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The Significance of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy
219 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to The Lord of the Rings Month where we take the one podcast of power to Mount Zencastr. This week we discuss the iconic Peter Jackson trilogy. From its surprising beginnings in the Fellowship to its triumphant finale in 2003.
But after 20+ years on, does this series of films still hold up? And what is it specifically that makes this so beloved? All this and more in today's episode!
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Transcript
Introduction and Series Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
One podcast to record them all. One podcast to promote them. One podcast to publish them all. And the darkness subscribed to them. In the land of Zencast- Andrew, what are you doing? Um, nothing. Ah, full of a podcaster. Welcome to World of the Next Month.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello everybody, and welcome to the very first episode of The Lord of the Rings Month. My name's Satanami, and joining me to give me his sword, his bow, and Dita's axe is none other than the one and only Andrew. Andrew, welcome to The Lord of the Rings Month.
Canadian Thanksgiving and Cozy Themes
00:00:42
Speaker
One doesn't simply record one podcast on Lord of the Rings. So I've been told. So how are you doing tonight, Andrew?
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm good, yeah, it's Canadian Thanksgiving today, so it's a public holiday, which is very nice. The weather is a lot more autumnal than we've been used to the last few weeks, but yeah, I'm doing pretty well. It's that autumn weather, isn't it? Just absolutely freezing, the trees are turning a different shade, and you know what? It's a perfect month to go inside and watch a whole lot of fantasy films. What are you going to say again to listen to some podcasts?
00:01:14
Speaker
Well, that too,
Significance of Lord of the Rings
00:01:15
Speaker
yeah. So let's say theoretically your copy of Lord of the Rings doesn't work. Some red panda and or trivia's come in and scratch the discs and you have to listen to our month. Yeah, why don't you listen to our Lord of the Rings month instead?
00:01:29
Speaker
But yeah today we are excited because we are going to be talking about a franchise that quite frankly is very near and dear to both of us and that of course is the Lord of the Rings. So for the next month get cozy, get some lamba spread, get some meat if you're
00:01:46
Speaker
of appropriate age. Sit down, get yourself comfy as we talk about this very iconic set of films. So in this episode we are going to be focusing on the original three films, that of course being The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and last but not least The Return of the King. Now Tatsu, is it really the original Lord of the Rings films though?
00:02:08
Speaker
Well, yes, that is a very good point. Because surprisingly, this isn't the first time they've tried to make an adaptation of Lord of the Rings, is it? No, there's been several different attempts at making it, and there's been some animated versions of the Lord of the Rings films as well as the Hobbit films.
00:02:26
Speaker
trilogy we're talking about is the most well-regarded and most famous trilogy, the most watched of the Lord of the Rings adaptations. So we're quite excited. It's one of my favourite film franchises. I believe it's one of Sasanami's favourite film franchises as well. So a long time coming to talk about them. So what you're saying is we're not reviewing the 1978 Ralph Bakshi version. No, we're not going to do the Rankin Bass ones either. Oh, man.
Unmade Beatles Adaptation
00:02:51
Speaker
The Beatles did one too, didn't they? Was that the Ralph Faxey one as well, or is that different? No, I don't think they actually got to do it, but yeah, I'll be striking that off the trivia episode. Yeah, I couldn't believe when I read that, that the Beatles of all people wanted to do an adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. That actually blew me away. I was like, really? Got to take the ring to Mordor Frodo.
00:03:14
Speaker
Oh no. Destroying the ring with peace and love. As you said unfortunately we are with the Simele Peter Jackson films, you know critically acclaimed ones. I have to say touching on that point it's interesting because up until that point it was kind of considered that the Lord of the Rings was almost unfilmable because obviously they did try with the Ralph Bakshi one, they tried with the
00:03:39
Speaker
Rankin-Bast. They are animated ones of course but they're completely different and this was in 1978 and 1980 so it wasn't really the best of attempts. But before we get into the backstory about these films, what is your history with these films Andrew?
Personal History with the Films
00:03:57
Speaker
Were you always a fan of Lord of the Rings? Did you read the books or
00:04:00
Speaker
Not quite. As long as I can remember, I've been a fan of the movies. I watched them as they came out in the cinema. I was absolutely obsessed with the movies. I thought it was wonderful. I did not read the book trilogy and I still have never read the book trilogy because I started it and I just couldn't get into J.R.R. Tolkien's.
00:04:16
Speaker
style of writing. That was kind of a big hurdle for me. And because I already had such a keen interpretation of the story through the movies, I kind of wanted to keep that as why understood of the movies of the story rather. And so I didn't delve into the books after that. But I did read The Hobbit prior to the Hobbit trilogy coming out. So I have read one of the stories is the shortest, most
00:04:37
Speaker
childish of the stories. But yes, I have had a long history with the film franchise. I remember living in Singapore watching them and there was a expo special event that happened while we were over there of like this entire conference hall turned into entirely law of the rings theme. You went around and got to like learn about different behind the scenes bits and there was a gift shop where we purchased various trinkets from the films and there were actors dressed up as ring wraiths walking around the room and like scaring people mainly
00:05:07
Speaker
me. I have very fun memories. A lot of the rings became very important for me. I'd watch it every year. The trilogy pretty consistently would be one, especially if I had like a holiday or if I was feeling unwell, then it would be a good one to kind of just pop on because I knew it so well. So yeah, I have a very key relationship with these films. What about
Storytelling and Production Challenges
00:05:25
Speaker
yourself?
00:05:25
Speaker
Well, this might be the most controversial take of the episode, but I actually didn't get into these films until probably the second one, because I have to say I watched the first one at a friend's sleepover, of all things.
00:05:40
Speaker
and I remember they had the DVD of it and I remember watching it and kind of getting annoyed that it didn't have a conclusion because I didn't realise that Lord of the Rings was going to be this huge epic trilogy and everything so when it kind of just ended I was like oh the usual grumblings of a child but once I watched the second and third one I went to the cinema to see them I came to appreciate them a little bit more
00:06:06
Speaker
But it wasn't until I got older and, you know, started to understand the deeper themes of it and everything. That was when it became solidified as one of my favourite franchises ever. Honestly, I feel as though out of all the franchises out there, all the triloges, this is near perfect.
00:06:24
Speaker
as you're going to get to a consistent overarching story. I will agree with you though in the books. I think J.R.R. Tolkien is a absolutely brilliant writer. I think he is a linguistic genius and everything. That being said, his prose as you said is very tough to get into. I've read The Hobbit as well and I remember when I was younger I tried getting into the Lord of the Rings books but it's very much weighed down in a lot of
00:06:52
Speaker
prose, a lot of backstory, there's a lot of songs and everything and that's not a bad thing. I feel as if you have to be initially anyway, you have to be in like the right frame of mind to tackle it but when I started, I'm gonna admit it, I wasn't the biggest fan initially but I came to appreciate it, I grew to love it and
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's why we're here today, to basically talk about why these films are influential. And that's the thing, though. This nearly didn't happen, because for those of you who don't know, this film was first proposed to Miramax and, of course, the one and only horrible, horrible person himself, Harvey Weinstein, was running it at the time. And he never ruined this franchise right off the bat before it even had a chance to run, didn't they? Yeah, it was very strange that he was convinced that there wasn't going to be an audience if
00:07:42
Speaker
They made it quite as long as Peter Jackson wanted to make it. And so he tried to convince Jackson to cut down the movie and make it one short movie out for all three books and keep it within two hours, I think it was. And Jackson was so against this. He was like, this is impossible. This must be an empty threat. And Weinstein threatened to bring in John Madden or Quentin Tarantino to replace Jackson. But Jackson was like, no, this didn't happen. But they managed to sort of get away from Weinstein's grubby fingers over to another studio, didn't they?
