Transcript
Nate Day: Welcome to Adaptation, the Book to Movie podcast. I'm Nate.
Chris: And I'm Chris.
Nate Day: And today we've got a doozy, another doozy. We are talking about Thomas Harris's, correct, The Silence of the Lambs and its film adaptation by Jonathan Demme.
Chris: Correct.
Nate Day: And real spooky stuff, obviously. I don't know if we really need a content warning up front because it's so famous, but... uh proceed with caution i suppose but before we talk about all that messed up stuff how you doing chris
Chris: Yeah, I am wonderful.
Chris: what about you with how are you Nate day.
Nate Day: i'm doing I'm doing well.
Nate Day: What have you been reading?
Chris: Yes, I just finished such a cool... Oh gosh, I thought I had it by so I could show you. Nuts. You were there when I purchased it in Omaha.
Nate Day: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Chris: This was the second I told you about the first one. Oh my gosh, that I've forgotten entirely. Holy crap, doesn't matter. That was weeks ago. Called Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil.
Nate Day: Oh, I do remember you picking it up and talking to the owner about it.
Chris: Yeah, I had never heard of that title. I think this was the third or fourth book by Victoria Schwab, V.E. Schwab, that I've read. And they just had a signed copy.
Chris: And I was like, her writing is fantastic. I love finding a signed copy.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: I'm buying it. Incredible book. Yeah.
Nate Day: yeah
Chris: literally exactly as good as that lady presented it. I'm not going to spoil any because it's a cool tale and a relatively recent, honestly, any of her writing, you can get your hands on if you're even vaguely into, not even high fantasy.
Chris: It's really, i think her, Oh, she wrote, uh, invisible life of Addie LaRue. I think that's probably one of her most famous
Nate Day: OK, yeah, that sounds familiar.
Chris: It's like it's very, very bound in reality and then just some slight twists, but combined with phenomenal writing characters that you fall in love with.
Nate Day: OK.
Chris: It's just incredible. I read like a hundred. pay I just took the two train literally from its end home. I was on the subway for four hours today and just powered through like the last 200 pages and loved it.
Nate Day: oh
Chris: It was glorious.
Nate Day: Good, good, great.
Chris: What about you been watching stuff?
Nate Day: I've been watching stuff, but I've been reading stuff too. Have you seen my Goodreads updates?
Chris: What?
Nate Day: Yeah, I'm trying to, you well, maybe I didn't do it.
Chris: no
Nate Day: Let me check.
Chris: Who taught you to read?
Nate Day: I don't even know who taught me to read. i don't even know how to use this app, so it's probably not on here. How do you look at your own page?
Chris: That's down at the bottom. It'll say my books. That is Nate.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: That's exactly how I feel every time I open Letterboxd. So I understand your pain.
Nate Day: i I know. I don't, like, yeah, I don't check this. app frequently enough. But I read a book called Silver Nitrate by Silvia Moreno-Garcia, who did Mexican Gothic, I believe is her big one.
Chris: Oh, I did see that on there. Mexican Gothic. Yes.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: A friend of mine, Amber, who I was hoping would be able to be on this podcast because she's a huge Silence of the Lambs fan, is a big fan of I think sylvia moreano goth but
Chris: Oh,
Nate Day: Silvia Moreno-Garcia, but particularly Mexican Gothic. She lent me that book because it's about people that work in the film industry.
Chris: cool.
Nate Day: So kind of cool. And now I'm reading a play by Melvin Van Peebles, bit by bit, that's actually really fun.
Chris: Oh my gosh.
Nate Day: And I might have to bring it to let you borrow it because it's really goofy and just and I love it.
Chris: You be careful. You start reading enough, you're going to collapse the premise of this podcast.
Nate Day: I know.
Chris: Oh.
Nate Day: I know.
Chris: Oh.
Nate Day: But look, if there's a movie version, I will always prefer the movie. but Maybe not always, but that's what I'll reach for first. But as far as movies that I've seen, just a couple because I've been doing a lot of Odyssey rewatches and the Invite rewatches because I love them both so much.
Nate Day: I saw a movie called I Want Your Sex. Have you seen ads for this? Olivia Wilde is a dominatrix type lady.
Chris: What? Sounds awesome.
Nate Day: Chris immediately Googling. It's, yeah, there were a lot of like teenage boy dreams come true on screen in that movie.
Nate Day: It was pretty funny, pretty interesting.
Chris: Charlie XCX was in it?
Nate Day: Oh, yeah, actually she was a little bit. It's a really small role.
Chris: And Johnny Knoxville?
Nate Day: I wondered if that was Johnny Knoxville.
Chris: What is this?
Nate Day: Yeah, it is bizarre. The guy that makes that movie, Gregg Araki, is a wacky, wacky dude. Wow, I can't believe that was actually Johnny Knoxville.
Nate Day: That's it's rocking my world a little bit.
Chris: is
Nate Day: Anyway.
Chris: He's using Jackass 4.5 as a catapult to a new career.
Nate Day: yeah Yeah, pretty much.
Chris: Did you watch that? You said you watched that, right?
Nate Day: I watched the latest Jackass movie, yeah.
Chris: I watched it last week. It was exactly as fun as I hoped.
Nate Day: Oh, did you?
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, silly and nasty, really gross, but a lot of a lot of poop stuff in that one.
Chris: Yeah, super gross. Very, very gross.
Nate Day: But the other movie I saw was Spider-Man Brand New Day, and I'm really happy to report that I loved it. thought it was really, really good.
Chris: Wow.
Nate Day: Yeah, good, really good movie.
Chris: are you I don't know that we've ever discussed that in depth. Are you a Spider-Man franchise guy?
Nate Day: Sure. I mean, I think I probably like him more than, i don't know, any any other superhero, I guess.
Chris: Okay.
Chris: That was the lukewarmest.
Nate Day: well like I don't consider like, I'm not like a Spider-Man truther or anything like that, but I am like, I was more, I was excited for this one, even though I don't like most of the Marvel movies coming out right now.
Chris: Okay.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: Like Spider-Man usually
Nate Day: does it for me. I like Tom Holland and of course I love Zendaya, so not a lot to complain about, but, but on top of that, I thought the movie was really good and fun.
Chris: Of course.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: So yeah.
Chris: that's That's good to know.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Because I've been thinking about since we started the drama and didn't finish it, Blair suggested. It's like Zendaya alternative. I don't know why Spider-Man came up. But yeah, we're thinking about it.
Nate Day: Oh yeah. Well, yeah, it's, it's a good one. it it even got me teared up a few times. Yeah, it's good.
Chris: Wow.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: He's like, he's like fucked up Spider-Man. That's sad.
Chris: Oh, I didn't know that. I know nothing about it.
Nate Day: Yeah. He's having a, he's having a really hard time and it makes me sad.
Chris: I don't think I've seen a Spider-Man since Willem Dafoe was the Grinch. Not the Grinch. Green guy. Green Goblin. Oh my gosh. It's in the name. Since Willem Dafoe was the Green Goblin.
Nate Day: frenchch Oh my God. That's incredible. That might be your best poll quote yet.
Chris: that's is that's that's that's not even a That's not even a lack of movie literacy. That was just my brain thought, big green man. And logically...
Nate Day: I mean, I guess I see the visual comparison, but that's about it. Anyway, that's the whole episode. Thanks for.
Chris: that's it. See you next week when we talk about more nothing.
Nate Day: Anyway,
Chris: Would you like to hear about the book, The Silence of the Lambs?
Nate Day: I would.
Chris: Yes, you would.
Nate Day: i would. Yes, please. Yeah.
Chris: Great.
Nate Day: Thank you.
Chris: Okay. I've gone, I feel like I'm saying this a lot. At a certain point, it's no longer a new direction. It's just the direction I'm going. I'm for for anticipation of time it will take for us to discuss the meaty, oh, yucky.
