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282 Donna Fisher | Contemporary Fiction Author and Winner of the Libraro Prize
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Discover how inaugural Libraro Prize winner Donna Fisher is tackling cancel culture in her new novel Sheep's Clothing, and how the platform that discovered her is removing traditional publishing gatekeepers.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question. love Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by author, short story writer, poet, and winner of the inaugural Librero Prize. It's Donna
Discussing 'Sheep's Clothing' and Its Themes
00:00:25
Speaker
Fisher. Hello.
00:00:26
Speaker
Jamie. Hi. jaie Thanks so much for for chatting with me. um Let's jump right in with the book which won the inaugural Librero Prize, Sheep's Clothing.
00:00:39
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about the story. Sure. so the story centers on a middle-aged singer called Harriet Holland, who has had a will they, won't they friendship with a bestselling author called Jed Grayson.
00:00:55
Speaker
And she has always assumed they would have some kind of happy ending together. um And on the eve of her career comeback where she is putting out an album and Jed has written a accompanying book to go with it.
00:01:09
Speaker
um He's accused of sexually assaulting her assistant and she's She's then put under a lot of public pressure to um denounce him, um but she can't make her mind up if he's innocent or guilty.
00:01:26
Speaker
um But she then has to make the choice of she either cancels him or she cancels her dreams because she's told that if she doesn't distance herself from him, then her career is effectively over.
00:01:40
Speaker
Okay. A difficult difficult decision, obviously, you know, inspired by some of the, the me too movement and stuff, that kind of thing.
Comparisons with 'The Morning Show' and Trust Issues
00:01:48
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. It reminds me of have you ever watched the show, the morning show?
00:01:52
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. That's, that's, I love that show. I think it's fantastic. The the first season yeah was, was excellent. Um, and it, it was, That certainly dealt with similar dynamics um about what someone does when, you know, that they they're told something about a person that they thought they knew very well. um Yeah. You know, they're not really i thinking sort of this day and age. People aren't given time.
00:02:16
Speaker
ah to consider the the truth. um There's sort of a ah need for instant decisions um and instant public statements and that sort of thing. So that was very much at the heart of of Sheep's Clothing when I was writing it. um And it's hopefully going to put readers in that position. So they are given the opportunity to read Harriet's lyrics that she's written, they get to read Jed's book extracts, um and they see flashbacks.
00:02:48
Speaker
And so they're kind of making their mind up about Jed at the same time that that Harriet is as she's journeying through the book. Yeah.
Changing Perceptions with New Information
00:02:58
Speaker
And, and, and on like a character level, it gives you a really interesting dynamic where it's like, well, you know, as a character, I've never seen that side of that person. That person has only been nice to me and useful to me. And it's like, it's like, are you able to comprehend that that person also has a dark side that they're entirely hiding from you?
00:03:18
Speaker
Indeed. and And I think that's something that I find quite fascinating, especially um with some of the sort of recent scandals that have taken place where you are told something about a person and it then doesn't just make you change how you perceive them now, but it kind of makes you look back on things they've said or done or, or, you know, written previously. Um, and then you start to kind of, you know,
00:03:44
Speaker
are you assessing that based on facts or are you now looking at that with a, with a filter on it? Um, and I do find it quite interesting, um, that, you know, our perception can be changed, um, by things that have occurred in the past that we thought were purely innocent before. Um, but with the revelation that, you know, this person might've had these other things going on, you then start to think, well, did, did we miss something?
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the perception of things. I remember something happened quite recently actually with the actor, Alan Richardson, where this video came out that basically had said that like, oh, he, he just like randomly attacked someone. And then a week later he released his own like body camera footage and it proved that like the other guy was totally like harassing him and in his way and being causing a scene. And i was like, oh yeah, it's, it's amazing how easy it is to like make an assumption based on a very small data
The Role of Social Media in Judgment and Narratives
00:04:37
Speaker
set. And then, yeah.