00:08:12
Speaker
yeah they ended up going to New Line Cinema and yeah after that the rest was history. We finally got the franchise that fans deserved, moviegoers deserved and really just not only a great set of films but also just such a passion project and a love letter to Middle Earth and Tolkien's work as a whole and it was actually fascinating as well. Before we dive into talking about this series of films
00:08:39
Speaker
It is quite interesting to see how they were really close with the fans. They would keep up with, and again, that was probably a bit primitive, but the internet forms and things like that at the time to update fans on what was coming and things like that. It's quite rare, I have to say, to see that because most film studios, especially nowadays, they'll kind of just do something, whether the fans want it or not. It's not really they were getting an input, but they don't really include them, do they?
00:09:08
Speaker
No, no they don't. Rather than ostracising them and treating them as consumers, I suppose, is the right term. It's like they weren't just treating them as, oh these are the fans who are targeting it towards, these are the people that love the franchise and we want them to feel as if they're going to get something special out of this.
00:09:27
Speaker
That's not something that I came across in my research, so that's very interesting to hear that fans were considered because I know that in so many properties they aren't. It is very much what a studio believes the average Joe wants to see more so instead of a more poignant scene to just throw in a PG-13 nudity sex scene kind of thing. They didn't feel like they had to do that, although there was earlier versions of the script that did include
00:09:48
Speaker
Arwen joining them in Rohan and having like a nude bath with Aragorn and they're going to have Gimli swearing more until that would be like a funnier thing to include for the general audience but they decided against it. It's good that they take fan consideration to heart.
Promotion and Enduring Effects
00:10:01
Speaker
Not that that should always be the case because sometimes fans don't know what's best for their own franchises but it is good to hear. I was going to say, what is this game of thrones?
00:10:10
Speaker
But apparently after the 2004 Oscars, and I don't know if you came across this in your notes, but did you know that apparently Peter Jackson and Elijah Wood actually skipped the celebrations for it and then they went to Lord of the Rings fan party instead?
00:10:25
Speaker
I may have heard that at one point or other, but no, I didn't remember it if that was the case. That's very fun. I'm glad that they did that. It's a nice time hold round, I have to say. It's completely separate, but I just recently read about Greta Gerwig during the premiere of Barbie. She would just go from theatre to theatre and check how things were going and she'd be able to go and just change the volume on the cinema if she felt like it wasn't quite optimum in that particular theatre. That's funny. Will we just dive into it? Yeah, let's jump straight into that. We'll be right back just after we await these beacons.
00:10:55
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:11:14
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. Hey, Aunt Barbara. Hey, Karen Baby.
00:11:40
Speaker
We need to promote. You know, like where we talk about what we do on our podcast. On our sugar coated murder podcast. Like how we love to fake and talk about murder. That's what we need to talk about. There you go. I think we've talked about it. Y'all find us on all your favorite listening apps. Stay sweet. And don't murder. Because if you kill people. We will talk about you.
00:12:00
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zencaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zencaster comes in. Before I met Zencaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low-quality, one-track audio waves.
00:12:35
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
00:12:47
Speaker
So let's talk about the effects and production of this film series because let's face it whenever people think about Lord of the Rings you know there's so many aspects that you can grab and say oh this is absolutely fantastic that's absolutely fantastic
00:13:03
Speaker
but I feel as if the major thing that's got going for it and the thing that especially lets it hold up in the modern age is the effects and production. So what do you think first of all about the effects of this film? Do you think personally they've held up?
00:13:18
Speaker
I think considering the time period they came out, they've held up brilliantly. There was a couple of moments in my most recent rewatch where I went, that still doesn't hold up quite as well, like the Beatle bits with perhaps like Gollum, they CGI'd in that look a little bit computery, but
00:13:33
Speaker
considering when they came out, they're still incredible, absolutely magical how they were able to utilize special effects in that way. And like the set pieces was so wonderful. The locations in New Zealand did this film such a service as well. They were able to sort of create Minas Tirith, Helms Deep, Rivendell, The Shire, like these are all such beautiful, either set pieces or created in CGI that just look wonderful.
00:13:58
Speaker
And one of the studios that can be credited for most of the work done for this is a company called Weta Digital and Weta Workshop, who dealt with the prop making, the environments, doing the effects for Gollum, which was seen as a breakthrough. And it always makes me laugh because, you know, what film came out at the same time as The Two Towers? Is it King Kong? No, the Scooby Doo film. And that looks horrific.
00:14:26
Speaker
original or the second one? The original, apparently. Okay. They both look terrible, mind you, but... Well, yeah. I would say it's night and day, but let's face it, it's more like night and night. It's not very good. And that you don't want to see it. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, as you said, there were the creations of the sets which were dubbed as bigatures, and I absolutely love looking at the pictures of these. You know, they actually had bigger versions of
00:14:54
Speaker
Minas Tirith that weren't obviously the sex but they were like bigger version so they could do the panoramic shots that they could film it. They even had a bigger version of the ring which I thought was wild.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yeah, I always thought I'd find that very interesting when I'd see this gigantic ring that they created for various shots. The weirdest bit I always remember, and I could be misremembering this, but they were so dedicated in obviously getting paid for the work, but they were dedicated that when they were creating the chainmail, they actually made it by hand.
00:15:28
Speaker
I always remember watching this behind the scenes thing and I don't know why I remembered it so vividly but there's a scene where it's like all these guys huddled in a room making their chainmail one link at a time and I think in the corner they've got like a kidnapped Smurf or something just pinned up against the wall and that just looks like the most unhinged thing ever. They're like we gotta get these chainmails on it. Papa Smurf is, you know,
00:15:51
Speaker
sitting in the corner I was like this is both amazing and incredibly frightening but the fact is they are dedication to this film is definitely what makes it hold up and what I found interesting as well was there was a lot of sets that they built up
00:16:07
Speaker
but then took down immediately and there was little impact to the environment. Like, especially with Rohan, you know, they built that up and then they took it down again. I think they did the same with the Shire and the Shire wasn't a permanent thing until, you know, the phones were successful and everything. Yeah, I was gonna say, because I know that you can still visit the Shire now, so I was about to ask whether or not they took them down and put them back.
00:16:30
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure that's the case for the Shire. It was definitely the case for Rohan, and I think they did it for the Shire. They took it down, but then obviously The Lord of the Rings is probably like a big thing for New Zealand tourism. I know it has been a huge thing for New Zealand tourism. When the Hobbit films came out, they did a big campaign with New Zealand Airlines. The spread art on the side of the plane, all garages from the Hobbit, and all the instructional videos for safety videos were like law the rings themed.
00:16:57
Speaker
But speaking of the artwork as well, they also brought in Alan Lee and John Howe, who had previously illustrated for tokens work, which I thought was pretty cool. You know, they didn't just grab a random artist or someone in the studio, they actually brought in
00:17:12
Speaker
people who knew the story, what they were actually illustrating. It's not like they said Paint the Balrog and it was going to become like this AI monstrosity. And it did seem that the production was made by people who clearly cared about this. It's not like, and again I'm not doing this whole, oh Hollywood doesn't care about their own films here, but it seemed as if it was a rare instance that everybody was on board and they were just so dedicated to this series.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it is absolutely wonderful to see then, like, you can tell the care that was put into it by these people and the love that they had for these films. Peter Jackson, growing up, he wasn't a huge World of Rings fan as a child, but eventually fell in love with the series and the movies, and I'm pretty sure he ended up reading the similarities. He's pretty diehard by the end, I believe. I mean, after 10 chapters of Tom Bombadil singing, I suppose. It's like Stockholm Syndrome, isn't it?
00:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's funny you should mention Stockholm, because I know a lot of the themes or the story of All the Rings is very much Scandinavian in its approach. I think Sweden, Norway and Finland were big influences on Tolkien for the set pieces and designs of the story. Yeah, because I think was it not Beowulf, the story he was really into as well, which he drew inspiration from? Yeah, I believe so.
00:18:28
Speaker
Going off of that point as well, one thing I actually was really surprised to read was the fact that all three of these films were filmed within 15 months consecutively.
