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PolicyViz Podcast Episode #5: Maral Pourkazemi
144 Plays10 years ago
There are important and consequential issues to discuss when it comes to technological differences and disparities across different groups such as gender, race, ethnicities, or differences across countries. In this, the fifth episode of The PolicyViz Podcast, I speak with Maral...
The post PolicyViz Podcast Episode #5: Maral Pourkazemi appeared first on PolicyViz.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:10
Speaker
This is the policy of this podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. There are important and consequential issues to discuss when it comes to technological differences and disparities across different groups, such as gender and race, different ethnicities, differences across countries. These are all important issues when we think about using data and when we think about visualizing our data.
Minority Challenges and Middle East
00:00:33
Speaker
And so I'm really excited to have my guest today, Moral Porcazemi.
00:00:37
Speaker
And much of Maral's work is about challenges and differences in different minorities and challenges in the Middle East. So Maral, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you for inviting me. Great to see you again. I think we met first at Visualize, right? We did, yeah. We had a great conversation after my talk. That's right. Fantastic. About the about the infamous data perv. Absolutely. One of my favorite lines from the conference. We're going to get to that because
Background and Visualized Conferences
00:01:04
Speaker
It's super important. And I think your work really tries to get at a lot of that. So let's talk about that a bit. But let me ask you first to maybe introduce yourself a little bit for folks who aren't familiar with your work.
00:01:18
Speaker
Sure. So I'm a designer, a classic graphic design background, and I have an MA and a BA, and I studied in Germany. But I tried with my MIS, I tried focusing a little more on data visualization. So that is also where I am right now. Right.
00:01:41
Speaker
And with Visualize, you're sort of not just creating, but also sort of building these networks, right? Yeah, absolutely. So this is where I ended up from speaking about my work. I am currently also curating Visualized conferences, whether they are independently organized or the main event in New York, which is super exciting because you get to know all of these cool people.
DeepLab Project Overview
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, you sort of know everybody.
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. It's a great position to be in. Yeah, no, it is. It's great. So I want to start by talking about your project with the DeepLab project. It was in December of last year. You were in Pittsburgh at the Studio for Creative Inquiry Carnegie Mellon.
00:02:27
Speaker
It seems like of what I've read, a group of designers, software energy engineers, data viz folks, hackers, all sort of working on sort of critical assessments of digital culture. So can you tell me a little bit about the project?
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So this was initiated by Addie Wagenecht, who is a new media artist and sort of the director of the Deep Lab. The idea is to bring together a bunch of women, awesome women, who work in the field of
00:03:02
Speaker
art and technology and to focus on issues such as incident security, online privacy and also the name DeepLab comes from the DeepWhip basically. So we got together at the CMU together with Golan and basically we were at his studio for a week to
00:03:33
Speaker
create projects and texts and ideas all around these internet issues.
DeepLab Collaboration and Outcomes
00:03:42
Speaker
Well, privacy and security issues. So what came out of it was a book.
00:03:48
Speaker
that we made basically in five days only. It has 240 pages and several chapters that are written by the members of the DeepLab and another really cool thing that came out of it is a documentary and
00:04:10
Speaker
a series of lectures at the CME. Everything is also online and you can watch it, which is cool. So what was the experience working with, um, you know, so how many women were there for the week? The five days? At the CMU, how many people were there? Um, we are, what's the total of us? We are,
00:04:36
Speaker
I got to count this really quick. Three, four, five. I can just say the names, too. So it's Adi Wagenist, Alison Burge, Claire Evans, who wasn't there, unfortunately, but she contributed to the book.
00:04:53
Speaker
not being there, but it's absolutely cool. Denise Caruso, Harlow Holmes, Ingrid Burrington, Kate Crawford, Jen Lowe, Jillian York, Lindsay Lohan, Lori Krannar, Maddie Varner, myself, and Runa Sandvik from The Tor Project. A couple of others were there too, so I would say we are around 15 founding members.