00:04:39
Speaker
And I think with social media, there is that, you know, everyone's attention spans are so much shorter now. um And so if a clip gets out there and, you know, the algorithm loves black and white stories, um you know, it wants it wants people to react strongly one way or the other. um And so, you know, a clip goes out like that, and people are going to have ah a very visceral reaction to it.
00:05:03
Speaker
um And it would be really interesting in that example to know if, you know, his longer version of events, um that's a bit more nuanced, whether that got quite as much coverage as the sort of more shocking video did.
00:05:16
Speaker
I think, I think it did because I think as much as people love to see a star fall, they also love a redemption arc. Yeah. So like, and it all happened so quickly that people were just kind of along for the journey, I think on that one, but yeah. Okay. Amazing. I mean, it sounds like you're, yeah, you're talking about topics that have never been more relevant, you know, the, the kind of how quickly someone is canceled and then whether that whether we should all jump on board of that or we should take a second to step back. Yeah, it sounds sounds ah sounds great. Let's talk about Libreiro as well. Obviously, the you know the the the company that you won the prize with. How did you, i mean, first of all, I have a kind of an understanding of what the company
Introducing Librero and Its Impact on Publishing
00:05:54
Speaker
does. Could you explain for everyone listening, what what is Libreiro as a platform? It's very new. so so what do they do?
00:06:00
Speaker
So it is a secure platform where writers can put sample chapters of their um unpublished or self-published novels um up for people to to take a read. And those readers could be readers, um people that just really enjoy stories, stories,
00:06:18
Speaker
and who want to give feedback to the writer. And that is the part of the platform that I absolutely love. You get to um actually interact with people who are, you know, giving you comments about um what they think about a character or if something isn't quite working. And I found that like really valuable as a sort of beta reader to feedback.
00:06:39
Speaker
um And it's also available for um industry people, so agents, publishers, and so on, um to have another way to discover new voices.
00:06:49
Speaker
And so it's it's got a bit of a a secondary um or it could be primary, depending on how you look at it, but it's it's to kind of remove the gatekeeping that is in the publishing world. um So I think anybody that's written um has gone through the querying process and knows how hard that is.
00:07:09
Speaker
um And what Libraro's basically doing is is rather than you having to sit and write a letter and send it out to multiple agents and editors and perhaps never hear anything back, you can actually put your work up um and no one's going to gate keep that. It's very possible that an editor could take a read one day, really like what they've seen, um and request a full manuscript from you. So it's it's just another way for people to be discovered, to get feedback.
00:07:37
Speaker
Um, and as a reader, I'm as. Enthusiastic a reader as I am a writer, it it's a really interesting way um to see stories that aren't out there yet.
00:07:48
Speaker
And you get to, you know, talk to the writer about, you know, what was their inspiration or, you know, what's going on with this character. And I just, I find it such a refreshing thing. um I've been kind of writing now, I guess, for 30 years. um And I've been querying for about 10 of those. And this is probably, know,
00:08:09
Speaker
the biggest change I've seen, um, in, in how writers could, could actually get their work discovered. Okay. Interesting. So it's sort of, it's, it's doing a lot of things at once. It's like, it's kind of a big online community writing group, so you can get feedback and like beta and stuff, yeah but also a platform for sharing people's work to a wider audience. And like, like you said, people in the industry, editors, agents. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
00:08:36
Speaker
Okay. And the the prize itself, do you have to like enter the prize or was it basically, is it just using everyone that's on the platform? No. So you had to enter. Um, I'd actually, the the book that won, um, the prize was not the first book that I put on Libraro. So I actually had a different novel on there. Um, and the reason I saw it in a newsletter, a few people have asked me now, how did I find out about Libraro? And I think it was in one of the writing newsletters. I'm subscribed to quite a few.
00:09:05
Speaker
um And as I think every writer is. um And so it was just a really interesting concept, I thought. And the the novel that I put on there called The Lastlings, it's a sort of N.A.
