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AI, Data Tools, and More with Ethan Mollick
710 Plays2 years ago
Ethan Mollick is an Associate Professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, where he studies and teaches innovation and entrepreneurship. He is also the author of The Unicorn’s Shadow: Combating the Dangerous Myths that Hold Back Startups, Founders, and Investors. His papers have been published in top management journals and have won multiple awards. His work on crowdfunding is the most cited article in management published in the last seven years.
Prior to his time in academia, Ethan co-founded a startup company, and he currently advises a number of startups and organizations. As the Academic Director and cofounder of Wharton Interactive, he works to transform entrepreneurship education using games and simulations. He has long had interest in using games for teaching, and he co-authored a book on the intersection between video games and business that was named one of the American Library Association’s top 10 business books of the year. He has built numerous teaching games, which are used by tens of thousands of students around the world.
Episode Notes
Ethan’s UPenn Website
Ethan’s Personal Website
Ethan on Twitter
Dall-E Tweet
Google Drive folder with Ethan’s Dall-E images
Wharton Interactive
2022 Hugo Awards
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Episode #121: Erin Hengel and Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham
Episode #4: Ben Casselman
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Transcript
Introduction of Guest and Topic
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome back to the Policy Vis Podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. On this week's episode of the podcast, I chat with Ethan Molloch from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and you're thinking, why am I talking to a professor at the University of Pennsylvania? Well, you might recall from a few months ago, if you're in the Data Vis world,
00:00:32
Speaker
From a few months ago, there are a bunch of really cool images created from the dolly artificial intelligence tool that were plays on data visualization created by famous artists. And those were created by Ethan. And so my instinct was to reach out to him and talk about
00:00:49
Speaker
How does Dolly work? What does it take? What do you need to do? And he wrote back and said, I'd be happy to talk about it, but there's really not much to talk about. You just kind of throw it in there and you just see what it does. And so that was kind of fun to hear that. So we do talk about his experiments with Dolly and we talk about that work, but we also focus on
00:01:09
Speaker
what
Ethan's Work at Wharton and Educational Innovation
00:01:10
Speaker
he does with Twitter and of course Twitter is going through its own changes and we'll see what happens with Elon Musk taking it over but I find Ethan's Twitter feed really interesting because he spends so much time summarizing academic papers and so
00:01:25
Speaker
he'll take a screenshot of different parts of a paper, including graphs and the abstract or some text, and we'll summarize it for folks really quickly. And so it's really interesting from someone like me coming from the economics field, you know, writing and working in the academic literature, but I wanted to pick his brain about how academics could do a better job with the data visualizations
00:01:47
Speaker
in their academic writing. And so we spend most of our time actually talking about his Twitter feed and talking about some of the solutions that maybe academics can take part in to improve how they communicate their work. And we also talk about some of his other work at Wharton, including Wharton Interactive, which is working on the entrepreneurship space using games and simulations. Well, of course, that has a direct link to the field of data visualization and data communication.
00:02:15
Speaker
Now before we get into my conversation with Ethan, let me tell you a little bit about this week's sponsor of the show, Partner Hero. Partner Hero is a outsourcing firm that's built to meet the needs of scaling high growth startups. They offer flexible terms, they offer fast onboarding, and the ability to scale your teams quickly.
00:02:34
Speaker
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00:02:54
Speaker
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00:03:18
Speaker
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00:03:45
Speaker
So here we go on this week's episode of the
Ethan's Background and Teaching Philosophy
00:03:48
Speaker
show. Here's my conversation with Ethan Mollick from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania.
00:03:55
Speaker
Hey Ethan, good afternoon. How are you? Excellent, and thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Awesome. A beginning of the semester for you? Yes, I've got a couple weeks left till the next quarter kicks in and I start teaching, but it's certainly on my mind. Wow, quarters. Quarters must be hard. I feel like quarters, like once you like, it's like flying from like DC to Philly. Like you kind of don't even get up to cruising altitude. You just kind of like,
00:04:19
Speaker
Oh, I kind of like it. Like you get it's like delivering like a it's like a short set right for a concert. I got I got 12 12 sessions I got to deliver a tight 12. So I reached out because you did this really cool thing with this dolly artificial intelligence tool that came out with some data visualizations, which I have actually, by the way, a couple hanging on my wall because they're pretty cool. But
00:04:44
Speaker
I thought maybe we'd start just by talking about what you're working on. You've got some really cool initiatives going on at Wharton and Penn. So I thought maybe we'd start with that and then talk about some of the other things. So do you want to maybe give folks just like your quick like buy a little background of what you're starting the semester with?