00:05:21
Speaker
Um, and we are, uh, also meant to grow. We are not going to just stay. Oh, okay. So it's kind of like a one-off. No, but, um, exactly. So this is something that we are currently sort of establishing or figuring out. Um, that we, I mean, this was for us, it was clear from the beginning, um, that we wanted to, uh, recruit more, more deep lab members. Um,
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, so this is it. So I guess I have, well, lots of questions really, but let me. Was there like a driving sort of like single goal or issue, or was it sort of like, let's just talk about contemporary culture, digital culture, or was there sort of like one single like goal or point or issue you wanted to address? So this was a really interesting
00:06:19
Speaker
process that we had there because we did not have one single goal. The goal was to make a book and a documentary. But what would come in the book? We didn't know in the beginning. So we all came to the space and sat around the table and thought, what are we going to do now? But this way, it was so free and it was so
00:06:47
Speaker
you know you didn't we had to create the boundaries for ourselves which was it's always challenging but it's always also really a lot of fun right and
00:06:57
Speaker
And so through that, we basically brainstormed a lot about topics that are interesting for us and things that we want to do as hackers, as designers, as researchers. And we tried to merge some of those ideas. And so we had a couple of group works and a couple of individual works, but then everything came together in the book.
Gender Balance in Tech and Data Visualization
00:07:21
Speaker
And it kind of tuned in very well, right? So the tonality of it is quite similar and there's not a lot of, you know, there's not a lot of, how can you say, oh, English.
00:07:39
Speaker
Well, let's say it was just a good collaboration, especially not having worked with any of these women before, to have come together and being able to make a book in this incredibly short amount of time and getting a print ready by the end.
00:08:01
Speaker
Which was also nuts. I bet, yeah. And what was the experience like of like working with, I mean, I don't know all of these, all of the participants, I only know a few of them, but I mean, I've looked through most of their portfolios for a lot of them. I mean, some incredible work that many of them do. What was that experience like? And I guess one question is, did you feel like,
00:08:26
Speaker
Was there, was there having like 15, you know, really smart women in a room? Was that both liberating, but also like, are we missing some viewpoints? Was there a couple extra to it or, or it was like, no, no, no, this is good. There's no guys here. This is really good.
00:08:40
Speaker
Well, that first of all, yes. That was good to just have women around. But, you know, there's this thing that we women have and we like to feel... I don't know if we can say that we like to feel that, but we tend to feel humiliated by each other if there are too many awesome people around. So that was...
00:09:02
Speaker
that everyone was just so humbled and like so so happy to be there and at the same time we were just looking up to each other and that was that the atmosphere was just insane I mean it was probably one of the most beautiful experiences I had in my life
00:09:20
Speaker
And in this short amount of time, you're not only being creative together and productive together, but you're getting to know the people too. And let me tell you, all these women are so fucking awesome.
00:09:34
Speaker
they are and and i can say that it wasn't only for the deep lab but we all mean we became really good friends and and states you know so that is also part of the drive that's that we have together and why we also want to take it forward is that there's a such a great energy between us and it's very important also for future members to uh... to not just be a member right so the personalities are also super important to you
00:10:06
Speaker
So I spoke with Eric Klotz from Visualize a couple weeks ago and we talked about some of the challenges that we've had, the three of us really, of pulling together this Visualize political data conference in DC in a week or so, and he sort of felt like, and I agree, like the gender balance in sort of data visualization
00:10:28
Speaker
seems to be pretty good. There's a lot of women doing really impressive stuff, but my guess would be, and just from not really being in the culture of software engineer and hackers, that sort of group. I mean, at least I know in economics, it's a very male dominated group.
