Transcript
Speaker: Worm is a web serial by J .C. McCray, also known as Wildbo. You can read Worm in its original format by visiting parahumans .wordpress .com or donate to Wildbo's Patreon at patreon .com slash wildbo. This story isn't intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass. For a complete list, check the description for all of Worm's trigger warnings.
Speaker: All right, all right. Good morning, Brockton Bay. And we are back for episode two of our Brockton Bay Book Club, reading the second arc of Worm, the web serial.
Speaker: by Wildbo. And I think we're just going to jump in here. I think we've kind of got a flow going, starting to figure things out. So let's get into it. Initial thoughts. What's everyone's sort of snapshot thoughts after reading both arcs? Let's start with our first time readers. So Kat and Taylor, initial thoughts. Like I said about the first arc that we read, the second arc
Speaker: also just jumps into it. I love that about a series. Literally, stuff is happening, Taylor gets down and dirty immediately, and I'm so sad that I have to wait to read Arc3 until after this, so that's where I'm at. I feel like Taylor is starting to come into her confidence, and I'm really excited to continue to see her
Speaker: be tired of, you know, the bullying and really kind of defend herself. And I really enjoyed it. I did not want to stop reading. Um, so definitely excited to see where we go from here, but I definitely knew, I knew she was going to join them. I was like, these people, they're going to be her, her buds. So I'm, I'm excited. All right. Everybody else would be, what are we, what are we thinking? Thoughts on the rereads?
Speaker: There's so much good stuff and I forgot how quickly it moves and happens. Um, just rereading this. I'm always hesitant to suggest worm because I think, man, is it as good as I remember? And is it, you know, something that'll hook you as quickly as I remember. Um, and man, arc two just pounds that point home that like his writing
Speaker: his ability to, you know, have people, especially as somebody who's read it before, like just the way that language is used and the already foreshadowing. I'm like, that is a wild amount of all of this is set up in arc two and holy cow. Does it pay out in boatloads throughout the rest of the series?
Speaker: I forgot we introduced the undersider so soon, like that we were in arc two and Taylor is already there, like with them. She's already interacting with them. She's at their base. This has already happened and we're in arc two. And I don't remember it happening this quickly. And it's, it's kind of.
Speaker: messing a little bit with like how I remember the pacing of this book going and which is good and good thing I would say because it's, it's kind of making me come at it again with a, Oh, I don't remember this. Okay. All right. All right. So that's been, that was, that's been fun. Yeah. And, uh, it honestly, arc two is where I really feel like things start to get exciting where.
Speaker: You are, you know, you get introduced to, um, Taylor and arc one, and that's a great setup, but arc two is where you get introduced to, uh, the undersiders, but also in the interlude, you're introduced to the bigger world of the superheroes around you. And, and one of the things I love about this arc too, is you get to see even tiny characters shine, not in the sense of like, they're great people or you love them, but in the sense of.
Speaker: Yeah, that feels like a very real character. Like Taylor's teacher who tries to be nice and is like, Hey, if there's something happening, let me know. But then turns his back on her later when she really needs him. It's like, he feels like a real person and you kind of hate him. Yeah. No, as a, as a, as an educator, I have a lot of problems with that guy, but you don't want to, you don't want to.
Speaker: tell on people and potentially get bullied more. Hmm. Well, then I guess you like being bullied. And if I see it, I just will ignore it. Like, I'm just going to pretend that it's not happening. And it's oh, yeah. Well, I'm going to give you a sad look, a small shake of my head. I think it was the shake of the head that really got me. Yeah, the shake of the head. Yeah. He's like, look, I will give you this one opportunity for me to do paperwork for you. She says no. And then he's like, all right.
Speaker: That's fine. Never again. Yeah, never again. Listen, that's like five old documents I got it right. I'm not doing that shit. No. Um, but I, I, I even, even just those minor characters, they feel very real and very human in their very clear faults. Um, and yeah, I just, I really enjoyed this arc. It's a fun one.
Speaker: Yeah. Just the detail that goes into her, uh, her like two buddies that she has to do the project with. Well, I don't, I don't think we ever see again. Please. I need a buddy cup drama with Sparky and Greg.
Speaker: But yeah, so much. They just feel so alive. They feel they feel so real. I think everyone's like, yep, I know who that is. I went to high school with that guy. Like, you know, just it's such a good job of flushing those characters out. Absolutely. Should we do a quick summary of the arc? Oh, probably a good idea. Hannah, are you on that? I do. I have it right in front of me.
Speaker: Okay, so arc two insinuation in which Taylor joins the undersiders. We have kind of an awkward warning with Taylor and her hair is kind of burnt, kind of like her reliving the night before. She looks up the undersiders and lung and on the way out
Speaker: uh or I guess in classroom uh Julia gives Taylor a hard time and there's this whole incident and Mr. Gladly's class um with Mr. Gladly as we said earlier offering to help with the bullying but uh Taylor turns him down uh in the corridor Emma
Speaker: um, tells the group of bullies that have surrounded Taylor, um, something that Taylor said to her in regards to her grieving mother. And Taylor runs out of school where she had still public library and, uh, looks up in the, in the little chat rooms as little message from Tattletale. And she agrees to meet the undersiders where they recruit her and she agrees to go with them.
Speaker: Shows up and their lovely little hideout where she gets immediately attacked by bitch and bitches dogs There's a huge throw down with bits which we love and Taylor almost leaves but crew is able to convince her to stay and she calls up her dad telling him that she made some new friends and then they interlude at the end we introduce Victoria and Amy as glory girl and
Speaker: and the two patch up a thug that Victoria has gotten a little into beating and Amy patches her up. Again, patches him up again.
Speaker: Oh man, again, just starting from the beginning, the, the entire classroom scene, uh, both, I love how when, how she's looking up the heroes on the Wiki. Uh, it makes the world feel real where again, uh, this is a high school girl looking up superheroes on the internet, which is exactly what.
Speaker: anybody would do in her situation. And I love that. And there's a whole Wiki and there's message boards and, uh, in the way that tattletale reaches out to her, uh, Lisa, as she's later, uh, as we know her as, um, yeah, I just love that. It adds that sense of realism. And then of course, the emotional drop when she gets bullied in class and out of class, it sucks, but it's very powerful.
Speaker: Yeah. Speaking of like built worlds, the two things I noted down here were like, I love that the fact when her dad and her talking like, Hey, remember Garrett or whatever the guy's name was, you know, he's, he's going to be working a job as a henchman. It's like, Oh, good for him. Although he's working for Uber and lead, which they're going to make him wear a costume. Probably.
Speaker: Oh, uh, speaking of which though, big, big thing that we find out is we do find out how Taylor's mom dies in this arc, how she had died. Um, and it's not necessarily the most crucial plot point, but I think that again, that little point of realism and also the way that she died explains a lot more of her dad's character and his reserved nature, but also kind of that anger and that guilt. Um, you know, I think he, it even mentioned that he, uh, she caught him like,
Speaker: yelling at her mom or something to himself. Um, cause she died while texting while driving, you know? Um, yeah. So just stuff like that. I, it's really cool. Yeah. But oh my gosh, I, one of the things that, of course, cause I do my notes, um, chapter by chapter, just to make sure that I'm capturing thoughts and.
Speaker: before Taylor revealed to us that she had made a promise not to use her powers on these bullies. I think that happens much later on, like two nine, two eight. One of the things that I was wondering is with Emma being so harsh, and then when she absolutely brings up the trauma, like just to get at her knowing that it's gonna break her, I was like, what is going on for Taylor not to
Speaker: do something about this, you know, and it made, yeah, it made me either think that, oh, she's going to go through this timid arc or, oh, maybe she knows like she can almost like there's a sense of like, oh, Emma or Madison or one of these girls, like they have powers and she knows that they're, they're more than hers. And then we have the bitch interaction.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, wow. Oh, OK. No, this is a firecracker that we have going on here. And I think she did mention that she didn't necessarily want to start using her powers on. Innocence because.
