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Ep 68: From Litigator to Spin Instructor to Chief Legal Officer with Jasmine Singh
0 Playsin 53 minutes
Have you ever considered quitting your job outright because you felt like you were being pulled farther and farther away from your calling? And then finding your way back through a career change that's very different?
Join Jasmine Singh, former Chief Legal and People Officer at Binti, as she shares lessons she learned after taking time away from the legal profession about how to recalibrate your career to align with your principles and passions, and how a year instructing a spin class landed her the in-house role that led her all the way to the executive suite.
Listen as Jasmine discusses knowing when it’s the right time to quit, how to rely on your network and give back back to your community, realigning your career to match your values, getting your foot in the door as in-house counsel, and much more.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-67
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Why Jasmine chose to become a lawyer: 2:36
Knowing when to take a break: 5:50
Teaching spin classes: 14:06
Getting your first in-house role at 24 Hour Fitness: 18:26
How to position yourself during an in-house job interview: 21:36
Transitioning into tech counsel: 25:29
Explaining Binti and it’s mission: 30:59
Fulfilling a philanthropic mission with Dincert Movement: 36:22
Tips for people who feel stuck at work: 40:29
Rapid-fire questions: 42:54
Book recommendations: 44:19
What Jasmine wishes she’d known as a young lawyer: 47:35
Connect with us:
Jasmine Singh - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasmine-singh-b4a25274/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
Recommended
Transcript
Jasmine's Job Crisis and the Option to Quit
00:00:00
Speaker
Once late at night while I was at the office, I walked out to take a breath and like walk around the block because I was like, what am I doing? And I called my parents who I'm very awful at calling all the time and I was like, I'm sorry, I haven't called you back. What's going on? And I actually broke down crying to my dad who, you know, that is not a common occurrence in my dynamic with my family. That is not something we do, right?
00:00:25
Speaker
And he was like so taken aback. He was like, what is happening? And I was like, I am having a really hard time. I don't like this job. I don't know if I can keep doing this. And he said to me that why don't you just quit? And I was like, what? I'm allowed to quit?
00:00:44
Speaker
yeah And it was, it literally it broke, like at that point 30 years of this mentality that I had had of like never quit, you don't walk away, you work through, you push through, you persevere, it's all about grit, right? It was the first time that I had ever heard him or or given myself permission to hear that it is okay to walk away from a situation that does not serve you.
00:01:09
Speaker
And once that happened, it was like everything in my mind shifted. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, I can quit. Like, I don't have to keep doing this.
00:01:23
Speaker
Have you ever considered quitting your job outright because you felt like you were being pulled farther and farther away from your calling and then finding your way back through something, a career change that's very different?
00:01:38
Speaker
Today, we are joined on the abstract by Jasmine Singh, the chief legal and people officer at Binti. Binti Software is helping transform foster care in America, a really cool mission, working across 500 agencies in 34 states that serve over 150,000 children who are in care. Before joining Binti, Jasmine was the DGC at Patreon. She also led commercial legal at Pinterest.
00:02:07
Speaker
She started in-house at 24 Hour Fitness, which she transitioned to, spoiler alert, we're going to be talking about this, after taking more than a year away from the law to work as a spin instructor. Jasmine started her career as a litigator at a few different firms, which you've probably heard of. She can decide if she wants to name drop those or not. Jasmine, thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of The Abstract.
00:02:34
Speaker
Thank you so much, Tyler. I'm really excited to be here. I would say, as we've gotten to know each other, that you're a mission-oriented person. We're going to talk about that ah throughout sort of our conversation today. When you embarked on your career as a lawyer, what were you hoping for? What what did you want to pursue?
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah.
Jasmine's Legal Career and Initial Goals
00:02:55
Speaker
When I started as a lawyer, I think I had two major goals in mind. One was to actually make a difference in the world, like to do something that I felt like mattered and that had impact. And that was like a tangible thing that was, you know, either bringing more rights to people or bringing justice into the world. Right. I sort of was very excited about positive social impact and change. So that was one part of my desire behind and becoming a lawyer and what I expected would happen. And then the other part was around learning. I loved learning. I love school. I still love school. My kids just started school and I'm in there like back to school events being like, yeah, tell me more. How does reading work these days? How does math work these days? And so when I started practicing, I just was so excited about the prospect of learning how to do it right, learning how to do it the best I could possibly do.
00:03:46
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, I've talked with a lot of guests about curiosity being something that drives them, about the law being a practice, something that you sort of constantly need to learn and hone and yeah gather by osmosis over the course of many years. I guess what did you find instead, though, then? Yeah, yeah.
Conflicts Between Firm Expectations and Personal Goals
00:04:05
Speaker
And you know, I did find some opportunities to make a difference. And I did find some opportunities to learn. And I also found that a lot of the practice was going out and trying to figure it out myself, right? So like going and getting
00:04:23
Speaker
opportunities to do what I thought was important or what what mattered for my career. But when you're a young associate, right, that's really hard because you're given all this work to do that the firm needs you to do. yeah and it And it just needs to get done. But sometimes that work isn't actually what serves you or serves your career. So what I found sometimes was this internal tension between, okay, this is what needs to get done for me to be considered a quote unquote high performing associate. And this is the stuff that I actually think is cool.
