Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome to Outnumbered the Podcast. I'm Bonnie. And I'm Audrey. And we're moms to a combined total of 16 kids with two more on the way. Yes, we know that sounds insane, and it usually is. But we're here to share the tips that help us keep our sanity and to share inspiring thoughts that help us get through each crazy day. Uninterrupted conversation is foreign to us, but we'll try. And we invite you to join us on our journey as we find joy in the chaos of motherhood.
Speaker: Hey everyone, welcome back to Outnumbered and today's episode is number 15. We are going to be talking about kids and cell phones or personal devices. And I'm really excited about this topic. It's a pretty hot button topic. How about you, Audrey? Yeah, this is unique and new and like you said, a hot button topic because there's so many different factors involved. So we're excited to dive into this one with you.
Speaker: Yeah, a lot to think about, a lot to learn about. And I want to intro this episode just by saying that we're going to offer some of our own suggestions, some of our own experiences and things that we're doing with our own family. But by no means are we experts, and by no means do we want to sound judgmental in this aspect. I think, like you said, it's such a new thing. We're all just learning as we go. So we're just here to offer a unique perspective and some thoughts on how to address it.
Speaker: Right. Exactly. We have some rules that we're using right now, but they've changed from what they used to be and they, I'm pretty sure will change again in the future. So like even our own cell phone use with our kids is a work in progress.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. And as quickly as technology changes, I think our rules and regulations for them and our household have to change just as quickly. We have to adapt pretty quick. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. But I wanted to open it with a little experience. I guess you could call it an insane mom moment. It's kind of just a stupid mom moment.
Speaker: So my son, my oldest had been begging for a device of his own for a while. Specifically, he wanted an iPad Pro because he's an artist and he's really quite talented if I do say so. And so we talked about it back and forth. His dad and I had some private discussions and thought, okay, he's 13. I think he's responsible. I think he got it for his birthday last year. He earned the money for it anyway. But we said, we'll lay down some rules. And the rules were,
Speaker: Um, he could draw with it in his room, but there was going to be no internet and no extra apps on it. It was only drawing stuff and there was no app store. Um, so basically every regulation you could probably, you know, put on an iPad, we put on there and we thought, okay, we're safe. We're good. And then a couple of weeks ago, um, he was starting to get kind of surly and cranky and you know, he's 13. So he goes through these phases sometimes where he's just kind of being a pawn.
Speaker: Yeah, and he was sleeping in real late and stuff. And anyway, all of a sudden one day I get a notification from my internet provider that we had gone over our internet usage.
Speaker: our allotment. And I thought, that's strange. I didn't even know we had an allotment. I thought it was unlimited because we have never ever gotten a notice that we've gotten even close. So I did some digging and we used, that month we used over double our normal usage. And I'm going, that's strange. This makes no sense. You know, I go into my son's room and I'm just curious because he's techno savvy. And I said, do you have any idea why this might've been? You know, I was out of town for a little while. I said, did you guys watch TV all day long while I was gone? Or no, no.
Speaker: But he's got this funny look on his face and most moms probably know exactly what I'm talking about. It's that I am hiding something and I am going to try really hard not to tell you.
Speaker: Dang it, it's my kid, I know this. So anyway, looking to the bottom of it, and he had figured out a way, kids are so stinkin' smart, way smarter than I am, he had figured out a way to download a couple of apps that had previously been on his Apple ID, but on a different device. And I wasn't aware that he didn't need to ask permission to download something that had been previously downloaded, not on this device, but on a different device. So it was just, it was a TV watching app and it was
Speaker: a silly game. And I took the iPad away and I said, we'll talk about it later. I didn't want to freak out right then. And I did some digging and it had been totally innocent usage, but he'd just been sucking his day away on the internet. And I looked at his screen time usage because that's one of my favorite tools that you can use on iOS devices is to check screen time. And he had been averaging about seven hours a day.
Speaker: time. So this time that I'm thinking he's finishing his schoolwork, he's working on art, he reads a lot, all that time had been sucked away on this device. And I just thought, you idiot. You should have checked. So
Speaker: Anyway, I just share that to say that even with every limit and firewall and restriction you can imagine up, kids will find a way to do what they want. And I try not to be too hard on them because I felt like it was a crime of opportunity. That's what I told my husband. It was something he saw that he could get away with and he did it. I mean, how many times have we stayed up way too late at night scrolling Instagram or watching TV? You can't really blame him.
Speaker: Obviously, the deceit is the most important thing. So we dealt with that, but there you go. There's my cool, hardy experience. Well, your experience, we've had several like that with our kids too. Well, my most recent one I'll share. My son, 13 year old also had been getting up at five o 'clock in the morning and I was like, wow, this kid's showing ambition and he's getting his schoolwork done and all this stuff.