00:09:19
Speaker
cli-fi. um there was something just not quite working in in the opening chapters and I couldn't put my finger on what it was. And I thought this might be a good way because i was in ah I'm in a writing group, um but they um they had seen that story develop quite a lot. And what I was really looking for was a fresh pair of eyes um and I needed it to be in ah in a safe environment. So I put it on Lebron and I got some reader feedback within about 24 hours, I think. And they nailed it. They actually, they, they solved the issue that I was struggling with. And so when I, um I saw that, this is fantastic. um And so sheep's clothing was a bit of a, it's,
00:10:01
Speaker
It's something a little different and I was not sure how it was going to be received. I'd queried it with a few um agents and and hadn't got anywhere.
00:10:12
Speaker
um And so I thought I'm going to put it up and, and you know, I'll enter the prize. But it was really to to see what feedback I got um to see whether this was one that was going to end up getting put in the draw um or if it was something, you know, worth persevering with.
00:10:27
Speaker
Okay. Okay. That sounds, I mean, it sounds cool when, so you put up a certain number of pages. Is there a limit on how, how many pages or how many words you can put on? Um, I think there is a limit from memory. I think it's, I think the limit is, i think it's eight to 10,000 words. Um, it's roughly about three chapters.
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's, ah yeah, because that's how much agents ask for when when you submit to agents. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. And is is it per project or is it like you can only ever have that many out on your account at a certain time? um So the prize was free to enter and the first book you put on the platform is free to enter.
00:11:07
Speaker
And okay after that, it's a, it's sort of a sliding scale. So if you want more on there, I think you have to pay something, but it's, it's quite modest. I would say um it's probably about in line with what you would say as an entry fee for a writing in competition.
Donna Fisher's Writing Journey and Experiences
00:11:22
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. Okay. I just want to pick up on that. You said that you, the first novel you put on there was Cli-Fi. I've heard Cli-Fi before. This is climate fiction, right? Yes. But I'm not entirely sure what that entails. What what is climate fiction? So it's science fiction with an environmental slant to it. um So okay for the lastlings, it's about a girl that can communicate with trees. um she has um yeah She has plant DNA and it helps her understand trees. And when she starts telling people what the trees are saying, people aren't very happy about it.
00:12:01
Speaker
And so the story um is about her finding other people who are also able to do that. um And there's a lot in there as well about cancel culture. I was kind of writing at about the same time I was writing Sheep's Clothing. So there's a few sort of similar themes in there.
00:12:18
Speaker
um And it it was more about how social media um can be weaponized um and you know messages aren't necessarily getting through that that should do.
00:12:31
Speaker
Okay, right. Okay, that that clears things up. So it's it's sort of a sub genre of sci Yeah, just focused on climate change. And then that's okay, that's cool. um You mentioned that you have been writing for 30 years. Yes. I right? So I'm right in thinking, this will be your second published novel once, once Sheep's Clothing comes out.
00:12:54
Speaker
ah Because you self published Queen Tide in 2021. Is that right? Yes, I did. So that um that was the first full length novel that I did and I was very passionate and very in a hurry to get the story out there and didn't quite like how slow the the publishing industry was. um And so yeah i decided to self-publish and um this is a story in in patience for writers listening. um The day that it went live, I got an email from my dream publisher ah um saying that they were interested um and wanted to talk to me. um But unfortunately, it was too late. um And so I think I'd done the submission nine months earlier. And there I think their submission guidelines were, you know, 12 weeks or something like that. So I'd kind of thought, oh I haven't heard from them. You know, i'm I'm off. I'm going to go and do this myself. mean Yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, nine months it was. um But yeah, but that's okay. um I think self publishing was, was a worthwhile thing to do anyway, just to learn a bit more about the book industry and to understand marketing of books, which I did not understand.
00:14:05
Speaker
Um, and it was a very steep learning curve.
00:14:10
Speaker
Okay. Um, so was that 20 months? So that was, you've been writing for a long time and i know you do a lot of poetry and short stories, yeah but that Queen Tide, that was the first like long form fiction novel that you'd written. Yes, it was. Um, I'd kind of had a goal, um, a few goals actually, um, before that. And it was all just, I'd get to about 30,000 words and then just run out of steam.