Speaker: she felt like that was going to, one, open a floodgate that she didn't think she would be able to stop. At least that's the vibe that I was getting from her thoughts. And then I think she also has said like, right now she can separate, like she can escape. She even mentioned escapism. Like she could escape by going and being this alternate personality, this alternate character. And if she starts using her powers when she's not
Speaker: being that character, I think that she's afraid that, I don't think that she's, I think she thinks that her timid, bullied self will bleed over into her confident superhero self. Yes, very much the Batman and Robin dynamic where he's just like, we don't kill because it's hard. We don't kill because it would be too easy. Like that whole thing where it's just like, once you give in,
Speaker: Yeah i want to cross that line. At this point where Taylor is she said that she wants to be a cape as well she wants to be a hero and she's met arms master and she feels like oh i have this in so there's also this pressure to be like you know i can't i can't attack the girls at my school with wasps because then
Speaker: what superhero agency is going to be like, Oh yeah, we want her on our team. You know, um, they go through this whole line of logic in arc one. I'm pretty sure where she goes through her head and says, Hey, if I do this, they're going to be like, Oh, like, this isn't going to be some weird thing happens. Nobody's going to go, ah, what an odd coincidence. They're going to go, somebody's got powers there. They're going to come in. They're going to inspect. They're going to find me out.
Speaker: And they're going to be like, there's that troubled youth who had powers and then I'm not going to be a superhero. Yeah, exactly. She's very aware of people's perceptions, like not just perception of like what she looks like, but that people are looking out for this. Same with, uh, how she like, yeah, if you're looking up certain stuff online, people could probably find you like she's not unaware that how easy it would be for her to mess up and for people to find her out.
Speaker: Which is right. Honestly, like, like she said, you know, very much the Batman, you know, no killing thing. It's partly that that's a line I don't want to cross because I think it would just be easier after that. But the first reason she gives us is very utilitarian. If I lash out at them, I will get outed. Right. Right. And she's even like, she still has the secret from her dad too, which he mentions in her logic as well.
Speaker: that lashing out before she tells her dad is not how she wants her dad to find out that she has powers. What I think is interesting with that is that she kind of has this very clear image of what she believes a superhero does, which I find very interesting looking at the interlude at the end of arc two and seeing glory girl and panacea interacting with this thug and kind of like,
Speaker: It's interesting because it's like Taylor isn't a superhero. She's not in the world. She's had one interaction.
Speaker: with one good guy on a roof. And she has this assumption of what that's gonna look like if she were to become a hero. And even the way that she's joining the undersiders, her whole motivation behind it is like, well, I can basically investigate and get information and bring it back to arms master or bring it back to somebody or basically do good while being undercover. And it's interesting because here we have this
Speaker: you know, interlude to the end where Glory Girl is almost killing this guy. And that line of capes of being good or being bad
Speaker: is kind of blurred and seeing what that's gonna look like as Taylor becomes more and more part of the undersiders and whatever underbelly that she gets pulled into is like, where is the line? Because it doesn't seem like it's so black and white.
Speaker: Yeah. And that, and that's such a, I mean, that becomes such a theme in the whole story. And I love that you brought that up. The contrast between the whole, this whole arc could be summed up with like how Taylor is approaching that line. And she's sort of wrestling with how she's going to be involved. She's now, she's, you know, doing her superhero thing. Like how's this going to look contrasted with, as you said, glory girls, just very,
Speaker: brute approach towards the hero lifestyle. And that is such a theme to the whole story of just like, where is that line and who gets to cross it. And it's subtly mentioned in that interlude too, that
Speaker: Glory Girl and Panacea are part of the new wave of heroes. Um, and if, if you didn't, uh, you know, it, it wasn't quite so obvious, but it was in there and I remembered it from later new part of what's unique about new wave is that they have public identities with their real names. Uh, and so whereas being as a Cape and Taylor's mind, it's inherent that you have to lie to people you love in order to be a Cape.
Speaker: For new wave there is that powerful contrast because they're like, no, you know who my mom is. She's the biggest lawyer in the whole town. She's going to mess you up if you try to come after me, you know, like this very public persona as a superhero, which is just very different.
Speaker: I definitely think that it's going to be very interesting to see the private contractor aspect versus like the government or protectorate aspect of things. I definitely want to see some conflict there, but something I'm also excited about that Wild Bo seems to be doing very well.
Speaker: is just showing the learning curve that's going to happen because I know we haven't mentioned it yet, but my God, I literally had a visceral reaction whenever I found out that lung will not be giving baby lungs anymore. In her mind, she's like this, I'll put it in quotes since he never says it, but this dragon
Speaker: You know, of course he can just take a couple of, you know, bug bites to the dick. I mean, can't we all? And then they're like, bro, you put him into the hospital. Like an ER doc was like, oh, he'll be fine. And then came back and was like, oh no. Oh God.
Speaker: This is this is the segment I would like to introduce our podcast within the podcast called what the fuck Taylor And on this time what the fuck Taylor rotting lungs junk off Jesus Christ yeah Second to realize you were talking about what the fuck book Taylor because it could go either way I
Speaker: I mean, Taylor, she is very, I'll say, I'll say she right after I say Taylor, so we know which Taylor we're talking about. Taylor, she is horrified finding out that that lung is in the hospital. And like, I think what's great about that conversation is her realizing like, Oh, my power
Speaker: is way stronger than I anticipated. I put this guy, this guy who is supposed to be unbeatable, and as Gru and Tattletales say, who has had multiple groups go up against him and not make a single dent, she went up against him, hidden on a rooftop, and now he's in the hospital.
Speaker: And I think that that moment of Taylor being like, oh, my God, like I, I did that, like kind of that realization of like horror, like, oh, my God, I did that. But then also a little bit of pride of like, I did that like that was me. And that is very exciting to see Taylor figuring out her power, figuring out
Speaker: what she can do with her bugs and i love i love the mental image of this huge swarm between her and bitches dogs and her just like. Creating this giant warming wall that these massive dogs are terrified to.
Speaker: You know go near because she's protecting herself with this wall of bugs like that is oh it's such a Clear image in my head, and I love it At least I thought I read that it was it was just one of them was a shitty dog one
Speaker: One of them is a hairless dog, I believe. Yeah. I know. We got to look up to look because I could have sworn I know one was a German. I'll look it up. I'll look it up. If it's not, it is now.
Speaker: Spiritually, it was a shit. To build off of what you just said, Hannah, though, I love the contrast of her confrontation with Bitch in this arc to the very end of arc one, where our master is asking her, like, hey, do you think you could have taken the undersiders? And she's like, well, I'm pretty sure the girl with the dogs could have taken me on her own. So no. And like now realizing post
Speaker: hospitalized lung and the, not like a fight, but a bit of a confrontation with, with bitch that like, Oh no, she probably could. She probably could take her. Like it would be a closer fight was what was kind of fun. And before we come back to the undersiders right quick, you just put this image in my head of arms master at the press conference and they're like, all right, so we see that you've started using like utilizing bugs to castrate your enemies. And he's like, wait, what?
Speaker: And they're like, yeah, would you like to elaborate on that? He's like, oh, uh, like that's just, that image just sounds hilarious. Um, but to tie both of the, oh, please go ahead. I would say to tie both of those together, what we've been talking about, there's a point where, uh, we're Taylor's looking at, you know, the news article and she smiles to herself about lungs arrest. And I find it so telling about her character that it's a point of pride, not anger that
Speaker: that Arms Master's taking credit for it. That she's, she's not, it's not that she's like, oh, I wish that were me that I was, you know, on stage, you know, getting the attention. She's like, I'm thankful I could do that. Yeah, that I could help, that I could be a participant in making sure this guy is arrested. Yeah. Just showing it's not about the spotlight for her. It's like the desire to be a hero, to be a tape,
Speaker: is something else is driving her. Um, so I looked up really quick, the dogs, uh, bitches dogs. So it says here, the largest of the dogs, an ugly Rottweiler or a mutt with strong Rottweiler blood. And then we have the two other dogs, a German Shepherd and a hairless terrier with a missing ear and eye. That's the one I definitely thought was a Shih Tzu. Hairless Shih Tzu.