Speaker: So the other morning, you know, of course sleepless pregnant night and I get up and I kind of have this mom feeling and I go downstairs I sneak downstairs without making the stairs creak and or turning on any lights and sure enough, you know He's on my phone. He doesn't have his own phone, but he has on my phone and Was doing Let's see. What was he doing? He was listening to an audiobook and he was looking at
Speaker: through my messages and my photos, which I don't really care about, that I don't have anything to hide, but it was just the not asking permission and the getting up at five o 'clock in the morning to do it. Then I asked him more about it and he said that he had been on the laptop as well, like getting on YouTube or watching videos or movies or whatever on the laptop at other mornings, not this particular morning, but anyway, he fessed up.
Speaker: Well, that's good. Yeah. Like I said, I felt like for us, the most important thing to address was the deceit, not necessarily what he was doing because it was fairly innocent, but that's tricky. Tricky motherhood issues, I tell you. Yeah.
Speaker: So to dive into this cell phone usage, and we're going to talk specifically about cell phones, but a lot of this applies to other devices as well. iPads or tablets, laptops, desktops. And there are a lot of tricky things when considering these devices. One of the first things I came across in my research was radiation. So there is radiation that comes off of cell phones and devices.
Speaker: There's not a lot of research done on it, so we're still not really sure what that's doing to us. And only time will tell, unfortunately. There are also sleep concerns, especially for developing kids and anyone who has a device in their room. There's the concern of driving with a cell phone, which is obviously a problem for just the older teens.
Speaker: That's a really scary one. Social media and the bullying that comes along with that, that's been proven to be a cause of some of the rising suicide rates, which is terrifying. Privacy concerns, kids leave on their location settings so people can track them. There's also pornography and sexting, just the fact that they have access to unlimited entertainment. I could go on and on about all these factors to consider when handing a kid a device. It's kind of scary.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Cell phones are relatively new and smartphones have been around just for over a decade. We're actually the first generation parenting kids who have mobile devices with this level of all those things that you were mentioning available right in their pocket with them everywhere they go. And so like there's not any historical research or data to base our decisions on. We kind of have to
Speaker: like we experiment with it and we go on our gut and we read research and do what we can, but it's new territory for us. Yeah. And like we mentioned in our mothering with intention episode, this is one aspect that we're going to have to be really, really intentional on. I don't feel like we have the luxury of just going with the flow on the cell phone issue and just doing what our neighbors are doing because there are so many risks and so many dangers. We really have to be paying attention and going into it with our eyes wide open.
Speaker: And me personally, I'm actually a really huge fan of technology. I love the latest gadget. I love learning how things work. And I love the convenience that comes with all this amazing technology. And I really want to be able to embrace these new gadgets and the conveniences right away. But I'm also realizing that the dangers that come with them often outweigh the good in a lot of instances. And I think that's the fact of life in a lot of areas, especially with parenting. Okay, does the convenience
Speaker: outweigh the danger or vice versa, and it's totally a personal call that you have to make, not just once or twice, but almost every single day with each kid. Yeah. I am actually not a fan of technology. I suppose I'm a Luddite, but I have a love -hate relationship with technology. I like the convenience it provides, but man, I think
Speaker: Yeah, I do realize that this is going to be a huge part of my kid's future. Technology is not going away. And so it's something they need to be acclimated to, but we need to teach them good boundaries like anything else and help them see that like good boundaries, like as with anything else, that just because it's a device that they're very familiar with, that they have all the time, that it doesn't mean it's a safe thing.
Speaker: I think I could have lived on the prairie a hundred years ago.
Speaker: And the thing I try to impress on my kids the most of all, I think is that it is a very good tool and a very bad toy. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. I like that. You know, when these personal devices first came out and video game consoles, I do have to correct myself here. I love technology unless it's video games. I don't know why I have such a
Speaker: problem with video games, but it's not something that I've ever been drawn to. And so when I see kids wasting time on it, it kind of drives me crazy. And so that was something that I really kicked against for a while. And there was a while when I thought, do my kids even need any of these devices? But then I thought,
Speaker: just what you're saying. It's in their future. When they go off to college, when they go off to a job, they're going to have all these devices at their fingertips. They're going to need to use them. And there are so many wonderful things they can learn on them. I love watching my son on his iPad learn how to draw. He's learning animation, digital animation. He's learning all these amazing techniques that are made so much easier and more responsive with this tablet and this pen. And I think it's amazing. But
Speaker: you know, to teach him the proper restraints while he's young. That's a tricky thing. Yeah. So when I was researching this, here's an interesting thing. I just Googled kids and cell phones to start with.
Speaker: And the interesting thing was there were three full pages of Google results that had nothing to do with cautionary articles. They were all sales pitches. So the first three pages of Google results were, perfect phone for your kid. Buy this one. This is the latest model. This is the latest gadget. I just thought, gee, Josefad, come on, I'm looking for something
Speaker: to put my mind at ease or help me drop some good rules and regulations at our household and there's nothing out there. As I kept looking, there were some articles and I'm going to reference some and actually link to some in the show notes today, but I thought that was really telling that there's very little cautionary content out there and we need to be aware that the dangers are much more than people are telling us.
