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Episode 018: Katelyn James - How I would market a business in 2018
173 Plays6 years ago
Today’s guest—who for many needs no introduction—is photographer Katelyn James. Katelyn started her photography business during her junior year of college and since then has shot hundreds of weddings alongside her husband Michael, and been featured in national publications such as The Knot, Southern Weddings, BRIDES and others.
Beyond that, Katelyn has influenced the wedding photography industry in so many different ways—especially when it comes to marketing one’s business. So it makes sense that thousands of photographers have enrolled in her online courses and her newest membership program: KJ All-Access, where one gets behind-the-scenes access to real weddings, engagements, and portrait shoots.
During this interview, I wanted to discuss how Katelyn would market a business if she was starting one today. We reflect on how she built her business, why she started blogging both her professional work and stuff from her personal life, the importance of networking, mistakes she sees business make today, and her approach to marketing.
The highlights:
03:30 The first time I met Katelyn
09:01 How Katelyn started her business
13:56 What drove inquiries early in her business.
19:53 How Katelyn decides what to share of her personal life.
24:19 Where she would start if she was building a business today.
30:55 The value of blogging today.
32:10 The most effective way to approach networking.
33:52 The power of building relationships within your industry.
38:56 Where Katelyn focuses her social media efforts.
40:34 Are email lists worth it?
43:15 The benefits of building a community around your business.
50:58 Choosing to focus on your own business and not what everyone else is doing.
55:54 What marketing mistakes Katelyn sees people making.
1:02:21 What you need to do if you want to raise your prices and have longevity in your business.
Katelyn started her professional photography journey as a Junior in college and was shooting 25+ weddings annually within her second year. After growing her business and gaining recognition in national publications such as Professional Photographers Magazine, The Knot, Southern Living Weddings, Southern Weddings and multiple other online publications such a Style Me Pretty, BRIDES, Inspired by This, Real Simple, etc. She then began teaching and coaching photographers from all over the country and internationally. In 2015 she was named “Top Ten Educators to Watch” by Rangefinder Magazine and has had the honor of speaking at conferences such as WPPI, United, Creative at Heart, Local PPA meetings, The Rising Tide Summit, The Reset Conference, The Pursuit Conference, Making Things Happen, The Connect Retreat, Blink and more!
Katelyn hosts 2-day workshops throughout the year at her home in Richmond, VA. In 2012 Katelyn was joined by her husband Michael and they are officially a husband/wife team. Since joining forces, Katelyn and Michael average 12-15 weddings annually while teaching thousands of photographers through their online courses and KJ All Access monthly membership program! They are parents to their daughter Everly, their son James in heaven and are puppy parents to Bokeh, the Bichpoo! They are passionate about traveling, home design, & spending time dreaming and brainstorming with their closest friends!!
See the episode notes at https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-katelyn-james-episode-18 for links to resources.
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Transcript
Staying True to Yourself for Success
00:00:06
Speaker
If I want people to look at our life and our business and what we've done for 10 years and recognize that even though the world's changed and the internet has changed, there's one thing that has remained the same and it's that whatever your God-given gifts are personality-wise, you're always going to win with that. There's no way that that won't work for you.
Podcast Introduction: Meet Davy Jones
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
Caitlin James' Photography Journey
00:00:40
Speaker
Today's guest, who for many needs no introduction, is photographer Caitlin James. Caitlin started her photography business during her junior year of college and since then has shot hundreds of weddings alongside her husband Michael and has been featured in national publications such as The Knot, Southern Weddings, and Brides Magazine.
00:01:00
Speaker
Beyond that, Caitlin has influenced the wedding photography industry in so many different ways, especially when it comes to marketing one's business. So it makes sense that thousands of photographers have enrolled in her online courses and in her newest membership program, KJL Access, where one gets behind-the-scenes access to real weddings, engagement, and portrait shoots.
00:01:22
Speaker
During this interview, I wanted to discuss how Caitlin would market a business if she was starting one today. We reflect on how she built her business, why she started blogging both her professional work and stuff from her personal life, the importance of networking, mistakes she sees businesses make today, and her approach to marketing.
00:01:42
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at Davey and Krista for the resources that we mentioned during this episode. And I'd like to hear from you about what kind of content you'd like to see on the Brains That Book podcast as we move forward. I'd also like to know what kind of episodes or what episodes you've enjoyed so far and why. So to leave your feedback, head on over to the Davey and Krista Facebook page and send us a message. Now onto the interview.
Reflecting on Caitlin's Business Path
00:02:18
Speaker
Well, Caitlin, welcome to the show. I'm so glad that we are finally able to do this. Me too. It's been a long time coming. Yeah, for sure. And when I was brainstorming topics and questions, and that's the thing about brainstorming topics for this conversation in general, I mean, how long has your business been in existence? This is crazy. It's been in existence since
00:02:41
Speaker
Well, 2010, so I mean, actually, 2008 is when it actually started. I feel like it really wasn't a business until 2010, because that's when I really started making money. Important for any business. Yes. It's coming up on a decade this August.
00:02:59
Speaker
That's incredible. And because of that, there's just there's so many things that you could talk about. I mean, I could pick I think any business topic and you could have spoken to it. So that was one of the challenging
Davy's First Impression of Caitlin
00:03:10
Speaker
things. I'm really excited to talk with you about how if you were sort of business today, you know, how you would go about marketing that business. So I'm really excited to dig into that with you. But also while I was thinking about this, this interview and just preparing for it, what came to mind was the very first time
00:03:27
Speaker
that I met you. Oh, no. And I don't even know. I don't know. This is this is fun. I don't even know if you would remember this. But it was it was back at Natalie Frank's wedding. All right, because you shot her wedding. You and you and Michael.
00:03:44
Speaker
And, you know, I mean, Krista was the maid of honor. And so Krista and Natalie are really excited. And I knew, I knew of you, but
Rising Tide Society and Caitlin's Reputation
00:03:53
Speaker
we had never met before. And, you know, Krista and Natalie just go on, you know, they're so excited to have you, you know, be shooting the wedding, right?
00:04:00
Speaker
And so we get to the wedding day, and I don't think we ever really formally met there, but here's what I remember is, I think it was at the reception, Krista, you were taking a picture of Krista and I think Natalie together, and one of my friends who was also there photobombed the picture.
00:04:20
Speaker
And I remember you looking at me, and it was with this look that was both simultaneously sweet and terrifying, all right? Basically like you need to get out of my shot right now. This is Natalie Frank's wedding. Don't mess this up. Yeah, this is, well, you know, and, you know, in your defense, it was, it was one of the, it was a photo that definitely shouldn't have somebody photo about, right? The bride and the maid of honor, you know? So I definitely deserved it. That's hilarious. I don't even remember that.
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah, I just remember thinking of myself. But I want to go back and find
Authenticity in Personal and Professional Life
00:04:52
Speaker
it. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that probably got called, you know, that what that picture. I mean, the next picture you took of them without me in it, I'm sure it made it. But that picture probably got called. And I just remember thinking myself, oh, man, that was
00:05:05
Speaker
That was kind of scary. I feel like that's a look maybe you reserve for Michael. It's like a typical parent look. I wonder if you use it with Evy if it's evolved into that where only the person that's being looked at knows that anything's wrong.