Music and Cinematography
00:18:39
Speaker
That is fascinating. It was brilliant for the consumer, the audience, for us.
00:18:43
Speaker
but I bet that was an absolute nightmare for the team to create all three films in that kind of time span. I mean, when you look at like the external editions of the stuff they even cut out, that's so much time spent filming on very elaborate scenes. So you imagine it can't have been like one take scenes. They must have gone through so many takes as well. So that would have been a lot.
00:19:01
Speaker
I mean what was even more interesting was when I was researching for this episode I didn't realise that there was even more unseen footage and granted it's mainly behind the scenes stuff but there's like hundreds of content that isn't even included in the extended edition or really anywhere else and I thought that is just bizarre that even in 2023 about 22 years on there's still a huge amount of
00:19:30
Speaker
content that's still coming out and that is just it's absolutely fantastic. That kind of leads on as well to another absolutely fantastic aspect of this film that of course being the musical score which was composed by Howard Shore and I have to say we were just talking about this before we started recording but the music is iconic
00:19:52
Speaker
It is. Music is so beautiful for all three films. The different instruments that are used, there's not a whole lot of singing, though there is some. And each one is done in a very kind of unique way from very kind of folksy songs sung by Marion Pippin to very kind of dramatic elven songs sung by the likes of Aragorn or others.
00:20:13
Speaker
And then of course you have Pippin singing the very kind of sombre song that's the backdrop of Faramir charging in to retake the port city. I can't remember its name.
00:20:25
Speaker
Exactly. Do you know, see that song, and you're sick of me sending you the memes for this, but I cannot watch anybody eat a tomato the same again without thinking about it. I know, it's just such a gross kind of way. Oh, it's just so disgusting. I know it's supposed to be, but it's just so disgusting. But there's all these videos that people have started making of their pets or other people eating a tomato.
00:20:51
Speaker
and then they just overlap that song and they sing it themselves. Oh, it's just so funny. The meme game's on point is what I'm saying. But something else that I find really interesting about the music score, and it's something that I didn't really think about initially, because honestly, so when you go into a film, you usually get swept away with the score where they make you feel, you know, happy, scared, all the range of emotions. But when you dive into this particular soundtrack,
00:21:19
Speaker
something that caught my eye was the fact that it doesn't shy away from its linguistic roots. And what I mean by that is there's particular songs that really capitalise on one of the interests that Tolkien had, which was of course his interest in the linguistic side. You know, he came up with the Elvish language, the Dwarven language,
00:21:39
Speaker
But one of the particular songs that caught my eye was the song that titled The Revelation of the Ringwraiths. And this is actually based on a poem written by the co-writer of the film Philopobolians who had wrote this in, I think it's Adunaic, I think it's the language, apologies to all the Lord of the Rings fans out there who simultaneously
00:22:02
Speaker
went, oh no. And apparently that, say, for anyone curious, it's the language of the Numenorean men of the Second Age. So the fact being that they didn't even have to do this, but they still said, oh yeah, we're gonna get this ancient language, we're gonna tie it into how the Numenoreans are related to the Ringwraiths who were once men, they got corrupted, and we're gonna turn this into a jamming chant.
00:22:29
Speaker
for them to come up as if they're just like ghoulish figures and they try to kill Frodo. I just find that absolutely fascinating. Did you know about that? No, I wasn't familiar with that at all. That's very interesting. And I mean, of course, as well, you've got the use of the Erwin language as well for some of Aragon songs. And this is actually something that was quite interesting as well. The fact that the soundtrack
00:22:55
Speaker
has like a very international feel which is something I never really considered but I was telling you Andrew of course before we started recording that apparently Viggo Mortison, the actor who played Aragon in the film, he came up with his own tune that he wanted to sing in Elvish and he wanted to give it a Celtic theme and I think the song that they're referring to is the one that he sings maybe in the extended edition that's been a while since I've seen the theatrical one but he sings it to himself when
00:23:24
Speaker
him and the Hobbits are travelling in the countryside and he's thinking about his true love Arwen and you know he sings that song and Frodo asks them who is that. They also included things like a Polynesian choir for the Mines of Moriam music. They used a mix of African and East Indian instruments for Lothlorian to give it more of an Eastern and ethereal kind of sound. It's actually really impressive
00:23:52
Speaker
and at the same time just absolutely breathtaking how much care and attention they put into the soundtrack. I mean, don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting them to put a battle-themed file from the copyright-free soundtrack in. Or just like do what a lot of films do and just have standard pop songs, just kind of throwing it at various points. Yeah, don't stop me now, as Aragorn's running towards Mordor. As Boromir's being pumped by the third arrow.
00:24:16
Speaker
i get knocked down i get up again and the final point for that before we move on is how they use the music also for characterization and this is something quite interesting to consider when we're talking about earlier with the ring itself where
00:24:33
Speaker
Apparently they used a boy's choir to sing when the ring was trying to seduce others into temptation. So you know when Boromir's got the ring and he's looking at it and you know it kind of paints the idea of the ring trying to be innocent. Oh look, we're the good guy, you know.
00:24:51
Speaker
take the ring and then when the ring quote-unquote emerges as this like evil on the level and thing and it unleashes its evil side then they use a lot more darker music they use the black speech in the background yeah it's fascinating
00:25:07
Speaker
that is very interesting how they are able to present that tone in such a way that you wouldn't necessarily have thought much about but has such an impact on the storytelling. I just love how we're talking about this and we're like, this is absolutely fantastic, the themes are great and everything, but when they first saw this film, I guarantee you and I were both just singing along going da da da da.
00:25:27
Speaker
So let's move on to the cinematography, and it's really no secret that this cinematography and this entire trilogy is, I wouldn't say near perfect, but let's face it, it pretty much is. Yeah, the cinematography of all three films is absolutely wonderful with the shot. I don't know if it's a helicopter shot, I don't think drone shots were around at this point, it must have been, but some of the helicopter shots they got of the characters walking in the mountains is gorgeous. Some of the general set piece shots of characters
00:25:57
Speaker
together so well put together, like it feels like you're kind of part of that fellowship through how Peter Jackson was able to film the movie, the shots that were used. Do you know funny enough when you brought up the helicopter, I think there's a blooper, I could be wrong on this, but it's not a blooper where Sean Bean is boring me trying to do a scene and then all of a sudden there's just the helicopter behind him that flies up. He's just like, oh okay.
00:26:21
Speaker
But no, I completely agree. I think the core thing for me anyway is the fact that every location in particular is very distinctive. It's like when you get your stereotypical and your generic fantasy or sci-fi cities or towns and things like that,
00:26:39
Speaker
you get a lot of greys and beiges and oh yeah it's genetic town it's this or that but these are places that you genuinely would want to visit you've got the Shire which is just verdant it's green it's just absolutely fantastic it's peaceful because I know the Shire is based on the
00:26:58
Speaker
English countryside of course. You've got Medestereth which is just the absolute, that is my, I would go as far to say other than Hobbiton of course, that is probably my favourite fantasy location. I was going to ask you if you could choose one place in the Lord of the Rings to visit, where would it be?
00:27:15
Speaker
that is a tough one. I would have to give it to Hobbiton sadly. Purely for aesthetics and everything, it would be Minas Tirith hands down. Minas Tirith is just such a breathtaking city. I remember the first time I saw it and it's just a city that is essentially carved into this mountain. I just remember seeing it for the first time in the cinema and thinking wow that is incredible. But on the other hand it's A on the doorstep to Mordor and B I don't think
00:27:43
Speaker
the Gondodians really know how to party and or eat the same as the Hobbits, so for what about yourself? See, there's a difference, because I think I would live in Hobbiton. Oh yeah. Of all of them. But just visiting, I think I would want to visit somewhere a little bit different, because us both coming from Scotland, it is a little bit like Hobbiton in various parts of Scotland, and so I feel like I've seen it, but like I would live there.
