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The Woman Who Saved Wedgwood
38 Plays1 year ago
In 1909, Daisy Makeig-Jones was hired by the Wedgwood firm in Staffordshire, England, to decorate pottery. She would go on to develop the “Fairyland” luster pattern, which combined dazzling iridescent glazes with motifs from fairy tales and would serve to revitalize the Wedgwood brand. Bailey Tichenor, one half of the duo behind Artistoric gallery, comes on the pod to discuss a mid-1920s example of Makeig-Jones’s work called Poplar Trees, which boasts depictions of cypresses and other trees, a Japanese bridge, and winding river on the outside; inside are elves, flowers, and a mermaid medallion set among sparkling waves of glaze, along with a hidden treasure: the designer’s monogrammed signature.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Curious Objects' Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:14
Speaker
A couple of years ago, I was at an antique show in San Francisco, and I stumbled across this booth for a gallery that I had never heard of before.
00:00:23
Speaker
It was a small booth, but it was wildly colorful and eye-catching.
00:00:27
Speaker
And instead of, you know, the dozens or hundreds of pieces you often see at booths at these sorts of fairs, it had a really small focused group of equally colorful and eye-catching ceramic objects.
The Gallery: Art Historic
00:00:40
Speaker
I was really taken by the presentation, especially when I found out that the gallery was brand new and that it was run by a young couple, Bailey Tishner and Michael Assis, who had both studied decorative arts at the Bard Graduate Center here in New York.
00:00:54
Speaker
And it turns out that Bailey and Michael were handling some really interesting material, and they were talking about it in ways that I found incredibly compelling.
00:01:03
Speaker
So the gallery is called Art Historic.
00:01:05
Speaker
That's like art historic, but one word and without the H. And I'm happy to report that they are still going at it and getting their hands on some really great things, including today's Curious Object.
00:01:17
Speaker
So here to tell us all about it is Bailey Titchener.
00:01:20
Speaker
Thanks for joining me.
Rapid-Fire Questions with Bailey (Q&A)
00:01:22
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:24
Speaker
So I want to start with some rapid fire questions.
00:01:27
Speaker
Bailey, zombies are overrunning the earth and you are about to jump onto the escape rocket.
00:01:35
Speaker
What one object are you packing in your suitcase?
00:01:39
Speaker
Is it something I own or something that I would like to own?
00:01:42
Speaker
Anything in the world.
00:01:44
Speaker
This is our last ditch effort to save humanity and you've been chosen.
00:01:49
Speaker
Oh, boy.
00:01:51
Speaker
Honestly, I think I would bring a stuffed animal that I have had since I was a child.
00:01:57
Speaker
I'm not ashamed to say it.
00:01:59
Speaker
What's the stuffed animal?
00:02:02
Speaker
It's like a little lamb.
00:02:04
Speaker
Cute.
00:02:05
Speaker
Okay.
00:02:05
Speaker
Well, that's a lucky little lamb.
00:02:08
Speaker
Sorry.
00:02:08
Speaker
Sorry, Mona Lisa.
Ceramics Misconceptions and Personal Stories
00:02:10
Speaker
Okay.
00:02:10
Speaker
What one book should an amateur read to start to understand historic ceramics?
00:02:16
Speaker
I would say, shameless plug, the Bard Graduate Center has a wonderful history of design textbook.
00:02:24
Speaker
And there's things about ceramics, but just about design in general.
00:02:30
Speaker
And I think it would really, you know, help get a sense of different periods, material culture.
00:02:35
Speaker
It's very encyclopedic.
00:02:37
Speaker
Terrific.
00:02:38
Speaker
Now, what movie has the most interesting depiction of material culture?
00:02:43
Speaker
Well, what's coming to my mind that isn't a movie, but a TV show, um, is the marvelous Mrs. Maisel, which is, um, like fifties and sixties, um, interiors and costumes.
00:02:56
Speaker
Um, just really gorgeous work.
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:59
Speaker
The costumes in particular are really fabulous in that show.
00:03:05
Speaker
What's your favorite museum to visit?
00:03:08
Speaker
I really love the V and A in London, Victoria and Albert museum.