00:05:22
Speaker
It's kind of the look that I give Michael when I'm like, move that flash, move it, move the flash. I know the look exactly that you're talking about and I'm so sorry you experienced it in the context and that was our first interaction. No, I was looking back just kind of impressed. But anyways, so moving on, a couple years go by, Natalie, Krista, Huey and I have founded the Rising Tide Society.
00:05:48
Speaker
And again, by then I definitely knew who you were, and you had this great reputation, and I always joke around with Tyler Harrington because if you listen to his interview, even on my podcast, but I also think on his podcast, you're on his podcast, he talks about how he was a KJ fangirl, right?
00:06:08
Speaker
He still kind of claims that title, which I think is very endearing. Yeah, he's very proud of that. But I feel like I'm just not that kind of person. And so Chris and Natalie go on and on about you. I'm like, guys, OK, listen, chill. I'm sure Caitlin's great, but you need to chill a little bit.
00:06:27
Speaker
I'm very boring in real life actually. No, no, no, no. So I remember we were starting the first RTS Summit and we had never really dealt with webinars before. And so we weren't sure how we were going to execute it. And so we were kind of brainstorming like, who can we reach out to to help us with this? And we ultimately reached out to you. And this was really my first, I think, true interaction with you.
00:06:55
Speaker
And I remember getting off that call with you and turning to the girls and being like, OK, now I get it. You know, now I get why people love you so much just because. And I think this is true of both you and Michael, that when you're around people, you're just so present. You know, it's I mean, you guys, I think you could characteristic, you know, I mean, you guys are definitely busy people. But when you're interacting with people, you just it just feels like, you know, you're the only person being being spoken to.
00:07:25
Speaker
And I think that's a gift that both you and Michael have. Oh, thank you. So, you know, is that is in that moment that I kind of, I kind of got, okay, this is why, you know, because I think the Caitlin that we see on Instagram and through the blog and, you know, all these different channels is the Caitlin that you get in real life. So always the goal. And so it's so encouraging that that is what
00:07:52
Speaker
people experience because you don't know if that's what people experience because you can't know that so that's thank you that's a that's good to hear well that has to be i think that's a good segue into what we're talking a bit about today because to me from an outsider looking in that has to be at least a little bit of the reason why your businesses have been so successful it's just because you come across in a way that's true to yourself in all that you do marketing your businesses so i'm excited to dig into that with you
00:08:22
Speaker
Me too. I'm glad you mentioned that because as I was thinking about this, the foundation of what I feel like you're probably going to ask me comes down to really that. We're starting well. Everything is going to be okay. I can feel it.
00:08:37
Speaker
Good deal,
Transition from Photography to Education
00:08:38
Speaker
good deal. So we do start every interview off with just, you know, I want to hear about how you started your business back in 2008, you know, when you weren't making any money and then how that transitioned into making money in 2010 and so on. So I want to hear about that. And I'm sure listeners do too, because I'm sure a lot of people listening already know you and already familiar with you. But for those who aren't, you know, where'd you get started?
00:09:01
Speaker
Oh, gosh, that's a good question. And I feel like every time I answer this question, I give a different explanation because there's so much that has happened in a decade of business. Yeah. But basically, you know, the basics are I started in college. I was a junior and I realized I had an internship being a graphic designer. I was in an office in a cubicle and I'm like,
00:09:24
Speaker
Oh my gosh, this is what my day in and day out is going to look like. I'm going to pack a lunch. I'm going to get there. I'm going to have a boss that's changing everything that I designed. I don't like this. I want to work. So I started doing photography and I honestly, I started before the wave hit right before the wave of tons of people getting into photography because of the internet and because of how easy it was to market online.
00:09:50
Speaker
I just kind of got in before that big wave came and so started growing the business, started shooting weddings. Michael eventually joined me a couple of years after we got married. We became a full blown husband and wife team and then we transitioned into starting kind of our second business off of Caitlyn James photography which was Caitlyn James education and that was
00:10:14
Speaker
A huge turning point because I started realizing as much as I love serving clients as a wedding photographer. I really loved educating people and allowing people to see like I can do this too like I can be a photographer too and I can make this happen for myself, so Caitlin James education was born from Caitlin James photography and now honestly we educate more than we shoot and that has been a
00:10:41
Speaker
I think something has come about as we have become parents. The evolution of our business just continues to move forward. I feel like I have a picture of what's coming next, but every time we enter every two years, I'm like, wow, I didn't see that coming. That's what I'm excited about.
00:11:00
Speaker
We're in a really cool place where we get to help people, but we still have 10 to 12 clients a year that we're shooting weddings. I'm still in the grind of being a wedding photographer, but it's not the shooting 40 to 50 weddings a year like it used to be. I'm glad we did that hustle phase where we basically just worked because I learned a lot during that phase.
00:11:22
Speaker
and I think it set us up for where we are now. So, yeah. So, going back in time, back to 2008, 2010, when did you learn that photography was going to be a business for you? You know, like, when did you learn, like, when did you have that, the flip switch from just it being something you like to do, to being, oh, I have a steady stream of clients now, this is a thing.
Realizing Photography as a Business
00:11:44
Speaker
Right, I think for me, honestly, it's when I started, this is gonna sound dumb,
00:11:51
Speaker
When I first started getting, like, checks that were, like, four digits, you know, like, when I got a deposit that wasn't $250, it was, like, $750, and then I got a final payment for $1,200, I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, this could legitimately, like, this could be a thing. And I honestly, I started, when I graduated college, I think it really hit me that, like, this was going to be my thing. This is what I want to try to do.
00:12:18
Speaker
when i was like you know what i'm not gonna apply for jobs i think i'm gonna i think i'm gonna just graduate college and my goal was to make i have it on a post-it note that i wrote in college to make twenty four thousand dollars a year that's what i wanted to make and i made that within my first couple years of business you know not combined i mean each year is twenty something
00:12:39
Speaker
But that's so funny to me like that was my goal. I just need to make 20 grand after expenses That's my goal and and when I did that during college. I think that's what I realized I could actually do this and So yeah, it was when I decided my college roommates are applying for all these jobs and internships And I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing
00:12:58
Speaker
and hope that it works that it's so funny you say that because i remember when christa started in photography as well and it was a similar feeling where. All the sudden she's making over thousand dollars per wedding and i'm thinking to myself man if you shot. 30 of these a year then you're like over thirty thousand dollars and as a teacher i mean i mean first of all i'm like i'm not gonna diminish twenty or thirty thousand dollars that's a lot of money.
00:13:23
Speaker
but at the same time as a teacher i mean i was making probably forty five thousand dollars a year so thirty thousand dollars a year i mean that was almost my salary by doing this you know at the time you know it kind of the side hustle yes so exactly i mean it's just this incredible i think light bulb moment like oh my gosh there's there's so much potential here.
Blogging and Personal Stories in Business Growth
00:13:41
Speaker
But going back to as it takes off, what was driving the growth of your business? Was it just that you would shoot a wedding and other people would hear about you through word of mouth? What was driving those inquiries?
00:13:56
Speaker
So, I think what's important is, I remember back when I started, I followed Jasmine Starr. She was literally one of the only photographers. Her, Jessica Clare Becker, which, some of these people don't even, I don't even, I don't know if he shoots anymore, but there were like five people that I followed blogs and they were the only people I could really find.
