Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Nos Audietis, Episode 268: It was fun while it lasted
55 Plays8 years ago
That was not how we thought it would end. The Sounders were absolutely dismantled by Toronto FC, losing 2-0. Maybe we got wrapped up in the narrative or we simply started to believe our own hype, but the Sounders were just not up for it and now we have to try to understand what happened.
Jeremiah, Aaron and Richard Farley try to sort it all out. They also appear to have lost the middle segment. Hope you don’t mind.
This week's music: "Star Blazers Theme", Perry Como - "Seattle", RVIVR - “The Tide”, Woody Guthrie - "Roll On Columbia"
Thanks to James Woollard, Sounders Public Address Announcer, for doing our sponsor reads. You can follow him on Twitter at @BritVoxUS - if you're looking for a British Voice to advertise your business or non-profit, please reach out to him.
Want to hear the music from the show in their glorious, full versions? Check out the Nos Audietis playlist on Spotify!
Recommended
Transcript
Episode Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of Nos Adietes is sponsored by Queen Anne acupuncture. Queen Anne acupuncture has over a decade of experience healing the injuries of athletes. Marathon runners, snowboarders, yoga instructors and weekend warriors have all found relief from pain and have enhanced performance with the use of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Queen Anne acupuncture has treated players from many of the Seattle area soccer leagues for a wide range of injuries.
00:00:30
Speaker
Acupuncture also happens to be one of the best treatments for stress. Located in the Queen Anne neighborhood of Seattle, you can conveniently book an appointment online today at QueenAnneAcupuncture.com.
00:01:06
Speaker
The bluest skies you've ever seen are in Seattle And the hills the greenest green in Seattle Like a beautiful child
Introduction by Hosts
00:01:23
Speaker
Welcome to another edition of Nos Adietes, sponsored by Fullpool Wines, Queen Anne Acupuncture, Verity Credit Union, Designers Marvel, and her broadcast partner Bootstrapper Studios. This is episode 268, and we're recording on Tuesday, December 19th. I am your host, Jeremiah Shan, and I'm joined by my co-host, Aaron Campo, and our engineer, Lickit. Also joining us on the show is the one and only Richard Farley, our veritable fourth member.
00:01:47
Speaker
That was not how we thought it was going to
Sounders' Unexpected Loss to Toronto
00:01:49
Speaker
end. The sounders were absolutely dismantled by Toronto FC, losing two to zero. Maybe we got wrapped up in the narrative or we simply started to believe our own height, but the sounders were just not up for it. And now we have to try to understand what happened. So here we are a week later. Aaron, do you think you have any better understanding of what happened or if this was simply how it had to be, or if the sounders were just that bad?
00:02:14
Speaker
I mean, it's settled now. What do you think? I think it's, this is a boring answer, but I think it's a combination of things. I think that Toronto really is really incredibly good. And there was a lot of confidence that the sounders were just going to roll them from our fans that
00:02:36
Speaker
I just did not understand going into this game at all. I thought the Sounders were going to play better than they did. I thought it was going to be closer than it was, but I really felt like people were under rating how good Toronto was. And so I think that's a big part of it. I think that the Sounders just kind of shit the bed, frankly.
00:02:56
Speaker
Stephen Fry's the only player that I think had a really good game. You know, Torres and Marshall were as good as I think you could expect them to be when they're under that much pressure, but everybody else was pretty crappy. Nico Ludero was awful, just actively terrible. Clint Dempsey was pretty much a non-factor. I mean, the players that had to be good were not only not good, they were just terrible.
Pre-Game Narratives and Overconfidence
00:03:25
Speaker
You know, that combination of things playing on the road, I think the fact that, you know, the Sounders, I think were taken by surprise. And I think that that was a big part of it. I think that they thought they were going to go in and really take the game to Toronto. And, you know, we talked a lot.
00:03:41
Speaker
over the last few weeks before the game and especially the last few days after Greg Vanny said that he didn't think the sounders were prepared and blah, blah, blah. And we said, man, I feel like the sounders are really in Toronto's head and I think that maybe that was not the case or maybe they got in their head and there was an undesired result came out of it because the sounders seemed
00:04:07
Speaker
Like they were reeling kind of from the get go and it was not the way they were expecting the game to go. And I just don't think they ever recovered. It's frustrating because they kind of weathered the initial storm.
00:04:19
Speaker
and actually started playing pretty decently towards the end of the second half. They had some pretty decent possession. They weren't creating tons of chances, but they were definitely getting close, and it was a much more even game. And as soon as the second half started, it was just like the start of the first half all over again. And at that point, I think it was pretty obvious that
00:04:41
Speaker
You know, it was going to take a miracle, um, to, to get to extra time. So, um, yeah, I mean, it was disappointing. I think everything that could have possibly went wrong did. I don't think that the final score or really the way the game played out is indicative of the actual talent gap between the two teams. Um, but they just got beat, you know, in pretty much every phase, they got out hustled, outplayed out technical, uh, out coached.
00:05:08
Speaker
on pretty much every front by a team that I think was already a little bit better than they were. So honestly, the fact that it was 2-0 and not worse is kind of a minor miracle with all those factors considered. So Richard, you, I imagine, have maybe a little less emotion tied into this game than we did. Give it to us straight. What do you think happened there?
00:05:32
Speaker
I pretty much agree with everything that Aaron just said. When I was watching the game, first 10 or 15 minutes, I'm thinking, oh, this looks a lot like some stretches did last year. Maybe the sounders can absorb things a little bit and then start to fight back. Okay.
Halftime Expectations Unmet
00:05:50
Speaker
20 minutes, 25 minutes, that's not happening pretty soon. Okay, maybe get to halftime, put this 45 minutes behind them. Schmetzer can make some adjustments or get his players' heads in the game. And like so many times we've seen before, Schmetzer can put an 11 out there that looks totally different or is acting totally different than the team did over the first 45. And when that clearly didn't happen, then you start to
00:06:13
Speaker
You take some of the things that Aaron just said that in fairness, he had kind of hinted at those things even before the game about how good Toronto is and how people should be taking that seriously, how people should be taking their regular season marks very seriously. You start to say, wow, Seattle, I mean, Toronto was really this good all along.
00:06:31
Speaker
the last six weeks or so of their season, maybe they were coasting a little bit, and they came to play in this game at a level that some of us, because of their preceding six weeks, didn't expect them to. And so I'm really glad that Aaron mentioned Greg Vanney's comments, because Greg Vanney clearly seemed to know that his team was going to be mentally peaked for this rematch. And if anything, I think this fact that the Sounders were able to kind of
00:06:59
Speaker
I don't want to say cruise, but we talked about it in the last show. Vancouver was just not a very good team. Houston was better than Vancouver, but they certainly weren't that great of opposition. I don't think the Seattle was ever tested in the month plus leading into MLS Cup. And so when they did have to start playing at BMO field, I guess a Toronto team that seemed poised to exact their revenge,
00:07:28
Speaker
maybe they were a little bit ill-prepared and maybe Greg Vanny's words did all of a sudden ring more true than we thought they would. Yeah, and I think that Vanny was clearly accurate in that I think there's two ways of looking at it. There's a very fine line between being
00:07:52
Speaker
on your like being in someone else's head and being like having like the sounders were like there's a fine line between the sounders being in Toronto's head and Toronto just being really focused on the task at hand and clearly they were very focused at the task at hand and it wasn't so much that the sounders were in their head.