00:28:07
Speaker
Whereas if I'm visiting somewhere, I want to visit something that's remarkable, something I haven't seen before. So I'd probably say Minas Tirith would be one of the most interesting places to visit. If I was able to go around the whole city up to the top to the castle and have kind of an overlook over there, because you see such beautiful sites from there. There are other places. I mean, Rivendell would be gorgeous to visit as well. That would be remarkable for a once in a lifetime opportunity to see that. So I think, I prefer Rivendell actually. I think if I could visit one place, it'd be Rivendell.
00:28:36
Speaker
I would definitely take Rivendell over Lothorian because Rivendell is very, you know, I'm going to sound like a real estate agent here being like, it's open air, it's got a lot of nice views, it's close to the hobbits.
00:28:51
Speaker
It is prime location if you want to raise a family there, you know, but I was lovely reading this year's stereotypical Elvish settlement in the middle of the woods and everything. It's very otherworldly things and don't get me wrong, it's really cool the way they did it. But to visit there and live there, I mean, as she said, much like Hobbiton, Scotland can get quite dark as well. So, I mean, I feel as if I've already lived that with Lothloot.
00:29:16
Speaker
in so. The trouble with Lotharion though is you have some blonde lady just kind of wandering through very creepily, just saying strange proclamations about visions that she's having. I was on an Amazon Prime series. That is nice Galadriel. It was a hit. Okay, Galadriel. It was the most expensive show ever made. It doesn't show.
00:29:39
Speaker
anyway next week we'd have to have actually watched the entire series for us to do an episode on that yeah i'm not gonna lie i dipped out after episode three i think i got first episode two and that was about it either two or three the one where she jumps out the boat it's spoilers but anyway i keep being told like you need to give it more time but like two hours
00:29:59
Speaker
I feel like it's sufficient time to decide that you did not enjoy it. But here's the thing, what would you rather watch? Half of that series, roughly, or the extended edition of Return of the King? I mean, I know what I would rather watch. Yeah, obviously you'd watch Return of the King, and I did. By the way, I love how neither of us actually said that we would go visit Rohan.
00:30:24
Speaker
I did consider Rohan, but it is this kind of plains, like it's a horse, it's a horseland, and like horses are fun, and I would love to ride some horses, but like... There's nothing there. It's not very interesting. I do love a Rohan as a faction and everything, but as a tourist destination...
00:30:41
Speaker
Maybe not. Mind you, okay, so between like Rohan's main city, is it just called Rohan or is Rohan the region? Oh my god, we're gonna get ripped apart for this. Between where the Rohan capital is and like Helms Deep, which I believe is still within the region of Rohan, there were some pretty beautiful sections there. And that little town that got raided by the orcs. Also very pretty. The main region of Rohan that we kind of see is just kind of a bit boring. It's actually called Edoras, thank you very much. Oh, you looked it up, nice one.
00:31:09
Speaker
You're going to edit yourself saying that earlier in the conversation, so you sound really smart. Oh, you mean Edorath? Yes, of course. What pleb would not know Edorath? Oh god, I'm going to get crucified if I say it's like Whiterun from Skyrim, but that kind of idea. Open-air, fortified town. Not very good to hold up in if you're going to get invaded. That's why they went to Helm's Deep, of course. Helm's Deep is not a place I would want to go.
00:31:35
Speaker
No, it's a bit concretey. Well, not concrete, it's a bit stony. Again, the fact there's no exits. There is a tunnel system. They all got into that tunnel system to run away in. All the women and children did, sorry. Yeah, I mean, that's true. Which, okay, bringing up a point, my partner, she said, so how does it work with the women and children who just ran away there? Like, does someone have to go fetch them? Oh my God, you're right. Are they still running? The war is over.
00:32:04
Speaker
Eowyn! Eowyn, come back! Keep running, children. I'll make for Minas Tirith. They've learned to mimic our partner's screams. I can still hear their voices. Stop. I'm still alive, woman. Such a beautiful singing voice. But speaking of places like Chelms Deep, Minas Tirith, something that I do find interesting as well is the fact that the film doesn't shy away from throwing you into these grand locations as well as the visceral action that accompanies them.
00:32:34
Speaker
Because as much as I wouldn't like to visit Helm's Deep for a myriad of reasons, in particular the fact that I don't want to get skewered by Inurikai, it doesn't do so much. I mean, there are violent moments in this franchise, but they don't make it gratuitous. They don't do it like, oh, look, it's all bloody. Well, whereas they do have moments like that, but they don't really linger, if you know what I mean.
00:32:57
Speaker
You know, like Game of Thrones for example, where it's like they chop someone's head off and then they spend the next 10 minutes going, oh my god, he's not got a head. And everyone's got blood absolute all over them. Yeah, and it was like the main characters, uncles, aunts, roommate, twice removed. Yeah, I mean, between the Battle of Helm's Deep, the Battle of Minas Tirith, especially the finale for the fellowship, which still gets me, it doesn't treat the audience as a passive viewer.
00:33:24
Speaker
You know, as you were saying earlier, it takes them along in the journey and makes them feel like they're part of the fellowship. You're not watching three people walk through Middle-earth. You're joining Aragon, Legolas and Gimli through their journey. You're not just watching two Hobbits walk to Mount Doom. You're following, you know, and so on and so forth. And I have to admit, going on to something you were saying again about the things that don't hold up,
00:33:51
Speaker
Something that I did notice, and I'm curious to hear if you noticed this as well, that see the further these films went on, the less realistic some of the action became, and I feel as if it's more apparent with Legolas especially.
00:34:06
Speaker
I watched a very interesting video on the problem with Legolas. He's kind of too perfect. They kind of keep upping the stakes on various silly action scenes that he has to make him super cool, but they have to differentiate him from Aragorn, who's also the cool guy in the group.
00:34:23
Speaker
So they have to create much more fantastical ways that Legolas is cool, like these shield surfing, taking down the Ollie Fant. They managed to humanize him in certain ways, like his competition with Legolas and clearly seeing that it get arced him and that he did have that competition. But yeah, I can certainly see what you mean about how they had to create very strange action special effects for scenes, including Legolas, which can be much more apparent in The Hobbit, but was still prevalent in each subsequent Lord of the Rings movie.
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah, because I feel as if it doesn't entirely undermine the Batu for Minas Tirith, but when you see Legolas doing that kind of stuff, and you're like, wow, those Rohan people, they weren't putting their all into taking those Oliphants down. The people at Gondor, like, oh yeah, they were chumps compared to Legolas, yeah.
00:35:09
Speaker
kind of undermines that at times, but again, it's supposed to be the rule of cool, I suppose. The, oh look, it's like a last season and the life and so on and so forth, which I know is kind of a problem with the Lord of the Rings as a whole, that the elves are a wee bit too perfect at
Balance of Action and Character Development
00:35:27
Speaker
times. Except for Helm's Deep, ironically enough, because I know in Helm's Deep they pretty much get slaughtered there,
00:35:33
Speaker
Moving on from that, the final point I've got for the cinematography is just that I feel personally that it does strike a near-perfect balance between slower character building moments versus high octane action. You know, because when you see the trailers for this, I always remember the
00:35:52
Speaker
Requiem for a Dream song playing over Legolas' surfing down, shooting people in Helm's Deep. But yeah, I feel as if there's more to it than the action. Like, the action is very, very cool. I mean, especially with scenes like, and again, I think we'll probably talk about this later, but with the Ride of the Rohirrim where they actually got over 200 horse riders to ride with it. Yeah, the fact they got 200 people for that scene, and that is one of the best scenes
00:36:20
Speaker
probably of... well, yeah, I would say of cinema. It's one of the best scenes, just that whole sequence of them riding towards them. But what are your thoughts on that? I mean, other than the obvious one like the Ents, I feel as if that's probably the only moment where I'll say it kind of drags on a bit. But would you say that the films strike that perfect balance between slower character building versus the fast-paced action?