Chris: dense, we'll say dense and not meaty content.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I am not going super far into the author himself. Okay.
Nate Day: Okay, great. Yeah.
Chris: Okay. As you said, Thomas Harris published the book Silence of the Lambs in 1988. I want to know if you hear the same questions that I do about this. Okay.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: So this is kind of twofold. One, i immediately hear surprise that this was a book. Everybody knows the movie. Everybody knows the movie.
Nate Day: Oh, yeah, sure.
Chris: i I hear a lot of surprise that it was based on the book.
Nate Day: OK, yeah.
Chris: And then even amongst those who are aware of this, that it's a sequel.
Nate Day: Yeah, that one surprised me. i bet you in the 80s and ninety s everyone knew it was a book.
Nate Day: But I do nowadays sort of hear people be surprised about that. But everybody is surprised that it's the I believe it's the second in the series, right?
Chris: Correct. Yes.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yep. Red dragon and then silence of the lambs Have you seen red dragon?
Nate Day: I have seen an adaptation of it, not the Anthony Hopkins one that was produced as a sequel prequel to this one.
Chris: Oh, you, did you see the one I think, isn't Ralph Fiennes the big crazy guy?
Nate Day: What big crazy guy, Hannibal Lecter? Oh, the guy that is committing crimes.
Chris: No, the one with the dragon tattoo.
Nate Day: I believe he is, but the one I watched is a little bit older.
Chris: Oh.
Nate Day: and obviously had a different cast entirely.
Chris: Okay, okay, okay.
Nate Day: But i I do believe Ralph Fiennes is in the...
Chris: I didn't know the remote.
Nate Day: Did Brett Ratner do that one or somebody, some creepo like that?
Chris: I feel it's abundantly clear that I don't know the answer to that question.
Nate Day: i know, I think I'm talking to myself a little bit here. Anyway, go ahead.
Chris: Well, I want to...
Nate Day: Yeah, sequel and based on a book.
Chris: I wanted this to be my first discussion question, but obviously we're not going to spend a lot of time on Red Dragon, so I could not help putting a question right at the top here.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: Why is Silence of the Lambs so much more known than Red Dragon? why Why is this sequel exploded and so many people don't even know it's a sequel?
Nate Day: My theory, i have not, have you read Red Dragon?
Chris: I have not. I've seen it. I've not read it.
Nate Day: My theory based on the movie that I've seen, having read neither of the books, I think that Red Dragon is a little more convoluted and almost plays as a little bit more of a standard procedural in some ways because the cop has a pre-existing relationship with Hannibal Lecter, right?
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: It's the same cop that locked him up.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: And so i I think that it, I don't know, it it just felt very bizarre to me. Like, following Clarice Starling allows you to learn about Hannibal Lecter alongside her.
Nate Day: And so I think it makes for sort of a better story than getting dropped into what is already part two, sort of, of, you know, the chronicle of Hannibal Lecter, I guess.
Chris: Yes.
Chris: Just okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I'll buy that. it It definitely was. Well, I mean, one may argue virtually all thrillers, serial killer movies along this vein are more straightforward. This is quite unique.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And this was fascinating to hear. I don't know if you've heard this backstory yet. I found there was a little information about sort of what made this so unique. Okay.
Nate Day: OK.
Chris: So Thomas Harris was a reporter working in Texas, I believe. And he was asked, I think by a magazine to go down to Monterey, Mexico to interview Dykes Askew Simmons. You ever heard of him?
Nate Day: Oh, no, I thought you were saying a word you weren't supposed to say. No, I have not heard of.
Chris: Nope, that's his that's his given first name. Also, that would have been a crazy sentence. No, this...
Nate Day: why it took me by surprise.
Nate Day: You can rewind the tape to see me jump out of my skin.
Nate Day: who
Nate Day: yeah
Chris: the The book copy that I got had a 25th anniversary introduction by Harris talking about this happening. And so he goes down there
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: and it's actually very mirrored in a lot of ways Like this is a book about a serial killer, right? Buffalo Bill.
Nate Day: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chris: And it's also entirely not a book about a serial, about that serial killer, right?
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: and And like therein lies the brilliance, right?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: So he talks about this interview and intentionally or not, I mean, this was a very straightforward sort of author's note anniversary introduction. So i I want to say it almost wasn't deliberate, but it's basically the exact same situation. He's hired to go down there and interview this guy. And he describes it very well. It's very off-putting.
Chris: The guy like wears sunglasses for the entire interview and he's leaving and he's talking to like the prison doctor and the doctor's kind of dissecting dissecting this
Nate Day: o
Chris: interaction they had and tells him, oh, make sure you don't wear sunglasses because he'll be able to see his reflection. And he really doesn't like how he looks. He had like a facial disfigurement, I think.
Chris: And he's Harris now is walking away from this discussion with the doctor, you know, really intrigued and weirded out to feelings you feel often throughout this book he wrote.
Nate Day: Okay.
Nate Day: Always, yeah.
Chris: And one of the guards goes, hey, you were talking to that guy. He refers to him in this retelling as Dr. Salazar. And he specifies later that the guy was released and went back to some remote village like to go serve the poor for free or something. So he deliberately changed his name to leave him alone.
Chris: But the guard was like, oh yeah, that's just another inmate.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: That guy's insane.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: And so you see the puzzle pieces.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Chris: Right? oh it was, it it it gave this tale that again, as we've alluded to, everybody knows, a completely new life for me.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, that's kind of that's wacky.
Chris: and And so both, isn't that great? I mean, just just this this wild story and the guy goes, I'm going to use this and write, I think, inarguably, one of the most well-known titles of the 20th century.
Nate Day: Yeah. if
Nate Day: Oh, yeah, 100%.
Chris: everybody knows what this was, you know, obviously, I'm sure you're going to talk about Anthony Hopkins brilliance and everything like that.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: But like, everyone knows this. And part of it is that that writing was so unique. So you know, a story about a person, but not about a person, but also not, not about that.
Chris: But I mean, we learn as much about Starling as I just, incredible.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. Good.
Chris: on On that note, how much do we need to go into the plot? I feel like we can kind of, we we all know what happens in this story. Correct.
Nate Day: Yeah, I would say that I believe she's an FBI trainee, consults with Hannibal Lecter because he is imprisoned and basically the only person smart enough to help her track down the serial serial killer called Buffalo Bill.
Chris: Correct.
Chris: Yes, and they, I mean, it's never quite revealed. I do think, as I often, if not always think, Forrest Gump aside, of course, that the book is able to put the pieces together more eloquently than the movie, you know, because you don't have that visual component.
Nate Day: Sure. Yeah.
Chris: She more or less stumbles into this.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: She's a trainee.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: Crawford asks her to go down. They're trying to map out sort of the mind of the serial killer and they've interviewed like 33 or something who are incarcerated and the 34th the elusive one who won't answer their questions is lector and he basically more or less says we know he's going to refuse you as well uh we just have to essentially be able to put on the paperwork that we tried
Nate Day: Hmm.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I don't remember. i haven't seen the movie in ages. I don't remember if this was part of the movie, the, absolute dick face, the guy running the, the ward where Lecter is kept Chilton.
Nate Day: Oh, yeah.
Chris: is that correct?
Chris: Chilton.
Nate Day: me look.
Chris: Shifton. I wrote it down.
Nate Day: I know who you're talking about.
Chris: in far Yes. Chilton. Chilton.
Nate Day: Chilton.
Chris: Oh yeah.
Nate Day: Okay. Yeah.
Chris: Uh, yes. Chilton. This is the part I don't remember if it's in the book or not, but or in the movie. It was so good in the book. Chilton attempted to give Lecter the like questionnaire himself.