Speaker: I mean hairless terriers, you know, I do I do like the the mental image of bitch having like a Rottweiler a German Shepherd and a chihuahua
Speaker: I love that. I love it. The big ones go for like the face, neck, all of that stuff. You might get someone to go for the Achilles, you know, ankle biters, ankle biters. Yeah, for sure. Also, I just look this up really quick. The American hairless terrier looks a little bit like a Jack Russell, smaller, but is hairless. You don't say gross. Ew, gross.
Speaker: I'll definitely I'll plug this this show because it was really great and I think most of us have seen it and enjoyed it but I thought that dairy girls did a very good job of showing teenagers as teenagers and I will relate that to this I think the undersiders does a really good job of showing like teenagers operating in this manner because it's kind of like oh I
Speaker: We have a new person. Let's just show our identities. Let's just show our powers. Let's just invite you in to our Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles pizza den. And let's just a little tussle. Let's get into a little, you know, it was, it's just very, even though I, you could tell that they were trying to, Oh, of course she showed up in costume. Like, Oh, of course, you know, we're trying to like also be secretive and not trustworthy, but also we're teenagers. So we're like not doing it effectively. I just thought it was great.
Speaker: in that aspect. It's very, very high school click, you know, clicky sort of feeling, which is another great contrast to, to the bullies in her actual school where, you know, she's been abandoned by her friends, her former friends for so long. And now she, here she is just accepted into another sort of teen
Speaker: friend group. And she's obviously, even though she's not as outspoken about it, you can tell that she's just very eager to... Well, she starved for attention. She starved for friendship. She starved for a social interaction that doesn't end with juice being poured all over her head. Her telling her dad on the phone just being like, yeah, I think they're good people, even while a gun sits on the table, not a couple feet from her. It shows that
Speaker: Taylor, these are not good people, but also you are so desperate to be liked and treated like a person. Like I, you know? So I think that, you know, at the very end there, she had said like, oh, these seem like good people. And it says, I lied. That for me solidified the idea in my head that Taylor is a little bit of an unreliable narrator.
Speaker: because I think she's trying to almost convince us that she's a good guy and she would never, ever consider truly being on their side because they're bad guys. But I think in reality, she is kind of liking them, especially Brian Gru and Lisa Tattletale.
Speaker: So I think there's a little bit of like her trying to tell us that like, oh yeah, I'm just, I'm doing this for, so I can get Intel or, oh yeah, like there, she's never going to know. Like Tattletale might find out that I'm not truly here for the right reasons and whatnot, but I'm like, uh, maybe Tattletale knows more about you than you do in this situation. Yeah.
Speaker: But I mean, also she gets one side hug, like a single side hug. And it literally says, oh, wow, having one of these not from my dad is awesome. And I was like, yeah, I was like instant best friends or even even.
Speaker: She even says that she was embarrassed that a guy like him, Brian, grew, would be pleased like that on her account. And I'm like, any sort of attention, she is just soaking up desperately. And not even in a bad way, because this is like the right kind of attention, right? They're not even like giving, it's not even like the,
Speaker: I mean, let's talk about like the 90s, early 2000s, like trope in teen movies where it's like all of a sudden they start talking to the unpopular girl and like, oh, we're going to make her, you know, and they're all, you know, you think they're gonna be your best friends. Right. You think they're gonna be your best friends, but really they're being assholes. This I'm like, this is like the right kind of attention. Like they're actually
Speaker: Which I actually did think about the same concept Nick that you just said like take it off her glasses I was like she keeps talking about how plain she looks and I have a feeling that if we ever get Brian or Lisa's perspective I feel like the perception from the outside world is gonna be different I feel like she I don't necessarily think we're gonna be like oh my god. She's actually the hottest person ever I just did gorgeous I just think that again, I think she's a bit of an unreliable narrator and she's a
Speaker: She, we're just getting what she feels and what she thinks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the reality here. Um, so things could end up being more than she actually thinks she is. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a really good observation too. Uh, with the unreliable narrator part, that's something I hadn't even really thought of rereading it. So.
Speaker: Uh, that's really good. Hope we don't get a teenage boy perspective where he's just like, Oh, I walk into the clubhouse and oh, hottie. Number one is talking to hottie. Number two. Let me sit in the bathroom right quick. Oh, I think the fortunate, we have, we have the fortunate, uh, at least for the, the boy characters we have, we have a region or Alec who's just kind of an ass. He's not like that kind of a guy. He's just a little bit of an ass. Yeah. Um, and then Brian, who is like.
Speaker: the young Idris Elba. Oh my God. I do love the diversity of the characters so far. I don't think we've had any lack of diversity in this. I mean, I also like books that don't describe characters almost at all, just because then you can kind of let your imagination go. Yeah.
Speaker: Sometimes when books are trying to add in diversity, it almost feels like in your face. And I mean, like, they're just so explicit of like, and they were a black man. And you're just like, you didn't have to do that. I'm not like, you could probably have been a little bit more subtle and we could have figured it out. Or you could have just not. And it would have been better than the way you described it. But I feel like they're doing, I think John McCrae has done a really good job
Speaker: Is that his name, John? Yeah. You think so? Yeah, sure. It's John. Yes. Wafo, sorry. Mr. McCray is my phone. Mr. McCray. I think he does a really good job of describing diverse characters without it feeling... What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker: Or like pushy. I mean, I agree with you. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think there's a right and a wrong way to have a diverse cast of characters without it feeling like, well, I'm going to have my token block character and I'm going to have my token gay character and I'm going to have my token, whatever. And it's like, you can tell, we can all tell if there's a book or a movie or a show that does that. It feels forced. It feels weird, but I like what you said, Kat. This doesn't feel weird. It feels natural.
Speaker: Like, it doesn't feel like, you know, Gru was our token black character at all. It feels like just a bunch of people hanging out. And I think it helps that Wild Bo sort of made a pretty bold decision early on.
Speaker: but to racially divide a lot of the groups and gangs within the world, within Brockton Bay specifically. So the first group we meet is the gang, the ABB, is all Asians. And then in the interlude here for Arc2, we hear about the white supremacist group. So it's a really interesting... It feels very real and it's a risky line to walk as a writer, obviously, when you're trying to
Speaker: portray reality, but also not obviously stereotypes. Exactly. Exactly. But I think he does a pretty good job at that. And you're right. It feels very natural. The world feels very real. And he does the smart thing of splitting it. Yep, everybody's bad. There's bad groups everywhere. Everyone's kind of a villain. Don't read too much into it. Just let the world be lived in.
Speaker: Everyone's a villain, I think is really what solidifies it though, because I feel like when we've had like racial and many other things when it's like a racial divide, it's always a, oh, this one's the good guys, this one's the bad guys. And that doesn't seem to be the case here. Everyone could be good and everyone can be bad. Like it's very clear already that
Speaker: The reason why there are racial gangs is because that's a reality of city life. And it sounds like they're in like a big city. I'm imagining like a New York. Yeah. It's the borough. Yeah. Yeah. It's in, um, I think it's supposed to be in Maine. Is that what I said? Uh, I thought it was, I don't think they ever. Okay.
Speaker: We know it's east -northeast, so I think people have just sort of speculated between like... Yeah, you are right, Nick. They did have some superheroes come down from Maine, because I remember Maine... They came down from Maine. That's what they said, yeah. They came down from Maine. But no, I am... And that's to that point, Kat, about everybody can be bad. That's why glory girls interlude is so important.
Speaker: I think too is that contrast between. Hey, the undersiders sure they're bad guys, but they're actually really nice versus glory girl. She's a superhero kind of mean like almost killed a guy. Not great. You know, I was saying this to, um, Taylor. My Taylor earlier that, um, I think it was, I thought it was kind of funny that she was like, Oh, fuck.
Speaker: I did it again. And then she like called her sister like, can you come? It's just like, are you kidding? Like, can you stop trying to, like, can you stop accidentally almost murdering people? I love that. She fucking punts a goddamn dumpster. Like I reread that to make sure she punts a goddamn dumpster into this guy. And I was like, did she punch it in front of him? Nope. She sent it down the alleyway, tumbling into his ass. Yeah.
