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No more blank cheques for police
66 Plays4 years ago
We are joined by Oumar Salifou of the Is This For Real? podcast to talk about Edmonton Police's militarized hardware show and tell, the media's poor coverage of police and the upcoming Police Act review.
If you like this podcast and you want to support it go to https://www.theprogressreport.ca/patrons and become a monthly patron!
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Transcript
Introduction to The Progress Report
00:00:12
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host, Enkin Kinney, and we are recording today here in Amiskwachuwa, Skigan, otherwise known as Edmonton, Alberta.
Introducing Omar Salafu and Podcast Comparison
00:00:21
Speaker
Joining us today is Omar Salafu. He's one of the people behind Is This For Real, a tremendous podcast that you should really listen to if you haven't already.
00:00:30
Speaker
Think of it like Crackdown, that great podcast by Garth Mullins, but it's on policing and living as a black person in Edmonton. It has great interviews, thoughtful production. It's just a really good show, really good journalism.
Edmonton Police Militarization Discussion
00:00:43
Speaker
We had Omar in the studio to talk about the Edmonton Police Service's very strange militarized hardware show and tell that they just had. We also talk about, you know,
00:00:53
Speaker
generally just how poorly the media covers the police here in Edmonton and Alberta, as well as the UCP and Casey Madu's upcoming review of the Police Act. But before we get to that, I just want to thank all of the 250 or so donors that we do have. We could not do this show, we could not do the reporting that we do on theprogressreport.ca,
00:01:13
Speaker
without your financial support. Independent, effective media is hard work. It's hard to do. And our patrons are key to allowing us to continue to show up to work every day and put out this podcast and put out the stories that we do put up on theprogressreport.ca. So if you'd like to support us and you want to see and hear more work like this, please go to theprogressreport.ca slash patrons and put in your credit card and become a monthly donor, you know, 5, 10, $15 a month, whatever you can spare. It really does help us.
00:01:44
Speaker
And with that out of the way, let's get to Omar.
Unsettling Police Hardware Event Experience
00:01:47
Speaker
We're here to chat. Me, Deccan Kinney, Omar Salafu of Is This For Real? It's, you know, I just went and to an event that really kind of messed me up, actually. As I was driving to this event, I was listening also to Danielle Smith of Calgary Talk Radio fame talk about the evils of rising communism. So I got, not only did I go into this event, which was just wall to wall military police hardware,
00:02:15
Speaker
But also, um, Daniel Smith talking about rising communism, which, which really was not the proper set and setting to go to this event. But I, I, I have to respond to that, or at least say that, that, that, that quote is, what do you wish was the context? She was just saying communists are winning now.
Military-Style Police Hardware Debate
00:02:31
Speaker
Does there more communism in the world? They haven't murdered enough communists. She was interviewing some, uh, like, um, conservative hack, former Herald opinion editor journalist about the rise of communism. And, uh,
00:02:43
Speaker
And, I mean, the example she kept coming back to was, like, the liberals are trial ballooning universal basic income right now, and UBI is communism, according to her. So it's like, yeah, it was painful to listen to. And then I went to this extremely bizarre event the other day, which was, essentially, they called it a show and tell. Edmonton Police called it a show and tell of their specialized equipment. What it essentially was, was a way to show off all of their
00:03:10
Speaker
uh new military hardware military style hardware that they have recently purchased and it was um it was wild i mean the star of the show is obviously i mean the tank quote unquote tank the new armored vehicle uh called the black wolf ominously uh this is a 500 000 dollar armored vehicle uh it can stop the armor on this thing can stop 50 caliber bullets so that's cool and i assume that happens a lot here in emilton that 50 caliber bullets are flying
00:03:42
Speaker
And that was on display and they kind of talked about that. And then they also had their new mobile command center on display, another $370,000 purchase, which I wasn't super interested to be honest. It's just essentially a big truck trailer.
00:03:58
Speaker
Um, they also showed off
Questioning Police Militarization Post-Protests
00:04:00
Speaker
their drone fleet. Uh, I didn't know that the city of Edmonton had 10 drones, uh, with one more on the way. Um, the biggest of these drones is about the size of like a toaster oven. So, so, so what, what does the intended purpose when you're there, what do they say all this, you know, advanced military technology is, is needed for, what do they say this is, you know, useful for it's to keep the officer safe.
00:04:24
Speaker
I mean that's it's it's always comes back to the officer safety and like maintaining their distance is kind of how they frame it as well like that's why they have the armored vehicle the drones are a lot of the a lot of the use cases of the drones that they talked about were essentially like it essentially replacing the like bomb robot like the little robot on wheels that they use so they can just send a robot in or send a drone in instead of a robot to go check something out um
00:04:47
Speaker
I mean the like sniper rifles and the the assault rifles and or carbines
Funding Transparency and Political Neglect
00:04:52
Speaker
and the like crowd control like less lethal weapons they were just showing them off like I don't understand I mean that was the other thing is that they weren't just showing off their new tank they were showing off essentially everything it's it's unfortunate that I think violence at that level is glorified in a sense and I feel like people do kind of embrace
00:05:14
Speaker
these weapons as good things, you know, and it's really sad because, you know, guns, tanks, all these things, the only purpose that they have is to kill human beings. That's it. These things are human killing machines.
