Transcript
Nate Day: Welcome to Adaptation, the book to movie podcast. I'm Nate.
Chris: And I'm Chris.
Nate Day: And today we have a special guest with us. We've got Josh. Hi, Josh.
Chris: Hey guys.
Nate Day: How you doing?
Chris: Doing well. Thanks for inviting me on.
Nate Day: Good. Yeah, you're a friend of Chris's, a bandmate of Chris's out in New York, correct? and
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: And are you a big reader? Is that where this... um suggestion for this book came from?
Chris: I'd like to think so. i don't know about big reader but definitely a reader yeah know
Nate Day: Okay.
Nate Day: Okay, great.
Chris: He has a home library I'm definitely jealous of.
Nate Day: well
Nate Day: Oh, really?
Chris: than i do
Nate Day: Okay. What part of New York do you live in?
Chris: Brooklyn, New York.
Nate Day: Also Brooklyn? Okay, cool. Well, for the sake of the conversation that we're having today, we are talking about This Boy's Life. written by... Remind me, Chris.
Nate Day: Tobias Wolff
Chris: Tobias Wolff Yeah.
Nate Day: And a film adaptation. Um. Directed by Michael Caton Jones. But before we jump into all that, I want to hear. what you guys have been reading and watching. lately josh what kind of stuff is this kind of your wheelhouse that you like to read.
Chris: Yeah, very much so. I think I found Tobias Wolff mainly from his short stories.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: I love that. kind of he has like a like a dirty realist kind of genre for the short story so Predecessors may be someone like Raymond Carver Richard Ford and others and and maybe before that even kind of stemming from Hemingway's like Iceberg theory of writing.
Chris: So I very much found him there. and I found that he had written a couple memoirs, and so I had to check it out.
Nate Day: Yeah, this is one of a few, right? And I think his brother is also an author.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Sounds like kind of a crazy.
Chris: Yeah, yeah Definitely.
Nate Day: dynamic there. Are you like a um do you have like a degree in literature or something that was really impressive that little
Chris: I do not.
Nate Day: nugget right there.
Chris: Yet.
Nate Day: No?
Chris: and up In another life. In like another parallel universe, yes.
Nate Day: Sure. Okay, yeah, everybody needs a side hustle.
Chris: ah i'm leaning on him pretty hard to become a high school english teacher i think he'd crush
Nate Day: Well, you never know. There might be.
Chris: You never know.
Nate Day: There might be time for a second career. Um... because ours is so much fun. Anyway.
Chris: ah
Nate Day: what What have you been... reading and watching lately, Josh.
Chris: Yeah, actually what I've been reading is kind of a left turn I jumped on the, well it's not really a hype train now, but I feel like it's had a resurgence in the last couple months, is a Lonesome Dove.
Chris: Yeah! The classic.
Nate Day: Oh, that's they just announced that they're remaking the miniseries, too, for Netflix.
Chris: Yeah, I feel like it's been everywhere recently. So I picked it up.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Shameful you. more than a few months ago, and I've been just plotting and plotting. Oh, that puppy's a tome. There's nothing shameful about that.
Nate Day: Is it big?
Chris: I think it's just north of 900.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: Good Lord.
Chris: It's hefty.
Nate Day: Well, we'll have to do that one when the series comes out.
Chris: So I have like a couple hundred pages left. well i have to so guess who else started reading it i think the same week as josh Hmm.
Nate Day: Oh, who?
Chris: Brett.
Nate Day: Oh great. we can have a big party.
Chris: And it's it's... yeah it's taking him like the exact same amount of time i know i was like is it time for us to have uh four -way without audio difficulties. okay
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah, we could give it a try.
Chris: what if What if the plot twist for the new adaptation is that it's a whole new cast, except Robert Duvall is still in it? Hmm.
Nate Day: Robert Duvall is dead.
Chris: Yeah. Huh.
Nate Day: Chris knows three actors and... Two of them are now dead. And the third is Ron Perlman.
Chris: It's... It's Slim Pickens.
Nate Day: who's very old. So.
Chris: Oh boy, if we lose Ron, I'm done.
Nate Day: I know we might have to retire the podcast.
Chris: When I...
Chris: If it helps when I am reading it, I'm envisioning Gus. Sam Elliott is in my head. Yeah, Sophia.
Nate Day: Ooh, that's good.
Chris: you know to pass him up would be a miss i think
Nate Day: Yeah, I'm sure. and ah I'm sure he's on the top of the list for... ne Netflix's casting agents.
Chris: oh yeah
Nate Day: That'd be a good get. What about you, Chris? What are you reading?
Chris: Um... So I actually, right before, I had almost finished this when we did... um under the tuscan sun but i had i just wrapped it up a couple days after we recorded that um upgrade
Nate Day: Mm -hmm.
Chris: By Blake. Crouch. I want to make sure there's an R in his last name because for some reason I'm blanking now.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: He's the one who wrote, yeah, Blake Crouch. He wrote... um Oh my gosh. A phenom of the sci -fi world. He's brilliant for these...
Chris: still very much fictional tales but each one he kind of approaches a theme of physics like schrodinger's cat or um time travel or you know that i don't remember if he has a time travel one he writes in such a brilliant way very much along the lines of andy where that's like
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: You feel it's entirely plausible.
Nate Day: Okay? Great.
Chris: and um Oh, he wrote dark matter and recursion. Both also phenomenal. Uh. Upgrade is about... like genome and dna splicing like in such a way that the whole time you're very much thinking, are we are we on the cusp of this?
Chris: it's Crazy book. Very cool writing. Not something I typically lean toward, but his writing is just so good.
Nate Day: Interesting.
Chris: It pulls you in.
Nate Day: Okay. Cool.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What have you been watching?
Nate Day: um i've been I've had a busy couple of weeks, so I'm lacking a little bit here. but ah Let me scroll through. Let's see where I'm at here. Teenage sex and death at Camp Miasma. is a horror slasher.
Nate Day: kind of a um Man, I don't even know how to describe this movie. It's... very cerebral and It's sort of deconstructing what the horror slasher.
Nate Day: is and can be and why it is those things. um Kind of interesting, not really for me, but... ah I know a lot of people like the filmmaker, Jane. sch Schoenbrun Shonen Bran?
Nate Day: um So if you're into her for sure to check it out. Did I mention the Anthony Bourdain biopic the last time we talked?
Chris: ah We talked about it, but I don't remember if you had seen it yet or not.
Nate Day: I know. I can't remember either. i love Anyway, I love it. I think it's one of the best movies of the year.
Chris: Heck yeah.
Nate Day: and i Oh, I think we did talk about it because I said that I didn't.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: I don't have much of a relationship to. Anthony Bourdain. So I was just kind of bowled over by like. how cool I thought it was because it was basically how I like learned who he was.
Nate Day: You know what I mean?
Chris: Yeah, yeah
Nate Day: And it's based on the first few.
Chris: did you Have you read Kitchen Confidential? Okay.
Nate Day: yeah Yeah, that's one I want to... pick up now. I think it's based on the first few chapters.
Chris: Yeah, the I mean, the preview certainly made it seem like that.
Nate Day: of kitchen kitchen confidential. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: I love that they got Antonio Banderas in there.
Nate Day: But.
Chris: Absolutely incredible.
Nate Day: Oh, and he's so good to the cast.
Chris: Really?
Nate Day: the performances are ah maybe one of the best parts of that movie. Yeah. You'd love it. You guys would probably both really like it
Chris: I'm a big Anthony fan.
Nate Day: I know you are.
Chris: Tony.
Nate Day: So I guess you know four.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: I guess you know four actors.
Chris: oh Antonio Banderas.
Nate Day: Antonio Banderas, yeah. RIP to Robert Duvall and Tim Curry.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, two out of four ain't bad.
Nate Day: And then you've got Ron Perlman and... Antonio Banderas. Okay.
Chris: Well, Blair and I just watched the other week, the really young Antonio Banderas.
Nate Day: Good.
Chris: The one where it's like him and his two brothers and they keep a bunch of guns in guitar cases.
Nate Day: Oh. I don't know what that is.
Chris: Are you familiar? it was like
Nate Day: No.
Chris: I want to say 1994
Nate Day: You don't have any idea what the title was?
Chris: Nope. Let's Google exactly what I just said Antonio Bandera's guns in guitar case
Chris: 1995, cannot believe that worked. Desperado. Oh, yeah.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: yeah yeah
Nate Day: Um,
Chris: Ah.
Nate Day: I'll add it to my list. I do not like that director, but I'll add it to the list.
Chris: I mean the movies.
Nate Day: Robert Rodriguez is not.
Chris: Rubbish. The plot is nothing.
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: Um. the the in
Nate Day: What do you mean? It's got a 3 .5 on Letterboxd. That's pretty good.
Chris: The end. Tire. appeal of that film is based around Super hot protagonists. Lots of unrealistic gunfights.
Chris: The end.
Nate Day: Well. I'll take it
Chris: That's it. That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing.
Nate Day: Stylized action, buddy. Tim and Salma Hayek.
Chris: It's delightful.
Nate Day: that's a And Steve Buscemi.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: And Cheech.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: Quentin Tarantino.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: Whoa.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: Danny Trejo? Come on, whatever. Don't say it's rubbish. Yes.
Chris: No, it's right up my alley. we were So we were just talking about this before we started recording, Josh and I, because apparently the Emmys are tonight.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, weird that it's...
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: We're recording on a Monday. And that's very strange. That's not normal.
Chris: Oh interesting. I mean, ah you could have told me it's always a Monday.
Nate Day: They're usually on a Sunday. but
Chris: oh
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: um But here... I also get along very well with his wife, Cameron. And.
Nate Day: Great.
Chris: She and I have like the polar opposite. approach to media consumption. and so like
Nate Day: Oh.
Chris: For me, this movie? Yeah. don't Don't make me think.
Nate Day: Perfect.
Chris: but Selma Hayek. The big... the explosion gunfight some guitar playing Hmm.
Nate Day: That is not what I thought you were going to say.
Chris: Great.
Nate Day: When you said s Salma Hayek big, I was like, oh, Chris, what are you going to get us into here the podcast?
Chris: yes Make explosions! Oh.
Nate Day: Yeah. That's, yeah.
Chris: That was a genuine mistake.
Nate Day: Salma Hayek is known for big something else.
Chris: She's just got this great... Personality. Ah.
Nate Day: She does is the thing. She does.
Chris: this is This is primarily audio content form, so I think I get away with that one. Um...
Nate Day: Yep.