Speaker: Yeah, I totally think that many parents do not understand the multitude of dangers that come with an electronic device. I mean, when I see, I have also handed my toddler a device to just get us through the grocery store line.
Speaker: But so I'm not like I'm not judging here, but I feel like I'm doing it because if I do it, it's because I have weighed the weight in the balance of my kids screaming or you know, all these other things. But when I see like a little kid playing with a like a two year old playing with a phone for
Speaker: 30 minutes or whatever that oh that just makes me nervous and I don't think um like people holding a another one that makes me quite nervous is people holding a baby an infant um and just being on a device themselves I that makes me pretty nervous because I did read an article um about
Speaker: the dangers of that because the baby's skull is not formed and they have the soft spots and how much easier it is to go in right through the soft spots as you know like your bone is kind of a deterrent but how it actually kind of can change the brain
Speaker: whatever because of that. And so that, um, and then, you know, just, I like both our kids are homeschooled, but giving kids like public school kids, I understand as a parent, the desire to be able to get in touch with your kid or to have your kid, you know, a safety line where they can get in touch with you. But, um, I've seen kids that, oh, it just feels too young for them to have a device and, um, and be as
Speaker: conversant on this device as they are without realizing not only the radiation and the physical dangers of it, but I think there's a lot of emotional and psychological dangers that come with it. I have seen also articles that talk about how our kids are the loneliest generation ever and they're more
Speaker: in touch than ever, than any generation before them. Yeah, I've seen the same. So we're going to talk a lot about some of these pros and cons and to be able to better weigh them as accurately as possible before giving our kid a cell phone or when making the rules regarding a cell phone. So today we're talking specifically about how to decide if or when your kid is ready for a device, some limits to consider, rules, stipulations,
Speaker: how to be a good example as a cell phone user because let's be honest, we're all new cell phone users too, right? I got my friend's cell phone in college. In fact, recently when my kids were asking, when can I have a cell phone? I said, you can get one when you're as old as I was when I got a cell phone. How old were you? 24. So how to be a good example to them and then also solutions for kids who may already be addicted and have an unhealthy
Speaker: usage of cell phone going on in their life. Right. Yeah. For us personally, so when to give your kid a device. For us personally, like I said before, we homeschool and so this might have been different if our kids were away from us in public school, but we don't give our kids their own device until they have their driver's license and they will be away from us for an extended period of time.
Speaker: That's the timing on giving them a device. And then there's a whole, we'll talk more about this, but there's a whole range of things we go to. It's not like they go from never having tested a device before to suddenly, oh, you have a driver's license? Here's, you know, this thing, it's called a phone. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck. No, but how we prepare them to be able to monitor their own time and usage with a cell phone.
Speaker: Okay, cool. Yeah. So we don't yet have a child who can drive, but when I started leaving my kids home alone, my oldest was maybe 11 or 12, they could get ahold of me through the iPads that we have for the kids to
Speaker: to play or do school on. But I didn't like that they were reliant on the internet connection because once or twice our wifi went down, then they couldn't contact me and you can't call 911 from FaceTime. We recently did get a dummy phone, just your basic simple phone with no internet so I can reach my kids and they can reach me. And then I can send it with a child who is going somewhere
Speaker: Um, and, and might need to get ahold of me. The interesting thing is about that argument though, is that since just about every other kid has a cell phone, it's not really that
Speaker: imperative that your child have a cell phone when he goes off to hang out with his friends, because guess what? Six of his friends have one. He can text you from there. But there are other options. I just wanted to bring that up because I wanted to make sure that parents realize there are other options other than smartphones. Although they're not very easy to find, we went to multiple stores and said, okay, we're looking for a very basic phone for our kids.
Speaker: And they whisked us right over to an older model of iPhone. I said, no, you don't understand. We want the basic, like what we had 10 years ago. And they look at us like, oh, you're terrible.
Speaker: I'm sorry, do you want a covered wagon to go with that? Exactly, exactly. Yes, they won't be driving. They'll be walking everywhere. Well, what's interesting is two separate salespeople, once I explained, no, we really don't want one with internet. We don't think our kids are ready for that, et cetera. Two separate salespeople said, yeah, I really wish I hadn't given my child a smartphone when I did. And I thought, isn't that telling? The man is trying to sell me a device. And he's telling me that he wished he had not given his kid a smartphone. And so I thought that was really eye -opening.
Speaker: Yeah. We have the cheapest probably $20 flip phone that we keep for our younger kids if they go somewhere and it doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't text. It doesn't have internet. It's just a phone. It took my kids a little while to figure out how to text on those old number keyboards. I'm like, you can do it. Keep at it. You'll figure it out. Yeah.