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, hard to argue with that.
00:03:14
Speaker
What's one misconception people have about your field that you'd like to fix?
00:03:21
Speaker
Something that I hear a lot is that, oh, my grandma used to have something like this, which maybe is true, but I think it points to a notion that ceramics, you know, China, quote unquote, is, you know,
00:03:40
Speaker
like a granny kind of thing.
00:03:43
Speaker
So I'd really like to, you know, show other sides to the field.
00:03:49
Speaker
Everything like has an interesting story.
00:03:52
Speaker
There's themes that can relate to today, like environmentalism, and female artists kind of like what we'll talk about today a bit.
Journey to Staffordshire, England
00:04:02
Speaker
So kind of reconceptualizing notions about ceramics.
00:04:10
Speaker
What is the first object that you remember falling in love with?
00:04:18
Speaker
So when I was probably about 14, I actually used to make jewelry out of antique pieces.
00:04:27
Speaker
And I remember I was at this flea market probably, and there was this little interesting charm
00:04:36
Speaker
pseudo reliquary ask it was Catholic, but I thought it was very cool and decorative.
00:04:41
Speaker
And I'm not Catholic, so I didn't know anything about it.
00:04:43
Speaker
But I just thought it was so cool.
00:04:45
Speaker
And I also remember it was the first piece that I ever, you know, bartered for a dealer.
00:04:52
Speaker
So that really holds a special place in my heart.
00:04:56
Speaker
It wasn't your stuffed lamb, I guess.
00:05:00
Speaker
Well, you know, maybe that too.
00:05:02
Speaker
What was the most recent object or work of art that you saw that gave you shivers?
00:05:10
Speaker
It was more of an assemblage than an individual piece of art.
00:05:14
Speaker
Back in the fall, I went to Staffordshire, England, which is the historical birthplace of English pottery, ceramics.
00:05:25
Speaker
And I went to the major factories, museums there.
00:05:31
Speaker
And to see all of those in one place, the things that I look at every day to learn more about, to maybe acquire, to study, it was just really just amazing to see them all combined together.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
Just like a really like an homage to English ceramics.
00:05:50
Speaker
Fantastic.
Listener Engagement and Contact Information
00:05:55
Speaker
Okay, well, we will be back with Bailey Titchener in a moment, but bear with me first, just for a couple of reminders.
00:06:03
Speaker
You've heard me say this week after week, and I know it probably feels repetitive, but it does feel important to me to say thank you for listening.
00:06:13
Speaker
Every week that you tune in, you are helping to make this project worthwhile.
00:06:18
Speaker
Even more so if you've mentioned curious objects to a friend or to your sister or your husband or your weird uncle, and maybe you recommended in an episode that you think they'd enjoy.
00:06:31
Speaker
And even more so if you've left us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or on Spotify.
00:06:37
Speaker
Someone recently posted a review saying, this podcast is a treasure and a delight.
00:06:43
Speaker
Every episode is interesting and thought provoking, which I happened to read on this dismal and rainy day.
00:06:50
Speaker
And honestly, it really turned my whole day around.
00:06:53
Speaker
So thank you very much to the person who wrote that.
00:06:58
Speaker
I really do appreciate those efforts so much.
00:07:00
Speaker
I know you're busy and it's not trivial to take the time and energy to do it, but we absolutely depend on you taking these little actions to help get the word out.
00:07:09
Speaker
So again, thank you so much.
00:07:11
Speaker
And if you'd like to reach out to me directly, I'd love to hear from you.
00:07:15
Speaker
You can reach me on Instagram at Objective Interest or over email at CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com.
Daisy McCaig Jones at Wedgwood
00:07:24
Speaker
You can, of course, see today's Curious Object on Instagram as well or at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast or on Art Historic's Instagram and website.
00:07:35
Speaker
And speaking of today's Curious Object, let's talk about it.
00:07:40
Speaker
And let's start with some context.
00:07:42
Speaker
So, OK, the year is 1909.
00:07:47
Speaker
And a 28-year-old woman named Daisy McCaig Jones has just been hired as an apprentice by a firm in Staffordshire, England.