Chris: Do you want to hear about this boy's life?
Nate Day: I would like to.
Chris: Hate that that's the title. Really makes for an odd sentence.
Nate Day: it is It does make for a weird sentence.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. um First and foremost, i put it I put one line in here because I just wasn't sure where it would fit best, but you already alluded to it, Nate.
Nate Day: Mm.
Chris: So I think an appropriate starting point would be we we had something different scheduled for this week that got... Pushed. Right.
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah. Something random.
Chris: I don't remember what it was
Nate Day: I mean it wasn't tied to a release or anything. I don't think
Chris: and And I was just smoking a pipe with Josh. And he was talking about this, and I realized that it was an adaptation. So I think a good lead off would be. josh y of Every title possible.
Chris: Was this what came to, I mean, you had no hesitation. You were like, you need to read this book. I think we had been talking about. writing before that. I think you're correct. And he's a writer that I greatly admire.
Chris: And so I initially just gravitated towards it. Okay, I think if that was... I mean, if you would ask me right now, favorite writer, I'd just say... toby Okay, course yeah. And that's and it when you say that, you mean...
Chris: the Style. Correct. Not necessarily the content. Uh... Yeah. I think there's okay beauty in both. Of course, of course. But in terms of... um You know lots of people have crazy ah unique upbringings.
Chris: And this book is truly distinct of that. I presume especially for it to be the first one that you're willing to recommend. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's, I think. I definitely resonate with some of the characters deeply. um Some of the relational conflict that happens, I definitely Ah.
Chris: think i've understood at a deeper level so i think it is maybe that's probably why i don't know yeah there's no it's a great book after reading this book that is a hefty statement Okay.
Nate Day: So what is it?
Chris: I i cannot wait to hear more of that.
Nate Day: What is it about his writing that draws? UN so much. How about it? Tobias Wolff's writing.
Chris: Yeah. I think. I think a big thing about it is he puts a lot of respect on the reader. to do the... Hard work.
Chris: Of. Intuiting kind of the hidden layers to the writing. He doesn't just spill out what he wants to say to you He leaves it a little bit obscure without it being Um...
Chris: like forcefully hidden you know i think there's just layers to the writing um and i do think that
Nate Day: Sure.
Chris: It's a breath of fresh air especially reading now a lot of modern novels where they just feels like full -throated just dump onto the page of like every thought that goes through your head like i kind of want to do the work a little bit as a reader
Nate Day: ah
Chris: Um, And I think that I've encountered him, like I said earlier, in a short story space primarily. And I think ah to that. form as opposed to a novel or something longer like a memoir.
Chris: Um... There has to be this heightened sense of language, almost like there is in poetry. Like thing you don't have as much space right so words need to carry more weight And I think that he just does that beautifully without.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: it seems so it's almost like the first time i read hemingway you read a hemingway story and it's like about a guy and his son they're just canoeing down the lake you know whatever
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Um, And at first you can read that. just on the surface, which I did for many years. And I'm like, oh, it's a cute little story. and then you know later after living some more life i come back to it with fresh eyes and i'm like whoa i never saw this before there's so much depth here i think that he achieves that so effortless effortlessly um it's
Nate Day: wow Yeah.
Chris: It's a skill.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Certainly.
Nate Day: Cool. Good. Well, I'm excited to dive into it then.
Chris: Wow. yeah just throw all of what i wrote out the window uh that's better So. ah but i'm not yeah see twice under here let me Let me tell you a little bit about the book.
Chris: Um...
Nate Day: Great.
Chris: ah In anticipation that the discussion would be the far more interesting part today, my synopsis is relatively brief.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: Um. Also, I do need to take one step back because I totally forgot to read this at the beginning. which is why I put it there and then missed it anyway. Did you, Nate, check out the Hugo Awards?
Nate Day: earth
Nate Day: No. What do you mean check out? like is there Is there a broadcast, like a television? broadcast.
Chris: I don't know. I just look it up online. It happened again right after we recorded Under the Tuscan Sun, end of August here.
Nate Day: Okay. No, I didn't. Okay.
Chris: Hugo Awards is the biggest. Sci -Fi Awards.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: And I... I should have written it down. I think it was best screenplay went to Sinners.
Nate Day: Oh great. Perfect. Love it.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I saw that and I was like, oh, Nate's going to love this.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: You would not recognize anything else on the list. but
Nate Day: That's alright.
Chris: That was exciting.
Nate Day: Happy for all the winners.
Chris: And it's in. Yes, yes, of course, of course. Okay, the book, Rapid Fire Here, published in 1989, I believe. Fairly.
Chris: Closely followed by the movie, is that correct?
Nate Day: Yes, the movie is 93 is when it came out.
Chris: At least.
Chris: Wow Okay.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Um, it's about his life I think it's entirely in the 50s. Does that sound right? Yes, I think so um Growing up in the Pacific Northwest, West Coast, I think they're in California for a little bit of it as well.
Chris: um In approaching how to discuss the book, it felt somewhat odd, not just because when we have a guest, we do more discussing, but also...
Chris: I like to open with a discussion about the author, but we're... We're talking about a memoir. The entire book is a discussion of...
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: The author?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: in their early life.
Nate Day: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Chris: Um... i don't I don't know that there are any... It's very episodic. Right? He jumps around. It's chronological, but...
Nate Day: Mm hmm.
Chris: you're not getting just here's one day, here's the next day. um So I don't know if there are any particular vignettes that we feel are like so important they need to be highlighted. Hmm. i can think of a few about them i don't know right i know i know exactly that's why i think they'll just come up naturally yeah uh but it's just it's the stories of Peace.
Chris: Very. Torrid childhood. ah His dad. Leaves his mom. Moves to the East Coast. They...
Chris: Don't get divorced, I think. Doesn't he just like leave? I think they get divorced eventually, but I'm not sure the timeline on it. Yeah. um They're, like, hopping around all over the place. She has...
Chris: seemingly the worst taste in men. humanly possible.
Nate Day: Yeah, it's pretty bad
Chris: Um, this series of like stepdad figures that are absolute douche canoes i mean it's it's honestly an insane life like removing the time frame virtually any individual thing. And obviously to make it into the memoir, he wasn't just going to say, oh yeah, this one Tuesday in November, I went to school, went home and read a book.
Chris: Uh, Hi.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: like consistently one story after another i just found myself thinking wow not in a million years would i Try to go to the neighbor's house and siphon gas or go Uh... Forge a check.
Chris: to try to get some cash out of a pharmacy and like some of those are like 1950s coded for sure. but
Nate Day: Right. Right.
Chris: Really insane childhood. um
Chris: fairly early on so this was just one example exactly what josh alluded to um i just found myself writing down a series of quotes because i think Um... i told josh this right away when i started reading this was absolutely another one for me had it not been for this episode that we were preparing for i almost certainly would not have finished this book Mmm.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: I think I would have said, F you, I don't like this. And we'll get into that in the discussion questions.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: But... ah Getting through it. Once again, I'm glad that I did. and really exactly what you said very eloquently. To me, the power, the magic of this book is...
Chris: A fairly extraordinary life. on Unlike. what any of us have lived and then written in this Very. engaging way.
Chris: Yeah. he doesn't He doesn't try to make excuses. for these. objectively obscene life decisions he made. Yeah, totally. I mean he doesn't... uh like make himself a hero by any means no No.
Chris: which I think takes a lot of courage and humility to kind of go back and look at your own life that way. I think david it's almost like we do that.
Nate Day: Oh yeah.
Chris: Ah. Like when someone passes away and you look back and you see all the fond memories, you kind of exaggerate them. I think we do that with our own lives. Absolutely. You know, and I think that.
Nate Day: 100%.
Chris: To have that clarity is... It's a gift. Oh, how else do you live with yourself? yeah and he And he doesn't... he there was There is also an element, I mean, very much... a series of extraordinary life -altering adverse circumstances
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: And... In the same way that he does not. uh misrepresent himself in a fonder light he does not It wouldn't even be exaggeration.
Chris: to develop a level of Um... I don't know sympathy on the reader's part. And he... To me, I have to believe deliberately does not. engage in that either.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: He he states just as matter of factly yeah i did this ridiculous thing we were smoking in the bathroom at school and then i just decided to leave and we would go drive down the highway till we could find more gas to steal and Uh... Yeah, my new stepdad made me.
Chris: What was it? Bare -handed... husk Like six crates. Of. Horse chestnuts? yeah that were like slicing his hands open and it
Nate Day: What?
Chris: Yeah, no, literally 1000 things I kind of could not fathom, but he presents it in such a matter of fact way it's not like
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: This is... Unambiguous child abuse. deliberately happening because his mom is not there he very explicitly like
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: hovers around whenever the kid's mom is visiting. tobias the writer, the author. uh like to make sure he doesn't say anything about him and in his mind he's like well this is what i'm living in anyway so i wouldn't say anything either way i'm just like chill with it like Kind of a mind -blowing amount of...
Chris: Well, I don't even want to say understanding because it's it's a frankly detrimental approach on his part. yeah but it's it really forces you to examine the situations themselves
Nate Day: Sure.
Chris: Um...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: If that makes sense. Obviously all memoirs and autobiographies do that, but it's in such a subtle and unique way. Anyway, the the first quote that I was like, whoa, I have to stop. He would just weave in. i think this is what you were getting at josh he would weave in these Gut punches.
Chris: But everything was so subtle. So subdued. that these also would be like you could easily miss them and then you kind of go back and go wait what did he just say and like you're the rest of your day is colored
Nate Day: oh
Chris: So the first one of those for me, I want to say it was around chapter five. I should have written it down more clearly. He said, fearlessness in men without power is maddening to those who have it.
Chris: a
Nate Day: say Sorry, say that again.
Chris: And I'm...
Nate Day: Fearlessness.
Chris: Fearlessness. in men without power. is maddening to those who have it.
Nate Day: Oh. Yeah, totally.
Chris: And I believe he was, this guy I mean, this guy lived through roughly 1 ,000. very realistic bullying experiences. And seemingly at a young age was just kind of like.
Chris: Well... This is what's happening. Yeah. Beat the shit out of me. I'll move on. I it's magnificent. And, ah and that like very much like so easily can be pulled out and applied to everyone's lives. I always picture.
Chris: um I tell my students this story often. We've talked about this. I somehow end up with a lot of students out here in Brooklyn who are like, oh, yeah, if someone hits you, you just have to hit them back harder. And I'm like, no.
Chris: Let's dial that back, you know, talk about.
Nate Day: Not necessarily. Yeah.