00:04:52
Speaker
And maybe I want to do one day. And there was always a divide, not always a divide, but often a divide between them. Right. And in the work that I was doing, I did find some learning. And when I, when I was an early associate, I got really, really lucky in that I had some partners as a first year associate say you're going to take and defend depositions.
00:05:10
Speaker
and I felt so proud because that wasn't a common experience at that day and age especially and so I felt like oh my gosh this is an incredible opportunity to learn but then as years went on it wasn't always consistent that I was being invested in and that way or that I was finding work that was both satisfying and you know making a difference it it sort of was like I'm doing this because someone told me to do it and they're gonna judge me on how good I do it not because I actually care or because I know that it will teach me something or that I know it will make a difference in the world. Sure. And your ability to build a client for it too, probably. Yes. Yes. Yeah. yeah That was a huge part of it. Yeah.
Breaking Point and Realization of Misalignment
00:05:50
Speaker
What was the, I don't know if I'd characterize it as a breaking point or inflection point or when did you know that you needed to take a break? and yeah And I would also, I'd imagine that that was like pretty hard to do because you've cultivated this identity for yourself. yes And just any, I mean, people who go through layoffs, et cetera, I deal with this as well. It's like you're stepping back from something and now you have to sort of be Jasmine as opposed to be Jasmine, the associate at big name law firm that everybody understands.
00:06:20
Speaker
Absolutely. Yes. There is so much there that I want to talk about. And I'll start by saying Tyler, it absolutely was a break. Like it was a breaking point for me. Like I reached the brink. I was at my very edge and I was like, I can't do this anymore. And it was a combination of a few things. One was I was working like bananas hours and I mean like until four o'clock in the morning every day. It was my health was, you know, I had like all these issues. I was sick all the time and it just,
00:06:49
Speaker
Really took a physical and mental toll on me and then you know the mental toll got really tough to a place where I was like I am NOT Leveraging any of the things that make me me I'm not and any of the things that I had sort of historically thought of as my superpowers They didn't actually get to come into play in my day-to-day and about as a matter of fact I had to hide so many of them like my personality my spunk my happiness, right all of that stuff and isn't necessarily helpful when like what you're being told to do is like write a brief in a quiet dark room and you know like make sure that it gets filed on time right like those things don't necessarily help that and so I just felt like there was this internal break for me where it was really clear that the work I was doing did not align with who I wanted to be in the world.
00:07:36
Speaker
And I actually started to believe that I wasn't good at being a lawyer. I was convinced that I didn't know how to be a you know a good litigator, that I wasn't a good writer, that you know and i I had to work until 4 a.m. because I needed to you know do the most to get the best results and reviews. And I think some of that also was like cultural misalignment. I was working in places that didn't necessarily value all of the things that I had to bring to the table. And I was doing work that simply didn't need them. And so I truly reached a breaking point where I was just like, I don't know that I can do this anymore. And it was really hard, especially being the daughter of immigrants who, yeah they their whole lives, they worked jobs that maybe they didn't like or that didn't help them achieve their potential, right? And they put their heads down anyway and they did it because they had to. And I 1000% adopted that mentality. I was like, I don't have a choice. Like I have to do this work.
00:08:38
Speaker
ah this This is how life goes. You just put your head down and you do hard stuff and you make your way through it. It's not about being happy all the time. It's about making a good life for you and your future self. And I also had so many loans that I had to pay back from undergrad and law school. you know And that also weighed really heavily on me. And I share that really honestly and intentionally because I want to speak to people who feel like they don't have a way out because I for a very long time felt like I didn't have a way out. Like I didn't have a choice but to do work that was unsatisfying in an environment that was really tough because I didn't know how to look up and know that it was all going to work out okay.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, and to play like a amateur armature psychologist for a second, you've listed all these things. It's not just one thing. It's not just I have a bad boss, so I'm going to quit or I'm only I'm i'm having to work until 4am two weeks a year. And I've decided that that makes me unhealthy, right? It's like all of these things at once. Yes. I'm sure it's really hard to to be in the headspace where you can sort of sit back and and think a little bit more dispassionately. Is this who I want to be? And is this what I want to be doing with my life? Totally. Yeah. And you know thank goodness for friends who yes you know came to me and said, this doesn't seem right. right like We know who you really are in the world and your job has never matched who you are. And there's and there's like a fundamental misalignment between those things. And it's like, you know I was chasing this abstract notion of success, whatever that was supposed to be at the time for a big law litigator and you know all of that.
00:10:18
Speaker
but it really took to your point the sobering advice from somebody on the outside to say hey you may not be seeing this but we are seeing it and did and did you know that actually you don't have to live this way right right and my brain couldn't even get there without somebody else coming in and saying that to me.
00:10:38
Speaker
So two, two, I guess, sort of like follow up questions that like, one, you start to realize that how do you put it into action? Like, how does this lead to you deciding I'm going to take a year, it could have been two years or three years or five years, but I'm going to take time away and I'm going to go and try something very different.