00:05:30
Speaker
That's what they are. So why are we celebrating the police buying more human killing machines? I don't understand where the logic lies in there, but someone has to explain it to me. It was a wild precedent to attend because not only are they are they showing all these things off proudly, which again kind of weird to me, but but also to do it like now in like September 2020, like a few months after the murder of George Floyd,
00:05:55
Speaker
After 15,000 people in the streets in Edmonton that demanding change when it came to policing, this was essentially a big middle finger to just like, fuck you, nothing will change. Nothing is going to change. We are still the police. We are still going to do whatever it is we want to do with the money that we get from you, right? Like,
00:06:10
Speaker
One thing that we go over in our story, right, is exactly how the money works on this. And there is, no one knew about this, no one knew about this new armored vehicle, right? Like there are quotes from Don Ivison blasting it, right? Calling it tone deaf. Like the mayor of Edmonton did not know that his own police force was buying a half a million dollar armored vehicle. That's, I think that is a failure in some kind of governance. I don't understand how you can,
00:06:40
Speaker
claim to be for good governance and for, you know, active participation in democracy, yet we have so much smoke and mirrors. Nobody knows what's going on. Even the mayor doesn't know what's going on. So how can we trust our officials to do a good job for us if they don't even know that the police are buying, you know, half a million dollar tanks and, you know, assault rifles and
00:07:05
Speaker
all of this is happening in the wake of people finally realizing that, you know, the police kill people every day, every week, and they get away with it. Nothing happens to them. Disproportionately, you know, black and brown faces as well, right? Like, I mean, the quote that we pull out in our story is from Councillor Scott McKean, who was a police commissioner at the time when the armored vehicle was purchased. And he straight up told the CBC that he did not remember the discussion about the armored vehicle when it was originally proposed.
00:07:34
Speaker
And then he did not remember when it was approved. Okay, so I'm going to lay it out for everyone.
Public Pushback and Societal Awareness Shift
00:07:40
Speaker
So basically, I think this is just a case of the police being a complete low priority for politicians. I think politicians have given the police a blank check and have said do whatever you want and we'll give you money for it.
00:07:56
Speaker
And now, for the first time in a long, long time, not to say that people haven't been challenging and fighting against the police for hundreds of years, but she is a perfect example of someone who's been fighting against the police for a very, very long time. But I think now that people are waking up and realizing what's going on, I think it's a case of just
00:08:19
Speaker
I don't know. It's weird. People don't know how to handle this because there's been so much just unaccountable police officers for years and years and years and years and years. The entire institution has not faced significant pushback from civil society. It has not faced significant pushback from city council or its police commission. And it sure as shit hasn't faced significant pushback from the media. No, no, no, no, no.
00:08:48
Speaker
So, uh, when you have, you know, 15,000 in the people and 15,000 people in the streets demanding change, when there's, you know, people demanding to defund or abolish the police in city council chambers, like making the case, uh, I don't think they know how to respond. And I think that one of the ways they have chosen to respond is by essentially saying, yeah, we bought a tank and, uh, here's all our other military style, like toys that we also have, like.
00:09:13
Speaker
You know what I mean? It is a curious decision, though I do kind of understand it when you kind of see how the police approach the world, right?
Police Oppression and Systemic Problems
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's unfortunate. And I think it's important to state that, you know, this is all it was all built this way. And it's all very intentional. The police are intentionally here to make, you know, black people and indigenous people's lives miserable and homeless people are houseless people's lives miserable. That's their purpose. And they're there to protect, you know, rich people and the elite. That's their purpose. So.
00:09:51
Speaker
I think when you approach trying to solve this problem, I think you have to look at what the actual problem is and then look for a solution. Because if the police are purpose built to destroy communities and have a blank check to do so, because if the police kills you,
00:10:10
Speaker
They don't face any consequences. Your life is collateral for their existence. There's so many stories of people getting caught in the crossfire of police misconduct. And just no consequences. Just shoulder shrug. Shoulder shrug. 30 hours of docked pay. Yeah. If the police are racist, if the police in Edmonton
00:10:35
Speaker
I say if as if this didn't happen. It did. But if they put up a poster with, you know, a racist caricature of a black person, you know, in their locker room, you know, very proudly on their lockers, you know, we are proud racists, you know, who knows who works in the canine unit, you know, who knows who are the people who are around this. I can't even imagine what I would feel like if I walked into my workplace and one of my coworkers had a poster on his locker
00:11:04
Speaker
with a racist depiction of me in some kind of tribal dress.