Speaker: It was so fun rereading. I like that we're transitioning into the interlude because I love this interlude so much. It was so fun rereading this chapter post The Boys because this felt like a scene right out of The Boys where you have Lori girl who's really described, at least from the way I read it, her costume is very similar to Starlight.
Speaker: has got that same vibe, same look, all of that kind of stuff. And then just brutally inefficient in her tactics, which was just so fun reading that. But I wanted to contrast that with The Boys because obviously The Boys is like a
Speaker: a satire on the superhero genre and all this kind of stuff. And Worm isn't a satire, but yet that scene feels so realistic. Yes, if you give a teenager superhuman powers, do you really expect them to not
Speaker: just break kneecaps. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love the dynamic when Panacea comes in and how she's so hesitant at first. By the end, she's like, I mean, I didn't really heal them all the way up. Or did I? Maybe I'm playing mind games. They just felt so young. It was such a fun dynamic. I love both of them so much. Yeah.
Speaker: Also, I'm just going to jump in really quick here. And, um, so Brockton Bay is the Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts area. So, um, new England ish area. So I know they, they mentioned like, uh, like our Taylor said, uh, superheroes came down from Maine, but I couldn't remember if it was in Maine. So it was kind of in that new England area, which makes sense. Yeah. So think more kind of, uh, Boston me. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I think of just everything from the wire, like just take any season from the wire and that's where they're set. There you go. So one of my favorite things about worm are the powers. So I was wondering if we could talk about just the different powers and what your thoughts are, what you guys thoughts are on them, um, that are shown in the chapter, uh, or in the arc. Cause I, I love the superpowers and worm. That's part of what gets me into it is finding out what people can do. Yeah.
Speaker: Nick, I've got a great question to ask you. Ask me. What's your favorite power in this arc? That's a great question. My favorite power in this arc, uh, which is a good, I'm glad you clarified that. Um, honestly, this is really silly because we haven't even seen more than a split second of it, but I like Regent's power. I think here's the thing I like, and that's part of why I like Taylor too is because her power is one as we find out in this arc.
Speaker: It seems really small. It's like, yay, you can control bugs. Cool. Good for you. But then it turns out like, Oh no, this is actually, uh, kind of dangerous. Like, you know, lungs, dick fell off. Um, someone freaks out when I see the smallest spider. Um, I do not think that controlling massive amounts of bugs is a small feat regardless of any, absolutely.
Speaker: I'm like, you bring any bugs at me. I'm you've you've beat me. I'm done. You're good. And it's part of that is what if you had the power to keep the bugs away? There you go. That's me. If we trade off is, you know, that they exist. Oh, God. Insert the decimal.
Speaker: Yeah, but no, um, but that is, but in Taylor's mind, her power is feeling significant to her. Obviously they're not, we know they're not. Um, but to her, they do feel it, but that's why I like Regent's power because it's such a subtle power and we haven't really seen it used yet, but I just love that idea of somebody who with enough focus, you know, they can make you drop your cup of coffee in your lap. They can make you pull a trigger when you don't mean to, you know, all this stuff that like.
Speaker: Like it's such a small thing where he can make you fire a nerve impulse that you didn't mean to fire. Um, and we all have those moments where we, you know, sort of involuntarily twitch or something and it's awkward or, you know, or we stub our toe on something or whatever. And I just love the idea of a whole super villain who has to think so creatively at using their power. Uh, because it's such a small power, but it could be used in such creative ways. So regions is probably my favorite from the arc.
Speaker: Yeah, let's make that a, we'll make that a reoccurring, reoccurring question as the arcs go on. Just gonna definitely come back to that. Yeah. Go ahead, Alan. Oh, I was gonna say heck yeah. Cause I have that written new segment, my favorite Cape slash power. Perfect. And for this round, I will choose tattletale cause I freaking love. Tattletale's power. Just what does tattletale do? Tattletale fills in the blanks.
Speaker: Yeah. And I love, I love that at this point in the story, we don't really know what like, like Taylor doesn't know exactly how her power works. He's just kind of figuring out, she's like, Oh, she's, she's got great intuition, uh, you know, but it's, it's still very hidden from her. And obviously from kind of the audience as well, in terms of just like exactly how and how much you can use it and what it gives her and all this kind of stuff. And like, what kind of information does she get?
Speaker: really, really fun power from the reader's perspective, as we're kind of reading it through Taylor's eyes, trying to understand exactly who and what Tattletail can do. Yeah. It's one of those, it's not an upfront power, but the more you think about it, like most of these powers, but the more you think about it, the more application it has. And she goes in to describe, yeah,
Speaker: The more information I have to work with, the better, but I can just fill in blanks. So if it's like passwords are super easy. Cause you're like, Oh, I need a password. What's the password? Oh, fill in the blank. And she just has your password. Like that's super dangerous. Like Sherlock Holmes on crack.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Sherlock Holmes, not even trying. It's not even, she's just like, let me go to your mind palace real quick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of the undersiders have great, have great powers. I mean, it's, it's funny. I think out of all of them, I think, I think Bruce is my least favorite. But even with that being said, it's still really unique and like,
Speaker: and the way you're describing it, Nick, and just in terms of the way Wild Bo writes powers, there's darkness generation just isn't a power you see anywhere else. It's such a unique power and the way he uses it and all of that, obviously we'll kind of get into that as we see more of him, but
Speaker: But yeah, in the, in the extra effects it has to that create this sensory dampening zone is really interesting too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, actually my, my favorite, this arc was going to be grew. Like I love, I love that. I love that. That's.
Speaker: that's his power and like that he that he wrote his little addition into the wiki to like attempt to confuse people or anyone who might look up what his powers might be like i love that he even thought of that like oh yeah i'm gonna edit my own wiki so that people
Speaker: get confused by what I might do. And Taylor getting turned around in the darkness of being like, wait, I don't know where I am anymore. I've lost all sense of direction because her trying to go down the stairs in the dark or whatever. It's not just like, oh, who turned out the lights? It's like, you are so disoriented. You have no idea which direction you're going in. And I think about that a lot with like,
Speaker: fun fact, people who are drowning can get very disoriented and swim down instead of swim up because they get so turned around underwater. And like oftentimes the best way to figure that out is to follow the bubbles, you know, follow the bubbles up. And I love, but I love that. I love this, like, it's his, his power, Gru's power is so much more than just darkness. It's that disorientation is so, so cool. I'm, I'm into it. I'm very into it.
Speaker: Yeah, I'll agree with Hannah. I'm also team grew just because the way he describes it and everything and it's just a one -off line, but she's like oh Yeah, and it also like blocks radiation and I was like wait a second. This isn't darkness generation This is the literal absence of light and I was like that is awesome. We're literal like I
Speaker: Light waves and he's it's literally blocking everything and I was like, oh my gosh This is gonna have some really cool applications later on. Yes. Yeah, I'm so excited to see his power in action More like I can't wait to see it Cat did you say your favorite power? I have not so Favorite power I'd have to agree with grew
Speaker: Favorite cape though is definitely panacea. And the reason why is I love a good thought process going into naming. And panacea is the new god of universal health. So I really liked that. There was thought that went into her superhero name, her cape name. Because I feel like
Speaker: glory girl was such a cop. Like, oh, you go super human strength, you can fly. Glory girl. Glory girl. Her sister comes in and she's panacea and she's talking about the Hippocratic oath. And the thing is like, panacea is mentioned in the Hippocratic oath. Like if you read the full thing, um, I just thought it was kind of a really well thought out
Speaker: Analysis of her own power that and versus, you know in contrast to glory girl who obviously put zero thought into it Like none which is very clear in the way that she fights as well. So I'm really interested to see Amy a lot more Not because I mean like her power isn't specifically that like new in terms of like what we've seen before in other media, but I feel like she is
Speaker: I'm really interested in seeing how she uses her power, especially after the whole discussion about how she doesn't really want to like go into the brain because she's not, you know, she's very conscious of like not wanting to, you know, screw up with people's, um, mental states and all of that. Like you can tell that she has a conscious, a conscience, um,
Speaker: another line that somebody might not want to cross. Right. Exactly. So I'm actually really excited to see how she uses her power going forward. Yeah. Speaking of names and amazing names. Bug. Why? Oh, I love the fact, man, like I love that we're going to hear this for a while. This is
Speaker: But she's such a great cape name there's nothing wrong with this She didn't she did not think it That's right greatness is thrust upon you know, I mean it's easily remembered obviously but like I think that I
Speaker: a different name is going to come about. But I have a feeling that Bug is going to almost turn into a cute nickname that her friends call her, the Undersiders, because I'm calling it. They're going to be besties throughout the year. So yeah.