00:10:48
Speaker
So I wonder like did you all sort of talk about the differences in these various fields of the gender balance? Or was it mostly just focused on sort of the deep, you know, the security and the privacy and the gender issues were sort of just like, you know, undercurrent? I think even in this part of like branch or genre, you can say,
00:11:19
Speaker
there is a there is still a lot more men than women uh... but but i don't feel like i don't know if i can speak for everyone but i me as a woman i don't feel uh... i don't feel bad about uh... let me phrase this in a better way this could backfire
00:11:49
Speaker
So what do I want to say? I want to say that being a woman in this field, let's call it art and technology and database, is indeed pleasant. You're well-received. Nobody really disses you. And so I think
00:12:14
Speaker
Eric is right. There's a good balance, I think. The gender balance is great. And art and technology too. And now also being in the deep lab, I learned a lot more about the scene too. And I know a lot more people, a lot more women who are in the field of art and technology.
00:12:41
Speaker
Boy, their work is respected. This is a place, I think it's data visualization and the field of art and technology. They are sort of part of a solution. Can you say that? Something like that? This is something that other genres could learn from, right? So yeah, so maybe it is a solution, yeah. Yeah.
00:13:10
Speaker
looking at cotton and eric was also completely right that it was difficult to start to find uh... women to speak at the political events right that is true uh... but look at resonates for example i just came back from from belgrade and there was a great balance and and really kick ass women on stage and zach lieberman also he was there too and he
00:13:37
Speaker
He quoted just women in his presentation. And that was, that felt great. You know, that just, I mean, especially him being part of this big scene. He also mentioned the Deep Web. And so you can see that
00:13:57
Speaker
Although it doesn't feel that, we don't really, I don't feel marginalized as a woman in the field, right? But it's still important to have initiatives like the Deep Lab. And you can see it, you can feel and see it by the responses we get from it, right?
00:14:17
Speaker
DeepLab, having become this really cool thing, is proof for everyone to realize that we're still not done yet.
Impact of Data Visualization on the World
00:14:29
Speaker
Even in our field, right? Good luck cutting this.
00:14:41
Speaker
Let's totally shift gears. A lot of your work deals with Middle East. You have done a lot of work on culture and politics in Iran, Iranian internet freedom, issues on minorities.
00:14:58
Speaker
So let me ask this philosophical question. So can data visualization, and I feel like data visualization is sort of a broad, I'm using a sort of a broad thing here, but can data visualization change the world? Can it impact the way we think about things? I guess the sort of the real question is can visualizing data in better ways can actually make an impact? So how much time do we have left?
00:15:28
Speaker
Definitely not enough, that is for sure. Okay, maybe that needs a second podcast too. Or a conference about it, maybe. Let's do a conference about this. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know how to measure it. I mean, I know in RICO, Bertini's really interested in like, what makes an effective visualization? And I don't know, I mean, I think for me, an effective visualization ultimately ends up changing some policy, right?
00:15:56
Speaker
That's the ultimate goal. But that's an impossible bar. That's an impossible metric. Yeah, I wonder how many of our work has changed something in policies. I think that the first step... Okay, so this is a really long conversation, but I'm trying to keep it short. There are a couple of things that are interesting, right? So how much of our work... I think if we would go down a level
00:16:27
Speaker
from policies going to just individual level as we can start, right? So if somebody looks at your work, what do they take away from it? Do they learn something from it?
00:16:41
Speaker
I'm not sure if data visualization is a tool that we can only measure after several years or something like that because you're delivering knowledge in a visual way and you hope that people learn from it and change their behavior from it.
00:17:02
Speaker
Just how can you measure awareness that's probably the other question right so those people who have successfully digested your visualization how can you measure that they have
00:17:16
Speaker
learned from it. I think that's the, because it's not only just looking at a piece and then waiting for change to happen, because there are so many steps in between, right? And I think even data visualization is just one node in this, in the string of actions that have to be, or that are part of the process of change.
00:17:43
Speaker
Right. Change is also such a big word, right? Is change actually something that is realistic to achieve? Or do we even have to step down from that a little bit? Right.
00:18:00
Speaker
thinking about the future of graphic design or the present of graphic design. And I think Stephanie Poslovic has said it too. I'd resonate that she sees data as her medium, right? And there was, I think there was also either Wired or, I think it was a Wired article where they said that data is becoming the new medium for designers.