00:08:10
Speaker
And I think that if you told me that the Sounders would go into the 60th minute tied 0-0 I would have thought that I would have felt really good about that because it would have I'm sure you would have started to think oh Toronto's getting frustrated Toronto is is probably starting to ask themselves are we ever gonna beat Stephen Fry all these kinds of things and yet that wasn't at all what we were seeing you know going into that 65th 67th minute and
00:08:38
Speaker
We saw a team that was just as determined as they ever were, that were continuing to put the sounders under pressure who seemed to feel like if we keep doing this, we're going to score. And the sounders aren't really, and I think the reason for that is the sounders weren't doing anything to make them worry about the other end.
Offensive Struggles of Sounders
00:08:55
Speaker
It would be one thing if the sounders were getting out on the counter and having some close calls, but they weren't putting TFC under any sort of pressure.
00:09:04
Speaker
And it's just very hard to be competitive when you can't generate anything going forward. And the Sounders, I think, had six shots and six or seven shots in the game. They actually, I think they put three on goal. None of them were anything.
00:09:18
Speaker
seriously dangerous. This was just a team that had absolutely nothing going forward. That said, I think that the one thing that people have focused on, and certainly in the immediate postgame, everyone was talking about the decision to play Rodriguez over New Who. And while I think that New Who, how could it have gone worse, I guess, is a fair question to ask.
00:09:47
Speaker
I'm just not really ready to buy the idea that the difference in this game was a personnel decision or frankly, even a, um, even anything that branch semester could do, because I don't know how you account for your midfield just being totally out, like just being bad. There was a lot of bad play in the center's midfield and I don't know how you overcome that.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'm with you. It's such a convenient excuse. It's like, well, hey, we beat Houston 5-0 over two legs and Jones and Nuhu were starting together. How can you change that up? Well, you can change it up because Jovan Jones is a better left back than he is midfielder and Victor Rodriguez is just in generally a better player than Nuhu is. And you want to give yourself the best chance possible to win. Maybe there's a chance that they're playing a slightly more defensive lineup that
00:10:39
Speaker
they're able to weather the storm a little bit more, but I don't think it's going to make an appreciable difference in the game. I think you're right. I don't think that there's any combination of players that they could have put out there if that was the mindset that Toronto had versus the mindset that Seattle had going into that game. I don't think it could have made a difference.
00:11:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the Sounders played like shit. Toronto FC played extremely well. There you go. Toronto is probably a little bit better anyway. That's the crux of it, right? Seattle's players didn't play as well as Toronto's players. And there were some tactical elements in it. But bottom line, at the beginning of this game, if I would have told both of you that Toronto with their talent, their players are going to play better than Seattle, you would have said, the formations aren't going to matter. Toronto's going to win the game then.
00:11:27
Speaker
I think that the actual answers are really unsatisfying to a lot of people.
00:11:37
Speaker
That's probably true. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I was expecting Toronto to win anyway. And so I was not. I know. I mean, I'm not saying that to gloat. I just I think that.
00:11:55
Speaker
I think that the, I don't know, I just, I felt really good about the Sounders going into this game and is bummed out as sad as I was. I didn't feel terrible about them coming out. I just thought that, you know, a team that was already a little bit better played really well and the Sounders played like shit. And I mean, not in, I guess it was late September, the Sounders started pretty much a first choice lineup.
00:12:18
Speaker
against RSL in a game that was super important at that time. And they got beat just as badly by RSL as they did by Toronto. I mean, shit happens sometimes and it's a bad time for it to happen.
00:12:31
Speaker
You know, that's just kind of the way it goes. I think tactically, kind of going back to what Jeremiah alluded to with the attack never really gave Toronto any reason to worry or never punished them really for sacrificing a defender for an attacker. You know, essentially with Toronto going with the change out approach that they did,
00:12:48
Speaker
They were essentially saying that we feel like we don't need to start three central defenders like we normally do. We're not scared by Bruin and Dempsey. We're not scared of that two-on-two battle because if I were Greg Vanney, I would have... This is, of course, hindsight talking. I've looked at it like, look, there are really very few times that you're going to come at us and really make it a two-on-two choice.
00:13:11
Speaker
Seattle, I think, needed to try to take advantage of that. I think at halftime, I think I would have probably sacrificed Wilbur and moved Dempsey up to a 9, moved Jovan Jones up to the left wing and bring on Newhoo and bring Nico into the middle so that you had somebody on the left that could try to either pin back
00:13:31
Speaker
their fullback or try to create that outlet to then create some odd number chances going back the other way, kind of recognizing that there was no reasonable way that you were going to be able to make changes that could fully solve the midfield battle. Now, in that formation, I think I would have had a clendency kind of play a false mind essentially and be the first person to be able to
00:13:52
Speaker
Receive a ball coming out of the back, play it out wide to Job and Jones, and then have him and Nico and Victor Rodriguez join the attack and then really try to take advantage of those numbers, you know, with Vanny having sacrificed the defender. But I think at best, that's a halftime substitution. And I, you know, given the way that I think Brian Schmetzer likes to try to rely on the people that he picks first and give them an opportunity to work through their own problems, I think that was unlikely. That being said, I think that does show that
00:14:22
Speaker
When you look at Seattle's team and you see how their talent is allocated, their goal scoring doesn't really scare you. So you feel okay sacrificing that third central defender and just saying, eh, we're okay with two central defenders against Will Bruin because although Will Bruin is a really great player, we feel like with two central defenders, we can still have our
00:14:45
Speaker
are fullbacks that are normally wingbacks, ask them to provide that with and still not be too vulnerable to the kind of individual talents that Seattle is going to bring to the field. Yeah. And I will say that if there was one tactical thing that I was disappointed in is that Brian Trenster did wait too long before doing anything. And I think that he talked himself into believing that if he just tweaked a couple of things in terms of direction that maybe that was going to fix the
00:15:13
Speaker
that would do it for the halftime adjustment. But I mean, it was 20 minutes after halftime that they scored. And the Sounders didn't look any better in those first 20 minutes than they did in the first half. So I'm not quite, and I guess he was getting ready to bring a new who right when the goal scored. But still, I guess if there's one thing that is a little frustrating, it's that. It's that the Sounders waited too long to make a move.
00:15:42
Speaker
That said, I think I would have been more frustrated if the same result had happened and they had gone with the same lineup they had went with the week before and they had left Victor Rodriguez on the bench because I think then I would have been asking like, you have all these bullets, why don't you, you know, you may as well fire him. I think to his credit, he put forward
00:16:00
Speaker
the most aggressive and the most, you know, forward thinking lineup that he could put out. And they got beat, obviously, they got beat badly. But I think I would have been more frustrated if he had been more conservative with his approach and started new who in Jones. Yeah, I saw a lot of I can't believe the Sounders are trying to bunker their way to another cop. And that's not what happened in this game. I mean, they
00:16:29
Speaker
It was the complete opposite of that. I mean, if anything, I guess you could criticize Schmetzer for being a little naive and coming out so aggressively and never really being able to get back into the rhythm of the game. If they had come out and said, okay, we're going with this attacking lineup, but we're going to sit back and absorb some pressure and kind of see how the game unfolds.