00:11:10
Speaker
with
Drones and Surveillance Concerns
00:11:11
Speaker
a dog you know being told to attack me you know it's a threat it's insulting like there's so many layers to this but you know what's the consequence what do they say like uh community service or 20 hours of you know reconciliation or something like that i think it's still being looked at that particular case but yeah i mean the the consequences are almost always you know not even worth discussing i mean you mentioned unhoused folks a little while back i think it's worth coming back to that because there was a
00:11:38
Speaker
an anecdote that the drone cop, like the officer who was responsible for managing the drones, there's an anecdote that the drone cop dropped in the middle of this presentation about how they have drones that they can mount loudspeakers and spotlights to.
00:11:53
Speaker
And he talked about how in another jurisdiction that use these same drones, they use that drone with them out, with the loudspeaker and the spotlight on it to find a hard to get to homeless encampment and to use it to like yell or, you know, use the loudspeaker to tell them to get out. When I heard that, I like, I couldn't believe it. I asked a couple of clarifying questions like, did this happen here? This happened noises. No, it's having another jurisdiction. I was like.
00:12:16
Speaker
Okay, like why why would you think that would be a good example of of a thing to tell us about when it comes to the like? I think that's because they want to do that in the River Valley in
Critique of Police Budgeting and Accountability
00:12:26
Speaker
Edmonton. Oh, they definitely brought this book This is all part of their big plan. And the saddest part is that like
00:12:32
Speaker
this is the solution like these people have nowhere to live so they go to the place that is seemingly the safest you know this forest in the middle of our city and now the police because obviously they need something to do they're just yeah we need to get these people out of here we need to you know round them up yell at them using a drone in the sky
00:12:55
Speaker
That's some like just that's some dystopic science fiction shit like Imagine like you're a homeless person you're going through some tough times You're sleeping rough in the River Valley and you wake up and it's 6 a.m. In the morning and there's a drone hovering over top of you beaming a light onto you telling you to disperse and and you know what the best part about all of this is
00:13:19
Speaker
We paid for it, you know? We paid for it, you know? If you own a house, if you pay any taxes in this city, even in this province, you have fully funded the Sky Drone to harass this homeless person, basically, this houseless person. And the police are having a parade to show off the nice shiny toys that you paid for. This society is amazing. This is a great place to live.
00:13:48
Speaker
And the funding of all this, we get this into this into our article, but like the funding of this, there's just, there's simply no accountability. Like I can think of no other municipal department where, uh, in this case, the city, uh, the Edmonton police force asked for $6.8 million over a four year period for specialized police equipment. And they don't say what that specialized police equipment is or what it will do. They just say, give us $6.8 million for specialized police equipment. And then we saw what they bought, you know, in their event, in the event they held the other day.
00:14:18
Speaker
But there's literally like nothing in the capital profile asks that says what they'll be buying. This is the saddest part is that this is all always spun by the police as you know, if you're against military spending, then you're against police officer safety.
00:14:34
Speaker
But, you know, what they don't realize is that I want all police officers to be safe and sound at home, you know, not on the streets surveilling people. If you want to be safe, don't surveil people on the streets like you do and find ways to, you know, yeah, like round up homeless people are, you know, card people on the street.
00:14:56
Speaker
Yeah, like it doesn't make any sense. This logic that the police have to do these things to us doesn't make any sense. If they stayed at home or they decided to, you know, do something different. Play solitaire all day. Yeah. That would be fine.
00:15:11
Speaker
You know, I don't think you'd be in any danger if you stayed in the police house quarter. And the other argument that they'll say is, well, then crime will be rampant. You know, everyone will be a criminal and, you know, it's going to be Armageddon. But it's just like you have that little faith in your community that you think if we don't have 24 seven police officers, then we're all going to kill each other. That's a really sad thing to say about ourselves. Like it's really wild.
00:15:36
Speaker
And police don't prevent crime. Police investigate crime, often quite poorly, especially if it involves a black or a brown person or a poor person, right? It doesn't make any sense. Just look at the numbers.
00:15:47
Speaker
Crime goes down, but police budgets go up. How does that make any sense? And the police will say that crime is actually going up. But it all becomes a game of semantics. It becomes a numbers game where it's like, oh, or whose numbers are we using? Are you using your definition or my definition? And that's the problem. We can't even move past whose definition is right. We have to kind of get bogged down in that. And the real issue isn't being addressed.
00:16:14
Speaker
At the municipal government level, which again, we have to remember that the Edmonton Police Service is funded primarily by municipal taxes and is a creature of the city of Edmonton. I can think of no other city department that would just get $6.8 million given to it, and then they would just never have to account for what they spent that money on.
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's another very, very good point. Imagine how mad people would be if the government just said, if the city of Edmonton government, Don Iveson said, I'm going to give $6 million to teachers in Edmonton and we're not going to tell you how they're going to use that money. It's just theirs.