00:07:58
Speaker
Speaking of Staffordshire, a little firm called Wedgwood.
00:08:03
Speaker
So Bailey, what was the big deal with Wedgwood?
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, so Wedgwood is a British ceramics factory, a pottery.
00:08:15
Speaker
It is one of the ceramic giants of England of, you know, ceramics history in general.
00:08:22
Speaker
It was founded in 1759 by Josiah Wedgwood, who was an amazing
00:08:28
Speaker
inventor, entrepreneur, artist, who was really a man of the Enlightenment period, you know, a Renaissance man.
00:08:38
Speaker
And the factory has always been on kind of like the cutting edge of the latest styles and technologies.
00:08:48
Speaker
Ever since then, they continue to produce pieces today that are beautiful.
00:08:52
Speaker
And, you know, you could buy right now if you wanted to.
00:08:56
Speaker
So Daisy McCaig Jones walks in looking for a job.
00:09:01
Speaker
How unusual was it in 1909 for a woman to seek out work in a factory like that at Wedgwood?
00:09:09
Speaker
So it would have been pretty unusual, although at this point in time, we're beginning to see more and more women enter the workforce and wanting to have a profession.
00:09:22
Speaker
And that being said, even in maybe the mid 19th century,
00:09:27
Speaker
female decorators of pottery in these factories was fairly common, called paintresses.
00:09:34
Speaker
So, you know, women did work in the factories, but they were not in any sort of leadership role or
00:09:44
Speaker
um really creating any artwork of their own and of course there are some exceptions but you know the beginning of the 20th century is really when we start to see this uh in daisy's case it is extra you know unusual because at this point she was 28 years old and you know when women would come to be apprentice painters uh they could be you know around 14 years old so all of her peers were much much younger than she was
00:10:14
Speaker
So it would have been probably a challenge for her to fit in there.
00:10:23
Speaker
And I can imagine it would have been a little bit difficult.
Daisy's Work Environment and Unique Style
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:26
Speaker
So, I mean, it must have been a very steep learning curve for her.
00:10:30
Speaker
But she had, do I understand right that she had gotten an introduction from a relative and this is sort of how she managed to get her foot in the door?
00:10:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:40
Speaker
So she did go to art school and she knew she wanted to be an artist, which is why she prevailed upon this family friend to introduce her to Cecil Wedgwood, who was obviously the director of Wedgwood at that time.
00:10:56
Speaker
And was she married at that time?
00:11:01
Speaker
She was not married.
00:11:02
Speaker
She never did marry.
00:11:04
Speaker
I don't want to use the phrase married to her work.
00:11:06
Speaker
That's very cliche, but she was, you know, she really, that was her whole life.
00:11:13
Speaker
Cliches are allowed here.
00:11:14
Speaker
All right.
00:11:17
Speaker
So she got her foot in the door.
00:11:20
Speaker
She got a job working at this great manufacturing.
00:11:24
Speaker
What would an average day at the office look like for Daisy?
00:11:29
Speaker
So I can more speak to that when she became a designer.
00:11:34
Speaker
I'm, you know, if you were just an apprentice, I'm not really sure what the hours were.
00:11:40
Speaker
I'm, you know, it's probably with child labor laws and stuff, things that we would probably not want to know today.
00:11:48
Speaker
16 hours a day, seven days a week.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:11:54
Speaker
But whenever she became a full designer, which was in 1914, by the way, she had her own studio.
00:12:02
Speaker
And she really, when she got in in the morning, I think she was there basically kind of locked up in there, furiously working on her designs and her drawings.
00:12:12
Speaker
A kind of cute anecdote that I've heard is that she had a miniature kiln in her office.
00:12:19
Speaker
But she used it for making grilled cheese sandwiches instead of, you know, using it to fire ceramics.
00:12:26
Speaker
And she would invite friends over for tea and stuff like that.
00:12:29
Speaker
So she really, like, lived up there, kind of in her own fairyland world, if we can say that.
00:12:37
Speaker
Yeah, well, and listeners will understand shortly why you might want to talk about Fairyland.