Speaker: Speaking of speaking of calling it, we can wrap up wrap up anyone else. No, no, no, no, because we've got to go. We've got to go. We've got to talk about the biggest thing here. Go for it. The the throw down. We've got to talk about the throw down. Oh, with with the bitch.
Speaker: Oh yeah. We're a fucking just punts her head like a soccer ball and then fucking bounces it like a basketball. I do love speaking of speaking of Taylor's thought process. I love how she, she's thinking about it. She's like, I'm not going to use my powers on people. And then that moment where like the glass, the glass in her mind shatters and she realizes, wait a second. This isn't a girl in my high school.
Speaker: I can beat this person up and just. This is a villain. This is a villain. And they're going to do call the cops.
Speaker: I loved that she was like, why did you do that? And then she just goes absolutely ballistic. Like she was like so hurt at first. And then she was like, wait a minute, you use your powers. I'm going to use mine. Yeah. All the, all the feelings, all the feelings from all the bullies just welling up and coming out. Yeah. Is just.
Speaker: Well, it also, it starts off with, yes, she's attacked by the dogs, but then she looks up and grew, has absolutely decked just bitch across the face, which equal opportunity, baby, let's go. But also it just shows that, oh, these are, these are teenagers. Like they're just scrapping and it's like, oh, hormones and emotions are flaring.
Speaker: And oh my gosh, I was, and then as soon as Taylor jumped in, I was like, yes, let's go stand up for yourself. And I love too, that like she intimidates dogs with her fleet of bugs too. I love it so much. You can, you can feel like, again, like realistic behavior. I don't know how realistic that is for dogs, but I feel like if, if.
Speaker: Like, cause you took a dog and then threw a whole swarm of bugs in front of it. The dog would be pretty confused and be, it'd be like, yo, wait, what the fuck? Cause I also had a note written down that if bitch and Taylor were reversed just personality, right wise, there would have been like 50 stray dogs, all trained, ready to go that she had just scattered throughout. But then it's like this absolute homeless idiot.
Speaker: Just, just so happens to, you know, be on the soup line and then get some powers. And I'm just like, Oh my God. Like I know that the writing and definitely wants to say. If their personalities were switched.
Speaker: Uh, then it'd be like a homeless guy with a, with, uh, bees living in his beard is like what I'm imagining. It's just the lice. It's just the lice. I like the bees in the beard. I like the bees in the beard. That's very cool. I love that imagery. I need a whole, I need a whole arc just on this man with bees in his beard. Oh, also that when, when the reason she comes back.
Speaker: She says, I just love this quote. I have two quotes and I'll end on the other one, but if I, I quit, she wins and I'm not fucking having that. So good.
Speaker: Absolutely. All right. Well, I guess we'll go to the ending segment and we'll do Taylor and Kat's predictions for the future. Yeah. Our Taylor and Kat, yeah. Predictions for the future. Absolutely. So predictions will like, I like, let's do it. How we would do it. So prediction and media predictions, like what do you think we're going to see in the next arc? And then any, any changes, any updates to your sort of long -term predictions, anything like that? What do you guys have? All right. Ladies first, go ahead. Okay. So, um,
Speaker: I'm already seeing her joining the undersiders, which was my prediction last time. So I don't think that this is going to change. She thinks that she's not staying with them, but she's staying with them. So I don't think that's a long -term and an immediate, because it's obviously pretty clear that she's becoming a little bit of emotionally attached to them, even with the small amount of interaction that she's had. And even despite the bitch.
Speaker: I think that, I mean, with the interlude, I don't think it's gonna be very long before she meets New Wave. So I'm kind of interested to see how that comes out, but I don't think I have any other new predictions for this one. So go ahead. Okay. I definitely was predicting the heal turn last time.
Speaker: Um, now I am about half and half. I could see her definitely seeing how the world works and jumping on with the undersiders or her being with the undersiders is going to help them kind of to go good, you know, or, or just as good as you can be in this universe. Um, and then longterm prediction.
Speaker: Uh, after having in the interlude, we've had the, uh, Nazi basically break down all the comings and goings. And we know that coil, uh, he is basically come onto the scene with about 50 or so paramilitary men armed with lasers. So we are definitely about, this is about to be like a political intrigue situation, I think, which I am totally down for seeing how.
Speaker: the libertarian superheroes are going to fight against the government superheroes are going to fight against the heist teams. It's, I have a feeling it's going to be a great time. All right. And did 9 -11 happen? We've got to find out so many questions. Yeah. We got to work on that one.
Speaker: All right, well, this was fun. Arc 3, I think, is we're going to stick with an arc a week here for as long as we can. So Arc 3 for next time. And thanks to everyone who's been listening and reading along with us. It's been a lot of fun. Stick around for part 2, where we break down adapting this second arc for visual media, for television. It's going to be a lot of fun. And we'll see you next time.
Speaker: All right, and welcome back to the second half of
Speaker: Episode two, where we dive into approaching worm from an adaptation perspective, specifically adapting it for long form television, some sort of serialized television formats, kind of the direction we're going here. We did arc one last episode, kind of breaking down, really condensing arc one into essentially the pilot episode.
Speaker: for the series. And now we're sort of moving into what's likely, I think, I think would be episode two of the series if we're kind of keeping an arc per episode at this point.
Speaker: Perfectly cut for another singular episode. Yeah, it feels that way and I'm sure we'll I'm sure we'll sort of overlap it arcs as as you move on but it's kind of nice at this point because we do sort of get enough to sort of fill an episode so So let's kind of dive into it. Let's so where do you want to start?
Speaker: We're gonna start by just saying it's me, Alan, and you, Jacob. And for right now, it's just the two of us over here. Yeah, yeah, thanks, yeah. Just us two in the booth for this episode, I think. I wrote at the top, routines define us. And this brings me to something I love about the writing and something that I think is gonna be hard to come across
Speaker: if not impossible for, uh, for the television. And that is how do you show what it's like to look through somebody's eyes? Because I, Taylor says this line, it's like one of the opening lines when she and her dad are getting up in the morning and making breakfast and all that routines define us. And I put like insects. Um,
Speaker: Yeah. Because that's a big part of Wild Bow is he writes specifically the worm characters in terms of like they are unique to their powers, how they view the world. And I don't know if you can get that unless you're like a really good director or something. I don't know how you're going to get that on the screen.
Speaker: Yeah, that's definitely a challenge. That's absolutely a challenge, especially with a first -person narrative for most of the story. That's always difficult because as a reader, when you're reading the story, you read through a lot of internal monologue and exposition and things like that that
Speaker: you know, unless you're doing at the great joke last time, unless you're doing like the film noir, you know, detective, you know, narrating over the action. It's really hard to convey that. How do you, how do you, how do you convey a lot of what is written visually without just resorting to just rote exposition, which we don't want to do. Um,
Speaker: I was thinking about that the other day, actually, because I was trying to think of stories that have had adaptations from first -person narratives. I'm sure there's been many. The only one that immediately jumped out to me was The Hunger Games, which was an interesting case because I don't
Speaker: having read most of the books and then seeing the films, I didn't actually care for the adaptations. I don't like the film's choices they made in many situations as opposed to the way the stories play out.
Speaker: when you read them. So maybe looking at that as sort of what to avoid, but it is definitely gonna be a tricky thing to do. Now, I think a lot of that can be solved with things that film and television can do that books can't, for example, showing in sex, crawling around, showing order and all of that kind of stuff. There's a lot of things you can do
Speaker: visually that, that the book doesn't do. So there's definitely some, some ways around that, but that's absolutely going to be a challenge for, for any director and writing this, putting this into a screenplay format. We have to sort of be aware of. Yeah. It's something I'm, I am both like worried about not that this is even my own writing, but like there's so much here that is internal monologue.