00:14:17
Speaker
that actually blogged somewhat regularly. So I just followed what Jasmine was doing. I started blogging all the time and I would sit in like communications class and I'd look across the room and there'd be like three girls looking at my blog post. I found out from another girl in another com class like, oh this girl's getting in, she started her own business. She's doing a thing called blog. And so the blog took off because
00:14:42
Speaker
there wasn't a lot of people to compete with. And so I started creating content that way. And little did I know I was only doing that because I couldn't afford to pay for paid advertising. That's the reason. But the cool thing is, is that I literally, that was like the jackpot because I grew to number one SEO wise. I mean, if you look for Virginia wedding photographer, even though I haven't been blogging recently, I'm still like on the front page and that really set me up for success. But,
00:15:10
Speaker
I think the fact that I was sharing the way that I was, I wasn't busy enough because I was a full-time college student. I wasn't busy enough to share professional work every day. What happened was I started sharing about my life. I got to fill in the blank somehow, so I'm going to share about my life. That was another jackpot moment where I thought, I'm just trying to get by, but really it was genius because
00:15:35
Speaker
Not only were people not blogging as much, they really weren't blogging and sharing their personal life. So people would get to know me online, then they'd meet me in real life, and surprisingly, I think I matched what they hoped that I would be, and then it was just this natural, like, oh, you gotta work with her. And I didn't realize that was happening until years later. I'm like, why is this going so well? I don't know why this is working.
00:16:03
Speaker
And I honestly, it has so much to do with the way that we made people feel. And I was thinking about this whole conversation earlier today and I was thinking about how I really think the way that we approach making friends, you know,
00:16:19
Speaker
is the same way that we should approach business running. Like if you go out on a double date, you and Krista with a new couple, you never met them before, but you're trying to have more community or something, you know, you go out to eat, you're sitting at the restaurant, you're going to hope that that client gets in the, or that client gets in the car and says to their spouse or their significant other like, Oh, that was so fun. Like I loved hanging out with them. Maybe, maybe text them, see if they want to go like to a baseball game next week.
00:16:47
Speaker
I want engaged couples to leave their engagement session being like, that was so much better than I thought. Like I loved hanging out with them and that is how I've run my business. And everything comes back to how you make people
Balancing Personal and Professional Sharing
00:17:01
Speaker
feel. And there are traits to being a people person that I think are naturally ingrained and it just comes natural. But I've learned through our posing course, anyone
00:17:11
Speaker
can be trained to know how to make people feel loved and cared about. And business and friendships go hand in hand and I just wish more people knew that. So I think that's why we grew.
00:17:27
Speaker
I guess it generated that persona, not that it was a persona, but you communicated that, rather, through your blog back in 2008, 2010. You're not only blogging weddings at that point, but you're blogging personal stuff as well. Do you still blog? I mean, you still blog personal stuff, though. So it seems like, to a certain extent, your strategy hasn't changed all that much. I mean, you still blog personal stuff. Do you still think that there's value in that?
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, um, I honestly think that that is the only thing that has lasted. You know, the blog is not what it used to be. The blog used to be people, people would refer about my blog as the blog to other people who have blogs. I'm like, wait, wait, it's, they don't know what you're talking about. That's how big of a deal it was like, Oh, you're going to be on her blog. And, and now it's not really like that anymore because the internet has changed.
00:18:23
Speaker
Um, but the thing that is the same is the style of content that I'm sharing. And I think that's what's important. Um, you know, we just recently went through a hard season, lost our son. And I realized like, gosh, the internet is desperate for realness and vulnerability.
00:18:41
Speaker
not for the sake of getting response, but for the sake of recognizing that someone else's story can impact someone else's life in a really positive way. Whether you're sharing something that's heartbreaking but hopeful at the same time, like our recent story, or whether you're sharing things
00:18:57
Speaker
like what I shared a couple days ago, pictures of our family life from the last six months, just pictures of our daughter. People relate to that because I have to remember the people that I'm trying to bring into my business, the only thing that I can relate to them is that I'm a real human being. I'm not just a wedding photographer because if I only shared my work, then I'm only giving one category of connection for people to be able to resonate with me.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean I don't think there will ever be a time in my life where I don't share who I am personally on the blog or through Instagram or through any whatever other social media comes out in the next decade. I will always share that part of my story because I know that like personality wins. It always wins even though
00:19:49
Speaker
the method of where we're sharing it has changed so much. So how do you decide because I think how do you decide what to share personally? Because I gotta imagine that there are some areas of one's life that don't make it onto the blog or don't make it onto social media. So how do people navigate that?
00:20:09
Speaker
What's too much to share? Do you have, I mean, this is gonna sound silly, but do you have like a formula? I mean, that sounds so contrived, but do you have some formula for how much personal stuff you share to how much of your work that you share? Because I gotta imagine too that even though people might fall in love with you and your personality, they also want to know that when you show up on their wedding day, that you're going to be able to do a good job, right?
00:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, are you going to show up and bring your 16-month-old? That's all I see you post. No, I think that's a great question. I think there's a lot of filters that I use. One, I feel like you can share pretty much any part of your life, even the hard stuff, if you share struggles victoriously. We felt pretty hopeless losing a baby at points, but I would never share something unless I'd gotten to a point where I'm like, hey, this sucks.
00:21:03
Speaker
And this is what's really, really hard. But there's something hopeful that I'm learning. In all the pain, there's a little bit of hope. And there's victory. And I can share that victory. Because honestly, I think people want social media. I think they want it to be inspiring, entertaining, and helpful in some way to take their life to a next level, to learn something.
00:21:26
Speaker
And if it's none of those things, then it's either something just self-promoting, something that's gonna make people jealous, or something that's just self-seeking, and that's a real big turnoff to people. And so for me, we share the wins and the hard parts of our life, but only in a way that it's gonna help people and not just, you know, you don't wanna be the negative Nancy of Instagram. So I think that's a filter I use. I also think that,
00:21:52
Speaker
You know, we share personal things about our life. We have to balance it with making sure that we still have professional posts. When I look at my grid, you know, on Instagram, or if I think about blog posts, now I want to make sure that it's not just a list of personal posts and like, Oh yeah, I forgot. I'm also wedding driver. Here's an engagement session. Um, so I do try to balance that. And I think that, um, I think ultimately though, it's important to think about the season that you're in, you know,
00:22:20
Speaker
We have such a personal brand that people actually, after we lost James, our son back in May, um, I had to postpone tons of shoots and I picked back up as soon as, you know, I was off of recovering and like kind of maternity leave. I shot like six engagement sessions in two weeks and I blog really quickly. So all of a sudden people having like engagement session, engagement session. I had so many people in tune with like the series of
00:22:47
Speaker
events that just happened that people would email me and be like, Caitlin, I really hope you're not doing too much. I hope you're not pushing yourself too much. And I'm like, isn't it interesting that people are so engaged with like the series of events in our life that they're worried because all of a sudden I went from being super personal to super professional.
00:23:06
Speaker
People pay attention to that and I have to be careful about it that I don't do too much of one thing. But honestly, I ride the waves as they happen and this year was a lot of personal and then we just recently kicked back into professional. But it's interesting, I'll blog an engagement session after that hard season and I started the blog post with like
00:23:27
Speaker
Lot of you know that we haven't been around professionally the last couple months and here's why and you can read the post here about our story And it was never like this I'm trying to hide something. Yeah, it wasn't a surprise to people. Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know if that helps I don't know if that answers that question, but I do think there's filters and I think that the biggest filter I find people need to know what's too much to share and
00:23:52
Speaker
I need to make sure Evie can read this stuff and I would be proud of it years from now and I want to make sure I'm positive and encouraging without sugarcoating the hard stuff of life. So if I can share it victoriously even though it's hard and if I'm going to be proud of it decades from now and it's not going to embarrass my kids years from now, I think it's okay and I think it actually makes me human the more that I can share.
