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Episode 021: Paige Griffith - Building a Business in a Small Market
143 Plays6 years ago
Today's guest is wedding photographer and attorney Paige Griffith of Paige Marie Photography. Paige primarily serves the Missoula, Montana area, which—relative to cities that we're near like Baltimore and Washington DC—is a pretty small market, and that's exactly the reason that I wanted to chat with Paige. We often hear from people in smaller markets that some of the strategies out there just don't work for their smaller, especially more rural areas. Well, I wanted to chat with Paige about how she was able to build a six-figure photography business in a smaller market. She outlines the challenges business owners face in those markets and then gives us steps that business owners can take to market their businesses in those areas.
The highlights:
03:02 How a creative outlet in law school led to a full-time business.
10:40 The three challenges of building a business in a small(er) market.
16:15 How Paige intentionally built her portfolio.
20:43 Advertising in a small market, and the importance of choosing the right publications and platforms.
24:03 How marketing with handouts is still effective for Paige, and the importance of building a personal brand.
31:11 The challenge of pricing services in a smaller market—and understanding what your ideal client is willing to pay.
36:56 What it means to 'find a niche, fill the niche, kill the niche.'
43:05 The importance of going to your audience.
45:56 Getting published in local and regional publications.
48:22 How to get participation from other vendors in styled shoots.
50:55 The importance of investing in a website.
55:45 How Paige manages being both a full time attorney and full time wedding photographer.
Paige's Biography:
Paige Griffith graduated in May 2016 from the University of Montana School of Law with high honors, and also holds a double BA in Economics and Political Science from Pacific Lutheran University. During her time in law school, she was actively involved in the Women's Law Caucus, Montana Law Review, and National Moot Court Team. She started a photography business during law school which became a six-figure business in just 3 years. Paige combined her legal and entrepreneurial passions by helping other entrepreneurs and creatives create successful and legitimate businesses. Her goal is to create a space where all small businesses feel protected and confident. The Legal Paige was founded in 2018 and is an online legal consulting and business consulting firm.
Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
The Legal Paige
James & Jess Photography
Check out the show notes at Davey & Krista for links, resources, transcripts, and other episode materials.
Recommended
Transcript
Finding and Dominating Your Niche
00:00:05
Speaker
This is my biggest advice if I were coaching someone. So I live by the motto, find a niche, fill the niche, kill the niche.
Introduction to the Brands at Book Show
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
Meet Paige Griffith: Photographer and Attorney
00:00:31
Speaker
Today's guest is wedding photographer and attorney Paige Griffith of Paige Marie Photography. Paige primarily serves the Missoula, Montana area, which relative to cities that were near like Baltimore and Washington DC, is a pretty small market.
Challenges in Small Market Business Strategies
00:00:45
Speaker
And that's exactly the reason that I wanted to chat with Paige. We often hear from people in smaller markets that some of the strategies out there just don't work for their smaller, especially more rural areas.
00:00:57
Speaker
Well, I wanted to chat with Paige about how she was able to build a six-figure photography business in a smaller market. She outlines the challenges business owners face in those markets and then gives us steps that business owners can take to market their businesses in those areas.
00:01:13
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at DavyandChrista.com for the resources that we mentioned during this episode. And I'd like to hear from you about what kind of content you'd like to see on the Brands at Book podcast. I'd also like to know what episodes you've enjoyed so far and why. To leave your feedback, head on over to the Davy and Christa Facebook page and send us a message.
Paige's Dual Career Journey
00:01:33
Speaker
Now onto the episode.
00:01:42
Speaker
We are live. Welcome to the show, Paige. Thank you so much for having me. You know, when you reached out about this topic, so what we're talking about today is building a business in a small market or a smaller market. I thought that was just going to be such an interesting topic because when we built our photography business, we're right outside of Annapolis in Maryland. So an hour north, basically, you have Baltimore, an hour south, you have D.C., then an hour east, you have the beaches.
00:02:08
Speaker
I feel like we're in a great area to build a photography business just because there are so many different wedding destinations around us. There are two big cities around us. And so we often get met with some objections when we're talking about marketing ideas sometimes saying, you know, Davey, that's great. But what you're talking about wouldn't work for my market. You know, it's much smaller or it's much more rural or I can never charge those prices.
00:02:34
Speaker
And so I'm really interested in getting into some of those ideas with you. The other thing that I want to talk about is the fact that you're both an attorney and a photographer, and neither is a side hustle, right? I mean, people could probably guess that becoming an attorney is definitely not a side hustle, but the photography business isn't either. So could you just give us some background on how going to law school and becoming an attorney, where does the photography business fit in there?
00:03:04
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. My background is non-conventional and I love sharing it with people because I really feel like people can relate, whether it's a side hustle or you're working a full-time job and doing something that you're passionate about. So my background is I am a wedding and portrait photographer in Western Montana.