Speaker: that you would be shifting out and replacing with very subtle cues. And I don't think you should, I don't think there should be any more than subtle cues because I think if you overtly had somebody narrate, you know, do voiceover to be like, ah, yes. And here's what they're thinking inside their head. You know, I think that's only been done well, like,
Speaker: twice that I can think of. Yeah. And, you know, otherwise, like at the same time, it's just it's too little, but it would be so we would never get through anything if we had to have Taylor's internal monologue, because it's so interesting and so vital for this, but you got to cut it for time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And I think some of the issue that we just have to overcome is realizing that this is a different medium. And so because of that, you're going to get a different story because it's visual, it's not written. And you will just
Speaker: unfortunately lose some of that whenever you're switching mediums. And then the trade off is, again, gaining the advantages of being able to see things play out and being able to play with scenes and visualizing the insects, you know, for example, and things like that. So there's pros and cons. And one of the cons is definitely going to be losing some of the emotion that comes from reading Taylor's monologue. Yeah. Another interesting thing I was thinking about
Speaker: uh, in terms of like adaptations is this'll be an adaptation that it's, you know, it's based on a web serial and it's not a book. So the pacing for it. And there are books that do a type like this where every, every chapter is a self -contained kind of, uh,
Speaker: plot, you know, the four point plot of, you know, exposition, the rising action, like they'll do many versions of that. And then it leaves you on the cliffhanger so that you read the next one. Um, but the web serial is exactly that. Like you've got to have the cliffhanger. So the person reads the next part and, um, you know, adapting that to television is really easy. Cause that's,
Speaker: You want them hooked for the next scene. You want them hooked for the next episode. Like there's always a next as opposed to like a movie. And it makes you think of times that that's been done poorly. And Phantom of the Opera would be my go -to because Phantom of the Opera was a serial.
Speaker: Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure it was a mystery serial. Every chapter ended on a cliffhanger. You know, oh, who's this, who's that? Because they were trying to get you to read, you know, wait for next week or whatever to read the next one. And we've only ever put it into singular adaptation, like media. Like it's only ever been Broadway.
Speaker: And movies like, yeah, which is weird because like I said, you know, there's, what are you cliffhangering for in the middle of those, except for maybe acts, maybe.
Speaker: when it was, previously it was a cliffhanger at the end of every chapter, because that's what it was designed for. Yep. And you're right. I'm just looking it up just not to cut you off, but yeah, you're right. It was initially a serial in a French newspaper in the early 1900s before being formally released as a volume and then obviously adaptions later down the road. But yeah, no, you're absolutely right. But yeah, it just hit me when reading this, like this will do great for television.
Speaker: Um, because of that, just the way it's written always has a banger at the end of the arc, always has the banger, you know, like it's just set up to be continuous. Um, Oh, very much so. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And no, you're absolutely right. And obviously, I think we talked last time, we're not going to spoil anything beyond kind of the arcs we're working on just for anyone listening in who's reading along for the first time. But I think we're both well aware of events that happen down the road that just makes sense as, okay, well, this will probably be the end of, say, season one, right? Or this is going to be a cliffhanger for an episode in the middle of the season. There's very obvious moments that
Speaker: that we're going to get to. But no, that kind of makes our job a little easier, which is nice. And also with the arcs being, especially at this point, like we were saying, pretty neatly contained for episodes. Because like you were saying, he writes for the cliffhanger, he writes for
Speaker: the the reader to keep reading so it's gonna be it's gonna be really easy to transition that aspect of the story which is definitely gonna help. Which speaking of which let's talk just quickly because we mentioned this in the last episode of like that that kind of cliffhanger slash tag for the end of episode one or the end of arc one.
Speaker: And how I think I was thinking, I don't know if we were on the exact same page, but I was thinking because the because.
Speaker: ARC2 opens with Taylor reading the message from Tattletale about meeting up later. And I was thinking, what a great... There's a couple of ways you could end that first episode. I was trying to think of what's a good little tag to end on. And the two that came to mind was either ending on Taylor seeing the news report from the protectorate that that lung was captured.
Speaker: So kind of that little maybe a smirk or sigh of relief or something like that that just sort of reassures Taylor's commitment to her path, which is what she wants to do. Or then the other one I thought of was the same idea, but ending it on her seeing that message from Tattletail and kind of giving that sort of less certain
Speaker: but still exciting approach. But either way, I think there's a few different ways you could do that. I like the smirk approach because it just like you said, it solidifies that. And I think it goes really well with the ending of this one as well, which is the ending of the course for this is literally looks, you know, looks at camera, camera changes, you know, shot to the gun on the table back to, you know, looking at
Speaker: her and she's on the phone and she goes, good people. Yeah. And then what did cut right there. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think they're good. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. That's true. That is a great, yeah, that's good. Yeah, exactly. Like you said, you can even bring that smile back to that like little, yeah, I think they're good people. Bam. Which leads me to asking it, where do you put
Speaker: the interlude. Yeah, I was thinking about this because you could do two things. One, you could open with it. I think it's a great opener. I think you could. Yeah, I think it works really well. A little cold open, a little bit of world building, right? Yeah. It obviously kind of sets the stage for some things to come. You get a couple extra characters, some new faces. And also, Taylor's Ark doesn't really open in any sort of exciting fashion in this part.
Speaker: It gets it gets exciting, but it's not it's not the way you want to like jump into an episode for television, right? You want to kind of grab everybody. No, I think I think I think opening on the interlude would be fantastic. A fun bit of excitement, some different characters. Yeah, great, great way to open the episode. And for future reference, I think there's a few of these, you know, that you I think maybe just having the cold open with a lot of the ending interludes is just the way to go. But I also think
Speaker: have some post credit scenes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in a show like this, you want to be talking during the credits with whoever you're watching it with, you know, week to week. Uh, and then have that, you know, you're talking through it so that you can get to the post credit and then talk more. Um, especially as that's been kind of established for superhero movies. Yup. Thanks Marvel.
Speaker: But I don't think that's a terrible idea. I think that's fun and I don't think TV shows do it enough. Especially if you're streaming. There's no time limit, you know? Yeah, no, I agree. It's kind of funny. We've sort of grown at the after credits scene sometimes now, but it really is contained almost exclusively to Marvel with like a handful of other shows doing their own little spin on it every now and then.
Speaker: But it really does work when you're telling an expansive story that's going to continue and contain all these other characters. Marvel sort of uses it to promote their upcoming films and things like that. It's sort of not too related to anything. But I agree. I think we absolutely need to see more of them.
Speaker: And I had a great idea for one that I'm just noting the time here because I'm absolutely going to cut this because this is a huge spoiler. But I want to tell you right now because I think it'd be great. But at the end of episode one, just like a little fade out as the credits are rolling, we pull out of Brockton Bay and there's just a ripple across the ocean.
Speaker: And that's all we get. Just like a little touch. Oh, I love that. Oh, you tickled. I think you can leave that in. Okay. I think you can leave that in. I tickled my balls a little. Not gonna lie. We'll come back to that. Just a little tease for anybody else who's not quite sure what we're referring to. So that's really good. That's really subtle. Yeah. Especially for like, once again, we don't have a, for episode one,
Speaker: No, the interlude was the dad, and I don't think we need that as after. I think that gets thrown in the middle, actually. Yeah, probably. I think that's a great, because you only need it for like, what, a 15, 20 second shot? Yup, something quick. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: And I think the other thing we're going to run into a bit, we kind of already are, is warm is so big. It's so expansive. You can't devote the same amount of attention to everything that you can in the book. We're just not going to be able to. So it's really picking and choosing our battles and how much time we choose to devote. But we also have to make sure that we're giving enough
Speaker: so that these big scenes and moments and characters don't just come totally out of the blue, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sure we'll be, we'll be doing some editing and kind of rewriting as we, as we go along. But, uh, but no, I like that interlude interlude is the cold open. I think that's going to work for, for a few of these episodes here for sure. I mean, I think I forget if it's the boys that does it probably, but like you have the, the cold open there where like,
Speaker: you know they glory girl and panacea are walking away and joking and they walk basically, you know, past the camera.