00:24:17
Speaker
within those parameters. Sure. So if we were going to fast forward in time, so let's say the Caitlin James brand as we know it doesn't exist, which that's hard to think about just because of the ways in which you've influenced our industry.
Modern Marketing Strategies
00:24:33
Speaker
But let's use our imagination and try to say that, okay, Caitlin James brand doesn't exist and you wanted to build a photography business today. Yeah. Where would you even start?
00:24:45
Speaker
Oh, that's so hard. I know. That's such a broad question, but I was just going to say, I, I have thought about this before, even before I knew this call was coming and I have thought to myself how, um, panicky I might have felt because there is this sense when you're like a go getter mindset, like that's how I'm wired. I'm like, Oh yeah, we're going to do this. Um, I feel like there would be a sense of panic that could set in because there's so much to overcome. Like,
00:25:15
Speaker
There's so much competition. And when I started, I didn't have that. Or I didn't feel that in the same way that I think I would feel if I started right now. And so I just want to put that out there. It's definitely hard. And I want to put a caveat in there because it wasn't as if there were no other photographers when you... And I think, again, that speaks to the way in which you built your business is that you've changed the industry, I think, in so many different ways or affected change in the industry in so many different ways.
00:25:37
Speaker
Because I'm sure there were plenty of photographers, but I think that there weren't, like you said, there weren't a ton of photographers who were blogging in general, blogging a mix of personal stuff and professional stuff. So I think the way in which you went about your business made it feel like maybe there was less competition than there actually was. Yes. It was almost like I was paving my own way.
00:26:04
Speaker
And honestly, the hard part about that, um, that I had to just kind of like decide which way I was going to approach it was when I started teaching other people how to do exactly the same thing. Because all of a sudden it wasn't just, Oh, book Caitlin because.
00:26:20
Speaker
She's super personable, and you can't get to know any of these other photographers, really. They don't share anything. And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, no, no. There's seven other photographers in my area that are killing it. And I taught them some of this stuff, and I can't take credit for their growth. But I knew that I had taught them
00:26:38
Speaker
some things and I'm like, well now I just create a competition. And I can either be bitter about that, but if I'm gonna be bitter about that, then I have no right to be an educator. Because you can't be an educator and then not like the fact that what you're teaching is working and now you have competition. So instead I just had to view it as, you know what, I know that there's only one me. So I'm gonna dive in deeper to the fact that there's only one me and I'm gonna keep sharing the heart out of
00:27:06
Speaker
Caitlin and Michael's story and who I am, what I love, what I don't love, what I'm passionate about, what I'm not and I'm gonna hope that that stands firm as a foundation for my business and I don't really have competition and that's exactly what happened. So yeah, I definitely, did I answer that question again? Well just if you were to start today, what marketing channel would you focus on? Would it be, would you, I'm sure at some level you would have a blog, right? But would that be your biggest focus?
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think it would be. But like I said before, I think the style of what I would share would be the same. You know, the content would be the same to market even if I started today from scratch. But the method in which I shared it probably wouldn't be as much focused on everyone get to the blog. It would be more so through Instagram.
00:27:56
Speaker
which is more readily accessible. People can check in and see more of what it's like micro blogging in a way, you know, but I would still blog for the sake of SEO. I would want a place to archive a portfolio of my work to show that I'm busy and that I'm thriving. Even, you know, Instagram can do that in a way, but not the same way. I want, I would want to have a blog to highlight my couples and to write more about them than just, you know, a paragraph on Instagram.
00:28:25
Speaker
and to save that for families to be able to go and visit. But, I think it would still be worth it, it just wouldn't be as powerful as it used to be. And I think it's important for me to recognize that, because it's very easy to, when you experience the growth from a blog like I have, I remember a couple years ago, someone said, like, Caitlin, you gotta admit blogging's not the same. And I think I was having a little bit of denial, and, no, no, no, it's still the same, it's still great. But honestly, it has changed, and it's not as vital to my business as it used to be,
00:28:55
Speaker
So if I was starting over, I think that what I would do is I would focus on marketing in a way that allowed what has worked in the past, which is personality, client service, the way that I make people fall in love with our relationship between me and other people, whatever I'm doing to make people love me.
00:29:16
Speaker
I would stick to that, but I would do it through networking and I would do it through other forms of social media. Blogging would be the secondary thing that I use social media to push people towards. It's almost like, meet me this way, fall in love with me through blogging. I think that that would probably be my approach, whereas if I was starting a business where I was selling something online, maybe I wasn't trying to be a wedding photographer, then I would approach paid advertising online.
00:29:45
Speaker
because it would be an online business that I needed to get, I need to funnel some people in my direction so I could actually reach them. Whereas now I was thinking like, gosh, how do I know that there are new photographers in Richmond where I live? Um, and the answer to that is because I've talked to other people who have worked with them and they're like, Oh, have you heard so and so she's new, but she's great. And I'll look her up on Instagram. When I find her on Instagram,
00:30:08
Speaker
Something she's posted is engaging enough for me to remember her. And then when people email me, they're like, hey, I can't afford $10,000 for a photographer. Do you have someone more in the $2,500 range? I'm like, oh yeah, so and so just told me about this new girl in Richmond. And I send her to, so there's a lot of things that happened there. One, that person, that new person made themselves available to be able to be known by one of my friends, had a great experience in person with her. Then I found her online and found her to be personable and I referred her.
00:30:38
Speaker
And I think honestly, if I was starting, that's how I would win at creating a business now is the networking side. And that would be almost that sponsored by or supported by a great online presence. So.
00:30:54
Speaker
I think, is that an answer? And there's so much to go through there. One, I'm glad that you mentioned blogging just in general. It's definitely not what it used to be and nothing is, right? Everything evolves. But what's interesting about SEO and Google search traffic, right, is that we've come pretty much, we've come kind of full circle in that for the first time since 2014, Google search traffic has outpaced social media referral traffic.
00:31:22
Speaker
which I thought was really interesting. I think if I asked 10 people like, hey, what do you think the biggest source of referral traffic is nowadays, people would say social media. But the truth is that in 2017 at least, it was Google. So I still think that blogging has a place. And also I think of what I hear you say is just there's this almost story that clients go through from getting to know you in that handshake through, as you put it, falling in love with you through
00:31:52
Speaker
the blog and different channels are meant for different things. For networking specifically, where should people get started? Because I think there's a lot of people that terrifies them, like showing up and handing out business cards or something like that. Like how would you recommend somebody go about networking? Okay, I don't want this to seem like I am really watering down the complexity of how hard networking is.
00:32:19
Speaker
But I go back to like the double date example. Like what about sitting down with somebody and hanging out with them? What makes people want to be your friend? Like that's what I'm constantly pulled back to. And normally when I think about meeting new people and really loving being around them, they are, they're positive. We have a term that we use in our life. They're life giving. Like I leave them and I feel like energized and like,
00:32:46
Speaker
more positive after leaving their conversation. And a lot of times that comes from people being really interested in me, which sounds selfish, but we're all human. I think it's really special when people are really engaged in asking me questions about my life and I'm like, oh, they want to get to know me. This is great. Well, that's so sweet of them. And I have this great conversation where it's not painfully hard to talk.