00:36:49
Speaker
I do think they do very well. I think that if you look at the two very different movies, there's the theatrical version and the extended edition. And they do come across as quite different in movies, just purely down to how certain things were included that in some instances were a nice additional scene to add more to the film. And the other occasions you understand why they were cut because they didn't really add very much to it. And sometimes we're just overly silly. And so it's tricky because I think that the tone of
00:37:19
Speaker
the main film is balanced so well with how they deal with the cinematography. I in particular, you've been touching on this, but I in particular have not really mentioned other elements of the cinematography other than the kind of wide shots of the locations. The Jackson crew were able to catch the different angles of the faces
00:37:38
Speaker
of the characters that were able to demonstrate the emotions of those characters are. I think, I mean, this is film 101, like every film will do this, but I think it's just a motive so, so well within this trilogy that just such subtle changes in how the characters are filmed demonstrates so much about them as characters.
00:37:59
Speaker
No, I completely agree with that. It's actually one of the points that I've written down for later, mind you, but one of the characters I feel as if encapsulates this perfectly is Bernard Till, who plays the Eden. I feel as if some of his expressions, even without speaking, are just absolutely fantastic.
00:38:19
Speaker
there's the scene where he's talking about how his sons died and everything, and he's just talking about how, you know, obviously no parent should have to bury their child, and he breaks down and everything. There's an excellent scene as well for the writer that I heard him, where he just looks at Minas Tirith, and just that one look says it all. It's just this weird mix of absolute horror watching this once proud city burning under the pressure of this just horrible evil force.
00:38:48
Speaker
It goes from that horror to suddenly acceptance and then he regains his composure again. Burnham Hill in those scenes is brilliant and the capturing of his emotions through the cinematography is indeed fantastic. And I'm sure we'll get into this later with regards to the various casting that happened.
00:39:05
Speaker
interesting that Bernard Hill was actually in line as an option for Gandalf at one point, so I'm very glad he instead was cast as Theoden because I think he plays that role brilliantly. I have to say though, and I feel as if this is a perfect time to move on to talk about both the characters and the actors who portrayed them, because going on to Gandalf was not like a conga line of actors that were just waiting to take this role on, or rather that they were asking people to take this role on.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's so interesting. I think Gandalf probably more so than any other character had such a large number of actors that were either considered or put the names forward for. I know the likes of Tom Baker and Sam Neill would be a very strange choice, but he was in line. Peter O'Toole passed away now.
00:39:48
Speaker
I'm not sure who Tom Wilkinson is, but I know he was considered, as well as likes of Patrick Magooin, who, and Anthony Hopkins, but I know Magooin was supposed to be Denethor, but then they were like, he's too grumpy for Denethor, the most grumpy character in the entire series. And so that particular actor was not considered. It's like that scene in the substance where it's like, I need a grumpy actor. No, that's too grumpy.
00:40:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I was even surprised when Sean Connery was offered the role and then he was just like, no, I don't get it. And they went to do the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Something like that. Yeah. And then they considered Morgan Freeman, which would have been a very unique take on Gandalf. I'm sure Morgan Freeman would have done well in the role, but it seems a very different kind of choice. Well, I mean, ironically enough, he technically got that role in the Lego movie, didn't he? That's true. He is very Gandalf-y in the Lego movie. Because I know technically Gandalf is and that, but you know what I mean.
00:40:43
Speaker
Well, I know as well that prior to McKellen, Ian McKellen, that is, sorry, they were looking at Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen's very good friend to play the role, and they watched a scene of the two of them together, and they were like, actually, his co-star would be a much better choice. So instead of Patrick Stewart, we got Ian McKellen for the role of Gandalf. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
00:41:02
Speaker
feel as if they made the right choice there. Maybe it's just bias because we've watched his films so many times and we're used to it. I mean, I'm a Star Trek fan. I can't imagine Jean-Luc Picard going in there being Gandalf. I don't know. I think he would. He's a great actor.
00:41:18
Speaker
Oh no. It would have been a very different tone of Gandalf. What McKellen provides to the role is that he has that kind of hint of mischief in him, as well as the kind of wisdom. And so I think McKellen portrays that particular tone, which I think is very important for Gandalf so, so well, which I don't think Patrick Stewart would have conveyed in the same way. Patrick Stewart would have provided that kind of wise portrayal, but I don't think he has that level of mischief about him.
00:41:43
Speaker
to say, speaking of potential casting in this, another one that you and I were of course talking about before we came on was Stuart Townsend who apparently, and again I had no idea this was a thing because I always assumed that Viggo Mortensen was picked as Aragon and they said, oh yeah this is gonna be our Aragon, we're gonna go ahead and start filming.
Casting Highlights
00:42:07
Speaker
But they had a completely different Aragon waiting to go for this film.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah, so they deemed Stewart Townsend after already casting him to actually be too young, which sucks for Townsend. But as we discussed prior to the recording, it doesn't sound like Townsend was super committed to the role in the first place. So it was probably for the best that was kind of a mutual agreement to part ways. I don't know if that was necessarily the case, but that does seem to be what happened. I know that it was then kind of up between Viggo Mortensen and Russell Crowe as to who would be the Aragorn. Russell Crowe tried to audition for Boromir as well, which would have been a choice.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah, A choice. There's right choices, there's wrong choices, and then there's that choice. Do you know who New Line initially wanted to be Barmere? No, actually. Nicholas Cage? I'm conflicted.
00:42:55
Speaker
Oh, one arrow. Oh, two arrows. No, not the hobbits. They're in my eyes. There's good in men. We can take it to Gondor. Any people who are very good at editing software, get on this.
00:43:11
Speaker
I feel as if, you know when people talk about deepfake technology and AI voices and things, I feel as if they should be halting all development and getting a cut where Nicolas Cage is boring me. Get on that guys, come on.
00:43:26
Speaker
about the other couple of unique kind of things with regards to casting. One was going back to Gandalf. I know Christopher Lee was so committed to wanting to be Gandalf that he sent a picture of himself in a wizard's costume to be a Jackson to cast him as Gandalf, and Jackson was decided instead he'd be a better sour man, which worked out quite well. Plus did he not? No talking personally.
00:43:45
Speaker
So Christopher Lee did have a relationship with Tolkien in some way. I can't remember the exact relationship. I know he was obsessed with the stories. I think to the point where he was kind of giving notes during the film process of how like certain characters should be, how certain things should be and then filmed. So Christopher Lee was very keen on this movie franchise and like being a part of it. So it was so wonderful to see that such a fan was a part of these films.
00:44:11
Speaker
Have you heard about the behind the scenes of his death scene? I don't remember. So for anyone who doesn't know, in the theatrical cut, I think they just say he's walked away in this tower, and you know, they just never mentioned Saruman again. I had not seen the theatrical version for a while, so I couldn't remember whether or not we did actually see Saruman's death, or if they just kind of picked up the orb and was just like, oh, we found his orb.
00:44:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's how it plays out in the theatrical version. They just find the orb and they're like, oh yeah, and they enter like, who's inside his tower? And you're like, okay, well, we're not going to get to see it. But yeah, in the extended version, they have the whole back and forth. And that's when Dream of Wormtongue, who's played fantastically as well by Brad Dorff,
00:44:56
Speaker
they found the scene where he gets stabbed and he came up to Peter Jackson and they went, that's not how somebody getting stabbed in the back sounds. And he was like, okay. Because I think he served in World War II or something. He did. And he fought for the, I think the Finnish army or something during World War II or something like that.
00:45:18
Speaker
Yeah, baby, shit, I've told Peter Jackson that's not how someone sounds getting stabbed in the bag. He's like, you have to have a kind of, oh, as if you're surprised. And I was like, oh, my God.
