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Upgrade with Aditya Raj Kaul through Stories of Heroic Journalism.
105 Plays3 years ago
As a kid everyone has a dream career, you know being an astronaut, scientist, a movie star... the list goes on. But very few actually follow it through.
Aditya Raj Kaul isn’t one of them. He aspired to be a journalist & was deeply passionate about it - writing for school magazines and newspapers for a start!
As he grew up he began as an activist. Strikes odd right?
Because generally it is journalists who convert themselves into activist rather than the other way around.
But perhaps Aditya is the one odd figure who first became an activist in his student phase and then became a journalist.
But he never followed the course of an everyday teenager.
At 16 Aditya organised a protest at Jantar Mantar for Priyadarshini Mattoo’s brutal rape case, which successfully brought her justice and was observed by Anupam Kher, Shiv Khera and thousands of others.
At 17 he was invited at Rashtrapati Bhavan for a meeting with the Hon’ble Dr APJ Kalam.
At 23 he interviewed PM Modi while he was serving as the CM of Gujrat.
Tune in as host Nakul candidly converses with Aditya Raj Kaul about his exciting journey as a journalist till now.
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Transcript
Introduction and Media Learning
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello guys, welcome to upgrade with Naakon. The point of the show is, we meet interesting people, they give us their productivity hacks, the technologies they use.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hey everybody welcome to another exciting episode of upgrade with Naqul and today I have Aditya with me and Aditya was my school junior but is a superb journalist I don't know if you follow him on Twitter he gives the latest news to you and that's you know great and he's gonna talk about all about media journalism with us and
00:00:58
Speaker
Let's see what we can learn from him.
Path to Journalism
00:01:01
Speaker
Hey Aditya, how are you? Hey, Naqul. Thanks for calling me to your podcast. Very excited. I've been following your huge moves in the industry. And as you said, you know, we've come way back from school. You've been my super senior and what great Aftas now we both are in and exciting to, you know, have this conversation with you.
00:01:24
Speaker
Okay, so we know each other now for 15 years and we both were in bus together and from bus to now you become an independent journalist.
00:01:37
Speaker
How did you actually think from school that you wanted to become a journalist? How did that journey happen? What you're asking me is a long story. It's a long journey. I don't know. I mean, people would be really keen and interested to know about this. But I mean, I wanted to be a journalist always. There's a passion that was within me. And I tell this almost always to whoever asks me this question, that as a kid in school, people dream
00:02:07
Speaker
and have aspirations of becoming either a teacher or doctor or finally joining the armed forces. Similarly, I had this dream or a passion of becoming a journalist. I used to write frequently for the school newspaper and the magazine, although I was a shy kid. And, you know, journalists are usually not shy. And I always wanted to become a print journalist. I had no aspirations of actually joining the television. Destiny had some other plans, but
00:02:35
Speaker
I began as an activist.
The Mattoo Case and Media Impact
00:02:37
Speaker
I mean, not many understand this because usually journalists convert themselves into activists. I was perhaps the one odd figure who first became an activist during my student days and then turned into a journalist. So my board examinations were still on. This is back in March 2006.
00:02:57
Speaker
And I had to give one last paper of psychology. And psychology, as I remember, during those days is a subject that I didn't like very much. And I had about more than a week to study for the same. And I was mostly just loitering around. And, you know, usually people, amidst exams, become very creative and artistic and try to do much more than they usually do. So I was just, you know, loitering in my mother's office, which was near a cannot place in Delhi on Janpath.
00:03:26
Speaker
And one fine day I remember that while I was going through her computer in her office, I came across a case and I also read in the newspaper, I think it was Indian Express.
00:03:40
Speaker
about a case of Priyadashri Matu that you might have heard about, Naqul. This was a very brutal rape and murder case where Priyadashri Matu, who was a law student in Delhi University in the law faculty, was raped and murdered by her senior, who was at that time the son of a DGP of Goa. And this had happened in Vasanth Kunch in South Delhi.
00:04:01
Speaker
And for 10 years since that day, there was no hearing happening in that case. The judge in the lower court who had heard it, I think back in 96 or 97, had said that, though I know that he's the man who has committed the crime, but I give him benefit of doubt because of the lack of evidence. So the prosecution could not
00:04:19
Speaker
get enough evidence to convict or for the trial to really continue in that particular case. So I learned about it. I saw an interview of I think Pia Dushni's father on CNN by VN and I was shocked. I was somehow very impatient. I really wanted to do something. But I was a 16 year old back then. I was just about to end my schooling and I didn't know what to do. But as luck would have it,
00:04:46
Speaker
At that particular time, just browsing through the internet, and mind you, Naqul, those days there was no social media, there was no Facebook or Twitter, and all could have just about arrived. And I came across this website called petitiononline.com. And this petition, I read about it, what this really means. It means you can write whatever you want, you can address it to whoever you want, and you can collect signatures, you can spread awareness, and you can build your own campaign.
00:05:14
Speaker
petition.com has been very popular since I think 2012 now. Yes, absolutely. You get a petition once a week now. Absolutely. And I mean, there are many others that have come up now. I mean, change.org is doing the same thing like on a massive scale in India.
00:05:31
Speaker
And my friends who had been working for Change.org in the recent times. But at that particular time in 2006, till about 2010 or 2012, it wasn't really active in India. It wasn't something that, you know, Indians had really thought about. It was very much active in Europe and US, but not much in India.
00:05:50
Speaker
like 10 years behind. Absolutely. So I came across this and just as an awareness measure or perhaps to give myself satisfaction, I wrote a few paragraphs. I addressed it to the Chief Justice of India and the President of India asking for a retrial and a re-investigation in the case because it had been 10 years, the victim had died, the parents were getting old and there was no sign of justice, no light at the end of the tunnel. What were you expecting out of that letter?
00:06:17
Speaker
When you wrote it as a 16 year old, first of all, what was your emotion? Well, there were two aspects. One, as I said, I was very impatient and I wanted to do something. So give me some certain amount of satisfaction that perhaps at least, you know, at my individual level, I was trying to do something at least because I knew that, you know, I'm not a journalist. I'm not an activist. I'm not somebody who really matters in the larger scale of things. So at least my effort of a small petition
00:06:45
Speaker
even if I collect 100 signatures would have mattered in my own way. And secondly, yes, I felt that technically a retrial or a re-investigation is something that the parents really deserve at that point in time. And this really gives a very wrong signal to the common masses in India that how the judiciary or the investigative agencies are really functioning.
Activism to Journalism
00:07:05
Speaker
So I went ahead with this petition within 24 hours or a little more.
00:07:13
Speaker
I collected 1000 signatures, which was almost shocking for me. I mean, I had just sent those that prediction to about maybe 40 or 50 people. And maybe they had spread it across much more or people. In those times, we have internet was not the internet of now, right? Getting connected to 1000 people on internet was a killer task. Absolutely. I mean, if I mean, I could at that time, it was unthinkable.
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, I remember 2007 and that's when I passed my engineering, I had a total of 400 or 500 orchid friends. I hope they used to write testimonials for you.
00:07:57
Speaker
So yeah, so I remember within 24 hours or maybe in 48 hours, I received an email because a petition online.com only had a provision of giving the email of the originator of the petition, no phone numbers or the contact details. So I got an email from NDTV from a journalist, a very famous crime journalist called Anastasia Roy. And she told me that I've been desperately trying to reach you. I don't know where you stay, but we want to do a story on you, the petition that you have started.
00:08:26
Speaker
So either you call me or we want to reach out to you or meet you. So I called her.
00:08:31
Speaker
And she said, where do you stay? I said, I stay in Asiat village in South Delhi. She said, wonderful. I stay. Our office is in greater Kalash and we're just coming to your house. And I said, Oh, you need to stop a little because my board examinations are on and my parents will never allow me for any kind of interview. They said, don't worry. We'll convince your parents. And my father was traveling at that time. I think he was in Rajasthan and my mother was a little, you know, more than being furious. She was a little nervous and scared that, you know, the accused here.
00:09:01
Speaker
is a powerful person, he is son of a former DGP and anything would happen. So she almost tried to lock me in her room and my father had to convince her that, you know, let him do this interview and perhaps after this interview, he will continue studying for the last board exam.