A Joyful Detour: Spin Instructor Era
00:10:54
Speaker
And then two, I'd love to hear more about family and friends and folks, because I think that when people decide to go and do something very different. They think that they're going to run into a lot of opposition from their peer group. I don't know if that was your experience or not, but I'd love to hear about that. like What did you actually find your friends and family and other lawyers and folks said to you?
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, there so there were two major things that made a difference for me in making this decision. One is, um once late at night while I was at the office, I walked out to take a breath and like walk around the block because I was like, what am I doing? And I called my parents who I'm very awful at calling all the time. And I was like, I'm sorry. I haven't called you back. What's going on?
00:11:40
Speaker
And I actually broke down crying to my dad who, you know, that is not a common occurrence in my dynamic with my family. That is not something we do, right? And he was like so taken aback. He was like, what is happening? And I was like, I am having a really hard time. I don't like this job. I don't know if I can keep doing this. And he said to me, then why don't you just quit? And I was like, what?
00:12:05
Speaker
I'm allowed to quit. And it was, literally it broke. Like at that point 30 years of this mentality that I had had of like never quit. You don't walk away. You work through, you push through, you persevere. It's all about grit, right? It was the first time that I had ever heard him or or given myself permission to hear that it is okay to walk away from a situation that does not serve you. And once that happened, it was like everything in my mind shifted and then I was like, oh my gosh, I can quit. Like I don't have to keep doing this. And then the second element that was very helpful was my, he was my fiance at the time, my husband now. He is definitely the polar opposite of me. He's one of those guys that's just like, no, you should always do stuff that makes you happy. Like you should just, you know, Find stuff that serves you and do that and if you don't like something like who cares? And so his voice was constantly like you're gonna be okay Like you're gonna figure this out and you can totally walk away from this and you know he He would say things that also would probably appeal to my very logical mathematical mind He'd be like, did you know that for the number of hours you work at this job? You could work two full-time jobs and and make more money. And I was like, Oh, like he was like, literally, you could just go get two jobs and probably be less stressed out and you are right now. And I was like, Okay, now I just feel dumb. Like you're you're making me feel like I i can't even believe I didn't see all the cloud, right? It was like everything was in front of me. So knowing that I had ah that support, and this really speaks to privilege too, right? like Because he was like, you can come stay with me. like I will cover your rent for a few months while you figure this out. And you know that that was a really big concern for me living in San Francisco with all that debt and not totally sure how I was going to manage and where I was going to live. and
00:13:59
Speaker
How could I just quit with no plan? you know so I was very privileged in that I had his support in making a really tough decision. so How did you find your way back to the law then? right i mean If you've you've built up, you've you've said, I'm going to take i mean i'm gonna quit this. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to go and I'm going to try something very different. You're working as a spin instructor. I noticed the peloton behind you as well for those who are looking me on audio. so You still keep it up, it seems. i do Yes. And yeah how do you decide like, okay, I actually I might want to go and try the law again, but in a different way. Yeah.
Returning to Law with New Perspective
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah. In answering that question, I actually would love to talk a little bit about the experience of teaching spin and how that informs my return. Yeah. So my my husband actually at the time was living in Las Vegas, which, you know, you could like stop the story there and be like, what, like,
00:14:51
Speaker
How did you in San Francisco and he in Vegas? So I literally, I put all my stuff in storage in SF and I drove my car with like one suitcase to the summer of Las Vegas. And I was like, what am I going to do? I didn't, I didn't have a plan to go there and become a s spin instructor. I just got there and was like, Oh my Lord, what have I done? Like this was an awful idea. And so I started to just make lists of like, what do I love to do? What do I enjoy the most? And fitness and health and wellness has been a huge part of my life. I grew up playing sports, I oh i've loved working out, I've been a dancer. And so I was like, okay, I think I should do something that actually serves something that I know I love, as opposed to something that I feel like I've been chasing this abstract notion of success.
00:15:38
Speaker
So I just looked around for spin studios that were in the area and I went to all of them and I said, I love fitness. I'm a dancer. So I have a good sense of rhythm and music. Will you hire me? And some of them flat out were like, no, because you need to be certified. And that's not how this works. And I was like, okay. But there was this one studio called FSY. I don't know if it's still around, but ah look it up if you're in the Vegas area and they have an in-house certification program. So I went through their certification program. And I started teaching every morning at 6 a.m., ah which was, you know, everybody. Yeah. Bedtime. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was doing the opposite of what everybody else in Vegas was doing. Right. I was not partying. yeah was Yeah. I was going to bed early and waking up at like 5 a.m. to make it to my spin class on time. And I kid you not, it was the best job I had ever had. And I found that it was that was true for a few reasons. One is people were thrilled to be there. Even the people that were like, Oh, it's 6am. I can't believe I'm doing this. They're tired. yeah They were energetic about the task. They were excited about the music. They were smiling. They were laughing. You know, they all said thank you after class. They were high fiving like
00:16:52
Speaker
Yeah. and And I was like, oh my gosh, I am making a difference in these people's lives. Like going back to what we talked about, like my personal goal, like every single day I made a difference in somebody's life and they thanked me for it. And it just felt like, oh my gosh, how do I get more of this?