00:14:33
Speaker
Um, there was no end of the story to go and it would just sit there and taught me on, on the desktop. Um, and so I ended up actually, signing up to a course that I saw advertised I think on Facebook with the novelry and it was the 90 day novel um and it was um it was what it was exactly what they say on the tin sort of thing um it was 90 days from Walder goal and then you had a first draft of a manuscript at the end of it
00:15:03
Speaker
And it worked. And it's a technique that I've continued to use um to to just get manuscripts completed. So Sheep's Clothing was actually the sixth long form that I'd written. Okay, wow. Yeah, and I still use the techniques that the novelry taught me.
00:15:20
Speaker
um I think it's it's a really valuable um approach, especially if you are that that kind of person that, you know, gets to the 30,000 and then runs runs out of steam. um So, yeah.
00:15:33
Speaker
Well, it's funny because i was just talking to one of my friends the other day who was an author and she was saying that she that around that a third of the way in to a novel, she was saying that's about the point where I lose faith and then want to rewrite the whole novel. And she's like, sometimes I have, you know, I've just started the whole thing again re-read it. It's definitely a point that like 30,000 words in Yeah. I don't know if it's like one of those things that everyone fears it now because everyone talks about it. too Yeah, but it was, you know, it was definitely a thing for me. um
00:16:05
Speaker
But the biggest thing that it taught me was just to keep going. So you you just carry on, you just keep pushing through until you've got a first draft. And it doesn't matter what it looks like, because it's easier to go back and edit something that's, you know, written down and and complete. um So, yeah, I've continued to do that. um And it's it's working for me.
00:16:27
Speaker
arc Okay. Amazing. And, and shout out to the novelry, uh, for their 90 day course, big thumbs up. yeah Um, I mentioned, you know, you, you write, you write poems and short stories, which you publish on your sub stack brewed by, by Donna Fisher.
00:16:43
Speaker
Um, how is, we've we've heard about your 90 day process to some degree. How different is the process for writing short stories versus poems versus novels for you?
00:16:54
Speaker
um So I'd say with the poetry, that tends to be something that comes out sort of fairly quickly. um It's usually something that's happened or um it's it's something that i tend to do outside quite a lot. So um I started doing forest therapy um a few years ago um when I was dealing with some chronic pain issues and And would journal um when I was sitting in the forest to try and relax myself and not think about the snakes and spiders and all the things in Australia that can kill you in forest. yes. but I didn't quite find it very relaxing. um So I would go and write poetry to just kind of get out of my head a little bit and um I really enjoyed it. And and so I've continued to do that. um So I tend to always have a notebook with me or the notes app open on my phone.
Exploring Different Genres and Writing Processes
00:17:43
Speaker
um Short stories, um that usually starts, a scene will pop into my head and um it usually is a case of just, you know, just having a go and just seeing where it it goes. I tend not to plot those out. They just kind of fall out of me. and Whereas with long form, I tend to now um plot that not not to every single scene, but I know how I'm going to get from A to B.
00:18:14
Speaker
Um, and then, you know, I meander along the way, but I roughly have a path, but yeah, short stories are a little bit different. Um, I'm doing a master of creative writing at the moment. And a lot of the writing, um, is short stories just because of the timeframes, you know, you have like six or seven weeks on a module and to do an assignment, you have to have like a 2000 word product at the end of it. So that's been quite interesting. I've found that I work better under pressure as well. um So I get told you need to give us a horror story in six weeks time. um And so I do it.
00:18:50
Speaker
Okay. So are is that like your choice to do horror or is that, is the course kind of pushing you to do different genres? Different genres. Um, so I picked out horror because it stood out as the one thing that I did not want to do. Um, so I chose the course and there there was a few different, so I'm doing it by, um, distance learning. Um, just because of, you know, family circumstances, I can't get to uni every day. um And so there was three or four to choose from. And I went with Edith Cowan because a lot of their modules were focusing on sort of writing for the planet. It was a lot about environmental writing, which I'm quite interested in. um But then um the horror genre was was in there too. And I don't read a lot of horror. It's probably the one genre I don't engage with a lot. um Yeah. and And to be honest, I'm not quite sure why that is, um because when I started actually studying it, I really enjoyed it. um Oh, yeah. It's i's probably not something else I'll do a lot of writing in, but definitely pulling some of the elements out of it. um i'm I'm finding that the the current thing I'm working on has got ah a few little horror elements in there.