Speaker: You have to hit the button three times to get to the letter C. I know, I know. We also have some old phones that we had, some of our first phones, so that if we had to add one to our plan, it would be a dinosaur on our plan and basically only a phone with no internet or anything, but it's another option if you have an old phone laying around.
Speaker: So another thing we do is for our teenagers that drive when we give them a phone is they also pay part or all of their bill, depending on if they have a job or anything like that, then they pay part of their bill so that it's not just a free ride from mom and dad, oh, here's a phone and we'll pay for whatever you want. But no, they got to chip in on that bill and help out.
Speaker: Yeah. And then, like I said, the younger kids, they just have a flip phone. So if they're at a friend's house or, you know, drop them off at the library or something, they have, they have a way to get in touch. Although our library still has a payphone. I don't know. The interesting thing is,
Speaker: If you don't have a cell phone, I've noticed that people are a lot more willing to let you use their phone nowadays. You remember growing up, it was kind of like, oh no, you got to go pay for the pay phone. I can't give everybody a free phone call here at the library or whatever. But I've noticed that I've had my kids ask just to borrow somebody's
Speaker: phone, specifically someone that works there, you know, a communal line and they're more than happy to like, oh, you poor thing. You don't have a cell phone here. Let me give you a phone. I thought that was interesting. And I do love how much independence we can foster with some sort of communication device. Like you say, dropping your kids off at the library, I'm much more comfortable with that if I have a way to text them and get ahold of them. And they can call me if there's some sort of situation that makes them uncomfortable or if they need to come home earlier or whatever.
Speaker: The independence really is wonderful if we're being careful. So we're going to move on to talking about setting limits with these devices. So we all want to be able to trust our children, right? And we want them to trust us and just have a really great relationship between the two of us.
Speaker: what I've realized is that we cannot trust the world around us, right? So as I was doing some research for this, I found out that social media likes, so when someone likes your posts on Facebook or Instagram, it's been equated with the same kind of how you get from a gambling addiction. So when you hit the jackpot on a slot machine, you get the same kind of dopamine rush or whatever it is in your brain.
Speaker: that you get from seeing your likes go up on social media. Pornography is everywhere. It is an icky topic that nobody wants to talk about, but it is everywhere. Kids are sending explicit photos and messages to each other. It's disgusting. I had a friend
Speaker: who was looking to get her kids cell phones and she decided to go with like a flip phone, no internet. But she also had to disable any photo messaging on her sons because she found out there was a girl at his school that was just getting random phone numbers from people and sending nude photos of herself to them.
Speaker: Oh no. Yeah. And I'm thinking, first of all, that poor girl has some issues. Second of all, how dare she? No matter how much protection we give our kids, this awful field is out there. So we've set a few limits for our family iPads. Like I said, we bought these a little while ago.
Speaker: Um, to let kids do some learning games on them. Um, and because we have so many kids, if they want to watch a show, uh, somebody's always fighting. So we have a couple of, okay, the three little girls are going to watch this show and you're going to watch this show on this one. No fighting. Um, but there are other rules we've set are no devices in bedrooms. And we actually had this one before my son got his, but I thought we were safe enough that he could draw on it in his bedroom. But clearly that one's been reinstated.
Speaker: We've also decided that parents know all passwords. So even though it's his device, he can have a password that no one else knows, but mom and dad always know it. And then we've also put each of these iOS devices on our our family. Apple ID plan, they have Apple has a family plan where
Speaker: someone can request an app and mom has to approve it before they can download it. And then we also regularly check that screen time usage in the settings on the iPad where I can see what they're doing and how many hours and et cetera. Yeah, that's kind of a new thing on just recently rolled out within the last years and it's pretty helpful. Yeah, it totally is. And I think that the big device manufacturers are finally realizing, oh, we got to give parents some tools.
Speaker: to be responsible for this or else they might stop buying if their kids are getting into trouble, right? And then lastly, when it comes to setting limits, I try to just be really in tune with my kids' moods. So like I was saying, the first thing I noticed when something was up with my oldest when he was having this little screen time free for all
Speaker: was that he wasn't acting normally. So he was kind of moody. He was sleeping in all the time. He was kind of short with everybody. And I think as moms, we have this intuition or this gut feeling when something's not right. And to pay attention to that is really invaluable.
Speaker: Yes, exactly. We have some of the similar device limits for our kids. And like, again, it's a little bit different for us because we don't have an iPad because they broke it a couple years ago. And so I just never replaced it. I kind of felt like, well, they have enough opportunity to see
Speaker: screens, you know, stuff on screens. We have a laptop for their homeschool and my husband and I have devices and our college students each have a laptop and they each have, the three teenagers have phones. The three teenagers that can drive have phones. And there's plenty of screens in our house. We just don't need to replace this iPad. So one thing we do is we put, so if they're on a device, it's, and they're younger than driving age, it's a device that belongs to somebody else. And so
Speaker: They have to all, all devices have a passcode on them. And so they have to, well, first of all, be old enough to know numbers. So that keeps, you know, younger than five really off of a device that without anybody else's permission. Okay. So we have, for us, it's kind of a balance between a trust and a respect as a teenager, um, you know, an older teen and still trying to guide and parent them because they still live in our home. And so kind of trying to find a good balance between.