00:05:01
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. So I'm a professor of innovation entrepreneurship at Wharton, at the University of Pennsylvania, and trained as an economic sociologist. And I teach a lot of the intro courses, or at least I did, in entrepreneurship. And I've been thinking a lot about how do we train these kind of things at scale, and how do we do teaching at scale. So I've been really super interested in teaching, especially how do we kind of teach in new ways, reach new people, teach the kind of lessons, like visualization lessons that are kind of traditionally hard to teach.
00:05:28
Speaker
And, you know, really been thinking about this a lot. I have, you know, a mass-violent course of MOOCs, these kind of Coursera courses. 400,000 people have taken the MOOCs that I'm part of, but they're still kind of watching videos of people talk, right? So there's something that's ultimately frustrating about it. So a lot of my effort has been into launching something called Warden Interactive, which is a game studio at Warden, effectively.
00:05:50
Speaker
that tries to teach using games and simulations and to try to do teaching at scale with all the instructional pedagogy built in from the beginning. So that's been a lot of my time on that, although I'm also, as you've noted, a pretty avid Twitter user and somebody who's dipping my feet into things like AI generated images
Games and Simulations in Education
00:06:10
Speaker
and stuff. So how do you discuss any of those things? So tell me a little bit about the Wharton Interactive. So is this for business school students getting them
00:06:19
Speaker
training that they're not getting in the core courses? Or is it those core courses, but trying to develop a way to do it at scale? So it's a little of both. There's a phrase in Silicon Valley is eating one's own dog food, right? So I experimented with my students. Don't tell them that. Hopefully they won't listen. I want your podcast to succeed. So I hopefully they listen, but they're not tolerant. But I have been running experiments. I wrote a book.
00:06:49
Speaker
games and education, I've been doing it for over, wrote that like over 10 years ago. And so I have a class, it's basically my experimental 100% games class. So from a teaching perspective, it's great because I just sit there and my students play games, my games the whole time. So the intent is that
00:07:04
Speaker
There's a few things that motivate this. One of them is, like, we actually know a lot of pedagogical science, just as professors, we don't really, we're not really taught it ourselves. But there's actually a lot of like, we know how to make you remember stuff and do stuff. So part of it's baking that in. And the part of it is like, experiential learning is great, but has project based work has all these weird outcomes, right? And you probably see this yourself. And so anyone who teaches those like, a team goes great. Like I've had I think people have from my class, the class taught my colleagues at Wharton, in the last 10 years, people have raised like,
00:07:34
Speaker
the entrepreneurship class is like $2 billion in venture capital, right? Except that those are the projects that have really succeeded, right? And for every successful project, the team goes bad. So how do we give people project-based work where the projects are always going to be interesting and where failure is interesting and where they all have the same kind of experience rather than hope that the gods of teams and projects work out on their behalf. So that's another big motivating factor.
00:08:00
Speaker
And the third one is democratization. So there's all this evidence. I know the same stuff happens in thinking about things like being a good statistical, physical thinker, but just small amounts of statistical education, business education make huge difference in people's lives. So there's these great studies, one that really motivates me, there's a study in Uganda by the World Bank that's a randomized controlled trial.
00:08:24
Speaker
all of us on my Twitter feed, by the way, people want sites. But that took a randomized sample of high achieving high school students in Uganda and put them through a three week entrepreneurship course, sort of the equivalent of what we're doing in the game. And the afterwards, three years later, they were like 10% more likely to launch ventures, you know, 12% were likely to employ people had 18% higher salaries, like little bits of intervention at the right time do the right thing. And like, it's great. I got really talented people coming to be awarded. But how do we get blow open the doors and do this around
00:08:54
Speaker
world. So it's as motivating factors of like games teaching away, we can't do otherwise, we can build pedagogy in a way we could do otherwise, and we can democratize. So yeah, those three things are really motivating me. And anyone can play these things, like some of them are free, and you can play them down, play them online. Some of them have, you know, the standard kind of charges that we would charge much less than a textbook, but you know, charges. Yeah, so can you give folks a sense of what a game might be as part of this?