00:16:49
Speaker
Um, they're probably, I don't think it ever gets quite out of this out of hand as it, as it did. Uh, so yeah, I think, I think this was just a team getting, you know, getting hit really hard, really early and kind of stumbling the rest of the way. It is interesting how people perceive games in that way that if you don't have possession and then you're not attacking, you were never trying to have possession and never trying to attack, but.
00:17:13
Speaker
simply like Greg Vani made the right choices and his players executed it so well that given how Seattle had set up, they weren't going to ever get enough of the ball to execute their plan. That doesn't mean that the plan was trying to absorb pressure or trying to wait out Toronto. It's just, you know, the credit Vani and credit his players, they made it impossible for Seattle to execute. You know, the one thing that I have seen mentioned and I, and I'm kind of,
00:17:40
Speaker
sympathetic to this idea, although I don't know, there's clearly nothing that the Sanders could have done, was do we think a fully functional Osvaldo Alonzo makes a difference?
Osvaldo Alonso's Potential Impact
00:17:51
Speaker
Now, clearly the big caveat is that I don't know that we've had a fully functional Osia Alonzo almost all year, but that he does seem like the type of player who could have maybe affected some change in the midfield. Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to wonder. As good as Gustav Svensson and Christian Roldanar,
00:18:10
Speaker
The biggest thing that Ozzy does that I don't think anybody else in MLS does is cover so much ground and switch so quickly and seamlessly between defense and attack. I mean, if I'm building a team from scratch and I can pick one of those three, Ozzy might be the last guy I take of those three players, but in a game like this,
00:18:37
Speaker
I think that it's really where he stands out, where his ability to keep the ball in a crowded midfield, avoid pressure, and cover a ton of ground is vital. And it's just something that we didn't have in this game. So, I mean, yeah, I think it's fair to wonder and be kind of sad about. I don't know if it makes a difference, but it's the one thing, I think, like you said, that I can think of that
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, maybe that is the missing ingredient. And I think also there's when Toronto comes out as strong as they did and able to control the game as they did, there becomes an emotional element to the game where you have to continue to believe that you can not only catch a break and get a goal, but beyond that you can actually continue to compete. And sometimes what that requires is a few people on the field actually exhibiting that.
00:19:32
Speaker
And we know that Osvaldo Alonso, that might be his strongest quality, even beyond a lot of the technical qualities that you mentioned, Aaron. Just his spiritual quality to continue to compete, sometimes competing to the edge of the rules. But in the way that he does that, showing everybody that just because in these one or two elements of the game, we're not having the best of luck right now, doesn't mean in these other elements that we can't make up for that. And I just don't think that there was anybody on the field for Seattle
00:20:02
Speaker
against Toronto to really kind of say, look, things aren't going for us, going right for us right now, but it is still zero zero. And as long as it's still zero zero, we have every chance to not only, you know, snare a goal, but on a second to second basis, actually compete against these guys. And I just think he would have made a major difference. Like, I don't think that Seattle, I would feel dumb saying Seattle wins the game.
00:20:29
Speaker
if Osvaldo Alonzo was there because as Aaron detailed and I totally agree with him, ultimately I think the score maybe even flattered the Sounders. But I do think he would have made a major difference. I think the thing that was most remarkable about this game was that it was the 65th minute. It was 0-0 and it didn't feel like the Sounders were in the game.
00:20:47
Speaker
And, and I think you're right that is, you know, maybe Alonzo, maybe a player like that helps that mentality change. But there's just, it was amazing how the, how inevitable the goal ended up being and that it came relatively late, all things considered. And, and that the sounders were, you know, they,
00:21:10
Speaker
They could have, I mean, it wouldn't have been the craziest thing. Like that sequence at the end there, where the, uh, where the sky cam fell on the field or was dragged onto the field, wherever the hell that was that happened. Um, that little sequence, like it could have gone just a little differently and the sounders would have equalized the game. And then who knows what happens from there. Uh, but that was the only, that was like the only moment when the sounders felt like they actually had any kind of.
00:21:37
Speaker
Momentum even for a short period it was just it was it was really remarkable Just how how much Toronto dominated that game and how little the score really reflected that reality? Like 96 a minute or whatever it was when they got their second goal that said
00:21:59
Speaker
I did enjoy the trip. I made the trip to Toronto again. And I must say that I find Toronto to be much more of a visitable city than I had anticipated.
00:22:10
Speaker
Did you not actually take in any of the sites last year? It was a little farther outside of where the like so that I don't know if you know very much about Toronto but like it's a huge city first of all and I didn't exactly take in the city this time but I got a little more outside of like that just core
00:22:30
Speaker
Area where all the team hotel and everything was and so I was staying a little further away and so I I was able to take the Metro a bunch of times and we had we ate some meals out like a little further away and it just and it just like I don't know I felt like I got a little bit better sense of the people of Toronto who were
00:22:51
Speaker
You know it's a funny thing. It's often said like by Don Garber for instance that Toronto has like embraced Toronto FC as if it's like one of their own like it's like part of the sporting culture and I think to a degree that's true, but if you're used to the way that like
00:23:08
Speaker
In Seattle, it's not at all strange to hear random people discussing the game or for your server at your local restaurant to be aware that there was a game going on at the very least if not actually know the score. And I didn't run into a single person like randomly who seemed to care about the game. Like there was a
00:23:32
Speaker
And this is like, obviously in an area that's relatively near the stadium. So there's still a ways to go. It's a reminder that there's still a ways to go in most cities for MLS to be really, really relevant. Yeah, I spent two and a half weeks in Toronto
00:23:52
Speaker
I want to say four or five years ago before Toronto really made this push and Toronto FC really made this push and became this Titan, the MLS. And at the time the Raptors still weren't good. The Maple Leafs of course were bad. The Blue Jays were so bad. And I just got the feeling that whichever team became good.
00:24:10
Speaker
First was going to make the city fall in love with them and I think that Toronto FC was a little bit behind the Raptors I'm not sure but now we're having learned a little bit more about Toronto I think it's just a city lying away for in the blue jays are also like pretty big like the blue jays are a pretty big deal Yeah, like I think yeah
00:24:32
Speaker
I guess I just think Toronto FC, even as good as they are now, they had such a window a few years ago where everything in Toronto was terrible, and they didn't quite hit that window. All right. Well, we're going to take a quick break. We'll then close out with questions. If you're listening to no audio discs.
00:24:54
Speaker
This episode of Nos Adietes is sponsored by Designers Marble. Designers Marble is the premier custom cultured marble manufacturer in the Pacific Northwest. Their synthetic marble products, made with patented true stone technology, offer the beautiful look of natural stone at a fraction of the cost, while maintaining exceptional durability and ease of maintenance.
00:25:17
Speaker
Their products have been used in beautiful furniture, custom countertops and stunning shower enclosures. Designers' Marble is also a licensed general contractor that has over 30 years of experience in bathroom design and remodels. Give them a call, visit their website at designersmarble.com or stop by their showroom in Woodinville. They would love to give you a free estimate for your project, large or small.
00:25:45
Speaker
Verity is a local credit union and has been headquartered in Seattle since 1933. They have branches throughout the Puget Sound area and know what is important to you because they live here too. Verity is not for profit and puts any money they make into good rates, products and services for you, the members. They have credit cards with competitive rates, checking and savings accounts and loans for all sorts of things, even bicycles.
00:26:12
Speaker
Verity is federally insured by the NCUA and an equal housing opportunity lender. Anyone who lives, works, worships, or attends school in Washington state can become a member. And we would love to have you learn more and apply at veritycu.com. We are just going to jump right into questions like it. So go ahead and fire away. All right, here we go.