00:09:19
Speaker
Anyways, so NDTV did that story. They flashed the story next day, saying that a 16-year-old Aditya Rajkal has started this petition, and this became a top headline because, you know, these days the TV channels are all ballistic and scream a lot, but those days they didn't scream as much. And this was perhaps the top headline for the entire day. And in the evening, I remember I think Nidhi Rajan was the anchor of that show X Factor.
00:09:48
Speaker
and I had Vinod Mehta the famous editor and former bureaucrat Harsh Mandir with me on the debate and that really triggered a huge following because they flashed my email again on their channel for the entire day and I received hundreds of emails from people asking me to take this forward and I didn't know what to do because
Journalism Beginnings and Challenges
00:10:10
Speaker
I used to tell them that boss
00:10:12
Speaker
What I did was for my own satisfaction and perhaps for awareness. And I'm not a professional activist. I don't run any NGO. I'm not even a politician or even a journalist. So I don't know what to do. Yeah, basically you would reply, hey, I'm just a kid. Yeah, I could have.
00:10:29
Speaker
So, I mean, many people got in touch and they said, no, no, nothing doing this is a great initiative, but there needs to be a next step. And I had no clue what this next step really is going to be. But there was some good smart deals. There was some good, great people from all across the globe. Again, I know there was this gentleman called Vikas from US. There was a journalist called Ridhima in Delhi. There's another guy called Vivek.
00:10:55
Speaker
I remember they're very important because these were the people who not only motivated me but they said that we'll support you, we'll come with you and you do whatever you want to and you know we should at least organize a protest and petition wherever we can. So we decided that on the birth anniversary, I think it was in July 2006, we organized a huge protest at India gate for which we didn't at the end get permission and finally we organized a protest at Jantar Mantar.
00:11:23
Speaker
And to my amazement, there were thousands of people that turned up. Again, this whole plan. In those times. Yeah. And there were no, right. And this was the same time in the Jessica Lal campaign was also underway. And so you remember Jessica Lal campaign where there was a lot of go and drive. There were a bunch of these things in those years. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I was part of the Jessica Lal campaign as well, but more importantly, because that's what
00:11:52
Speaker
I started independently. So there were these friends that came in. So we had many people that came in. Anupam Khair flew down from Mumbai to participate in the protest. We had Menika Gandhi coming in. We had, at that time, Shiv Khaira was very popular. So as a motivational speaker, he was there. We had many others. I mean, I don't remember many names, but many people came in.
00:12:17
Speaker
Next day, immediately after this protest, the High Court, the first time in 10 years, took a sumo to cochregence of the protest and said that we are putting this case on a daily hearing basis and there would be, you know, a daily hearing and immediately justice would be done. I remember I think July, this case began by October. This case had ended a person who was out for about 10 years now.
00:12:46
Speaker
was convicted to death sentence and this was huge. I mean, till that time I was not scared because people used to tell me that aren't you scared you're taking on the high and mighty and powerful, but
00:13:00
Speaker
At that time, I became a little scared because I was inside the court and the friends and family members of the accused tried to heckle me and a few other journalists. And so it became a little scary aspect. But anyways, while you are at the peak as an activist, you don't remember these small incidents.
00:13:19
Speaker
So this was it. I mean, this was I would call this as my claim to fame in a way But this was a great satisfaction for the parents of their destiny as well who were old and frail They didn't know what to do. They used to stay in Jammu. They used to start shuttle between Srinagar Jammu and Delhi and I remember very emotional meetings with them where there are tears in their eyes and they didn't know what to do but gradually the accused Santosh Kumar Singh reached out to the Supreme Court and
00:13:48
Speaker
And his death sentence, I think in 2011 or 10, was converted from a dead to life sentence. So currently his own life sentence and life sentence now in India means not 14 years, but till your death. So he's still inside prison. He's been trying to come out on humanitarian grounds, but hasn't been successful.
00:14:08
Speaker
So that's how it began. So while I was doing this, I came in contact with several students from JNU, from Amity, from Delhi University, from IP. And we started a group called United Students, particularly in Delhi University. And I became part of the anti-reservation, anti-cast based reservation movement as well.
00:14:33
Speaker
And we organized protests and press conferences, again, without much support or any planning or any financial aid. We just used to collect money ourselves and finance our own crusade. And I remember some of us just decided that we should write to the president. And the president at that time was President Kalan. And we said we should just write to him and said that, boss, I mean, this is not done and there should be at least affirmative action.
00:15:01
Speaker
and everybody should get an equal opportunity. And one fine day I got a call from, you know, I just got a call on my landline and they said, we're calling from Rashabati, and the president would like to meet you. Wow. And this was, I think, May in 2006. And I was like, wow. It took a little time to process. Yeah.
00:15:27
Speaker
talk about love. I wouldn't believe it. It took a couple of minutes for me to digest this because
00:15:36
Speaker
They immediately asked, so can you give us the card number and how many people will come? And I was like, can you give me a few minutes to get back to you? So I did this with my team and, you know, five of us went finally. And the president met us for a good one hour. We had a good discussion and I was the youngest among them. I was 17 at that point in time. And I remember coming out of the Rashabati Bhawan at the forecourt and there was huge media presence because reservation in 2006 had become a boiling issue.
00:16:07
Speaker
But what was the discussion with the president?
Career in TV Journalism
00:16:11
Speaker
It was a very interesting discussion where we did less talking and he did more talking. And as an educator, as a teacher, as a wonderful personality, he told us that, you know, we should focus on your studies. Don't worry much about this. This will be taken care of. And particularly to me, because he said, how old are you? I said, I'm 17.
00:16:33
Speaker
He said, so where do you study? I said, I'll just pass out of school. I'm about to join Delhi University. This doesn't even concern you so much. Why are you so worried? You should focus on your studies. So I said, I'm focusing on my studies, but I think I should be doing much more for the society. And this is a just cause. So I think he was very patient. He was very empathetic. Yeah, I love that. I thought that was the only
00:17:03
Speaker
kind of the right appointment. We Indians did a very long time. Yeah, I agree. And it's time to come. Yeah. Till before him and after him, president has just become a symbolic feature. Yeah. It has no value. And he was the president. Everybody's like, oh, he was the people's president. People loved him. He was, I mean,
00:17:30
Speaker
He wasn't really elected from voting, but I'm sure if they would have been voting, he would have won from a landslide. So yes, he had this deep charisma. Also another thing, Naqul, I don't know if you would know this, because you used to come to Asht village very frequently in the bus. Kalam used to stay in Asht village. Oh, I had no clue. So he used to stay in Asht village for many, many years. So remember before becoming the president, he was in the DRDO.
00:18:00
Speaker
And in DRDO, he had a guest house accommodation there. And in that guest house, he used to, I mean, almost for two decades, he used to stay there. So I had met him on the eve of him becoming the president. And remember I was in school, I think it was 2001, if I'm not wrong. And I took Abhinav with me and there was another girl, Anu.
00:18:24
Speaker
And yeah, he was very encouraging. And, you know, this was just on the eve and he was so busy with all the protocol officers, etc. What has to be done tomorrow at Rastabhati Bhawan. But he gave us time. So yeah, so that was a brief meeting with him. So anyway, so these two campaigns really became, you know, kickstart a moment for me. But at the back of my mind, I knew that journalism was my calling and this really isn't really going to help me.
00:18:53
Speaker
much in my journalistic career. So that's how it began. So did you think that journalism will help you become a stronger activist? Is that the goal? I don't think so. I basically, how should I explain? I mean, my life in a way has had an impact on my thinking and my approach and how I have perceived things.
00:19:23
Speaker
So my background, if I can briefly tell you, is from Kashmir. I was born in Kashmir in 1989, but due to terrorism and violence, we had to move out. So my family and my community. And we had to stay in a temporary accommodation and refugee camp for a few months, which was almost like a garage accommodation in Jammu in sweltering heat.
00:19:46
Speaker
And then gradually we moved to Delhi. My parents, you know, had to start life from scratch. So I have seen their hardships. I've seen how they basically, you know, did everything possible that I wasn't uncomfortable, that I didn't feel the pain of exile. I remember first, I don't remember. I'm told because I'm very, I was very young at that time.
00:20:12
Speaker
That first time when we came to Delhi for the first six months in East Delhi, we used to stay in a room which had no windows. So I kind of have had these things at the back of my mind. So this perhaps also led to my initial years in activism that I had this rage or fire or anger within me, which I wanted to channelize in some way.
