Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Nicole Wagner: The Psychology of Authentic Truth
501 Plays7 days ago
In this intimate conversation, Laura sits down with her longtime friend and clinical social worker Nicole Wagner to explore what it really means to heal. From DBT and IFS to mindfulness and “wise mind,” this episode unpacks the practical tools that help us move out of all-or-nothing thinking and back into clarity, connection, and self-trust.
They trace Nicole’s path into therapy — shaped by caregiving, art, and a deep curiosity about people’s stories — and examine what brings people into therapy in the first place: the longing to be seen, heard, and understood. At the heart of the conversation is a powerful truth: we are often overwhelmed not by reality, but by the noise of our own thinking.
If you’ve ever wondered how to communicate your needs, navigate relationship limits, or reconnect with your authentic self, this episode offers grounded, practical insight.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of the Host and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, you, you.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Art of Authenticity. I am here with a very old friend. Wow, when I said that, I thought, wow, that makes us seem old. I'm so sorry, Nick, but um very old friend. We've known each other since high school, which...
00:00:42
Speaker
and We didn't say it before the show, but we both promise privately not to share stories that shouldn't be aired. But um I'm really grateful to have her here. She's just an exceptional person, a beautiful friend, somebody I admire and respect. And i know you guys are going to love everything she has to say. um She is a clinical social worker. She does psychotherapy and um works actively in something called DBT and IFS and has worked in trauma. And I'll let her explain her story her own way. But um but so much cool information and advice and somebody who over decades, Nick, I have ah had great conversations with. So thank you so much for coming today.
00:01:27
Speaker
Thank you for that beautiful introduction. I'm very excited to be here. ah Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Guest's Journey to Becoming a Healer
00:01:34
Speaker
I was, um, I want to get into the systems you teach and like why you felt called to learn DBT and IFS and for people who are like, what the fuck is that? Um, we will explain, but, um,
00:01:50
Speaker
yeah I don't know if I know how you made the decision to um go down this path of becoming a healer, wanting to help people um ah with these methodologies specifically is one question, but like, really, what was the moment? Was it college? Was it after graduate school? Was there like this moment when, I don't, I mean, as much as we hang out or I i know your story, I don't know this part. So what was that? Was there a moment or it kind of a slow decision?
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, i mean like you said, we've known each other for a really long time. And you know my family, you know my history, you know where I come from. And when I think of how I ended up where I am today, i do think about mother, my mother.
00:02:39
Speaker
um I think about the fact that she was a spiritual person and a very loving person, a very accepting person. And there was a lot I got out of that relationship.
00:02:53
Speaker
um As you know, my mother was sick for many years. And i think that I was sort of molded into a caretaking role from an early age.
00:03:06
Speaker
Mm-hmm. third a child. um you know I was her companion and um i that made me feel really good.
00:03:17
Speaker
So i think that that feeling was something that I continued to seek and it just came through human connection.
00:03:31
Speaker
And so when you were in college, were you like, this is what I want to do? Or when did you decide to make that into a career um rather than just being a great friend everybody you meet? Because to know you is like to know that that's true. Your desire for caretaking and being there is very high. Like you're great at asking questions and like engaging me. But like, when did you want to like make that a professional career?
The Intersection of Art and Therapy
00:03:58
Speaker
Well, I think when you know when we're in college and those big questions kind of come up, like, what do you want to do with your life, right? and um Art was always something that was interesting to me. i actually had ah ah my major in fine arts and I was doing painting and drawing. um And i I stumbled upon an art therapy class as an an extracurricular and that looked interesting. So I took that class and that's when I realized, wow, I can i can do art and help people.
00:04:28
Speaker
um That was a great moment. And then another great moment was when someone had said to me, well, Art therapy is very niche. It's a small kind of narrow path. If you decide to be a therapist in general, you can treat all sorts of people and use lots of modalities and you can use art and it will just open your world.