Challenging Police Necessity and Community Regulation
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean that's literally the only other equivalent there is like spy shit like national defense like yeah secret like there's there's the the only equivalent of like of a group that gets public funding that like literally never has to tell you what they're doing with their money is like that like high-level the top secret bullshit and like sorry like the Edmonton police are not doing that work and
00:17:11
Speaker
And it is absolutely wild. The Edmonton Police Service does receive $373 million from the City of Edmonton. It's the single largest line item in their budget. I discount the Edmonton City Council kind of combines a couple of factors to have one that's slightly larger than that, but it's bullshit.
00:17:30
Speaker
And it is, it is wild, especially when you look at what the community has been calling for, right? Like Black Lives Matter Edmonton has their defund the police action plan and it very clearly called for like more public and low income housing, like, you know, free transit, things like better and more safe consumption sites, which are under attack right now by this provincial government, right? On top of defunding the police, like,
00:17:57
Speaker
It's very clear that I think that we've come across a very strong rhetorical thing that like even regular normie white people are starting to understand like, oh yeah, like we just spend huge amounts of money on policing and that like the police don't actually stop crime. Who does it help, you know? If you support the police, ask yourself, when was the last time you called the police?
00:18:21
Speaker
Yeah, my car got stolen. But yeah, so your car got stolen and you would call the police. Of course, I think that's I think it's a paperwork. I think I think that's the majority of times like I almost called the police almost.
Recognition Struggles as Legitimate Media
00:18:34
Speaker
I didn't do it when my car got broken into and I was like, oh, my stuff is missing. But it was like, you know, a pair of headphones and like, you know, my little book bag, whatever. So I didn't really think it was something that I cared enough about to get the cops involved.
00:18:48
Speaker
But I think the narrative that spun is that, you know, people need the police because we're all dealing with violent crisis all the time. And, you know, who will save us from violent crisis? It is the police. But how many people do you know that have been in violent crisis?
00:19:06
Speaker
And even the ones who have been in those situations, when the police showed up, did they actually solve the problem or did they make it worse? Because I know a lot of stories about violent crisis, especially in the mental health area where people are going through, you know, panic attacks, they're going through, you know, manic episodes. They're really in distress because of their mental health condition. And the police show up and they make the situation infinitely worse because they add a lot of aggression.
00:19:36
Speaker
and they escalate things and there's so many situations where this happens. Don't take my word for it. Look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. There's case after case of this happening. Yeah, and it was even a lucky thing that I even got to go to this specialized police equipment show and tell because I didn't end up getting the
00:20:02
Speaker
the invite. I have, I don't know if people have been paying attention to our Twitter account, but the progress report has been going through a bit of a issue with the Edmonton Police Service over the course of the summer. They didn't consider us media. I'm putting that in quote unquote, I'm putting that in scare quotes here in the studio, like
00:20:21
Speaker
We were, in the course of doing our work and writing stories about the Edmonton Police Service, we were sending in questions to the police. We were dealing with the EPS Media Relations Unit. And we had gotten, I think, one reply to a question for the story that we did, actually, on bad SROs. And a bunch of the other times, it just never got back to us. And then, that's fine, whatever. I mean, I'm not writing a story where I need the police to comment in order to write the story. Like, God forbid I ever do that kind of journalism.
00:20:48
Speaker
but you just write, you know, Edmonton police refused to comment or whatever.
00:20:53
Speaker
But then I sent in a request for a couple of very hum-drum things. I think I wanted to know the locations of the closed-circuit television cameras and a CCTV pilot that the Edmonton police had announced, and I wanted to know the status of a hate crime investigation. And I got an email back from someone with the media relations unit saying, we don't consider you a media relations. We don't consider you media. Get fucked, essentially. Any further correspondence between you and us can go through the FOIP unit.
00:21:20
Speaker
And I was like, hold on, wait a second. You're shaking your head. For all the people who can't see. Yeah, I'm shaking my head. And so, okay, we ended up escalating this to the point where we were dealing with the lawyer for the Edmonton Police Service. And he was like, send in an application, a submission to be considered a media organization. And we did it like, we ended up, actually ended up running it by Avnish before we submitted it.
00:21:49
Speaker
And, uh, we ended up meeting with the chief and there's like, what the hell, what's going on here? And eventually it got taken care of. We are considered media. Now we're on their like email list. They will respond to requests as much as they respond to anyone's requests. I don't know how much luck you've had a meeting. They don't like talking to anyone. Yeah, exactly. Right. Anyone ever. Mm-hmm.
00:22:10
Speaker
Especially the work that like you and I do which is not your usual kind of stenographic journal Yeah, we're not we're not just gonna take the word for it. We're gonna ask some questions and I don't think they like answering questions
00:22:22
Speaker
But we, so we did end up, uh, funnily enough, it was the folks at Alberta advantage who I think sent us, I can't remember someone sent us a DM telling us about this event. And I was like, Oh yeah, I would like to go to that event. Weird. I didn't get the email and I followed up with the media relations unit. Uh, and they're like, Oh, damn, I, I swore I said to the it people that you should, you should be on the email list. I was like, I don't.