Chris: ah childhood not like mine right and the example I always give is okay
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Two cars are driving down the road. You get cut off. You sit back there screaming your head off, flipping them off, whatever. Who's having the worst day?
Chris: The person who cut you off does not care. They're moving on.
Nate Day: Doesn't know.
Chris: Your.
Nate Day: Yep.
Chris: Your day is ruined because you're holding on to this anchor. And that was very much what I saw in this as he's, again, facing absolute shithead stepdads. His dad who just straight up...
Chris: Like, married a millionaire and left? I think. uh is
Nate Day: That's the impression I got, yeah.
Chris: his brother got out his mom's just like yeah yeah i'll try to look for a job you go live with this family in Cement. washington just
Nate Day: kind Concrete.
Chris: Concrete. Yes, that's right. I mean, just absolutely insane, right? One thing.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And that was what I really disliked about it.
Nate Day: Cement.
Chris: But again, we'll get into that later.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Uh. Just such an adroit view of the world. Oh, it was incredible. The other... Arguably most important one. There's no way either of you remember chapter 17. I mean, I have no idea if they got this into the movie word for word.
Chris: You want to guess what fantastic quote he said? i don't even know the last time you read it it's been a couple years I watched it recently again, but yeah, it's been a couple years since I read it. In chapter 17. He says.
Chris: but I think someone offered him like. do you want to go get drunk by the river or something? And he says, Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Nate Day: No way he does.
Chris: and Yep.
Nate Day: Oh, now, great. Now my whole... Frigging plan is ruined.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: I've been giving Chris shit for saying that.
Chris: he He responds the exact same way. I'm like no, I think he shits in the Vatican.
Nate Day: and That I do?
Chris: yeah Yeah, he responds literally the exact same way.
Nate Day: That's... See? He shits in a golden toilet.
Chris: I'm like, do you mean a bear shit in the woods?
Nate Day: Exactly.
Chris: uh -huh yeah
Nate Day: No way.
Chris: And yet, look who else said it.
Nate Day: You're kidding me. That's in this stupid book. Now I hate this book.
Chris: Yeah. I am amongst good company.
Nate Day: Dang it.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Hmm. oh i was so excited i it took every fiber of my being not to text both of you when i hit that quote
Nate Day: I can't believe that that's crazy.
Chris: Yeah. Very excited about that one.
Nate Day: I'm sure you are. Dang it.
Chris: Um... yeah those are that's honestly like that's my synopsis because i feel i mean there are I would argue virtually every little vignette within it.
Chris: has like merit that deserves to be pulled apart but that would be the entire book But it's... I mean, truly a remarkable, that it's the level of writing that you're like. This dude could follow me around.
Chris: for a week. and make it into a compelling novella.
Nate Day: Yeah. It's an interesting... exercise because most memoirs that become best sellers that are adapted to film are you know bye by famous people that are already like famous for.
Nate Day: something else.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: And this is just a guy.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: I mean, obviously he was a great writer, but...
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: ah That's like the lane that he was in and it just so happens that he had this remarkable story to tell. you know And i I was thinking about that. as I was watching it because nowadays every movie has to have some sort of way to hook you already they're not going to be like you're going to love this story it has to be like you love this actor Maybe you love this director and you love the superhero it's based on or the pop star it's based on or the... um
Nate Day: you know toy it's based on something like that and i was like wow this movie like has no Hook. You know, because it was just a guy. I mean, I guess Robert De Niro was the hook.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: but but um You don't see a lot of stories like that. So I think to be able to. make it a truly engaging story. is obviously a pretty pretty serious feat of storytelling.
Chris: Yes, oh, it's I mean... I think that's what you were getting at. It's to me. virtually entirely built on his writing is so compelling even fairly regular days.
Chris: Yeah, I mean he's got like... i mean you can eat the language with a spoon right like it's so tangible, um
Chris: Yeah, i mean I also think that the way that it's written So being in that like vignette style. is interesting because I think that he has probably like a lot of poets or short story writers.
Chris: His imagination seems to be very focused. Hmm. You know, there's not this giant overarching like he's not you know creating middle earth yep right like yeah isn't his imagination is just in this one moment and he's like a mastered intuiting maybe hidden motives or just kind of the deeper meanings in like very normal things.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: But in my mind, that if you're writing a whole memoir on vignette, it's a powerful... tool but it's almost like okay but like how much are we leaving out here you know because i think there is Just that's by the nature.
Chris: the vignette you're just looking at little snapshots like he's there to tell his story right but now i'm curious about what was happening between you know i think he does a good job of kind you know connecting them they don't feel so separate obviously yes i agree
Nate Day: Yeah. That was interesting.
Chris: Yeah, I think style is good.
Chris: I love it.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Well, and it has to be right Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Like. Yeah, no matter how good your writing is, if you're going literally... diary entry style. over this quantity of years. First of all, it'd be 3000 pages, but that would inherently not be interesting.
Nate Day: right Right.
Chris: Which is I imagine why his own memoirs are broken up the way they are.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I don't think you could stand for this to be much longer than it was. Yeah. And he wrote another one too after this. So he... yeah I guess after his time, I guess the movie ends where he gets into the school, right?
Nate Day: Yep.
Chris: um And then it kind of gives his little... so you know life summary at the end there it says he gets Kicked out of that school, joins the you know does a tour in Vietnam.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: He wrote a memoir about that. um as well called in pharaoh's army so he kind of like you know, two memoirs and like, you know, by the time he's probably 40. Five. Yeah. Maybe even earlier. that's How many more can you do, you know? Although that is crazy. I mean, growing up in the 50s, he didn't publish this until almost 1990.
Chris: Yeah, so it was four decades later.
Nate Day: I mean, it takes time to connect all those dots, right?
Chris: Hello.
Nate Day: To be like, oh, this moment was sort of similar to this moment, even though they were.
Chris: Yeah. Mmm.
Nate Day: filled with different people and different things were happening. You know what I mean? Like, we don't we don't look at our lives that way.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: You know?
Chris: No. I can't remember this many individual scenes.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: from my life at that age.
Nate Day: Yeah. I know. That's what I was thinking, too, is like, how does he know? We all have had profound learning experiences with. in our lives. Right? And. some of them are maybe cinematic some of them are Probably not. Most likely not. but how did How did he pull that?
Nate Day: out of his... life you know how did he do that retrospectively
Chris: Yup.
Nate Day: that's so again considering he didn't Explode into... you know, the creator of barbie or the you know, the guy that sings Man in the Mirror or whatever.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: he was able to look back and be like this is how I got here Because of this bizarre experience with a stepdad and this bizarre experience with this kid in town and this bizarre thing with my step. sister. You know, whatever.
Chris: Yeah, I think there's also a bit where Ah. to do the story justice maybe he his writing level wasn't there until i do know that like just from other stuff i've looked into him about like he did publish a novel maybe in his early 30s and like has since rescinded it like you can't get it like he just is like don't read this so i wonder if you know
Chris: I've also heard it said that like if you want to write anything good, throw out anything you wrote before you were like 30. I wonder if there's a bit of... maturity not only in like looking back and kind of having the hindsight to look clearly but the maturity in the writing that he thought would do the story justice you know
Nate Day: Totally. i mean I wonder, do you know if he has... Kids of his own.
Chris: I don't. I'm sure, but I'm not sure.
Nate Day: Yeah, I... um I mean, i I just imagine with a text. like this one or a story like this one that having kids of your own you'd probably look back and be like oh my god Like.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: No wonder I was so screwed up or or whatever, because my stepdad, my father figure was like beating the crap out of me all the time. You know what I mean? That might not. Those kinds of things might not come up until you realize that you're not beating the crap out of your kids.
Nate Day: you know, fingers crossed, hopefully.
Chris: Totally. Three children. Yes, three.
Nate Day: Yep. See? So that means marriage too, probably, which he you know only had a back...
Chris: Okay.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: Backseat. view of. Yeah. Interesting stuff.
Chris: Yeah, how do you be a good spouse with this as the model growing up? That's crazy I mean, I guess we have no proof he's a good spouse, but...
Nate Day: Yeah, that's that's true.
Chris: is still alive. Maybe he'll hear this and tell us. Okay.
Nate Day: Maybe.
Chris: um Well, that's that's. That's all I've got for the book. is i've got i have Any other points I want to touch on are much more question -based for y 'all.
Nate Day: Great. Okay, well, let's take a quick break, and we will be... Right back.
Nate Day: Welcome back to adaptation. Chris and Josh just gave us a great rundown of. This Boy's Life by Tobias Wolff. I'm going to talk quickly about the movie.
Nate Day: But I just wanted to... Double check. I think you mentioned, Josh, you've seen the movie. a couple of times.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: Yep, yep.
Nate Day: And Chris, you have not, right? I assume.
Chris: Obvious. Does the Pope shit in the woods? Okay.
Nate Day: i'm not even gonna answer that.
Chris: No, he doesn't
Nate Day: um Yeah.
Chris: Tobias Wolf said it. It's canon now.
Nate Day: Well, the Pope is like 100 years old and he lives in the most expensive castle ever built. So no, he doesn't shit in the.
Chris: The Pope is like 45 and he's from Chicago.
Nate Day: woods
Chris: He's undoubtedly shat in some woods.
Nate Day: Well... Maybe. um That's true. I forgot we have it. There you go. Pope. Um, Anyway. I'm trying to think of a segue, but I don't have one here.
Nate Day: um
Chris: good
Nate Day: the The film adaptation of this book was released in 1993, written by a guy named Robert Getchell and directed by Michael Caton -Jones. I tried to look into Caton -Jones' filmography to figure out why this was an appealing story to him, but I couldn't.
Nate Day: I'm not familiar with a lot of his work, so I couldn't really... nail it down. It seemed like maybe he was kind of like a dude's dude director. So the story, this. the The movie is very much framed.
Nate Day: as sort of a fraught relationship between a father and son. father -ish and son. So maybe that's what it...
Chris: Stay here.
Nate Day: drew out of out of kate and jones um and i say all of that because i'm just kind of you've mentioned a few specific things that are not in the movie at all and i'm wondering Josh, how you feel?
Nate Day: the movie is as an adaptation because it sounds like it's maybe quite a bit different than the book.
Chris: yeah Um, Asos. Thinking about coming on the podcast here, I was... kind of thinking about how difficult it is to
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: translate his writing onto a one the TV, right, or the film.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: uh because there is
Nate Day: Sure.