Chris: And Lecter not only doesn't answer the questions, but turns around and in the book, he's very known for continuing to write and submit articles to scholarly journals and continue to be published while incarcerated.
Nate Day: Wow. While in jail?
Chris: is that Is that similar? is that Do they skate over that? OK.
Nate Day: Yeah, that's not a part of the movie. I forget exactly why Clarice is brought in, but it's something similar where it's like, we've tried a lot of people and she's kind of our last option. It might have something to do with her being one of the only women training at Quantico.
Nate Day: I forget the exact detail, but it's that it's not like the book.
Chris: Yeah, they well, I mean, that's what Chilton accuses her of. They brought in, you know, essentially this cute girl to get him to talk. And that is not at all the case. Crawford asks her basically because she's a trainee, so she's available and he doesn't have anyone else who can go.
Nate Day: That might be what it is. Yeah. In the movie.
Chris: And he i mean, it's it's great for a book. I could see it not being awesome on film. But Chilton tried to do this previously. And Lecter turns it around and then publishes an article about like how incompetent this guy is and just undermines him.
Nate Day: Yeah, that's funny.
Chris: And we find out. much later in the story when he's talking to Clarice and he's like, you know, you should check into it. Jilton actually doesn't have any medical degrees.
Chris: He's just been lying about this. Like, uh, so good.
Nate Day: Oh, that guy sucks.
Chris: So good. So good. yeah, no, we, we all know everything that happened. What, what I created is more so,
Chris: What I titled it is, in all caps, some parts that stuck with, surprised, or frustrated me.
Nate Day: Oh, OK, great.
Chris: Okay? Because, again, I think the plot, they're trying to find this guy, Lecter's feeding her breadcrumbs. You are, I'm i'm not sure... I'm not sure the entire cause of this, but if I remember correctly, I think this is clear in the movie as well.
Chris: You are immediately wary and off put by his interest in Clarice, but it's not entirely clear why.
Nate Day: Yes, 100%. That's exactly how it is.
Chris: you know, besides him, like the guy in the, what was his name? The guy in the cell next to him, uh, First says, i can smell your c*nt as she walks in, and then jerks off and throws it at her as she tries to leave, which Lecter takes offense at and convinces him to kill himself.
Nate Day: Oh. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: That's right. That's so
Chris: And you're there's just this immediate off putting sense where you're like, why are you so intrigued, like she has to trade these bits of info about her past to get, I mean, so unsettling.
Nate Day: Yeah. Right.
Chris: And that's not even the weird dude wearing people's skin is clothes.
Nate Day: No.
Chris: but Like just brilliant.
Nate Day: I don't know.
Chris: And so many of these things, I think what I kept thinking about that was remarkable was so many of these literary devices, just the way this plot is put together. It could become so corny, so derivative so quickly, and it doesn't.
Nate Day: Right, right.
Chris: Right.
Nate Day: 100%.
Chris: You're just in and not in the way i I wrote this down later, too.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. yeah
Chris: It's not in the same way like Jurassic Park. You were also on edge the whole time.
Nate Day: yeah
Chris: And I think I mean, tell me if you got a different feeling. I think the difference is Jurassic Park. You know why you're on edge. I would also be on edge if it literal T-Rex was chasing me.
Nate Day: yeah right
Chris: And i so I suppose I would also be on edge if someone asked me to talk to a serial killer, but it's more it's more of an undercurrent in this case.
Nate Day: Yeah, it's like atmospheric instead of, you know, tangible.
Chris: Yes, yes, that's a great way to put it. Yeah, just brilliant, just brilliant. Some thoughts that I had. Oh.
Chris: oh The so she goes in the orderly is there who's like super chill throughout the whole thing. I don't know if this is the same in the movie when she goes the first time the orderly is sitting there reading sense and sensibility.
Nate Day: Oh, if that's in the movie, I didn't catch it. That's crazy.
Chris: Okay.
Chris: Which we're going to discuss later.
Nate Day: That character, he's got one like one or two lines where he's basically telling her to like to you know, watch your sex or whatever. He's so happy and like jovial.
Nate Day: I'm always like, what is going on with this guy?
Chris: Oh.
Nate Day: Because he's not like he likes being around creepy people. He's just like very warm and cuddly for someone in his job. it
Chris: Uh-huh.
Nate Day: i notice that every time I watch the movie.
Chris: He's certainly like the character you're most on board with. I mean, obviously, no problems with Crawford or Starling, but...
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Yeah, such a such's a cool, very side character.
Nate Day: That is funny. Yeah.
Chris: Obviously, every part about Buffalo Bill is wild and disturbing.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: But for some reason, even in book form, Lecter's description, just so nonchalant, he wants a vest with tits on it, was very jarring.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Does he?
Nate Day: That's a lot.
Chris: i have no idea if he says that in the movie. Yeah, it's... And you know it's coming, and you know it's true, and it's still jarring.
Nate Day: I don't know. Yeah.
Nate Day: I know. i don't believe they say that. But so much of what Hannibal Lecter says about Buffalo Bill is so unsettling that it's it's, I think your body almost kind of shuts out some of the detail because it doesn't want to hear it, you know?
Chris: Yes.
Chris: Yes. Well, it's it's this... ab so Unsettling is the only word I can come up with also. This absolutely unsettling mix of... I want to say admiration.
Chris: Certainly from Lecter for Buffalo Bill.
Nate Day: For who?
Nate Day: Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris: so Certainly... this like kudos lauding what he's doing.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Like a little bit of a neutral third party observer just eating their popcorn and watching everything burn. out I mean, a
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: a poignant, a well-written, well-executed, and absolutely horrific mix.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah.
Chris: The system itself, incredibly frustrating to me, and I don't recall feeling this way from the movie, but the book, it's just right in your face and so annoying.
Nate Day: The system?
Chris: From like Chilton trying to stop her from coming in, really having to circumnavigate stuff, just everything Starling and Crawford have to do when their entire goal is to stop a serial killer.
Nate Day: Yeah. Is, oh.
Chris: And they're just getting stopped at one turn after another
Nate Day: Wow, that's weird. Yeah, that's not how the movie is at all.
Chris: Okay, I was curious. I don't remember it from the movie. Yeah, in the book, it's it's right in your face. I mean, Chilton running this ward is, he feels like slighted by Lecter, undermined that they sent in this trainee, not even a full agent, rebuffed because, of course, he tries to hit on her.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: it's He's just like the face of toxic masculinity before we had that word in the zeitgeist.
Nate Day: Right.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: and like messes everything up.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: He's literally just scheming for power, which results in a serial killer being let loose.
Nate Day: Right. Yeah.
Chris: Just obscene.
Nate Day: Chilton's, he's not huge in the movie at all.
Chris: Okay, okay.
Nate Day: So a lot of that is not present, but, but he is a, well, little he is in the movie.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: He's a slime ball.
Chris: Okay, so yeah it comes across anyway.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: right. I mean, that that, again, you know, for me in these tales, I'm like, this is not, this is a, this is a B plot and it's still annoying me.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Like, why am I so upset?
Nate Day: right
Chris: But the title of the book, so fascinating.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm glad you brought this up.
Chris: Yeah. Do they go like full bore again? I saw the movie so long ago. i could just not be remembering, but do they go full bore into her personal history while she's talking to Lecter and dig into this?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: okay
Nate Day: I don't know about full bore, but we do get the story from her childhood about lambs.
Chris: yeah yeah living living on a god they had a word for a slaughter farm you know retired animals being turned to glue and she hears all of the lambs going crazy because they're being slaughtered and that's when she realizes oh they're gonna kill this horse i love so she sneaks away with it and i mean i have to imagine they left this in
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: Right. Yeah.