00:22:44
Speaker
Sure, whatever, whatever you say. I just let you know that I'm going to be there, and if you could please get me on the email list in the future, I would really appreciate it.
Perception of Police Actions and Militarization
00:22:51
Speaker
Dear listeners, I am getting those emails from the Edmonton Police Service now. Fine, I mean, as I expect every media organization gets, you just get your kind of daily churn of Edmonton Police sending out stuff.
00:23:07
Speaker
And uh but yeah it was I ended up going to this event and it was again still absolutely wild and bizarre that it happened in the first place that they think that like people aren't going to react to this huge like parading of military hardware. I think that's just how bad things are here it's just that like really that is the culture of of this province
00:23:29
Speaker
And I think it's unfortunate because I think a lot of people would disagree with me and say, you know, no, we're actually very tolerant. No, we actually, you know, really accept everyone and we're nonviolent and all these things. But I think that things like that can't happen if people think it's OK. And I think people really think that's OK. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.
Mission of 'Is This For Real' Podcast
00:23:50
Speaker
other than us obviously but we need there's a lot of people who do and i think those people need to speak up if they do you know if you really think there's a problem with these things let people know that because i think if more of us do that then maybe these things will stop
00:24:05
Speaker
Well, I think both you and like our organizations have audiences, they're small, they're growing. But I think, I mean, I want to know more about what is this for real, the project that you're working for? Like what is it doing? What are the like, what's the ultimate goal here? Like just maybe just describe the project so people can understand it. I mean, I think it's really good. You're three episodes in, four episodes in.
00:24:27
Speaker
Yeah, we're like four or five episodes in yeah, it's a very structured thing, right? Like you want to have seasons you want to do like these long form I like episodes like deep rich audio like describe what it is for us
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's a project that came together after George Floyd was murdered and we just basically wanted to make sure that, you know, Black Lives Matter wasn't just, you know, the small kind of couple months that it basically feels like it has been and I think Bashir really knew that this would happen so he really pushed for
00:25:00
Speaker
this project and Avneesh really did and Nicholas came on board to help us and you know now Hanan is a co-host with me so I think you know we also have a board now as well. Rekash is the chair of our board like I think it's something that we're all really you know I think proud of doing just trying to help the community
00:25:26
Speaker
trying to make sure people understand what's going on I think that's that's kind of what we're doing you know so we do these podcasts about you know policing and policing has connections to schools it has connections to government it has connections to
00:25:44
Speaker
a lot of facets of our life, but I think also giving black people a chance to just have their voices heard in a meaningful way, which is hard to do in mainstream media because they really enjoy putting black people in the box
00:26:01
Speaker
or just having one specific kind of area that you can kind of be successful in. And I think we really want to just have a platform that's open for people to express themselves. Yeah. It's a really amazing project. I'm really grateful that it exists and that you were able to find support for it.
00:26:23
Speaker
And, you know, I've really liked the stuff that's come out so far. Like the SRO was really, the SRO episode was really good. And I feel like, uh, when you saw, like, I think we can take a little bit of credit for the city or the Edmonton public school board, just not even going to a vote when it came, comes to canceling their SRO program or whatever, temporarily suspending it while it was under review, like your episode on the like police officer who may or may not have had a non-consensual sexual relationship with a student.
00:26:51
Speaker
And then our work documenting the several different officers who were involved in police misconduct and brutality cases and still continue to be SROs.
Media's Role in Challenging Status Quo
00:27:01
Speaker
I think they just wanted to get out ahead of it and canceled the school resource officer program before even they had the trustees voting on it. You know what I mean?
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely. I think they saw the writing on the wall. Yeah, and I think this is what we're trying to do. Not necessarily more of what we did, but making change in a meaningful way and making sure that these things change. I think that's what we're all looking for, really.
00:27:27
Speaker
Yeah, like the media, I'm not interested in being the Globe and Mail. I'm not interested in being CBC even. I mean, I have very clear political goals that I would like to achieve both personally and professionally. And I hope that's very clear in the content that we produce and the things we choose to write about and things that we choose to focus on.
00:27:48
Speaker
And the whole ironically detached view from nowhere, professionally objective journalism, only existed because capitalism briefly made newspapers like an incredibly profitable enterprise, right? And that's not the case anymore.
00:28:03
Speaker
And I think that's something I definitely had a hard time coming around to because I think I was definitely a little bit caught up in the kind of, you know, really, yeah, objective top down. I'm just kind of a sonographer view of doing journalism. But I think now I realize that, yeah, that
00:28:23
Speaker
That only was created to serve the purpose of making sure that media are the only legitimate source or legitimate voice. By creating ideas like that, you can discredit anyone else. It serves the rich and powerful. Exactly. Media has always been an outlet for the rich and the powerful to just tell the world what they should think.
