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Upgrade with Dhruv Nath with his take on MBA, Book writing & Angel Investment.
406 Plays3 years ago
This week host Nakul is in conversation with the multifaceted Dhruv Nath. Dhruv through the course of his career has worn many hats - from being a corporate leader, to being a professor at MDI Gurgaon, an angel investor and also an author!
Tune in as Dhruv gets candid about his journey as well as decodes the frequently debated question “To MBA or Not to MBA”, shares more on his experience of book writing & offers valuable insights for new angel investors.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Upgrade with Naakon'
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello guys, welcome to upgrade with Naakon. The point of the show is, we meet interesting people, they give us their productivity hacks, the technologies they use.
Meet Professor Dhruv
00:00:26
Speaker
Hi friends, welcome to another interesting episode of A bread with knuckle and I have my old professor from M.D.I where I did my M.D.I with me. So he is not old, he is a young professor. Okay, a very young professor who is a writer, he has written four books, was a professor with M.D.I and also an angel investor. So this is going to be a very interesting guide. Welcome, Professor
Impact of COVID-19 on Education
00:00:55
Speaker
Bro.
00:00:55
Speaker
Thanks, Nakul. It's always great fun to be with you. I have learned a lot from you and I am sure during this one hour, one and a half hours, I learned even more from you. Thanks so much. So, you being a teacher and an educator, how is COVID treated you? Madlab, I know you are a professor at M.D.I. and M.D.I. session. Mr. Marjmed, what is your name?
00:01:22
Speaker
I think mid-March everything collapsed and Huskibat said it was all online. But MDI is an in-campus program. So how did you deal with students? They must be staying in hostels. So actually what happened in MDI was that
00:01:45
Speaker
I think the campus was then closed for students. All the students were given, I think, 2 days notice and they were told of Garjao and see the semester had not ended. Normally, we have to end the semester.
00:02:02
Speaker
but it hadn't ended. So all the students, you know, whatever classes were not held, we just cancelled and they went away. Uski bhad say any new terms, which is April onwards, everything was held online. So that's how MDI handled it and till today, it remains online entirely online.
00:02:26
Speaker
Okay.
Teaching IT Management Online: Challenges and Adaptations
00:02:27
Speaker
And how, how was that experience for you? I don't know if you, before that, have you taken classes online ever? So as I have, uh, so I will give you two, three parts to the answer. Uh, I have not taken online classes before that. In fact, I used to think they were, uh, they would not be effective, but I have found them surprisingly effective. Uh, so in fact, not only classes,
00:02:55
Speaker
But I have been taking a very large number of webinars of different kinds. And I find they're fairly interactive. We are able to talk to each other. We are able to understand what we are doing. So I don't really see too much of a problem. I'll tell you where the problem is. You know, a lot of my classes used to be, see, you have never attended many classes. But many of my classes used to be, say, games.
00:03:25
Speaker
So I would in the winter, I would take students out into the sun and I would form groups and I would. So my background is I.T. So I used to teach any courses in I.T. I.T. management and so on.
00:03:48
Speaker
But when you teach IT, it is not just IT, it is how to manage IT, it is how to strategize for IT, it is how to deal with customers using IT. So I used to get students to
00:03:58
Speaker
do role plays. I used to get them to play games. Very often, you know, we used to be, we have an open-air canteen at MDI called Sarmajis, which you know. So very often I used to take students there and we used to hold classes of the smaller group over there. That is something I miss.
00:04:20
Speaker
Also, the other thing I miss is that not only students, but also alumni. So, you know, I used to spend a lot of time with alumni. Even students, we used to spend time post classes. We used to discuss and learn from each other.
Professor Dhruv's Career Journey
00:04:40
Speaker
So I think it's become a lot more formal now.
00:04:44
Speaker
because we are online. But personally, I don't think effectiveness has gone down. I don't think so. In fact, one huge benefit is I used to travel, you know, one hour each way. One hour going to M.D.I. from home, one hour coming back. That has stopped. So I've saved a lot of time. But I think it used to be a lot more fun when you could, you know, actually spend time and meet students face to face. A lot more fun.
00:05:09
Speaker
So I am very curious to know how did you end up becoming a professor? What was the journey? Okay, so it's a slightly long journey. So I passed out of IIT Delhi.
00:05:32
Speaker
When I did my BTEC, I was very clear. See, my parents have always been slightly academically inclined. My father was in service. My mother was a teacher in school. So I have always had that kind of inclination. So many of them had a PhD, again, from IIT Delhi. And I thought I was a professor, because
00:06:00
Speaker
And that is what I wanted to do. I wasn't really looking for money. Then suddenly I realized, can I have a salary? So then I... PhD? Computer Science. I take Electrical Engineering, PhD Computer Science. So then when I was about to finish my PhD in Computer Science, suddenly I realized, because the professor's salary is very, very low.
00:06:30
Speaker
And I realized, in practice, I would have to manage a family, I would probably at some stage have kids, have a wife, I would have to manage kids. So, then I decided to get into industry. So, I have been in industry for almost 20 years.
00:06:49
Speaker
But towards the end, I realized, boss, if you meet those business targets, wonderful, they double next year. If you don't meet them, your boss fires you. What the hell is this? The other thing which happened, very interesting, is I realized as a manager, because I was a manager, I was leading very large teams, teams of 200, 300 people.
00:07:18
Speaker
So I realized that I was basically becoming an administrator. And the fun, the, you know, dirtying of hands, the actual real work was done by people three, four levels below me. So I said, it doesn't make sense. These guys are having all the fun. This is enough.