Chris: Lector asks her, do you think the lambs will be silent if you catch Buffalo Bill? Because it's sort of this recurring thought for her. She can't get that scene out of her head.
Nate Day: Right. ripe
Chris: And all I could think when he asked that, and I don't know if this was the author's intended implication, but is this, like, does he relate so intimately to Starling?
Chris: Does he want to hear all this backstory of her? Because he is also somewhere in this person who eats other persons, a trying find trying to find what will make the lambs be silent for him.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: I think, yeah, that's, that's been my reading when you said that it's not very clear why he sort of picks on Clarice like he does.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: My, my read has always been that he could spot like another traumatized person from mile away. So when she walked in, he knew that he had her on the line, you know, and then just drug it out because he likes to play games.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Chris: Yes, yes. And that was, you know, that's a through line throughout and fantastic morbidly fantastic, but fantastic nonetheless.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay. Yeah, I, that... I mean, that one line, it's it's so abundantly clear why it's the name, right?
Nate Day: Yeah. Agreed. Yep.
Chris: And then I know that the movie ends wildly differently, but in the book, this is just a letter that he sends her after he's gone on the run.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: Yeah. And he says, I have no intention to visit you. He's like tied up a couple of loose ends. So her and Crawford are super worried that he's going to come back for him. And he sends her a letter and says, i have no intention to visit you.
Chris: He's gone like to St. Louis, somewhere in the Midwest, like to get plastic surgery and change himself and get a passport and leave the country.
Nate Day: Oh, OK.
Chris: And he and he he sends this to her and he says, will you let me know if the lambs ever stop screaming?
Nate Day: It's
Chris: So good. So good.
Nate Day: creepy.
Chris: e Honestly, maybe a hot take. I think it's better than the movie ending, but that's no one's asking me.
Nate Day: Wow.
Chris: it It feels like it's really, it it sounds on paper. The book was on paper. It sounds like it should be a less satisfying ending, but you, because throughout you cannot help And I think this is perhaps part of the appeal to this absolutely off the wall movie.
Chris: You very much develop empathy for him. You know.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm.
Chris: And so this kind of handshake. Yeah, they were idiots. You told them, don't move me to Tennessee. They did. i got out.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Chris: I'm not gonna come kill you, like shake hands. Almost certainly gonna go keep eating people, but like, I don't know, I'll do it in Spain. Like, can we be chill? there Yeah, it's it's wild.
Chris: It's wild.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And then clearly still itching him, which is on its surface and well below the surface, this immediate juxtaposition to the character that we've come to know.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: So brilliant, smartest person in the room. No one can get him. And this is the just the the tiniest sniff of a vulnerability that he's revealed only to her.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.
Nate Day: Yeah. it is Narratively, it is really a smart.
Chris: Yes, yes, yes. This one is really more just a question for you. I don't remember at all how much the details with Crawford and his wife are in the movie. Does that play a central role?
Nate Day: No. I don't know anything about that lady.
Chris: Okay. Okay. Okay. throughout Throughout the book, his wife is dying. She essentially is in in hospice, but at their home.
Chris: And so that's this, they're very much this added sense of strain and stress on him trying to be like the field handler for this trainee that he sent out and shouldn't have.
Chris: It just cranks up the drama for the book.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. Clever. Yeah.
Chris: I could see why they would omit it from the movie. So that's not in the movie at all.
Nate Day: Yeah. No, I don't think he even mentions it.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: A wife.
Chris: Okay, interesting. Jame Gumb
Nate Day: I know.
Chris: Okay, that's that's all I wrote. What?
Nate Day: Yeah. Silly name.
Chris: Oh, the hospital left the S off James.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: and And now he kills people and wears their skin.
Nate Day: Well, we all have bad days.
Chris: Yeah, I'm gonna argue I might too if my name was Jame Gumb
Nate Day: Gumb with a B.
Chris: That was upsetting. hated that.
Nate Day: know. I had to, you know, I i watch with subtitles, right?
Chris: Uh-huh.
Nate Day: So I had to pause it and go and look on the book's Wikipedia page to make sure that it was actually spelled that way because I was like, that is stupid.
Chris: So dumb. So dumb.
Nate Day: and
Chris: I don't... I... As I often say, maybe I'm just too dense, but that part, I did not understand...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: what this added to the plot besides you being like, wow, that guy sucks, like before he kills people.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: I don't know, just wild.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay, okay, my my last one here. It's very, very subtle. This is perhaps the silliest one that I could point out, or maybe the most profound. We'll see how it comes out.
Nate Day: Oh, okay.
Chris: So he again, Chilton is just trying to gain like political leverage to climb. i don't know the corporate ladder. i don't know how that works.
Nate Day: I guess, yeah.
Chris: He overhears Starling trying to offer Lecter a deal for information to get him out. Reveals to Lecter that she has no authority, has no deal, offers him a different deal, busts him out, gets him to this cell in Tennessee where they do not have the correct security procedures.
Chris: And they they give him, like, good food.
Nate Day: Mm-hmm.
Chris: And he's always, like... they The music requests, there's always sort of this implication throughout that he's this. I don't know, a high society socialite in captivity, right?
Nate Day: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chris: And so he's offered the option for what music he wants. And he asked very specifically for Glenn Gould's recording of the Goldberg variations.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: This is extraordinarily upsetting because I love that album and I listened to it probably once a month.
Nate Day: So you're a little embarrassed about sharing something with Hannibal Lecter?
Chris: with Hannibal Lecter? Yes, in fact, I am incredibly embarrassed.
Nate Day: It means that you've got great taste is what it means.
Chris: But, okay, cool. So I would also like human liver and Chianti.
Nate Day: Well, OK, not a literal taste.
Chris: What's the line? You said it.
Nate Day: I did say it. I did.
Chris: But the I think, and maybe I'm reading way too far into it, but here is my analysis of why Harris chose that exact recording or or along these lines. So,
Chris: I'm going argue it was deliberate. Maybe not. I think it's supposed to be this glimpse into his mind. So in case you're unfamiliar, which given your first reaction, I believe you may be.
Nate Day: Yes.
Chris: Okay. Glenn Gould, absolute piano master. And he was known.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: You need to look up one of these pictures. He was known for sitting at these comically tiny piano benches when he's playing at
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: almost like trying to become a part of the instrument. And these extraordinarily complex, famous for having all of these Bach fugues.
Nate Day: Hello.
Chris: Do you know what a fugue is?
Nate Day: I think I learned it a long time ago, but I need a reminder.
Chris: So, I mean, I would not expect you to. A part will play. And then that part will keep going and the original melody, the motif will be repeated in another voice.
Chris: And Bach wrote these insanely complex four part feuds and Gould famously had all of these things memorized, never any sheet music there, including the Goldberg variations.
Nate Day: okay.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And he's sitting there on this hilariously tiny bench right in the keyboard, in the piano. And these recordings were famous because he was so into the music.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: He'd be playing and you can hear him moaning along on the recordings.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: And like literally anyone else, the producer would be like, yo, dude, we're taking another crack at that. Stop moaning.
Nate Day: Right, right.
Chris: I think he physically could not. And he was so brilliant. These were published with it and he'll be playing and you can hear him. da da da da And he's going because that's how wrapped in it he is.
Nate Day: Oh, yeah.
Chris: And I think that's exactly why this was the choice that they gave. these
Nate Day: I bet you're right.
Chris: These facets where Lecter was so obsessed and engrossed, but with this magnificent, beautiful thing, you know?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Oh, I just went, I i stopped. I had to put it down.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: When I read that line, I was like, oh no.
Nate Day: Wow, that's a good find though.
Nate Day: That's really clever.