00:28:50
Speaker
That's basically what it is. Here are the opinions that are acceptable. Here are the opinions that are unacceptable. Here's what you need to know about. Exactly. Yeah. And we decide that. And if you question our authority in deciding that, you don't know what you're talking about. We know what we're talking about. You don't know what you're talking about. And if you don't have the authority or the stamp of approval, then
00:29:14
Speaker
You're kind of hooped. Your opinion doesn't really matter. So I think that's why these ideas exist. It's to protect capitalism. It's to protect all these industries. Yeah, to protect white supremacy. And it took me a long time to get to the point where I think I just decided that
00:29:34
Speaker
It's easier to just say what these things are and make it clear that you don't want to be what other media are. With all that being said though, we are still professional journalists, right? Yeah.
00:29:51
Speaker
We are still, uh, you know, uh, we still have values that we hold. We're still doing our very best to accurately and truthfully tell stories. Um, you know what I mean? I think people get caught up and it's like, Oh, you're not objective. It's like, no one's fucking object. No one is. But, but, but, but are you making, are you making an honest effort to tell the truth? Are you making an honest effort to talk to people and to get both sides of the story? Are you giving them an opportunity to comment? Are you, are you following the generally accepted standards and values and ethics of journalism, which both of us are
Acknowledgment Challenges for Non-Traditional Media
00:30:20
Speaker
right. And.
00:30:21
Speaker
And that's why it's been hilarious for us personally to have to go through the issue that we went with with the government of Alberta when they didn't consider us a media organization. The issue we've gone through with the Edmonton Police Service who didn't consider us a media organization. Like I assume we're gonna have to do this a half a dozen more times until people finally get it through.
00:30:38
Speaker
Um, your head, their head that like you don't get to decide as a powerful institution who is media and who isn't like, we're going to write our story anyway. Um, but like you, you can decide to like restrict our rights or not is really up to you. You know what I mean?
00:30:54
Speaker
And I think that I really admire the work that you do and other, I guess, progressive media organizations do. I appreciate it because not only is it challenging the status quo, but yeah, it sets a new precedent, which is really good. Yeah, definitely.
00:31:19
Speaker
And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it is, it is hard. It is also, one thing I also want to tell people is that it is hard fucking work. You know, you're, you're, you're, there are no like, uh, there's no back, there's no like net to catch you. There's no like institutional backdrop, um, that you can go to.
00:31:37
Speaker
you are essentially like blazing a trail, you're starting a new organization, you're starting from scratch, and there's very little precedent to go off of when it comes to like successful, independent, say a black run, you know, media organizations that cover policing in a region, or in my case like an explicitly like left-wing independent media project,
00:31:59
Speaker
There just isn't a lot of those things that like continue to exist and have success over many years. In Progress Alberta, I mean, it's five years in January now. We haven't always been as focused as on media production investigative journalism as we are now, but I mean, that's where we're headed, right?
00:32:18
Speaker
And I think it's important to stick around, you know? And even if things change, that these things just kind of keep going because that's how institutions become more powerful, is they have staying power. And I think that the reason why a lot of these places are respected is because they have been around for a long time.
00:32:39
Speaker
So if these projects can stick around for just as long, I think people will start to value them a little bit more and treat them with the respect that I think the work deserves. Because like you said, we're really working hard to make sure that people get the full picture of what's going on in their community.
00:33:03
Speaker
We're trying to say folks is support local independent media, especially if it's me or Omar No, but yeah Duncan is right Yeah, I mean you'll get a chance to throw to your patreon at the end but there's one other thing that I that is in the news that I don't think has actually gotten a lot of coverage yet nor has the
Leadership and Reform Skepticism
00:33:28
Speaker
Has anyone really kind of cottoned on to the possibilities of how bad or good it could get? But the provincial government is undergoing a police act review. The police act is finally being reviewed after God knows how long of never being changed. And the lucky person, the person that we are lucky enough to have leading this effort is the newly appointed Justice Minister Casey Medew.
00:33:53
Speaker
And Casey Madew has made some statements about defunding the police about Black Lives Matter that one would characterize as inaccurate, unhinged. I don't know, how would you describe, what's your vibe as Casey Madew as Justice Minister? Yeah, I really have to be careful here because I really don't want to say anything that's going to get me in trouble.
00:34:21
Speaker
But at the same time, I want to make it clear that I really don't support Casey McDew and I think that his comments are very hurtful and very disrespectful to the Black community and to people who have suffered from police misconduct.
00:34:41
Speaker
And I don't think he has any right to make comments like that. You know, he might think he does because he's the newly appointed justice minister. But I think he should really reflect on the history of policing in Edmonton, not what the police chief has told him or what police administrators tell him. But what actually happened, you know, in this city? Because the truth is out there. It's not like things are just kind of not happening.
00:35:11
Speaker
Like, here's a little quote from K.C. Madew. This is to global media September 3rd. The idea that we should take away money from our law enforcement at a time when we actually need them to be strengthened, while at the same time dealing with all of those other issues is ridiculous, he said. That is not to say that we should not fund those services, he explained, citing the creation of the mental health and addictions ministry, blah blah blah.