00:17:09
Speaker
Um, and being part of the community was also another thing that I felt like I was reminded I needed in my life to be a part of a group of people that are working towards a common objective. It just was this reminder of, you know, the glory of being on a team. And so when I started thinking, I knew I wasn't going to stay a sprint instructor, right? Like I just was like,
00:17:30
Speaker
im and way i I care way too much about success if we're being honest. right like I'm very honest about that. too like nice and fors though now totally totally and I don't mean success in terms of spin instructors are incredibly successful. I mean like my own like legal success. like my own mission of what that means to me. And I was like, I quit being a lawyer, but i I quit being that kind of lawyer. So I think I should try again. And I think I should try to not be a litigator. And I should try to go in house because in my mind, I wanted to be a part of a team that was building something that to me is what um and a company is doing. um And I want to be a part of something that's mission oriented, and it's making a difference every day. And again, that's part of like being an in house lawyer is like, you're actually helping to grow something. So that's kind of how I found my return was very inspired by what you know the the law had maybe not given me early on and then what spin did give me. Sure. 24 hour fitness in some ways then as a a return to being a lawyer makes a lot of sense and is a perfect fit. The flip side of that though is, yeah mean and maybe it's a little bit different these days with lots of layoffs in tech and remote work and such, but having a year sort of gap on your resume or a year of not being a lawyer. I mean, it's not the easiest thing in the world for a lot of folks to go in-house from the law firm directly, let alone right from something that is very radically different. Yes. How did you convince them to to hire you other than force your personality? and
00:19:07
Speaker
Well, you know, getting your foot in the door is impossible unless you have a connection. And I say to everybody, like, getting a job in-house, period, is very hard. Getting in one as a lit- as a litigator to not be a litigator, very
Networking and Transition to In-House Legal Role
00:19:21
Speaker
hard. Getting one as a spin instructor living in Las Vegas, impossible. And so, I mean, I spun my wheels for like nine months. I applied to all these jobs, I tried all this networking, and people were kind of like, thanks, but no thanks, right? Sure.
00:19:37
Speaker
I just knew that I wasn't going to get the job like by applying to a posting on the internet or you know by like trying to get a friend of a friend of a friend who didn't really know me to put in a good word. So I really leveraged my personal network as best as I could. And it just so happens that one of my former coworkers from when I was a baby lawyer was in-house at 24 Hour Fitness.
00:19:59
Speaker
And he and I had actually worked on a consumer class action in defense of 24-hour fitness when we were at this offer. So I was familiar with them and their in-house team from the days of representing them. And this person knew that he was going to be leaving his job and suggested that I apply. And that is 1000% the only reason they interviewed me. They would not have, and I know this, I'm honest about this, right?
00:20:24
Speaker
they would not have interviewed me if he hadn't said interview her, she's good, right? and then And then the rest was up to me. And then I was sort of like, okay, now I need to go in and convince these people that I can do this job even though I have not ever done this job.
00:20:40
Speaker
And I'd be happy to talk a little bit more about that if you feel like what's there. Please do. And I think this is also such a great reminder. Usually when you're hiring someone, you're hiring them to do something that they they maybe have not done at least in its entirety before, right? like You usually don't want to hire someone to do a job that's 100% things that they've done for the past seven years because then there's going to be no growth for them. They're not going to want to grow with you. but This is a great reminder also to folks to look at people who have maybe slightly different backgrounds than they would expect in a variety of ways because I'm sure in in in retrospect for a company like 24 Hour Fitness, you're a GC of you know a hot tech company. like You're a huge catch for a company like that in retrospect, I guess is what I'm saying. um
00:21:29
Speaker
It's a great reminder for folks to like take a chance on people who look slightly different or have slightly different backgrounds. Yes, absolutely. Tell us a little bit more about how yeah how you positioned yourself as you were interviewing. I think that's a really interesting way place to explore.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yeah so I went back to that theme that I have had in my whole life around learning and I told them look I am the most eager learner you will ever meet and I'm also an incredibly fast learner because being a litigator means you are a subject matter expert in every single case you're litigating and oftentimes you know it's like 5-10 at the same time and so I sort of proved I was like all I do is learn how to do stuff very quickly and at a very high level so if you've got someone that's willing to teach me contracts and willing to teach me transactional work or you know how what it is to be in-house, I am the person you want on your team because I will learn to the nth degree. And it's funny because I always go back to like child sports like you like growing up like when I played basketball I played basketball for a long time and I in junior high would always win the most coachable award and at the time And I was like, yeah, that means I work hard and I listen good. But as an adult, I'm like, what that really was, was me being like, I am always going to tell take what you tell me and put it into practice in a way that like makes sense and is productive. And so leveraging that, actually, when I went into the interview with the hiring manager, with Rob Chance, who I like shout him out all the time. He's like the best mentor and teacher. He was a basketball coach. And so I basically was like, put me in coach. Like I'm going to be your best, ah you know, shooting guard that you've ever had. I just need you to be willing to invest the time. I will do the reps. I will be in the gym every day at 6am. I will be the one in here working when nobody else is right. Like you want me on your team because I'm going to make you look good.