00:20:39
Speaker
And particularly about the Prehathisti Mantu case, in the year 2003, early 2003, I lost one of my cousin's sisters. She was my eldest cousin's sister, my aunt's daughter. And she basically died mysteriously. So nobody knew how it happened. Although there was a lot of suspicions that this might have had, her in-laws had some role.
00:21:06
Speaker
But the family was so shocked that we couldn't pursue this legally at that particular time. So I think that too was something in the back of my mind that I couldn't do much for my own sister at that time. So at least I could do something for somebody else in the society. So these things have had an impact. So I don't think I see activism and journalism connected in a way.
00:21:33
Speaker
For me personally, although, you know, there are people who say that journalism is a form of activism in a way. But personally, I think I differentiated it very much so as an activist and a journalist. And as I said, activism was just an accident. And gradually after the Prejoshni Matu and the reservation campaign, I did one more thing.
00:21:56
Speaker
I realized that I didn't do much for my community. So I found a group called Roots in Kashmir. So this was basically a group of passionate, young Kashmiri bandits who were my age, maybe older. And we used to campaign, we used to spread awareness, organize symposiums and seminars and exhibitions, often protests as well. And we did this for about, I think from 2006, December, to
00:22:24
Speaker
about 2008 or 9. Around 2008 or 9, I decided that if I had to pursue my career in journalism, I couldn't continue as an activist. So 2008 is when I started writing for the Times of India as a student of Delhi University. And that's when I decided and I had a very emotional meeting and a parting with folks at Roots in Kashmir who didn't want me to go
00:22:51
Speaker
But I told them that, you know, time had come and I had to bid adieu. And finally I decided that activism was think of the past. I did my bit, whatever I could, with my friends. And now we need to pursue journalism. So I started writing for the Times of India. Then I wrote for an Australian publication as well. A few other publications. While I was a student of Delhi University, I later went to St Xavier's in Bombay. I pursued my journalism there.
00:23:21
Speaker
And finally, as I always wanted to do print journalism, I landed up at Sunday Indian magazine. I started writing for them. That's when I interviewed Prime Minister Modi when he was the Chief Minister of Gujarat at that time. And I also interviewed the chief of Hizbul Mujahideen, the terror organization in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. So in my journalism career, I think I was just about
00:23:48
Speaker
I think 23 at that time, 22 or 23. And so that really again became my claim to fame as a journalist. When you started interviewing big short people, how did you get those opportunities? Because I believe 23 and you're still early on in your career. You know, people don't give chances to young journalists. You have to earn it and you're a senior journalist. How did that happen?
00:24:15
Speaker
So while I was doing my post-graduation, and I need to tell you this because this is the only one academic claim to fame. So I went to post-graduation because my parents didn't expect that they had in their mind that perhaps I'll just do my graduation and that's about it. I went for post-graduation and that was a last minute decision that I took because perhaps I said, you know,
00:24:41
Speaker
I should at least be a full graduate. So I went to Bombay to St. Xavier's which is a great place to study and be and I ended up being the student of the year and I wasn't academically very strong there as well to be very honest but fortunately they saw all corners, all sides including my journalism, my passion
00:25:04
Speaker
my way with things. And it isn't just academics that mattered there. So I became the student of the year, which was a surprise to me as well and to my fellow students who were toppers in the class that why didn't they get that. But anyways, so I think I got a lot of motivation out of that thing as well. And so you said, how did I ended up initially? So while I was in Delhi University,
00:25:32
Speaker
As luck would have it, I was invited for many events. So although I was young and it's almost unthinkable that I am a student of Delhi University, but I was invited as chief guest to many events in Delhi University itself. So I think I was, I can't recollect if it was the Khalsa College or
Media Challenges and Digital Shift
00:25:52
Speaker
the SRCC, one of these two events where I was there. And I think there were a few ministers and somebody from the Sunday Indian
00:26:02
Speaker
magazine is well there, who had seen me. And after I did my post-graduation, although times now and others had reached out and they said that, you know, I should join, but somehow I was not inclined towards television. So I got a call from Sunday Indian and they said that, would you like to join us? And so I came to Delhi back from Bombay and I joined them.
00:26:26
Speaker
But it was a great opportunity for me. Certainly, it was a great break. I got great money and I got great opportunity, a good designation as well. I joined them as a special correspondent in the beginning of my career. So I think later I realized, although I did my best there in the 10 months or a year that I spent there, I realized that it was a very comfortable job for me. It was almost like a retirement job.
00:26:53
Speaker
Because I felt that if I don't face any challenges or if I don't travel or if I just don't exert a little more or exhaust myself at the end of the day, then we ought to die. And I was in my early 20s back then. So I had this early realization that this is the time that I can really go out there, travel, face challenges, et cetera.
00:27:18
Speaker
Uh, I think in the later half of thirties, et cetera, I'm not going to do that. And I didn't, I didn't want to regret it later. So finally I decided that maybe, uh, even though I was not inclined to join television, that I should in fact, give television an opportunity. So I reached out to Times Now, I reached out to Arnab at that time. And although Arnab really was really keen to get me on board, but they somehow had this apprehension about my activism past.
00:27:48
Speaker
And I had a huge, huge, not argument, but, you know, on and off debate with them about this for over nine months, that whether, you know, I will be able to accommodate myself in times now or not, whether, you know, my activism will get in way of my journalism there. So I had to convince them that, you know, that's think of the past and they didn't need to worry about anything.
00:28:16
Speaker
Their concern was that if you will remain neutral or become partial to one side. That's right. Their concern was that and especially about Kashmir because I had come into prominence in the Kashmir debate and I used to, particularly on Kashmir, join these 9 p.m. prime time debates very often, all across channels from NDTV to Times Now to CNN, with Ravi, Barkha, Niti, Arna, all of them.
00:28:43
Speaker
So all of them knew me, but they had this apprehension. Finally, they were convinced and Adam hired me. And I was there with them for four years. Again, wonderful, great opportunities. Before we go ahead, I actually want to ask you how neutral can you remain on a subject which is very emotional to you? Again, there are two things. One is the wider question of neutrality.
00:29:09
Speaker
whether a journalist today is neutral or not. I would say nobody is neutral. Yeah, I'm a political layman or a journalism layman, right? And for me, everybody has a bias. When I read the newspaper, when I see the TV, I can see the bias. I can see that whenever they're talking about a subject,
00:29:40
Speaker
They've already decided who's right or wrong. And then they're doing a narration and they're trying to influence the viewer. Yeah. I hardly see a neutral point of view. Right. Right. So, uh, Nakula, you, I think you are right because, uh, all the years I've also realized because I'm working with multiple channels, multiple media organizations, I've interacted with all, you know,
00:30:08
Speaker
journalists from all backgrounds and ages and ideologies. And I say ideology because, you know, let's face it, the media in India or elsewhere is divided between right and left now. So I think if anybody tells you that I'm a neutral journalist and I don't have a bias, I think you should not trust them. I think you should not have faith in the kind of journalism that they're doing. I think mostly maybe there's a rare somebody who is genuine.
00:30:37
Speaker
But I think media is certainly very much divided on issues. People are emotional. And it is unthinkable that any journalist will not have an opinion about a particular issue. One, yes, a journalist would be clever enough to hide that opinion. But I think everybody has an opinion almost on all issues. It depends that whether he reflects that opinion on television or in newspaper or magazine or a website or not. So you asked me about
00:31:07
Speaker
neutrality on an emotional issue. There are two things. One, there are many times that on stories, I used to just recuse myself. I used to tell them that, you know, if there was a Kashmiri Pandit protest or there was a story in regard to a Kashmiri Pandit, I used to tell them that I will not do it. And I'm sure many editors at times now, many desk people will be witness to this fact and they would be messages still on my phone.
00:31:36
Speaker
where I would say that please send somebody else and I won't be comfortable doing this and this would be not the right call. It's not that I don't trust myself. It's that in the perception or the narrative of the people who would be witnessing that story, they won't be comfortable or they won't trust me enough with that particular story. So I would recuse myself immediately. It is certainly on
00:32:02
Speaker
particularly when you have faced a lot of discrimination or a lot of hard life due to a political turmoil or violence etc. It is certainly difficult. I won't say it is easy. It is certainly difficult but it depends on the person, on the individual, on the journalist how he or she takes it forward.