Speaker: being a friend and a parent on this issue. Our oldest is 20 and our next is 18 and they're adults, so they have to be able to monitor themselves. Yes, we still have a responsibility to know what they're doing and what they're on, but they also have a conscience and they have a lot of training from us in the pack. They get to learn how to live with the consequences if they mess up now, right? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That is 100%.
Speaker: And they know when they're not doing something right and they feel it. And, you know, my older teenagers will come and talk to me about it and share, you know, something they did that didn't feel right or didn't help them feel good. And, you know, there was their conscience talking to them. So, you know, I respect that and talk to them about that. But yeah. Okay. So for younger than the teenagers with their own phones, we have some rules they have to
Speaker: ask the permission of the person whose phone it is, like if it's mine, you know, and they want to practice or Spanish or something on it, they have to ask me to use my phone. And the phone said passcodes. We have a passcode for the app store, so no apps can be downloaded unless they pay for it themselves. I mean, that would be our older teenagers, but they would have to ask us to enter the password so they could get the app. So we are aware of everything that's on.
Speaker: The phones, no phones in the bedrooms at night. I feel like it affects their sleep and so no phones in bedrooms at night. I do not like them.
Speaker: I have strongly suggested that they not be on their devices after nine o 'clock in the evening. But again, college students, they're up late studying, so that's just really up to them, not up to us. And then for the younger ones, sometimes at the end of the week or at the end of the day, if they've done a really good job and
Speaker: their work is done, then I'll let them have, you know, like 20 minutes on a game or on, you know, watch, they love Studio C. So, you know, mom, can we watch two Studio C's? Cause everybody got their work done to there, whatever. So stuff like that. Yeah. So those are some of our limits. And then, um, some of our strict rules, like, you know, no phones in the bedrooms at night that, that goes for anybody who lives in our house, no matter what their age is. Yeah. Those sound awesome. Yeah. So, uh, I did, I did want to get on my soapbox a little bit and say one thing that
Speaker: that really bothers me. And while I understand why some children are given phones at school so that their parents can reach them when they go for extracurricular activities or if there's an emergency or whatever, I really have a problem with kids on cell phones when an adult is trying to talk to them, specifically a teacher. And so I do know that when my kids do get cell phones, we're going to have some really strict rules about taking them to class when they're going to college classes or whatever.
Speaker: or taking them to church. Church is kind of a specific pet peeve because I've taught teens before at church who've been staring at their phones and I just want to rip them out of their hands and throw them out the window. That's really disrespectful. But then that being said, have we ever done that? Have we ever been in a class and slipped out a phone and sent a text?
Speaker: look something up because we're bored. We're in this age of none of us can pay attention to anything anymore. So that kind of goes back to being the good example. But just to be really aware of how easy it is for kids and adults alike to get sucked into that black hole of a phone. You can literally do anything on it. You can play a game. You can order a new shirt. You can send an email. You can make an appointment for your doctor's office. You can so many things that
Speaker: It's almost impossible not to pull it out when it's burning a hole in your pocket and you're bored.
Speaker: my two kids that are in college come home and they're just flabbergasted by the amount of time that kids in their classes spend on their phones. I think it's because our kids are paying for their own college education that they're taking it so seriously, but they just can't believe the amount of time and information that these other kids in class miss out on because they're on their phones.
Speaker: We're getting a world -class education sucked into your phone while you're paying thousands of dollars, right? Ouch, ouch. As far as phones in church go, we don't ever ... I mean, that's like a hard and fast rule. That's just a basic respect thing. That's just not allowed. Leave it in the car outside. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm down the hall. If you need me, come get me.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. So one thing I did allude to earlier was that my kids under two or three younger than knowing their numbers have like no screen time or as minimal as possible because I really do feel like there isn't any need for a kid that young to be on a device. Like everything that they'll have to know or learn in the future about a device, they'll have plenty of time to learn.
Speaker: But younger than that, it's just like I do not see any benefits of it. It only seems like it's damaging at that point to me. Yeah. And to think about how rapidly their brains have to develop and learn and grow to waste any time with them staring at a screen seems really counterproductive. You know, your kid's got to learn how to talk and walk and potty train and all these things in the first few years. He's got a lot of work cut out for him. He can't be watching TV. Yeah, I remember.
Speaker: reading about one study where kids had done, they did this experiment with kids 10, 15, 20 years ago, and they gave them a magazine, babies, okay, one or two years old, and the babies would look at the pictures in the magazine and turn the pages. And then just in the past five years, they did the same experiment with kids. And the little kids, one, two years old, would try to swipe the pages instead of turn the pages.