Chris: oh they're just spectacular and again it just kept it was these hints just enough that I was like is this like low key one of the best authors I've ever read and I mean i don't I had never heard of Thomas Harris before reading this
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Chris: it it definitely makes me want to dive into more of his material because it's just that's such a throw away right that recording could have been anything
Nate Day: Interesting.
Nate Day: Yeah. No kidding. Right. Yeah.
Chris: And, you know, for all I know, he heard it on the radio that morning and just needed a title to put in.
Nate Day: Yeah, that's true, I guess.
Chris: But there's there was so much power in that one statement.
Nate Day: Right. Yeah.
Chris: So there are my whimsical musings on the oddities, upturns, downturns in this radically insane book.
Nate Day: good Well, thank you for those very fun highlights. We are going to take a quick break and then we will dive into the movie.
Nate Day: Welcome back to Adaptation, the Book to Movie Podcast. Chris just gave us his list of both grievances and what would you call the opposite of a grievance?
Nate Day: Like a,
Chris: don't remember.
Nate Day: I don't know, congratulations for this Thomas Harris's book?
Chris: What did I call it?
Chris: I said things that surprised or frustrated me. So I don't think I have a good thesaurus entry for you here.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Chris: What is the opposite of a grievance?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Praise? oh
Nate Day: Yeah, kind of.
Chris: I guess. Sure.
Nate Day: Yeah, so now we're going to dive into the film, which was, of course, as Chris kind of alluded to, I think probably as has out outgrown its source material in terms of public awareness.
Chris: Undoubtedly so.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah. It was released in 1991. i I feel silly going through this list because it's so famous, but you know bear with me here.
Chris: I get exactly what you mean.
Nate Day: Stars Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins, directed by Jonathan Demme, who we've actually talked about on this podcast before because he also directed the film adaptation of Beloved.
Chris: Oh, oh my gosh. I would not have remembered that.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Sorry.
Nate Day: So he is sort of drawn to these sort of messy stories, and they're not all
Chris: Wow.
Nate Day: horror or or even dramas. The movie right before this that he did was Married to the Mob, which is a comedy starring Michelle Pfeiffer, and he tried really hard to get her to star in this movie. But she, like most of the other people that were approached to star in it, felt too spooked sort of.
Chris: I don't know if that was coming through on the recording. I just want to pause you.
Nate Day: It did a little bit actually.
Chris: Okay. Okay.
Nate Day: in the movie. So it's a little different. we don't You don't see that in at least the adaptation of Red Dragon that I'd seen. So I can see how this felt a lot creepier and a lot more uneasy for people that were trying to decide how they wanted the public to see them going forward.
Nate Day: But the people that did end up in the movie, particularly Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins, did so after reading the book because the script was not, or they agreed to be in the movie after reading the book because the script was not quite finished yet.
Nate Day: And that leads me to believe that you're right about all of these little details that really make this sort of a masterpiece story, right?
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: Like this Glenn Gould recording that you just mentioned.
Chris: Did you you didn't find any info?
Chris: I mean, that's such a fast turnaround from 88 91. You said right?
Nate Day: Yeah, I believe who somebody was a fan, it might have been Jonathan Demme was a fan of these books and was just pounding the pavement to get it made.
Chris: okay
Nate Day: Yeah, like I said, that it really aligns with his body of work. So I can see this definitely being a book that he would pick up off the shelf.
Nate Day: And there was no, you know, the the adaptation of Red Dragon that I'd seen is called Manhunter and is a few years older.
Nate Day: Oh, barely. came out in 86. And it wasn't a huge success at the time. So I can see how, you know, you could maybe watch that movie and and then read the book and feel like, okay, we've got an opportunity to, like, try again, basically, you know, and and level it up to...
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: something more iconic and it became obviously extremely iconic.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: The script is known for being whip smart, much like the book, kind of every single thing that you hear or see is is very important to like ultimately solving the crime, catching the serial killer Buffalo Bill.
Nate Day: And then its visual language as well, which I'm i'm going to circle back to later. And then, of course, really probably what it's best known for is its performances from Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins. Both are phenomenal. And Anthony Hopkins, of course, playing Hannibal Lecter,
Nate Day: sort of one of the first, you know, serial killers on film that was not portrayed visually and physically as as a monster, right?
Nate Day: He's like well-groomed and obviously well-mannered. He's got good taste in in food and music. He can hold a conversation really well. He's really smart. Usually serial killers, you know, think about like Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Nate Day: They've got a guy also wearing a skin mask because they're based on the same real life serial killer, actually. But yeah. you know, his he like looks all melty and nasty and he chases six kids around with a chainsaw, which, I mean, it makes for a great movie, but it's not exactly realistic if we're talking about serial killers.
Nate Day: So a lot of people were obviously really put off and and spooked, but kind of just shaken to their core by the fact that this movie made it look like your neighbor could be Hannibal Lecter, you know?
Chris: They are among us.
Nate Day: And then, yeah, and then on top of that, Anthony Hopkins was already a pretty prestigious actor at that point, too. and And most serial killers and villains, you know, famously, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. The woman they got to play the nurse was like their 15th choice because nobody wanted to be seen doing such horrible things on screen.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: it's it It was not popular at this time to play the villain, and that's sort of switched in movies now. So very interesting to see that this is sort of where some of that started.
Chris: I mean, those two are absolutely incredible.
Nate Day: thats Oh, yeah. And actually, Jodie Foster, I believe, had just won an Oscar before taking this role and then took it and won her second Oscar, which, you know, doesn't happen a ton that somebody gets back-to-back or close to back-to-back awards.
Chris: Jeez. Jeez.
Nate Day: So I think that really speaks to how much it resonated, these performances specifically, how much they elevated the material.
Chris: I would watch a whole movie that's just the two of them talking.
Nate Day: Well, there is a lot of that in this one. You could rewatch Silence of the Lambs.
Chris: yeah idea fair
Nate Day: The movie has come under fire a few times since it's released, particularly by the LGBT community because of the way it depicts gender identity and gender politics. And, you know, our our understanding of transgender identities has come a lot a or has made a lot of progress, I suppose, since...
Nate Day: This book was published even in 88, much less the years before when Harris was probably conceiving these ideas, right?
Chris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nate Day: Jonathan Demme's pushed back against some of those a little bit. my My personal feeling is that his arguments drift a little bit into like old white guy isn't listening territory. So I think i would just encourage people to kind of do their own research and and come away with their own opinions because I'm not here to tell anybody how to feel about gender politics.
Chris: I was actually, I'm curious if this, i because again, I clearly don't remember, and I don't i don't think it made the movie. I was surprised, I was first not surprised that it was a certainly on the surface, a ham-fisted explanation, the offering we receive, right, for why Buffalo Bill is
Nate Day: Mm-hmm.
Chris: killing people, basically.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: That's explanation. gross under explanation of what occurs in the text.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: But I was actually surprised for when it was written. they they ultimately get the info from Lecter anyway, so it's a little bit moot, but initially they are searching for clinics for people who have come and applied for operations and been declined.
Chris: And one of the clinics, the guy who runs it is very specific saying, whoa, you're looking for a murderer. No, I'm not giving you any information. The public already has this perception of trans individuals.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: And I will not let you vilify this person.
Nate Day: Oh, wow. That's cool. I think that sort of addresses the issue that the movie does not. That's not in the movie, that sequence.
Chris: Incredible.
Nate Day: they do say, so Lecter was the, I guess, psychologist or shrink or something for Buffalo Bill.
Chris: Huh?
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: And he does outright state, this man thinks he's transgender, but is not.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: And I think that's issue number one is that we have to like, let people identify themselves.
Chris: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
Nate Day: And then number two is that like, clearly we didn't have an understanding. Like if he was killing people to put on their skin, He probably like he probably was, you know, and and that's a pretty extreme reaction to like being not not.