00:12:43
Speaker
But now, of course, I want to do a podcast about the history of grilled cheese.
00:12:49
Speaker
So, Wedgewood artisans were not generally allowed to sign their pieces, right?
00:12:54
Speaker
But daisies sometimes did.
00:12:56
Speaker
What was going on with that?
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah, so only until probably...
Exploring Daisy's Lusterware Techniques
00:13:03
Speaker
maybe like the 1930s, did we start to see the designers have their names on Wedgwood pieces?
00:13:11
Speaker
And I'm thinking of specifically Keith Murray was among the first.
00:13:16
Speaker
And
00:13:19
Speaker
This is probably more to do with, I think that Wedgwood wanted to be like a very professional organization.
00:13:27
Speaker
You know, everyone is working together for them.
00:13:30
Speaker
It's not about like the individual artists, right?
00:13:34
Speaker
You are a professional designer, you're designing for Wedgwood and Wedgwood's the mark on the piece.
00:13:40
Speaker
And so it is very rare.
00:13:43
Speaker
Daisy managed to work her signature or her monogram into several pieces.
00:13:50
Speaker
She was very proud of her work and she really recognized it for the work of art that it was.
00:13:57
Speaker
And, you know, she was very tenacious.
00:14:00
Speaker
So sometimes she would just sneak her signature in there, but this is a very rare practice.
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Speaker
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00:14:36
Speaker
We mentioned briefly Christopher Dresser earlier, who did designs for Wedgewood himself.
00:14:41
Speaker
Did his signature ever appear on pieces or do we just attribute those based on the design?
00:14:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:50
Speaker
So not not to my knowledge.
00:14:53
Speaker
I think that his like a facsimile of a signature is on.
00:14:58
Speaker
Pottery from a different manufacturing, but at Wedgwood, not to my knowledge, no.
00:15:02
Speaker
Interesting.
00:15:03
Speaker
Okay, so back to Daisy, who in 1914, you mentioned this is the year that she becomes a designer, officially takes on that position, that role in the firm.
00:15:16
Speaker
And she debuts this line of ceramics, which is called Ordinary Luster.
00:15:23
Speaker
And there's a lot to talk about here, but let's start with what lusterware is.
00:15:28
Speaker
Sure, so lusterware, actually the beginnings of it even go back to 9th century Iraq and there's different manifestations of it in periods throughout history.
00:15:42
Speaker
But it is a treatment, if you will, of the ceramic where you apply a kind of glaze that has metallic oxides in it.
00:15:52
Speaker
And whenever you fire it in the kiln,
00:15:56
Speaker
the oxides evaporate and you're left with kind of a very iridescent, shimmery surface or a luster.
00:16:06
Speaker
So how does lusterware relate to majolica?
00:16:11
Speaker
So...
00:16:13
Speaker
In the case of Daisy's work, the lusterware in general does not relate to Majolica, but in the case of Daisy's work, she actually combined several different techniques to make her pieces.
00:16:28
Speaker
So they were very new and fresh, different from other periods of lusterwares, right?
00:16:34
Speaker
So she used one of the techniques that Majolica used, Majolica being in the mid to late 19th century,
00:16:44
Speaker
She adapted one of those techniques for her luster wares and then put luster glazing on top of it.
00:16:54
Speaker
Okay, so why, you know, I'm no marketing guy, but if I were coming up with a new product line, my first instinct would not be to call it ordinary.
00:17:08
Speaker
What was this ordinary luster business?
00:17:10
Speaker
Where does that name come from?
00:17:12
Speaker
What does that mean?
00:17:14
Speaker
And what was this?
00:17:16
Speaker
What was so new and interesting about this line that she created?
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah, it is strange.
00:17:22
Speaker
I think, honestly, that ordinary is maybe a synonym for regular.
00:17:30
Speaker
And then another name that it was called in the factory was China Lusters.
00:17:34
Speaker
But they are called ordinary because they're put in opposition with her later work Fairyland.
00:17:42
Speaker
So when they first came out, they would have been called China lusters because there's nothing to compare them to.