00:23:28
Speaker
right? And I'm not going to give up. And that dynamic for us actually really worked because it is how we forged a really strong relationship where he was willing to spend all that time with me. And the reason I mean, I shout him out is it was day in and day out of him and me in an office and me red lining and him looking at it and red lining on top or literally, you know, he's so good. that I would like star red lining and be like, I know what you're writing, but also you want to write it this way.
00:23:54
Speaker
I mean, he could just like rattle off, like he could write a contract like a dictating if he had to that, like literally he does not, he knows the blood. Yes, he could. And so he just spent so much time with me teaching me and being patient with me and, you know, investing effort in me, which I, you know, it has paid me dividends since then, because It gave me the confidence at the time that I knew how to do the job, but more than that, it has given me the confidence all these years later that I'm like, I i can do contracts in my sleep because of Rob. like Any contracts, give it to me and I'll figure it out because I understand the fundamentals of how they work and I understand how to be creative and how to problem solve.
00:24:41
Speaker
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00:25:02
Speaker
From creating and managing templates and workflows, to tracking approvals, e-signing, and reporting via an AI-powered repository, Spotdraft helps you in every stage of your contracting. And because it should work where you work, it integrates with all the tools your business already uses. Spotdraft is the key that unlocks the potential of your legal team. Make your contracting easier today at spotdraft.com. Was the evolution into tech then after 24-hour fitness? you move into tech Was that on purpose? Was that driven by circumstance? and but ah Let's let's like pull on this thread a little more. right like you You were able to position yourself, okay, this is what I learned being a litigator. These are the sort of skill sets underlying being good at that that can also apply here. Is it a similar sort of playbook to move from a company like 24-hour fitness into tech? i mean I'm sure people come to you all the time and say, how can I break not just into an in-house role, attack. Yeah, curious about that too. Yeah. So the move for me was intentional in that I did know I wanted to try my hand at tech. And I also wanted to stick with this mission driven company, um you know, things that inspire me and Pinterest mission is to inspire people to live a life they love. And like, yeah, how that also is my life goal, right? Like, at and
00:26:21
Speaker
for for me to do for other people, but also myself. And so I just felt such strong alignment. I'm also like a huge pinner. I'm a big user of the product. And so it felt like another moment where I was like, oh my gosh, like i this this is the job and this is the one. And hiring manager, another person who's a huge mentor in my life, yeah Jess Finkelstein, I also shot her out a ton. She had the mentality of like, you don't need to have worked at tech to be successful at tech.
00:26:48
Speaker
So she didn't limit how she was recruiting, which really helped me. And so I did exactly what I did the first time I went in and I pitched and I said, look, I've done every single flavor of contract. they They're not different at tech companies than they are at 24 Hour Fitness. and yeah bret And what was really cool for me is the breadth of work at 24 Hour Fitness really served me well because yes, it's a gym, but it's also a lessor of manufacturing. equipment. It's also a lessor of goods, including food. It's also a real estate related company, right? It's also an employer of 20,000 contingent workers across the company. So it's also the creator of a tech platform because they have an app too. So literally I was like, ah no, I have done everything you could possibly imagine under the sun.
00:27:36
Speaker
There is nothing that I haven't done that you guys do. Maybe they add sales, but like I can learn that. I sort of made this pitch to the team and they have really cool and hypotheticals of interviewing where they were like, okay, if you were to negotiate this kind of agreement, how would you issue spot versus this kind of agreement? How would you issue spot?
00:27:53
Speaker
And you know, um afterwards people were like, we were so amazed that you could just like do that. You gave the best answers. And I was like, yeah, that's what I did. Like all the time. And so for anybody that's looking to break into tech, like the advice I always give is really put very specifically out there how what you have done either is the same as what they're doing or serves you well in figuring out what they're doing very quickly. Because that line is always the fastest one to someone saying, oh, it may be different, but I understand. And once they understand, they feel like they' it's an easier path in. You talked a little bit about how Pinterest mission was really important to
Aligning Career with Personal Values
00:28:33
Speaker
you. And then you go to Patreon and now Binti, and as you've sort of moved through these different tech companies and taken on new roles, would you say that the mission of the business has been
00:28:44
Speaker
something that is the most important thing that you wait or one of the most important things that you wait. And now I'm always curious to hear from folks like how do you weigh that against maybe like the opportunity to grow in the next role or the opportunity for a title or for frankly for comp too, right? Like, like how have you thought about that as it as someone who knows now, like, hey, mission is something that's very important to me. Yeah, and I'd say mission and people for me are the most important. and i have to I am the type of person that has to care about what I'm building. Otherwise, I'm not motivated as highly as I might be otherwise.
00:29:22
Speaker
Also, I take a lot of pride in my work. right like i I spend a lot of time doing it and I want to go out in the world and say, like this is what I'm doing. like yeah you know Or like be a you know galvanizing force behind whatever the company is. or you know i always I always encourage people to use whatever product it is that I you know am helping build in the company. Sure.