00:20:05
Speaker
um So, yeah, it's it's been it's been an education. Yeah, I mean, I think that's great. I think, I think people should all all writers should try just for like experimental reasons to just do like a short story and different in different genres that they would never normally write just to kind of see, or at least read yeah outside of you know the genres that they're so used to. Yeah. So you can learn about the difference and the real strengths. I imagine with horror, you're like with horror, there's so much like um the pacing is so important of like the ups and the downs when it's slow, when it's fast yeah like and like all that sort of stuff. Yeah.
00:20:39
Speaker
And sort of engage in the senses quite a lot. um Yeah. So that was that was really intriguing. um And I hadn't, because I hadn't engaged with that genre, I'd kind of not understood, you know, why i was scared by something. And so that was really, it was it was quite a lot of psychological things.
00:20:58
Speaker
sort of thought goes into horror writing too. um So yeah, it was, it was fun. I actually did enjoy doing it. um So yeah, I would, I would also recommend doing something, as you say, just getting out of your comfort zone as well.
00:21:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much, so even if you always write in one genre, there's so much to learn from the other genres that you can bring into that and kind of enhance what you what you already write. Yes, for sure. Speaking of other genres, I saw on your sub stack that you said that you are going to start publishing a serialized fantasy novel. Is that something that you're currently working on?
00:21:34
Speaker
Yes. So that is an interesting one. um That was, um i think the... sec it was, it was the second long form that i wrote second novel that I wrote and it got picked up by an indie publisher back in 2003.
00:21:52
Speaker
And just for various reasons, the publication date just kept getting pushed back and pushed back and pushed back. And so I decided, um at the end of last year to take the rights back, um, cause it was out of contract and, I've been sitting with that one for a while and trying to decide what I want to do with it. And I would like to to give it go as a serial. i'm I'm really intrigued by this. It feels like it's it's kind of getting a bit of a resurgence, serialized fiction. Um, yes and I'm really keen to do it. And naively I thought I'll just, you know, publish a chapter each week. Um, I haven't done a bit more research. Um, that that's not how this works. Um, and so it's, it's really, I guess it's a bit of a creative challenge for me to, to kind of take something that is a complete story, but look at it through a different lens and just think, okay, how do I tell this story? So it is more,
00:22:50
Speaker
it's more paced for serialized fiction. um So yes. Right. Okay. Yes. That's that's the plan for that one. So you're, you're having to re-edit it so that it works more episodically as opposed to it's how a book yeah works. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of saying it more as, you know, it's a TV show rather than a film. Yes.
00:23:08
Speaker
Um, so I'm trying to, you know, build that in us and some of the chapters kind of naturally feel as if they've got a bit of a cliffhanger. Um, yeah but probably not all of them. Um, and some of it, um, some of the chapters are just, uh,
00:23:23
Speaker
are just too short um so you know there's there's like there's a lot there's I do a lot of flashbacks um so there's a few flashbacks in this one um and I'm just trying to figure out to the pacing of that so um yeah there's just a few little technical things to play with but again it's it's interesting and it's just a nice new challenge as well Okay. Yeah, that sounds great. um I'm excited to see how that, how that comes
Reading While Writing: Benefits and Risks
00:23:48
Speaker
out. We have reached the point in the episode where i ask you, Donna, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, I would hope to have the book that I currently have on my bedside table because i am I am one of those people that cannot, I can't not finish a book. If I start a book, I have to finish it. um And so I would want to have that book with me. And at the moment, I've got The Invisible Life of Adi LaRue by V.A. Schwab.