00:32:27
Speaker
Now, let's talk about a very interesting thing you said. You said you interviewed the Hizbul chief in POK. How did that come about and how was that experience? So I didn't go to POK, but I did this on phone. I wasn't sure if I go to POK if I'll come back. So as a 22 year old or 23 year old back then,
00:32:54
Speaker
I arranged the number through some of my sources. And there is a story after this also, which I will tell you. But it was a great feeling because usually, you know, I tend to feel that, you know, terrorists should not be given space in media. I am of the bent of mind that, you know, we should not interview terrorists. But, you know, Hizbul Chief came out to me as a very different kind of figure. He was very well educated.
00:33:24
Speaker
He was somebody who had left his entire family in Kashmir and stayed in POK for almost three decades now. His own children are political science professors and somebody also working with the GNK Bank and others. So when I called him, he didn't know that I'm a Kashmiri. We spoke in English and Hindi, and mind you, he spoke fluent English.
00:33:49
Speaker
and he spoke we spoke in English Hindi Urdu and Somehow, I don't know usually what happens if two Kashmiris are chatting you end up, you know speaking some Kashmiri So I think I did that mistake after 15 pretty minutes of conversation and I think in Kashmiri and he said are you a Kashmiri? I said, yeah, I am a Kashmiri and so then he started speaking in Kashmiri as well. So I think those 20-25 minutes of interview was a good opportunity for me and
00:34:19
Speaker
Later, I think three months later, I got a call from the National Investigative Agency, NIA, saying that our senior officer would like to meet you. So I didn't know what this was about. So I went in. Those days, I think their office used to be in Chassola, the headquarters. And I went there. And a senior officer, I think the SSP rank met me and said that, you know, we've got a conversation of you with the Hizbul chief.
00:34:47
Speaker
and so we would like to talk to you about it so I said yeah sure I mean I would love to help you whatever your questions are so they just generally asked me about you know how things went and you know how did I get the number how did I get etc I told them everything
00:35:03
Speaker
Uh, but I didn't tell them how I got the number because I told them that, you know, for a journalist, a source is most important. So I'm not going to reveal my source. I can just tell you to one thing that either my source is a negative antisocial element across the border or the source is somebody like you officer. So it is somebody like you. So, uh, so he was shut at that moment and he didn't pursue that question anymore.
00:35:31
Speaker
So I had that thing. Later I realized that they added me as a witness in one of the terror Hawala cases against Syed Salauddin that was being run by the NIA.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah. And did you publish that interview? Yeah, I can. Later I can send you the copy. I would love to listen. These guys are so interesting. It is very interesting to see what they're thinking, how they're thinking. Absolutely. I think that was the purpose because, you know, I have been very vocal against both terrorists as well as separatists. Personally speaking, you know, anybody who stands for violence
00:36:10
Speaker
who stands for, you know, who doesn't believe in the Constitution, is somebody who we should not engage with, who we should not give space honestly. But I think there are a couple of figures that I was really intrigued by. And I just for my own experience wanted to, you know, chat with them and know, you know, what their personality really is. So one is Syed Salaudin. And another fellow was Syed Alisha Gilani. I mean, I'm sure you would have seen him on television and on paper.
00:36:38
Speaker
white bearded fellow from Kashmir in his 90s now. He's the head of the separatist movement, right? Yeah, so he's the chief of the Huryat and he's been in Kashmir since ages earlier. He was in Emily also more than three decades ago, but then he left mainstream politics and joined separatism. So I was at an India Today conclave in Taj Hotel in Delhi and I was invited as a guest by the India Today. So for the Kashmir session and the current Kerala governor
00:37:08
Speaker
Arif Mohamad Khan, who was one of the panelists. There was also Baru Kaptula, and there was Syed Salaudi. Sorry, Syed Alisha Gilani. So three of them were speaking, and I was one of the guests in the audience. And they were diplomats from different countries. They were government representatives. They were opposition leaders. There was who's who in the audience. And while the event ended, somehow I got a surprise, although I wasn't told about this,
00:37:35
Speaker
The moderator of this session, a very senior journalist called Manoj Joshi, he invited me. Somehow I felt that Arun Puri, the Chief of India today, had told him to invite me. And he invited me for the last comments and said that, would you like to say something or ask a question? So this was like an opportunity for me. So I lost it completely. And I, you know, I just hid out at Gilani.
00:38:01
Speaker
saying that, you know, I know what ideology you come from, and you stand for gun culture and violence, and you haven't even stood by your own people, and your own people in Huryat have been killed by the gun that you stand for. And I couldn't believe my eyes, and that debate, et cetera, event wasn't being televised live on Artstuck in India today, elsewhere. The clip later went viral all across. The people in the audience started hooting Kilani on my whatever comments happened.
00:38:32
Speaker
So later I received threats, et cetera. Also, I remember being a little shaken, but I think in a few years from that moment, I think this was 2010 or 11. Who was threatening you? People close to Gilani, you know, saying that, you know, you need to mend your ways and be careful and otherwise there would be consequences. And so I remember, I remember complaining to a Delhi police as well and, you know,
00:39:02
Speaker
There wasn't much that happened. But anyways, so this happened and later, Gilani was put into house arrest for many months and finally after house arrest, he had come to Delhi. So I was working in Sunday, India, and I think this was in 2012 or 13, and I reached out to him for an interview. So after this entire episode, I had the, you know, the call to, in fact, go to his house in South Delhi in Madhya Nagar, and I met him there and I interviewed him.
00:39:32
Speaker
for my magazine and it was a again a good experience for me although you know I didn't stand for whatever he said in that particular interview but yeah this was another experience worth it while I was working with the print media yeah I think it's very actually it's very tough to and as a maybe a journalist is more tougher because you're not in a debate you're trying to hear the person out and
00:40:02
Speaker
If the views are totally completely opposite to yours, it's very difficult to stay quiet. True that, true that. It is difficult, but you know, as a journalist, you need to focus more on your work instead of, you know, what's right or what's wrong. So how was your shift from print to TV? How did that happen? Yeah, again, as I said, the so-called retirement job that had
00:40:30
Speaker
I wasn't very comfortable. In fact, I was very comfortable. That's the reason I quit. And so finally, Times Now was convinced that I would be able to do justice. And again, I was a shy person even back then. And it was initially very difficult for me to face the camera. You know, live broadcasts were very difficult, but I think it was a smooth transition.
00:40:52
Speaker
It happened well. And I think the four years that I spent in times now would be the best of my career. I would always remember that. Not only because I got to cover conflict, foreign policy, and internal security as much as I wanted, but because I give a lot of opportunities. Although I used to slog a lot, I had no time for my family. I had no time even sometimes for food.
00:41:21
Speaker
Uh, but you know, I did whatever I could and those were the learning years, so I don't regret it. Uh, many people, you know, regret working with Arnaud many times, but I think it, for me personally, since I got opportunities, so I had a great time. So, um, I mean, I worked as a foreign journalist in the sense that I used to travel abroad frequently. While I was at times now, I visited almost 15 countries, uh, you know, from G20 summit to SOC summit.
00:41:49
Speaker
G20 in Australia, Sark in Nepal, the EU summit in Belgium, to many others.
00:42:01
Speaker
Even I remember one of the most memorable trips was to Israel and Palestine. The first ever head of state from India to visit Israel and Palestine was Pranamukhachi in 2015. So I was part of his delegation. And I think there were senior journalists, there were about 20 or 30 senior editors, 20 or 25 who were with him. And at that time, if you were part of the delegation, you had to travel with the president on his own airplane.
00:42:31
Speaker
But we took a moral stand. I remember we took a moral stand and we said that we'll travel, but we'll travel privately. We won't travel with the president just because we don't want to take any favors. So we'll cover everything. We'll report everything. But we will not take the flight. We will buy our own tickets. We'll stay in our own hotel. And we'll pay our own travel locally. But we will not take any privileges, et cetera.
00:43:01
Speaker
So although I remember them being very surprised at this because they said never before has this happened, you know, at Rastapati Bhavan, but if you want to.