00:17:47
Speaker
But they soon became called ordinary because if you're looking at this ordinary lusterware and then you're comparing it with the fairyland, I mean, it does look different.
00:17:58
Speaker
kind of ordinary compared to that.
00:18:01
Speaker
But it's not really, I don't think it's pejorative.
00:18:04
Speaker
I think it's just meant to like distinguish between the two.
00:18:08
Speaker
Ordinary is just a monochrome glaze, you know, one single color.
00:18:13
Speaker
And then Fairyland is really like a rainbow of colors.
00:18:17
Speaker
Okay,
Iconic Fairyland Luster
00:18:18
Speaker
great.
00:18:18
Speaker
So let's talk about Fairyland because that's what we're really here to discuss.
00:18:23
Speaker
And Fairyland luster is the product that Daisy is best known for.
00:18:29
Speaker
It's really where her fame originates.
00:18:33
Speaker
And this is something that she develops and releases with Wedgwood shortly after 1914 when she started with this ordinary, what we now call ordinary luster,
00:18:47
Speaker
So what is this fairyland luster idea?
00:18:52
Speaker
So the fairyland, like I said, they are with multiple colors, but they are covered in these really intricate gilded scenes of fairy tale type scenes, you know, which is where the name came from.
00:19:12
Speaker
The scenes are not princessy fairyland, if I can put it that way.
00:19:18
Speaker
They're a little bit darker.
00:19:20
Speaker
And especially once you get to look at you and you see these kind of grotesque figures, maybe sprites, ghouls, demons possibly.
00:19:30
Speaker
And I kind of would compare it to, you know, it's more Dr. Seuss than Disney.
00:19:37
Speaker
Gotcha.
00:19:38
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:38
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:40
Speaker
So tell me about our curious object for today, because you have an example of Fairyland luster in your inventory right now.
00:19:50
Speaker
What does this piece look like?
00:19:52
Speaker
So we have a bowl and it's
00:19:54
Speaker
called a punch bowl.
00:19:55
Speaker
That's the shape and every shape at Wedgwood had a specific name.
00:20:00
Speaker
They're very organized about their production.
00:20:04
Speaker
And it's a very large bowl, 11 inches diameter.
00:20:08
Speaker
It's raised up on a pedestal, so it makes a very monumental statement in the room.
00:20:14
Speaker
Its primary color is black.
00:20:17
Speaker
And on it is a scene, like an outdoor scene with cypress of trees, a bridge, kind of a forest.
00:20:28
Speaker
There's a winding river and a
00:20:32
Speaker
It's just very moody and interesting and just really amazing.
00:20:38
Speaker
And then in the center, it doesn't stop there.
00:20:43
Speaker
I have another very intricate scene.
00:20:46
Speaker
This has a bunch of like elves and there's trees in a forest.
00:20:53
Speaker
um some little like ladybug type figures and then in the very center of it is a really special kind of a medallion type motif showing a mermaid or perhaps like a siren um and she's in like a very like swirling wave sort of environment um
00:21:18
Speaker
And what is very special about this bowl that I kind of have alluded to is that we have her signature or her monogram hidden inside the interior decoration.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:31
Speaker
So how, I mean, how obvious is that signature?
00:21:34
Speaker
Is it something that a casual observer would pick out or do you have to kind of know what you're looking for?
00:21:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's you definitely have to know what you're looking for.
00:21:43
Speaker
And honestly, when I first acquired it, I did not realize that it had her signature.
00:21:49
Speaker
I only discovered that when I was really deeply cataloging.
00:21:53
Speaker
And of course, it was amazing discovery.
00:21:56
Speaker
But it's hidden in kind of a tree trunk.
00:22:00
Speaker
And on this one, the gilding is a little bit warm, but you can definitely make out it's a M and J sort of overlaid on one another.
00:22:10
Speaker
And I think also the fact that it was hard to find maybe points to that, you know, she maybe shouldn't have put that in there.
00:22:20
Speaker
They wouldn't have liked her to do that.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:23
Speaker
So it really might have been completely under the radar that her own employer might not have known that she had done that.
00:22:28
Speaker
Right.