00:29:44
Speaker
i So, mission matters to me because of how I am built in terms of like you know making a difference and making an impact. like To me, the mission of the company is one of the avenues or vehicles for me to do that. People, like I have to work with people who allow me to be myself and where I don't have to hide, where I don't have to code switch, where I can dress how I want, talk how I want, be how I want. right like i can't I spent a lot of years hiding when I was in law firms. I spent a lot of years pretending
00:30:15
Speaker
to be somebody that I wasn't, talk away that I didn't, right? like And that takes a major toll. And once I stopped, I was like, oh, thank goodness. like This is so liberating. And so I need to be around a group that is you know similarly minded, where it's not about sort of putting on errors. You can be yourself. You can make mistakes. You could say, oh, man, I really messed that up. But like I'm going to do it better next time. And so those two things, I think, are equally important.
00:30:42
Speaker
And then, you know, the growth opportunity, yes, I think that that matters because I am somebody that continually likes to learn and grow and challenge myself and do different things. But I don't think I would ever choose hyper growth alone if it meant I had to sacrifice to those, those two other things that I think mean the most to me. Tell us a little bit about Binti's
Binti's Mission to Reform Foster Care
00:31:02
Speaker
mission. i I tried to explain it just in the intro, but I probably didn't do it full justice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was pretty good. So Binti makes software for child welfare agencies to help with the foster and adoptive care process. So where we started was with a tool that helps foster families get licensed. So historically, that licensing process was all done via paper, pen, PDFs.
00:31:27
Speaker
We digitize the process so that families can apply more easily and so that social workers on the receiving side can process the paperwork, follow up more easily. Over the years, we have built more products that support the full life cycle of the foster process. So how we manage how social workers can manage where children are, how to make sure that they are able to be placed with families in a timely and efficient manner.
00:31:50
Speaker
um But what we're really indexing on is moving childware child welfare upstream. So how do we help support children in not being removed from their homes in the first place, right? How do we make sure that families who may be in danger are getting access to resources and support so that we can prevent the removal of home or children from homes? And also, if if there is no other choice than you know removal How do we make sure those kids stay with people in their communities, with their family members, with their next of kin, with extended you know relatives or family friends? How do we make those communities tighter and make those people be able to get licensed to be foster families um as opposed to community foster families? So we're really building like this full spectrum solution to try to help support this goal of ensuring that every child lives in a safe, like healthy home and has a family around them, whatever that family has defined as.
00:32:48
Speaker
That's interesting. I mean, you always hear, I guess, in the news about how the foster care system is broken or not working particularly well and not serving foster kids well, and it's is dangerous perhaps in some places. Are those sort of the some of the biggest problems, right? That there's they there would be earlier opportunities to sort of intervene or it just, I'm curious, tell me a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit about that.
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah. So, Binti supports both families and, you know, child welfare agencies. Our customers are child welfare agencies, right? Like families don't pay to use Binti, child welfare agencies pay, and there is sort of a, you know, an outward facing tool. And the hope is that by having the data that Binti helps digitize and collect and present to the social worker more easily, is that it's it's not as hard for them to make informed decisions about how to license when to license. So that process, you know, Binti is not involved in the actual licensure safety determination. That is still the social worker. But our hope is that by way of being able to better organize the data, the information, the documents,
00:33:58
Speaker
that things aren't slipping through the cracks, that people are aware of the choices and opportunities and issues that might come up. And so really presenting them with a ah a piece of technology that makes it easier for them to do their very, very hard jobs is our goal. Sure. What are you most proud of having accomplished during your tenure at Binti so far?
00:34:21
Speaker
Yeah. who your team yeah yeah so Two things that I'm really proud of. One is I supported on the rollout of our family finding product, which is a product that actually helps ah social workers locate what I was just saying, next of kin for children so that they don't have to be placed in community homes. so If, for example, a child was removed from their home and a social worker is just not aware of X of Kin, they can use this platform to build a family tree, go do research on who is connected to this kid, find out where they live, what their phone number is, and say, hey, your third cousin's son was removed and they don't have any other family, are you willing to take them on and become licensed to potentially support or be a placement for them? I was really proud of being involved in that product rollout just because, to me, it's really important that we keep families together in some way, shape, or form so that children feel loved and supported in the best ways possible. So I was proud of that. And then more on the enterprise side, I was promoted to chief legal and people officer just a few months ago. And I feel like, while again, that was sort of like this traditional notion of success and promotion.
00:35:35
Speaker
yeah The part of that that was really satisfying to me was the part that makes me feel like I was making a difference at the business. like I was doing something right such such that I was like being recognized almost for, okay, I have a perspective on how to run a good company, how to make people happy, how to think about you know employment and community and culture and those kinds of things. and so i I was really proud that I had the opportunity to take that work on and really lead that function.
00:36:05
Speaker
That's awesome. Congratulations. i mean We talk a lot on the podcast about, I would almost describe it as the transition from being like the company's lawyer to being an operator. right like You're up here to the rest of the C-suite. I'm sure you were doing it for a long time before the promotion, but that's a great... view You do a little bit of philanthropic work outside of work. I'm just curious to hear about that too because I think it's another expression of how maybe people out there can go and pursue mission driven work in other ways that aren't just like directly related to their day job. Yes.
