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E 27: A CPB Planning Manager's Take on the Future of the Discipline
66 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Jason & Carlos are joined by Adam Walter, Planning Manager at CPB.
The three discuss the future of Planners; what the role will look like and how important it will be in construction in the future. They also delve into Adam's experience in how to bring engineers & planners together for successful project delivery.
What do Planners and GPS have in common? Listen to find out!
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode 27 of the Offsite Podcast, where we chat all things construction and technology. My name's Carlos Caballo. And I'm Jason Lanzini. G'day, Carlos. How are you?
00:00:11
Speaker
Pretty good. Thanks. How are you doing? I'm good, mate. Uh, I think for those that would have listened like in order and listened to the last episode, there was a, there was a distinct sound of someone screaming, like a small child screaming in the background. Luckily we're recording this, uh, on Halloween. So I think we're, I think we've avoided the issue for this, this week at least.
00:00:32
Speaker
It did cross my mind to, to joke to you that we were doing it in fancy dress just to see if there's a small chart you turn out with a mask on. So today we have a guest joining us. This is a topic that like I've put forward and I've wanted to talk about for a while in this forum. And I guess to set it up before I intro the guest,
00:01:01
Speaker
One of the things that we see at AFex when we talk to lots and lots of projects in both, you know, in the UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Asia is a pretty
00:01:14
Speaker
interesting divide between projects where there's this sort of cohesive relationship between the planning project controls functions and the construction delivery teams and other projects where there's a kind of odd divide or tension and
Integrating Planning and Construction Teams
00:01:32
Speaker
Today's guest is a planning manager with lots and lots of experience in major infrastructure projects in Australia. He works for CPP. So for those in the UK, it's one of, if not the largest contractor in Australia. And is currently the planning manager on a major infrastructure project in Sydney called the Waringa Freeway upgrade. Adam Walter is joining us. Adam, thank you very much for taking the time, mate.
00:02:02
Speaker
Josh and Carlos, thanks for having me. Now, Adam, the reason I thought it would be pertinent to have you to join us for this conversation is that you definitely, like in my opinion, from what I've observed and talking to the people that you work with and seeing how you sort of interact with people on your project, sort of epitomize that one extreme of that relationship, which is kind of this planning and construction team working together ethos.
00:02:30
Speaker
But maybe to set up and set the scene and sort of set up the conversation, I kind of posited this idea that there's, you get teams in both camps. One where there's a bit of finger pointing, barge, silo, disconnected. People don't, left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. And then there's sort of this healthy relationship. Is that something that you would agree exists?
00:02:52
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And I think if I look back at my career and my journey, I probably started at the other end of the spectrum. My background was I started as a consultant. I got straight into planning and was fortunate enough to start on an infrastructure project where I was that guy, that planner that sits in the corner and bashes away at P6.
00:03:16
Speaker
not really having much sort of understanding or input into what was going out on site. And I think slowly as my career has progressed, I've been able to navigate to what you describe today, being much more integrated with the construction team. And to get to that state of integration,
00:03:34
Speaker
I imagine it's a very active process to get there. It's probably, I wouldn't call it the like default relationship. I think on average, it feels like it's easy for people to by default sink into like, this is my job. That's your job. Whether it's a problem, you do your job, I do my job type of attitude. Do you think that's true? And what does it take to have that more collaborative or connected approach?
Planners' Role and Collaboration with Engineers
00:04:00
Speaker
So I think there's a couple of aspects to it, but I think for me, I look at planning and project controls as really needing to be an extension of that delivery team and not sit separately. And certainly I think from my experience in Australia, there's a lot of, not just the accountability, but the responsibility for everything across.
00:04:19
Speaker
an infrastructure project ultimately sits with our engineers while we've got all the functional supports. They're primarily responsible for delivering an input into everything. And effectively when you look at an integrated master program, that's what it is. So it makes sense that then you need to really team up with the construction team and the guys who are delivering it to make your program happen and make it work.
00:04:43
Speaker
And so, but like to double-click on that, what does it actually like take on a day-to-day, week-to-week goal-setting basis to have a team that kind of gets there? Yeah. So step one for me, and the most important thing is as a planner, you need to be sitting amongst the construction team. So not next to the secretary, not next to the office manager, not outside the project director's office. You need to be sitting in and amongst all the engineers. And controversially not work from home.