00:45:31
Speaker
imagine being Peter Jackson like, okay, Mr Lee, whatever you say. It's a fair bit better than the likes of Alec Guinness in the original Star Wars, who had such disdain for the film and had zero interest in this ridiculous production. Instead you have Christopher Lee, who's like so involved in it all. Oh yeah, it was definitely a lovely bit of love for the most part.
00:45:52
Speaker
I mean, I know there were some challenging things, especially with the hobbits, which I know we'll talk about next week when we get on to the hobbit trilogy, but yeah, things like having to spend hours putting on hobbit feet and things like that, and I think it was Sam. You're at the very end of the fellowship where he runs into the water. Yeah, and he steps in a bit of glass. And did you know that Aragon broke his
00:46:18
Speaker
I never found this conversation with you or someone else, but there was that whole meme about Aragorn breaking his foot on the helmet. Why isn't the Sean Astin stepping on the glass thing just as much of a meme? Because I feel like that's essentially the same fact. Well, because one of those clips made it into the film.
00:46:35
Speaker
That's very true. That's very true. But I mean, it's kind of just around the scene. I mean, I do the same thing as I do with the Aragon when I turn to my partner and be like, you know, Sean Astin stepped on Glass here and they had to halt production for like three months. Do you know, can you imagine if they did?
00:46:56
Speaker
I can see why one's memed, but one does not simply meme.
00:47:05
Speaker
casting. There was just a couple of other that kind of put their names forward or were actually cast at one point in the film that were then recast, who were then casted like 10 years later in the puppet franchise. So it's quite interesting that they still had such an interest for these actors being a part of it. So they brought them into the puppet franchise, which we'll talk about more in the next episode. Did you know that Tim Curry was in line for Saruman? I love how you just could have ended that sentence with, did you know Tim Curry? That would have piqued my interest immediately.
00:47:34
Speaker
You're not Tim Curry. You're Tim Curry. Yes, go on. Tim Curry is a fine actor, but as Saruman, I don't... See, this is the thing that's like, on the one hand you think, oh, that would never work, but you don't know. I mean, there's an alternate universe out there where this is a two-hour film. Tim Curry's Saruman. I was going to the one place that Hobbits can't get us.
00:48:00
Speaker
Space!
00:48:13
Speaker
Morgan Freeman. Oh, Morgan Freeman, sorry. Morgan Freeman. Alice Gandalf. And for me, I played by the titular Nicholas Cage. And funny enough, Stewart Townsend is still in it. Ah, the horrifying alternative future this fall. But what I will say though is, we've touched on a couple of examples there, but I feel as if the core fellowship do a really great job and have a lot of chemistry together. Especially with Sean Bean. I know there's the meme of, oh, Sean Bean dies and everything.
00:48:42
Speaker
But I feel as if his relationship with the Hobbits and the tearjerker scene when he finally dies and he has the my brother or my captain my king speech at the end with Aragorn, the only person, and I don't know if you've heard this theory about Frodo not knowing Legolas' name.
00:49:00
Speaker
I have. My father and I were discussing that during the end of Return of the King. It's like he mounts everyone else's name and then he's just like this has his mouth open like, ah, when Legolas comes in. So I did know that I don't believe he says Mary and Pippin's name when they come in. I know, but it's still hardly a thought. It is very funny to think about because there is only one line
00:49:19
Speaker
ever spoken between them and it's when Legolas is and my bow in the entire film franchise, even the extended edition, that is the only time that Frodo and Legolas share a line together. That is absolutely crazy. It's something that I have to admit must be like a sign of the film being so good that I've never noticed that before and then people brought it up and you're like, oh yeah,
00:49:42
Speaker
This is quite interesting. But I feel as if, obviously, the fellowship are the stars, as it were. Even when they split up, they've still got their solo careers, as it were. You've got, obviously, the Gandalf story of Aregon, Gimli and Legolas. You've got the Frodo and Sam story. I mean, you've got Merriam Pippin, which I like Merriam Pippin, I have to say, but in kind of small doses at times. I feel as if when it gets to the Ent stuff,
00:50:09
Speaker
It lost me for a bit when I first watched it, but I mean, see overall, I feel as if there's not really a bad, I'd actually say that, there's not really a bad performance in this film. No, there's not really. When I was younger, I would sometimes fast forward through certain bits that I didn't find as interesting. A lot of the time it was to throw down some bits when I was younger, because I wanted to kind of get to the more actiony kind of sections. But I've kind of now appreciated those scenes a little bit more.
00:50:37
Speaker
I have to say, Elijah Word is probably my least favourite performance of everyone else. There are certain moments that he does show off his talent quite well, but I think there's a lot of scenes where I'm a bit like that look kind of goofy. Yeah, I think it's the way it's shot, because there's some angles where it makes them look like a thumb.
00:50:55
Speaker
and I'm like, I'm not all for this camera angle, could you like push it up a wee bit? Or okay, we're going to go with this angle. Okay, good. But funny enough, when I showed my partner this film for the first time, she actually really disliked Frodo when they got to the bit at the end where he's in the bed and they're all hugging him and saying, yay, well done Frodo. She turned round to me and she went, why are they saying thank you to him? He did nothing, it was all sad.
00:51:21
Speaker
I was like, yeah, I think it's universally agreed that without Sam, he probably wouldn't have gotten very far. No, he very much would not have gotten very far without Sam. He would have died on several occasions without Sam, but yeah. I mean, it's the whole thing of the burden of carrying the ring that he was able to fight it off for the most part until the very end. It wasn't until Gollum intervened that we likely would have seen the ring fall into the volcano in the first place.
00:51:48
Speaker
I would say looking back on it, he probably is maybe the weakest character in the way. He's not the worst before I get stabbed by a thousand replica stings and everything from angry Lord of the Rings fans here. He's not the worst character, but I think the older I get the more inclined arm to prefer characters like
00:52:10
Speaker
Sam. Because let's face it, they practically had to CG out his huge titanium bolts of steel in half the scenes, where he basically got betrayed by his friend, he got left for dead in the away, and yet he still put up with all his you-know-what and carried him through to the mountain. And it's just such a glorious scene. He's taking the whole gardener role that he's been hired to do very seriously.
00:52:33
Speaker
Yeah, he just wants to go back and plant some daisies or something, but no, Frodo keeps messing about being like, I can't do it, Sam. It's okay, Mr Frodo. One, two, three. And you know, just throws him into the fire. But my alternate ending aside here, yeah, I feel as if I prefer Sam and a lot of the other characters. There's not really
00:52:52
Speaker
any other characters I can think of off the top of my head. I thought Eowyn did a good job as well. I quite like the extended edition stuff with her. I like the little insight into how terrible she is as a cook that we don't get in other places. Also, I learned today that Andy Serkis voices the Witchking of Agmar.
00:53:13
Speaker
I couldn't see Voice's goal. And I was like, boy have I got some news for you. Now that is pretty cool. That's my helmet. And he's like, his voice is quite a few different characters. Do you know, it's actually amazing because, and I'm getting ahead of myself, I'll briefly touch on it this week, but apparently because, you know, he was so impactful for the series as the motion capture actor for Gollum as well was actually providing the voice and everything, that I think he became a director for the Hobbit films.
00:53:42
Speaker
One of the secondary ones. I believe that is the case. Also, sorry to correct myself. He voiced the Witch-King of Angmar in the Fellowship, but not in the Return of the King, where he's like, no man couldn't kill me. That was someone else. Yeah, and then you get the cool scene of, I am no man, and then boom. That's my partner's favourite scene. She always leans forward and waits for it. To be fair, it is a pretty damn cool scene. That whole sequence, the whole battle, chef kiss. Absolutely fantastic. Because I mean, Carl Urban is also in this film, which I keep forgetting.
00:54:12
Speaker
I know, I always forget that Carl Urban's in his film playing Eomer. And it doesn't look like him, so I always forget. He's in so many different franchises. Because Peter Jackson's even in this one, granted as an extra. I kind of remember who he is in Return of the King. I know in the first one, when they go to the first town... He's in The Prancing Pony, isn't it? Yeah, he's Carrot Man. He literally walks by the camera and he eats a carrot.