Community Engagement through Dinsert
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah. So in 2016, I started this organization called Dinsert. It's literally a word I made up. It's dinner plus concerts, Dinsert. And basically the goal was to raise money for local nonprofits that were providing direct services. And the genesis for this was in 2016, post you know refugee ban, Muslim ban, we had in our in our Oakland community,
00:37:06
Speaker
a lot of folks whose families were being held at airports, being held at borders. um We also had a lot of recent refugees that were suffering from trauma, being divided from their families. And all I kept thinking is what can I do to help? like How can I get involved? And I was like, I'm not a therapist. I'm i'm not an educator. And a lot of these people were children or young folks.
00:37:29
Speaker
And what I would ask around about like, how can I volunteer? Every answer I got was, can you get us money? Like, can you donate money? How can we get money? hu And so that was the moment for me where I was like, okay, my goal is I'm going to try to find a way to get as much money as I can for these organizations. And in my mind, I was like, okay, maybe I can donate $500 or if I'm really stretching $1,000 of my own money.
00:37:54
Speaker
more Or I can invest $500 in throwing a party and convince all my friends to donate money. And then I get $5,000 instead of $500. And so that's really where the, you know, it's like friend sourcing, crowd raising, like idea came from for me was I was like, I can just multiply my fundraising impact by galvanizing my community and making sure that everybody knows why they're giving her what they're giving for.
00:38:23
Speaker
um And so I just started throwing these dinserts and you know like trying to get local bands to do it pro bono or low bono. I got local restaurants to donate food, to to try to keep my costs down. right like i was I was literally just paying for these parties on my own. It's it's also a good thing I like to throw parties.
00:38:41
Speaker
um And so, ah just like raising money, and now we've raised tens of thousands of dollars for several nonprofits that are you know running gamut. We started with that refugee work and the the trauma work. We've supported the East Oakland Collective, which is a nonprofit in Oakland that supports with community development. We supported a few work organizations that were doing work um in Arizona around the border crisis. and We've supported a nonprofit law firm in the city called Public Advocates, which does a lot of sort of civil rights, social justice work. So it's been a really fun experience for me to not just get connected to these really cool orgs that are making a difference and doing good work. But also in just knowing the power of community and people showing up to say, you know, OK, what can I do? I'll help cook food or OK, I'll help set up or I'll play my instrument or I know this band and they'll do it for free. So it's been a really nice experience for me and like building community and seeing how people show up for one another.
00:39:40
Speaker
That's fantastic. And no surprises that you had that sort of insight to pull that all together, given maybe like your work at Patreon and fantastic. yeah And that honestly, it was a draw to. So I started this far before. um And then when I went to Patreon and when I was interested in that, I was like, Oh, all of my life has these really interesting ties that at the in the moments I don't realize.
00:40:06
Speaker
But afterwards, I'm like, I see common threads, like this makes sense to me. And it's great because you're almost you're sort of you're living out your life and who you are at work and outside of work. And it's not a to to your point earlier. It's not like there's two different Jasmine's Jasmine at work. And right, that's really great.
00:40:25
Speaker
as we As we start to wrap up before I've got some fun questions for you, I'm just curious if you have any final tips for folks who might be feeling stuck at work or might feel like they're losing themselves or or who they want to be at work, losing it the sense of mission that they thought that they had. Yeah, tips for folks who might be in that sort of rut right now. Yeah, yeah, know that you're not alone. And try to find community where you can. And specifically, like, if you can find other people who feel similarly stuck, create a group and meet once a week or once every two weeks to talk about that stuckness and what your ideas are and hold one another accountable for coming up with, you know, ah things that you can explore, think about to make a difference.
00:41:12
Speaker
I just, I find doing that in community is so much easier than doing it alone, especially because, you know, often myself included, sometimes I just need another voice to interrupt this spiral when it starts the spiral of like, Oh, it's not going to change. I don't know how to change it. I'm stuck or I don't know what to do, or this is just going to be like this forever.
00:41:31
Speaker
And then every now and then you just need somebody else to be like, what about this? What if you think about it this way? So, you know, I'd say my first big piece of advice is do it in community. Don't go it alone. It's so much harder to do it alone. And then I think the other is, and this one's harder, but I think it's important, is find some kind of mentor or advocate. Find somebody who has been through something similar to what you've been through. Find somebody who, you know, maybe is in a place where you want to be one day and ask them how they got there. Try to make a connection with someone who can speak to where you are right now and help you see a world that is different. Because sometimes I myself anyway, just I needed to talk to people who were like, it was bad for me and it is so much better. And that way I could just believe, oh my gosh, it's going to get better. Or like, I'm going to figure this out, even though right now it feels like I have ruined everything. Yeah. I love the point about community too. I think there's a lot more, hopefully that sort of thing is a lot more accessible to folks maybe than when you were going through this, through all the sort of legal communities, the work that, I mean, i I'm lucky to do a little bit. I think that that's out there and and it's easier to find your peer group than it once was and then maybe find a few folks to confide in and talk to. Then maybe it was, you know, ah than it once was. Okay, some fun questions for you.