Chris: I think like. Yeah, not every vignette is so interesting.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: or if it is from like a Maybe it is on like a writing level. but it wouldn't translate to... the screen, you know, so.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I think that they definitely stuck to the the storyline. and pulled out what needed to be pulled out. uh sure there's a lot of like little nuggets of the vignettes that are missing, but...
Chris: No, i think I think they did it. Just as so.
Nate Day: Okay. That's good to know. I was just surprised when you guys started saying that the book was a series of vignettes because I was like, that's not really, I guess you could describe the movie that way. But i get i mean I guess you could describe a lot of movies that way.
Nate Day: way you know to to some degree so so i was just like wow that's that's really interesting that they um
Chris: just
Nate Day: you know, kind of... stepped away from that for the movie. Anyway, starred Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro as the... son and... stepfather. Ellen Barkin plays Leo's mom. Chris Cooper is one of the um ex -boyfriends who i I have to assume is sort of an amalgamation of all of the abusive men that the mom dated between
Chris: Uh...
Nate Day: the marriage. her marriage is. And then there's a quick cameo by Tobey Maguire as well. ah before he was like well before he this was also leo's breakout role so um kind of interesting to pair them with De Niro and Ellen Barkin who, and well, and Chris Cooper to a degree too, who were kind of representative.
Nate Day: of like the previous generation of of great actors and um famous people and then They pair him with these unknown kids, particularly Leo. uh who had just kind of cleans the floor with them i can't believe how good le leonardo dicaprio is in this movie
Chris: Really?
Nate Day: Oh, he's so...
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. In fact, the first... maybe 10 minutes of this movie. I was like, oh, God, this is so bad because he's so. chipper do you know a part i'm talking about josh it's like before it's there he and his mom are in um
Chris: Yes. Yeah.
Nate Day: Arizona or something they're just trying to yeah they're just trying to find somewhere to live and everything is so sunny and chipper
Chris: Like Utah, I think they were Yeah. Oh, that's right. She wanted to find. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Nate Day: And I was like, this is a really bizarre role for... Leo and I know that obviously he's very young here, but He doesn't really play like the upbeat. dude very much so I was like oh god this sucks and then pretty much on a dime it turns and I was like there it is there's the real movie and and all of that was played up like it was supposed to be sort of cringy to see
Chris: Yeah.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: Him play. this kid that like sang show tunes with his mom.
Chris: Totally. Hmm.
Nate Day: Anyway. um This was filmed when Leo was...
Chris: He had to be super young, right?
Nate Day: 17 when it was filmed yeah and um
Chris: Oh sorry. Wow Yeah.
Nate Day: It was his first. leading role in a film. um Later the same year, He would also star in... What's eating Gilbert Grape? um
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: which those two movies were sort of a one -two punch that solidified him as like The next big thing in Hollywood, there are two.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: unbelievable performances. What's Eating Gilbert Grape is a little bit problematic because he's playing somebody with some mental disabilities and we look at all of that differently now than we did in... ninety three But at the time, a lot of people looked at it and said, this kid has serious range.
Chris: Yeah. Yep.
Nate Day: He can play. Gilbert Grape and this
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: tobias wolf who was kind of like a dirt bag you know what i mean he was like a
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: A shithead in the 50s. And then, of course. Also notable for for putting DiCaprio on screen with De Niro for the first time. They would go on to star in many movies together.
Nate Day: um and same actually with toby mcguire the only reason i i really He's such a small part in the movie. The only reason I mention him is because he and Leo have worked together a few times and are famously...
Nate Day: best friends and that all began. here on the set of This Boy's Life, which is kind of cool.
Chris: oh Hmm.
Nate Day: Um. So the memoir was optioned shortly after it was published, like you mentioned. Chris. And Warner Brothers almost pulled the plug on it because they were nervous about...
Nate Day: putting a story about that it's so confrontational about child abuse. that they were like there's no way this thing is gonna appeal to anybody and anyone's going to want to come see this movie. but the director, Caden Jones, pushed really hard for it, and he had some...
Nate Day: poll because he had directed a few. successful movies beforehand quote -unquote successful so they they went through with it. um And it was filmed on location in concrete Washington.
Nate Day: which was sort of retrofitted to look like the 1950s.
Chris: wow
Nate Day: um And then... They like used people in the town as extras. So it was. ah Very. sort of authentic. filmmaking. process considering it was
Chris: ahead
Nate Day: you know shot in 92. Um, Just like Warner Brothers predicted, it did pretty poorly at the box office, but the reviews were mostly positive. um particularly for the performances from Leo and...
Nate Day: de niro like i said this was part the like the first step in Leo being instantly cemented as like a megawatt Hollywood star. which is why um Timothy Chalamet gets a lot of.
Nate Day: uh, you know, comparisons to Leo because he was. also in his late teens when he had several big roles in big movies that
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: didn Like...
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: we're ah critically lauded. um And I wanted to give an extra shout out too to... uh the fact that De Niro's performance was so well received because um He's an actor, especially now, that's known for leaning into his persona.
Nate Day: so much and including like his own accent and uh body language and things like that. And he really sort of flips it on its head. This is known as one of his more distinctive performances because he uses this.
Nate Day: bizarre accent in the movie. I don't know. I was like, this this character is clearly not from concrete washington based on the accent it sounds like sort of a delco accent if you ask me but um Just really.
Nate Day: Uh, Kind of interesting to just see him swing. for the fences and of course, like make it work because he's Robert De Niro. Um,
Chris: Who is, does he play Dwight? Yeah. Okay.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. So... That's pretty much it. The movie is a little bit, we've talked about this a few times where a movie kind of gets like lost to time. because there's just so much other stuff including other movies starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro to sort of bury this one.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: But but it's what it's most known for is is really launching.
Chris: awesome
Nate Day: Leo's career as like a superstar. hector So that's kind of cool.
Chris: and i had Until Josh mentioned it, I had never heard.
Nate Day: but
Chris: of this title by any means, but not even... Wolf himself.
Nate Day: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned this later in my... um review but outside of the performances the movie is kind of like nothing Special. I mean, the story is great, like I said, but I'm not like...
Nate Day: You know, I wasn't like this is the most beautifully shot movie I've ever seen or this is the
Chris: who
Nate Day: Coolest. ah you know, most 1950s looking movie ever or whatever, you know, nothing quite like that. So I can see how. Especially, like I said, with everything that got piled on top of it the years to come. you know leo This was Leo's first movie of even that year.
Nate Day: So. I can see how it sort of. has faded away a little bit. But let's jump into our discussion questions. What do you guys got?
Chris: Yeah. um well Do you have anyone to lead with, Josh? No. I'll answer. Great. um Okay. First one for me, I was thinking this. Probably halfway through, did either of you have a favorite, like one of the smaller episodic stories that stuck out to you most?
Chris: I already know Josh's answer, but I want him to explain it anyway.
Nate Day: Okay, well you go Josh while I try to think because like I said the movie was not structured that way.
Chris: Yeah, I mean when you read the book, there's definitely definite chapters. They definitely seem together. So it's not like pure short little vignettes. True. You can tell that he thinks in that way.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: Ah. There's one where he's... I think Dwight is driving him somewhere. And they cross this river. Um, and they stop because Dwight wants to get out and show him the salmon that are coming up the river to spawn.
Chris: Um, and as you guys know they come from the uh like either a big body of water they come up the rivers to spawn and they're gonna die up there Um,
Chris: And I think that this author makes this connection with these salmon that are running up the river and dying. in this foreign place that they don't live. And he was putting that together. As he looked at these he describes the salmon with their flesh half ripped off because they kind of just disintegrate up there in the river uh so these salmon have like flesh coming off their sides and they're just kind of waving in the current right and That's like how he ends one of the chapters.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Um, And it's... a pretty like Dismal view but for whatever reason Whether it's just The metaphor. um or the way that he wrote it just kind of stuck with me as I read.
Chris: you know the rest of the the book So that's that's one that instantly comes to mind for me.
Nate Day: That's cool. I wish some of that stuff had made it into the movie, you know, some more like. real visual language i think could have really benefited the movie Especially, like I said, because this is not Tobias Wolff is not a famous guy to most people.
Nate Day: So some some things like that would have helped me kind of.
Chris: Mm -hmm
Nate Day: wrap my head around why this was a movie. Do you have a favorite, Chris?
Chris: You know what? Actually, I did not when I wrote the question down, but as he was describing it, I do remember distinctly one turning point. Because the whole time you're like...
Chris: man, these people are like, this kid just can't catch a break. His mom is not putting him in good situations. All of these people suck. And then I distinctly remember.
Chris: Um, in the Boy Scout Convention. he had brought ah he He was in the swimming competition, so he used that as an excuse to have like an overnight bag.
Chris: of his stuff for that. but instead he had brought stuff to run away from home. And he and his buddy were going to leave.
Nate Day: Oh. Oh wow.
Chris: And then during that... And... He... described himself as having developed this skill of like working the room And meeting these guys from the other troops and making all these connections. What do these connections mean? You're 16 in Washington. This means nothing. And he gets so distracted by that.
Chris: That they don't follow through with the plan and don't run away
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And I was... Furious. I was so excited for him to finally get out from under Dwight's thumb. uh you know the offer to move to france for an extended period of time same thing said no Because the entire time I'm like 100 % on his side.
Chris: And I'm so mad at all of these people that are making this poor kid's life miserable. And I'm like.
Nate Day: hu
Chris: You're freaking doing it to yourself, dude. Uh...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: So that was. challenging. um very quickly to step back and go, oh boy. Why am I so mad at, uh... this.
Nate Day: A kid.
Chris: Not fictional. 12 year old, a real 12 year old who experienced this 70 years ago.
Nate Day: Yeah. Funny.
Chris: Boy that one was brutal too. I was so I would like Genuinely angry.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: I can see why.
Chris: i Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah, I don't...
Chris: Oh boy.
Nate Day: i don't really have like i said the movie wasn't really set up at Like. in this vignette way where it's like here is where I learned a lesson. Here was an impactful moment.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: um Excuse me. It's more. kind of just the story of of him and his mom. Uh, Mostly. when they meet Dwight and and then up until he gets accepted to the school.
Nate Day: So I guess I would have to say that my my favorite moment.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: Okay. hey Excuse me. My favorite moment was. Probably when he... was accepted to the school just because he finally was going to get out.
Nate Day: Sort of the same thing that you're talking about in that story.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: He's finally going to get out, and everything that he's been through would have been... I don't know if worth it is the right way to put it. but would have amounted to a better life, a better future.