00:07:47
Speaker
So that is where I decided, man, I'll get back into academics. So, you know, that was another interesting step. It took me a long time to convince my wife. It took me an even longer time to convince my in-laws. And what, what, what the kind of organizations you were working with? Oh, I worked with only one company. I don't change jobs. So I worked with NIT, NIT limited.
00:08:12
Speaker
where a lot of my work was consultancy, a lot of my work was managing the education department, but mostly it was management and man management and sales. So, B.V. could convince Karna about Mushkil Tha, but finally, Karpaya. But if you say that Mushkil Tha, in-laws could convince Karna, because in-laws do not have any reaction to the reaction.
00:08:43
Speaker
So I became a professor actually to enjoy myself.
00:08:52
Speaker
I was not looking for money, obviously anybody who looks for money will not become a professor. So I wanted to teach, I wanted to spend time with youngsters, I wanted to keep learning, I wanted to write books and I wanted to do, basically I wanted to get
00:09:10
Speaker
get back into doing things on my own rather than just managing other people who do those things. So that's why I became a prof and absolutely no regrets. I think at some point of time you realize that you want to just live life.
00:09:34
Speaker
You know, today, I think many, many, many people in their late 30s or mid 40s or early 40s, they've decided they are both okay. Now we want to live life. And I actually moved into as a professor in my mid 40s. The other important thing which I've realized very, very, it's very, very important is, you know, you should not at the age of 70 or the age of 80, look back and say, yeah, regret, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:02
Speaker
who is staying to Karini Saktiyo. So, therefore, I think it's very important for anybody to decide what he wants to do in life and make sure he does. Of course, B.V. has to agree. Very important. So, his wife has to agree to everything for you to live a very happy life. And by the way, I have now retired from M.D.I. I retired on 30th November. So, that's approximately.
00:10:31
Speaker
Wow, so this is maybe like a retirement backtrack story. The interesting thing now is I am far, far, far more busy than I used to be during my MDI days because I have not see I've retired from MDI. But I have, you know, I'm an angel investor and I have spent a lot of time with lead angels. So I'm actually a director at lead angels and a shareholder.
00:11:01
Speaker
I have joined them as an advisor and I'm spending a hell of a lot of time with lead angels, with people, mentoring them and taking
Is an MBA Really Worth It?
00:11:11
Speaker
lots and lots of webinars. I keep learning and I'm a hell of a lot more busy than I used to be, but I'm my own boss. So it's great fun.
00:11:25
Speaker
So, if you enjoy what you are doing, then that's where it starts. There is no age to it. So, let me tell you, I enjoyed all three phases of my career. My first phase was industry, 19 years, but at the end I said,
00:11:43
Speaker
Second phase was MDI and I spent, I think, about 19 years there. Again, bahat mazahaya. And the age of phase, where I am with Lead Angel, then I am spending a lot of time with start-ups, or bhi mazahaya. So, all three phases have been great fun. So, let me get more insights from your second phase. I am an MBA from MDI.
00:12:06
Speaker
I have my own views on MBA. But now because you have stepped out of those shoes, I would want to know, does it make sense to do an MBA?
00:12:20
Speaker
I would say yes. I would say yes. However, I would also qualify it. It depends on what you want to do in life. So if you want to get into a field of say marketing, if you want to get into finance, if you want to get into HR, it is very useful for two reasons.
00:12:40
Speaker
Reason number one is obviously there are a lot of inputs you get. So if you're into marketing, you will get all kinds of inputs on marketing. If you're into finance, you will get inputs on behavioral finance. You'll get inputs on corporate finance, etc, etc, etc. So you get inputs admittedly.
00:13:03
Speaker
B, I think the other big thing, very, very good thing, but I would only say this is true of the good institutes. So, good institutes like MDI, like the IMs, like XLRI is that
00:13:17
Speaker
You go through those two years doing lots and lots and lots of projects under high pressure, right? So you will get a project, you will get assignments, you'll do live projects, you'll do internships, mostly under high pressure, under tight deadlines.
00:13:34
Speaker
And you learn to become independent. You learn to think independently. You learn to face problems. Nobody tells you what the hell the solution is. And that is how you learn. So I think the biggest part is not just the inputs you get, but the fact that you are thinking.
00:14:10
Speaker
I think the third important thing, the third good thing is that you spend in the good institutes, you spend a lot of time with very smart classmates. And therefore you learn from each other. And obviously, as you go through life, not only do you learn from each other, you build a tremendous network of friends and contacts, and those will last you a lifetime. So I think many of these things are very, very positive. However, I will also give you a couple of negatives.
00:14:15
Speaker
And you're solving these problems, you're tackling these situations on a crisis basis, on a war footing, you don't have time, you're not told,
00:14:41
Speaker
See, there are a lot of people, a lot of students who are inherently not cut out for careers of this kind. You know, careers in finance, careers in marketing, careers in general management. There are a lot of students who are very, very bright, very good programmers, but
00:14:58
Speaker
you know the world says the problem is in an attempt to match what the world is doing in an attempt to get a higher salary
00:15:15
Speaker
people get into something which they are not suited for. So I have seen very bright tech guys, very bright programmers. They would make excellent designers getting into the wrong field and getting stuck in, you know, something like marketing or finance or HR operations or whatever. I think that's bad. That's very wrong. So I think before getting into an MBA, you have to very clearly decide what your direction in life is.
00:15:39
Speaker
And if the direction requires you to do an MBA, by all means do it. It's a very good thing to do. But if it does not, please don't get into the wrong career. Every person has to decide what he wants to do in life and only then you decide how do you reach where you want to reach. That is very wrong.