00:26:41
Speaker
This one might hurt. Blue82vdub asks, what the F just happened and why does it still hurt? Yeah, that was trying to think, trying to cover this in a way that we haven't already covered in the show. But yeah, that was a very painful and rude reminder that Toronto FC was apparently a much better team than, and maybe it was just like the soccer gods.
00:27:10
Speaker
paying us all back for saying like, hey, look, they were this much better during the regular season. So they're going to be this much better in the final.
00:27:17
Speaker
I also feel like people kind of forget that home field advantage is a pretty major thing in MLS. And they kind of forget that in the playoffs or especially in the final. I think Toronto is a better team, but I don't think they're that much better. And I think the home field had something to do with that. I think that the game plan had something to do with that. But I don't think that the gap that we saw in that game is really reflective of the actual talent level of the two teams.
00:27:45
Speaker
I mean, you can see, we know firsthand what home field advantage can do for a team. So it's not that big of, it shouldn't be that big of a leap. I think it was also the sports gods just reminding Seattle team sports fans that no, you can't be that good for too many years in a row. Otherwise this is what happens.
Criticism of Schmetzer's Decisions
00:28:05
Speaker
Uh, Steve, uh, the same route here, uh, Steve Locker asks, is Brian Spencer getting the appropriate amount of criticism for the team's, um, LS cup performance? Seems like if Siggy had stuck with a clearly not working lineup for 70 minutes and waited to address the formation problem until extra time, he'd be lambasted.
00:28:24
Speaker
I mean, I guess there's some truth in that that I think people are being more harsh on what would have been more harsh if in in a figure to in a magical world where Ziggy had brought the sounders to back to back. See, that's the thing.
00:28:45
Speaker
Um, I think the reason that Brian Spencer gets maybe a little bit more of a pass from Sigi is because the reality is, is he's taken the sounders to back to back and lost cup finals, that he's got this amazing win percentage and that he's kind of earned a benefit of the doubt. I think that at least by the time Sigi was winding down here, he had kind of lost. And that's not to say that Brian is a genius and Sigi is an idiot, but I just think that.
00:29:16
Speaker
It's hard to second guess a coach who has got it right so many times. And it's easy enough to look back and say clearly the coach could have done something better in this game. But I'm also not 100% certain that anything the coach could have done would have changed the ultimate result.
00:29:37
Speaker
I mean, the thing with Siggy is that there were three, four, five years of people witnessing his patterns as far as his decisions and then using that to criticize his future choices. So in that respect, it's a very difficult comparison.
00:29:53
Speaker
If Sigi had done the same thing that we saw in the final, yeah, he would have gotten more criticism. But that's because if he was still in the job at this point, people would have had eight years of frustrations to take out on those decisions. Whereas Brian, particularly last year, has a pretty good track record of either making adjustments at halftime or getting his players refocused at halftime.
00:30:16
Speaker
It was I think we probably alluded to this in the first half of the show or the first part of the show that you know you kind of wanted to wait for them to get to halftime and maybe a nightmare first half could be forgotten after the adjustments were made and Brian sent his team out with a different mindset as he has done so many times before.
00:30:33
Speaker
That's the history that Brian brought into this match. I think it's perfectly fair to incorporate those histories when evaluating Brian Schmetzer and Ziggy Schmidt because evaluating a manager on a single 90 minutes or 45 minutes worth of decisions is a pretty thankless and probably useless task.
00:30:57
Speaker
I think, too, that it's true that Schmetzer is getting off easier than Sigi probably would for the reasons that have been laid out. But the idea that he hasn't been criticized, I think, doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. I mean, I'd seen a lot of pretty frank and pretty harsh criticism for some of the decisions he's made.
00:31:15
Speaker
he made in that game. And I think most of it was fair, but it's not like he's completely escaped any blame. I mean, he's, you know, I've seen some, like I said, some pretty harsh assessments of his performance in that game. And I think, you know, to answer the question, is he not getting an appropriate level of criticism? I don't think he is. I think it's been fairly appropriate.
00:31:41
Speaker
Okay, moving on to 2018. Nick Gurney asks, how many changes to the starting 11 for MLS Cup title to the first CCL match? I honestly think we're going to see a very similar lineup.
00:31:52
Speaker
That's not exactly going on a limb, but I think the obvious one is going to be new who for Jones. And then the only question is what happens at forward, I think. And, and I think there's probably a good argument to be made that, that Jordan Morris is going to end up being the starter at least early on. And, and kind of like this year where, you know, he's, uh, going to be given every opportunity to, to win the job. And then, you know, we'll see, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. What do you guys think?
00:32:20
Speaker
I think central midfielders have possible change there too. We now can move on from the fear that Osvaldo Alonzo was going to be taking an expansion and granted that fear was never really well founded given his contract situation. As we probably alluded to before, I think that Osvaldo Alonzo was still
00:32:40
Speaker
at his best, a part of the best 11. And a lot of this will come down to fitness concerns that early in the season. But, you know, if he's as fit as they would expect him to be, then I would think that he's possibly in the starting 11 too.
00:32:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think that at most, I would expect one more major signing between now and then. I wouldn't be shocked if there are a couple in the first window, but it's hard for me to think that there are going to be a lot of big impact signings made before February 22nd or whatever it is.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, maybe, you know, maybe the Sounders go out and get a TAM level forward, uh, that, that, you know, wins a starting job in preseason. But I think in general, it's going to look pretty similar. Okay. Uh, let's see. GD Sounder asks, what positions does SFFC need to fill this offseason to surpass TFC in 2018?
Talent Gap Analysis
00:33:39
Speaker
Jeez, that's, I mean,
00:33:42
Speaker
I don't think, I think the distance, like we've said before, the distance between these two teams is probably overstated by the result in that game. And I think the Sounders can be better just by better executing. I don't think, you know, I think if these lineups played each other 10 times, I think the Toronto FC probably wins six or seven of them.
00:34:05
Speaker
or wins, you know, maybe not wins, but comes out in the... The Sounders are going to win their fair share of games against this team. I don't think it's that... I don't know. I don't think there's a huge gap to close.
00:34:18
Speaker
I think the biggest thing for me is that I feel like the sounders, they have players capable of scoring goals. They don't have someone like Josie Altidore, and you don't have to have someone like Josie Altidore to be a good team, but it's the one thing I think that stands out to me and says that's an area where I think TFC is clearly much better.
00:34:42
Speaker
Everywhere else across the pitch, I think that they match up really well. I think the Sounders could get better by getting better in other areas maybe, but it's something I would really like to see them spend some of that new Tam money on to get a difference making forward. I love Jordan Morris. I think he has a really promising career. I don't think he was as bad in 2017 as a lot of people seem to, just because I think there were a lot of mitigating factors.
00:35:11
Speaker
Um, having some more competition there, I think would be a really helpful thing. And, and, you know, if you can get a forward that plays at the same level, Kelvin Lierdan plays right back. Okay. That's not Josie Altador, but it gets you a lot closer and it gives you better options off the bench and it gives you a little more, um, attacking depth. And, um,
00:35:32
Speaker
I would really like to see that be the first sort of priority. I definitely do not get the sense that it is a priority, and that's a little disappointing to me personally, but we'll see how it shakes out. Yeah, I would completely agree with that. I think that the gap between Josie Alastor and Sebastian Giavingo and Seattle's
00:35:59
Speaker
And I think Seattle's attacking performances in the last two finals, maybe reflect that a little bit. The fact that Seattle doesn't have the type of players that are going to.