00:04:51
Speaker
So I took that advice and I got my master's in social work. So funny, right? You just have like that one conversation with that one person and it hits some kind of weird chord. You know, i was standing in college. I was a philosophy undergraduate and um this guy, Dianne, we were TA-ing logic of all things together my senior year of college. And he just looks at me and he goes, you should go to graduate school.
00:05:19
Speaker
like so random. And I was like, you're right. It's like, you know, it's like these knowings that somebody just kind of turns that switch or something. And you just have this sense of like, oh, right. You're right. And he just handed me um the the application that he was going to use. He said, you should apply. This weird guy who I didn't even care that much about. I just, I was like, yep. And I just applied. That was that.
00:05:45
Speaker
Right,
Maintaining Inner Connection
00:05:46
Speaker
right. Well, you talk about that knowing. And that just kind of caught my attention, because I think that that's um a lot of what I want to offer to people is to help them find that knowing. Because I do think that for a lot of people that's lost.
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah. And that developed over time. That's not something I initially knew was important. um But that's, yeah, yeah, are seeking. Oh, I mean, right. I think that's like in my work, I mean, the art of authenticity, the reason I do the work I do.
00:06:21
Speaker
I think it's it's it's there at times, but it's quite elusive. And as life gets harder or more loud or difficult, it's it's that connection to that elusive knowing or your trust in it, I suppose, wanes, wax and wanes over life. you know Sometimes I feel that solid yes, and I'm young, and i'm'm I'm like, yeah, my friend told me, and I'm going to go to grad school. And then there's other times where I start adulting so much that I get in my head and I um let it start making decisions. And you wake up and and realize, oh my God, what what is this? why Why do I have this life? I i don't want any of this. it It makes sense. It's practical. It's logical. People might approve of of it, whatever, but um that knowing is missing. And that's when life stops being fun, you know? It's like...
00:07:10
Speaker
Well, talking back to our history. And when you said that, it just made me think of the talking head song. You know, this is not my beautiful house. It's not my beautiful wife. It's like that moment of waking up and saying, where am i Right. That song is absolutely um on point um for sure.
00:07:29
Speaker
Okay. so so you made that decision. You, you went to college, you, you had that knowing with that beautiful conversation. um so So to frame our conversation, i I want the audience to understand some of the techniques that you work in. um DBT is something that you're you're very passionate about. You've you shared with me. Maybe you could give um a couple minute explanation, like what is that?
Exploring DBT and Mindfulness
00:07:54
Speaker
And when you say you work with trauma, in what way? Like, how do you think of trauma? What are the, what are you, you just give everybody a little little taste of Nicole's mind. Yeah.
00:08:06
Speaker
Well, DBT is dialectical behavioral therapy. And um the most important thing to understand and the biggest message about DBT is that we're looking at the dialectic basically um with the idea that we can hold two things to be true at once.
00:08:28
Speaker
And, um, what I notice is that in our world, and we see it in all levels of what's happening in our world now, even, um on a macro level and on a micro level, the world is sort of and in that all or nothing thinking. in that black and white thinking. And dialectical behavioral therapy gives people skills that they can use to integrate and walk the middle path.
00:08:57
Speaker
Another thing that's really important to understand about DBT is that it is a skills-based therapy, um meaning we offer you tools and those are tools that you practice and you use. um And that is broken into four different modalities. One is emotion regulation, which people really want to know about and use. One is distress tolerance, how do we manage stress?
00:09:25
Speaker
The other is interpersonal relationships, which is all about our connections with others. And the basis for all of that is mindfulness. So this is a therapy that is based on some of the Eastern philosophies,
00:09:41
Speaker
um of mindfulness practice, basically saying that we can't really implement these other tools unless we have some way to be very mindful about it.
00:09:52
Speaker
So that's DBT. It's pretty spectacular. drank the Kool-Aid. Yeah, right. And it's like, um, we chat, but I'd love that we're doing a little more of a formal dive today. Cause I don't think I knew that when you say it's in mindfulness. Um, so just do your clients need to, if somebody wants to do DBT and they don't have a mindfulness practice, how do you get them integrated that way? Is it like, Hey, you should meditate or to do this, or you take a little class on it? Like, what does that look like?