00:43:11
Speaker
It's great. So more than a moral stand, I think this worked in my favor because Israel and Palestine, as you know, there's a conflict raging there and it's not easy to travel. So if I was with a delegation, I had to go through all the security protocols. I couldn't independently go out and report or travel anywhere or meet people. I had to seek permission and I could only move out if the president wanted
00:43:35
Speaker
You know to move out. So I was only allowed along with the president delegation. So as an independent person there I could go anywhere. So I remember frequently, you know traveling from Jerusalem to Ramallah in Palestine. This was just about 40 minutes distance and I frequently travel I mean, I remember one day before because I had arrived two days in advance. So one day before President finally arriving, I think I got busy because I was recording etc
00:44:06
Speaker
So I came out late and somebody from the Indian Mission in Palestine got to know and they called me and they almost, you know, screamed at me that, you know, we don't dare travel between Palestine and Israel at night and, you know, at daytime and you are doing it at night at midnight. So it was fun. It was great for me personally. And the most astonishing or most surprising aspect was
00:44:31
Speaker
that for two days I did a lot of Reki. I visited a lot of places in Ramallah, in Jerusalem. I traveled a lot and I also went to the President's house in Ramallah. So, usually you don't get big time interviews. You had to plan this months or maybe weeks in advance. But I just left a small note with the President's media advisor and I told him that I would be really honored if the President Mambu the bus
00:45:00
Speaker
gives me an opportunity for an interview. So I just left it there and I forgot about it because, you know, usually it does not happen. It is unthinkable that it will happen. And my video journalist, a very nice fellow called Sachin Ravat, he said, boss, you know, I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to you. But so next day in the evening when the president arrived and everything is happening,
00:45:29
Speaker
So usually I'm obviously presidents I have to cover all the president's events but for a couple of events I wasn't there because I got a call from the president's, you know office in Ramallah saying that you know We've been calling you and your number is unreachable. The president wants to give you the interview Okay, when he said, you know anytime you just come
00:45:52
Speaker
I was like, wow, I said, I just have one camera and, you know, is it okay? They said, oh, that's okay. We will arrange the, you know, the duration of Palestine, which was the Palestine television. And we asked them to arrange more cameras, et cetera, for you. So I did that interview with Mahmud Apas and that was a great experience.
00:46:12
Speaker
in itself but also for me because I was the youngest journalist in the delegation and there were senior editors who were puzzled and you know perplexed that how did this 24 year old fellow ended up doing this interview with the president so I think that was a great opportunity and I remember after the interview president shook my hand and he said that you know I look forward to meet you in India someday and I said yeah God willing we'll meet
00:46:40
Speaker
And then he asked me, will it be OK if we click a photograph? I said, yes, of course, it will be my order. So it was a great, great experience. So he gave me an autographed photograph of him, which I now keep in my study. Wow. But what kind of environment is there in these kind of conferences? Is everybody tensed about what's going to happen or it's a party time?
00:47:09
Speaker
See, usually there are two or three aspects to your question that I will answer. One, I would divide these events or conferences or visits into two segments.
00:47:22
Speaker
One is the normal course that happens like a multilateral summit like G20 or SARC, for instance, or BRICS, where we know that it is going to be a two-day or a three-day affair. The Prime Minister or the President is going to speak on the second day on this time slot. We will not be allowed inside. We will have a separate media enclosure. We'll have to do this. We'll have to do that. So everything is almost planned or decided. We know the drill, basically. But if it is a conflict area, if it is a place like Palestine or Israel,
00:47:52
Speaker
or for instance even South Korea, North Korea is unthinkable. I think there are different protocols to be kept in mind. The journalists who travel have to think about the security aspect, have to think about what all is advisable, where you can travel, etc. But I think much before this, I'll tell you about a very brief experience that I had. My first foreign visit
00:48:19
Speaker
or perhaps not foreign visit but foreign professional visit was to Iraq in 2014 when the ISIS really became the famous terror organization all across the globe and if you remember Naqul, some Indians were kidnapped by the ISIS in 2014 and Mosul and Tikrit in Iraq. These were the guys who were drilling for oil.
00:48:46
Speaker
They were working in different aspects. I mean, one, there were two groups of Indians who were kidnapped. One group was construction workers and oil drillers who were mainly from Punjab, mainly in the Saldars and Sikh. And the other group was of nurses that happened in Tikrit. So I had to go there, but the Iraq Embassy in New Delhi was not giving visas. I was saying that, you know,
00:49:16
Speaker
We can't do that because of the security, you know, thing development there. And the Indian government has refused us to grant visas to Indian nationals. So we can't go ahead. So it was a mighty task for me. So my company gave me an offer that, you know, either you go to Turkey or you go to Jordan. And from there in the Iraq mission, you apply a visa and finally visit Iraq. So although I was very keen to go to Turkey, my friends advised me to go to Jordan and Jordan is a place where you can finally get the visa.
00:49:47
Speaker
And there is a Jordan-Iraq border, which is very volatile. So maybe we can get a report from there as well. So I finally landed in Amman in Jordan and I went to the Iraqi embassy and it was a mighty task. It took a week for me to just get a big bowl of steel. So I had to beg almost before them that because they were not convinced that, you know, why?
00:50:11
Speaker
I was in Jordan and why didn't I not apply in Delhi and instead here? So I had to tell you a long story that I was just visiting Jordan for some travel and my office just wants me to go from here so kindly do this. So I had to give them a written this thing that if something happens to me in Iraq in violence or terrorism or whatever, I will be responsible. I can't hold the Iraq government or whatever responsible for it.
00:50:38
Speaker
Although I got an opportunity to visit Iraq Jordan border, which was like about 400 kilometers away. And it was great because Al Jazeera was the only channel reporting from there and it was desert for hundreds of kilometers. So I reported from there. I finally went to Iraq and to be very honest, I was very scared.
00:51:00
Speaker
Usually if you speak to a war journalist or a conflict reporter, they will, you know, praise themselves a lot or give you anecdotes about their travel, etc. But honestly, I was very scared. One also because, you know, I was almost alone. I had just one video journalist who couldn't speak much of English. And this was my first foreign assignment. So, you know, I spent another, I think, week or two week in Iraq, in Baghdad.
00:51:29
Speaker
And that's how it all started. And that was the first big assignment that I'd caught from Times Now. And this will remain a memory forever. And finally, I tracked the Indians very closely. Fortunately, the nurses were released from there within the two days of my arrival. But the six gentlemen who were all, I think, 40 of them who were kidnapped, couldn't be traced. And years later, I think this was just about two or three years back,
00:51:59
Speaker
the Government of India declared them dead. So four years in time now? Yeah. And then? So four years in times now and although I was at that time very much at the peak of my TV career and Adnab offered me that, you know, he wants to start his own initiative and, you know. Yeah, you join Republic. I should start, you know, I should start this channel with him. So initially I was in two minds that, you know, should I or shouldn't I?
00:52:29
Speaker
One reason that really triggered and, you know, I decided immediately was the fact that he gave me a lot of opportunities. So, you know, you feel not exactly indebted, but yes, indebted that, you know, this guy has gone all the way for me as a young journalist. He's given me a lot of opportunities. So why not at least give him back and, you know, if he's starting something new, trust him.
00:52:52
Speaker
and go about. And I had the confidence that Arnab knew the business. So I wouldn't say Arnab knows only journalism. He knew the business. He knew the marketing and sales, how to do it. So that's how Times Now has been successful. So I joined Republic with him. I joined as an associate editor there, one of the founding members of Republic team. I hired, in fact, the initial team that was
00:53:20
Speaker
started the entire channel finally from the desk to the reporters to the bureau chiefs I got them on board so I spent two years in Republic and again I used to Kashmir I covered very very closely in Republic days
00:53:37
Speaker
I traveled to Kashmir very frequently. I covered several terror attacks in Kashmir as well as in Jammu. I remember also traveling to China once for the BRICS summit in Xinjiang. And that's about it. I mean, Republic days were a good learning experience again for me. But I think by the end of 2018, I realized that, you know, I need a break.
00:54:04
Speaker
Because six years in television is huge. And especially if you're working with Arnaud Goswami, it's massive. So I think I desperately needed a break. And I also needed time to reflect and ponder how I need to really pursue this much ahead. So while I quit Republic, I immediately got an offer from a business channel called BTBI, which was earlier Bloomberg. And they wanted me to do my own show.
00:54:32
Speaker
on strategic affairs and internal security and conflict, which I did for six months there as well. So that's when I finally took a break from television last year. Okay. And what are you up to these days? Well, you know, I've been an independent journalist since September 2019.