Chris: mm -hmm
Nate Day: and And that's exactly where the movie ends because I want to... ah To feel happy when you walk out of this movie about. child abuse. So it's kind of the only like reprieve that you get.
Chris: OOFTA Not how the book ends.
Nate Day: Yeah. No?
Chris: No, that's crazy.
Nate Day: Yeah, well like I said it There aren't. I mean there aren't many stories about child abuse. like
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: on you know camera right like we talked about that a little bit with precious Like, how do you...
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Say that you enjoyed this. story.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: And the movie is very much more about that.
Chris: I mean, it's it. The book is a fucking downer.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Hmm. It is deeply unpleasant.
Nate Day: I'm sure.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. Um, Okay, I had a... interesting question come up while I was watching. epiny Is one of the themes... uh Like. throughout the book.
Nate Day: Is there any... stuff about like sexual repression in there because there were a few scenes in the movie where i was like what are you trying to say right now specifically around Sex.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: End. like sexual identities and things like that.
Chris: I don't think so. um
Nate Day: No.
Chris: i know what you're talking about it's that kid from town right and they kind of like
Nate Day: There's a scene with the stepdad too, but...
Chris: I think he first calls him a homo, right?
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Oh, before, yes. um I think that there's a, it's. to me it's almost like a Sam and Frodo kind of thing. You're going to hate me for saying that. but No, no, I can see it. I see the vision.
Chris: But I think there's like a... genuine connection there that maybe supersedes some of that. I don't know how innocent, you know, a 15 or 16 year old.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: minded I mean, I can remember what mine was. But... and I think there was like such a hunger for genuine connection. and There's such an identity crisis that this kid is going through with having fractured families
Nate Day: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: um no real stability i think that it's almost like he latched onto the first thing that felt real, you know?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I don't know.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I don't remember exactly the other, like with the stepdad though, but.
Nate Day: does The, uh... So the reason I thought that like so if if either of these scenes had happened... Separate? Like, alone? It would not have crossed my mind. But the fact that both scenes made it into the final cut of the movie. Made me feel like...
Nate Day: They were maybe trying to draw some connection. But the scene that Josh is talking about, Chris, is...
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: um Toby and I forget the kid in town who is Okay. are like playing piano together.
Chris: I know. Alistar or something
Nate Day: and the It does start with an A. Or maybe his last name does. I don't know. um But he leans over and he kisses. Toby on the cheek and Toby kind of just.
Chris: Right.
Nate Day: It's like. okay and keep plunking around on the piano like he doesn't get weirded out.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: But there's also a scene where the the stepfather, Dwight, is having sex with The mother, whose name I can't remember.
Chris: Oh. Yes.
Nate Day: And. Shh. She... How do I say this without being... crazy explicit she basically says that she wants to turn around and look at him while they they have sex and he's like i don't like it that way And I was like.
Nate Day: You don't?
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: like to look at your wife while you have sex with her and so like i said just because those two things were in the movie I was kind of like, is this trying to say something or?
Nate Day: and like completely missing the mark because it's too scared to follow through
Chris: Oh, I should spin.
Nate Day: or
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: is Was that just a weird...
Chris: I took that more of...
Nate Day: You know, again, this was 93. This was the early 90s, so we didn't really...
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: know and think about. sex and and sexual relationships the way that we do now. So it could have been. a a total accident but i just thought it was kind of odd that both of those scenes made it in Because there were two guys that sort of seemed to be...
Nate Day: i don't I don't know, exploring things or not exploring things?
Chris: uha Mm hmm.
Nate Day: It was just very interesting to me that those We're both there.
Chris: And the Dwight scene's not in the book.
Nate Day: That doesn't surprise me. I think it was meant to... to display how um aggressive he could be.
Chris: Uh huh.
Nate Day: Uh...
Chris: That makes sense.
Nate Day: Because he basically like... But... I mean, it's it's probably. a Rape technically legally speaking he kind of like held her down and didn't let her
Chris: oh
Nate Day: you know, see anything. so I'm sure it was supposed to show his aggression, but...
Chris: Uh huh.
Nate Day: It was just followed so closely by that little. Peck on the cheek scene that I was like, what? What is this movie? What is this story?
Chris: Uh -huh Yeah, I interpret interpreted that.
Nate Day: cause so it's Because it's not about sex, you know?
Chris: No, not at all not at all. I didn't even think about it as repression. and I was thinking about it more in terms of... Um... Like power, the need for power.
Nate Day: Yeah. Sure.
Chris: Because I think when you see Dwight... Right like he clearly isn't happy with where he is in life. He always is talking about like oh you're rich daddy you know and your prep school brother Like I think he's got this chip on his shoulder to those who maybe life had.
Chris: You know given a more favorable hand um And I saw that. seen in particular kind of as this like Need for power over you and over you know i can take control of this situation in any way i can because i don't have you know
Nate Day: Everybody. Yeah.
Chris: control of much else you know
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: um But yeah. but I think it's different for the... the end scene with the two boys, right? I think that's a different...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: play there, but...
Nate Day: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I like that read, though.
Chris: That I mean that one That one was in the book, and I thought it was going to be like this.
Nate Day: Makes more sense.
Chris: Sexual awakening thing?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And then he, like, never talks about his penis again the rest of the book.
Nate Day: venis What are you doing?
Chris: Like. I mean, and there there's no other like sexual...
Nate Day: What are you talking about his penis? Oh, okay Okay.
Chris: I think... uh it's alluded to briefly like twice talking about his friends making lewd comments about girls
Nate Day: Oh yeah, they do do a lot of that in the movie.
Chris: But it's almost... but But especially because of how clearly careful and deliberate he is with his writing, the lack of anything sexual in a memoir about a teenage boy was...
Chris: almost louder to me. Because you're like unless you were just like asexual for that decade.
Nate Day: Sure. Well, he...
Chris: This is kind of confusingly little.
Nate Day: Yeah. I also thought... The other thing that really or the other reason it really kind of made my head spin is because When... Toby meets Dwight's kids? They sort of like linger on the older daughter.
Nate Day: a little bit, the camera does.
Chris: Yes. yeah
Nate Day: And so I was like, oh, he's going to have a crush on this girl all and that's going to be how he learns about the world. And then that's not explored in the movie at all either. So I was like, what?
Chris: ever again.
Nate Day: What is happening with the...
Chris: No, I think yeah
Nate Day: So...
Chris: Think there's like one scene when he was just like figure out right but like but But described in extraordinary detail.
Nate Day: attraction here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: Oh, in the book.
Nate Day: Oh really?
Chris: Yeah. I mean, in the book, you can picture this girl. I mean, if.
Nate Day: Yeah. Okay.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Interesting.
Chris: You know it's common, if ah the memoir about a teenager, right?
Nate Day: It is a teenage boy thing.
Chris: like You know it's common.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: um
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: That's what I mean. I expected. But I think it also shows you how so much is learned. Like even the movie. uh this struck me last time i read it or watched it um the Previous.
Chris: Father figure that Roy, I think his name was. Yes. Yep
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: he like kind of meets up with the mom in utah and they kind of you know, go at it a little bit.
Nate Day: Mm -hmm.
Chris: And he was like, Like, oh, you just make my dick so hard, right? Yep. and then later on when toby was like I think him and his buddies smoking cigarettes, you know watching a movie and he was like saying that to the screen as like
Nate Day: Mm -hmm
Nate Day: They watch Superman. Yeah.
Chris: Just something that was like it's something that he caught implicitly just like this is how I need to think about
Nate Day: And he's saying it to Lois Lane.
Chris: uh right now so i think there's like There's a bunch of themes. with what is passed down to you, what isn't passed down to you, what's not there to be passed down to you.
Nate Day: Yeah. Right, exactly, yeah.
Chris: but Um... This is where I think he has there's just layers.
Nate Day: So, mate, yeah.
Chris: Yeah
Nate Day: Yeah, interesting Okay, what else you guys got?
Chris: Yeah. um All right. You two ready to unpack this with me? let's do it
Nate Day: Sure.
Chris: So I kept thinking about... What is it? I am just so averse. Nate, you and I have actually both of you. I've had separate multiple conversations many times. I.
Chris: Hate. Bullies in stories. Hmm.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I just can't stand it. I'm like, get out of there, leave. What are you doing? And obviously they just stay in it because if the story was, oh, I got bullied, so I left. That's not a story and no one writes that.
Nate Day: Yeah
Chris: ah So. This is so dumb. Why did I think this was a cool way to write it? Facing the big bad wolf elephant in the room. so I want your genuine assessment.
Nate Day: Big and bad.
Chris: I mean, my personal personal aversion here is the example, but my question more so is. What the heck is going on? Why do people enjoy this in fiction? And why do I say I again?
Chris: Hope there are others out there who feel similarly. Like, is this the... We enjoy murder mysteries because it's like this macabre. thing that will never actually experience i mean that can't be the case we've all experienced bullying Uh,
Chris: And at the same time, why am I so averse to it? I see this daily. i mean we fucking live in new york a sub at a middle school it is everywhere but then i see it in fiction and i'm just like no get me out of here and so psychoanalyze
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: what is What is happening here, gentlemen?
Nate Day: what I think. Okay. It is similar to the murder mystery, I think, in in that... Usually. You see the bully. learn a lesson right like the bully ends up losing
Chris: Uh.
Nate Day: whether whether they lose whatever it is that Thanks. them want to bully other people or they literally lose in in terms of like they're the bad guy of the story. So the, you know,
Nate Day: the story. works out so the antagonist loses. So I think that there's a lot of... um We get a lot of satisfaction of satisfaction out of that. right watching somebody that's Like, bad.
Nate Day: Eat shit one way or another. I think that's a huge part of it.
Chris: Yeah, yeah
Nate Day: But ah as far as why you hate it in a story. I don't. I don't know. I mean... were you Were you severely bullied? Like, is it triggering?
Chris: okay ah
Nate Day: I mean... ah You're a big kid. I have a hard time believing that people were like fucking around with you too bad You know?
Chris: Oh, yeah. but i was a big kid in the wrong way at that age like yeah i was obese in middle school
Nate Day: Well... I mean your body's changing a lot. But I mean, like. mor I don't know. You said psychoanalyze. and
Chris: Yeah, no, I see. I see. No.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: Maybe.
Nate Day: I don't know, I mean it's...
Chris: But that's what I mean. there There are still bullies in daily life no matter what. Like, I acknowledge that. like in I mean it's not like I like to see bullying in real life.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: But there's there's no there's no, like... I mean if you're willing to dig in and observe. closely, like, yeah, no one. hates Dwight more than Dwight.