Speaker: That was just like my heart was breaking. One of my friends said, yeah, nowadays these kids can swipe before they can wipe.
Speaker: I thought that was pretty funny. That is so true. Yeah, that is so true. Okay, so we've talked about when and if to give your kid a cell phone, the limits to set. And now we're going to move on to being a good example of a cell phone user. And this is a painful subject. It leads to this for me. And so here are a few things that I have
Speaker: decided to work on myself so that I can teach my kids how to be better cell phone users. One is to keep my phone out of sight in the car. So not just out of my hand, but in my purse. Because it seems like one of the first things I do when I get in the car is pull my phone out and set it on my dash. And it might be because I need directions or something. But if I'm not using directions, there's really no reason for it to be out. It's just a potential distraction, right? Yes. And I really want to teach my kids that positive habit before somebody gets hurt when they get older and start driving.
Speaker: Yes, in our state there are actually laws about what age kid can use an electronic device in a vehicle. That's really interesting, really interesting.
Speaker: And there are a lot of workarounds for that. If you want your kid to have a phone in the car for emergency's sake, but you don't want them on it, a homeschool family, I know we've used their daughter to babysit before and one time I texted her and she happened to be driving, which I didn't know. And an automated text came right back to me that said, hey, I'm on the road and driving and want to stay safe. I'll get back to you as soon as I stopped the car. And I thought,
Speaker: genius. That's really smart. But she's still got her phone in case something happens to her. Yeah, there's apps that can actually, I've heard of insurance companies using them like auto insurance and it will actually monitor if the phone is being used in the car or not. And if it's not, then your insurance rates go down. This is for kids under the age of 18. So if it's not being used, your rates will go down. Boy, that's an incentive, isn't it? You can just tell your kid, well, if it's used and the rates go up, you'll pay for it.
Speaker: Exactly. So that's one of my first ones, keep my phone off site in the car to be present with my kids. So like I said, there are infinite number of things I can be doing on my phone at any given moment, but to actively put it away and be present with my kids is really helpful. So sometimes I just leave it on the counter during homeschool or whatever, but lately I've been sticking it in a cupboard or on top of the fridge where it's not
Speaker: in a media eyesight or turning my ringer off when I'm reading with my kids, so I'm not tempted to hop up. What's interesting is I'm now okay with letting a phone call go to voicemail, even if I hear it or a text or whatever, but my kids aren't. They'll hear it ringing. They'll hop up and go get it. I said, it's not important. We're not answering it right now. To teach them that that ring does not mean that you have to go running for it.
Speaker: And then another thing that I've been working on is communicating with my children what I'm doing on my phone instead of just zoning out. So if I'm picking up my phone and they're around, I'll say, we'll have lunch in 20 minutes. I have to pay two bills right now. And I'm going to do that on my phone. Or right now, I am answering an email that's really important about my business. And I'll get back to you in just one second. Because to them, a device is, like you say, mostly a toy. It's for games, and it's for TV, and it's for all these things.
Speaker: But they don't realize that I'm actually looking up a recipe to make you for breakfast right now. And so there are ways around that, obviously. I've been printing out more recipes so that I can stay off my device when my kids see me and they don't get in the habit of always seeing mom looking at her phone, you know? Yeah, I love that. That's a really good idea to communicate what you're doing with them.
Speaker: Then also, we can just leave that for when the kids don't see us. Sometimes I just check my Instagram in the bathroom because it's easy for me to get sucked in, but when I'm done in the bathroom, I have to shut it off or leaving it for when kids are in bed. Yeah. My personal rules for self -usage have evolved, of course, with having a phone. I remember when I first got one, there was this
Speaker: Oh, this game that I really liked and I would spend a lot of time on it. It was kind of this search and find game or something. And then a while later I realized that my kids really liked that game too. And I didn't like that amount of time they were spending on it, but I realized that I had also been spending that amount of time on that same game.
Speaker: Most of the rules that I have, hard and fast rules for my kids, those are rules for myself that I've just extended to them. So no phones in the bedrooms at night. And I try to be off all screens and devices by nine or 10 at the latest because I've read that it takes two hours after your eyes have been looking at a blue screen, which electronic devices, that's all blue screens. It takes two hours to shut off or stop processing after that.
Speaker: Really, you can't get very good sleep afterward for two hours afterward. Lately, I've had a lot of stuff going on with my business and with Project Run and Play and stuff, and I just have not had time to do anything that's treating a device like a tool, consuming things. I haven't had time to...
Speaker: do anything really, you know, scroll Instagram. I really like Instagram and Instagram stories that I really haven't had time. So when I, maybe when my workload goes down a little bit, I'll have to reassess and be careful with how I'm spending my time in my device. But I do like that screen time.