00:16:02
Speaker
For example, if I take my case, I did my engineering, or I wanted to do an MBA because I wanted to do a lot of coding. Actually, I wanted to do a lot of testing, code validation.
00:16:25
Speaker
I really sucked in engineering. So, I was very sure that I could change the line.
00:16:40
Speaker
But a lot of my peers were treating it as a placement agency, not as an education institute, which was very demotivating for me. So India in general, India is super competitive cutthroat. Even those two years are very cutthroat. They are not like engineering.
00:17:09
Speaker
Engineering is a lifestyle where we are not competing with each other. MBA is who will get the highest paid job. Even if I don't know if that job is right for me, which is obviously a maturity thing. 35-40 years ago, I realised that I had a job and I had a better job.
00:17:38
Speaker
But if I am a batch of 300, there will only be about 10 people who would think like that. 290 will be thing. Let's figure that out. So, and the other thing which I regret personally, I started my own thing. I had to relearn everything I learned in MBA.
00:18:04
Speaker
because I did not have any work. I could not really grasp it at that time or have a greater understanding. It was all theoretical for me.
00:18:27
Speaker
So, there were only few subjects which I really got deep into because the professor made it super interesting. I had a blast in his class.
00:18:56
Speaker
When you are in class, you market yourself so well. But when you are on paper, my expectation is so high from you and you underperform because you have to return to your job. My overall marketing is such a big lesson for me. He first exam, he gave me a zero.
00:19:24
Speaker
or half a mark out of 10, would you? And I said, you can't give me half. You can't give me half. So, marketing 101.
00:19:50
Speaker
And this was a personal one-on-one discussion after the class, because he and me had a very good kind of teacher-student relationship because I used to interact so much in class with him and in case studies and discussions. So I always thought, I am good at this.
00:20:17
Speaker
And when I got a half mark out of 10, I realized that I had no choice.
00:20:24
Speaker
So, those were some very interesting classes which I was able to get more out of but there is a finance. Because I was like, why would I use accounting? By the way, I used everything.
00:20:50
Speaker
At that time, I went to internet, Wikipedia, case studies, and I had to relearn everything because it was very hard. So, merely MBA, primarily is network. So, MBA network is super strong and has been a very big part of my career so far.
00:21:15
Speaker
If I need to talk to anybody, any company, any industry, I would have that person available from just 2-3 calls or whatever. But you know, the one reason for that also is that MDI is a very good institute. That is why they are in good positions and good companies. Yeah, of course, of course. But because also it's treated as a placement agency, right?
00:21:37
Speaker
So I have two questions. When you are teaching these kids, do you get that sense key? All of them are treating this as a stepping stone for just a better career or are here to learn. That's part one. And part two is especially on freshers versus work aches. May the time pay, it was almost 70 pressures and 30 work aches. I don't know how it has changed now.
00:22:07
Speaker
But do you think that matters? Okay. So, firstly, the first question and I will give you my frank opinion. You said be frank, so I will give you my frank opinion.
The Role of Faculty in Student Engagement
00:22:27
Speaker
A lot of students would come there purely because they had to get 70% attendance. And I'm not talking of only my class. I'm talking of classes in general, both as a student. Because now attendance is not low.
00:22:43
Speaker
You will get a great doc or you will not be allowed to sit for the exam or whatever. So they have to come. There's no choice. So they're not really interested in learning. That happens. Yes, that happens. And that's common. But in my opinion, a lot of that is not the student's fault. I think it's a fault of the faculty.
00:23:21
Speaker
If he feels he's getting nothing out of your class, then there's something wrong with your class. If he feels he's getting something, then he will come irrespective of whether he gets attendance or not. So, I think a large part of the blame is with the faculty, a large part of the blame. And I think one reason, and again I'll be frank,
00:23:36
Speaker
In fact, you know, in many of our faculty meetings, we raise this issue and I've always said this.
00:23:41
Speaker
is a lot of the faculty have zero experience. They basically only teach from books. So there are faculty members, like you mentioned Chandwani, you mentioned, there are other people also at MDA, who have experience, either they worked in industry, or they have been consultants, and therefore, they are actually coming to you live. Now, how do you solve it? Rather than,
00:24:10
Speaker
I think that is one fundamental difference. Unfortunately, see in an engineering college, you can pick up from a textbook and teach. There is no problem. But in management, you have to teach from experience. There is no option. So I think that is one fundamental problem where it is the faculty's fault. Number one. Number two.
00:24:33
Speaker
Yes, even after this, even if the faculty is interesting, there will be some guys who are not interested. But I think there are enough students. There are enough students who will come and they would want to learn. They would actually participate. In fact,
00:24:50
Speaker
Very often in my classes, I would normally have one session. So let's say in a class of 10 sessions, I would have one session where I would not take attendance. I would say, boss, there you find out who the really interested guys are. So I would say there are some who are interested, there are some who are not.
00:25:16
Speaker
However, I also want to say one more thing. And again, I'll say it very frankly. See, we have taught executive MBA students, which is the one-year NMP and the three-year part-time evening course. And we have also taught the full-time course, which is the two-year program. We have found that the level of seriousness in learning
00:25:40
Speaker
in the executive MBA program is much, much higher, much, much higher than in the full-time PGP program. And one statement which I am very fond of using, and I'm sure your audience will not like it, but I will say it. You know, the executive MBA,
00:26:01
Speaker
So let's take the one-year guys. They have taken a break from service. They have taken a break. They have families. They have a wife. They have a husband. They have kids. They can't afford to take a break, but they've taken a break to further their career. They are very desperate to learn. Many of them are sales guys.