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, so it's interesting. We've been playing a lot with the philosophy of this. So let me give you an example of the three quick examples. So one example is
00:09:28
Speaker
a mindset game. We want to give people an experience doing something they may not otherwise do. In this case, it's actually data analysis and coding. So we actually partnered with Evite. And in this game, it's a light fiction. You play as a consultant who has to help. There's like an hour countdown. Someone's on a plane and has to do a big presentation. But you're actually given three million lines of actual Evite data. And you actually code in Python in the game and get all this kind of assistance to solve a bunch of problems and do statistical analysis and things like that.
00:09:57
Speaker
A second game is one where you actually run a startup in real time over the course of three weeks. We filled the internet with fake information about the technology which doesn't exist, but you do everything from negotiate with customers, develop prototypes. Again, it's all simulated. We built fake Gmail, fake Slack, fake Zoom calls. We have actors that appear on these Zoom calls. It's all interactive.
00:10:19
Speaker
We've realized that there's a value to completely fictionalizing the setting. So we have a game set in 2087 on a doomed space mission to Saturn, where everything is going wrong. We've worked with Disney Imagineers, escape room designers. I got help writing for the guy who won the Hugo Award this year for science fiction, which is like the Oscars of science fiction for the non-nerds out there. But it really teaches you strategic organizational individual leadership, because the lessons are exactly marketing lessons, statistical lessons, and things like that.
00:10:49
Speaker
it's really attempt to try to do a lot of different things, not just my stuff, but we're working with lots of other professors to teach these things. Yeah, try to come with a method of doing it as well. Gotcha. And do you foresee or can you foresee how it might be used in other disciplines? I mean, I think the way you've described it seems very business, math, economics, you know, startup, that sort of thing. But have you started sort of pushing the boundaries and what it might look like for other disciplines?
00:11:17
Speaker
Very much so. I mean, we can tell any story, right? It's interactive fiction engine. And the whole idea of it actually was to move away from the mathy piece, because there's lots of mathy simulations up there where it's like, what spending do you want to spend? We make is 4%, 4%, 5% and then Excel spreadsheet or since dynamic models chugging our number, that's not how the world works. What happens is you increase our D spent by 4%. The head of our D is going to email you and say, why not 6% the head of sales and email you say, well, you fool, you're doing this. Like that's the interesting piece.
00:11:45
Speaker
So the whole idea is we built this fake inbox so we can play all kinds of games where you literally are getting messages from people. We also have all this stuff. If you want to run a full interactive fiction game, we want to teach The Odyssey by actually putting you on board as one of Odysseus' crew members trying to desperately convince him to not listen to The Sirens. Whatever you want to do, we can build those kind of settings. So the intent is to build around that human interaction rather than just the math piece.
00:12:07
Speaker
Right. That's very, very cool. Um, so let's switch gears a little bit because a few weeks ago, months ago now you put out this, I guess, collection of data visualizations
AI Tools and Data Visualization
00:12:20
Speaker
rendered by the DALI artificial intelligence tool. And so I'm not going to ask you to go into all the gory guts of how DALI works, but I guess I'm interested in.
00:12:31
Speaker
why you decided to do that, how it worked from your perspective, just what seems to be kind of a more casual user. And were you surprised at the reaction that you got on Twitter? Yeah, so I mean, there's a lot of interesting things. I use the big journey, which is basically a dollar, a different dolly clothes. They're all kind of the same. I just this one I got access to more easily. So I used it. You know, I study technology also, and there's always these sort of false starts in advancement of fields where people get really excited. You know, self-driving cars are going to be there whenever the new technology
00:13:01
Speaker
technology is, right? I'm still waiting for my hoverboard, right? But there are moments where things are accelerating and you really should be part of it because what they're doing is not just the technology. There's no threshold we have to reach. It's fundamentally changing, I think, how we get to interact in an interesting way.
00:13:17
Speaker
And the suite of sort of AI meets human technologies, right? So there's a whole bunch of things that generate. I have a colleague at Harvard who demonstrated a couple of fake Harvard cases that he had a different system generate. And they've read like Harvard cases. They were reasonably sensical.