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question, because I think that mindfulness these days is sort of a buzzword and people are like, well, what exactly is that? How do i actually do that? And I don't want to meditate. And yeah be you know I'm very careful about using the word meditate. um So DBT can be done in individual therapy. You can learn skills in an individual therapy session, and it can be integrated and kind of peppered into regular talk therapy. Or you can go down more of a traditional, formal DBT route, which would require you to join a group, which is a weekly skills group where it's almost like a class and you learn.
00:11:09
Speaker
um But in terms of how do you integrate or orient someone towards mindfulness, there's so many ways that you can do that. And i'm and you're I know that you know these ways and ah you have wonderful tools as well. um But I like to just give people something that they can work with. Like if you like to go out and take a walk, what would it mean to make it a mindful walk?
00:11:34
Speaker
And how do we get in touch with um our mindfulness? And that's through our senses. So I teach people about their senses. What does that look like? What does that smell like? What does that feel like?
00:11:49
Speaker
And if we start to really orient ourselves towards our sensory experience, there's a lot of information there. The other thing that it does is it gives us a break from our thinking mind.
00:12:02
Speaker
i thinking Mind can really don' steer us in all sorts of different directions. So having skills and becoming more mindful allows us to drop out of that, those thinking thoughts that really are not based in reality.
00:12:20
Speaker
They're just based in our brain's desire to create thought, our brains being pattern making thought machines that we can't always rely on for accurate information.
00:12:32
Speaker
ma'am okay anybody that's listening like just rewind that hit that you know play button 10 times because i just think there's that's just a thousand percent truth right we are so fixated and i love what you said go for a walk if you go for a walk you know there's so many things out there with habit formation being successful or advantageous a certain way we gotta wake up at 5 a.m. and and go jogging. And people used to ask me, Laura, do you you've been successful, do you jog at 5 a.m.? like, no I don't like to jog. But that doesn't mean, and definitely not at 5 a.m., but that doesn't mean that that's not a great way to live. It's just not my way. And so um creating a foundation for people based on what they already enjoy, if you like to walk, walk, if you like to read, read, if you like to go swim, swim, it doesn't matter. It's just during that process to get away from the mind, focus on everything else, because there's so much happening in life outside of thinking, thinking, thinking, which we then
00:13:37
Speaker
um um begin to believe is the truth of life. This patterned perspective is the only way to see it. So I love that. I love it. I love it. All right. So then quickly, IFS, what is the difference between DBT and IFS?
Understanding Internal Family Systems (IFS)
00:13:55
Speaker
So as I said, DBT is a skills-based therapy with lots of tools that we use to help people learn in those different modalities. IFS, although I'm not formally trained in IFS, you know I lean into the the framework of IFS in that, um in other words, it's called parts work.
00:14:17
Speaker
but stands for internal family systems, meaning we have lots of different parts of ourselves, like a family within ourselves that are all jabbing and they're all jabbering away and fighting and they all want to be heard. um And so it's really learning the different parts of ourselves. um Some of the common ones are like everybody has a judge or a critic. um Some people have a lot of, you know, the fearful part.
00:14:45
Speaker
um We also have the like, distracted part or the angry part, right? And so we have all these parts, but where are we? Where's our authentic? There's the word authentic. Where's our authentic self amongst all of these parts? And in DBT, we call that the wise mind. Where's the wise mind?
00:15:05
Speaker
And one of the things that i always say to my clients is, you know, I'm less interested in what you say and more interested in what you know to be true. And where is that knowing? And how do we find that? So there is an overlap between DBT and IFS in that we really want to access our authentic self or our wise mind. But there's different ways to do that.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's... um It's like the consistency between the modalities and mindfulness and the ancient systems. You know, if you start spending enough time with this stuff, you see they're all working really hard to help you towards the same end, you know, and I woke up um having sold my company and looking at my life that looked quite successful from the outside.
00:15:56
Speaker
And I had this one realization that, The thoughts in my head, all of these thoughts, all of these voices, like which one's mine? And that led to that book, Emotional Obesity. But I really was struck. It was like this moment of, oh, no, I don't think I would know my own if it stood up and screamed at me.