Nate Day: I don't even like to say diagnosed, but, you know, being told that you're not.
Chris: Well, I felt like that, and that, that was like the crux of it, that he had gone in and been declined.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And that was, you know, in the book, that was the FBI's argument.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: They're saying like, no, no, we're talking about someone that you yourself already declined because he was being weird about it or whatever.
Nate Day: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. They don't get too much into it, which is one of the reasons I'm like, they're you know, you could have added just a line or two to, to kind of recenter this, but again, you know, the book was published in the late eighties.
Chris: Interesting.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: So we, we, like I said, we just have come so far since then.
Chris: I thought it would be way worse.
Nate Day: I'm sure certain people feel that it is.
Chris: Fair, fair. Yep. Yep.
Nate Day: Yeah, difficult. It's also difficult when you consider that Buffalo Bill is based on a real serial killer from like the 50s or something like that.
Chris: What is he? He's like Gacy, right?
Nate Day: Ed Gein is his name.
Chris: Oh, Ed Gein.
Chris: Yeah, yeah. Our Wisconsin boy.
Nate Day: So even, you know, we're talking about potential gender confusion even decades before that. And it's it's really complicated. I just am not educated enough to...
Nate Day: really pass the judgment on it. But anyway, the film goes on to be an incredible success, right? Both financially and critically. It's one of the few films ever to win the big five, quote unquote, big five at the Oscars, which is picture, director, screenplay, in this case, adapted screenplay, and then actor and actress for Foster and Hopkins.
Chris: In the same year?
Nate Day: but Yeah, you're only nominated in the year you're eligible.
Chris: How would I know that?
Nate Day: Well, you think Sinners is going to get a bunch of Oscars this year?
Chris: Kinda, yeah. Holy crap. So they won five Oscars in one year?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Goodness gracious. I mean, deserved, of course.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Wow.
Nate Day: Yeah. And it was actually nominated for two additional ones, Sound and Editing. Really well edited movie.
Chris: Jeez. Jeez.
Nate Day: Yeah. Sound, I don't really know what that's about, but whatever. They were throwing a Silence of the Lambs party. So yeah, one of the few to to win those big five.
Nate Day: It's not very common for that to happen. And I believe it's the only horror movie to date to win Best Picture.
Chris: I saw that as well.
Nate Day: we thought we would have a repeat maybe with with sinners actually, but didn't didn't quite pull it off.
Chris: That's crazy.
Nate Day: But obviously this is just existed in the public consciousness. It's like part of our American DNA at this point, probably beyond American really.
Chris: oh
Nate Day: So reading some of the sort of criticisms when people revisit it was really interesting. And there's been a lot of talk about how the movie almost doesn't feel as scary anymore because we've been so desensitized to images like that. You know, there was a maybe about 10 years or so ago, there was this huge true crime craze, right? Where people were just becoming obsessed with any kind of true crime, but especially serial killers and and sort of their
Nate Day: personas and methods and stuff started to become very public knowledge. And, you know, I've, I've got friends that are really interested in this and, and there are psychological reasons for like why it's interesting to some people and not so much to others.
Nate Day: I don't know them because i don't like serial killers. So, so I don't care to know, but, yeah, yeah, I know.
Chris: You heard here first, folks. Nate Day doesn't like serial killers.
Nate Day: Talk about hot take.
Chris: Well, we we kind of dipped into that pool a little bit with Agatha Christie. Like, humans love hearing about folks getting offed.
Nate Day: Yeah, those are a lot cozier, though. Yeah, they do. And this movie is actually seen as sort of a turning point in public interest in crime.
Chris: Okay.
Chris: Yep. Yep. Yep.
Nate Day: And it's also such a well put together crime, you know, like, like finding the, oh, they're not called butterflies.
Chris: The moths.
Nate Day: Yeah. The moths. Thank you.
Chris: Yep. The death's head moth.
Nate Day: Yeah. It's such a wild clue, but it's so good, you know, and, and like I said, it's well edited.
Chris: So good. Oh.
Nate Day: It's well paced. You, you solve the crime a,
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: Clarice does. So it's, I can totally see how this was the one that like hooked people and, and has kind of gone on to change how we perceive violence and crime. And because, you know, this movie is shocking and disturbing, but I think when there's also like dramatic reenactments of Ed Gein's crimes on Netflix every other week, I'm like,
Chris: Right.
Nate Day: You know, it's it it doesn't seem that crazy, but you have to kind of put yourself in the mindset of 1991.
Chris: I mean, how many times have you heard somebody say to you or to someone else? Hello, Clarice. Like it just it dug its claws in.
Nate Day: It's in there. Yeah, it did. Yeah. I was hoping that my friend Amber would would be here for this one. Like I said, she's a big fan and our our crew does... PowerPoint nights every once in a while, couple maybe two times a year where we all make PowerPoints and they're usually kind of silly and and we present them to each other. And hers was full of, I should have had her send it to me, like an explanation about why it's a comfort movie for some people and it has to do with those sort of emotional highs and lows, you know, and and the ultimate victory of the, the I guess, the
Nate Day: FBI winning, catching Buffalo Bill. Yeah, it would have been a lot of fun to hear what she had to say. But that's that's pretty much all I've got for the movie.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Nate Day: Do you want to dive into, do you have any more discussion questions?
Chris: Well, you start, because I did throw you one right at the top of the set there, eh?
Nate Day: Okay. Okay, sure. Yeah, that's right. I'm trying to decide what order to do these in. Okay, let me just do this.
Nate Day: One of my favorite things about this movie is how much visual language there is and in the movie. Things like Jonathan Demme is really known for these close-ups that really let you see every muscle in the face of his actors.
Nate Day: And when Chilton is trying to to sort of debrief Clarice right before she visits Hannibal Lecter for the first time, some, I don't know if like if it's an alarm that goes off or maybe it's just so a light signaling that some doors are opening, but it's a red light that goes off and like bathes both of their faces in this red light.
Chris: who
Nate Day: So you just immediately understand that like whatever is going to go down is going to be bad because red was bad. Right. And that's just one example.
Chris: Correct.
Chris: Uh-huh.
Nate Day: Is that in the book or like in any capacity? Or is that sort of the special touch that Jonathan Demme brought that makes the movie so good?
Chris: Oh no, that's what, I have to imagine that's what made someone want to make this a movie. the
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: The scene when she finds the head, Raspell, is that correct?
Nate Day: Is that the guy? I don't remember what his name is.
Chris: The first body? Yeah, when, it's like the first hinty thing that, that, Lector gives her. He says, check check the guy's car.
Chris: And she finds the car and it's in this old storage unit and she's there with the lawyer.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: That's one of the most tense individual scenes I've ever read in my life.
Nate Day: Really?
Chris: The door is jammed so she can only get it wedged up with a car jack far enough for her to get under.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: I would never do that.
Chris: Has to, even the description, oh, you could, yeah it felt like you were there. She has to move the boxes. She has the key. Oh, but this door doesn't have a lock. It's only on the front door.
Chris: So now she has to move all the boxes behind her.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And the whole time you're going, a fucking cannibal told you to come look at this. What's going to be in this car?
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Finally wiggles her way into the front seat. Thinks she sees a body. Oh no, it's just a mannequin.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Until it isn't.
Chris: But what's on its shoulders?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Oh, and that's that's why I say it was very akin to Jurassic Park in this sense.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Chris: You are at least a little bit on edge the whole time.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Chris: The whole time.
Nate Day: Cool.
Chris: Yeah, brilliantly written. Even seemingly innocuous. Like what you said, you are solving it with with her.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And so the alternative to that is you start, again, exactly what you said. You start reading into every little thing.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: You're like, is that a clue? Is that a clue? Oh, she's standing here, but she's going to interview and she needs to get a chair. And you're like, is that a clue? No, it's a chair.