00:26:29
Speaker
working very, very hard, long hours. At the end, they come, they're fat, they're tired. The reason why they come is they want to learn, they want to further their career. But a lot of them, a lot of them, you're absolutely right, they basically come there. They basically come there. They basically come there. They basically come there. They basically come there. They basically come there. They basically come there.
00:26:51
Speaker
Unfortunately, that is the attitude of many of them, not all of them, many of them. But fortunately, there are still many of them who are very keen to learn. In fact, I would say a lot of them used to keep coming to me and say, look, sir, you are involved in so many startups. See, I'm an angel investor. So you're involved in so many startups. Can you get us live projects in those startups you want to learn?
00:27:13
Speaker
to class, but live project is very good because they find it is very good learning. So I think it's a mixture. There are some guys, some students who are key. There are some guys who the day they get admission into MDI or IAM or one of these places, they basically retire. They say to get a job, so yes, that happens.
00:27:38
Speaker
So, I would say in the PGP classes, you know, the regular MBA classes, actually the WorkEx was not really relevant.
Qualifications vs. Performance: What Matters More?
00:27:48
Speaker
So, I would say it's about 60-40. So, 60% would be people with WorkEx, but almost all of them, I would say 90% of them have coming from a programming, coding, testing background.
00:28:02
Speaker
So there is no, you know, you've never handled people. You've never been in sales. You've never been in customer contact. You've just been writing code or you've been testing. So I would not call that.
00:28:15
Speaker
Relevant WorkEx, I would not call that WorkEx, which helps in an MBA. So I would say, personally, if you look at these guys, they are all effectively freshers from our point of view. If you look at the executive MBA guys, those are guys with WorkEx. But again, I would say the fact that they have WorkEx, I don't think helps. I think what helps is the basic intelligence, basic curiosity,
00:28:44
Speaker
Basic need to participate, basic need to learn. Whether you're a fresher, whether you're a guy with work aches, ultimately, it doesn't matter. What matters is, that is what matters.
00:29:02
Speaker
Okay, this is very interesting and I think especially for somebody who is planning to get into an MBA, PR, what is the right objective of doing an MBA? For example, merry organization. There are a lot of grads, right, who are at manager positions and we discuss and they say PRs are MBA. And I say, and I always question them, who is an MBA?
00:29:29
Speaker
you are already at a role which ideally an MBA should be doing it. You are kicking ass. What will you gain out of an MBA which will help you enhance your career? No, no, I will tell you. I'll give you a couple of answers to that. Once you join a job, so firstly, when joining a job, your
00:29:53
Speaker
getting the job itself depends on your past. So yes, an MBA will definitely have a higher chance of getting a job or a better salary and a better position in a good company compared to a pure graduate. I accept that. Once you're in, if it is in a company, so let me let me separate out most companies, they will
00:30:19
Speaker
reward you, reward matlab, growth, responsibilities, money, everything will be dependent on your performance, not on your qualification, right? Because your qualifications have given you an entry. That's it. Uski baad abki qualification khatam. You will learn on the job and you will progress. I have seen a lot of people. In fact, personally, you asked me, my N I T Mehta. And I remember there were four guys who joined our organization in one particular year.
00:30:49
Speaker
in my team. One from I am Ahmedabad, one from I am Bangalore, one from I am Calcutta. And the fourth guy was some, I think engineer from some vague engineering college. At the end of six months, these were management trainees, so that category. At the end of six months, I had to sack the I am Ahmedabad guy, the I am Bangalore guy, the I am Cal guy, because they were not performing. And the fourth guy was doing brilliantly. So, in a job,
00:31:16
Speaker
Yes, it doesn't matter what your past qualification is, but there are some organizations which are very MBA, what is the right word, friendly, MBA driven. That is one part. I'll tell you where the problem comes in. See, if you are in a job, no issues, you will learn on the job.
00:31:40
Speaker
If you change your job, you can resume as a placement consultant. Placement consultant can resume as a company.
00:31:51
Speaker
He is no way to figure out which is a good guy, which is a bad guy. So, what the HR does is MDA, MBA, OMDI, wonderful. IIT, wonderful. Oh, average call it choro, choro, choro. They just get weeded out. So, when changing a job, a great qualification helps and that is one huge. So, I would say every time you want to take up a job,
00:32:18
Speaker
whether it's your first job or your second job or your third job, that is where this helps. But at a senior enough level, there it doesn't really matter. Ultimately, it is your performance that matters.
The Future of Education: Online vs. Offline
00:32:32
Speaker
And to my listeners, as a her company manager, I have a run rate of doing at least one interview per day. We have loads of open position and I
00:32:46
Speaker
Rarely go to the education section. I don't even reach there. No, but Nakuul, you are doing it personally. And it is not only, it is not just the HR manager, it is some junior person in HR. Why should I consider the others? That is the problem. So, for example, may first be shortlets.
00:33:16
Speaker
I don't know. Let me check with my HR as well. Do you want to call it a shortlisting? Yes, I have never mentioned that. But yeah, that's a good point. Let me check. Very interesting. Do you have a shortlisting level and then what are they looking at?
00:33:41
Speaker
For example, I look at what is the experience they have and is that experience relevant to how they can contribute to my organization.