00:54:56
Speaker
By the end of 2019, I got an invitation from the US State Department for an exchange fellowship. And in January and Feb for a month, I was in US. I spent time with the US State Department and different other organizations, et cetera, particularly in Washington DC and Iowa. So I followed the elections very closely. I was fortunate enough to, you know,
00:55:24
Speaker
participate in the initial events of Joe Biden, Andrew Yang, and a few others in Iowa.
00:55:33
Speaker
And so it was a great experience for me. And since then, I've been writing for different publications, appearing on television as well sometimes, and just doing whatever I want to. So I've been an independent journalist, although I wouldn't say that I've quit TV forever, but I'm still trying to understand how TV or the digital market is going to move ahead. Because there is a lot of churning that's happening, Naqul.
00:56:02
Speaker
And a lot of changes that will happen, not just in India, but globally. Yeah. The business of media has changed overall, right? It's not making money. I would say that, you see, I said this to somebody very recently that I wouldn't call or write TV's obituary yet, but newspapers are dying. So newspapers are almost
00:56:30
Speaker
at that stage that they are on the ventilator. So newspaper will last another five years maximum or about eight years. But in five years, I think newspapers will be non-existent because even today, if you see newspapers are almost digital, all of them.
00:56:46
Speaker
And newspapers, maybe for the old world, Jam, my father buys the Times of India and Dene Jagran every day since last many years. But for last, at least five to six years, I don't remember going through the newspaper. I get all my content from Twitter, from other apps and websites. I'm on the same league as your father. I'm old school.
00:57:16
Speaker
So I need my, my morning routine is the newspaper if I don't need the newspaper. No, I and while I'm on Twitter and I read all the apps and everything, but
00:57:27
Speaker
My, you know, the daily routine is so fake that I need the newspaper. Which is true, which is for many people, I think. But I still feel that slowly, even before coronavirus pandemic, that people have been shifting more from newspapers to the digital field. And Corona has triggered this huge push for the newspapers as well, because I know for a fact that newspapers are not making money at all.
00:57:56
Speaker
So and their revenues are decreasing and even the copies that they are printing now are decreasing every other week. So I think as I said newspapers are you know going to last just a few years. But I do feel and again this may be my bias towards print that if you read an article in the newspaper
00:58:23
Speaker
is more neutral to maybe a story on digital and maybe especially on television. I agree. If you talk about a newspaper on our television, any day newspaper would have in fact, you know, more balanced coverage.
00:58:43
Speaker
Yeah. I wouldn't call all newspapers, you know, again, neutral, et cetera. But I still feel newspapers justify their coverage. They do comprehensive coverage. They try to at least give all sides some kind of perspective and space in the newspaper. But, you know, you'll be astonished, Naqul. Since the year 2016, mainly, even before for that matter,
00:59:12
Speaker
I haven't watched television since 2016. I have been working in television, but I have stopped watching television. I do get my content
00:59:24
Speaker
from Netflix or Prime sometimes. But otherwise, particularly news channels on television I've stopped watching since 2016. And I'm pretty sure that even people have been slowly doing that and slowly turning into mobile phones as well. And more so, this has happened in the COVID-19 pandemic.
00:59:50
Speaker
that content has shifted more to your mobile screens and people, both their digital video and text has drastically shifted towards mobile. And I'm pretty sure that even news channels are recalibrating and re-strategizing as to how to focus more on mobile phones because there are apps like the Geo TV, etc., where you get everything.
01:00:19
Speaker
on your mobile phone so why bother about a television so people usually what they do many of my friends also do that they get all their content news etc from their mobile and they usually keep their television sets only from netflix and the you know ott platforms yeah but so i agree on some news channels i i have i have not watched for a while uh maybe five six years news channels on tv
01:00:46
Speaker
and especially the debates. The debates are disgusting. Everybody is just trying to shout their opinion and nobody is willing to listen. So those are just weird. I'm glad that you said this instead of me because I didn't want to do the dirty job. No, but you know, people love it. I say this always that while many people criticize this, my father, for example, I hope he's not listening
01:01:15
Speaker
Uh, he criticizes, I used to criticize a lot, and he used to criticize times now and take a lot for particularly for many of the debates on prime time and say that, you know, has he lost it? Uh, why is he screaming so much? And you know, this is not done. This is not how graceful debates happen. You need to give everyone opportunity and you can't just scream and you know, and then.
01:01:39
Speaker
In a couple of days, he's again watching the same channel and the same debate. And I know so many people who love those debates, but they don't add value to anybody, right? It's just 10 people giving their own opinion and nobody's listening. Problem, Nakul, is that the Indian masses and the Indian audience loves Tamasha. They love chaos. They love a lot of screaming, shouting, etc.
01:02:10
Speaker
And if that sells, then that's it. Yeah. So I always say this that, you know, rhetoric sells in India. So this rhetoric, I wouldn't like to speak in detail, but recently we saw what happened in the Sushant Sun Rajput case. I mean, media turned into a court.
01:02:36
Speaker
and things really happened as per media's whims and fantasies. But that happens on actually every aspect now, right? Every aspect, yes. It's not true facts which are coming out. It's a WhatsApp university which is creating fictional news.
01:02:56
Speaker
you know, it was only happening in corruption cases. Like I remember the rail gate, the coal gate or the CWD scam, et cetera, that used to happen. And a Gusta Westland scam. So there used to be a lot of screaming, a lot of outrage over it, which is still to an extent understandable because people are upset. People want transparency and accountability, et cetera. But now that, you know, it has become a fish market,
01:03:23
Speaker
where only people who can scream or fight or jostle get more space, etc. It is funny. It is hilarious. I think this is one of the major reasons that I couldn't accommodate myself. And you know, I decided that at least I need a break.
01:03:40
Speaker
from this and need to calm down. I think at least more than me, people on the prime time need to calm down. But I think I just said that, you know, I can't scream. So as much as I try, but that's not in my nature. The people they invite for the debate show
01:04:06
Speaker
They're also, they're only looking for people who can give a very extreme opinion. Absolutely. And, and just shout about it. They don't give, you know, for example, they don't, they don't want a balanced view. They don't want somebody or somebody as a viewer who's a neutral party. Now I consider myself a very neutral guy, politically, right? I voted for Congress. I voted voted for BJP.
01:04:34
Speaker
I like some things about BJP. I like some things about the opposition. But in India, either you are left or right. You can't be neutral. Why can't you be neutral? I will just correct you a little, although I completely agree with you, Naqul. The problem here is not just about India. India, yes. You know, we have happening this huge churning is happening politically.
01:05:01
Speaker
and on media as well, particularly in media, significantly in media, because media is still at a very nascent stage here. We are still learning. We are still accommodating. We are still evolving. But if you closely monitor United States,
01:05:17
Speaker
It is worse than India. If you see the kind of divide that is happening post the elections also, when Joe Biden and Trump are at loggerheads, Trump is not ready to concede and Joe Biden has declared himself a winner obviously. So the kind of messages that I track on Twitter
01:05:45
Speaker
on the television screens in the US also, the media is again divided there. The media is divided between right and the left. You saw the screaming matches that happened between Trump and CNN particularly, with Trump in New York Times and Washington Post.
01:06:03
Speaker
And I think it is much more divided there as well. And the same thing is reflective here. I remember, you know, there was, I think some website had done a foreign website or an Indian website had done a television, a digital piece on Republic and said that Public TV is Fox TV on steroids. So, you know, we learn,
01:06:31
Speaker
And we try to ape the West. So that's what is happening in the media as well. There's a strong, huge divide that has evolved in the United States, which somehow not many of us may be bothered to observe. But the same reflection is happening on a much worse scale here, because I'm going to tell you more about it.
01:06:56
Speaker
This will take a lot of time to, you know, change, mature, evolve. Eventually it will happen. But Abhi, unfortunately, has not been able to change the world.
01:07:21
Speaker
If I tweet something which goes positive towards Narendra Modi or BJP, if something about Arvind Kejriwal, I'm an Abtard, or if it is the Congress, then I'm a Papu supporter, etc.