00:22:30
Speaker
Just to be crassly commercial for a minute, what kind of effect do you think that signature has on the value of the bull?
00:22:38
Speaker
It definitely makes it a lot more valuable than a standard Fairyland piece, but Fairyland pieces are highly collectible anyway.
00:22:50
Speaker
But to find something that does have a signature is very, very rare once
00:22:57
Speaker
Wedgwood, like, you know, the factory would have found out that there was a signature.
00:23:01
Speaker
They would make her destroy the plates or remove it.
00:23:05
Speaker
So it wouldn't take long for somebody to discover it.
00:23:09
Speaker
So there's very few pieces that could have slipped by.
00:23:13
Speaker
Do you have any psychological sense of why she might have been interested in taking that risk in signing her work?
00:23:21
Speaker
She was very, very independent.
00:23:25
Speaker
From what I've read, it doesn't surprise me at all that she would have done it.
00:23:30
Speaker
It's not that she thought she was above the law, but
00:23:33
Speaker
She had such a meteoric rise in that company.
00:23:37
Speaker
And by this time, when this piece came out specifically, she was a well-known figure.
00:23:43
Speaker
And she also really turned the tides for the company because at this point, when she first came into the pottery in 1911, Wedgwood was kind of struggling a little bit.
00:23:57
Speaker
They didn't have any really innovative pieces.
00:24:00
Speaker
They were doing the same old thing.
00:24:03
Speaker
And her wares were really unlike anything that anyone had ever done before that anyone was doing.
00:24:09
Speaker
And they were very, very popular.
00:24:12
Speaker
I think, you know, there's no way she couldn't have known that.
00:24:15
Speaker
She knew that she had helped them out a lot.
00:24:18
Speaker
So like, of course, she deserved to have her signature on there.
Collectability and Value of Fairyland Luster
00:24:23
Speaker
Right.
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah, even if company policy and bureaucracy didn't allow it, yeah, she had sort of earned that right.
00:24:32
Speaker
These Fairyland Luster pieces are, you mentioned, highly collectible today, but at the time they were being manufactured, what would that have meant for a buyer?
00:24:42
Speaker
How expensive would a bowl like this one have been when Woodwood was first selling it?
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah, so...
00:24:51
Speaker
they they would have been very expensive when we're looking at the ordinary lusters versus the fairyland the ordinary actually had more commercial success because they were a little bit more affordable i mean they're still expensive or a luxury item but the fairyland pieces were very very expensive um
00:25:13
Speaker
something like an ordinary punch bowl that would have been nine inches would have been around five pounds four pounds and a similarly sized but fairyland version of that bowl would have been around seven pounds and that's even smaller than this bowl that we have the 11 inch one i see so um
00:25:37
Speaker
They were very expensive.
00:25:39
Speaker
They were expensive to make.
00:25:41
Speaker
For fairyland, you had to fire like five or six times.
00:25:45
Speaker
So all that really went into the cost.
00:25:49
Speaker
And they were definitely a luxury item.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:52
Speaker
I mean, is there any reasonable way to compare five pounds in 1909 to today's money?
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:00
Speaker
Well...
00:26:02
Speaker
Like, for example, if you are a bricklayer, you could be making five pounds a week.
00:26:07
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:26:08
Speaker
So that wouldn't even be one week's salary.
00:26:11
Speaker
And then, you know, you look at something like bread was five cents a loaf, beer six cents.
00:26:19
Speaker
A sewing machine would have been five pounds.
00:26:22
Speaker
Right.
00:26:23
Speaker
Wow.
00:26:24
Speaker
So these are truly like something that would be extra, you know, just to decorate your home.
00:26:30
Speaker
Not everyone could have one.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Daisy's Career and Challenges
00:26:33
Speaker
Interesting.
00:26:33
Speaker
And do you have a sense for who their primary patrons were?
00:26:39
Speaker
I mean, were these going into sort of aristocratic houses or were they going into industrialists' houses or were they more like, you know, art collector sort of pieces or have any sense of who the market was?
00:27:00
Speaker
It would have been middle to upper middle class households.