00:36:09
Speaker
have the kind of, um, decisive impacts like we saw in the first school. Um, actually, I think that's maybe a little bit harsh because definitely Seattle has players that can make those kind of plays, but certainly not with the frequency that a Josie Altator and Sebastian Giovico make those plays. So I think that gap is pretty big. If, if Jordan Morris doesn't bounce back in 2018, I think that back, that gap gets even bigger because Clint Dempsey is likely to be somebody for some age-based regression where, and, um, will brood, I don't think is going to be as, uh,
00:36:38
Speaker
as productive, at least in terms of raw numbers, I think he's probably going to be the same player. But to me, Wilburin is kind of like a league average striker who is going to be there to take advantage of the good play of the players around him. And I don't think anybody would ever describe Josie Altadora or Sebastian Giovinco in those terms.
00:36:54
Speaker
And I should say that I agree with that. I think that those are, that's probably the area of the field where the sounders have the biggest gap. But if you go position by position and you look at all 11 positions for the sounders and the, and Toronto's, I guess I saw someone say, suggest that there's not very many players on the sounders you would expect to start for Toronto FC. You know, going through to my head, I think you have four or five sounders that I think would start for Toronto. That's basically, you know, half the team. So it's not like,
00:37:24
Speaker
It's not like there's this huge gap, but I would agree that Altidore and Geovinko are clearly superior to the combination of Gruen and Dempsey.
00:37:36
Speaker
But then, like Erin is saying, it seems like, at least from what we're hearing, that they're more likely to add a player in the attacking midfield to add to Nicolas Ledero and Victor Rodriguez. And I just think, I don't know the extent to which Erin would agree with this, but I think that where this team can really take it to the next level is to add a truly reliable top five or six in MLS
00:38:00
Speaker
goal scoring forward. And it just doesn't quite seem like that's a priority. But when I look throughout the rest of the 11, that seems like the biggest hole to me. So I kind of wonder, is it something about the market for these players that's inefficient? If you're going to be spending too much money on number nines, that makes sense to me. Is it something about the market for attacking midfielders, particularly South American attacking midfielders that the Seattle front office seems to be going after?
Impact of Josie Altidore
00:38:24
Speaker
I guess that would make sense to me too, but in terms of raw team dynamics, it seems like the thing that would take the sounders to the next level is to go out and find an equivalent to Josie Altador.
00:38:44
Speaker
Uh, Steve Locker has another question. Uh, two MLS cup games, two number nines, Valdez Gruen, that had little to no impact on the game. It seems like the forward spot along with midfield width is the biggest issue for the Sounders going forward. And Twimberly23 asks, are you comfortable going into next season with Jordan? Well, as the top two options at striker. Do you guys find there's a weird obsess on soccer Twitter with midfield with at least US soccer Twitter? Yeah, there is. I don't.
00:39:13
Speaker
I love watching hymns that play super wide and can be effective that way, but I don't think it's...
00:39:21
Speaker
I think that you can win, you know, just as well playing pretty narrow, if that's those are the players you have. So I think that see, I think that Kelvin Lyrdom and Jovan Jones provided good midfield with. But people don't think about it that way because they're not midfielders, at least as the team was laid out in the final. But they serve the same purpose. And in fact, they enable your traditional wide midfielders and a four for two to come in and augment the middle, which, of course, over the last 10 years or so of international soccer, we've seen that the numbers game in the middle
00:39:51
Speaker
is really important. So I just wonder what people mean by midfield with like, do they want teams that can double up full backs and wingers on the flanks? Because that is definitely a plan. But it would also mean that your team ends up with just only two central midfielders to fight out the battle in the middle.
00:40:08
Speaker
I think, too, the biggest problem in the game against TFC and one of the things that was really surprising to me because the Sounders do tend to play so narrow in attack was how overrun they were in the midfield. And I don't know that getting wider and having, you know, more out and out wingers really, maybe it makes you a little bit more dangerous on the counter. But
00:40:29
Speaker
I mean, I think the bigger issue there was just the lack of speed, taking it behind the defense. And you can do that from a pretty central position. So I don't see width as being a huge problem, personally. To address the other part of the question, though, I think that finding one way or the other, whether it's
00:40:54
Speaker
It's, I mean, I think if Morris returns to the form that he was in, you know, at his best this year, and he throws in the goal scoring form that he had in 2016, I think the centers are okay at the number nine spot. But yeah, if Will Bruin continues to be the top choice as the number nine, I think that's probably, you know, that's something that's going to keep the centers from being a truly elite team.
00:41:24
Speaker
Uh, he, I mean, he had career highs this year too, right? So, I mean, how you can't really expect him to do that two years in a row. He had, he's, he had career highs in terms of, of per minutes. Yeah. Uh, chamber I Seattle asks, will sounder sign a new DP striker this year? If so, not until the summer and Nick Gurney chimes in also your ideal DP target position to target this off season.
00:41:53
Speaker
I mean, I would kind of kill this, but I do think that I would love to see the centers go out and get a number nine, like someone that's either going to compete with, you know, that's either going to that's going to push Jordan Morris out to the wing and then you end up having and let Morris kind of figure it out on the wing.
00:42:14
Speaker
I think that's probably my ideal choice. I don't hold out much hope for that happening in the winter. I think more likely what's going to happen is the Sounders are going to do kind of what they did this year, which is let Morrison and Bruin see how they do and then assess what your needs are in the summer.
00:42:34
Speaker
I also think that going after a youth GP, number nine, that doesn't have to play right away is a really intriguing option if you can find that player. Because it's a lower cap hit, you don't have to worry about having to get them on the field right away, and worry about cutting into Jordan Morris' minutes. I'd be fine with him going out and getting a 25-year-old prime of his career proven goal scorer. But if they do go the under-23 round, I think there are some pretty strong benefits to it.
00:43:06
Speaker
I'm also intrigued by the idea of going out and getting a Steve Zakuwani Fabian Castillo like player on the left wing to really stretch out that defense if you anticipate Jordan Morris being healthy all year and that way being able to have a stretch out defense that Jordan can use his speed nicely defenders one on one more easily against them.
00:43:24
Speaker
I think that maybe changes how the team has to play a little bit, but it's not a major change. It's not something that the team over the course of a regular season can't compensate for. But if there are kind of market forces out there that are explaining why the team isn't willing to go out and get a striker, maybe they would have to do something like pay seven to nine million dollars a year in salary in addition to like a six or eight million dollar transfer fee for the type of striker that we were talking about. Then going out and adding just kind of like a pure beat the fullback.
00:43:53
Speaker
winger in order to give the attack a different dimension, I think would be intriguing because like we've alluded to before, the team is kind of stockpiling a lot of these wide to in midfielders that are kind of redundant, it seems like. So to have that change of place option in there, I think would be pretty good. I think you kind of hit on this one a little bit, but we'll ask it anyways. Trivialx asks, which sounder in the presumed 2018 starting 11 would benefit the most from a new signing competing for their minutes?