00:42:56
Speaker
yes Okay. the and I guess the answer could be the peloton behind you, but ah what's what's your favorite part of your day today?
Advice for Navigating Career and Personal Challenges
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah. My day today, I'd be talking to you. This is lovely. and I did do a quick ride before this. I would say on my day-to-day, it's a combination of you know my workouts. like those ah those are the best part of my day. just I love them. I love doing it. I love beating and achieving goals and you know sometimes doing it on my own or you know seeing people in a class or whatever do it with me. It's a really huge satisfying part of my day. Another really satisfying part of my day is when my kids come home from wherever they are like school and they run and hug me. like That feeling is just the best. That's another really, really great part of my day.
00:43:42
Speaker
i love that that's a great answer do you have a professional pet peeve ah yeah People that, this sounds so like annoying lawyer, but like if you mix up your and your or there and there, like that drives the nuts. And you know, auto correct, I know. And sometimes we're moving fast and I know. So like, you know, I give people some grace, but like, if you do it repeatedly, I honestly, like there have been times where I'm like, can we, can we not do that? Like, can we fix that? Or it's an it's like, let's stop. Let's, but let's use apostrophes correctly. a teachable moment. yeah yeah yeah I am a big reader and I always like to ask my guests if there's a book that they've read recently that they'd like to recommend to the audience or it could also be something that has been important in your professional journey, just yeah a book recommendation would be great.
00:44:35
Speaker
There's this book called a practice of groundedness. um And there was like some some title about like the transformative path to success that doesn't crush your soul or so something like that. that sounds so lofty But I have read I read that book for the first time when I was feeling a little stuck. And when I was sort of like, i you know, i I don't know what to do. And I don't know how to get unstuck, or I don't know how to get to the next level. But I actually revisit the book often when I find myself in in spirals around What does success mean? What does it mean to be successful? And what does it mean to be on this sort of like hamster wheel of success? And, you know, I'm actually like, I'm i'm reflecting in what I said earlier about like, oh, I care too much about success. I'm like mortified that I said that because for me, success is actually not wanting for more.
00:45:23
Speaker
Whether you're a lawyer or a spin instructor or whatever, right like the most successful people to me are those that are satisfied with their life right as it is and how it is. and Sometimes I come back to this book and I need to remind myself that like constantly wanting for something different constantly wanting for something more erodes my sense of happiness. And you know, there are lots of studies that say this is true for other people, but I i won't be too prescriptive and say that's true for everyone. But I know it's true for myself. And this book is a really good reminder for me. And I have, you know, it's tabbed and highlighted in places where I go back and read it. And it reminds me like,
00:46:03
Speaker
i to be more present in what I am and to be satisfied in living a really fun journey and not constantly trying to exceed succeed and get to the next level and get to the next thing and you know, check off that box that's going to give me a sense of Accomplishment of the serotonin that comes along with like oh check this out check this out right like i'm very intentionally not trying to live that life because i think it really can take away from current state happiness and it can really.
00:46:34
Speaker
undermine the joy that can come in like the most regular things, right? Like the beauty of the world, like waking up every day and seeing the most incredible flowers on my walk to my son's school. Like I don't ever want to lose sight of the fact that like I am very happy and lucky to have a life where I get to do that. And this book in particular is a nice reminder of how to live a life that allows for that.
00:47:01
Speaker
That really resonates with me and I'm sure with a lot of our listeners too who may be very focused on comparison or extra extrinsic markers of success or even things that are very good, right? Accomplishments, but that, you know, probably shouldn't be the thing that they're constantly focused on or that I'm constantly focused on and motivated by day to day. We will definitely put that in the show notes for folks to to go and buy at their local bookstore or on Amazon. Amazing. okay Yeah, it's a great book. I like it. My last question for you, Jasmine, and this is one that I like to ask pretty much all of our guests. If you could look back on your days as a lawyer just getting started, maybe right out of law school or early at one of the firms, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then?
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah. Trust your gut. like It's not going to lead you astray and you're you know you're going to be okay because that gut is going to guide you in the right direction. And so many of us, myself included, spend a lifetime telling that gut to be quiet. right? Because we're like, this is this is what I have to do or this is what's expected of me or this is what I need to do to get to the next level or whatever, right? I i wish I could go back and tell myself to stop doing that, um to let that voice be loud and to listen to it and listening to it.
00:48:27
Speaker
doesn't make me, you know, any less able to do my job or any less committed or any less resilient. As a matter of fact, it makes me more of those things because I can trust myself. And so I really, I really wish I could, yeah and this is what I try to do this for people that I mentor. I'm like, you know what's right for you. Nobody else, is right? And you you can't tell that voice that's shouting it to be quiet because it will only get louder over time. And you might find yourself in Las Vegas teaching spin, which, you know, being like, huh, like that this is what it took for me to listen to that voice. And for me, that was incredible. And it was incredible because I had the privilege to do it, but not everybody does. And it worked out for you, too. Yeah, it did. Jasmine, thank you so much for such a great conversation today and for joining me for this episode of The Abstract. yeah Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.
00:49:20
Speaker
And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.