00:16:16
Speaker
Cause it speaks in the same cadence. Like if it's maybe a thought my mother put in my mind or an experience or a traumatic point, they don't sound like the original source. They all become something that sounds familiar. So parts therapy, I did that for a while. um It's incredible just to start to sort out where's my saboteur and um Maze did that beautiful work on it and archetypes and what have you. So I um i think, appreciate you you sharing that.
00:16:44
Speaker
Um, Well, so getting a little deeper, come with me. You always do. as i always Um,
00:16:52
Speaker
i mean i was i was checking out your website ever so ah gingerly um as we were going in. I don't want to over-prepare because I know you so well and I wanted this conversation to feel really relaxed and, and and you know, I don't have the privilege of knowing my guests all the time.
The Power of Storytelling in Therapy
00:17:11
Speaker
But I was really struck by your story on your web website, NicoleWagnerTherapy.com. Just kidding. um But there's this sentence at the beginning, i believe everyone has a story, and that each story deserves to be heard and understood.
00:17:30
Speaker
i was like, damn, that's that like, I felt that I was like, ah hell yeah, like, that's beautiful. What does that mean to you to put that at the very top of your story and in your website, you know, and to say it that way, that everyone has a story that deserves to be heard and understood. I i was like, that's beautiful.
00:17:53
Speaker
Oh, I just got chills. I really do love that question. yeah. it's you It's so real to me, Laura. it's it's it's I want to know people's stories. I want to know your story. That means something to me. I'm excited by that. I'm curious about that.
00:18:11
Speaker
That's interesting to me. I want to walk that path. I want to you know i want to see that. I want to experience that. And i feel like that human connection. Yeah.
00:18:22
Speaker
human connection And that's what we're you know missing a lot in our world. Yeah. You want to hear my story why?
00:18:34
Speaker
oof Oh, it feels good to me. so so this all comes back to me, right? I'm getting something out of this. There's a reward in this relationship for me. There's a reward in this relationship for you.
00:18:48
Speaker
i feel fulfilled by listening i i feel fulfilled by listening to your story. um i just have a curiosity. It makes me feel connected.
00:18:59
Speaker
yeah And think that this goes back to what I had said originally, that this is sort of part of my makeup. you know This is what I was good at as a child. I wanted to you know be connected to my mom. I wanted to be connected to others. And it just she reinforced that in me. And now it's like a passion.
00:19:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I have this, i have this belief and I don't know if it's true, but I have this belief. intimacy, you know, into me, I see me, and then I can connect to you. But that all of us want to be seen. We're like little kids, you know, when they're little, they don't, they don't mind, you know, they'll run up to you at two or three and they're like, see me, see me, you know, they can't get enough. They can't. It's like, if, if you would just stand there and stare and watch them every second of every day, they would enjoy that. Right. But they actually are willing to be seen. That's the difference. And they're beautiful to be around because they light up, little kids. you know They just light up and they they love it. And then then something happens. And it's the thinking mind, I believe. It's the the meta-awareness, right? Because little kids don't have the awareness that they're being seen. They are just life force itself. They don't have the the what we talked about, that the the layers of the mind conflicted and... You know, you don't say to a kid, are you sure that you like pizza? They're like, what are you talking about? I fucking like pizza. And you're like but you told me you love broccoli. You're lying. They're like, no, I'm not. Like, they're not confused, right? I don't want this. I do want this. I like to be seen.
00:20:38
Speaker
So this belief of mine, and I would love your reaction, that... Perhaps um what you're offering and what you're enjoying is um giving people an opportunity to be seen and heard in an unjudgmental way, nonjudgmental way, their story, what matters to them.