00:33:09
Speaker
And i think a lot of times people worry so much about like the networking professional side of everything where is if they walked into a scenario where they're meeting up with a planner that they've never met or they're trying to get to know another retired for the second shoe for you know if they just worry about like i just wanna become friends with these people.
00:33:29
Speaker
That is way more appealing than anything else that they could do. Don't worry about showing them a portfolio. Don't worry about talking about, oh, how much experience you've had. Make sure they know I did this, this, and this. Just worry about forming a friendship. I think that sounds so simple, but that is how I have formed so many friendships in the past.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, and I gotta imagine that's a, you know, as you just shared with, through the story of figuring out who's new in your area, even one relationship, the amount of opportunities that that can create, you know, and I just think like somebody who's just getting started, if they go to a networking event, and, you know, they hit it off with a planner, you know, that they're just trying to get to know, as you said, like as a friend, almost. Not only could that lead to more inquiries or referrals from that planner,
00:34:21
Speaker
But then also meeting other people in the industry, you know, I think that and then you meet somebody else and it leads to more inquiries and more referrals. Yeah. And and I think it's so important to be the person that a planner or another photographer meets that they enjoy just being around and not like off that person. They just want to get bookings like they're just in it for them like.
00:34:45
Speaker
That's never going to work. And I think about that. Tyler and Ashley Harrington are a great example of, they weren't trying to network with us when they met us, but they genuinely helped. They had a genuine interest in helping us with our business, with their gifts and their abilities. Tyler's like, Caitlin, have you ever thought about doing more videos online? And now our entire business is videos online?
00:35:10
Speaker
But when Tyler offered for like that part of our business to grow and he was like genuinely like, I just think I could help you with that. And now who is the number one videographer that we tell everyone that we need to work with? I mean, I, I probably shouldn't say this out loud, but I give people discounts if they'll book them because that's how much I want to work with them. So like brides will say, Hey, the Harrington's are too expensive. And I'm like, Hey, I'll take a thousand dollars off if you work with them because I love working with them.
00:35:38
Speaker
So how did the Harrington's get to be that place in our business relationship? It started with they genuinely just wanted to be friends and they wanted to help us. And it was nothing selfish about it because for years, honestly, they just continually were just so giving towards us and so sweet. And of course I want to work with them because of how much I enjoy being around them. And so I think that, uh, you know, it comes back to having a lot of confidence in,
00:36:07
Speaker
the world.
00:36:21
Speaker
just give me some bookings, you know, refer me, refer me. I'm so sick of hearing people say that, you know, so. Yeah. And I, and I like what you said about, or I don't want people to glance over the fact that you said it took years, you know, like that relationship with, with the Harrington's, right? It took years. And so that's a, I mean, that's a long time, right? But think about, um,
00:36:41
Speaker
Think about what the impact that that's had on the Harrington's business Let's say you know and the people that they've gotten to meet through you and so definitely I think worth it and And again, I don't want to make it sound like oh, they're just building business connections, right because you guys are really good friends Yes, yes as well. So I don't want to you know, I don't want to make it No, we talk about that a time. We're like guys we're real friends
00:37:03
Speaker
We're not just blog friends. We're real friends. But I think, honestly, for other people, it would be in their best interest to form friendships like that. And it can be life-changing to have, I would say, a lot of our, even you guys, like you and Krista, are some of our good friends. And we're not friends because we want to get bookings from each other. But there's positive things business-wise that come
00:37:30
Speaker
from investing in the people that are in your industry instead of refraining and being pulled away in opposite directions. So yeah, I think in a nutshell, you gotta form friendships and genuinely care about people. That makes a huge difference, not just with networking, but with your clients as well.
00:37:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I think while it might take longer to do that than to create a beautiful Instagram feed, that the results are much more long-term and powerful than building a pretty Instagram feed. But I don't want to downplay channels like social media. So you're starting your business, networking's definitely one of the first things that you would do, I'm hearing you say. After that, moving on to, would it be social media?
00:38:18
Speaker
I also do want to ask you, and I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I want to ask you about email lists because we hear a lot about email lists now.
Engaging Through Social Media and Email Lists
00:38:26
Speaker
We didn't build our photography business using an email list. When I hear people say, you have to have an email list, I'm thinking,
00:38:34
Speaker
I'm not sure you have to have any specific channel. You can make it work with just word of mouth. But I am interested in hearing whether you think that has a place for a photographer or a planner or a florist who's building a service-based business. So I'll just put it in your court. Where do you start there? Social media-wise, where do you start?
00:38:56
Speaker
Social media wise, I think if you're starting right now in this day and age, I still think Instagram is where it's at as far as being noticed and getting engagement. And I know it's hard. I know it's hard to start a feed like that, but you have to view, um, you have to view that method of engagement as it's a support system for what you're portraying in real life. So don't view Instagram as like, Oh my gosh, I've got to pay to get follower. I got to get some people looking at my stuff. No, you, you want to be.
00:39:25
Speaker
Extremely personable and strategic in what you're sharing Share who you are don't hold back in that area so that when you meet people and they start following you That's supporting who they met, you know, I think that's really important and honestly like the example gave before that's why I Choose to refer people that I hear about through word-of-mouth because I look them up and I'm like, oh I like what they're putting out there So it's supporting the rumor that I heard about them and that makes a big difference in who I choose to connect myself with so
00:39:56
Speaker
That's one way. And I think Instagram then allows you to send people elsewhere. So you do a blog post where you're creating this archive of this client. You worked in all this great stuff that you did. You can push them to the blog from Instagram. I think that's important. But when it comes to email lists and thinking about
00:40:17
Speaker
How does that play out? Like if I started my business right now, not the education side, but just the wedding photography side, would email list be a huge part of that? It's funny. I had a newsletter way back then. Honestly, I collected email addresses way ahead of the curve, at least in our industry. Yes, no, definitely. Um, but I didn't do anything with it because I was like, I would send a few newsletters and it would be literally like, guys, guess what? We got a puppy and I've got three weddings. And I'm like, why am I emailing people this?
00:40:47
Speaker
I think it's a way to let people know that you're busy, that cool stuff is happening, but when you really think about bringing a lead in as a wedding photographer, this is not a reoccurring thing. You get married once. What we would have to do, if you want to use email lists in a way that really, really worked, you'd have to get
00:41:11
Speaker
some type of lead magnet out there. You'd have to be attracting engaged people in some way, maybe with some tips or tricks about like, Hey, are you about to be engaged? Like, and that's hard to do. People that are not quite engaged or about to be engaged, then you, they've got to come on your list at the right time to where you can help them and train them into like, Oh my gosh, this is all great content. I'm getting this photographer. I should book her.
00:41:36
Speaker
And then you're trying to convert someone to spend not like $29 on a digital download, you're wanting them to convert to thousands of dollars. So, you know, all that, you got to think about it this way, all that effort that goes into creating that funnel to work, to make a conversion.
00:41:53
Speaker
is what else could you be doing with that time? You know what I mean? And I know that there are some digital marketers out there that completely disagree with this opinion, but in my world, I just don't know if that would effectively do what I want it to do.