00:13:33
Speaker
In the same way, I really enjoy our data visualization. I've got graphics in my papers. I just am not that good at it. I've spent time over Stata desperately trying to tune something. I've read all the books. I've got books on fonts. I've read your stuff. I'm like, oh, this is so clever. I don't have the full chops to pull that off. But suddenly here, I can
00:13:57
Speaker
It's a different thing. It's a medium where I can write something and have it happen and tune it with words. Fundamentally expanding how something operates, right? Using a human vocabulary to kind of generate things. And I think that, you know, it was interesting that it took off. I think that there is this hunger for seeing different ways of visualizing and seeing the world, right? It's why, you know, I've got a, like you, I have a decent Twitter following, right?
00:14:21
Speaker
If you look at the tweet that go most viral or not the academic papers or anything else, those do fine. But it is anytime there's anything with a visualization, right? That is literally what makes a Twitter tweet go is visualization. The more understandable the visualization is, the more likely it succeed. And it, of course, drives me crazy that academics refuse like myself, honestly, but we refuse to kind of put the good visualization there. We don't have the money, the time, the stuff to do that.
00:14:44
Speaker
But now we're on the cusp of something new. So I think the idea of seeing something visual, and the set of styles that I was able to do, 24 styles or whatever, in the course of playing with on and off over the course of a day, and they represent something that's fundamentally different than what we've seen. They're aping the style of Mondrian or whatever, but it's not, there is something that a human wouldn't have come up with any of these. Right. And you need to dive into Illustrator and do it pixel by pixel.
00:15:13
Speaker
Well, it takes seconds, right? Like I'm just literally saying, you know, you play with a little to get the numbers working. And I'm not good at this. Like I'm a naive person writing this stuff down. Like there is a pseudo code language you can apply. But who cares? Right. It works. Right. Yeah.
00:15:29
Speaker
I think there's something
Improving Academic Visual Communication
00:15:30
Speaker
so exciting about that. I think anybody who is interested in the visual space at all, in the policy space, in the data space, needs to spend an afternoon playing with these tools. I just can't emphasize enough that there is something really transformational there. And even if you bounce off of it, you won't regret it, I think.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, so that leads to the other part that you already sort of alluded to, which is your Twitter feed. You spend a lot of time summarizing academic papers, which can't be easy, especially because you have to read some or most of them, which can't be easy. But I guess I'm curious about, as you mentioned, like your thought about the graphic space in academia. And is the reason why the graphs aren't better is because
00:16:16
Speaker
There's just not enough time. There's not enough skill. It's the editors. Is it just the whole system? The short answer to all of your questions is yes, obviously. Look, as academics, there is a disdain for public
00:16:33
Speaker
interaction that is not actually wrong. There's a purity argument and my mentor has talked extensively about this at MIT. There is a desire for purity in our field. There is something impure necessarily about talking to a general public that, again, you could cross over that line. You could be one of the people who's it's okay to do it. But there's no doubt that as a junior faculty member, you'll be warned away from your distraction.
00:17:01
Speaker
And the same way, there's this theory I think about a lot, middle status conformity, which is that if you're competing with people, you're better off if you want to maintain middle status to look like everybody else. Violating those norms is a way to get either elite or get punished, right? That's what elites have punished.
00:17:20
Speaker
the leads who get away with it, they can violate a norm or not. So in the same way, like, you know, I want my paper accepted. So I'm going to use default statograph for our graphs to do this. And maybe if I'm really fancy, I'll change the background color, but like showing I have any more time than that to do that, or that is an indicator of a lack of seriousness or indication. Right. So what ends up happening is the only good, really good graphics come out of, you know, some of the, some of the, you know, like science or a few other places seem to have graphic designers who help out with these things.
00:17:50
Speaker
you know, are graphical, you know, abstract, but the result of something on Twitter, I'm sure you've seen the same thing, is that if you want us to the graphical, that huge makes a huge difference. And the graphs that people tend to have that are most visible are scatter plots. And scatter plots are, in many ways, the worst graphs to show because amateur critics attack them the most. It leads itself to bad statistical analysis, right? Because a scatter plot is not the same thing as a controlled
00:18:14
Speaker
or less regression analysis. So I think that there's some very simple ways to improve this, and there's some more complex ways. Simple ways, anything showing magnitudes, any of the graphs that show confidence bands above and below zero with a table of effects.