00:20:55
Speaker
It is what we really crave. And at the same time, we're so afraid. If you see me, then you will find out the truth. I am flawed. I am an imposter. I am right. There's so many ways that we have baked into the idea that when we're seen as adults, there's a lack, there's a worthiness issue. We're not lovable. And so by allowing people to be seen, and then that allows you to connect to you. Right. And there's this lovely um underpinning of it's safe to be known. um And that,
00:21:28
Speaker
Even if you're sharing, because as a therapist, you're hearing all sorts of stuff. Even if you're sharing the darker parts, I'm i'm still here. I'm still curious. i I feel that's what we're all desperate for. um But I don't know. Tell me your your reaction to what I'm saying.
00:21:45
Speaker
Well, I couldn't have said it better. I mean, that's exactly what it is. And I just had about a million thoughts. um Obviously, Renee Brown, I mean, talks about vulnerability and what does it mean to be vulnerable? um i also, you know, was thinking about Lisa Demore who wrote, um untangled about how girls develop and and that moment when things change when they become more vulnerable and more aware of themselves. You know, we used to dance around the pool and like, laugh and like, just have like ice cream all over our faces and whatever it was, we didn't care. And then came the time when, oh my gosh, everyone is looking at me and how do I look and what is, you know, how am I moving in the world? yeah
00:22:32
Speaker
So that vulnerability, sure, like comes up, but we work through that. And um I think by hearing people's story, you build their, you know, kind of confidence and comfortability in themselves. Yeah.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you say after in your story. Yeah. In my work, I strive to see the best in people and help them reconnect with their strengths, realign to their values, and shape their stories that feel authentic, and powered and worth empowered, and worth living. right Because I think as we lose that sensibility, that play, that laughter of living,
00:23:11
Speaker
with ice cream on my face and and having fun, um life ceases to feel good. And then choosing what we want to do on a day-to-day basis becomes extremely difficult.
00:23:23
Speaker
um And our story, our connection to ourself, you know, diminishes. But the cool thing is it's sitting right there. Right. And this is what you do too, Laura. I mean, this is where we kind of overlap, right? You you know, you're also helping people find that place within themselves or open themselves up to another part of of them or to use themselves in some way to sort of have a different kind of an experience. um Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:54
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I do. And i i do it a different way, but it's all one way in the
The Role of Sensory Experience in Authenticity
00:24:00
Speaker
end. It's to get back to what you said about the walk out of the mind into the senses, right? And then ah as we do that, all of a sudden inspiration shows up, creativity shows up, connection to self shows up, and ease shows up, which is my belief is that it's your spirit. Like that's your connection to your authentic self, your spiritual self, whatever you want to call it, right? Yeah.
00:24:23
Speaker
We are so under utilizing our abilities, right? I say like, we've got what two, in if you're, you know, two inches up here on your your forehead, your brain area is like two inches wide, three inches wide, right? How many inches is the rest of you? i mean, there's just so much more that we can access. um And, you know, it can it can lead to change and um it can lead to um feeling more empowered, more comfortable within ourselves. You know, there's answers to questions that we have. Yeah.
00:25:08
Speaker
So what, on that, I mean, You've been doing this for a while. I'm very curious to ask people, healers, what are you seeing? Like, what is that through line?
00:25:20
Speaker
Why do people come to therapy? What are they ultimately looking for? Like that they lead they they can... I say I'm done. i don't need any more from you. What is it that is the satiation point? Like they come in with what and they're leaving because they now have like, what is the, the, the through line of that in your experience?
00:25:44
Speaker
Well, I think that we've said a lot about being seen and heard. I think that a lot of people need to feel like they're you know what they're experiencing is is valid.
00:25:57
Speaker
um Aside from that, i think people need clarity. i think there's a lot of noise. I mean, we could have a whole nother discussion about the noise in the world and how distracting it is from finding clarity.
00:26:13
Speaker
um So they come in with a lot of noise. And we kind of have to, as as you see in my website, I talked about sort of picking through the like if you have a necklace that's knotted up right loop by loop like what let's let's kind of peel back the layers as they say and and and really hear what's at the root of what's going on and a lot of times people just don't they don't know how to do that on their own they don't know what they might uncover um so i can support people through that process yeah um
00:26:48
Speaker
I also think people are missing community. And ever since COVID, right, we're feeling very alone in
Community and Connection Post-COVID
00:26:54
Speaker
the world. We're feeling very divided in the world. And we want to come to a place that feels like a sanctuary, like ah a safe place um to sort through and and and find where we can make more connection.