Data Visualization as Art and Education
00:18:28
Speaker
What does that mean? It informs the form, as Stephanie really wisely says, but what kind of forms do we want to shape? And so this is where it gets even more meta. Because data visualization is not only
00:18:54
Speaker
educational but it's also fun and it's also cool and it looks great and it can be art and it can be this and it can be that, right? So this is where we're moving towards. There's so much we can create with Theta. So I think in order to, if we talk about change, we would have to slice and start categorizing. Yeah, what do we actually mean by change?
00:19:18
Speaker
Right, so data art, I don't think it can change, it can just make culture. I'm sorry. It's definitely, you know, data art is culture.
00:19:34
Speaker
And so is data visualization as a whole. It's a difficult topic. And because there's so many different people doing so many different types of data visualization, it's sort of hard to say. If you're a 538 or a Vox or New York Times, your goals are different than if you are an advocate or if you're a nonprofit or if you're a government agency. Those are all different goals.
00:20:00
Speaker
And if you're a newspaper or a media group, you're trying to inform people. But if you're a government agency, you're trying to have politicians maybe change their behavior in some way.
00:20:16
Speaker
that's right this is another thing that comes in and that people you would have to take into account is what is your aims up with great team do you want to work on twitter well then it's just a bar chart then or it's something else something that is easily adjustable which is fine you know but that bar chart i doubt it will change anything you know that's right that's right and and the projects that i see that
00:20:44
Speaker
You know, you tell me, John, you tell me what projects have stuck into your mind, like projects that are unforgettable for you and that you keep referring back to as good examples of data visualization. Right, and so I can do that and I can give you my list, but I'm probably a bad example because I use them, I talk about them over and over again because I teach, but there are ones that like stick in my head, like Periscopics, Gunviz,
00:21:09
Speaker
pitches, drones, viz. Of course they came at the same time. The Wall Street Journal one that came out a little while ago on different vaccines. The Guardian did one a few years ago on gay rights in the United States. I mean, there are a few that have stuck with me, but do they stick with me because I'm interested in those issues?
00:21:28
Speaker
Do they stick with me because they're great sort of pieces of work in visualization? I don't know and of course that's why we have academics sort of doing more and more I think of this research. That's really interesting. Those are exactly my favorite works too. And we did not set that up beforehand. That was awesome. Yeah so those are also like when I have, so when I went to Orange County just
00:21:59
Speaker
this year to visit my relatives they asked me what do you do and I tried to explain it it was difficult to say okay you know what I'm just gonna show you pictures now that will be easier for you to understand so I started off with showing them a few of my works and then and then they really you know people who have this is also one thing that we have to take into account again which is not everybody knows what data visualization is yeah that's right yeah for us it's so you know we totally know what it is and it's it's part of our lives
00:22:28
Speaker
But for the ordinary audience, or it's called, it's just a majority of people. It's the majority of people. We're just going to be honest about that. They look at it. They look at it and I showed them the drones piece from Wes and Pitch Interactive and
00:22:48
Speaker
They were probably in a shock for 15 minutes after they saw the piece, after they interacted with it. And then I kept on showing them different examples, motion graphics, and there was one about soil that I showed them, and also their kids, which was interesting.
00:23:10
Speaker
demographics again. Yeah, so motion graphics work very well for kids because it's easy to easily, you know, if it's done in a child, you know, you don't know what it's, yeah. So that can be appealing for them and they were paying attention all the time. Distracted just even a second and it was actually fascinating for me to just watch how they were
00:23:40
Speaker
getting all of this and asking questions after it. Because that's what I think is the best thing. That further sort of interaction with the generating more questions and more interest. Generating more questions is super important. If you get people to do that, you're on the right path.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's right. Well, this has been great. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for inviting.
00:24:05
Speaker
It was great to speak to you. Great. Thanks to everyone out there for listening. If you have questions or comments or people you'd like to hear from, please let me know. You can send me an email or hit me up on Twitter or visit the website at policyvis.com. I'm John Schwabisch and this has been the Policy Vis Podcast. Thanks for listening.