Speaker: and the guy is laying on the street groaning and crawling, and that's when you throw Tidal right above him as he's wriggling away. Yep. Yep. Oh, man. We'll have to come back. Maybe we'll do a whole little episode of just designing Tidal sequences, because I think we could have a lot of fun with that. I cannot read or write for that matter without imagining vividly what it would look like in frame and stuff. Yeah.
Speaker: So for me, this is all naturally how it would occur.
Speaker: Well, and it's such a, I think it's another underutilized visual kind of, I don't want to say a gag, but I guess it kind of is a gag that I don't think is done enough, right? I think of just to kind of keep within the genre, I think Invincible on Amazon does such a clever job of incorporating the title sequence into the series. Yes.
Speaker: anyone who doesn't know hasn't seen Invincible, very simple. They just take the word Invincible, which is the title of the show. And when a character is about to say the word Invincible, they just cut and show the title. And that's all it is. It's such a simple little funny gag, but it works so well. And it just gives a little bit of character to the show that helps just really sell the tone of what you're watching. So I think there's a lot of really fun ways you can explore title crawls.
Speaker: Yeah. Especially since the chapters, like I love, you know, I love wild bow and I think his chapters are very hit or miss with the titles. Like I think he has an idea of what he's going for and I don't think it lands all the time.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. No, I kind of agree. Definitely think they don't they don't always hit. But again, that's something we necessarily always have to pull to pull from right when we're when we're titling episodes and things like that. You know what? While we're at it.
Speaker: We'll rewrite the titles. We've got to come up with the title of each episode. We'll rewrite the titles. I got you. Got you. There we go. Perfect. All right. What else, uh, what else you got on your visual motifs? Okay. Not even visual. Just motif. Maybe the word I'll go with motif. Yeah. That we follow and transfer to, and then follow a different one. Um, but it's kind of, it's kind of good through lines.
Speaker: Uh, the first is the pepper spray right at the beginning. You know, we talked about, she had this pepper spray, her dad, you know, gave her the pepper spray. Uh, that's why she has it, but she's using it. And then he asks her about the pepper spray at the beginning. And she like realizes she like left it in her costume or whatnot, but it's talked about. And so you can kind of like follow the pepper spray and where it's mentioned. Um, the other part of that is, uh, money.
Speaker: which I realize is really broad, but there's talk about, oh, you owe money for this textbook. Oh, here's some money for doing some stuff. Hey, would you like to make more money? Like, yeah, that's, you know, something that's bounced back and forth. And, and you know, those aren't just there. Those are, once again, those are going to be things that were mentioned before that continue to mention that like when we show maybe from now on,
Speaker: having a gun on the table, every time we show a shot from that kind of angle, we've gone on the table, we think back to that scene where, you know, she says, yeah, I think they're good people and lies to her dad about it. Like, I think having those visual motifs of bam, gun from this angle, you know, I think you can consistently do that for the rest of the story.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, that plays into an old Hitchcock rule of filmmaking, where it's got a name, but I forget what it's called, but basically the size of an object.
Speaker: within the framing of the shot is directly proportional to its importance in that shot. Right. Yeah. So, you know, you think of like two guys, you know, Western dual, you're going to get a close up of their hand on their gun because it's a dual. It's really important. You better show that if you don't, it feels wrong. So yeah, going along with that, you can absolutely frame
Speaker: because it doesn't have to be just objects. You can, of course, apply that to anything, just whether it's your referencing, like you said, how much something costs, right? Or you want to actually show the pepper spray. Things like that can absolutely be used to help sell the weight and emotion of a scene later on. Yeah. Yeah. Um, moving on from that, because that's like my entire thing for two point one, two point two through like two point
Speaker: five is just a lot of, uh, you know, it's the classroom stuff, but it's a lot of like looking on the wikis and looking online and the internal monologue. And I think we can zip through most of that, maybe do some like clicking, looking up some bigger things like the looking, seeing lungs arrest and then smiling. Uh,
Speaker: Especially if you show arms master basically in frame being like arm master caught that and like the fact that she smiles and doesn't get upset that he took all the credit Yeah, maybe some just like quick clicking through stuff But I don't think you should spend it any more than like five ten seconds of her researching stuff Because it's just so much typing in things looking it up like yeah, yeah maybe
Speaker: Maybe you spend a little bit more time if we're like showing like, oh, looking up the names of the undersiders and just some quick stuff on the screen. No, I agree. I agree. Maybe the big one being bitch. I mean, because that is the big one here and then trying to look up herself, you know, for the connection, obviously.
Speaker: Yeah, and you're right. It really shouldn't be more than a short scene, a couple minutes, right? Because one, it's hard to do text to screen. There's some creative ways that we've seen text messages and things like that done nowadays, which is pretty clever. But you really don't want to be watching your
Speaker: your protagonist watching a screen. It just doesn't translate well. But I agree. I mean, we need to have it in some capacity because it's an important little scene. It's an important exposition. Yeah. Especially searching for herself. And then looking up the undersiders and all that kind of stuff is going to be important. So you definitely put it in, but yeah, I agree. You don't spend too long on it. Kind of quickly work through the cast, get a few important details out of the way.
Speaker: Yeah. So what I do have a difficult problem with here. Okay. So we have to overcome. How do we show that, is it Emma was her best friend and is using the death of her mom to torture Taylor? Like Emma's using Taylor's mom's death to torture Taylor. Yeah. Because there's a whole flashback
Speaker: of them as kids. And I originally thought of using that as maybe our cold open. Um, but it would feel so weird to just have an entire flashback sequence right there, um, or anywhere else. So like, do we hang on to that for later? Yeah. Um, as a, as a thing, uh, that we, you know, we eventually realized like, Oh, she was her best friend and she's now she's a total bitch. Like that's why she knew that. Or do you like,
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know what to do with that. I feel like that's pretty important for how much this hurts Taylor. Yeah. No, I agree. And it is kind of tricky because you could put it into a quick line from her father, you know, at some point, maybe, maybe weather eating. Cause I think doesn't, I'm already forgetting the chapter a bit, but cause I feel like he mentioned something about that or maybe it's in his, in his interlude at the end of arc one. Um,
Speaker: but you could easily put in a quick line there or something like that. Uh, just something, something subtle to imply that there was a friendship there. Right. Yeah. Um, cause you don't have to go too deep into that, at least not right now. Yeah. I like that. I'm going to write that down. Dad, because the dad knew and he was, yeah. And you know, that would lead up that like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: But I agree. It's tricky because you want to, again, this is, this is going to be, I think a really common problem. Sound like a broken record, but it's going to be hard trying to figure out how to include bits of exposition into the story without, without the first person sort of narrative there. But uh, and I'd rather be more subtle than not in this case. I agree. Um, cause these are things that like aren't,
Speaker: essential to the story, but they add a lot of flavor to it. And I, once again, like I love less than more. So for me. Yeah. And I mean, audiences are smart. Like you, you give them a quick line, you give them a, you give them, you give them something here and there and they pick up the pieces, you know, it's pretty, pretty easy to figure these things out. You're right. You're right. I think
Speaker: Another thing showing is Taylor's stress flexing. Oh, okay. Yeah. She stress flexes a few times before this, but I think, and I can't remember if it's here or not, but when she's getting bullied, I think having her sit there and flex her hand and like maybe the bug noises in her head and her like, you know, doing breathing exercises and, you know, basically willing the bugs away. So she doesn't do anything. Yep. You know,
Speaker: But then later when she starts stress flexing, well, bitch is there, you know, just giving up on all that and going fucking hog wild like she does. Yep. Yep. You know, and that's one of those, like you're talking about the, you know, the dueling where like you're, you know, you're watching the frame is on the hand flexing. And then when it like halfway through flexing just kind of like stops and you're like, Oh shit. Like,
Speaker: You know, she realized like, why the fuck am I trying to relax? Like, I don't need to. Yeah. And exactly, exactly. And that just, that would flow so well. Yeah. Um, yeah, I feel like all the, honestly, the, her and her dad talking is one scene going to school is, you know, a couple quick scenes of like gladly pulling her aside. You know, that's nothing.