Speaker: usage monitor. Yeah. Yeah. And I've gotten, I've set mine up so that it actually gives me a notification. So once a day, it'll say, your screen time usage has gone up or down. And what's interesting is I don't think that I'm on my phone that much. And it'll tell me at the end of the day, you've been on your phone for hours and I'm going for what I didn't know, but it's from email or posting an Instagram
Speaker: picture or looking at a recipe or I listen to a lot of podcasts and that counts as screen time. So I just think, yikes. Those are the things I do that I think are fulfilling and helping my life. And it's still that much time. Wow. It's really eye -opening.
Speaker: Yeah, wow. So we're going to move on to the last aspect of cell phones with our kids and that is what to do if you feel that your child is already addicted to a screen or is zoning out for hours and hours. How do we rein it in and get that under control?
Speaker: Yeah, that's an interesting one because it's so easy for them, like they could just sit there for hours and be fed by this without any creative input on their part. So one thing I like to do is just
Speaker: Randomly change my passcode because you know kids they figure it out after a while or they try to you know this and you can see so it's interesting to just randomly change my passcode and they they can't figure it out and they can't get in and then just to observe their behavior for the next day or two and see Okay, which kids?
Speaker: which kid is having the most withdrawal. And I do kind of feel like that's an appropriate word. Yeah, it totally is. That's like my number one thing is just to randomly, sometimes I'll do it because a kid has, you know, done something inappropriate or something disrespectful with my phone or my device, like, you know, not asked and done something or whatever. And so I'll change it for a reason. And then when I just randomly change it, they're like, oh, you know, who was it? Who screwed up this time?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, speaking of resets, that's kind of one of my tools for this problem as well. I think a reset from technology is always a good idea. I've noticed that in our family, it takes my kids a full week, seven to eight days of no screen time before they kind of get back to their baseline attitude. Does that make sense? So if there's been more and more and more, and that happens for any number of reasons. I've had a baby and you watch a lot of TV or
Speaker: Who do we blame for this reset?
Speaker: my husband's out of town and I'm going crazy. Here, just watch a show. Or after a vacation, Christmas time. We're watching Christmas movies and we're zoning out a lot. So then we'll have a week or two where I just say, we're not going to have any screen time. And I'm telling you, the first three or four days are torture. Even if they haven't been watching that much, but I just feel like we need an attitude reset. It's definitely harder to say no for a while
Speaker: than to give in. But once I get to that week, I'm really rewarded. I'm able to see my kids' personalities blossom. They get along a lot better. They start doing really creative things. They play outside more. And so every time that happens, I'm reminded, okay, this needs to happen on a regular basis. I need to remind myself
Speaker: that they've had a little bit too much. And then like we mentioned, you can check your screen time usage and figure out where a kid is getting the most sucked in. You might notice, oh, this kid's been spending a little bit too much time on, even if it's a learning app or something. I think that that's causing some problems. I mean, we can delete apps or games or other entertainment, social media that is causing the most harm and watch our kid turn around, have a conversation with them.
Speaker: Right, and before you do this week of no screen time or something, it might be good to stock up on what kids used to do, you know, puzzles and games and board games and books and new things like that. I noticed that
Speaker: You know, as interesting as a trip to the library is almost as big of a reward to the kids if they're off -screen time as, you know, getting 20 minutes on the iPhone to play or something. I really think that their needs get simpler, especially for entertainment. They can entertain themselves with a couple of blocks or, you know, their bike outside instead of this highfalutin gadget. And I just feel so much better when they're getting some sunshine and playing together.
Speaker: And that leads me to my next suggestion, which is just to introduce substitutions for screen time. So if a kid is really getting sucked in and you're feeling like this is an unhealthy amount of screen time, get him into a sports league or Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or start a book club with some of his friends, take him or her on a date alone with you or dad, give them more responsibilities around the house and not necessarily chores, but say, you know, I'd really like for you to be responsible for
Speaker: planning our Sunday dinner. Do you think you could do that? Something a little bit exciting that makes them feel a little bit more grown up. Just get them involved in more life, more real life. Yeah. My number one thing that I do when I feel like a kid has had too much screen time is send them outside. It's okay. Time to go spend time outside and don't come in for an hour or whatever. And what's interesting is
Speaker: like when the power goes out or your cell phone signal is knocked out because of a storm or whatever. If you go outside and look around, everybody's outside and walking around and looking each other in the eye and greeting their neighbors and talking to people. It's like people remember that they're human and there's other humans besides what's on this little square in front of them. If the apocalypse ever really happens, I think that might be the best part about it. No electricity.
Speaker: We stop looking at our little screens and start having a conversation again. Absolutely. So in conclusion, I think the most important thing we want to impress on all parents today is just that there are way more dangers out there than we initially realized. It's totally our own personal decision when to give our kids devices and how much, how often.
Speaker: I feel like it's so much more than just a rite of passage. It's not like, oh, you're eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, time for a phone. It's a big, big decision and it can lead to a lot of problems that we don't anticipate. And so I just encourage every parent out there to do some research. You might have to scroll through several Google search pages to pray about it, think about it, talk to your spouse about it and follow your gut.