00:54:36
Speaker
Yeah, he always has like a weird little scene. There's a scene in the Hobbit films where I think he pokes out of a barrel or something. Oh, what a scamp. Yeah, everybody does a great job. There's nobody else, surely, is there? No, there's some that are like, whatever. I used to really like Faramir, but then I kind of find him a bit boring now. I mean, Denethor is good. Denethor was brilliant. He's awful, but brilliant. Oh yeah, he plays the role so darn good.
00:55:02
Speaker
And as we said, we can't look at the act of tomato eating the same again, ever since that. Yes, he's just driven my absolute madness. That's another scene that I have to say that I was disappointed to cut out the theatrical cut, where Fadimir has the flashback to when they retake Oskiliath.
00:55:21
Speaker
Okay, so you think they should have kept that into the theatrical version? Mm-hmm. Okay, I'm the opposite. I was watching the extended and I was like, this scene doesn't add much more than just be like, hey, Boromir was actually kind of cool, right? There's a much worse scene in Extended Edition that is Denethor imagining Boromir over Faramir's shoulder.
00:55:38
Speaker
Yes. It's so poorly presented. I don't know what they were thinking because it looks so unnatural. They photoshopped in Boromir that just kind of turns around. Is that when he does like the L'Oreal hair flip? He does. It's so strange.
00:55:54
Speaker
And he does a little turn, smiles towards the camera, and starts walking towards. He's not actually moving. It doesn't look like he's actually moving, but he's presenting like he's moving. And it's so poorly done. I was like, why did they think this was a good idea? This is the most obvious cut from the extended to theatrical. I could sort of see. Thank God this didn't make it to theatrical, because this is ridiculous. I can't wait for the director's edition, where they've just superimposed Nick Cage's face there instead.
00:56:21
Speaker
Or Liam Neeson. Liam Neeson apparently declined the role. Yeah, I can live with that, to be honest. I mean, I love Liam Neeson films for the most part, but yeah, I can live with that choice. Sarah, I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want.
00:56:37
Speaker
it's a ring you're looking for, I can tell you, you're not going to get it. It's been taken. And then that's that, just cut the film. We're very in Pippin, they've been taken. Borrow me, you have three hours and you, it's a special set of skills that I've got. So our final point is really a bit of a subjective one where we were both talking of course about what makes this set of films great.
00:56:58
Speaker
And you know, we have gone through all the objective ones. We went through the effects, the production value, about how they're fantastic, about how all the people were dedicated to the song, how the actors were 100% behind their characters in the story. We also talked about the brilliance of the musical score in the cinematography. And speaking of the characters, I just want to say that for legal reasons, Hugo Weaving was also a great actor as well, because I realize we forgot to mention him.
00:57:28
Speaker
Oh yeah, Mr. Baggins. Yeah, because I was like, yeah, we don't mention.
00:57:35
Speaker
Kirk, you go weaving, waiting. And Rivendell, like, no one remembers me. You know, we talked about all of them, the cinematography, the music score, all of these objective reasons, essentially, about why these films worked. But now we're going to go into more subjective territory. So, Andrew, I'm going to hand it over to you first. And this is going to be the broad question of the night here. But why do you think this trilogy succeeds?
00:58:02
Speaker
It's a tough one to kind of put your finger on for me. I think that the fantasy storytelling of Tolkien does it a huge service. But as we've seen from other adaptations of that that did not stand the test of time that aren't spoken about in such esteem, it's
00:58:17
Speaker
How this film in particular was shot, the set pieces, the cinematographer which we've already mentioned, it's able to tell this fantasy story in such an immersive way that you feel so a part of the adventure.
00:58:32
Speaker
unlike any other fantasy film that I think I've ever seen and has been able to do, it involves its audience so much in not just one, because there are several different stories ongoing during this trilogy, and you're interested in each character and each storyline, respectively, but you have your favourites.
00:58:52
Speaker
and that even with your favorites there are other characters that you just fall in love with as well that there are so many memorable lines and things that 20 years later are still being brought up and reference jokes about memes have been made I mean one of the original memes was one does not simply walk into Mordor 10 15 years ago
00:59:11
Speaker
still transcends to now with Aragon kicking your helmet. It stood the test of time that people joke about it, but they love it as well that it's not something that's being made fun of necessarily. It's enjoyed people can laugh at it and also with it and you're being told such an impact
00:59:27
Speaker
full story through this intensely unique and extensive medium. I don't know if I've touched on some of what you'll say or if I've just rambled a favourite there but I've been interested to know your thoughts. Well, before I go into my thoughts, you forgot about one very special meme that also arose from these films. What's that?
00:59:45
Speaker
a dubstep variety meme of the Hobbits getting taken to Isengard. Of course, how could I forget taking the Hobbits to Isengard? It's absolutely brilliant. And there's also Saruman Trolololling as well, which is a wonderful meme if you've seen that one. Oh, I have, because after that I showed my girlfriend that meme, the taking the Hobbits to Isengard one, and she looked at it, looked at me and then shook her head and I was like, okay, that's enough of that.
01:00:11
Speaker
OK. My partner loves it. She was waiting for the line to come up. I mean, then again, I do have a curated playlist that I'll need to add whenever we're out driving and be like, oh, how did this song get in here? But no, I think they're all fantastic points that you brought up there.
01:00:26
Speaker
Honestly, as we talked about, there is so much objectively that just went right into this film. This was a film that was a massive gamble. It had tons of money put behind it, it had a vision, everyone wasn't sure but they still went ahead because they loved it. I think in that regard it's commendable and I think that's why ultimately it did succeed because there were a lot of people that had faith.
Themes and Emotional Impact
01:00:52
Speaker
But in terms of why I think personally Lord of the Rings succeeds now as a franchise is one particular thing and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this but it's the idea that the whole central theme of these films is the theme of hope.
01:01:07
Speaker
because it's a very well-known fact, of course, that the whole idea of Order the Rings is the idea of the quote-unquote little man both in a literal sense of being hobbits and figuratively trying to do what's right. And if it was a
01:01:23
Speaker
especially nowadays but I feel as if he go even further back to when these were written because Tolkien fought during the First World War and he no doubt lived through the effects of the Second World War. It would have been hard for him to stay positive and especially nowadays it's hard to stay positive in a world where nihilism and
01:01:45
Speaker
the apathy are just rampant. You know, you see it everywhere you go, whether you log into your way to social media, whether you walk up on the streets and you see people, you know, just going through a rough time. And that might have been ostensibly worse back then, but the fact is those kind of ideas are always going to plague people. It's always going to be this thing that follows people around. And I feel as if the counter to this is one particular line that I don't think
01:02:14
Speaker
was even used in the books that was used for the movie, which I was really surprised at, but it's a quote that I personally take to heart every time I think of these kind of things. It's the scene at the very end, and you'll know the one I mean, where
01:02:29
Speaker
Sam is talking to Frodo, and Frodo has essentially given up. He nearly kills Sam over the Ring's influence, and you know, he's beaten down, he's just, he's what's end, he's saying what's the point of going on, and Sam has this beautiful speech about all these heroes and the story and everything, and then he basically summarizes with one sentence, and the sentence of course is, there's still some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for.
01:02:57
Speaker
And I feel as if that encapsulates the entire trilogy. This is a story about hope. It's an escapist fantasy, don't get me wrong, but the way it uses this idea of the good guys versus the bad guys, like it's not like something, for example, Game of Thrones or a kind of political drama or anything like that. It's not overly complicated with the way they portray each side. I want to hear the orcs' side. I mean, really, they've got some very good opinions.
