I wanted to focus on my family um at that point as well yes and we're going through you know equivalent ear level results and things in our house so it's important I'm there for my daughters as well and to support them through key moments in in their lives as well okay And um research shows time and time again that when we look at things like abuse and harassment and who it affects, it's often women or people from ethnic minorities which are ah more likely to be affected. So could I just talk about how gender factored into your experience? Did you feel like you were facing more abuse than maybe male colleagues or was it different in in the way that it affected you or what was happening?
00:34:57
Speaker
I felt that male colleagues also
Gender, Harassment, and Political Discourse
00:35:00
Speaker
received, you know, abuse too in the parliament. And, you know, we I would never forget the terrible and tragedy um of, you know, who was a good friend and colleague of mine, own particularly on animal welfare issues, Sir David Amos, who lost his life serving the public. So I didn't specifically feel that the issues affecting me were,
00:35:24
Speaker
were gender-related, to be honest. um I felt it was more from maybe different polar and po parts of, you know, the debate on maybe left or right politics, um you know, because I was supporting the all-party group against anti-Semitism, receiving a lot of kind of threats from really extreme left-wing individuals online, et cetera.
00:35:55
Speaker
And then the nationalist aspect of it when I moved party. So I feel like, you know, it maybe was more to do with the political discourse than. gender and in my in my case but I do know from some of the statistics a colleague Joanna Cherry for instance former colleague had a lot of suffered a lot of abuse and I think it's Diane Abbott as well who's suffered a lot of abuse in Parliament and you know that obviously key to that has been perhaps their their gender but in my case I think I felt it was more to do with the politics.
00:36:30
Speaker
Okay, thank you for that answer. And um if we think about in a democracy, it's really important, obviously, that MPs can be held accountable by the public. But where do you feel like the line needs to be drawn between criticism, which is valid and maybe needs to be voiced in the interest of free speech, and something that crosses the line into intimidating or abusive behaviour?
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm an advocate of of free speech, so I am not someone who advocates, you know, someone saying something online and, you know, that resulting in their arrest or anything like that, unless it's something that's actually, you know, inciting violence or cross-examination. an actual line of um legislation legislation in that sense. It's it's advocating violence um against somebody or, you know, threatening violence. So I i think I've got quite a... a high bar on that and also accept that sometimes people say things online that they they don't mean but then you know I did work in the NHS for many many years prior to coming into politics and dealt with people who had quite significant mental health issues who have perhaps acted on some of their thoughts and violent urges so we can always never take these things for granted either and think because something's online that it's not going to escalate so I think it's
00:37:53
Speaker
helpful that parliamentarians have robust security measures, um that they have access to, you know, police support wherever they require it. And I think, you know, it's sort of incumbent and upon us all to make sure that that things are proportionate um and that the public are able to speak freely when they're unhappy about things too, but that we all try to do it in a very civilised way with each other because people are going to have different views from left and right and that's part of a natural democracy. The one thing I would add is, you know, when you leave Parliament, all of a sudden your security measures are, are you know... um
00:38:35
Speaker
diminished so of course they weren't able to take out my steel windows and doors because those had been um put onto to my house um as you know and instead of the the windows and doors I originally had um but as soon as I left parliament things like alarms um personal alarms etc um are all removed and yet you can still be under the similar types of threats for a period of time if people bear grudges for instance over time so I think sometimes perhaps the risk hasn't diminished um but certainly when you leave parliament all of a sudden your security measures for yourself and your family are much diminished. And I remember being told Rishi Sunak had actually asked um the Parliamentary Security Services to contact me because I had highlighted this matter to him. And all they did was really basically say to me that I should press the the and the button that contacts the police on my iPhone, which I thought was, you know, really insufficient, because everybody can do that anyway. It was basically saying I was left, um you know, we were left to ourselves for our own security at that point. And there was no kind of transitionary period, which I think might be something that could be um considered for a future parliamentarians. Okay.
00:39:56
Speaker
And it sounds like you definitely had some extreme experiences with harassment and intimidation while you were in politics, unfortunately.
Finding Common Ground in Political Discourse
00:40:04
Speaker
um But how do you feel like it's impacting upon democracy? Does it affect how you feel about speaking out on certain issues? Do you fear the backlash from the public when you when you think about what issues to bring up in Parliament, for example?
00:40:20
Speaker
I think it's important that politicians feel they can speak on behalf of their constituents and their views in the parliament um and that, you know, there are security measures and that democracy isn't undermined in that sense. um But I think that everyone...
00:40:38
Speaker
is also balancing that with, you know, the real pragmatic risks that people face day to day. And I know that some former colleagues, one had their um constituency office burned down, you know, so I mean, I think that that things have become quite extreme, in a sense, um towards MPAs. um because people have different political political perspectives. I'd like to see more discourse, more focus on making common ground, dealing obviously with the issues that impact the country, because we we have to kind of deal with many of those up front. And we have to be able to speak freely about them in order to do that. But I do think there has to be a kind of middle road for that in a sense that we can collectively deal with those issues.
00:41:27
Speaker
So I think, yeah, I did experience a lot. Would I recommend going into politics to my children um after having had some of those experiences? Possibly not, which is a shame in a sense, because I always remember when was in poor Parliament, you you were given a kind of... fun update on how many women had been elected. And when I was elected, I think it was still under 400 women had been elected throughout the history of the Parliament. So we need to have more um more women in Parliament, more people with disabilities in Parliament, more of our veterans coming forward to be in Parliament.
00:42:06
Speaker
um And we need to make sure that that Parliament is an inclusive place, that people feel able to air their views and and to try to carry forward the best policies collectively for the country. yeah Okay.