00:27:04
Speaker
I don't believe the aristocracy would have had this.
00:27:09
Speaker
It is my personal mission and dream to discover a photograph or some sort of documentation of one of these pieces in a historic interior because they are so unique and I just can't imagine them.
00:27:24
Speaker
in a 1920s interior.
00:27:27
Speaker
And I would love to see how that would have looked, but I have yet to come across that.
00:27:31
Speaker
Okay.
00:27:31
Speaker
Well, listeners, if you have any knowledge about that, you know who to contact.
00:27:38
Speaker
And then how did Daisy's career evolve after the release of this Fairyland line?
00:27:47
Speaker
Right.
00:27:47
Speaker
She, like I said, really rose through the ranks and she was a major player in Wedgwood.
00:27:55
Speaker
Um, kind of near the crash of 1929.
00:28:01
Speaker
The whole company obviously faced some hardships and simultaneously the style shifted more towards modernism.
00:28:13
Speaker
And so obviously her pieces really don't fit in with that kind of style.
00:28:17
Speaker
So the style, her pieces sort of ran their course in terms of popularity.
00:28:22
Speaker
You started to see a little bit of a decline there.
00:28:26
Speaker
And she continued to produce these wonderful pieces.
00:28:31
Speaker
This was what she wanted to do.
00:28:32
Speaker
She didn't want to adapt or change into anything else.
00:28:37
Speaker
This was her specialty.
00:28:39
Speaker
And at the same time, she kind of got, people say she was really, she became difficult.
00:28:51
Speaker
She wasn't taking direction very well.
00:28:54
Speaker
I believe that the factory had new ownership.
00:28:58
Speaker
There was a new director that she didn't get along with.
00:29:01
Speaker
And so honestly, she had kind of a hard time near the end of her career there.
00:29:07
Speaker
And they say that she was forced to retire in 1931.
Legacy and Market of Daisy's Work
00:29:14
Speaker
I'm not sure the circumstances surrounding that exactly, but it didn't end positively for her there, unfortunately.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker
And yet here we are talking about her now.
00:29:26
Speaker
You've mentioned how collectible her pieces are.
00:29:29
Speaker
She clearly has a lasting legacy.
00:29:31
Speaker
How did that come about?
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:35
Speaker
So I think that
00:29:39
Speaker
Well, her pieces have always been collected by those in the know, either people who are Wedgwood collectors and they know about her involvement there, people specifically collect fairyland wares.
00:29:52
Speaker
And this kind of movement happened in the 70s, 80s, 90s.
00:29:58
Speaker
In 1975, there's a very important publication, and it's really the only publication about her work, by Una de Fontaines, which I highly recommend.
00:30:07
Speaker
if you want to learn more about her.
00:30:10
Speaker
So I think she really brought some light to this artist.
00:30:13
Speaker
But I, like, for example, I had never, ever seen her work, heard of her at all.
00:30:20
Speaker
And I only happened to come across it when I started Art Historic, and I was looking for things to acquire.
00:30:26
Speaker
And it really caught my eye, because I'd never seen it before.
00:30:28
Speaker
So I think that
00:30:30
Speaker
A lot of people probably don't know as much about her or have even heard of her.
00:30:39
Speaker
And I really just, you know, would love to introduce people to her because obviously she has such an interesting story.
00:30:47
Speaker
And I just think it's amazing that, you know, as a woman, she was able to work her way up and have such an impact on the factory there and then create these amazing pieces.
00:31:01
Speaker
Okay, so if I'm wandering around a flea market and looking at punch bowls or other ceramic objects, how can I recognize if I'm looking at a piece of fairyland luster?
00:31:16
Speaker
So first, I would say to anyone who is interested in that scenario, simply just Google Daisy McKay Jones to get a visual of what her pieces look like.
00:31:27
Speaker
And once you see that, you don't even have to click into the images.
00:31:30
Speaker
Once you see that, you will never forget.
00:31:33
Speaker
I have never seen anything like them.
00:31:36
Speaker
I've never really seen...
00:31:39
Speaker
This is not something that there's forgeries of.
00:31:41
Speaker
So you can really spot her style.