01:07:40
Speaker
So this keeps happening, unfortunately, because of what media has become and done to itself, is learning its lessons, unfortunately. But Nagul, in the Indian media context, what I will tell you is that while Arnab is criticized, maybe sometimes for the right reasons,
01:08:07
Speaker
There is the other side also. And the other side is years ago when I used to monitor media and we didn't know, you know, we used to consider NDTV and others like very neutral and gospel truth givers. And I remember the Radia Gate, you know, what was the Radia Gate? A particular journalist who used to speak between corporate lobbyists and politicians trying to fix cabinet births.
01:08:36
Speaker
I mean, this is unthinkable. And again, during that time, there was no action taken. There was no investigative agencies took no action at all. And everything happened, and everything was okay, hunky-dory again. And I remember, I didn't mention this in the conversation, Nicole. While I was on my first debate on NDTV, this was March 2006 with Devi Rastan, and I told you that Vinod Mehta was with me.
01:09:04
Speaker
And while walking out of the office, Vinod Mehta was very generous. He was old, frail at that time as well. And he said that, you look young man, if you need any help, anytime you reach out to me, I'll help you because you're taking on the powerful and don't worry about anything. So I was really happy, excited, et cetera. Just a few years later, the Radia gate happened. Vinod Mehta was one of the two magazines that dared to publish about journalists and fixers on the front page of the Outlook magazine.
01:09:33
Speaker
of which he was the editor-in-chief. I don't know if you know this or came across at that time. NDTV immediately banned Vinod Mehta from appearing on the channel. Now imagine, because of the Radiagate coverage, Vinod Mehta was banned. And similar thing happened with me as well. On Kashmir, because I was very much against separatists and terrorists, and Barkha and others knew very well what my views are going to be,
01:10:01
Speaker
They gagged me as well. They banned me from the television. I used to appear regularly on their prime time, on their, you know, what I was, be the people and the big fight and other programs. And immediately one fine day a friend who was very close to them informed me that, you know, they have taken a call and they've banned you and they won't further invite you ever. So this used to happen. And, you know, this is unfortunate while there are these huge
01:10:29
Speaker
editors and journalists who claim to have millions of followers on Twitter, in reality, they have been very biased and they have been unfair to their own tribe. So Vinod Mehta, who's known for his journalistic careers of decades, was silenced because he tried to unearth this corruption and this unethical practice of Lobbyism that journalists were enrolled in. Yeah, yeah. No, it's sad.
01:10:56
Speaker
Moving on to more, now we are sitting in 2020, COVID has happened and I keep hearing that now it's time for public journalism. Everybody is a reporter, everybody's got a smartphone and it's not anymore a journalist job to be a journalist. What's your take on it? That's right. I think things are changing. As I said, you know, media is also evolving. Technology has been changing drastically.
01:11:27
Speaker
I remember, I don't know if I will, I remember the website, but I remember in the early days when awkward used to be there and there was no Facebook or, you know, Twitter, there used to be a particular website, I think Mary something, and that used to invite people for public journalism. So anybody could log in and, you know, write articles or upload their videos, et cetera.
01:11:56
Speaker
at that time and I at that time was very furious because I said that you know I'm a journalist or I want to become a journalist then why are they you know asking anybody to upload these videos as a journalist but when time changed people evolved media evolved and technology also evolved now you rightly said that everybody has the power to you know express themselves
01:12:21
Speaker
expose anything wrong that's happening in the society, etc., against the government, against the administration, against the politicians or the bureaucrats, etc. And that's been happening. There's more transparency because of social media. There's more transparency because of public activism or public journalism, as you call it. So I think this is good. This is fair. But if I see this in context of social media as well, particularly Twitter and Facebook,
01:12:49
Speaker
There's a lot of negative side as well. There's a lot of abuse. There's a lot of propaganda. And there are a lot of bots in this entire exercise. So I think while social media has been great for all of us,
01:13:05
Speaker
has been wonderful for all of us, but there is a negative side to it where Twitter and Facebook have failed to in fact bring in this kind of a public policy where they can in fact reduce such kind of hate content and reduce it drastically. So those kinds of features, although now they say that they're trying to bring in those features, often we see Trump's tweet being blocked, but I think that's not it. There's a lot of hate content.
01:13:32
Speaker
violent contact etc that goes on on Twitter and Facebook and things need to be done and No, I remember I think one and a half years ago. I started on falling anybody on Twitter who was politically driven because then and if if you are following them and then your tweet wall is always about Retweets of one side of the story only right and then
01:14:03
Speaker
and because you are on Twitter all the time, then your opinion becomes so one-sided, right? Because if you're following somebody who's say a Bhat, right? And then he would be retweeting everybody who's for that. And then you think, oh, this is the general sense of the market, right? Everybody's talking only about this, which is not true, because you have actually not looking at the other tweets, which are not on your wall.
01:14:32
Speaker
And it's so biased. Absolutely. I agree with you. I mean, as an individual, as you said, you started unfollowing. If I give you an example, not just Twitter in my real life. You know, initial days when I was just new to television, I was asked to cover everything. So I used to cover BJP. I used to cover Congress. I used to cover later. When our body was formed, I used to cover them. So
01:15:00
Speaker
I somehow became very bitter with the political reportage. And a few years I decided, I think it was somewhere in 2014 or 15, that I can't cover politics because the kind of discourse that we had reduced this into, the kind of the retweet matches or the abuse contests on tweets on Facebook, et cetera, had happened. I decided to move away completely from political reportage.
01:15:29
Speaker
So even now, when I try to, if I interview politicians, it's mostly not on the political context. It's mostly on internal affairs, et cetera, et cetera. And you're right. I have myself tried to reduce, uh, you know, political, you know, covering, you know, following political, uh, you know, handles as much as possible, but unfortunately as a journalist, I have to keep a track of things. So.
01:15:54
Speaker
I can't follow it completely on Twitter but you know such is life and you know I just wanted to touch another aspect and that aspect has been even though we have a free media in India look at what's been happening in China the kind of propaganda wars that's been happening etc and they use
01:16:16
Speaker
media as a propaganda tool, as an information warfare. And if I see this from the Indian government perspective, I think Indian government to a great extent has failed in messaging. Now, I won't encourage the government as a journalist to buy media or buy media silence or encourage media to tweet or report everything in government's favor. But I think we need to learn as well as unlearn.
01:16:46
Speaker
a lot from what China has been doing in respect to propaganda, because obviously we know there's no free media in China. All the media organizations report to the Communist regime. There are categorization of media organization, and the Chinese military and the Chinese Communist regime track everything that they do. And there's a dictat that's given. There's a line that has to be taken every time. We are comparatively a free media.
01:17:12
Speaker
But still, overall messaging, I feel the government has failed to a great extent. There's no communication strategy that the government really has. As somebody who covers strategic affairs very closely, internal affairs very closely, I saw this happening after the Balakot attack that happened. I saw this happening also after Article 370 and 35 were abrogated. I'm sorry, I went a little technical.
01:17:37
Speaker
It is a little problematic and we will suffer more if the government's messaging strategy is not. So tell me one more thing. Now, since now for three decades, we have been on an advertising based revenue model for media. And clearly that's not working for print now.
01:18:02
Speaker
And I have seen a couple of, I think a lot of new digital-age startups have started some subscription-based, you know, new service, paper, article, and a freemium model kind of thing.
01:18:20
Speaker
Do you think that would work and we will shift to paid news versus free news with advertisement? Will that work? It's very difficult, but it has to work eventually because once that is the model that is followed by one and all, eventually it will become a reality. In the Indian market context, I think, as I said, the media is still evolving. There's a lot of churning happening.
01:18:48
Speaker
So you'll have to see iFreelance as a contributing editor with an organization called Airshot. So Airshot came up with a new concept in India on the models of the NPR in US, the National Public Radio. They did not come out with a radio station yet, but they have come out with a website and an app which is completely audio-driven news and audio-driven content, which is still something that the Indians are not ready for.
01:19:17
Speaker
But I think they are trying to develop a revenue model around it. They have deals with organizations like Spotify and other such media organizations. And I see a lot of journalists, particularly in COVID, who are turning to podcasts.
01:19:32
Speaker
who are turning to such out-of-the-box initiatives. And I think these are here to stay. Although, as I said, the Indian market is still not ready to accommodate this. We are still, as you said, you love your morning newspaper still. There are still many people who do that. Still people enjoy the bickering and the fighting matches that happen on prime time.