00:33:52
Speaker
And will this person get a learning opportunity in my organization also? And can I learn from them? So it has to work both ways. If it doesn't work both ways, it will never work out. Wonderful. I'll just add one thing to that, Nikul. I agree 100% with you. I have also done a huge amount of recruitment when I was in the industry. The one thing that we look at over and above all this is we want hungry people.
00:34:22
Speaker
We want people who are hungry to do something, to perform, to achieve something. We don't mind you leaving at five. That's not a problem. But do you, you know, a guy who's come to prove something in life. And incidentally, one very interesting thing I found is under qualified people are usually more hungry than the qualified people.
00:34:52
Speaker
because they want to prove something. I think the more the grounded is person, the more they want to say here, it doesn't matter where I come from. Very cool. You know, I'll give you an example. His father used to run a Chhotisikirana shop. Chhotisikirana shop. But he was so desperate to prove himself.
00:35:21
Speaker
Oh, he was a star performer. And I found a lot of people like this. So I look for guys like this. It is not easy to find them. Your HR will not be able to shortlist these guys. You have to do it personally. But if you find these jewels, they will really do a great job.
00:35:44
Speaker
Coming back to Covid, now that the classes have gone online, do you think they are going to come back offline as rigorously as it was earlier, when this whole Covid thing is over, there is no, or do you think there is going to be a mix match?
00:36:07
Speaker
The existing courses will continue the way they are, the way they were before Covid.
00:36:19
Speaker
What a simple reason because like I kept telling you the interactivity, personal face-to-face interactivity between faculty and student, between student and student, because I think that maximum learning is peer-to-peer. I think that will definitely happen. But what will also happen is there will be a parallel stream of programs coming up. I'm not saying there will be MBA programs, there could be any programs.
00:36:44
Speaker
where either it will be a mix and match or it may even be pure online because people have realized it can be online. So, I think this is the biggest advantage of online. Huge advantage that online has is
00:37:02
Speaker
So, you know, when I used to call in guest faculty, it had to be guys who were based in Gurgaon or at the most Delhi. Now I can get in anybody from anywhere. But conventional programs will probably continue because of the level of interactivity that you can face to face.
00:37:27
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Both sides on the table will get more comfortable with the online version. That's right. Plus here, remember one more thing. One of the biggest benefits of doing an MBA is...
00:37:49
Speaker
No, no, you can't interact. So, I think I would count that as a disadvantage. Guys, exactly. Absolutely. There is this Christian Medical College in Ludhiana and Veloore. CMC is now called Couple Making College.
00:38:15
Speaker
So tell me, what tool do you use for the classes? See, personally, Hamlog, I use Zoom. I just use Zoom. That's all. And I find it quite effective among all the others. I've also tried Google Meets. I've also tried WebEx. But I find Zoom the most easy to use. And that's all I use.
00:38:40
Speaker
Okay. And did you love initially, did you face any technical problem? Absolutely none, none at all. But maybe the reason for that also is that I have a technical background, although I have not been teaching tech for the last many years, I have a tech background and therefore, I didn't have a problem.
00:39:01
Speaker
And as a group of professors, did you discuss here by Hamsab online classes and were there a lot of crustaceans? So I remember in MDI, we had had a series of emails where people used to discuss their experiences, their pluses and minuses.
00:39:25
Speaker
But you know, Dikko was again the same problem. These things are normally discussed face to face.
00:39:33
Speaker
You have to take time out and you have to take time out. You have to take time out and you have to take time out. We used to meet together. These issues were debated there. Lunch we used to have in the dining hall in MDI and many faculty members were there. We used to debate these issues there. That is missed. So, you know, this informal interaction, that is where we would normally have discussed things like this.
00:40:00
Speaker
So, which is why I think even amongst the faculty, the interactivity level has gone down dramatically. That is why I say this level of face-to-face meeting interactivity is very much required.
Professor Dhruv's Passion for Writing
00:40:13
Speaker
So, when we were discussing earlier, you said one of the key reasons you moved from the industry to become a professor was also you wanted to write books. Correct.
00:40:31
Speaker
I know recently you have written this book which also has some amount of cash in it. But I want to understand the motivation, how do you go about writing a book because
00:40:51
Speaker
It's such a hard job to sit down, collect yourself, take time out. For example, my dad. My dad has been going on for the last 10 years that he wants to write a book.
00:41:04
Speaker
And every year he comes up with a new, so sometimes he is writing fiction, sometimes he is writing theoretical papers, sometimes he is writing, but he doesn't move out of love. Never gone beyond 5 pages. It's just a lot of discipline. He knew, say he made a lot of books, he did something like that. And then you write a broader one, then you write a detailed one, then you do editing, blah blah blah.
00:41:33
Speaker
How do you how do you go about what is the process? So, there is no process. So, I must tell you I write a book. I write books. I have written four books so far and I've written a lot of articles also which have on various topics in business. I write books because I find it fun to write.
00:41:56
Speaker
I find it fun to interact with people and I like to keep cracking jokes and you may have seen that whenever I have spoken to you.
00:42:12
Speaker
I find it fun to teach. I find it fun to simplify complex topics. So my classes are normally very simple. In fact, some students have said, sir, it was easy about low level. It's okay. But to sum it up. So I like to do that. I like to explain things and I like communicating whether it is verbal or written.
00:42:39
Speaker
Because I like doing this, I write books. If I did not like doing this, then writing a book would become a job which I have to do. I would not do it. Why the hell would I do it?
00:42:56
Speaker
And I also, therefore, write the kinds of book that I like to write. So, all of them have been the professional kind. So, the current book, which I've written just now, is about funding your startup and other nightmares. So, Penguin has published it.