00:31:44
Speaker
But if you want to, you know, get into specifics to really make sure you've got something there.
00:31:51
Speaker
Every piece of Wedgwood throughout history, nine times out of 10 is marked.
00:31:56
Speaker
It says Wedgwood.
00:31:57
Speaker
So all of her pieces say Wedgwood on the bottom.
00:32:00
Speaker
There's like, it's called the Portland base.
00:32:02
Speaker
It's like a
00:32:04
Speaker
So that's what the mark looks like.
00:32:07
Speaker
And then if it hasn't rubbed away, if the gilding hasn't rubbed away, there should be a pattern number down there that starts with a Z. Usually there might be, it might start with an X.
00:32:18
Speaker
So, you know, if you have that pattern number, you can look up in the book that I mentioned by Una de Fontaine, you can look up to see what that pattern's called.
00:32:28
Speaker
So, yeah, luckily this is something that is easy to spot if you know what it is.
00:32:35
Speaker
But yeah, you would be very lucky to find something out in the wild.
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, well, and so if I do, whether it's out in the wild or whether it's at your shop or somewhere else, what should I be looking for in terms of quality and condition?
00:32:55
Speaker
You will want to make sure that the gilding is in good condition.
00:32:59
Speaker
First of all, that's usually the first thing to go because it's very delicate.
00:33:03
Speaker
And especially when you have...
00:33:05
Speaker
useful wares, bowls that you put stuff in.
00:33:09
Speaker
It can be particularly fragile there.
00:33:13
Speaker
And you want to make sure that there aren't any chips in the piece or hairlines.
00:33:21
Speaker
Usually, since these pieces are so intricate, you can even, even if you're new at this, you could probably tell a restoration because it would just be so hard to conceal because they're so intricate.
00:33:34
Speaker
But one tip, because they're made of bone China, which is a type of porcelain, if you give it like a flick with your fingernail, it should make a really beautiful, nice ring.
00:33:45
Speaker
And then you know that there isn't like a crack somewhere that you can't see or some restoration.
00:33:51
Speaker
Love that tip.
00:33:55
Speaker
Zooming out a little, how does this piece fit into your larger mission or your objectives with Art Historic?
Art Historic's Mission and Focus on Female Makers
00:34:06
Speaker
So with Art Historic, my goal kind of for founding the gallery is to tell the stories of pieces that maybe...
00:34:16
Speaker
the general population doesn't know about.
00:34:19
Speaker
You know, that if you're not a collector of, for example, Daisy McKay Jones, you wouldn't really know anything about this piece.
00:34:25
Speaker
So I want to be able to tell the history and provide a platform for people to learn about it without even feeling the pressure to acquire it.
00:34:35
Speaker
They can just learn something new and find, you know, oh, maybe I'd like to follow this artist.
00:34:40
Speaker
And then the other thing, which is kind of a new direction for us, actually, I've begun to think about focusing on female makers and designers and telling their stories, because there are, you know, there are those stories there in ceramics history and relatively unknown.
00:35:02
Speaker
So,
00:35:05
Speaker
It's a new direction, actually.
00:35:07
Speaker
Maybe this podcast is my first announcement of this, which is exciting.
00:35:11
Speaker
Awesome.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah, so we're moving in that direction, and her work certainly fits well within
Podcast Credits
00:35:21
Speaker
that.
00:35:21
Speaker
Well, that's really exciting and a brilliant idea, and I'm excited to see what you turn up in the future.
00:35:30
Speaker
With that, I will say thank you very much, Bailey Titchener, for joining me on Curious Objects.
00:35:37
Speaker
This has been a pleasure.
00:35:38
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:35:39
Speaker
Thank you for having me.
00:35:43
Speaker
Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati.
00:35:47
Speaker
Sarah Bellotta does our social media and web support.
00:35:50
Speaker
Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
00:35:54
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
00:35:56
Speaker
And I'm Ben Miller.
00:36:18
Speaker
As a raider scavenging a derelict world, you settle into an underground settlement.
00:36:24
Speaker
But now you must return to the surface, where arc machines roam