00:27:09
Speaker
um yeah And if you're disconnected from yourself, you really can't get the connection you're seeking. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, then we seek and seek and seek, shop more, do more, travel more busy ourselves, create more noise.
00:27:27
Speaker
And it becomes this cycle you can't get out of. And it's, it's, um, so Dorothy, Wizard of Oz, but it's like, just are always home. is for a got where to look. And we're so external or in our brains, as you said, the two inches versus the rest of our physical form.
00:27:50
Speaker
And I'd argue, you know, that's connected to a field, which we are as well. um But yeah, it's, it's not as hard as people think.
00:28:01
Speaker
Is that true? um I think people have a lot of ideas around ah what therapy look might look like if they've never done it before.
00:28:13
Speaker
um You know, there's people come in with all different constructs of what it should look like and that it's going to be this big, um you know, breaking open or... There's this idea of the slippery slope, like if I get started, it's it's never going to stop. Or if I cry, the tears are just going to run forever and ever. And, you know, again, our thinking brain protecting us from sort of taking this dive into vulnerability, really, and defining who are we, what's ah what's important in our lives. And again, how do we want our lives to look like and what makes our lives worth living?
00:28:55
Speaker
worth it. Right. And ultimately, wouldn't that be the most important thing? I mean, you and I, I think, had a shared passion for math in high school, meaning lack of. um And, you know, i watched my son go back through school and and the quantity of math and science skills that are required versus basic human functioning skills. How do I manage stress? How do I manage overwhelm? And we're all going to become part of a community of a family, right? Like most people have some form of relationship if they don't get married, if they don't have kids, whatever, but there's there's some basic communication skills, basic ability to like connect to yourself, know what you want. you know
00:29:44
Speaker
I mean, do you find, i feel like this question, like, what do you really want? Takes people to their knees. Yeah. Well, you talk about connection, you know, and back to sort of just this human connectivity. um Our communication skills are are terrible. Terrible.
00:30:06
Speaker
We say things we don't mean. We mean things we don't say. and we don't know how to say things in a way that um so that we can get what we need.
00:30:17
Speaker
from one another or even from ourselves. yeah And that's something else that I really love about DBT because one of the modules, interpersonal connectivity is really about how do we communicate in a way that's effective?
00:30:30
Speaker
How do we, Nick? help Help us. What is one thing? So people are listening and they're like, oh, Yeah. Like, i mean, here's the thing, right? You get older and it's like just getting the confidence, Brene Brown, to be vulnerable with yourself alone in your shower or your your private time. Like, what do I really want? And then saying it to yourself. Now you're faced with this horrible moment of stress and anxiety. Like I'm going to share my need with my partner, my child, my friend, whoever, work, colleague, situation, whatever.
00:31:02
Speaker
And it's paralyzing um because, i mean, you tell me what you think. I think people think once they say it because it was so hard for them to get there, they should they should get everything they need.
00:31:14
Speaker
like There's no negotiation. think this it's I've said it now. Give it to me. Like little spoiled children running around um so so not connected in getting their needs met. It's nobody's fault, but that by the time they finally get there, it's so feeling raw and vulnerable that not getting their need met feels um debilitating. So what's a tip or like, first of all, if I'm saying something incorrect, correct me, but but what is a tip that people can use right away to um find out what they need and then communicate that with
00:31:51
Speaker
without um
00:31:54
Speaker
coming across in a way that it fails, I should say, right? Like like without um ah reinforcing that your needs aren't meaningful.
00:32:04
Speaker
Wow, there's a lot to be said there. ah So say failure might, that might, a person who you're communicating to might not be able to give you what you need and might experience your expression as a failure, right? So we we, that's information and we work with that and figure out how do we accept the limits of the relationships that we're in and make choices about that.
Acceptance and Life Choices
00:32:31
Speaker
That's one thing.