00:43:14
Speaker
And so it's about how startups can become successful and how they can learn from other startups who are successes and others who are failures. So broadly, that is it. Or who many, you know, I have spent about six, seven years as an angel investor and I have spent enough time in working with startups, mentoring them, investing in them, losing money, making some money.
00:43:40
Speaker
So I've picked up all that and put them into my book. Right? And therefore there is no process. I remember I had a project in Egypt and I was in Cairo. That was
00:44:08
Speaker
Uh, exactly on the Nile, on the Nile River. On the 13th floor of that hotel.
00:44:38
Speaker
books or articles or whatever, it has to be fun. It has to be something you like doing. If it is something you have to force yourself to do. If it is fun to write, it will be fun to read. A lot of people, you know, as professors, so I get guys from Pearson, Prentice Hall, etc, etc.
00:45:05
Speaker
Uh, you know, sir, please, you already written these two, three books, please write a textbook for me. I tell them bluntly, because textbook by definition of boring.
00:45:24
Speaker
So I write books basically because I find it fun. So just to just to add to that, you know, right now I'm writing two books in parallel.
00:45:38
Speaker
And neither of them is on any professional topic.
The World of Angel Investing
00:45:43
Speaker
One of them, see, I am from the hills. I am from Himachal. And I spent a lot of my time, my childhood in Shimla and Solam. So I have, I am writing a book which is almost complete on
00:45:56
Speaker
the funny side of life in a small town in the hills. Then there is one more book I am writing about life in IIT hostels. Again, humorous short stories.
00:46:24
Speaker
I think and if you don't like doing a thing, don't do it. Why the hell are you wasting your life? So I enjoy doing it and I keep doing it. That's why. I think and now I can relate a little bit in same like podcasting for me. A lot of people ask me because it's time consuming and
00:46:51
Speaker
The conversation I have with different people is so mind-bogglingly good and I learn so much. I am not really sure I do it for the audience. I don't really know. I get so much out of it.
00:47:10
Speaker
I really enjoy doing it. For example, if you and me were meeting for coffee, we would have not gone through all these topics, right? We would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have, we would have,
00:47:39
Speaker
Then this gives me an opportunity to also be out of my comfort zone.
00:47:46
Speaker
Why should I only be limited to those topics which I already know? And how do I learn more? So again, it comes from how do you learn more? So boss, I'll just give you, I'll just add one thing to this to what you're saying. I think my total royalty
00:48:13
Speaker
will not be more than in the last 20 years, 70, 80,000. That's all. Although this one, hopefully I should be getting more because this is done very well in the market.
00:48:26
Speaker
I mean, example though, you know in MDI, so there is an MIS course which 240 students take. Every year you are selling 240 copies in MDI. And you can make phenomenal royalty. People make lakhs.
00:48:58
Speaker
It's a great story which I must share with you. He had passed out of MDI some four or five years ago.
00:49:12
Speaker
And he had a copy of my book, so he had read it. So you have this two-tire or three-tire AC, where you have one birth and opposite that there is one more birth, so you have either four or six people sitting.
00:49:29
Speaker
So he says, and my first book was the nuts and bolts of e-commerce. Again, a very funny book, funny book on the basics of e-commerce. So this guy, he sent me an email. He described what happened. He said,
00:49:52
Speaker
Suddenly I realized, I found him reading this book and laughing repeatedly. I mean, this is what I really wanted for people to read it and enjoy it because I enjoy writing it. I don't want to make money. I will not say no.
00:50:14
Speaker
That was not my purpose. So I think it's been great fun and I will continue to write. So like I said, I have already got some of the next three, four books chocked out.
00:50:24
Speaker
I am looking forward to reading that. So, for example, I would love to read life in the hill. Sounds very interesting. Another aspect of book writing I wanted to understand was, I was talking to a writer and he said the true art of writing only comes if you're writing on a typewriter because it's non-destructing and you should not write on a system, on a laptop or a typewriter.
00:50:56
Speaker
I don't agree with him at all. So I have, by the way, I have used a typewriter, which is my typing speed is reasonable, not steno level, but it's reasonable. So I don't agree. But a simple reason, very often you have only vague thoughts. Okay. And you put them down. Then you have the outline of the story, you have the outline of a chapter, outline of what you're going to say. But for final version,
00:51:30
Speaker
Very often I go through two, three rounds of modification. So initially I just put down what I want to say. Sometimes it flows perfectly, sometimes it doesn't. So sometimes I just put down facts. So I think my father gets it. My mother, by the way, is a very prolific writer. She's written about 100 plus books. So they say, my father used to say, the secret of writing is rewriting.
00:51:51
Speaker
Then you look at it again after 10, 15, 20 days.
00:51:58
Speaker
Because when you've written it, you read it and you don't like it, then you know the next version is going to be better. So as long as that keeps happening, you have to keep doing it.
00:52:17
Speaker
So I don't agree with him. It has to be something which has to be rewritten several times. But yes, I do agree with him. It has to be a nice environment. So, you know, if you're sitting in an environment, which is very noisy, you know, Bombay, a local train may have Bhaagraeyo. Vaani, Vaani kya jata. But shanti can be in your room. Shanti can be on the mountain somewhere. Shanti can be, like I told you, on the 13th floor above the Nile.
00:52:45
Speaker
So, about your latest book, it's about part of it is about funding and you have been an angel investor for now a long time. About seven years.
00:52:56
Speaker
How did angel investing came about for you? And then how did this book came about? Okay, so slightly long story. I like spending time with students. Once I came into MDI, students used to come, we used to sit together, you know, open air cafeteria, Sharma GP.