00:42:11
Speaker
And I would rather put my effort into hosting a KJ Bradengroom cookout at our house where you can bring your maid of honor and the guy's best friend as well. That is way more effective to get me more weddings than you put all this effort into an email funnel.
00:42:26
Speaker
And I want to talk about that specifically in a second because I'm interested in hearing more about that and I know that I think one of the things people know about your business is how good you are at creating community. But the last thing about the email list, because I've thought about that a lot too and with weddings especially, the timeframe in which you have to nurture somebody is just so short.
00:42:47
Speaker
But if you're a family photographer maybe and you do mini sessions every year, then it might be, you know, then it's something where, yeah, man, I really wish I'd have those emails so that come October every year, I can just blast out people who I know are already interested in this. But I would agree with weddings, the timeframe is just too short to nurture and time is probably better spent.
Community Building and Client Relationships
00:43:10
Speaker
Tell us about, so what are these things you do? Do you still do the cookout every year?
00:43:15
Speaker
Well, yes, I mean, we wanted to do one this year. It was supposed to be May or June. And of course, life threw us a big curve ball with losing James. And so we haven't done one this year because we've been trying to get back on our feet. But we literally built our house to be able to serve with our business in a way that I don't think other people have really ever done. And obviously, I know that you can't be like, you know what? I'm going to host cookouts. Let's build a house. You know, that's that's not what you do.
00:43:44
Speaker
But we were in a place in our life where we knew we wanted to put down roots and we grew up in the country. I wanted to grow up in the country and I knew like I want to be able to invite 50 couples into the country and have a barbecue in the backyard and not have an HOA yell at us. We just have this vision of
00:44:02
Speaker
You know, we are there for this important part of our couple's days. We want to invest in their life beyond just getting a big check from them and then delivering a massive gallery to them. If that's the only transaction that happens between us, I'm going to die a very unfulfilled person.
00:44:19
Speaker
we want to pour into their lives and what better way to have them join in in our life and feel like they were changed by us than to let them actually come to our home. So we've only lived in this house for a year and a half. So we haven't had a lot of time to do a lot of things, but we did have a cookout last year and it was so much fun. We had a couple drive down from New York city to come to our house for a cookout. And it was great cause like the sun was setting. I took a few engagement pictures for each couple and
00:44:47
Speaker
at the end of the night, they're like, can we do this again? I'm like, sure, this is great. So honestly, our biggest problem is our past KJ Brides and KJ couples, they're mad that they didn't get to come to the house because they weren't 2016 couples. And I'm like, guys,
00:45:03
Speaker
We have 300 couples that we've worked with. I can't invite 300 people. That'd be like hosting a wedding at our house. But it works. It is not just about marketing and having those brides and those couples talk about how much they loved getting to revisit with their wedding photographer for their anniversary photos. It's not just about that. It's about the fact that we have a relationship with Jen and Gino, for example.
00:45:30
Speaker
on that.
00:45:46
Speaker
serving people with or selling online or doing business wise, that will always be our mantra because it works and it is more fulfilling than just running a business for the sake of making money. But even online, those relationships online, you have a group for your brides, right?
00:46:03
Speaker
Yes, yeah, Facebook group. Yeah, and so what's interesting about that too, again, being ahead of the curve, Facebook has recently announced in the last year that they are kind of discounting the business page, and they're prioritizing groups and family and friends and connections and things like that. So you have this group of brides, and I imagine that the value they offer each other, it goes beyond you just chiming in and providing value for them on how they can make the most of their wedding day, but they probably add a ton of value for each other.
00:46:33
Speaker
What I love the most is that a lot of those brides now are moms. There's posts in there about moms and things that moms need to help each other with. There's people who are like, hey, we're looking to buy our first house. They ask opinions and advice to other brides who are three years ahead who've already done that step of life. The goal is not to
00:46:56
Speaker
have real estate leads being passed around. The goal is for when people think about Caitlyn Jayne's photography, years after they got married, they still find value in working with us. They still think like, you know what? I don't know what to do about this, but well, maybe the KJ brides would know. Like there's, there's just this community mindset that I want people to feel. And I'll be honest, like as we've gone from shooting 50 weddings a year, 42, 50 weddings a year to, um, to 10,
00:47:23
Speaker
I've got to be more strategic. That means I'm only adding 10 people a year instead of adding 40. That's four times less than what I had. The conversation can sometimes dwindle when there's less people, but the nurturing of community is still the same. Even if I have to pop in there and I'm like, guys, we have a new 2019 KJ bride, welcome her. That's okay. People get excited all over again.
00:47:46
Speaker
People in those Facebook groups were so supportive for us, like for, you know, losing James and walking through that season. Like we got more gifts in the mail from KJ bride than I ever imagined. I mean, every day you were getting Amazon deliveries and I'm like,
00:48:00
Speaker
This person I shot their wedding in 2011, and they're still committed to following our story, which is awesome. Yeah, and if they're that committed to you, you gotta imagine too. And this is not why you do it, as you've made clear, but as a result of that community and fostering that community, you gotta imagine that when they have a friend that's going to get married, and that friend is asking for vendor recommendations, that your name comes up. And because, not only because you're a great wedding photographer,
00:48:30
Speaker
but for all of these other reasons and how you're invested in their lives. Right, right. And the great example of that is, you know, so I'm shooting a wedding in DC. It's a really nice wedding. It's going to be up north next year. Shot this bride's sister's wedding like two or three years ago at Pippin Hill. This past week, this bride's mom sent me a letter and like a gift in the mail talking about how my story with
00:48:57
Speaker
James's life has really hit home for her because she had also lost a baby and I think about all that's happening with this one family and I think about the impact that we've been able to have by saying yes to this one wedding and I'm like this is what it's all about this is exactly what I want to happen I want
00:49:17
Speaker
to book people because they love us but also because God's allowing us to have an impact on their life in a way that I never thought I could until I allowed myself to view my business in a different way. I think the other thing that's interesting is what you said about people booking because they're asking friends like, hey, who should I work with? There's a lot of people that probably hear us being referred
00:49:40
Speaker
that will never ever book us because we're too expensive. But it's the bridesmaids that remember three years ago, what I was like in the bridal suite, what Michael was like with the groomsmen, how we handled ourselves with the reception. Those are the people are like, you know what, I saw them. They match with what they are like online. I'm going to splurge and I'm going to be a KJ bride, you know, and only 10 of those a year now. So I just have to keep doing what I'm doing, but I have to be more intentional about the experience in person. It's not just,
00:50:10
Speaker
a numbers game on Instagram like some people think it is. Well I think that's something that's becoming really clear to me through this conversation is that you're not necessarily worried about what Joe Schmo, photographer's doing and how many followers they have on Instagram and you know whether they're educating people or this and that and I think that's the kind of stuff that so many people get caught up in and they look at that as their picture of success. You're just hyper focused on serving the clients you do have
00:50:37
Speaker
as well as you possibly can and you've created this experience, you've taken what could be just a one day experience and you've turned it into an experience that through things like a Facebook group and a cookout and so many other different aspects last 365 days a year and you just serve those people really well and as a result, you're finding more clients.