Chris: in this story. Yeah, clearly he's not living this great life because he's a bully. i derive no satisfaction from that end of the day he's still treating it 12 year old. like A dog.
Chris: yeah
Nate Day: Oh yeah.
Chris: Well, not like a dog. No one would treat a dog that way. even
Nate Day: Hopefully. Well, he gets his ass kicked.
Chris: You're the deaf.
Nate Day: I mean...
Chris: He does.
Nate Day: kind of fun Kind of fun to watch a 17 -year -old kick.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: his ass. You know?
Chris: Yeah. I think there's...
Chris: So they're also... I don't know, just the content. You're like, why would you anybody write this? I think there is the type of literature that... maybe is a comfort from the world.
Chris: And I can escape the world and come to this. I think this type of literature.
Chris: It doesn't do that at all. It doesn't let you hide. No. You know, it paints it. probably clearer than you might be able to see it. And I think. I'll speak confirm for me. The reason that I love this stuff, even as dark and sometimes depressing as it is, is I think it does push me back into the world.
Chris: ah Like a different like if I have A percent more compassion for you now that I, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody I see on the street, little shithead kid. Like smoking his cigarettes and you know
Nate Day: huh
Chris: Like if I have one more percent compassion for you I think that's a win. I think, is it an easy read? No. Is it like something you probably should only read? No. Mike, I think you got it.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay, okay, okay. Huh. But I think for me, it it doesn't. I don't come to it as an escape, I come to it... To illumine my life, you know, in a sense. And I think that.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: um over and over with. With Tobias Wolff, I think he... does that in a way that makes me want to lean in. And, you know. when i pass them on the street or whatever i just kind of it just is there i'm like oh i just You know, and maybe that's the point.
Chris: I don't know or maybe it's just
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Grotesque for being grotesque. safe That's just kind of my the way that I... Think about it. wow
Nate Day: No, that's cool. I think there's also
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Especially the older you get, I think there's a really deep understanding of the psychology behind bullying, right? Someone is usually bullying somebody else because things are not going well for them. Like you said, nobody hates Dwight more.
Chris: Uh huh.
Nate Day: than Dwight so it's a good piece of characterization to just say that like
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: There's a lot going on. here you know what i mean we don't know anything about dwight's life
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: First Life. Right? Or wife, I guess.
Chris: True. No Genesis story. yeah
Nate Day: And I don't know what is. Dad was like, you know, his dad could have beat him up. So maybe this is what he does. I don't know if he beats up his other kids. That's not mentioned at all in the movie. i mean i'm i'm pretty sure it's not.
Chris: Yeah, not at all. yeah true
Nate Day: He doesn't. um but I think it's a good way of... sort of signaling to us who Dwight is without giving us ah like a full backstory because this is Toby's story.
Nate Day: And it's how... Dwight's story affected Toby's story Right.
Chris: uh -huh Uh huh.
Nate Day: But that's a lot to squeeze into one.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: memoir set over the course of Five years? Six years?
Chris: And not a terribly long text in and of itself.
Nate Day: Sure.
Chris: then actually can fail. No, I don't think anything he's ever written is long it's is Cut. The gift of brevity, for sure. He's a punchy boy.
Nate Day: Um,
Chris: Yeah, like exactly 300 pages.
Nate Day: Okay. Yeah, interesting. Does that help you? Do you feel like you know yourself a little better now, Chris?
Chris: and You know what? I honestly do. And.
Nate Day: Good.
Chris: I'm gonna go do some thinking when you guys leave.
Nate Day: Okay. Well, my next question is kind of a simple one, and I don't know if there is an answer, but this is probably the right crowd to ask. Is there a difference between an autobiography and a memoir? what Why is this a memoir?
Nate Day: instead of an autobiography.
Chris: ah
Chris: Joshua? Nothing comes to mind maybe stylistic choice of how you're gonna write it
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Maybe it's just another fancy... Literature word for it. I know what do you think? I see. so I... um As you know, Nate, I try not to spoil myself.
Chris: I don't look at your discussion questions when I went to put mine in the show notes. I did see this one. So I tried to think about it a little bit.
Nate Day: Okay, great.
Chris: The comparison I have in mind, trying to exclude this one, but it very much... Matches this. small sample size.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: An autobiography and a memoir that I enjoyed both of tremendously were The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. And. Sally Fields memoirs.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: Yep.
Chris: And the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. to me Um, autobiography of malcolm x which as we discussed during roots was not truly an autobiography um i think also would match this template to me it feels like Here are the parts I want to share. Here are the messages that I want you to derive from it.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: And a memoir feels like... Here's what fucking happened.
Nate Day: That's a cool distinction.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: Yeah, so it's sort of like take what you can.
Chris: And I have no idea.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, yeah. I don't know if that's technical or like... in terms of the literary field more broadly i'm sure there are examples That would not fit it, but in. In what I've personally read, that has been the case.
Nate Day: Yeah. but
Chris: So it seems like there's... The free, like the... the um the memoir may lend itself to being misunderstood. ah Ah, yeah, if you leave it open for interpretation. Yeah, I think especially what' the with... learning Tobias's writing.
Chris: He's totally cool with being I mean, I think he has things that he hits on the nose pretty hard
Nate Day: Mm -hmm.
Chris: But I think he leaves some things... A few layers under. But if you... Don't see it Like, you're just going to misunderstand. And I think that he's okay with that tension.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: um Which... ah Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: So it's almost a little more artful than a...
Chris: I mean, yeah, Franklin's not over it, clearly. do
Nate Day: It's a little more artful as opposed to like historical Right? Like when you say I like the biography the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.
Chris: I don't know why I...
Nate Day: I am. in my head i'm saying i'm never going to read that because that sounds like the most boring Like.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: the making of the man type. texts that I could have ever Imagine. You know what I mean? but But when you say the memoir of Sally Fields...
Chris: Okay, well first of all, you'd be wrong.
Nate Day: I just. I don't know I just disagree just based on the name. which is what i'm getting Which is what I'm getting at.
Chris: ah
Nate Day: Right? And then you say the memoir of Sally Fields.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: And I'm like, oh, man, this lady that like set the tone in in television, which meant cultural table setting for decades, and then went on to do the same thing in movies.
Chris: Mm -hmm.
Nate Day: And then she was. you know, Aunt May because she was everybody's aunt. Like, of course I want to hear what she learned about life. me But Ben Franklin is like a lawmaker and a scientist. And like, you know, it's a little bit more.
Nate Day: foundation It's not as fluffy. Right?
Chris: oh not at all yes yes that's that is exactly what i was getting at yes
Nate Day: It's like... Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Chris: uh first of all phenomenal book it's like a tight 90 pages i try to read it once a year But. That aside. That's been, in my experience, the takeaway. Hmm.
Nate Day: Cool.
Chris: I mean, especially in autobiography, first first and foremost, I think your first assessment was correct, Josh. I think the author just picks which one they want to call it, right?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Sure. But I think in somehow there's like an implication in Memoir of... You're just getting the glimpse in I'm just going to show you what happened. There's no i don't even want to say ulterior motive but no agenda no Like, yes, you're correct, Nate.
Chris: Benjamin Franklin's autobiography. He is clearly presenting. Here are the things I did.
Nate Day: Yeah, he's fucking Benjamin Franklin.
Chris: in parentheses that I think you should do.
Nate Day: Of course he wrote an autobiography instead of...
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: Again, this non -famous guy.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: was like, here's how I learned the lessons I learned, and I think they're good lessons.
Chris: Yep. Yep. Yeah. So I... i have no idea if technically that's correct but Hmm.
Nate Day: Well, for the purposes of this podcast, it is
Chris: I'm going to say we we got it in one. and Yep.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: yep and we're always correct and infallible
Nate Day: Great.
Chris: Good. Amazing question. I'm glad you had that in there.
Nate Day: I think I lost your audio, Chris.
Chris: Um,
Nate Day: Can you hear me still?
Chris: Oh. Yes, can you hear me?
Nate Day: Hold on.
Chris: Did I bump this? i don't think so We still have a sound wave. Oh no, it's on his end.
Chris: All right, while they're doing that. I need to... Thank you. Has someone want to say? And then... Twice. I forgot. it fine So maybe it's not important.
Nate Day: I don't know what...
Chris: Aw, nuts.
Nate Day: Can you hear me now?
Chris: Oh. oh Yes.
Nate Day: I don't know what... just happened i think my Bluetooth disconnected, but that's crazy.
Chris: That's why I was saying, yeah.
Nate Day: Like I think the headphones weren't even connected to the computer. I mean I don't know what's going on.
Chris: Right, right. No, mine does that too. When I have them Bluetooth to the laptop, they'll just suddenly be like...
Nate Day: Oh, great.
Chris: Hop and ship.
Nate Day: Okay, well... um What else do you guys have? ah Discussion questions, Josh and Chris?
Chris: Did you remember your thing or do you need time? I did remember it. Okay. Josh has a thing.
Nate Day: Great.
Chris: Think I was just saying I think another thing I appreciate about this and this can apply more generally to a lot of gen genres, but is how this work kind of matures with you. I don't know if that's maybe... another slight difference between autobuy autobiography versus memoir if they're just two.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: here's what i want you to know But I think about... like the first time I read, like we talked about. Um... Catch on the rock, you know yeah holden caulfield like a bunch of phonies i'm like 15 years old i'm like yeah everyone is a freaking phony you know um and then i read that later with maybe much more mature eyes now being a father, a husband.
Chris: um and my perspective on his shifts i think that though this work he's trying to He's pulling out themes of identity and power. and um you know childhood upbringing but i i think that it is one that matures with me as well um Like now, I mean, even having Like, since I've watched this last.
Chris: um I watched it. Um, couple years ago and then had my daughter anna and then re -watched it and like you know whole new totally different hu
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: i think it's like that's the mark of such a like a like where you're not vomiting yourself too much onto the page or onto the screen is you're you're leaving it.
Chris: Subtle enough to where it matures with the audience. um i think that that is A very, very fine balance. That's remarkable. I do think that this one has it. Um.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Oh.
Nate Day: I agree. I totally agree.
Chris: I could not see a point in life where I would go back to this text and be like. Yeah. Not doing it anymore. Like I have to imagine.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: in 60 years.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Exactly as you said. Not. not the same parts will stick out. but undoubtedly as many and as profoundly. But it's kind of like those Oscar noms, right?
Chris: Like you watch it and you're like, man, that's one of the most powerful things I've ever seen on the screen. But do I want to rewatch it anytime soon?