00:03:23
Speaker
I live in the beautiful city of Missoula, Montana with my fiance and dog Sugar. But like you said, I'm also an attorney, so I always add that in there. And not that it's my second job, but I went to law school here in Montana at the University of Montana, and I've actually been practicing for almost two years now.
00:03:45
Speaker
And when you talk about how does it all fit in, it really is this different path that I ever saw myself going on. And it kind of just came all at the right time. And I was at the right place to accept photography into my life. So I started shooting photography more than just a hobby, like right before law school.
00:04:07
Speaker
Ultimately, Davey, I was just doing it to give myself a creative outlet during my bookworm reading and writing craziness in law school. From there, it grew from more of a personal hobby into a full-fledged business in probably about a year. When you were getting started, it was really just a creative outlet.
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I was in the midst of an insane educational experience with law school, and law school is really a full-time job as well. Many people have said that, and I just knew I needed something to work another side of my brain, and I'd always liked photography, and so I was back in my hometown.
Career Decisions: Law vs Photography
00:04:48
Speaker
I left for college, and I came back here to go to law school.
00:04:51
Speaker
And I just decided that it would be a good opportunity since I know people around town to really hone my creative juices and get them flowing a little bit more. So how did that start? I mean, what were you taking pictures of that somebody came along and said, hey, can you take pictures of me? And to clarify, you do mostly wedding photography, correct?
00:05:11
Speaker
Yes, now my business is primarily wedding photography. And I'm going to get into that later when we kind of talk about how I built it in a relatively small market. But I started out with portrait photography. So like I said, I'm from Missoula. And so it was nice because I just kind of started shooting friends and family around town. And then word of mouth got around and I just kept shooting families and portraits primarily.
00:05:36
Speaker
So couples and lots of families with small children, everyone was kind of right around that age range for where I'm at in life as well during law school. And so yeah, it just kind of grew and it didn't, I obviously had a lot to do with the growth.
00:05:52
Speaker
But I didn't anticipate it growing into this six-figure business during law school. I'm trying to maintain my grades and then you know I was really at this path in life like do I take a job that I've worked really hard for with my educational background and go into the lawyer world or do I pursue photography full-time and
00:06:13
Speaker
And at that point when I had graduated law school I wasn't ready to make that decision, which is why I decided to do both. I was at a good point in my life where I had graduated law school at 24 years old and I didn't have any kids. I was ready and eager to kind of take on both.
00:06:33
Speaker
I loved law school and I continue on with both. So and let's talk about that real quick. I want to go back and I want to talk about Sula as a market. So what kind of market you built your business in. But before that, you clerk for a federal judge, right? I do currently. So this is the job that you worked really hard for. And I got to imagine that it's not an easy job to get. Not just everybody gets this job. So tell us about making that decision.
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah. So again, it's all about timing for me. And I was trying to make the best decision for my life, looking towards the future and really not knowing what the future was going to be in three to five years. And so I, like I said, I'd worked my fanny off during undergrad and during law school to maintain a really good GPA, to be involved in everything in law school.
00:07:24
Speaker
And I was offered a position with a federal judge here in Missoula, which was a very, very desired position to stay in this beautiful city that I live in. And so that happened actually at the end of my second year of law school and law school is for three years.
00:07:45
Speaker
And by that point, I wasn't making a lot of money with photography. I was still in the beginning stages of it. So like I said, I kind of took that job thinking, oh, my gosh, I've worked so hard for this. This is exactly what I wanted. This is what every law student would want to do. And I have loved my clerkship with my judge. I just it was the perfect I'm a very things happen for a reason type of person.
00:08:12
Speaker
And so for the past two years it's given me this beautiful grace and transition period to allow myself a couple years after law school to really figure out what i want to do in the legal world without having to go to a firm and still being able to do photography in the evenings and weekends so it's perfect.
Balancing Jobs and Market Dynamics
00:08:32
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that this is going to be such a valuable conversation for people who are in a full time job right now, thinking how am I going to ever build this photography business into a business that could support me solely or, you know, maybe even validation for people who want to continue
00:08:50
Speaker
building their photography business, but love the job they're working right now and have no intention of leaving. So I'm excited to dig into this with you. So let's do it. Tell us about the market, just kind of the breakdown so that we get a sense of the kind of environment that you built your business in. Yes, I love talking about this because Missoula is a definite, you know, it's very specific market that lots of photographers are in, actually. So
00:09:16
Speaker
It's pretty small. It's not like a super small town, like 300 to 3000 people, but it's still a relatively smaller city. It's 60,000 to about 70,000 people living in Missoula and the surrounding area. And we're actually one of the biggest cities in Montana. So we're also talking about a state that's very large and we have about a million people in the state. I think we just broke a million most recently.