00:44:22
Speaker
Hmm. I mean, I don't know, maybe it is Jordan Morris. Um, I don't think, like I've said this many times, I don't, I don't think that Morris has been gifted a starting spot. And I think that, you know, will Bruin has provided him some pressure, but you know, if you were to bring in a, you know, a, a top caliber kind of high-end potential player, uh, Jordan Morris is young enough that I could see him benefiting from, from someone like that.
00:44:53
Speaker
I think it's new who are Dempsey. That's actually an interesting demo. Actually, I wonder how Dempsey would respond to that. That's interesting. That's an interesting.
00:45:08
Speaker
Fullpool Wines are based in Seattle, owned and operated by Sanders fans, and have been sponsoring Nota Adieira since 2011. They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, the Pacific Northwest. Their model is simple. One, they email compelling offers.
00:45:27
Speaker
Two, you request bottles that sound appealing. And three, your wine arrives at their soda warehouse and is ready for pickup or shipping. Their soda tasting room is also open to the public. If you're interested in joining their mailing list or learning more about them, visit fullpawines.com.
00:45:51
Speaker
Okay, mrathgber22 asks, has the yacht sailed on Dirl East Gonzales? Or is he a possible winter signing?
00:46:00
Speaker
You know, I don't I wonder if the centers are are interested in him at this point. You know, he had he's had a very rough, a rough few months. He's not been particularly good for Kiev. He is not quite the play. He has not turned into this great player that I'm sure Dino Kiev was hoping if the centers are still interested. I would imagine that they were actually interested in him at a.
00:46:27
Speaker
is a lower, is at a lower transfer fee, but still that he's probably still in a DP category. So I don't know. I guess it really depends on how much of the centers trust their, their scouting. But my suspicion is that the yacht has probably sailed on that one. Okay. Uh, let's go. Uh, let's see. Drew. Oh, sorry. Not drew Dave Montgomery.
00:46:54
Speaker
I asked, any insight on possible S2 or homegrown player signings to the first team? So I don't think that there's going to be any automatic signings at this time last year. This time in the last two years, I feel like the Sounders have
00:47:10
Speaker
told us which players they were expecting to bring in to camp the following year in terms of players from S2. This year, they did not mention anyone along those lines. I think Garth was actually given that opportunity at his year-end kind of talk with the media. And he didn't name any names. That said, I would suspect that Sam Rogers is probably going to be in some contention. He did talk about Trey Muse, who is a goalkeeper at Indiana. But it also sounds like the Sounders aren't in any
00:47:38
Speaker
rush to get him under contract which i think makes sense they don't need
00:47:44
Speaker
a homegrown designated or homegrown goalkeeper. He's gonna, like, there's no rush to bring in a 21, 22 year old goalkeeper when they feel like, you know, if Brian Meredith is the backup, they'll probably want someone to compete with Brian Meredith for that backup spot. And if they don't think Trey Muse is gonna be that guy, there's no shame in letting him stay at Indiana, which is obviously a very good program. And he's gonna get another year of seasoning, let him come out when he's supposed to come out,
00:48:14
Speaker
You don't really lose anything there. So I don't know how likely he is to be signed, but I would imagine that the players from S2 who are most likely to make the first team guys like Rodrigo LA, Sam Rogers, and maybe Ray Sorry. I'm not sure that there's anyone else. I'm sure there's a few other guys are going to be in camp, but I don't know how much
00:48:41
Speaker
how many of those guys I would like I don't think there's gonna be a new who level signing okay along those lines rhubarb city ass I'm just bringing it on this to you on you guys I might have to enter this for you with the MLS combine and draft set what sounders u23 players do you expect to be picked and how many will the sounder select hi I honestly don't follow the u23 roster do you have do you have
00:49:08
Speaker
Okay. Well, you're in luck. You're in luck. I obviously follow it so closely. No, I asked Dave. Well, Paul Christiansen is on that list. Sergio Rivas at Seattle U, Nathan Aun, I don't know how to pronounce his last name, A-U-N-E. He's also at Seattle U, I guess once in like National Defender Award or something like that. And then Scott Menzies from UW. He's a junior, Richard Jr.
00:49:36
Speaker
So those are the, these are all, these are all Academy products. These are all U23 players. Paul Christensen is, uh, Academy and I believe Revos is as well. So Dave wasn't sure if his homegrown eligibility was still intact. Have the Sanders ever drafted a player from the U23s? I don't think they have, have they? I don't think so.
00:50:01
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I don't think I would look at the U23s necessarily as a cohesive part of the sounder's structure. Yeah, fair enough. This was an interesting question. You can probably just answer it. But Silverknot Gray asked, can we Tam Lodero? If so, Tam him and Lonzo and bringing a DP winger and striker. And would that raise cap health for 2019?
00:50:32
Speaker
I mean if you tam Ledero I think you're using almost all of your tam right there. I mean Ledero's on something like 1.7 million.
00:50:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's not that much. But I don't know what he is in addition to, like, I don't know how his transfer fee is being prorated. But I think that's above any predicted, any even rumored threshold for TAM. I think players making in the $1.72 million range, at least for now, are safely designated players. I mean, is there any reason to think that a $1.79? No.
00:51:08
Speaker
Go ahead. 1.5 is the max, I think, for TAM at this point. Right. That was my understanding as well. Yeah. Okay.
00:51:24
Speaker
Nick Gurney asks, should Sounders prioritize the Open Cup for continued CCL since 2019? CCL is limited to MLS Cup 17-18 winners and US Open Cup 17-18 winners? I mean, I guess the question with the US Open Cup at this point is, OK, so we want to take it seriously. I understand that. I would love for the Sounders to be competitive in that. But at some level, you do have to prioritize, right? If the Sounders are saying early in the season, they're going to put their priority in the Champions League.
00:51:53
Speaker
And then obviously at the end of the season, they're going to put priority in major in the league season. How much of the, like, how much are you willing to sacrifice of the regular season to like go all out in, in the U S open cup? And for me, those early rounds, I don't want to see the, like, I don't want to see sounder starters in the open cup. If that means, if that's going to detract from what they can do in the regular season at this point.
00:52:20
Speaker
Yeah, you can't have it all. I think for me, an even bigger priority than the CCL is not having another shitty start this year. People were nuclear over the start last year. There were a lot of people that thought his job should be in jeopardy.
00:52:40
Speaker
which is crazy, but it shows how pissed off people were about it. If you're prioritizing the Open Cup at the expense of the regular season, people are going to be pissed off about that again.
00:52:57
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I love the Open Cup. And I feel like there's some revisionist history with the Open Cup runs. And people talk about how much of a priority the Sounders put on it. And they just don't seem to care anymore. And for one, in the earlier rounds, the Sounders have never played strong lineups. The one year they did,
00:53:17
Speaker
was a red card wedding. So I think that that's a pretty good reason not to do that. The second thing is you used to be able to buy hosting rights. So the Sounders played every single game at home, and that's huge in a secondary competition like the Oakland Cup.
00:53:34
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, I just like I would love to win it. And I think, you know, I don't want if they're in the quarterfinals or the semifinals or whatever. Yeah, I don't want them starting, you know, Sam Rogers at center back. But in the earlier rounds, they've always started depth players. They should be starting depth players. You know, you got to get those those players some actual game time at some point. And I, you know,
00:53:58
Speaker
If they get knocked out early again, it'll be frustrating, but it's still, I think, the appropriate level of caring. There's a word that works here, and I have totally forgotten about it, but yeah.