01:19:56
Speaker
So I think the Indian audience and the Indian media both will take time to eventually be progressive, be accommodative, be understanding, evolve. But it will take time. What will also happen is that the kind of television channels that we see today will completely turn digital. I think that just like OTT platforms,
01:20:19
Speaker
We'll have digital televisions. I know one for sure, which is happening, I think early part of next year. An English channel that is coming up will be launched next year, which will be completely digital. It will work like a news channel completely, but it will not be available on television. It will only be available on 24 seven on the digital medium.
01:20:42
Speaker
So I think things are evolving, things are changing, revenue models are changing, and people are getting, you know, decreasing revenue. Channels like ArtStuck, even Republic for that matter, that are, that have been pooping.
01:20:57
Speaker
because of the kind of revenue that has come. I think in the COVID months, in the COVID this particular year, a lot has changed. And I think they will recalibrate their positions. Unfortunately, a lot of journalists have been fired. A lot of media organizations are shutting down. Only today I came to know that Huffington Post India has shut down. And today was their last day. So I think on a global scale, things are changing.
01:21:25
Speaker
But digital, I think, has arrived, is here to stay. Just like we saw a transition from Oracle to Facebook to Twitter, I think on the news medium as well, a lot is going to change in the coming months and years. So my last point was on the recent thing which happened with the Anab and the Maharashtra government, right?
01:21:48
Speaker
What I have used is, is politics going to, you know, and I'm not saying Arnab is wrong or right in any way, or I'm not defending him. But the fact is that it's a politically motivated decision to get him there, whatever that was done. Now, that means that a journalist, if a powerful journalist like Arnab
01:22:15
Speaker
can be taken up by a state government, then nobody in India is safe. Exactly. I echo your views, Nakul, because, you know, I've been a journalist for more than a decade now and a TV journalist for seven years. So I have seen, you know, this kind of threats and intimidation that happened from politicians, particularly. I've faced this defamation from
01:22:41
Speaker
political parties, both the Congress and the BJP, and from the PDP in Jammu and Kashmir. So I know how these theatrics really work. But unfortunately, again, not going into the merits, whether Arnab's journalism is right or wrong, whether we agree with his ideology or the way he does things,
01:22:59
Speaker
But what the government in Maharashtra did was absolutely wrong. I think this was a political vendetta. I think this conveys a very wrong message and a wrong signal. Unfortunately, because of the divided media, we didn't see many channels or editors or journalist bodies really coming out in favor of Arnaud.
01:23:19
Speaker
Again, I don't think that Adnab also felt that anybody would support him. I think that only makes him stronger because he's different and he tries to appear different and alone in the battle.
01:23:32
Speaker
But I think he will and is emerging only more stronger because of the kind of political vendetta and for a week he was imprisoned. So the politicians thought that they will convey a message to Arnab because for many years the Congress party has been very upset particularly after Rahul Gandhi's interview with Arnab that turned into a disaster. And later years also many corruption scandals and particularly after BJP came to power, Arnab again tried to focus only on the Congress party and the UPA.
01:24:02
Speaker
I think they were upset, they were furious and they decided to do this as a response, as a collective response of the three political parties that are in power in Maharashtra. But I think this was absolutely wrong. What happened with Arnab could happen with me or anybody else from any other ideology. And I think that collectively journalists should have spoken out against it. And for that matter, if this happens tomorrow with any other journalist.
01:24:29
Speaker
I mean, you as a political party or a government feel uncomfortable with the way an editor or a journalist is speaking out or reacting? Well, hello. I mean, journalists are meant to make you uncomfortable, meant to shake you. But I think it sent a very wrong precedent. And I think these political parties are going to regret this. No, no. So my actually, my problem is not
01:24:58
Speaker
with them doing it. My problem is now, will it give an open invitation for a BGP to do it in their state government? I think so. Which will only go first, right? And not for them, for the common person who's saying if a powerful person like Anap can go to a
01:25:20
Speaker
go to jail on fictitious charges, then nobody's safe. See, that is why I said that this is a political vendetta. And this is an exercise to convey a message. So they felt that they will convey this message. And ultimately, you know, if you see Nakul, if you observe this particular instance, this is basically a battle between BJP and the Shiv Sena Congress in NCP. This is a battle between central government and the Maharashtra government.
01:25:48
Speaker
And in the process, I think that is why I said they have set a wrong precedent because this precedent will now motivate other governments, be it BJP, be it other regional political parties or etc, who will come out not just against journalists and shoot the messenger, but they will also come out against the common people. I mean, this has been happening before as well.
01:26:10
Speaker
But now it will gain prominence every time somebody on the social media or on television or elsewhere will speak out against a particular politician. Immediately there will be a reaction to it and especially if that politician is in power. So I think this is wrong. This was absolutely unnecessary exercise and unfortunately we will see consequences of this continuing in months and years.
01:26:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's going to be tough living in India. Well, for example, my opinion on Indian police is anyways, like if I have to give them rating, I'll give them one out of 10 or minus one if I can. Right. Because they are unfair. Yeah. They don't listen to any and I have had my enough interaction with them because of the kind of business I am.
01:27:09
Speaker
I deal with second-hand phones. So there could be stolen phones. There could be just that. And I've dealt with them. And what motivates them? I don't know. Their motivation is to trouble citizens. They know who's right. They know who's wrong. But they know this person can be troubled. So let me trouble them.
01:27:37
Speaker
True. I think I tend to agree with you, although I would say that all the entire police force is... No, you can never generalize. You can never generalize. But I think I feel what you are saying.
Police and Bureaucracy Issues
01:27:53
Speaker
This also stems from the fact, Naqul, that the police force in India, or for that matter, any organization or bureaucracy, there is a lack of professionalism in other organizations, in other fields also.
01:28:07
Speaker
If there is a lack of professionalism and there is this machoism that is within you, then there are problems that happen. That is why a common person like you or me or anybody else tends to feel uncomfortable. There are these small instances when an accident happens. People fear taking help or help the people who undergo an accident.
01:28:34
Speaker
You know, police is going to harass them. Police is going to do this. Police is going to do that. We don't file FIRs. We don't file complaints because we know that either nothing will happen or the police would be lackadaisical and they will do nothing. So I think you would write that, you know, there is an overall, you know,
01:28:53
Speaker
a shakeup that is required. There is a lot of churning that is required, not just within the police force, but all across the bureaucracy, all across these things, because they need to be professional. They are public servants. And if the public is unhappy, if the people are not being cared about,
01:29:15
Speaker
Then I think the problem begins. So I think there are massive reforms that are required in the police force. And I think to begin with, with the laws also, because there are many British laws that are still existent. I am so in sync with you. The, the police force needs such a massive overall, right? In terms of law, in terms of training, in terms of even their salaries, right? They need to be paid more.
01:29:47
Speaker
they just so yeah I had so many experiences now I know so much law because I had to read so much and even with all that knowledge with me it's hey do do I want to waste time with those guys arguing for three four hours because they don't have logic they will keep creating new sections
01:30:16
Speaker
And even if I have replies to this section, they will create new things, which will not make sense in the court of law. But, you know, they have all the time in the world. And you don't. Just a technique to harass. This is a harassment technique. This is a fit case of harassment that happens very frequently in India. I mean, we know how
01:30:40
Speaker
Even people who are connected and powerful utilize police force against the common people. How the police force, unfortunately, argues to intimidate and threaten and such tactics have been used, unfortunately, time and again. And there's no transparency. I mean, if you speak up against a police officer against corruption or for that matter, some favourism that has been happening in 98 of 100 cases, you will see no action being taken.
Final Thoughts and Sign-off
01:31:15
Speaker
Aditya, this was so amazing. I just had a great time talking with you and thanks a lot for spending so much time with us, you know. And I just, I got to learn so much about the media industry and journalism and your journey is so amazing. And I'm looking forward to, you know, keep listening to you and hearing about you and
01:31:37
Speaker
you know, doing great things and best of luck to you, man. Thank you so much, Naku. It was an honor, really, because, you know, although you interviewed me, I hope I get an opportunity to interview you as well, because you've been creating waves for the last several years as well. And I'm glad that we connected and we got to speak on upgrade to Naku. Thank you. So guys, upgrade work here.
01:32:08
Speaker
and we are listening to Update with Knuckles, a production of the 14.8. Don't forget to like and subscribe.