00:32:32
Speaker
But i want to I want to pause there because that's a hard one. Oh, yeah. Yep. That's a hard one. Okay. I just wanted to like hit pause for 10 seconds because like really pausing and and recognizing there's a limit here and maybe it won't be what I want. And then deciding if you're okay with that.
00:32:54
Speaker
And it's funny that this is coming up because just this past week, we talked about radical acceptance in our DBT group and the idea of acceptance. And it's very hard. And and the idea of acceptance, you know let me clarify, doesn't mean that we have to like something.
00:33:13
Speaker
But what it means is that we're making a choice to do something different. And if two roads diverged in the woods and you're taking the one that's less traveled by, um you know, you're making a choice to do something different because if we're doing the same thing over and over again, we're on the hamster wheel.
00:33:33
Speaker
Acceptance is an opportunity to get off the hamster wheel and make a different choice. It's not easy. But there's a lot of possibility in that. um So that's kind of what I would say about limits.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah. I had a flashback when you said that to us in our twenty s movie where you that quote was something you've cared about for a long time. And I think you sent me the book or the quote or something. That was very interesting. us traveled yeah haven't revisited that book in a long time, but I do know that the first line of that book, the very first line is life is difficult.
00:34:18
Speaker
It is. it is. And I think our grandparents, our great grandparents, they would say it's life. I mean, it's life. I mean, in a way I've been thinking recently, do we all sort of collectively have an expectation of life that is not attainable?
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think we think it's supposed to be difficult. I think we think my life should be everything I want. And why is that not happening? And setting that expectation past a point, then everything feels like a disappointment is something I think about.
00:34:49
Speaker
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I do think you sent me that book. I swear to God, I just had a like a flashbulb like memory. Probably did. But, you know, I need to reread it because, um you know, things have, we've made a lot of kind of progress in the in this kind of world. And so, ah but but i but I do know that, you know, the poem about the Robert Frost poem of two roads diverged into what it's and I take the one that's traveled by and that makes all the difference, yeah you know, is really a nice image.
00:35:26
Speaker
Beautiful. Yeah. and And what about psychedelics? Where are you on this topic? As a therapist, this stuff is like everywhere. Do you think it's helpful at times? Not at all. Like what's your stance on it?
00:35:43
Speaker
Honestly, i don't know enough. I haven't studied it enough. I haven't been exposed to it enough. It's not something that I practice. um I do know that people get results.
00:35:57
Speaker
And I also know people that haven't had amazing experiences. um So I think just being in the hands of a really trained professional um in the right kind of setting is just what what what I would say is really important about that.
00:36:15
Speaker
um But I do believe that um brain you know the brain chemistry can can be changed and can be you know successful. i think that there can be success in
Continuous Self-Awareness for Healing
00:36:29
Speaker
that.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, i think it can be used to to just be high all the time or you can get out. It's kind of like dependent. Yeah. um So here's a weird question, but the brain can be rewired.
00:36:47
Speaker
We get to a place we feel better. I mean, what's a quote healed person look like? What does it look like when we're functioning optimally? Because it's not perfection, but what does it look like when we're, we're okay enough? You know, there's a lot of talk around healing, but I mean.
00:37:10
Speaker
Right. What does that look like? I think it looks like someone who, is tuned into themselves. I think it just, you know, it's not healed. It's, it's, it's an ongoing practice, where you're catching yourself and you're aware of, you know, is this, you know, a decision that I'm making because I have a certain idea of how it should be, or is this a decision I'm making because it truly feels right to me? um Being in tune with yourself, being in in alignment with your authentic self, and that takes practice. It takes knowing yourself.
00:37:51
Speaker
you know Are you staying within that sort of, you know as they say, stay in your lane? like Are you in the lane of yourself or are you kind of getting pulled in different directions and knowing yourself well enough to just keep returning back to the practice of self-awareness, I think.
00:38:11
Speaker
And knowing yourself full circle to where we were talking at the beginning, but what is that feeling for you when you know this is true for me. How how do how do you experience that?