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Tough question.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Tough question. Sometimes it's like. Maybe it's like that a bit. Yeah. yeah
Nate Day: Yeah. I hear that. Okay.
Chris: Okay, I'm going to throw you my last question.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: Um, oh never mind no no no skip it we already talked about this
Nate Day: Okay. Um,
Chris: Yeah, never mind.
Nate Day: Great. While you...
Chris: I thought of this as you were talking about it. Would ideal cast be fun for this one?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Is there anyone else you picture, I guess? I mean, it's not that big an ensemble of characters.
Nate Day: Well... I think it's... Pretty important that whoever plays Toby be... Um, Like an unknown. Be unrecognizable.
Nate Day: And that's partly because of the precedent that Leo set, but also partly...
Chris: ah
Nate Day: I think you get to fall in love with this kid despite the fact that he's...
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: Kind of a dirt bag because you don't have any pre -existing notions. about the actor.
Chris: Uh huh.
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: Uh huh.
Nate Day: it's It's obviously really hard to go back and watch this and be like, what did people think of Leonardo DiCaprio in like. May of 1993 or whenever this came out because
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: We didn't. I wasn't alive then. and um but I do think that. Um, That role would have to go to somebody that's not famous and then Dwight is kind of the only other like major, major character.
Nate Day: in the story at least in the movie and it would be cool if it was somebody that was kind of from the the old guard, you know, kind of a different generation of actor.
Chris: Mm -hmm
Nate Day: like Christian Bale or something like that. Somebody that's been around since we were kids.
Chris: Older.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Maybe some white facial hair.
Nate Day: No. Yeah. yeah
Chris: maybe was famously the dad in a motorcycle drama
Nate Day: Yeah. Yeah, Chris is Chris is hard pitching Ron Perlman, believe it or not. for
Chris: He would be so good.
Nate Day: He's way too old.
Chris: Ron Perlman would be so good.
Nate Day: He's way too old.
Chris: Disagree Disagree.
Nate Day: Well. Okay. um
Chris: i'm
Nate Day: Do you have any thoughts?
Chris: I think... Venera was is the choice.
Nate Day: I think so too.
Chris: Nope, it's 30 years later. He just fits the bill. Yeah, but if you're doing it right now, in the year or in 2026.
Nate Day: McConaughey. Kind of an actor from a previous generation.
Chris: Oh, interesting. name.
Nate Day: And I could believe him being a.
Chris: Hmm.
Nate Day: Piece of shit.
Chris: could absolutely do sleazy.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I don't know there's like this blue -collar Cripp. that that yeah That McConaughey doesn't have. Yeah, yeah You know who I would want to see as the mom, and I don't know why?
Nate Day: Who?
Chris: Winona Ryder
Nate Day: Oh. Okay.
Chris: The kind of waspy tumbleweed. Uh... Not vapid per se but You know, she was always on such lofty things there in Utah.
Chris: I don't know if this was in the movie. They're in Utah because she's got this harebrained scheme that they are going to buy a Geiger counter and find uranium and get rich.
Nate Day: Yeah. That is super briefly, but yeah, that is in the... In the movie.
Chris: Homie, what? You and your 12 year old are just gonna go what dig it up with your hands and say I'll take $100 ,000 for this. Radioactive goo.
Nate Day: I guess.
Chris: There's a bit in which I... admire the heck out of her though you know agreed 100 agreed
Nate Day: Yeah. Oh yeah. And I thought.
Chris: Like trying to make anything out of a life yes for her kids, right?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: No matter how harebrained that sounds. Absolutely. I don't think I have that courage, you know, to just... take off you know oh yeah yeah you're she i mean the number of times she offered oh you don't like dwight oh we're in a bad situation
Nate Day: Right. She does it twice. Yeah.
Chris: We will pick up. and move to a city Sight unseen. I'll find a job, I'll find housing
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I mean...
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: brutal character so so admirably loyal and Deeply flawed.
Nate Day: Yeah. And I actually thought... um It was really interesting watching the movie and then reading some old reviews and things because Ellen Barkin didn't get many. Shout outs for it. But I thought that she was just.
Nate Day: unbelievable in the movie. She doesn't really have like a scene where you're like holy shit this is the best performance ever but she does this like she plays with the fact like
Chris: all the testimonials.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: She's very intentionally hot. in the movie You know, she's like.
Chris: that was fun
Nate Day: So you buy it. like you were just complaining about how crazy the scheme was to go find whatever mineral chemical whatever the hell that is but you kind of buy it because she plays she's sort of batty and you're like she's obviously
Chris: Mm hmm.
Chris: m
Nate Day: you know sort of coasted on being like a Blonde bombshell. once or twice in her life and is sort of hoping that that luck will come through here too.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: And I thought it was really cool for... Ellen Barkin who It's like... a frigging bulldog, by the way, in terms of her personality to like. um
Chris: Good.
Nate Day: Two. to put that on screen and let herself be seen that way. I was like, that's, that's cool. You know, and it's like that's what a real actor does too.
Chris: Yeah, yeah yeah
Chris: I think that really captured the, like... you mentioned it earlier but when they were in utah and everything like the beginning of the movie you're like oh man this probably b is gonna suck right like it all felt very superficial and almost kind of manic right like there was a very manic kind of energy to the and i think that that
Nate Day: Yeah, yeah Yes. Yes.
Chris: is so intentional right but i think you i think it's like
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: You almost have to be a little manic to come up with that kind of stuff.
Nate Day: Oh yeah.
Chris: 100%.
Nate Day: Fight or flight. Yeah.
Chris: And to keep your kid and let your very teenage son keep him in good spirits, you almost have to be just this.
Chris: a little bit manic right and i think that they did portray that really well
Nate Day: Yeah, and and then like infectiously so. Yeah.
Chris: get it But, you know, right at the beginning of the movie, you're like, oh no.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: This could be...
Nate Day: Right.
Chris: really bad or...
Nate Day: Uh huh.
Chris: and then they quickly just shut that off but
Nate Day: 100%.
Chris: When he gets... I mean, there's ah there' the... um to support. from her. When he gets accepted into the school. She asks him once, what did you tell them?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Because she knows him. She knows you're not getting in there if you were honest. And then when he gets booted out. it said uh He comes back. She takes him to the bar, lets him get piss drunk.
Chris: and they just don't talk about it And it's like, ooh.
Nate Day: Well.
Chris: the Is that a good way to cope with your problems? Objectively, no. But... Is that what her son thought he needed right then? and she said i'm driving he's safe That's what we're doing.
Nate Day: Yeah. And that's how most of her parenting was.
Chris: That's...
Nate Day: You know what I mean?
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: I thought when Roy gave him the... gun which I assume was just a BB gun, but it's so quick, I guess I didn't.
Chris: No, he says it's a 22.
Nate Day: Clock it for sure. It's a real gun.
Chris: That's a gun gun.
Nate Day: She just lets him have it.
Chris: Yep. Mm -hmm.
Nate Day: i would have that would have been taken away from me so quick and i and i never would have seen that adult again if they had you know what i mean like my parents would have been like bye
Chris: Yeah. I thought the exact same thing.
Nate Day: You're not in that kid's life anymore. But she would like She saw how happy it made him and that that was kind of all they have because they're bouncing from place to place and
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: All he's got is like things that make him smile.
Chris: Well and you could hear the machinations in her head.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I mean, maybe I'm projecting it or reading into it too much. But to me reading because I had the same response. I was like, wow your kid just owns a gun now cool lady you can almost hear to me in her thought process of Well...
Chris: If he gets hurt, he's gonna get hurt.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Let him have the gun. You know?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: honestly the one piece that's in the book that's not in the movie with with the gun was do you remember when he uh He's like pointing it out the window at people. And first it's unloaded, you know, and his mom was like, hey, don't point it at people.
Chris: um when he got it but he you know later you see him pointing at people And then he'll load it. And like, just for the extra little bit of. uh -huh i think it goes back to the the power theme we were talking about earlier like he knows he's never going to pull a trigger And he's also in a house.
Nate Day: Mm -hmm
Chris: No, but then he did. He shot a squirrel. Well, I mean like an actual person, but there's like this certain power that you hold over a person. in that kind of thing. I think that there's...
Nate Day: Oh totally.
Chris: event. at that young age, there's that. need for power yeah and i think that's what makes it so
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: poignant is you see it just as much in him as you see it in Dwight. Yes. Yes.
Nate Day: her
Chris: Yes. And it's yeah it's just how it plays out.
Nate Day: That's cool.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: Yeah, and cool subversion of Chekhov's gone too.
Chris: Sorry.
Nate Day: right because it
Chris: Mmm.
Nate Day: that Like... skill with the gun does come into play, but it's... Not in a dangerous way like Chekhov was sort of implying with that. theory but um Yeah, kind of interesting. and and plays into the weird power dynamics too. and and um Dwight's like insecurities.
Nate Day: Right?
Chris: o Turn it.
Nate Day: Cool.
Chris: Alright.
Nate Day: Cool stuff.
Chris: Recommendation. Let's start with Josh. So this is the at our ending, our closing, we do two parts.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay. so first wait am i getting this out of order No, I am getting it out of order.
Nate Day: Oh it doesn't matter. Do whatever you want.
Chris: Rating. Whatever scale you want to consider, what would you rate? You're the only one that's consumed both. So... Movie and book. Separate.
Chris: I'm a little biased because I think that everything he's written is so good.
Nate Day: That's good.
Chris: Correct.
Nate Day: That's yeah that's just fine.
Chris: um
Chris: So I'll give the book. Like eight and a half out of ten Okay.
Nate Day: Sweet.
Chris: I'll give the movie like a... Like a seven. Okay. Okay.
Nate Day: Cool.
Chris: presumably also out of 10. Yeah. Okay. out of town I don't know.
Nate Day: seven out Seven out of five.
Chris: If you had said 7 out of 20, this would be... Yes. A scale of ten smiley face emojis. Okay, ten smiley face emojis.
Nate Day: 10. There we go.
Chris: my Book is eight and a half.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Again, quite morbid. You had to cut a face in half. And I'm just giving some margin. you know i could make it maybe I could maybe make it higher, but who you know I'm not going to give a 10 here. you know How big is that last one smiling?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Okay.
Nate Day: How about you, Chris?
Chris: And then I'll just, I don't think it was as good as the book, so I'll give it a seven fail. yeah
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Well, but it's not a comparison. Each one has its own thing. yeah no kind um I gave this a very firm four.
Nate Day: Okay.