Speaker: Um, the biggest part of this episode comes when, you know, tattletale is talking to her, you know, meets her, invites her over. Yep. And then they have that conversation between this one and the last one. I don't know if we need an hour to long episodes. Yeah, again. And I think, I think it's gonna sort of,
Speaker: I think as we're writing it, we don't concern ourselves too much with that at this point. As you're putting together the final pieces, you want to make sure that there's some uniformity there. But no, I agree. I think it's smarter to just work on adapting the arcs and scenes as they come and then figure out the rest later if you need to add or remove stuff. I would make the argument that this episode would be shorter than the first arc.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, it feels that way. I think, I mean, I think the largest, the longest scene is would be her with the undersiders, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, and that pretty much carries you through the end of, through the end of the arc. So yeah, I agree. This is one of those, this is why I like streaming as a platform to put it on is I was watching Ted Lasso on Apple. So good. And, you know, I love that.
Speaker: But I remember watching, they were 20, you know, they started like in the twenties, you know, like 23 minute episode, you know, very quick, very to the point, you know, very tight dialogue and everything. Um, but that's only for the first season. And by the end of the first season, they're up to like 30 minutes after that, it wildly fluctuates, but it kinda steadily increases.
Speaker: And then occasionally we'll have like a down crease where by the end you're having hour long episodes and occasionally you'll have like a weird 40 minute episode. Right. Right. So, so the beauty of like, because you're not trying to fit it in a time slot, I think, you know, and, and, and once again, you know, you're not trying to invest as much production value into it until it's picked up. Uh, you know, obviously you have the first couple of seasons be
Speaker: 30 minute episodes, like, you know, first season's 30 minute episodes until the chapters do begin to build up in length and like, Hey, everybody liked season one. Every season after this is going to be hour long episodes because that's just how the chapters are built. But I think would also sell really well for like a show.
Speaker: Oh yeah. And you make a good point there with the fact that for the first season, you need to build an audience. So you don't risk your massive epic episodes and these massive budgets when you really don't know
Speaker: what your audience's response is going to be. And so you don't need to do that. You don't need to put more in than is there because the story sells itself. I mean, that's why we're having this whole podcast. The story is going to do that on its own. We don't have to worry about that.
Speaker: No, I agree. What I'd really love to see, and this is maybe something we can explore as we're kind of coming back over this and sort of framing episodes together. I was a huge fan of the way Andor framed its episodes, the Star Wars show on Disney Plus. I'm just going to need to watch it.
Speaker: Yeah, fantastic show. But just in terms of structure and or they released the episodes individually, but they're grouped into groups of three and three episodes represent sort of an arc of the story. And there's 12 episodes total. And so the first three are an arc, the second three are an arc. And then there's like, then there's like one gap episode.
Speaker: And then it's like another three and then like a final two or something like that. I have to look at it again. Um, but it's, it's a B it just flows so well because you get, you get that tension that we're talking about in those arcs between the episodes. And then there's this big release of tension at the end of each arc, but, but still keeps you engaged for the, for the next episode. But it's like, it's a beautiful build and release of tension as the season progresses.
Speaker: up into the climax of the season, which just is so earned because of that. And so it's something I think we could play around with a lot in terms of grouping episodes together that flow well together. For example, I think, honestly, we're not going to talk about it, but arcs two and three, I think, flow together pretty well. And so you can kind of cap
Speaker: groups of episodes off and think about those in terms of like, all right, this is a little arc of the story we're going to tell. And we're going to split it up into two or three parts and they can be between, you know, it doesn't really matter. 30 minutes, 45 minutes an hour, whatever, whatever you need to tell that chunk of story. Yeah. Yeah. Last thing I'm thinking about is like I'm watching
Speaker: vicariously the vampire diaries. Obviously I would never watch it directly because of course not me. Um, but you know, Hannah watches it. And so I, you know, not only vampire diaries, but I've also seen supernatural. I've been seeing, uh, just that vein of shows. Yeah. Um, and now, but now that being said, I have of course watched Jenny Nicholson's
Speaker: Uh, Jenny Nichols, Nicholson, Nicholson. Yeah. Her like three and a half hour, uh, breakdown of the vampire diaries. So I feel like I have a complete knowledge of the show. Um, but it just made me think like, man, for how wild the story is, um, the cast of characters, the, the like,
Speaker: I don't know the kind of the budget, how small it feels almost, but what it's trying to do. Like, I feel like worm could very easily fit in with that kind of budgetary restrictions for a lot of the show. And.
Speaker: but it would just be better writing. It would be so easy. Like I could see when these characters are talking, like I could literally see, oh, what if we just had that actor play this character in worm? Like, it would be just so much more compelling of a story, but you could literally keep the same, like, and there are some things they do where they get really creative with like vampire powers and stuff. Like how do you shoot super speed and strength? Yeah.
Speaker: You know, like I think small things like that show a level of creativity that wild bow had when writing it that I think would be interesting to see a low budget director figure out a way to replicate that on film. Yeah. You know, how do you show all the cool powers when you have a low budget? Uh,
Speaker: You know, I think it would be really cool to see somebody try and do that. Now, obviously you hope it would do better than worse, but I think the creativity and the trying to show it off would be way better than, uh, than other stuff. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, I think, I think there's a,
Speaker: There is a freedom that comes with a lower budget production that seems counterintuitive, but I think you're spot on. I mean, I think just to use recent examples, Rings of Power had a massive budget.
Speaker: on Amazon per episode. I forget what the number was. It was like 20 or $30 million per episode. I mean, just outrageous. And it's used well. The show looks beautiful. I mean, it's a beautiful show. But I think back to what made the original Lord of the Rings films so impressive. And it was not a bloated budget.
Speaker: Now, they made their budget work, but what made those movies?
Speaker: great. We're just the care and time that Peter Jackson put into crafting each scene and the interactions of these characters. And that is absolutely something that you can recreate on a, on a smaller budget. You don't, you don't need that. And oftentimes I think those bigger budget shows feel like, Oh, well we can, we can just pay for it, right? We can just, we can fix it in post. Oh, we'll do re we'll do reshoots. We'll just, we'll bring everybody back. We'll, we'll take extra time, you know? And I think that I think you nailed it. I think a lot of, a lot of,
Speaker: the best shows made were done on smaller budgets because you were kind of forced to focus on what mattered and sort of let the rest just be affected by the important stuff. I think that's something to be said for the popularity of, for example, the CW DC shows.
Speaker: I'm not gonna lie, I have stopped watching most of them just because I can't handle the way a lot of those dramas go these days. But I respect a lot of what they did in the earlier days, which was just sort of letting the characters and the fun of the show sell itself and not get too bogged down. Because nobody cares if they can tell that an effect is a little bit less realistic than a big budget action film.
Speaker: You just want to watch a good show. You want to watch a good story unfold. So absolutely agree. Yeah. I got nothing else right now. I'm just excited to keep reading and start honestly writing on this.
Speaker: Yeah, I know we want to definitely start putting thoughts to paper here and we'll start spelling this out. And I think it's going to be fun as we're making our way parallel with the book club adapting arcs as we read them. I think it's going to be fun afterwards to go back and edit our work and start putting in foreshadowing and things like that that we want to make sure we get in and things like that. So it's going to be fun to work on this as we go here.
Speaker: All right, well, I don't have anything else. I think that about wraps it up. Thanks for everyone who's listening along with us. I hope you're enjoying. And let us know if you got any suggestions or ideas. We would definitely want to hear what everybody else is saying. Hopefully, we'll have a few others in the group here to share their thoughts as well as the weeks go on. But we'll catch you in episode three for Arc3. I think we're going to keep the Arc per episode for the time being.
Speaker: I had to see how that goes on for, you know, as long as it can. As long as it can. And there will be a point where we'll have to break it up, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Anyway, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening. Read along with us at parahumans .wordpress .com. We'd love to hear your thoughts. What did you love? What did you hate?
Speaker: You can find us on Twitter, threads, Instagram, TikTok, and Reddit, at Brockton Bay, BC, or click the link in the description.