00:05:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's a different topic and a challenging topic. But I think in terms of if you want to develop high performing teams and you want that real integration, I say to my team that you guys need to be in there with your engineers. And then an extension to myself and certainly something I learned from the Life Project is I sit outside the construction director's office.
00:05:38
Speaker
like literally outside his door because it's the same relationship no matter which way you look at it. And so he's very quick to be able to pull me in. I probably eavesdrop far too much and pull myself in. But that's effectively the way that I see it is step one unit you'd be sitting in and amongst the construction team. And then I think the next part is
00:05:58
Speaker
When I look at the short-term planning process that we run with, it's my guys need to be there and attending and they may not think they're getting a lot of value from it that they can sort of sit there and take the short-term program. But the planners who add a lot of value, in my opinion, are the ones
00:06:18
Speaker
who then while they're talking through their short-term programs is providing input as to what would happen in the long-term program based on some of those decisions. So for me, that's a couple of the key aspects.
00:06:30
Speaker
I think, which is interesting, there's a fine line to walk, especially when it comes to like that short term planning. Carlos, you probably see this a bit in the UK where you can easily see that helpful planner as things get busy on the project, cross over the line to essentially doing the short term plan.
00:06:50
Speaker
engineers. Is that something that you see Carlos and then and then Adam is that like a risk? Yeah I think there's that I think teams to understand like where the sort of the line is so for us and what you said earlier Adam about like the planners need to be in and amongst the engineers in the office obviously I'm from a commercial background and it was essential that you actually sit with the engineers because it's everything that's
00:07:15
Speaker
useful, relevant, and current, like you hear just from sitting around the team, right? Otherwise you're sort of away and only seeing the world through the commercial communication sort of aspect. So that's super important, but I think there is, there's definitely this responsibility line. So for example, some planners on projects sort of, they really struggle to let go of the short term plan because they feel like it's an extension of the master schedule, which needs to be controlled and constrained and like monitored in this rigorous way.
00:07:44
Speaker
a well-performing project is this is what we plan to do and it's about monitoring the difference and seeing where they differ. Not stopping them change it but actually what do they plan to do around the field is the most important information you could possibly get to then think about the master schedule and the effect on the program milestone and everything else. So I think there is that line. Here the best projects we see
00:08:07
Speaker
It is the edge. It is wholly owning those plans, but yeah, a hundred percent we see planners that don't want to let go of anything. And they think plan is their responsibility, especially when you look at non-infrastructure and you get into the building world. Delivery teams don't really own the schedule. They sort of mark up copies that are printed off of the core program. So yeah, I think there's a line, there's a sweet spot that works really well for sure. Yeah. To make sure that the responsibility lies with those, like actually accountable to delivering those works.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yeah. Um, congratulations for 27 episodes in a row mentioning from a commercial or quantity surveyor background. So for those fighting the drinking game, uh, that nuts the queue. Adam, is that, is that like, uh, planners like being too helpful, uh, thing that you think is a real thing or no?
00:08:56
Speaker
No, it absolutely is, but I take it probably a different view to it these days. And look, I've been there myself where I've done that, trying to help out, think it's the right thing. But when you take a step back and have a look at it, what's the purpose of the short-term program? So for me, the purpose of the short-term program is for the engineers and the supervisors to plan their works.
00:09:19
Speaker
for the next three weeks and coordinate amongst their other teams. And a by-product of that is then its usefulness and input into the integrator master program. If my construction teams don't want to do a short-term program, then they don't have to, right? And what I mean by that is that the short-term planning process, I'm not accountable for, I've got a program, right?
00:09:45
Speaker
I manage the integrated master program, right? For me, the short-term planning process is for our construction teams. And what we get from that is super helpful and super important and it drives accountability and ownership. But if my construction teams don't want to do it.
00:10:02
Speaker
Don't do it, no problems. I know what will happen. We've all seen it where projects will go a certain way with teams that don't do that. But yeah, I try to tell my guys that, but I think it's something that comes from experience. And I think, you know, it's fortunate now these days, there's some short-term planning tools out there where you can see who is moving the tasks around and doing the status. So it helps me with some ominous conversations with people in my team.
00:10:32
Speaker
Um, there's nowhere to hide these days. So, but so, yeah, what you're saying is like, uh, uh, over index on supporting people that want to make it work, but not doing people's job for them is I kind of, yeah, correct. If someone, if a team is doing a short-term program, just to tick a box because they're supposed to do it as part of the weekly process, I would say don't do it. Like it's, it's not adding any value, right? I can still update my integrated master program without it.