00:35:33
Speaker
Anyways, he is very unequivocally come out and said that defunding the police is bad. Anyone who does it is bad. I mean, we should take a very brief second to point out that as, as the municipal affairs minister, he did defund the police by like $5 million or something like through some provincial granting program.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yep. I think, I think, uh, hypocrisy charges never really get you anywhere with conservatives because they have no shame and they don't care. But it is just worth briefly pointing out that Casey Medoo, uh, has defunded the police a little bit already in his work as a government minister. But he was also just like off it when he came when, when there was the rally with 15,000 people in Edmonton and he was talking about how the, it was, he got, uh, I think booted from the speaker's list or something.
00:36:17
Speaker
and he was just like kept going at the NDP like it was the NDP's decision to boot him from the like speakers list he called it like an NDP rally like he was really uh really i don't know i don't know how to describe it i feel like it's just
00:36:32
Speaker
maybe he feels entitled to speak at an event that is honoring, you know, black people. But I think you have to ask yourself, you know, why, you know, why he feels entitled.
00:36:48
Speaker
Or if he feels entitled, because if he does, then I don't understand how his comments make sense, you know? If you want to speak at a rally for Black Lives Matter, I don't know if you can also say that the police should be strengthened and defunding is a stupid idea.
00:37:08
Speaker
So I know you said you wanted to be careful, but I'm going to say something that might get you a little mad. This is also from the global article. Madu questions how defunding the police will help with what he calls an upsurge in crime. I'm rolling my eyes, the crime has gone down. Quote, many of these communities have high rates of gang activities, he said, mentioning that he has met with leaders from Edmonton's Somali community.
00:37:29
Speaker
uh yeah it's that that really can you just say that again just the last this is the second part i want to hear the second part many of these communities have high rates of gang activities he said mentioning that he has met with leaders from edmonton's somali community
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know how these people take themselves seriously, you know? You met with people from the Somali community and all you have to say about them is that they have a high rate of gang activity. It's just so sad because it's like, what do you expect? What do you expect is going to happen?
00:38:00
Speaker
You characterize the Somali community as gang-ridden, and then you expect anyone to respect Somali people. You're in the media denigrating black people, and at the same time, you want us to invite you to speak at things. It doesn't make any sense. And again, I'm going to be very careful of what I say, but I just think that it's very disrespectful. It's very hurtful. If you're a Somali kid and you hear the justice minister say that,
00:38:28
Speaker
What are you thinking in your head? But he just thinks that they don't read these news articles. He can talk carelessly like that because he just assumes that all of these Somali kids are just gang members who can't read or some dumb thing like that. It's just very insulting and very patronizing.
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the fact that this is the person that is going to be leading the police act review is both wild that he was chosen to do this. I mean, he failed upwards. I don't think anyone would look at Madu's time in the municipal affairs ministry as a success.
00:39:02
Speaker
But now he's now he's in an even more important high-profile role And he is going to be leading this this police act review which if if I mean not that the NDP necessarily would have done a whole lot on this better because they they started a consultation process and like never got anywhere with it and
00:39:20
Speaker
But like if we were to change the police act there's lots of things even like kind of Social Democrats liberals like just like bog-standard centrists could agree on is like a good thing like like for instance police should not be Investigating themselves, you know what I mean?
Police Accountability and Oversight Critique
00:39:35
Speaker
Like even even the police unions are like, yeah, it's a bad luck when You know, they're investigating interesting, you know, it's really interesting. I don't know when you're gonna release this episode but
00:39:49
Speaker
We're going to include something in our next podcast that basically I think goes to show that like police are saying that now, but that wasn't always the narrative. There's really good video in 2015 of the of the head of a cert. I don't know what her official title is,
00:40:08
Speaker
But she's executive director, executive director of a certain 2015. There was a couple of shootings, I think, or there was a serious incident involving a police officer. And people were complaining about the fact that a cert is compromised because it is full of police officers.
00:40:25
Speaker
And essentially, this is like a two minute video on YouTube of the, you know, Calgary Herald basically letting her have space to just say that, you know, she fully supports Acer and that Acer is completely objective and that they completely follow any professional standards to not be biased, you know, when police investigate police. But now everyone is saying that, you know, it's a problem that police are investigating police.
00:40:51
Speaker
So it's strange, it's just like I think a lot of this stuff when you look at what the actual narrative has been for the past, you know, couple of years before George Floyd and the whole world realized that like racism is bad, I think there's been, you know, a systematic defense of any police action, good or bad.
00:41:14
Speaker
but especially bad. I mean, ASERT is weird because it's ostensibly civilian-led, right? But all the people doing the investigations tend to be seconded cops, right? I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm willing to go and get a one-year diploma and join ASERT and investigate bad cops.