00:54:15
Speaker
I think it's so interesting how much Sounders fans care about Champions League, this Champions League. I mean, when I'm talking to other fans or I'm covering other teams, Champions League is looked at as kind of, you know, this thing you want to take seriously, but the timing of it is so weird that you don't want to be putting too many hopes in it. The where it falls in the schedule, you know, MLS's history and regards to it, the nature of the competition itself. There's more of a garden optimism amongst
00:54:45
Speaker
front offices and amongst fan bases it's seen as more of like an exotic bonus more than anything else but when the draw happened this week for Champions League and even before that even during you know you know after the Sounders got eliminated and people were talking just generally
Sounders Fans and CONCACAF Champions League
00:55:02
Speaker
I was reminded about how seriously Sounders fans take this competition. I'm wondering, is that just an offshoot of how seriously they took Open Cup, particularly in the first years of Sounders being an MLS? So now there's a culture of just taking every competition super seriously?
00:55:20
Speaker
Is there something special about Champions League with the Sounders? And if so, I don't understand quite why. I don't understand quite why Champions League amongst the Sounders fan base is taken so much more. I don't know if seriously is the right word because other fan bases take it seriously, but in a way it kind of is because other fan bases do definitely kind of approach it like, yeah, but it's Champions League. So you kind of never know. I mean, I think that it's ego. It's it's ego.
00:55:48
Speaker
That's the short answer. I think it's more than just ego, though. I think that there's also an aspect of that ever since the earliest stages of of the Sounders entry in the Champions League, which I think a big part of that is that the Sounders have been competing in CONCACAP Champions League since 2010. Now, it's obviously not been every year, but they've been in a lot of by virtue of those open cup victories. They've been.
00:56:13
Speaker
in a lot of Champions League tournaments. And so and when you, you know, you carry over, there's a lot of seasons that the centers have played in that have touched Champions League. And so I think that's part of it. But even in the earliest stages in 2010, when they were marketing it, they were marketing at this is our path to being able to play the Real Madrid's and the Barcelona's and the Chelsea's in a real competition. And I think they just kind of sold it
00:56:37
Speaker
very early on in a way that was maybe a little different. And so I think that kind of got into the DNA of the fan base. You know, you had Sigi who was very fond of saying things like, if we're going to enter a tournament, we're trying to win it. And, and I think that you're right. I think ego is a huge part of it, but I do think that part of it is also just kind of the culture that the sounders have purposefully, you know, fed into. I think there's also a smaller portion of the people that just like to travel to these places, these games too. So.
00:57:09
Speaker
I think you're right, but there's a pretty small group of people that actually travel to these games. The ones that Richard are probably hearing are part of that group, probably. Probably.
00:57:19
Speaker
Yeah, almost certainly. I mean, you know, we all follow or part of the same conversations on Twitter. And even as Jeremiah was talking about all this, I, I think back to, you know, the crowds that I've seen at Champions League home games, that century link, I think maybe the last one I was at, was it the team game or I think there was another one maybe I was I'm not sure. But.
00:57:39
Speaker
Yeah, but, you know, it's not like Century Link is full the same way it's full for a weekend game when these championship games, Champions League games come around. So maybe I'm buying in a little bit too much to the social media chatter and not actually paying attention to the other metrics around these games. OK, moving on shots fired or says idea. Don't even play Ledera or Dempsey or Ozzy till our 16th game. Give them a lot of rest. Hmm.
00:58:11
Speaker
There are no wrong ideas in brainstorming. How's that? That's perfect. Perfect answer.
00:58:19
Speaker
But I mean, this Aaron did kind of address the fact that, you know, last year people were a little apoplectic about the team start. And of course the year before it was even worse. So, um, you know, logic says that there's only so much you can hurt yourself in the first three months of the season. And certainly the Sounders last two years have been a testament to that. But emotionally, I would think that fans would kind of prefer the team kind of.
00:58:42
Speaker
get their act together or get their theory of the team into the world and working rather than rolling those kind of dice. But, you know, you never know. Maybe fans would actually like seeing some of the depth on the roster. I mean, if they had gotten their act together just for one game, they could have been, what, first and worst. Although, I guess not that that really mattered too much, but
00:59:07
Speaker
Certainly next year, you wouldn't anticipate the East leaders putting up a record number of points during the regular season. So you want to be there to be able to compete with them for the supporters shield and the perks that go with it. And that kind of strategy would essentially be if not giving away the supporters shield and inviting a host of teams to steal it from you. Yeah. And if the sounders, you know, one of the things we heard repeated time and time again from the end of the
00:59:34
Speaker
From the point that they qualified for MLS Cup until they were obviously kicked out, we heard the Sounders saying things along the lines like,
00:59:42
Speaker
we got to do more to make sure that we're hosting this game. And like Aaron alluded to, that's a big deal. And every point that you throw away is, you know, like, I remember repeating some of what we just said, but it's just, I don't think you can afford to flush a third of the season down the drain, even if you don't literally, you know, lose all those games. I just don't think you can avoid, you just can't afford to do that. If you want to host an almost go.
01:00:10
Speaker
Okay. Uh, let's see. With, let's see, chamber ICLS, what happens to MLS after 28 teams? 32 teams? I hope not, man. I would like, I, I do wonder though, how,
01:00:28
Speaker
Like what the plant like what how this if MLS is serious about stopping expansion and I would think at some point you have to be like every league in North America has gone through long periods where they you know, like they still maybe play with the idea of expansion, but
01:00:45
Speaker
they settle in at a number and they kind of let it be that number for a while. And literally ever since 2007, MLS has been in this constant stage of expansion. I guess even going back to 2005, they've been expanding with one or basically averaging a team a year. And at some point,
01:01:09
Speaker
You have to stop, right? You just have to take a breath and figure out what you are as a league. I would like to think that 28 is that number for MLS because it would just give us a chance to see what we really have at the lower divisions and how much of this is sustainable and how much of this is dependent on
01:01:29
Speaker
the hope of getting expansion. And, you know, maybe we can get to a point where the league feels like some sort of closed system promotion and relegation is viable. I don't know.
01:01:43
Speaker
I would say that, yes, we have seen in the other... I'm about to say the other three major sports. Let's just say the three major sports. I don't think we can really throw MLS in there. We have seen kind of a satiation point at about 28 to 32 teams. But I would say that the reason that those leagues have stopped is because they have run out of cities into which they can reasonably expand.
01:02:04
Speaker
I think in the NBA we see a really good example of this because the one city that is mentioned most prominently with an expansion team is one where just recently they've got their stadium situation or arena situation quote-unquote settled and it's unclear whether it was settled in a way that will actually attract an NBA team. Seattle, I'm talking about you here.
01:02:26
Speaker
MLS, on the other hand, has a much, much lower bar for entry than NFL and the NBA does. And we can see, based on the list of cities that have applied to Major League Soccer, that the demand for teams is much higher than it is in NFL or NBA. Maybe it's not much higher, but the number of cities willing to meet the demand of the league is much higher.
01:02:48
Speaker
So I guess I would reverse the question and ask it like this. If the NBA had four, six cities just banging at the door to pay what would undoubtedly be an unreasonably high expansion fee, like a billion dollars or something like that, do you think the NBA would really not be talking about expanding? Because based on the history of pro sports in this country, I would tend to think that these businesses would continue to want to cash those checks.