00:18:32
Speaker
I just would beg people to do this. This stuff matters. It's been really funny. I went to the big academic conference for the Academy of Management this year. And I've never been close to pseudo-celebrity before, but people are like, oh, I read your Twitter feed. People clearly care about this. They send me articles. They'd like to see tweeted out. There's a little bit of extra work, though. They're not willing to do. So that's my feeling on the graphic side. It is way undercounted. The difference between a good one and a bad one. And when it gets noticed at a place like Twitter or somewhere else, they get more citations. They get press reach outs.
00:19:02
Speaker
It makes a difference, right? So so there's definitely like a line of research there, right? Like, like just the way you said is like to actually quantify the impact of having better graphs. Of course, you have to sort of define that in some way. But if you were the editor of some journal, say Ethan's Journal of Management, what would your first step be to make the graphs in the articles in your journal better?
00:19:27
Speaker
So I think there's a lot of half-hearted pushes to do some of this, right? I think, first of all, you need one graph that communicates your key point, right? I posted this before, but there's a few heroic graphs that do that, right? There's a famous study on
00:19:48
Speaker
on the price of wholesale fish. I don't know if you've seen this in the Security Journal of Economics. Again, I'll put the link so people want to do this. But it shows the fish prices before and after cell phones were implemented in India. And it's really about coordination and pricing. The chart is like up and down, up and down. And then suddenly the instant cell phones, the start chart becomes completely flat.
00:20:09
Speaker
Like all the fluctuations disappear instantly get like, oh my God, I got this. Right? Like there are these kinds of graphs, you know, some of the graphs on income inequality, you've got them. So, you know, having something, spending the time to think what's, you know, often involves taking something and turning it into an order of magnitude that matters to people or an impact. Right. If I take it, people are already using back of the envelope calculations.
00:20:30
Speaker
This would cost $20 billion. This would save 2,000 lives. There needs to be a graph of that, the so what moment, as opposed to just a graphical check on what you're doing, which is also important. But it's important to recognize that these are persuasive arguments. We don't feel bad about persuading through our theory section. We don't feel bad about persuading for evidence. We should not feel bad about having a persuasive graph and arguing that's a persuasive graph.
00:20:54
Speaker
It's always shocking to me when I argue to folks, make the title in your graph active and tell people what the argument is in the graph. They say, no, we can't do that because of this, that, and the other. And I'll say, OK, well, let's see what you've written in the text. And maybe we can find a middle ground between the descriptive title and the active title. And 99 times out of 100, what's in the paper, what's in the report, is that active statement that's making an argument. And somehow, there's still this break between the visual piece and the text.
00:21:24
Speaker
People are scared of it in a way that is, it's a real problem, right? This is, this should be the moment that you are able to kind of show why this matters and so what, and I think a lot of people know what that graph would be.
Public Engagement in Academia
00:21:34
Speaker
And I think maybe having a special way of labeling it, right? Like this is my, you know, persuasive conclusion, right? In some way or another, because, you know, they do that secretly through other graphs, right? You're only showing the ones that are really showing what you want and what you want to show anyway, right? Like it's not like those are not selected out of a set of other graphics.
00:21:52
Speaker
There's all bias on there somewhere at some point. Yeah. And then there's the self-sabotaging stuff. The people are like acronyms in your graph, like it's just the worst part. Like, you know, and this is MCBR sex if compared to MCB four, seven, three slash point five, you're like, you know, and then I ended up.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, so there just is this, you know, and, and I think people get caught up a lot on visual niceness, which is, I think important, but I think you would do just a lot with like, what are the two things that matter? What are the dependent, what's the dependent variable? What's the variable that matters? You know, and be, you're allowed to be straightforward about this. Show me that you're 95% confidence interval. Like do that, you know, all that's great, but like, show me something that is interesting or shows change. Yeah.
00:22:36
Speaker
So let's bring these two pieces together. So when you think about the Wharton interactive and the simulator and the games, do you see, or maybe you're doing it now, but do you at least see sort of training for future academics to
00:22:50
Speaker
help them think more, I don't even want to say more visually because it's not just the visual piece, it's how people write as well, right? But do you help them think about those sorts of pieces in their research? I mean, I think that the idea is thinking about how you apply stuff and what lessons people are really trying to learn outside of a purely academic framework, what we call closing the theory practice gap, right? Like we do it in our classrooms who are often afraid to do it
00:23:18
Speaker
to the outside world. So part of what we do is help people tell stories, literal stories, right? So we'll meet with an academic. It turns out that when they're telling us something really important about the world, but they're kind of afraid to close that gap. But if you put it into a story format or something like a graphical format, suddenly this stuff becomes apparent, right?