00:53:21
Speaker
And very often these students would come to me and say, sir, I have a lot of ideas. And I would say, I would also learn a lot from my students, by the way. So like you, I've learned a hell of a lot from you. I would sit with them. We would debate. He would have some ideas. I would have some ideas. I would give them some thoughts.
00:53:41
Speaker
Then, some of these guys would actually put it into practice. There were many start-ups. And some of these, many of them were alumni. They would come back. We would sit in campus, or not in campus. They would say, sir, I have a lot of advice for you. I have a lot of advice for you. So, that is where I realized that I am very simple. I invest in the stock market.
00:54:11
Speaker
Now, let's say I buy shares of Reliance Industries or, you know, HDFC Bank or L&T or whatever.
00:54:21
Speaker
There is no way I can sit across the table with Mukesh Ambani and tell him, you are doing a company or you tell me what you are doing, I'll give you advice. Obviously, there is no way. I buy the shares and I blindly accept what he is doing.
Lessons and Criteria in Investment Decisions
00:54:34
Speaker
So, he makes me money. That is a different issue. But my ultimate purpose is not only to make money. So, start up.
00:54:43
Speaker
when I am mentoring students, but even more than that, when I have put in my 5 lakhs or 10 lakhs, then you know, in fact, many people say, what is your exit strategy? I say, I don't want to exit. I don't like to exit. So, they have been forcible.
00:55:08
Speaker
Next, I have a company, so I have no choice. Next, I have a company, so I have no choice. So, whatever, exactly. Cap table has to be, you know, narrowed down. Can't be 20 investors. I want only the founders.
00:55:26
Speaker
Man, I started angel investing. One is, of course, my students started asking me. And two is, I realized, K, I would like to be part of this. So I would like to say, K, you're a merry company. My company is doing well. I'm involved. Of course, I'm not involved in operation, but I'm definitely involved in strategizing and figuring out marketing plans.
00:55:47
Speaker
So, that is how it all started. So, my first investment was with a friend of mine. The company is called Trevon.
00:56:00
Speaker
But that was before I became an angel investor. My first investment as an angel investor was a company called My Cute Office, which is basically now into co-working spaces. A very interesting model because unlike WeWork,
00:56:21
Speaker
They are into co-working spaces, which are optimized. You know, you will not have a huge reception. You will not have a TT table. You will not have a football table. You will not have bean bags. It will be more compact, but enough space. So it's like Oyo rooms of co-working spaces. And before Covid hit us, he was doing very well. And now once Covid is going out,
00:56:49
Speaker
I suspect people will want optimized spaces and therefore this guy will start doing well again. So that was my first investment.
00:56:56
Speaker
And how did he get you as an angel investor? What was the journey? How did he reach out to you? So, he didn't reach out to me. So, what I did was I spoke to some friends and somebody put me in touch with one of his friends who was running this company. He was the founder and the CEO of a company called Lead Angel Network. His name is Sushanto Mitra.
00:57:36
Speaker
And now, of course, I'm also a shareholder. And Sushantumitra, by the way, was
00:57:43
Speaker
is also my co-author in the book, in the book that we've just written. So, I do not invest outside lead angels. I invest, so people come to lead angels, they apply to lead angels for funding and where I'm interested, where I think I can be involved, where I think I can learn.
00:58:01
Speaker
Those are things I invested, not the ones where I think I can make the maximum money because I have a very different kind of angel investor. I would like to make money, but I have a primary purpose.
00:58:15
Speaker
And by the way, my BV, my wife is not happy with this, I must tell you. I've said that very frankly. She says, I can't do anything with this, I can't do anything with it. So, you can't do anything with it. So, tell me one thing. I'm sure the lead agents have that. So, there would be five, six start-ups who would have pitched to you.
00:58:43
Speaker
What made you give money to my cute office and not others? So, so two, three things. Firstly, okay, so I have decided before COVID, by the way, I had decided I will only invest in companies where I can physically meet them and spend time with them.
00:59:03
Speaker
There were startups which were based in Hyderabad, Bangalore. I never even touched them. It was a simple reason. My daughter is married and lives in Bombay. I live in Delhi. I had decided that if Delhi could go to NCR, Bombay based companies would invest. Because I keep going to Bombay, I can spend time with them. I want to spend time with them. I don't want to invest in a company in Hyderabad and then forget about it. That's not my purpose. So that was one
00:59:32
Speaker
criteria for shortlisting. Criteria number two was, obviously the business model has to be good. And we realized that his business, see Oostheim, you know, co-working spaces were not common. We had very, very few of them. And we realized it was a brilliant solution to the problem of getting office space in cities like Bombay, Delhi, Gurgaon, Bangalore, and so on. So how many ideas were there?
00:59:56
Speaker
Third, I like the idea of working with this guy because I realized that he was open to listening. I could learn from him. He could learn from me. So I realized I could participate a lot in this and which is why I invested. So there are companies where I find I cannot participate. Those are areas I'm not really interested in. I don't invest in it.
01:00:21
Speaker
Obviously, I like to make money, but so far, frankly, in some of them, I am likely to make money, but some of them have lost money. Okay. And till date, how many Indian investments have you made? I have done roughly Bara, 12.
01:00:41
Speaker
And would you have an ARS company? I would say definitely. So I would say for the simple reason that it was I was I kept meeting him and I had a very big role to play in the company and the direction the company is taking. So all the companies where I have been involved
01:01:08
Speaker
I have had fun. So there is one very interesting company, Johamari MDI students say, Kwaku. So Chaitanya Jha and Avinav Himandhi. Kwaku unfortunately has to close down, but bahat madhaya because one is, you know, I was actually involved and two is, these were my students.