00:24:24
Speaker
um So it's it's one that I've had on my um my to be read list for for quite some time. And it's been recommended to me um by a few people who are um mentoring me through the next book that I'm working on.
00:24:41
Speaker
um As it's a sort of comp title, I think. um So I'm quite interested to read it um and and see. And and the reviews seem to be amazing for it I've told a few people that I've literally just picked it up. um And so many people said, that's my favorite book. um So I'm intrigued now. So I would want this with me so I can i can find out what happens.
00:25:02
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, Schwab is a great body of work and lots of many, many, many, many great, great books. Um, but that's cool. ah you So that's interesting. Are you this the sort of writer who, whilst you're writing something, you're, you're, you kind of are happy to read within that genre?
00:25:19
Speaker
For sure. Um, it it was something actually I learned on the 90 day novel course. Um, it's just to absorb yourself in, in the genre. um okay Um, it's to, I guess it's kind of It's to emulate, I guess, what you're seeing, but also to look at what you want to do differently. um And so that is something that I do tend to do. um It's also something I found that's been mirrored in the in the masters. So.
00:25:47
Speaker
we're looking at different genres. Um, and obviously there's, there's quite a big reading component to that. Um, and it does help you understand, um, some of the techniques. Um, and you know, so yeah, it's something that I do tend to do.
00:25:59
Speaker
I sometimes mix it up though. Um, and I'll just throw something in there. Um, that is just something I've read before. Um, it's just sometimes my brain just needs to have a bit of a change of gear.
00:26:12
Speaker
Um, so I do that. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Cause I've had to find some authors who kind of go the other way and that they'll say like, I can't read, I have to read out of genre or read nonfiction or something whilst I'm drafting or whilst, whilst they're editing, like, you know, every author is different. It'll be different times and different things affect them. Cause I think some, sometimes the worry is that you're absorbing too much and then now you're just regurgitating someone else's story. Yeah, I could say that. I could say that. i'm I'm quite a contrary person though. So I think if anything, I would be more kind of, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that at all. I'm not going to sound like this person. So maybe, maybe you need to be a contrarian to to have that approach.
00:26:51
Speaker
and Yeah, I totally get what you mean though by it's like, it's not just, you know, being part of that genre and seeing how it fits into the market. You also, you'll read something and be like, oh, that's cool. But that's absolutely not how I would have written that.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah, that can help. The contrarian part of you comes out.
00:27:08
Speaker
Um, up next, we're going to chat a bit more about the the prize and everything that's happening with sheep's clothes, clothing, kind of going forwards, the publishing side of things. Uh, and then I wanted to touch a bit on your experiences that we, we, we likely touched on earlier with your self publishing. I'd love to like talk a bit more about what you, what you did and how that all went to to plan.
00:27:28
Speaker
That will all be available in the extended episode, uh, which everyone listening can find at patreon.com forward slash right and wrong. You know, I'd rather wait until I've got something um new um and looking for a home for it. And then we'll see what happens.
00:27:45
Speaker
Okay. Sounds good. Sounds, sounds very thoughtful and methodical. Uh, so, uh, yeah, I think you're on the right, the right track with something like that. um that brings us to the, to the end of the episode. Thank you so much, Donna, for coming on the podcast and chatting with me and telling us all about your, uh, your, your book that you won the Libero prize with sheep's clothing, as well as kind of your journey and, you know, your adventures in self-publishing and everything that's been happening with you. It's been so interesting chatting with you.
00:28:11
Speaker
Thanks for having me, Jamie. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Donna is doing, you can find her on Instagram and Substack at Brood Writing. Her website is broodwriting.com. And if you go to the librero.com right now, the website, there's a banner across the top ah where you can click and just instantly but be put in the first, um I think it's 20 or so pages of Donna's novel, Sheep's Clothing, and you can read that all right there right now um to support this podcast like follow and subscribe join the patreon for ad free extended episodes and check out my other podcast the chosen ones and other tropes thanks again to donna and thanks to everyone listening we will catch you on the next episode