00:23:36
Speaker
put people on the grounds of trying to, you know, and the great thing about games, just like graphics is you could strain the ground wrong. Like I could set up a situation where your research matters and make it clear these are boundary conditions or matters, but now I'm in a world where I wish I knew that paper, right? I could put you in that world, right? Where it matters that you know, that results or that answer.
00:23:53
Speaker
where you can play with alternative outcomes. Another thing that we've done graphically in the game is actually letting people modify projections that you could see the effect on a long-term graph. The world is advancing very quickly. That world of interactivity and graphics. We have so many other problems with how academic papers are formatted and published and paywalls and everything else. Just to refuse to take the advance of what's happening here of storytelling, it's a problem and it's a growing one.
00:24:21
Speaker
So do you think, you mentioned earlier the danger of junior faculty being that different person, doing the better guess, but do you think that junior faculty or people who are coming into the academic field the next few years
00:24:38
Speaker
that they will ultimately be behind if they're not thinking in the ways that you're arguing, more visually better writing, you know, thinking about broader audiences. I mean, I think they already are, right? Like, I think the issue is it's already a two-sided game, right? People may frown on, you know, on Twitter engagement or something else, right? And I dread the, how do you have the time? It's because I'm an academic who just gets easily bored during things and then reads a bunch of stuff like this.
00:25:02
Speaker
I actually find everything we do interesting. There's so much good work out there. That's the thing I'm learning. So much good work, right? I mean, I could show you all the stats and how we're drowning in science, but I'm amazed. That's not even counting working. There's so much good and important work out there that nobody will ever read or care about.
00:25:17
Speaker
And so it already is that, look, if you can get, you know, we may not like it, we may not agree with, you know, but like, you know, we may not tell people it's true, but if you get a New York Times piece covering your research, it's gonna get cited more, people are gonna pay attention, you might have to deal with some jealousy, but like it matters, right? But we'll tell people it doesn't matter, but it obviously matters. So now people have to play a two-sided game, where on one hand, they have to say, I don't really care about what people think of this, I'm purely interested in the life of the mind,
00:25:45
Speaker
On the other hand, putting this together in an honest way would make sense. I was just reading about the late 15th century scholarship. There were all these traveling scholars who would try to get hired by patrons in Europe to teach their children. That's how you'd make all the money. You had to become prominent to do that. The only way to be prominent was to pick very public fights with other scholars. That way you'd be noticed.
00:26:13
Speaker
He is controversial. I feel the same sort of stuff happens. There is advantage of being picked and being prominent and being noticed. I think acknowledging them, and it starts with graphics. It honestly does. Graphs are the persuasive connection between the general public and academic work.
00:26:31
Speaker
Love it.
Episode Conclusion
00:26:32
Speaker
Love it. I'm with you. We're fighting the same battles. I love it. Ethan, thanks so much for coming on the show. I feel like we covered a ton today. I really appreciate it. This was fun. I can't wait to keep reading your stuff, which I always think is awesome. And also, by the way, some of your exercises, teaching this stuff is great. And everyone should check you out if they haven't already. It's really terrific. I've thought about it a lot, especially
00:26:57
Speaker
introducing these concepts. These games. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. All right. Well, thanks again. I really appreciate you coming on the show. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. And thanks for tuning into this week's episode of the show. I hope you'll check out Ethan's website. Check out the simulation tool that he has, Wharton Interactive. Really interesting work there. Check out his Twitter feed, especially if you're interested in academic research. And maybe there's some ways that you can help folks improve how they communicate their data visually. So until next time, this has been the policy of this podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
00:27:28
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The whole team helps bring you the Policy Vis podcast. Intro and outro music is provided by the NRIs, a band based here in Northern Virginia. Audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs. Design and promotion is created with assistance from Sharon Sotsky-Ramirez, and each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you'd like to help support the podcast, please share and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:27:51
Speaker
The Policy Vis podcast is ad-free and supported by listeners, but if you would like to help support the show financially, please visit our Winnow app, PayPal page, or Patreon page, all linked and available at policyvis.com.