00:11:00
Speaker
You as a planner updating that is not going to drive anything happening on site, right? It's a different conversation that needs to be had, which is a difficult one as to why are you not doing it? Why are you not buying it? Um, but again, that's something that from my point of view comes with, with the experience and having seen the wheels fall off and then you put the wheels
Ownership and Accountability in Planning
00:11:21
Speaker
back on and try and move forward. Awesome. Carlos, you had a question before.
00:11:26
Speaker
I was actually asking the same thing you were then. But another thing to touch on there. So you mentioned that members of the construction team don't want to do a short-term plan. You enforce them. That sounds like it's an optional thing. So do projects not mandate this process that seems core to everything that they're doing? Or is it more of a case of they're reverting back to a whiteboard or a different method of communication? Surely they can't do nothing.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah. So I would say from my experience, it is mandated, but the accountability and the ownership sits with the construction team. So I, it's mandated and expected from the construction director. And we use a few techniques that my team do. As an example, we will email out the short-term programs to the whole team.
00:12:16
Speaker
on a weekly basis, the level of detail that go into that programs, I can see who's really buying into it and who's really not. And look, there's different ways to do it. Do you know what I mean? While it's mandated, they're not all doing it to really add value to help drive site. Some people are just doing it to tick a box.
00:12:39
Speaker
touching on the project control side of your role. When you go about defining a process or when we think about the collection of data,
00:12:50
Speaker
Is that another line that's quite easy to cross where you could end up putting burden on a team to do something which enables project controls to function well and not like the project controls function, like gathering data to do that, if that makes sense. Like how do you draw the line there? So it's not like a non-value ad for the delivery team. Cause they feel like they're doing something just to like enable a report, which they don't care for.
00:13:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I think I try and give my guys a pretty free reign in that space to try and look for avenues where they may think they can help the delivery team and the construction team and come up with ideas. And sometimes I'll do it myself and sometimes I'll present something and I can see it just doesn't quite hit the mark or other times I'll present something and I can see it sort of resonates.
00:13:40
Speaker
I think in the planning and project control space, I think that's part of your role is to try and have a look at different avenues to where you cannot value. You look at things through a different lens, you've got access to data in a different way, and you're dealing with people and relationships
00:13:58
Speaker
And people who do things differently and something might work for one team that doesn't work for another. So I'm pretty open about that. I think try and find something that works for you that strikes the balance and can make a bit of a difference. Carlos, that's a super interesting question as well. Like tying together something Adam said before about how it's like the engineers that deliver the job and your question around adding processes or things for them to do in order to generate a report.
00:14:27
Speaker
There's so many examples that I see where supposedly like support functions, uh, aren't really supporting. They're like adding work for the engineer. It's like they're flipping it and they're not support. They're like a, well, whatever the support is, if I've had better English, I'd put the right word in there. So yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's the one we'll put that in post. So, uh, Adam, um, I heard a rumor a while ago that at some point you had like flirted with the idea of going down sort of an engineering or construction path, which kind of got me thinking around like, is there something to the idea that like the best platters and planning teams have.
00:15:17
Speaker
a sort of affinity for the construction team or even come from that background to know where the thoughts on that. Yeah. So, I mean, I've picked up on an earlier podcast that Carlos has said the best planners he's worked with have all come from in a construction background. And I'm happy to sit here and say, I haven't come from a construction background. As I touched on, in a lot of ways, if I'm honest, I took the easy route and joined a consultancy straight after uni.
00:15:44
Speaker
Part of that was a good family friend of mine was a graduate engineer with a tier one contractor. And I saw the impact that was put on him early days, having to work six days a week, work all around the country. And it wasn't for me, but I do have a civil engineering degree. I do have an affinity for construction. I do enjoy it. I do enjoy aspects of site. So that drive and that desire is there. I think, you know, the reason I flirted with the idea of it Jason was that
00:16:12
Speaker
The challenge you have in being a planner is you're not Maverick, you're Goose, right? And let's be honest.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I think a big part of it was that you're not in control, right? So you can do all these reports. You can work as closely with the teams, but you're not in control of the program. It's up to others to go and deliver it. So if you want control of the program, the best way is to then go on, you know, go into a delivery role.