01:03:25
Speaker
In fact, I think it was actually slightly off topic, but I think it was a Russian retelling of Lord of the Rings, where they tried to paint Sauron as the good guy for trying to bring in industrialisation. Suffice to say, it didn't really go down very well, but that's a story for another day. Even if you look at other moments in the trilogy, like for example, I brought up earlier about Bernard House and
01:03:46
Speaker
amazing performance as King Theoden and just that moment where they do the Ride of the Rehiram, it always sticks with me. And I think as of this day, I looked up the scene again on YouTube and I think it's got 40 million views on one person's channel. That is how beloved this scene is. The reason I think that stands out as well is it's also from the other side.
01:04:10
Speaker
encapsulates this idea of hope, because he sees the city, as I said, he sees it burning, it's under siege, there's no hope, it's as if men will fall right there at them. But, you know, he composes himself and he becomes the leader that they really need at that moment. You know, he has that great speech about writers of theatre rising up, and he always yells the iconic death and everything,
01:04:35
Speaker
they just pound towards them. And they know that they're going to die. They know that there's probably a sudden chance of them getting out of this. But if it means for just one more day, they can give the world a man hope and liberate them from this evil, then there's a chance there. And apologies for getting sappy over this. But you know, it's a whole story, as I said, about hope, about that idea of escapism and being able to see the better part of people. But I'm curious to hear what you have to say, because I apologize for that long winded rumble there.
01:05:05
Speaker
No, I mean, it was as long if not shorter than my own. It's interesting what you were saying about that quote, because that then reminds me of mine that I popped in that from the very first film that is taken directly from Tolkien of all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. And I think very kind of similar to what you were saying that resonates
01:05:21
Speaker
with me so well that it's kind of a theme of the film that you could let things pass you by, you could refuse to be involved in these events, but you choose with the time that you are given what impact you are going to make, whether it's a personal impact, whether it's a more grand, profound impact, you have that power over yourself to decide what are you going to do with your life. And I think that is so beautiful. And I think that Tolkien writing that 100 years ago, or however long I've been more close to 80 years ago, hits
01:05:51
Speaker
home to me so hard. He definitely, and I know this is a weird thing to say considering it's one of the most iconic pieces of literature in the 20th century, but it's amazing how his way of words really did resonate with so many people and how because of that book, because of this world that you built up,
01:06:10
Speaker
the fact that we got such a prolific and such an iconic series out of it. You know, because let's face it, this film could have easily been a cash grab. I remember reading about when they were going to make this into two films. They were going to merge Gondor and Lohan together and everything, and they were going to do a whole load of things to cut corners, but the fact that they got the chance to tell their story
01:06:38
Speaker
and then tell it in such a beautiful way. I always remember one of the memes that people say about Return of the King is the fact that it's like a never-ending story. But before I go on just to say what I think about it, are you a fan of the ending?
01:06:54
Speaker
This is a tricky one because I would have said yes, but watching a couple of days ago, I did find that it was dragging a fair bit. And I was kind of like, all right, we've had about three, four endings now. Meanwhile, my partner was in tears by the final ending. She was like, I don't understand why Frodo has to go. And so that was, it's quite sad, but I can kind of understand that particular ending. But yeah, I do find it drags. I think that they could have condensed some of the ending down a little bit. I guess I'll plug those cut to block.
01:07:22
Speaker
Someone fires an arrow, cuts the log. The ring hits the lava and it cuts the log. Oh, that would be the worst.
01:07:29
Speaker
Frodo puts on the ring at the end and he says, no, it's mine. It's the ring on and then it cuts it black. You don't see what happens after that. Okay, what's worse, that ending or the Michael Bay ending where he puts it on? It's like the Transformers credits. What's worse? If Michael Bay did it when the ring hits, the entire world would explode.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. I mean, the volcano exploded. Isn't that enough, Mr Bay? Not enough. More. More. Yeah, I have to say though, I'm probably with your partner in this one. With my girlfriend and I, we watched it together for the first time. We were both just absolutely sobbing wrecks by the end of it. Good
01:08:12
Speaker
you know it was funny when we were watching the scene where everyone's hugging Frodo and everything and she was angry because she was like well Sam's the real hero why they saying thanks to him but not to Sam and I thought that was kind of funny but then several scenes that really hit me in the feels and I mean both of me are getting struck by the arrow to your feels because there are a couple of moments where genuinely they do either make me tear up or
01:08:38
Speaker
they just made me quite emotional. Boring me a scene, and the first one, that always gets me, that even though, you know, he was corrupted and everything, he still managed to bring himself back from the brink in those final moments. I thought that was absolutely beautiful when they kept fighting until those three arrows hit him. I was like, Jesus, what an absolute unit. Even for Sean Bean, what an absolute unit.
01:09:00
Speaker
for the second one, you know, the hope at Helm's Deep that even though all hope is lost, he still rides out to meet them and then they get rescued by Gandalf and Goh. But in terms of the ending itself, the bit that always gets me is the coordination scene where, you know, he says, my friend you bow to no one because, you know, it's so nice even though he is a king. He is the kind of pretty much all men in Middle Earth at that point, or rather of Gondor.
01:09:28
Speaker
he's fulfilled this prophecy of being this king, and yet he's just so goddamn humble. It's like, oh, Vigo, you lovable scamp. He bows down to these four hobbits that by all means if it was any other king it would be the opposite way about, and it's the fact that they are so grateful for these literal small people who have stood up against the face of, or rather the eye of literal evil. It gets me every time, but again I was quite emotional as well with
01:09:56
Speaker
Frodo leaving, giving the book over to Sam, and of course Sam's starting his family. And everybody has a happy ending, except for Boromir, but yeah, let's not talk about that. Most of the fellowship have this very nice, complete ending because it's something that I feel as if nowadays people would complain about. You know, there would be one person saying, oh, it's too perfect, or oh, it's this or that. But for this kind of film, I feel as if
01:10:22
Speaker
it ends perfectly with the door just closing on the tail. But then we get the spin-off show with Gimli and Legolas is like buddy cops. Don't tempt them. They will do it. You know they'll do it.
01:10:34
Speaker
don't tempt me. Yeah, unfortunately we have mustered all of the goodwill and quite frankly all of the praise we can give to this iconic series because if you haven't seen that in yet somehow you are still listening to this. Out of curiosity or whatever, honestly I would wholeheartedly recommend this
Legacy and Conclusion
01:10:54
Speaker
series. I feel as if this is probably one of the most perfect
01:10:59
Speaker
trilogies of all time, and it deserves to be praised. It deserves to be held up not as a mindless fantasy action film, even though part of it is. It deserves to be seen as the iconic piece of pop culture that it is.
01:11:14
Speaker
This film franchise is probably the best film trilogy ever made. I hope that when it is eventually remade, and you know it will be, there is a fair bit of time before that and hopefully I never get to see it because I can't believe that they could improve upon this franchise. It's like Harry Potter, do what you want with it. War to the Rings, don't touch our precious. On that note, Andrew, thank you so much for joining me in this fellowship, as it were.
01:11:41
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me, and I'm looking forward to revisiting The Hobbit in the next episode. Yeah, next week is going to be an interesting one. While we were very positive and gushing over this film, not that we're going to be cruel to The Hobbit, but next week we are going to be discussing how The Hobbit
01:12:01
Speaker
probably didn't live up to the hype as well as its predecessor, but indeed that is a story for another day. But if you would like to hear more from ourselves or future episodes of Lord of the Rings month, then you can catch us on our website, Chatsunami.com, as well as all good podcast apps. Just look for the red panda under the name Chatsunami and we'll see you there.
01:12:23
Speaker
If you would like to hear our episodes one week ahead of time, then please feel free to subscribe to our Patreon. Patreon subscribers can, as I said, get early access to our episodes and also exclusive content. And where can they find that? Patreon slash Chatsunami. Patreon.com slash Chatsunami.
01:12:45
Speaker
As you were saying, you can catch that on patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. I would also like to give a huge shout out to our Pandalurian Patrons, Robotic Battle Toaster and Sonya. Thank you so so much for supporting the show. But until then, and before we have another ending, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stick with us too.