Chris: How do what? Oh, so mine is very specific. My Goodreads, I have strict rules for myself. If I'm going to rate a book under three.
Chris: I just stop reading it and delete it and presume this book was written for someone else, not for me. So three is the lowest I will rate on there. That's just like, this was a book. and then five i will only give to a book that i'm like i know i will reread this
Nate Day: No matter how good or bad it is.
Chris: What's two in one?
Nate Day: Right?
Chris: Yes, yes. That doesn't mean it's because it was that good. Yes, I have a number of linguistics textbooks that are five stars on Goodreads. Not for there.
Nate Day: Linguistic. drugs.
Chris: delightful dialogue.
Nate Day: Sounds like a barrel of laughs. Yeah.
Chris: You know what else is a five out of biography of Benjamin Franklin?
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Oh, yeah, that's a six out of five.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: I think I've read that five or six times. Like there are a few books I've read as many times. It's the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. So three is like. This could be fine. It's just not for me. So I've read...
Chris: i um know A student showed me... that for $3 .99 a month, I can get access. There are all these animes that people have been recommending to me, but they're all based on mangas. And anything I'm going to see that exists in written form, I want to read first. So I'm like, okay, I i know what I need to do. I have to read 700 chapters of Naruto so I can watch it.
Chris: But they're like 20 bucks a pop at Barnes & Noble.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: For $3 .99 a month, I have an app. of that japanese publisher and i have unlimited access to all of them So I read like five of them this last week.
Chris: They're all threes. They're fun. I'm going to keep reading them, but it's not. I'm not. proselytizing for them i'm not going around going you gotta to see the character development on this bad boy. So this was firmly a four.
Chris: Way up. i mean frankly to answer your question this absolutely for the first six chapters was a two Meaning? i I will not rate anything at two on Goodreads. I think that's unfair to the author because I firmly believe.
Chris: books are aimed at. different groups of people if i'm gonna rate it a one That just means I'm not the person this was aimed at. I'm gonna put it down. I'm going to delete it from Goodreads. I'm going to move on with my life. I'm not going to say, oh, wow, your story about the creation of Girl Scout cookies didn't excite me. One star. Fuck you. You know.
Nate Day: That'd probably be a cool book, actually.
Chris: So four for me. Honestly I would read that book.
Nate Day: Yeah. you'd You'd read just about anything.
Chris: Okay. Yes, correct. Now more specifically, recommendations. Who would you recommend?
Nate Day: Hold on hold on I didn't say my rating yet.
Chris: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Rating. Movie.
Nate Day: Um, I gave it a 3 .5 just sort of for the same reasons. I could tell that there was a lot. there and that this movie maybe wasn't. punching quite as hard. Um,
Nate Day: But the performances are so spectacular, and I do love... I didn't know that this was set in the 50s at first for a few. Uh... minutes I mean, it's there are... hints at like people's clothing and stuff but it's not the sort of like wedding cake uh,
Nate Day: extra 50s romantic extravaganza that we often see.
Chris: uh -huh
Nate Day: you know like like grease or something like that when everyone's running around singing and poodle skirts and things um So I really appreciate it.
Chris: Yep.
Nate Day: that sort of grungy depiction of the 50s. I thought it was really kind of cool. um and probably one of the better parts of the movies after the performances but but like i said kind of nothing else really stood out all that much. So...
Nate Day: sort of Sort of middle of the road for me. 3 -5.
Chris: Yeah. i don't I know you already alluded to this, Josh, but the strength of the story to me is the writing. And so that's inherently going to be, at least in some ways, lost.
Chris: putting it on screen.
Nate Day: Totally. Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. like i it It seems nigh impossible to me that it could be a... you know 10 out of 10 knockout in that sense yeah yeah
Nate Day: All right, Chris, what's next?
Chris: Well... Yeah, so recommendations. This is like... A group. Um... A well, entire demographic sounds crazy, but who would you recommend this to?
Chris: That can literally mean an individual you have in mind. That can mean people who enjoy this kind of up for interpretation. Mm hmm. um Who would I recommend this for?
Chris: I think someone who... is a bit intuitive. Okay. um Crazy that you recommended it to me Okay. yeah Maybe this was early on in our friendship. but Before you knew it.
Chris: Um... Someone that's not afraid to dig into like the soft white underbelly of life.
Chris: But I think someone that's not like, just so drawn to the morbid. I think if there is, like... Hope and glimmer like silver threads certain believe themselves into the story if you're willing to see them and find them um So I think there has to be some of that mixed in.
Chris: Yeah. Maybe I should resend my... No I like that.
Nate Day: if
Chris: Well, I ended up loving it, so you were correct.
Nate Day: Yeah. Um,
Chris: All right, Nate Day.
Nate Day: Yeah, I mean I think that's a ah really great recommendation. you know, we've We've talked this whole episode about what... what makes a memoir, right? and I think what makes a successful consumer of a memoir is somebody like...
Nate Day: Josh just outlined. But. um it's it is a pretty standard coming of age movie for the most part um So I think if you're interested in that genre.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: This is one that you... will would probably enjoy. um And I think it would make a... a really interesting double feature. with some of those more happy -go -lucky 1950s movies, set movies that I...
Chris: Mmm.
Chris: Mm hmm.
Nate Day: mentioned just because some of them are you know we
Chris: A little driving action.
Nate Day: Yeah, exactly.
Chris: Yeah.
Nate Day: we we we get so sort of caught up in the retrospective glam that we forget that like It was also easier to kick the shit out of your kids in the 50s.
Chris: right
Nate Day: Because nobody could figure out what was going on.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: You know what I mean? Like there was no communication or anything like that. so um
Chris: Totally.
Nate Day: It also did remind me, I'm kind of surprised it hasn't come up. We covered the outsiders. um a while ago which is also about young young boys in the Is that the 50s?
Chris: I've been yeah
Nate Day: I guess it is. 60s maybe. sort of in this era.
Chris: Yes.
Nate Day: but um
Chris: Oklahoma.
Nate Day: going through similar things. So if you're into some of those stories, I would say... and This would be... one that you'd maybe be interested in.
Nate Day: How about you Chris?
Chris: Those are great takes. They make me want to change my answer. um Off the top of my head, thinking about trying to answer this, I was like... I don't know, my buddy Tucker, my dad, like...
Chris: Most people I know who enjoy reading. So I kind of tried to think about it a little bit when someone asked me for a book recommendation. First of all, I take that as potentially the highest honor anyone could ask of you. What's a book that you would recommend to me? And.
Chris: There's a difficulty. It's not like every book you read is going to match your life, right? I've recommended Lord of the Rings to every human on this planet.
Nate Day: Mhm.
Chris: But there's an amount where that is in my mind, and I'm like, hey, I think you would love this. Your childhood was also fucked, right? Like, that's not...
Nate Day: Yeah. Right. Right.
Chris: That's not cool.
Nate Day: Complicated, yep.
Chris: But as as I... I kind of undid my my own thought process there because, as I said, Sally Field's memoir was very enjoyable.
Chris: I've told you about this, Nate, Andre Leon Talley's memoirs.
Nate Day: Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Chris: He worked closely with Anna Wintour.
Nate Day: Yep.
Chris: Um... It's literally called In the Chiffron Trenches. I was like, what's something that's as far away from my life as I can get? And I loved it.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: so I kind of... unconvinced myself and I'm like I think to someone. um You didn't say it in these words, Josh. I would want like a casual reader. I don't think is maybe going to take as much away from this. So I think someone who I know.
Chris: Is a... not not serious reader necessarily but it's truly a hobby to them they enjoy reading and just wants to shake it up. I think this would be a cool...
Chris: Go look at. how you inspect a text, but in this. very unique light.
Nate Day: Yeah. That's cool.
Chris: Yeah. yeah now that you say that i mean there is a bit of a learning curve to reading him yes Yes. And so I wonder, I mean, even did you even feel that like towards the end of the book? like you're maybe picking up one felt completely different yes so i think that there is a bit of um I mean, I said earlier, respect that he's giving the reader. And I think that maybe.
Chris: Respect yourself as a reader. and gen know Well, and initially it comes across as holes.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Because if you're used to writing feeding you like a baby...
Nate Day: Oh. Sure, kind of, yeah.
Chris: the first few chapters, you're like, bro, you're like leaving a lot out. And by the end you go, Oh no, it's all there. You're letting me find it. And those are.
Nate Day: That's cool.
Chris: with the exact same text, too wildly different. Greetings.
Nate Day: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, but I also, I mean, you said earlier, but I think that there's a bit of like, maybe the opposite person that I think would be good for this book would be good for this book. Like I'm not ah I've never been to the west I've been to the west coast but never in the middle of nowhere west and I'm reading Lonesome Dove and I'm like wearing my Wrangler jean jacket.
Chris: Like... Yeah, pulling out cowboy boots from the thrift store.
Nate Day: Hell yeah.
Chris: So like You know, who knows? Yeah. Who knows?
Nate Day: That's awesome.
Chris: this is This is a tough, I think this was for me. I don't know if this how is how it felt for you, Nate, coming up with yours. It felt like it would be very clear to me and for some reason this was one of the more difficult Who would I recommend this to?
Chris: to sift through
Nate Day: Yeah, this one, I just didn't have a lot of specificity because I was like, like I said, the movie is presented as a more straightforward. coming of age story. And I'm kind of like, who doesn't like that?
Chris: Yeah. Yeah.
Nate Day: You know, like who doesn't?
Chris: Mm -hmm. I don't, I hate it
Nate Day: Well... You're an oddball. I mean, you're like that's that's sort of your signature is that you don't like a lot of things that a lot of people do like.
Chris: Good.
Nate Day: Right?
Chris: If we do semi fraudulent math. Josh just said I'm very insightful, so...
Nate Day: Well... That's...
Chris: I don't do math himself.
Nate Day: Yeah. Me neither. I guess you're shit out of luck.
Chris: Alright, land this plane, Nate.
Nate Day: yeah Okay, well thank you very much for listening. to our discussion about this boy's life. And that is the name of the book. We are not talking about my life. Um,
Nate Day: thank you so much for joining us, Josh. Please, ah you know. Feel free to throw any more recommendations our way. We'd love to have you back.
Nate Day: um And up next, we've got Children of Men written by P .D. James with a film adaptation by Alfonso Cuaron. And I don't know if you've started reading it yet, Chris, but you will probably want to jump off a roof. So.
Nate Day: Thank you for tuning in.
Chris: Can't wait.
Nate Day: And we look forward to our next discussion.
Chris: Bye guys. Bye.