01:03:16
Speaker
So what you're suggesting Richard is that it's not some high-minded principle that limits these leagues to 28 to 32 teams, but rather market forces. Interesting idea.
01:03:30
Speaker
Well, yeah, maybe I'm on to something. Oh, no, maybe I'm on to something that people have been thinking about for thousands of years. I guess that's what you're saying. I do think it's a good reminder that that I think sometimes we especially in soccer, we get caught up in this idea that soccer leagues are supposed to be a certain size. And so that the farther that MLS gets away from this platonic ideal of a 20 team league that or I think that's what people think the platonic ideal is 20 teams. But
01:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's I think that's what they think. And so I guess the further the farther we get away from it, the more it seems like MLS is just, you know, cashing checks. But I guess maybe at the heart, that's that's what it's about, right?
01:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I don't think that makes it any different than most leagues around the world in terms of motivation. What makes most leagues around the world different is that the markets that they're in wouldn't sustain that. But here in the United States where there's less of a culture pushing against that, in fact, there's a culture that actually understands
01:04:35
Speaker
that these owners are going to want to continue expanding, continue to put in the language they probably would, giving cities the opportunity to develop soccer, et cetera, especially if they can spin it into some kind of rationale that, oh, we're going to break off into two leagues eventually and have some kind of promotion and relegation. But in the interim, we're going to grow to 36, 40 teams, and then we'll decide then. Then it's almost as if they have a cover to keep expanding.
01:05:00
Speaker
On one hand, I think that we can believe Don Garber when he says that, no, we're not going to expand past 28. Well, Don Garber isn't going to be the commissioner forever. And so the person that replaces him, are they going to be of the same mindset? Or to take it a step further, the people that put themselves in position
01:05:21
Speaker
to be the next Don Garber? Are they more likely to be advocated for by the ownership group if they say, hey, I think we can get $400 million per entry fee if we expand by four teams? Are you guys interested in $1.6 billion? That might put that person in better position to succeed Don Garber. On that note, moving on.
Favorite Moments of 2017
01:05:45
Speaker
Nick Gurney asks again, Nick Gurney with a bunch of questions today, asked favorite moment of 2017 related to the sounders? Oh, a positive question. Yeah. Let's see. You know, I guess in terms of moment, like a singular moment, there was it's hard to be Clint Dempsey's tying goal at
01:06:10
Speaker
Portland. Now it wasn't the most important. It wasn't the most important result. It wasn't the, you know, it wasn't the greatest individual goal, but it came from such an unexpected, like there was no expectation from the, from the point that Brett Evans went out of that game at essentially at halftime. And then the Sounders subsequently fell behind giving up two goals in the span of, I don't know what it was it three minutes or something right before halftime.
01:06:39
Speaker
there was really just no expectation that they were gonna get anything from that game. And then to have Dempsey of all players who entered the field to fuck Clint Dempsey chants, which apparently Don Garber must've been losing his mind over, and to have him kind of just pull out a point there was, I think it had to be the most satisfying, singular moment. On a cross from Roman Torres, too. On a cross from Roman Torres, exactly.
01:07:08
Speaker
That was that was that was an awesome moment. I was glad I was there for that one. I felt like I almost got in trouble in the press box because it's not just like the sounders or the timbers when something good happens. And I kind of follow these teams whenever something cool happens at a press box. I always have that one moment where I'm just like, oh, holy shit. And I kind of jump out of my seat. And I always I'm always concerned. People will see that as cheering. But honestly, I do that for so many teams. Like any time something cool happens, I have a holy helmet. I don't say the no, no, no, no, please. No.
01:07:38
Speaker
I was going to shift because I was going to say the other moment that really stands out for me was Sarah McNally posting a video of her son high-fiving Christian Roldan at Starfire before one of the practices leading up to MLS Cup. That's going to be a highlight for me because she has a really cute kid and that was a really cute video. I think her son's probably what, like just short of two years old probably at this point or something like that.
01:08:02
Speaker
I thought that was a pretty good one. And I will, to echo the idea of almost getting dirty looks in the press box, the moment, the closest I ever, I was like vocally shushed was, and as you may know, I can be a little loud in the press box at times, but I just like had this very audible, like, oh my God, what did I just see? Was this play against Vancouver where Dempsey had this,
01:08:28
Speaker
he had this absurd volley that he like back he had it was like he took a long pass and he hit like a backheeled volley to Jovan Jones who was streaking down the wing. And I was just like
01:08:42
Speaker
It was like one of, it was like kind of one of those things where Dempsey kept doing more and more outrageous things throughout the game. And that one was the one that got me almost kicked out. But anyway, just to piggyback on the Dempsey thing, I think the whole Dempsey story for this, for this season coming back and not, not knowing if he's going to play and just coming back and having, it looks like you're genuinely having fun playing was probably my favorite moment of the season.
01:09:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think the whole click Dempsey narrative throughout the year, because remember the first podcast of the season, we were kind of going, Oh, Dempsey's not really contributing to the attack. We've got, he's somebody that needs to be a double digit scorer for the, for the team to actually have an effective attack.
01:09:21
Speaker
I think we were just reminded this year that Clint Dempsey is still Clint Dempsey. He's going to go through those stretches where he has a bunch of goals. He's going to go through the stretches where, for whatever reason, be it defenses or adjusting or his teammates aren't finding him, he looks less effective. But definitely there was a point in the middle of this year where I just chilled out regarding Clint Dempsey. I was just like, he's back and he'll go through those hot stretches. And when he does, I'm just going to enjoy it. Yep.
01:09:46
Speaker
And I guess we'll end it on this question. Jim C. Kim asks, what will you guys do during the break? What will I do? I'm going to spend some time with family. I have no good plan. I'm just going to try to relax.
01:10:05
Speaker
Um, yeah, I'm going to look around my apartment and evaluate whether stuff is worth actually packing and moving in all likelihood. Um, and other than that, I'm just going to hopefully ask people to pay for drinks for me and that'll be the greatest Christmas gift of all. And we've lost Aaron and that's what you haven't heard from him much. So, uh, that was the last question Lickett.
01:10:30
Speaker
That was. All right. Well, hopefully these technical difficulties didn't come through too hard on our listeners end. But anyway, thanks for hanging out with us. This is going to be the last show of 2017, for sure. Our expectation is that we will be doing another Yacht-Con sometime in February. We do not have a date yet. I suspect that we will record again between now and then.
01:10:56
Speaker
But for now, I hope everyone out there enjoys 2017. This was, I think, a satisfying year on the whole. I know right now it still feels a little raw. But this was, I think, all in all, the Sounders are in good place right now. And I think there's a lot of reasons to be enthusiastic for this offseason and to look forward to 2018. And who knows? Who knows what transpires this offseason that gets us back into the recording booth.
01:11:24
Speaker
But for now, thanks for everything. Thanks for your support. Thanks to our sponsors, Verity Credit Union, Full Pull Wines.
01:11:34
Speaker
Designer's Marble, Queen Anne acupuncture, and of course our broadcast partner Bootstrapper Studios. I am Jeremiah O'Shan, signing off on behalf of Aaron Campo and our engineer, Lickett, as well as Richard Farley, who has joined us now for three or four episodes in a row. He's become quite the fourth musketeer here. So anyway, this is No Sadietes. I'm Jeremiah O'Shan.
01:12:03
Speaker
Remember, you'll never get along.
01:12:48
Speaker
We love you. Let's win another one!