00:16:43
Speaker
And it took me a long time to sort of be comfortable with that. And once I became comfortable with my decision, it then really opened my mind as to, okay, well, how can I then help the construction teams and best influence and work with them to deliver it?
00:16:58
Speaker
But it's a common conversation I have with planners is that there's only so much you can do, but don't hold yourself accountable or don't value your input based on delivering to the program. If you've done everything you can to help the team.
00:17:16
Speaker
Um, and the engineer can't order concrete, can't order Rio puts in his RSI the day before a big lift, knowing that he can't do it. There's nothing you can do about that, but it's, it's difficult. It's difficult.
00:17:31
Speaker
Which it does sound like, from the outside, that might sound like tough love for the engine. Like you're essentially saying like, you've got to do your job and the planning's function is to take any steps that they can possibly think to enable that job.
The Role of Planners as Project Guides
00:17:51
Speaker
But like, then they're not going to basically, it can lead to also water, but you can't make a drink type of thing.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah, so I had a conversation with one of my teams. So planning and project controls often gets forgotten about at milestone events, right? You know, the engineers all get a thanks, even though they haven't really done much. They just stood around and saw that girl to get lifted, but shelled out a whole heap of paperwork before end.
00:18:18
Speaker
Um, a few of the key functions often get, you know, environment comms and planning typically gets missed and forgotten. And I suppose as I've gone in my career, I've gotten used to that, but a few people in my team and that I work with get a little bit upset by that. And what I said to them is, you know, we're the GPS right in a lot of ways. So we provide the guidance and the way forward. Um, and we can give you a time of when we think you'll get to your destination, right.
00:18:46
Speaker
No one thanks their GPS when they arrive at their destination on time, but they sure as hell blame it and blow up at it if you're late and it takes you down the wrong route, right? So when you think about planning in that sense is be the best GPS and guidance that you can be, but at the end of the day, someone else is behind the wheel.
00:19:05
Speaker
I had another question, but I kind of will just lean into that conversation. So with this analogy of the GPS, if you're thinking forward 5, 10, 15, however many years you want to forecast forward, what does the role of the platter become? Is it the same? Does it change? Are we still using PC? I guess put the tools aside a bit, but what does the role of the platter become? To become more significant or less?
00:19:32
Speaker
I think for me, from my experience, the role of the planner has become more significant because these infrastructure projects from my experience have become a lot more difficult, a lot more complicated. And I've seen the construction team has to gravitate more to the program for guidance and direction and understanding where those risks lie.
00:19:56
Speaker
that may be dormant and not seen. What it looks like in 10 years, I don't know. I know you guys have had a lot of couple episodes around AI and I haven't delved too much into that. I think the tool for me that has really changed a lot in the last five years has been Power BI and I see a lot of planners and I really encourage my team to get to use Power BI. That has changed the conversation instantly for me because
00:20:22
Speaker
I would walk into a lot of monthly meetings and look at reports and we're often questioning the data. You know, Excel graphs can easily be manipulated. Every senior manager wants a graph to look slightly differently from the same data set. Instead of the sort of down, they like it to go up.
00:20:42
Speaker
Well, yeah, there's that. Um, but when it leaks directly into P six or any other data source, the data doesn't
Tools and Technology Impact on Planning
00:20:52
Speaker
lie. Yeah. We used to have a, we used to have a construction manager looking after a certain scope of a project that I worked on before. And he had this sort of regular stick would go into like a monthly, um, plan review.
00:21:08
Speaker
project director, all the big wigs sitting around the table, one team after another would come in and present where they were up to in the week. And every time he'd roll into the meeting, like he'd start talking about where they'd gotten up to, someone would put some slides up that someone in his team has made and he'd go, oh, that shit's all wrong. And so he kind of just like, all the data's wrong. Here's what's really going on. Walk out again. And then by like the sixth time that he does that, you go,
00:21:34
Speaker
I think he's just covering for the bad numbers by saying all the data's wrong. So yeah, you're like, if you've got the data pulling directly from some trusted source in like something like that, it does change. You can't, you can't do six times in a row. Yeah, it, it, it changes the conversation. I mean, I was going to say, I remember when I started on a project about 10 years ago and I literally had nine graphs.
00:21:59
Speaker
on a page and now I don't need to do that. I have one page and nine options to filter and you can slice and dice how you go. So yeah, so to answer your question in 10 years, I don't know in all honesty, but yeah, I see certainly from my experience that the role of the planner has become more valuable.