Nate Day: No, it's chair.
Chris: And then it turns out it was a clue. And Chilton hit a tape recorder under it to undermine her rapport with like it was a clue.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Crap. Oh, brilliant. Tasty. Just. Yes.
Nate Day: Interesting. Good. OK. Cool. I'm actually going to go again because I wrote some extra ones this time, or an extra one. is that all right?
Chris: OK, OK. Of course, of course.
Nate Day: This one, we kind of talked about this a little bit. Does it read like a sequel or or are you did you feel fine picking up book number two?
Chris: Yeah, not at all. I mean, these these feel... Did you ever watch... I'm sure you've seen Chronicles of Riddick, right?
Nate Day: No.
Chris: Vin Diesel.
Nate Day: Oh, Vin Diesel.
Chris: What?
Nate Day: I've seen clips of them, yeah.
Chris: Very much along the same lines. That's also a sequel.
Nate Day: Oh, okay.
Chris: of a first movie called Pitch Black, which I get a similar reaction from people that are like, that's a sequel. This was almost in the sense like the like the Agatha Christie or the Hercule Perrault's, those are the same one, Hercule Perrault or Sherlock Holmes, like they stand alone.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Sure.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Chris: There's no sense in this one. I don't know. I have not read the first one. Maybe my answer would be different if I had, like you're already introduced the character.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: But you're... What I loved about the book, and I did not feel this way, I'll quit saying it, but when I saw the movie, whatever, 20 years ago, you're so culturally attached to Lecter that you almost go into it, I think...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I wish I could remember now. Well, when when did you see it the first time?
Nate Day: Not that long ago, actually. Maybe only five years, like college.
Chris: Wow. Okay.
Nate Day: Maybe.
Chris: Okay. Well then, the no, that's recent enough.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Going into it, did you feel like you had a sense of who the main character was?
Nate Day: I thought it was the Hannibal Lecter story.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yes. Yes, exactly. i mean, it's called like the Lecter series or whatever. The book very much feels like Starling is the main character.
Nate Day: okay yeah
Chris: Especially since you get this non-omniscient...
Chris: not entirely first person because we get those glimpses of Buffalo Bill as well but for the most part first person in the book it shocked me how much you feel like this is her story and he's just a part of it does that make sense
Nate Day: Okay. Yeah, it does. I mean, the the you've seen the Red Dragon movie, so you know that it's similar. a cop is consulting Hannibal Lecter. I was just curious.
Chris: yes
Nate Day: I don't know if there was anything where you were like, wait, what?
Chris: No, no, because it...
Nate Day: Yeah. But because he's not the main character, I can see how that
Chris: i think that I think that is really what attributes to it. Yeah, I don't know. I almost wish I had read dr Red Red Dragon now.
Chris: To know if it feels like... that if it If that is the case and it feels like a continuation, I think that would make the first few chapters of this feel somewhat baffling. Because you very much feel like this is the Clarice Starlin show.
Chris: And then Lecter is obviously this looming presence.
Nate Day: Oh, OK. Good.
Chris: But you you you get to focus so much more on a text.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: You know?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Because it takes...
Nate Day: Oh, totally.
Chris: physical pages to get to that next scene where now we're focused on someone else or you're walking with her down this weird creepy hallway to go chat with him right like no i think i and i don't know if that was deliberate on the author's part if maybe he sensed that these would be bigger individually than as a series i don't know but you no sense of that i i don't feel like he sensed that in the movie
Nate Day: Yep. Yeah.
Nate Day: No, no, i agree.
Chris: Okay, give me give me give me my discussing question. turn Oh yeah, I just said asked above. ha ha This is a feeling I had and I don't know if it was just me. We we did kind of end up discussing this a little.
Chris: Did you find yourself while watching as the audience member oscillating between these feelings of repulsion and I'm i'm hesitant to even say admiration, but sort of morally, emotionally ambiguous about Dr. Lecter, like nearly rooting for him at some time.
Chris: Did you have those conflicting feelings?
Nate Day: Oh.
Nate Day: Yes. I mean, he's so goddamn smart.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: And you're just having so much fun playing this sort of cat and mouse game that that he and Clarice are playing.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: That it is sort of, you are, kind you're you're kind of excited to see him when he comes on screen. And then he does what he does, right? about halfway through the movie and and you're like, never mind, never mind.
Chris: Yes.
Chris: Not his friend.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Never said I liked him.
Nate Day: yeah But then I will say the ending, you you pointed out that the endings are different in the book and the movie. The ending in the movie is really satisfying because he is chasing down Chilton to
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: chow down and you're, you know, you hate Chilton.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: So, there is definitely an element where you're like, do it.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: Frigging eat him up. You know? yeah, that's pretty dark. Actually. I hadn't really considered that, but yes, that's exactly how he is.
Chris: I mean, especially when he's just full on colluding, like, yeah, give me the file. Show me. Tell me. And like when he, you know, the, that feeling, oh, I need to pay attention to every detail.
Nate Day: know.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: When he hands the file back to her, I was like, he hid something in there.
Nate Day: I thought so too.
Chris: He's given her something, you know?
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: but i Yeah. Again, I want to be so far away from saying I'm like team cannibal guy.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Army hammer excluded. Big fan. No, kidding, kidding.
Chris: But I had not thought about this part until just now. Is there any other actor you think? I mean, Anthony Hopkins was brilliant.
Chris: And I know part of that is being opposite Foster, the two of them together, just spectacular.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, good chemistry, yeah.
Chris: But like, could anyone else have conveyed that? He just did such a brilliant job.
Nate Day: I don't know if anybody else could have, not just because he's a brilliant actor, but because he's also, he's not like a drop-dead gorgeous dude. You know what I mean? Like that element of your neighbor could be Hannibal Lecter.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: You know, if it was somebody like Armie Hammer, who I'm only using because you just joked about him, and because he's a cannibal.
Chris: Okay, let's say it was Brad Pitt.
Nate Day: Yeah, you wouldn't be able to get over how good looking he is.
Chris: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Agreed. A good point.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: You know who could have actually...
Nate Day: Yeah. And what are you to say? Tim Curry, Ron Perlman.
Chris: Tim Curry would, Tim Curry, no, not Ron Perlman, too good looking.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Tim Curry would have been a real good Hannibal Lecter. Let's see what, well, no, I know what Tim Curry looked at in 91.
Nate Day: both of the things Both of the things you just said were so wrong.
Chris: Cardinal Richelieu? oh
Chris: Ron Perlman's still great looking.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: He's got that rugged handsomeness. I don't know. He clamps the cigar in his jaw and you're like, yeah, man, don't know. I'd cuddle.
Nate Day: He looks like those things from Super Mario that bonk you on the head.
Chris: Which I'm also attracted to. So jokes on you.
Nate Day: Well, there you go. Yeah, I guess.
Chris: Uno reverse card.
Nate Day: Joke's on me. How is the night vision sequence written in the book? Is it in there or is that an addition to the movie?
Chris: Oh, so good. I think it's better in the book.
Nate Day: Oh, OK. Why?
Chris: Oh, good. She comes down there. And I think this part, if I recall correctly, I mean, you've got the alarm bells going right away. No, don't go into the house.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: You're alone. Wait for back like the classic whatever.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: But then makes it as far down as getting to the well, seeing. Senator's daughter, don't remember her name.
Nate Day: Oh, yeah.
Chris: down in the well, who, again, well documented my disdain for unfair treatment, starts just like swearing and cursing at her.
Chris: And she's like, you fucking bitch, don't leave me down here.
Nate Day: She is such a jerk. I know.
Chris: And yeah, and Clarice is like, yo dude, still a serial killer in the house.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: No, I'm not going to try to get you out right now.