00:42:18
Speaker
And I think that leads into a bit of a discussion on what the government has said they're planning to do. So they've set out reforms over summer um for electoral reform to tackle the intimidation and harassment of candidates. They want to do things like saying that candidates won't have to publish their addresses anymore if they stand for election. They want to indute introduce harsher sentencing. for people who harass political candidates. And they've also said that people who harass or intimidate electoral staff, as well as MPs and MP staff, won't be able to stand themselves for election over a certain period of time afterwards. Do you think those are steps in the right direction? Do you think they go far enough?
00:42:59
Speaker
I think it depends on the kind of threshold for the harassment as well. I wouldn't like it to undermine the ability to have robust debate, um you know, with the but between the public and um those who are standing as candidates. I think it's definitely a great thing not to have to publish your address because clearly, you know, if there is somebody who has, you know, ill intention towards you, having your address there on the ballot for every single person is really ah security risk issue. and makes pragmatic sense to me that that should be shifted. and So yeah, once again, I think it it is about having that balance um where people don't feel um that if they said perhaps the wrong thing without being threatening or violence or anything very extreme that that you know they could be arrested, which I don't agree with, um that that because I think the public do have to air concerns and and raise the issues that they feel strongly about. um
00:43:58
Speaker
But at the same time, i do feel that, you know, we need to find a kind of reasonable ground for that, where and those who want to stand as candidates don't feel intimidated out of standing as a candidate. And I know one of the...
00:44:14
Speaker
Former councillors in our area actually had his home burned, dying petrol bombs when he was a councillor, and he left politics because of that reason. So we really can't have these extreme cases you know occurring. They're occurring all too commonly, so I think taking steps is a good thing. Obviously, the devil is always in the detail, and making sure that there's a balance is important.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah. And do you have any advice for other MPs um or political candidates who are facing harassment or threats such as you did while you were sitting MP? Well, there's actually a very good service in the Parliament now. and It's like a kind of one-to-one service where you can speak if you have any sort of an emotionally upsetting incidents where you've been threatened, etc., and you can speak in confidence. um So, I mean, I think utilising that service was certainly very helpful for me. and I did that when I moved party and, you know, had a lot of support from... the service provided by Parliament there in order to manage the transition and the risks associated with that. So I feel that's like that's a good development. There's also obviously the security measures, making sure that you you have the risk assessments that you need and and if there are any and changes to risk that you feel are important to be able to have that direct line to um the local security services and the parliamentary security services. And I know that Speaker of the Parliament was really taking it very seriously, that i'm members of the Parliament and that all of the staff should feel secure in the workplace. um So I think some of those measures have been taken forward as well through his office. so I think things have improved and to utilise, you know, the services that are there. I think they should also look again, perhaps, at a transition period for MPs who are leaving Parliament, especially, you know, nowadays politics is shifting so quickly. um
00:46:24
Speaker
And, you know, MPs, I think the average lifespan of an MP is about seven years now, which is is quite short. So in terms of managing the transition, if there if there are still risks they don't disappear overnight when you no longer become an MP sometimes they're ongoing and I think Parliament could perhaps step up and manage those risks better.
00:46:45
Speaker
And you said that you didn't feel like you would necessarily recommend to your daughters that they became MPs if they were interested in going into politics but do you think that this issue of intimidation and harassment and abuse that MPs are facing is stopping women from getting into politics?
00:47:03
Speaker
I think it probably stops a lot of people from getting into politics. um Yeah, I'm sure, I'm certain that it stops on women coming into politics. um I think it probably stops people from many backgrounds coming into politics because of the concerns they might have.
00:47:21
Speaker
about the aspect of not having the same level of private life um and being the subject of abuse to such and vitriol such a level. I mean, I went through the Brexit wars as well, which was another another aspect of, the and you know, parliamentary life where it was such a dichotomy of views coming together that that people find difficult to to come together and look for solution focused results so yeah i'm sure it puts people off i think parliament has to really put more in place to support those who want to stand and parties have you know it's incumbent on them to um make sure that they put everything in place to make sure that people feel able to stand and particularly i know from working in the disability group that even
00:48:14
Speaker
practical things stop people standing as well so of perhaps it it there was a study that showed it cost people more to stand for parliament if you had a disability because of perhaps transport costs and different things to get to meetings etc and as a candidate and so that the Even the cost can preclude people from different backgrounds coming into Parliament. So we need to look at all of those issues in the round and make sure that, yes, we can have this very robust debate, but that intimidation doesn't stop and democracy moving forward and also that where people um who have you know really served, perhaps veterans or um people with disabilities, want to contribute to policymaking, that we try to facilitate that.
00:48:59
Speaker
Thank you so much for your time, Lisa. That's been really helpful. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. You've been listening to Observations.
00:49:10
Speaker
I've been your host, Lily Russell-Jones. Intimidation and harassment are a growing problem for MPs and political candidates. Both our speakers talked about the way in which violence can undermine democracy by making people involved in politics feel unsafe, deterring people from getting involved in politics and silencing debate.
00:49:30
Speaker
However, solutions which aim to protect the security of MPs have to be balanced with the need for politicians and elected representatives to remain accessible to the public and open to scrutiny.
00:49:41
Speaker
If you want to share your views on intimidation and harassment in political life, you can email us atvations dot podcast at at democracyvolunteers.org. Or you can leave us a comment on YouTube.
00:49:54
Speaker
You can find us at Observations Podcast with no spaces. Thanks very much for listening.
00:50:10
Speaker
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00:50:24
Speaker
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