00:22:18
Speaker
I think I agree. It goes, it continues to probably go that way, especially as like, as you said, the jobs get more complex and more and more of like the risk seems to get lumped into the contractor. It's a big opportunity to both make and lose a lot of money. The program's not managed properly. Yeah. It's just going to add to that. I think.
00:22:39
Speaker
And we see it at the moment here on every major job. Like everyone knows margins are slim, productivity is awful, and all the usual stats that we see about construction projects. But there's this huge swing and focus now to productivity rates, measuring them, taking rates, plugging them into master schedules, seeing the impact on your end dates. Every day, everyone knows what they're doing, how they did, like a car production type environment. That's only gonna make the planner exponentially more important because
00:23:08
Speaker
No one else is using that data in a meaningful way to actually monitor that and keep on top of it. There's no project manager with enough time to sit on top of that. And it's the data that's the collective of the engineers. So I can see planners getting more less goose for Maverick to say a statement. Because that focus, it has to go through a planning team. And they are going to be the ones directing it. Because if you're less productive on these tasks,
00:23:35
Speaker
And you're more here, like, are we switching resource? How does that affect the critical path? What should we be focusing on? And all of that knowledge has to come from the master schedule. So I think we're going to see quite a shift based on that, particularly in the UK.
00:23:47
Speaker
I was just going to say, I guess, leading to what you were just saying, Carlos, about tracking, tracking articles, tracking production. It got me thinking about if the planning function does start to own that, there's a bunch of systems that link plan and performance together and generate outputs in things like Power BI.
00:24:09
Speaker
And one of the ones that comes to mind is a site diary or where the production comes in through dockers and things like that. That's a conversation we've had before, Carlos. Adam, do you see a place where the planning function owns systems and that whole system of how we plan and report back against the plan and end up becoming even a broader scope?
00:24:36
Speaker
I think so, but I think when you cut back to what's the basis of a productivity, it still steps in a planning process. The one for me that I'm familiar with is piling productivity. So on my current project, we've done a lot of piling and we came out with a certain production rate. Typically what I will often see is that
00:24:58
Speaker
the production rate that just gets fed in to the level five is what the subby says because they're the expert, right? But when I drive past the job at 7.30, eight o'clock and yes, I'm not a site guy, I'm a planning guy. But when I don't see the piling rig spinning at 7.30 in the morning, then there's a problem there, right? There's a reason for that. So I think
00:25:19
Speaker
For me, we do a lot of that tracking in terms of that piling, but I think the value that you need is experience people around making sure that piling rig is spinning at 7.30 in the morning and then making sure that they can pour concrete before that end of shift and you're not pouring it the next day. So we have a role to play in trying to help and monitor that.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's all I sort of said. It's to experience people from a construction point of view to drive that and to look to increase it.
00:25:54
Speaker
Going back to your prior point about how you've got this trusted data now and you've got tools like Power BI where you can help the construction team understand how they're performing, what the plan is, etc. You don't see then your scope or the planning scope starting to be about defining how we're tracking the actuals through different systems in general and basically getting more of that trusted data.
00:26:19
Speaker
Like I could just imagine a world where that planning function starts to own like what you would call project controls, I guess, and it's like becomes.
00:26:27
Speaker
No, absolutely.
Expanding Planning Roles in Projects
00:26:29
Speaker
I think the extension we sort of have at the moment, maybe not in the extent you're talking is, I suppose because I've seen a lot of planning and project controls professionals with say a bit of experience in Power BI, we're starting to reach out to help the design team with some comments tracking or the traffic team on my current job, we've set up a number of reports.
00:26:53
Speaker
to help them track how they're going. And in a roundabout way, again, that drives accountability with some other functions that may not have had that before. Construction teams are used to that, but some other functions that need to deliver hasn't necessarily been there. So yeah, I definitely see that growth into that space to help broaden that sort of reporting environment. Awesome.
Conclusion and Appreciation
00:27:18
Speaker
Mate, thank you very much. I think we're probably short on time, but I want to finish by saying, yeah, there's very few platters that I've interacted with that are held in such high regard as Adam. So, Adam, thank you very much for taking the time for talking with us, and thank you everyone for listening. Cheers, Adam. No worries. Thanks, Josh. Thanks, Gallus.