Serving Clients and Creating Lasting Experiences
00:50:58
Speaker
Yeah. And that's the point I want to make sure about. I don't want it to seem like I don't worry about other people because I actually have to choose to believe. Like sometimes I think, Caitlin, you don't know what the rest of the industry is doing. You're behind. You're outdated. You're missing the mark. Like all these photographers aren't doing what you're doing and that makes you wrong.
00:51:18
Speaker
But then I have to remind myself of what you just said like, no, no, no, that's not what everything about my business that I've done because it was my idea and I wasn't looking at all the noise of the rest of the industry. Um, those are the ideas that still work and it's not just Caitlyn James photography. Like that's the case. Caitlyn James education is the same way. Like.
00:51:38
Speaker
People were doing a certain method of things even a year ago, and we weren't really thriving with it We were trying it, but it wasn't working great and so one night I had this idea And it was it was this idea to let people follow me around like behind the scenes
00:51:52
Speaker
And it was crazy because who in their right mind would let someone see the behind the scenes of shooting a wedding every single time? It's like the Instagram stories to the, like if courses, if you're normal online courses Instagram, I feel like this is the Instagram stories of that. You know, like people get to see real weddings, real issues, you know, kind of as they unfold in, you know, almost real time. I know you go and you edit the footage so it's not just eight hours. Right, right.
00:52:21
Speaker
But it's one of those things where that idea, I got so nervous that it was going to be horrible because it wasn't what the rest of the world was doing and it was the best thing I've ever done. When you go back to wedding photography, I think it's encouraging that I look back at the last 10 years of business and I can honestly say,
00:52:41
Speaker
that the best ideas, the most profitable ideas are the ideas where I decided to not look at what the rest of the world was doing and to make it my own. And those are also the most scary ideas because who invites people to their house for a cookout, you know, in a business setting? No one else is doing that. I think it's weird, but it works and it's really, that's encouraging to me. So I am very much self-conscious about that sometimes. Like I want to make sure I'm up on all the newest trends
00:53:10
Speaker
But I also have to recognize that trends don't work for us. We have to create trends. And when we create trends, that's our best work that we ever do.
00:53:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's probably going to be refreshing for a lot of people to hear you talk about how you still have that anxiety, you know, and you have to remind yourself. But it is a good reminder for people to even when they're posting on social media, like who are they posting this for? Are they posting it for their, you know, potential clients? Are they posting it for the other photographers in the industry or the other florists or whoever it is, whatever industry you're in, because because you're going to look a little bit better.
00:53:43
Speaker
But that look a little bit better doesn't necessarily put food on the table. That doesn't pay the bills. Impressing the other photographers in your area doesn't pay the bills. What does is booking another client. So I think that even there seems to be this idea that for people to grow their businesses, they have to then start posting for other people in their industry.
00:54:05
Speaker
But I think only one way to go and not everybody's called to that.
Power of Personal Marketing
00:54:11
Speaker
So I think, again, taking a lesson from you and just being hyper-focused on building that community and serving your clients well is really what created the business that you have today. Yeah, and the perk of that is that
00:54:26
Speaker
The more that you focus in on what you're really good at, we realize early on, we're really good at this. We're going to focus on this. You know what I'm not really good at? I'm not really good at being published in Martha Stewart Wedding's magazine. I've never done that and I've never really been good at making sure that I could get in these big name magazines. I think that that should be refreshing to people. I'm charging 10 grand a wedding.
00:54:50
Speaker
but I've never been the person with the perfect feed on Instagram that's been like, you know, featured all these places. And I think, you know, a mistake that some people make is that they can, um, they think they have to choose between, I'm either going to market personally or I'm going to market by being publishable. You know, that those are the two worlds that people see and they feel like they can't do one or the other. And I actually think there's a huge hole in the wedding photography market where some of those big names, super talented,
00:55:19
Speaker
Fine art shooters if they would let themselves be a little personal. Oh my gosh, they would just dominate Everything because when I follow some people like that and I see little snippets of their life on insta story I'm like, oh my gosh I love your work and I really love who you are who you are with your wife who you are with your kids but they won't share that that often because they're so focused on being published and
00:55:43
Speaker
So I just wish people would realize there's freedom in doing things your own way and we are we are proof of that So anyway, if that was a tangent that was for free Well, I do I do as we as we wrap up here I do have one other question for you about trends that you see in marketing and or Some common mistakes that you see people make and I'll let you decide where you want to start there Or if you really want to start with one or the other But what are you seeing now?
00:56:14
Speaker
I think what I just said, that was a good example, feeling you've got to choose between being personable or being publishable and that you can't intersect the two. Either your feed's got to be this perfect fine art display of everything work-wise but nothing that's not an iPhone photo. I think sometimes there's some misconceptions there. But I also think that there's a lot of fear behind people thinking that if they're personable, they're not professional.
00:56:42
Speaker
And I think that that's a common, even in our workshops, I'm like, people come to our workshops and I think to myself, have you not read anything that I've talked about the last 10 years? Because why would you still think, how are there people that follow what we do and still think that sharing who they are is gonna be a mistake? And I think so many people say, well, Caitlin, I don't have a cute dog. Or Caitlin, I don't have a design background. I don't decorate a pretty house like you do. And I'm like, first of all,
00:57:12
Speaker
Those are things that you make up in your own head and it's really an excuse so that you don't have to try this new avenue of marketing. I wish more people would realize the trend of pulling away from personal marketing because you think it's going to make you unprofessional. You're doing a huge disservice to your brand because you can share personally while still having a professional persona online. And I think people are missing out on this huge avenue
00:57:38
Speaker
of marketing power because they just pull back from that and they think that personal marketing is reserved for people like me. It started because you had a cute fluffy dog and you're an extrovert so it's easy for you but that's not true. That's not true at all and I think that there's so many people that they need permission to go do it and I wish that they would. I wish that they would take a leap because
00:58:04
Speaker
One of the best parts of when we do workshops at our house is the last night and we're sitting there in my living room and there's photographers that are like, you know what, I just don't have anything to share. And I'm like, no, no, let me tell you.
00:58:15
Speaker
I've known you for two days now. We've spent two days together and I've heard you talk about your sushi obsession for two days. And I think it's a little strange, but it's also really interesting to me that you know so much about sushi. And I think that there's other people in the world that probably are equally obsessed with sushi and you could gradually introduce that weird nuance of your life into a way that people would get attached to it and be like, oh yeah, I resonate with that.
00:58:41
Speaker
And then you start sharing things about what are other aspects of your life that you're passionate about? Because the more that you give people something to be passionate about with you, the more they're going to keep coming back. And I wish I could sit down with everybody that struggles with this and be like, no, no, no, let me tell you what I just heard. That's exactly what you should be sharing. But I can't do that with everybody. So I just get on a podcast and say, stop backing away from professionally sharing your life personally.
00:59:11
Speaker
If that makes sense, I talked with, uh, when, when I had Tyler Harrington on and we talked about this a little bit, especially through video. I mean, again, and I've said it a number of times, you know, especially in that episode where Instagram, Instagram stories is a great medium to get used to that because it disappears after 24 hours. So as hard as it is, you just have to deal with it for 24 hours and then it's gone, you know, and the more you do it, I think the more comfortable you get with it.
00:59:38
Speaker
Yes, and the more attached people get to you and they don't even look at your feed anymore. They just want to see videos of your daughter. And then when you have a great wedding that you blog, it's like icing on the cake. Like look at these gorgeous pictures that they're pushing me towards through insta stories. So yeah, totally insta stories. You have no excuse. You know, you just give it a shot. So I definitely think, and I know a lot of people say this, all the same message.