Nate Day: Hold your horses. Yeah.
Chris: And then she's she's looking for him and she finds this bathroom and then he kills the lights and she, oh, so good.
Chris: So tense. I mean, I had seen the movie. I know how this ends.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And I'm still like, what if he, what if, oh, but what if, what if it somehow magically ends different now?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Incredible, inre phenomenal writing, phenomenal writing.
Nate Day: That's good writing. Good. I'm glad it's in there because that's the moment of the movie that really makes me like, I mean, it's all creepy and awful, but that's the moment where I'm like, holy shit.
Nate Day: I don't know if I can finish this movie.
Chris: Yeah. No, that's the scene that makes you like wake up at 1am that night to go to the bathroom and think about just peeing in your bed instead of walking through the dark.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Oh my God, you are on a real tear tonight.
Chris: Oh, and they even add how like, uh, when the, uh, what are they called? Skull's head or death's head moths?
Chris: When the cage gets, like, disturbed while he's walking around, all of the dust shows up on the knife.
Nate Day: Yuck.
Chris: Whew!
Nate Day: Gross.
Chris: Incredible.
Nate Day: Mots are gross, man.
Chris: Incredible. A whole lot of... Oh, picturing, I mean, he couldn't have picked a better...
Chris: living thing for that theme right i mean much much less the cover art that it gave the movie holy but the i i imagine they skipped this for the movie the whole her going to the smithsonian and them going through the taxonomy of how they determined what type of moth they were finding in the mouths
Nate Day: I know. I know, right?
Nate Day: i was going to say, the movie's poster is so famous.
Nate Day: Whoa.
Nate Day: Yeah, no, that was skipped.
Chris: oh it i mean it just builds up the drama tenfold right
Nate Day: I'm sure, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, well, what'd you rate it on Goodreads?
Chris: Yeah, this was, it felt so good to feel real.
Nate Day: Since I don't check.
Chris: This was this was another, again, due to my arguably skewed and flawed system. Not a five. Big old solid four, but...
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: This may retroactively have to change. i can vary I can very reasonably see myself returning to this.
Nate Day: Whoa.
Chris: It may be a full-on five.
Nate Day: Wow.
Chris: As I said, like Jurassic Park, on the edge of your seat the whole time, it's so mysterious, repulsive, ingenious.
Nate Day: Cool.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Like we talked about, you're trying to solve these questions alongside Starlink.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Just everything you could want in a book, you know?
Nate Day: Yeah. I do know.
Chris: Yeah, yeah. one of them i have to imagine similar.
Nate Day: Yes. I gave it 4.5.
Chris: Oh.
Nate Day: don't it i don't know exactly what's keeping me from giving it five stars, which makes me think it's probably like discomfort with the subject material and the fact that like, I didn't love watching a person bite the nose off of another person, even though it was a huge part of,
Chris: Hmm.
Chris: Fair.
Chris: Hold on, hold on. ne That brings up a good question.
Nate Day: okay.
Chris: very much loved this, but I would not want this to be every book I read.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: So does that skew the scale?
Chris: Because calling it a five would not mean you want to read this. Calling it a five doesn't mean you want to eat someone's nose.
Nate Day: No, but I mean, maybe like it was just uncomfortable to sit in a story about cannibalism.
Chris: The eating of noses.
Nate Day: That's yeah.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: Like it's like, yeah, like giving it five stars almost feels dirty because it's such a fucking nasty story.
Chris: Okay.
Chris: But also to be fair, it's absolutely not a story about eating noses.
Nate Day: You know what I mean?
Nate Day: No, I know. And that's, I mean, that's the the brilliance of it is that it's so uneasy to even like think and talk and relive that I'm like, I can't call it perfect, even though it kind of technically is.
Chris: Yeah.
Chris: Like that's just a hobby. That is just the hobby of arguably the third most important character.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: You could argue Buffalo Bill is a more important character than Hannibal Lecter.
Nate Day: there Yeah, there's no story without Buffalo Bill.
Chris: Which is wild because you also kind of don't care about Buffalo Bill. You're like, no, go back to them talking.
Nate Day: Right. Right. Right.
Chris: Oh, such good writing.
Nate Day: But yeah.
Chris: Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Nate Day: And
Chris: So 4.5.
Nate Day: yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's phenomenal. I don't know what I could say about it that hasn't been said, except that I think I just can't give it a full five because the subject matter makes me so uncomfortable, which is kind of a good thing.
Chris: Fair.
Nate Day: Like it's it's a four, like it's it's
Chris: It should.
Nate Day: like a black mark on the ledger, but it's a black mark that should be there. You know what I mean?
Chris: Yes, yes, yep.
Chris: Of course.
Nate Day: But it's also pretty procedural and believable. All of the story beats, the pacing is fantastic. So it feels like it a real crime being solved in the real world.
Nate Day: So if you're a fan of movies like Psycho and Seven, Copycat, anything about serial killers, this would be the one for you.
Chris: Oh my gosh, seven.
Nate Day: But also if you just need like a spooky, you know, horror Halloween something, this is a good one.
Chris: I'd watch this on Halloween, no question.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. Who do you recommend it to?
Chris: Yeah, this actually feels like probably one of the widest spreads that I've had yet. I think...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Similar.
Chris: Because exactly what you said, of course, there are the very graphic, very gory aspects that we've we've discussed previously kind of take on their own tinge in text.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I think in this case, that actually does it a service where actually what we talked about up at the top, Mexican and Gothic, that is a deeply unsettling body horror specifically text.
Nate Day: It is? Whoa, I didn't know that.
Chris: It's tough. It's tough. It gets dark, dark.
Nate Day: Wow.
Chris: As we talk about some guy eating a nose. There's an aspect of Silence of the Lambs where I think that cultural identification does it a service where if you would normally be more squeamish than this would jive with, you can kind of skirt it.
Nate Day: Yeah, I agree.
Chris: Because again, the book the book feels very much like Clarice is the story.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And you can, I think in that context, the percentage of absolutely heinous scenes really drops quickly. And you're just part of a good story.
Nate Day: yeah Yeah. Right.
Chris: So in that sense, I said it was maybe a little less haunting than the movie definitely is.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: I would say I would recommend it to most readers. If you even vaguely enjoy thrillers, cop drama-esque, you know, it's not the drama side of it, but as you said, very procedural, very realistic.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Even if you're just interested in like what makes up the zeitgeist and the canon of like 20th century culture, I think this is text that you want to get to.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Totally. I totally agree. i think it's had just undeniable influence on, on at least entertainment culture here in America.
Chris: Yes. And well-deserved. Well-deserved.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff. Great stuff. I'm glad that we got a good banger in.
Chris: Yes. Oh, this felt good.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Thank you all for joining us. Up next, we have one that I think is going to be pretty special for Chris. Do you remember what we're doing next?
Chris: No, I have no idea what we're doing next.
Nate Day: We're going to do Under the Tuscan Sun
Chris: Oh!
Nate Day: by by
Chris: Join us next week to finally see me cry.
Nate Day: by Frances Mayes, film adaptation directed by Audrey Wells.
Chris: Oh boy.
Nate Day: And i'll have a I'll have a fun story to share, or maybe I'll let you share it.
Chris: oh
Nate Day: It's kind of your story. So, okay.
Chris: I think you get to share it. I think you get to, i want to hear the Nate POV on that one. Cause I know mine.
Nate Day: Good at least. Yeah, that's true. Maybe mine is the easier pill to swallow. So anyway, thank you for joining us. We look forward to our next conversation. Please stay away from moths and and slaughterhouses and cannibals.
Nate Day: do you have anything to add, Chris?
Chris: No, do those things.
Nate Day: Okay. Thanks, everybody.
Chris: Bye.