00:41:29
Speaker
I will do that work. But even like the case, even just a more recent case, like the Jean-Claude Ricondo case, which you've covered on the pod and we've written about on our website, this is a case where a man who was just helping his wife who had been in a car accident essentially got assaulted by the cops.
00:41:48
Speaker
and he filed a complaint and the complaint was other Edmonton cops looking into it and saying nah nothing to see here and then the video of the incident gets released like over the course of the summer and it's brutal it's it's very George Floyd-esque it's like it's a guy it's a cop like putting his knee on the full force on the head and neck of a black man and and and it's like oh yeah the chief signed off on this and he looked at it and there was no problem
00:42:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's embarrassing. When you start looking into these cases, it's embarrassing how sloppy their defenses because their actions are usually indefensible. So what they have to do is cobble together some kind of story to make the victim look like a perpetrator and then just basically go off on that. I know. And in John Cloud's case, they said he smelled of alcohol. They said that he assaulted them. But like he all of his charges were dropped. He was released.
00:42:42
Speaker
It just doesn't make any sense for anyone who's actually looking at it critically and I think that's the problem No one has looked at it critically. Everyone just gives the police a pass. Everyone's like no the officer was completely right You know if you didn't do anything wrong. I mean another opportunity when I when I look to the NDP here I mean this police act review You know this whole defund the police narrative there are opportunities for you here
Zero Tolerance for Police Domestic Violence
00:43:05
Speaker
in
00:43:05
Speaker
And one where I would argue it's very easy to step in and do some good on this police act review is to simply have a zero tolerance policy for domestic violence by cops.
00:43:16
Speaker
If you are a cop who has any type of domestic violence incident, and it's proven to be true, you're fucking out. You don't get to be a cop anymore. But this is the problem is that they don't have any zero tolerance policies. Everything seems to be okay. And I think that it's time for the police to start enacting those kind of policies and taking it seriously. Because if you actually take your job seriously and you claim to be doing community policing,
00:43:44
Speaker
How is that, you know, also attached to no consequences when costs do really bad things? Like when you have the exclusive state sanctioned right to use violence as a police officer, and then you are found to have been beaten beating your partner.
00:43:59
Speaker
in a domestic violence, there's just no way you should be able to have a gun on your hip and that you should be able to go out into the world and into society and be able to do similar things to the members of the public.
Proposal to Disarm Police
00:44:08
Speaker
Like it is, it is a huge, huge red flag and it is very easy win to just say, Hey, look, uh, cops, uh, any, any domestic violence ever, sorry. Uh, you're going to have to find another line of work. You can be a security guard, I guess, you know, like no hundred thousand dollars a year and a cop union for you. Nope. Nope. You don't get that.
00:44:27
Speaker
Another thing that I kind of want to put on the table, and maybe this is a future op-ed, I might be giving away my editorial calendar here, but is the idea of disarming the police. And I don't think anyone has really taken this out into the public yet, but I see no reasonable, justifiable reason why cops constantly have a sidearm on their heads. I completely agree. Let's just arm this police. People will think this is radical. This is a problem. We've gone so far.
00:44:57
Speaker
up the ladder of you know militarized violence being normalized so now when you say things like this people think you're you're you're wild but it's not wild there's a whole country that has police without guns you know what it's called
00:45:12
Speaker
The UK, it's Britain. My homeland, my ancestors. The people who colonized this land. Funny hats and nightsticks, that's all they get, right? They don't get guns, you know? And the UK has its problems. Of course it does. Of course, what country on this planet doesn't have its problems? But you know what they don't have? Police with guns. And then you know what a great step would be? For us to have police without guns.
00:45:39
Speaker
that would be amazing wouldn't it be amazing i think it'd be pretty amazing all right well you've convinced me i think we're gonna write that op-ed we're gonna get it out into the world people are really gonna think i'm you know you know going off something but i i really don't think it's a crazy thing to say i don't think it's radical at all actually no
00:45:56
Speaker
The fact that we have a class of people who walk around with guns on their hips all the time is still kind of blows my mind. I used to work in a school. I watched the SRO walk around with a pistol next to, you know, six year olds that are eating lunch. I worked there almost every day of the week. Did I see anything close to a threat that required a gun?
00:46:16
Speaker
Of course not. Of course. Because this is the myth. They have to make you believe that you're unsafe in order for them to justify carrying a gun everywhere.
Supporting Independent Media
00:46:26
Speaker
But it is a very safe place.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good place to leave it. Omar, thanks so much for coming in. Thanks for doing this recording with me. What's the best way for people to find and support your work? So yeah, if you want to support my work or any of the work that anyone else on Is This For Real is doing, you can just head to our website. IsThisForReal.ca. It's just how you would spell it normally.
00:46:53
Speaker
Yeah. And then I guess, yeah, you can also follow progress Alberta and you know, you can find us on Patreon too. If you want to give us some money. Yeah. Is this, is this for real is on Patreon. That's the primary way y'all get support kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, basically. Um, so yeah. All right. Omar, thanks for coming in. Yeah. Thanks for having me.