01:00:04
Speaker
But I want people to look at our life and our business and what we've done for 10 years and recognize that even though the world's changed and the internet has changed, there's one thing that has remained the same. And it's that whatever your God given gifts are personality wise, you're always going to win with that. There's no way that that won't work for you.
01:00:24
Speaker
The only way it's not going to work is if you start backing away from that, and I think most people do that for three reasons. One, you're burned out. Two, you're lacking in experience and you're not confident. Or three, you're just working for money's sake. Those are the three type of people that can't seem to make the personality marketing work for them, and it's because their heart's not in the right place. Or they don't have the capacity to market their business that way.
01:00:50
Speaker
If you're in those three categories, we need to get you out of there so you can start personally marketing in a way that's effective.
Longevity in the Photography Business
01:00:56
Speaker
And that makes so much sense, right? I mean, that's how we connect with one another outside of business. Why wouldn't it be true for our businesses? And I think even just the ways that social media is developing kind of validate that.
01:01:14
Speaker
And Tyler, if Tyler listens to this, will laugh at me, but messenger marketing, Facebook messenger marketing is becoming a thing. People being DM'd on Instagram, especially one of my younger siblings, he chats with his friends through Instagram DM. And so it makes sense that more and more people are gonna start reaching out to you through messaging. And that just makes sense. So is there anything else?
01:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, I would say, you know, this is, I'm glad we talked about what we did because this is the heartbeat of why we are still thriving 10 years later when the average wedding photographer
01:01:53
Speaker
ends their business at year eight. I think that's the normal cutoff point for most photographers. I would assume that the average life of a photographer, not life, but business life, that would be really depressing, is two years. The average business life is probably much shorter than eight, but if you grow a business that makes it past maybe five years, then you probably get to eight on average.
01:02:21
Speaker
And I think that a lot of people, they can't get their price point high enough to where they can shoot less weddings and make the same amount and they get burned out and they have to have a change of pace. They can't keep doing what they were doing. Michael and I could not be shooting 40 weddings a year like we used to and start our family and grow our family. I know other people that do it and it's incredible, but there's a cutoff point where it's like, this is too much even physically. They keep doing this every weekend.
01:02:48
Speaker
And the reason why I think that's important to what we've been talking about this whole time is that
01:02:53
Speaker
The only way that you can rise above the standard price point in your area or in your market as a wedding photographer, the only way you can beat that is either if you are super in demand because you are just incredibly fine art focused and publishable, or you have people falling in love with you to where they're going to spend whatever they can to become a KJ bride. And that is happening because of personality, not because my images are spectacular. So if you want to raise prices,
01:03:21
Speaker
and maintain longevity in your business and not get burned out and still enjoy what you do, you've got to learn how to raise prices and that only comes through the value of who you are personally. And that was a mouthful, I hope that makes sense. No, it definitely makes sense. I also think that this is kind of a personal prediction that
01:03:38
Speaker
We'll start to see more and more people scale their business with associates You know I think like that was something that used to be more common And I think that people are going to drift back to that because it makes sense for so many people Some people might love to be photographers built a successful business But necessarily don't want to necessarily deal with the photography aspect of things before so they'll go work for somebody else or vice versa they'll let others work for them
01:04:02
Speaker
I think the person to look to that has done that so well, but also it's still marketed personally is Nancy Ray because Nancy Ray constantly, she has associates. She has a great team, but she doesn't, a lot of people say if you have associates like, Oh, Caitlin, you'll never have associates because you can't market yourself personally anymore. It's not about working with Caitlin. It's all this team of people. Um, while I don't think we'll have associates, I do think that it's very possible.
01:04:28
Speaker
to personally market an associate photography business and Nancy Ray does that. I love seeing behind the scenes of their team meetings and their team events. They go out to dinner with the whole team and they hang out with their husbands and I know her entire team just like I know her because of the way that she markets her team personally. And so if anyone wants to do that or wants to have a team,
01:04:48
Speaker
Nancy actually has a shop that is incredible and it has resources that I have not been able to find elsewhere. So, just a little plug for my friend Nancy, but she's great and has all the resources for that, so. Yeah, well I might have to reach out to her and have a separate conversation about team building and things like that with her, because again, I gotta imagine that marketing a personal brand and even having associates makes people trust those associates that much more.
Accessing Caitlin's Resources
01:05:14
Speaker
Oh my gosh, yeah.
01:05:16
Speaker
So I want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing all of that with us. And there's just so much I think for people to work through, which is such a good thing. But if people want to learn more, where should they go? Honestly, it's going to sound funny, but I honestly think that Instagram is a great place to get to know who I am as a person. But
01:05:41
Speaker
Once you're on Instagram, you're going to quickly find that there's two different worlds of our life. There's the photography world for being a wedding photographer, and then there's the educational side.
01:05:52
Speaker
I think being a part of our email list, we have a KJ education Facebook group that you do not have to buy anything to be a part of. It's just a free place to gain insight and to be in a positive community online. And so that's a great place. And if you are a photographer that's looking to learn but in an affordable way, KJL Access is probably our most exciting, most popular, it's definitely our most popular way that we're educating. And it's also our most personable because basically what we're doing is
01:06:22
Speaker
We allow people every month that you can become a member and you just constantly every month you get content where you're watching me shoot through my wedding season and my portrait season. So it's behind the scenes, shoots, weddings, portrait sessions.
01:06:36
Speaker
It's hilarious, but you do learn something, I promise. And one thing I want to say about that, which I'm sure if you're just getting started out, this is a great place to go. But even if you are an established photographer, this is also a community for you. One of our good friends in our area, she has an established business.
01:06:56
Speaker
and she's part of KJL Access, and she loves it. And she told us herself that she doesn't really like going on. Online courses have never really jived with her, but she loves this because it's just so nice to see how somebody else does it. And then also to be part of the community. Right, and I think the cool thing about KJL Access is that for me,
01:07:24
Speaker
I am just doing what I do and then I go back and I rewatch what I do and I think, oh, Caitlin, you look like a hot mess. But I get to go and I, there's no better way to explain people a thought process than to film yourself in the process of doing it and then be able to teach from that point on. And that means people are seeing like the bad stuff, you know, me tripping over things, weird lighting situations, bad vendor interactions, you know, how do we handle that.
01:07:52
Speaker
I mean, they literally get access, they get all access to everything behind the scenes and we've had people say, hey, I've been in business for eight years and I needed inspiration for how to change and move forward. I don't want to get burned out and this is the answer. And then we've had people say, hey, I'm just getting started and I've learned more from this than I did second shooting because I can rewind and rewatch it over again. And so it's really cool. It was this idea I had in the middle of the night and now it's really affecting thousands of photographers businesses and I love it.
01:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, there's links to that through our Instagram account. You can find it there. But really, we feel honored and blessed that we get to share in people's lives and in their businesses. And if God allows us to keep doing this for a long time, we'll be really excited about that.
01:08:38
Speaker
Well, you'll also be able to find links to that in the show notes. So if you head over to the show notes, we'll make sure that we link to your Instagram and KJ all access and all the different resources that you have available to people right now. So thank you again. And, you know, hopefully we'll get to do this again soon. I would love that thing, baby.
01:08:59
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to devianchrista.com.