00:38:24
Speaker
You know, it takes quiet. You have to have a, you know, you have to take a pause. You have to take a beat. It's it's giving yourself that moment. And and it's just a knowing.
00:38:39
Speaker
it's It's where you feel really relaxed and where you feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the knowing, is it in the head, heart, gut?
00:38:51
Speaker
You know, i for me, i think it's, I would say it's in the heart. you it You know, I tell people to put their hand on their heart and apply just a little bit of pressure. And,
00:39:05
Speaker
you know, there's something happens. It's like a warmth or like a safety or a comfort in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, yeah.
00:39:15
Speaker
Awareness, like when you breathe into it, it feels expansive and open and the mind gets quieter. Less fighting.
00:39:28
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, Um, if you were to think of an audience of people who are focused on trying to live more authentically, get out of their minds, into their heart, hope to have a ah life that feels aligned and i don't know, like they're feeling stuck. They're feeling lost. They're feeling like a lot of pain or trauma. um What are some things they could, I mean, I know DBT is something you would suggest or working with a therapist, but they're hanging out right now with with a podcast. Like what could they do that would be, um i don't know, ah a bit of a daily root ritual. They go for a walk, they go into their senses, but like, what does that look like in a bit more of a detailed sense?
Mindfulness Through Slowing Down
00:40:20
Speaker
I mean, really, the first thing that comes to mind is we have to slow it down. We have to slow down just a little bit the pace of our lives. I know that feels scary for people. I think that people, you know, enjoy the chaos, they enjoy the the rush, you know, there's something exciting about that. And also, there's a little fear around slowing down, because then, oh, all of a sudden, I'm thinking about other things that might not feel as good or... like You know, so, but trusting, slowing down just a little bit and then finding like something really small, the touch points, I call them, you know, just a small little moment of the day where you look at something and and and pause in that moment, something that's beautiful, you know, and allow feeling.
00:41:07
Speaker
to um kind of seep in and hold that, right? We're not acknowledging the beauty in life. We're not taking advantage of it. We can take that in and hold that within ourselves. And it doesn't have to be something big. It can be something really small. It can be feeling the sun come in through the window and and and feeling that warmth kind of bathe you just just for a minute. and And then just saying, oh, that that's so nice. That feels good.
00:41:37
Speaker
you know, some self nourishing, like we're all doing the best that we can. We're all doing, you know, we're all good people doing the best that we can. And we need to build upon that.
00:41:50
Speaker
m Well, that's beautiful. And I felt that in my body. I appreciate you so much. And thinking about your mom and um the story you shared and how,
00:42:06
Speaker
you were caregiving and how you were a companion and how much you enjoyed that process and how it's allowed you to live this experience and help so many. And so I was thinking she must be right now so proud and so grateful for that acknowledgement. And um i just felt her presence and,
00:42:24
Speaker
such a beautiful human.
Reflections on Maternal Influence
00:42:26
Speaker
And so just maybe full circle, have a moment of, um you know, it's beautiful that your story started that way. And if she helped align you to this path and the beauty that you've experienced and how many people you've helped, including myself, send a little love and acknowledgement her way. And thank you so much for being here. which That's so nice, Laura, really. and And you're part of the journey, right? Here we are you know, how many years later and landing here together and sharing this kind of, you know, curiosity and interest and passion that we do um is really special.
00:43:08
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. i won't share. I'm dying to share like one little high school story, but I just, I just. want know We won't go there. So if people are looking for you, NicoleWagnerTherapy.com, anywhere else that you'd like to, that um they can find you, or is that the best spot the best spot. Yeah, that's my website, NicoleWagnerTherapy.com. And all the information is there. um so if you're interested in learning more, that's where you would find more out.
00:43:39
Speaker
And you work in a handful of states right now. Is that true? Yes, I'm licensed in New York, Illinois, Connecticut, and Florida. Amazing. Thank you, Nick. I appreciate you so much.
00:43:52
Speaker
much, Laura.
00:43:55
Speaker
Hey, you, you, you,