Speaker: Yes, one time a doctor and I were having a casual conversation at the grocery store and he said to me, what did we fight about with our kids before they had screens? Seriously, there was nothing. I can't even remember. I don't even know. Did we fight with our kids? I'm sure we did.
Speaker: I just think to me that what he said kind of underscores the point that there is a lot of contention brought in when a device is in because parents have this instinct that this isn't the best thing for my kid if they're using it in the wrong way. It's a tool, not a toy. Yeah. Well, and along those notes, I just wanted to remind
Speaker: Everyone of what we talked about in our mothering with intention or episode that your kid doesn't have to like your decision. Your friend doesn't have to like your decision. You don't have to make the decision that everyone around you is making. If it does not ring true with who you are and who you want your family, what you want your family culture to look like, just have the courage to do it and your kids will thank you. I promise. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: when they're trying to parent their own kids through this electronic journey. They'll have some freaky virtual reality thing they got to take away from their kid. So to recap, number one, figure out when is the right time to give
Speaker: your kid a device, and the answer for your kid, it's different for every kid, like so many things, but your kid can be 18. It's up to you, really. Right, right. It's your house, and don't be afraid to make the rules and stand by them, right? Our number two recommendation is to set limits and reevaluate them regularly. Like Audrey said, reset your passcode, start over, say, we're going to try something new this week, and see how things go. And number three, probably the hardest, be a good example. Right, right. Oh, definitely the hardest.
Speaker: And then finally, be aware when devices are causing problems for you or your children and find solutions or substitutions for those kids that are having issues. Okay, and so as far as recommendations go, we just have a couple. I am including three articles that I
Speaker: read through to do some research for this episode that were all really helpful to me. Some are a little bit more middle of the line, some are very anti -cell phone, but I think that they're a good read. And the other thing I wanted to recommend is to look into some of the restrictive apps and browsers that are out there.
Speaker: The canine protection program is a really well -recommended program to keep kids safe from nasty stuff on the internet. So pornography or gambling or any other sorts of ills that you don't want your child to find on a browser if you install this canine protection, that can help you out. And there are a myriad of other ones as well. We have actually disabled the internet browser on a lot of our devices that the kids have access to because
Speaker: If they want to search something, they can search something on my phone with me right there. I don't really want them having access to the whole of the internet. And there are other apps to monitor usage as well. Too many to name, but I encourage you guys to go take a look at them and find one that works for your family.
Speaker: One thing I wanted to mention is, you mentioned your kids searching right next to you, is I don't allow my kids to sit in a corner or with their back to a wall or with the device, but it has to be where someone else can see the screen to for some accountability. Yeah, we've done the same thing. Whenever we've had a desktop in the house, it always faces out into the room. And if they're looking at a device, it needs to be at a table or on a couch with a sibling or something so that
Speaker: so that it's a lot harder to hide if something sketchy pops up. And then lastly, if you do notice in the screen time or usage or history that your child's been looking at something inappropriate, just be willing to have a frank and open conversation with them without a lot of blame, without a lot of shock and awe because I feel like
Speaker: our kids are going to have these experiences over and over and over, whether it's on purpose or on accident, they're going to see stuff they're not supposed to see because the internet is a huge wide place with a lot of evil out there. And so to just be able to have those really honest and loving conversations with our kids and say, you know, I noticed that you
Speaker: saw this on the internet. Do you want to talk about that? And of course at first they'll be a little nervous or maybe in denial, but to just say, look, you're not in trouble. I just want to have this conversation with you. What can we do to prevent this from happening in the future? And how did that make you feel and et cetera? It's a tricky thing, but to keep those lines of communication open.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. You don't want to alienate them where they feel like they can't talk to you about it, but because probably most likely they are, if they're into something that they shouldn't be, they are having some internal struggle and regrets. And if they can't talk to you about it.
Speaker: Yeah, so that is all we have for you guys today. I hope these tips and advice were helpful. I hope that no one felt judged for the decisions that they've made, but more empowered to make positive decisions for your kids and their device usage in the future. Good to talk to you and keep up the struggle. It's worth it. Bye.
Speaker: Thanks so much for listening to Outnumbered the Podcast. You can contact us at outnumberedthepodcastatgmail .com and find us on Instagram at Outnumbered the Podcast. We're so grateful for our listeners and would love it if you'd take the time to leave us an honest review on iTunes, Stitcher, or any other podcast platform. And don't forget to share the podcast with your mom friends. Can't wait to talk next time. Bye.
Speaker: Okay. Hang on a second. I have one to share, but I've got to send a text. Shoot. Hang on. We're getting our cow today, and so I'm trying to coordinate three different people helping out. You're going to get a cow the same month you're having a baby. You're nuts. Getting a cow and having a cow.