01:01:28
Speaker
I used to learn a lot from these guys. So I would say I have realized that there are two sides to being an angel investor and very interesting. One is there are companies where I find I can be involved and two is companies where I can make money. So the ideal angel investment is one where these two intersect.
01:02:00
Speaker
So, my experience has been the first few years I invested based on excitement. Now, I invest
01:02:15
Speaker
I am involved. Yes, I look at being involved, but also I take a solid look at the business model. I look, take a lot of look at traction. So I have learned a lot over the years. So today I would say in the last two years, my investments will probably get me far more money. But like I said, that's not my aim. That's not my primary aim. I don't want to lose money.
01:02:41
Speaker
But my primary aim is that I want to be involved, I want to learn, and I want to stay young. And I, you know, when I keep spending time with all these youngsters like you, I stay young. I don't feel retired. I feel I'm a youngster now. And which investment has most returned for you?
01:03:01
Speaker
So as of now, I have not yet had an exit, which has got me good
Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
01:03:07
Speaker
returns. In fact, I've only had four exits of which one has just returned the money and three of them have died. Okay. The others have not got an exit yet, but the last two and I can name them. One is a company called planet Spark. Very good company. They are into online training, online learning for school kids.
01:03:30
Speaker
which is beyond the curriculum. So they will do things like robotics, they will do things like coding, they will do things like dance, art, painting, vaguerra, vaguerra. So that is one. And they're doing very well. They're growing rapidly.
01:03:45
Speaker
So that is one, but we exit the stage. The other one is again in the ed tech space. It is called Okey Pocky, which is till the age of around six. See, the problem is many of these kids cannot speak English because school may English background.
01:04:04
Speaker
It is basically trying to target kids in vernacular environments and helping them to learn English. And that is doing brilliantly, especially COVID time because it's doing brilliantly. So these are two which are doing very, very well. But in my exit name, I would imagine the exit is about two, three years away, which is OK. I'm fine. I'm learning. I'm having fun.
01:04:27
Speaker
You are a patient investor. I don't want to exit. See, but you know, you must remember one thing. And this is one piece of advice I give to all potential angel investors.
01:05:00
Speaker
So, I am very clear.
01:05:09
Speaker
So, one is property, I have my own house and I have one more. Because that is my play money. I call that my play money and my wife and I have an understanding. So, by the way, I must tell you
01:05:34
Speaker
I must tell you, when a company dies, I have to write it off. So, immediately I can invest in one more. But, because that's two risks.
01:05:58
Speaker
I have not even invested in one company.
01:06:21
Speaker
So, my last two questions for you. If there is a startup listening and he wants to approach you, he or she wants to approach you for funding, how does he go about it? He or she go about it? So, there are two, three options. One is Lead Angels go to their website.
01:06:38
Speaker
and there you can apply. The other option is you can give him my email ID. He can approach me. My email ID is so my official email ID will not be valid anymore because I've retired from MDA. So my personal email ID is Dhruv D H R U V N for Nath 5 5 at gmail.com or you can go to catch me on LinkedIn and send me a message. I must also tell you that a lot of founders
01:07:07
Speaker
don't realize that their company is not fundable right now. You know, about per month, about 100 or 150 people approach us and we are able to shortlist only three or four because many people, they have bright ideas or they don't have an entry barrier, traction, too much competition, very crowded space. So what I have started doing is something very interesting. And for that, again, these guys can contact me either on LinkedIn or on my email ID.
01:07:38
Speaker
or they can buy your book also because I think there are a lot of lessons in the book. Yeah, although I'll be very grateful and whatever royalty I get, I'm willing to treat them because I'm not doing it for royalty. Whatever royalty you get, you have to promise that you'll invest back in certain.
01:07:57
Speaker
See, I spend a lot of time mentoring startups. But I like doing that. So I'm very happy to invest all my royalty in that.
01:08:18
Speaker
If it can, if the other guy can learn and I learn in the process, wonderful. So I have started one thing. It is a very interactive webinar, which I call how fundable is your startup.
01:08:31
Speaker
And that is normally about two hours long. I give some general Guyan about my experiences, and then I try and analyze each of the startups which has come to the webinar. So I spend about 10-12 minutes with each of them, and I give them advice, frank advice. I think this is the direction you should take. This is the direction you should not take. From there, I shortlist those guys which are worth taking up for funding, maybe immediately or maybe in two or three months.
01:09:01
Speaker
So, these guys in addition to buying the book are welcome to join me in that webinar. In fact, now what we are planning to do is we may price that webinar at more or less the price of the book. So, you get a free webinar and within that you get the book. This is a good go-to-market strategy. I would like more and more people to be aware because I have realized so many founders have no clue.
01:09:33
Speaker
Thank you Professor Dhruv for this lovely talk. I think I have learned a lot especially on MBAs and also how do you look at angel investing. I did another episode with Vivek Khare who is also an angel investor and was with Nokri. So he was Sanjeev's right hand man for a long time.
01:09:58
Speaker
and there are a lot of tips for angel investors in that as well. So, if any of the listeners are more interested in angel investment, they should also listen to that. But thank you for your time and loved it and catch you soon. Thanks boss. Thank you. Always good fun talking to you and I always learn from you.
01:10:26
Speaker
So guys, upgrade your camera. If you are listening to upgrade with knuckles, a production of the 14.8, don't forget to like and subscribe.