00:09:45
Speaker
So we don't have a ton of people in this entire state. I just happen to live in one of the more populated, you know, areas. But however, Missoula, Montana is also home to Rocky Mountain School of Photography, which is one of the top photography schools in the nation. And so people from out of state come to Missoula, Montana all the time, you know, to come to this neck of the woods and learn and hone their craft with photography.
00:10:10
Speaker
That's really interesting. You have a small state, small city, or a small population-wise state, not a small state, but population-wise, it certainly is. Then you have this photography school. I assume that for the population, it's a pretty saturated market in terms of photographers. Yeah, I would say it's oversaturated. When people really say that it's a saturated market for photography, no matter where they're talking about, it's crazy because I think Missoula is five-fold that.
00:10:39
Speaker
What specifically in so you're in the small market specifically, what do you think the challenges are of building a photography business in a small market? I'm so glad you asked me this because it really helped me kind of take a step back about five to six years ago when I was first starting out and really think about okay, where was I and you know, how did I get to where I am today? And I wanted to kind of lay this out for the listeners here today with three different challenges. So the first one is
00:11:08
Speaker
There simply just isn't enough people to go around. And like I said, there's a ton of photographers in the area with very few clientele. So I had to really assess what I could bring to the table that others couldn't. And I didn't let the excuses get to me. So the excuses, you know, many photographers in small towns say that
00:11:30
Speaker
They'd, you know, they'd have more work if there were more people where they lived, or there are already well-known photographers in this area that have studios and that have a name for themselves. So how do I fit in? Or people, you know, say everyone has money to spend on photography in cities, but no one has that kind of disposable income in a small town. So really, instead of focusing on all of these excuses, and primarily, you know, there's not enough people to go around, I really tried to turn those excuses on their head.
00:12:00
Speaker
So I was like, where do I fit in? And I really, I assessed where I had been and what I could bring to photography that wasn't just photography. And I think that's where I found, you know, my catapults. So I have a wedding and event planning background.
00:12:18
Speaker
So I did wedding planning when I was in high school. And then when I went to college over in the Seattle area, I did a corporate event planning. And so I leveraged that over and over and over again to be able to book weddings. And I told my couples that I could do custom wedding timelines for them to just give myself an edge over other photographers in the area. So that's pretty much challenge number one, don't let excuses get to you. And, you know, the challenge of there's just simply not enough people to go around.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, and you know, I think the so certainly true about a small market, you know, but people make those excuses about bigger markets too, you know, because in the area that you're starting, there's probably a photographer who came before you or photographers or businesses, you know, whatever industry it is that you're in.
00:13:01
Speaker
and people who've already made a name for themselves and it can seem, especially when you're a small business, overwhelming where to start. You can always fall back on those excuses. I think that's great advice for really just anybody in any market. Number two, what's challenge number two? Pricing. Challenge number two is
00:13:19
Speaker
really figuring out the supply and demand of the relatively small town. So a little more background about me, I'm an economics major, which means I really loved the fact that I could navigate supply and demand and figure out where I fit in. So with fewer clients ultimately in a small town, they're going to think that they have the power. That's just a mentality that they're going to have.
00:13:45
Speaker
so that they can get the biggest bang for their buck, especially in Missoula because they know it's a saturated market. It's weird. They just kind of know that it is in Missoula. I think especially because Rocky Mountain School of Photography is so well known as a school. The layperson knows that there's a ton of photographers rolling around and that we're itching to book them.
00:14:06
Speaker
I knew from the beginning that I didn't want to charge $50 for a session and make a couple bucks an hour after everything is said and done. So my biggest advice here with pricing challenges in a small town is don't lower your price at the beginning, especially because of the small town vibe and word of mouth.
00:14:28
Speaker
So I did a bunch of free sessions at the beginning, just free, like didn't charge at all. And I did about five to 10 really nice styled portrait sessions with specific families that I knew were going to do, you know, had lots of other friends and families in the area that appealed to my brand and style and that they would be able to give good word of mouth.
00:14:52
Speaker
So I wanted to look high end at the beginning, but also not charge. And that allowed me to set a base price that was higher than others just starting out.
00:15:02
Speaker
So it allowed me to not underprice myself at the beginning. And with a small town, like I said, word of mouth, everyone's talking to one another. So I didn't want to charge one family one price and then two months later decide to increase my prices. And there would be some controversy there because everyone's just expecting that I'm a certain price. So if you do it low to begin with in a small town, I think it actually really hurts you in the long run.
00:15:27
Speaker
Sure.
Small vs Big Market Strategies
00:15:28
Speaker
I think that's true. We, especially when we first got started, would have friends of clients because they were guests at the wedding and they come back and say, well, I don't remember so and so saying you're that expensive because we had raised our prices since. I can definitely see that being a challenge. How did you prevent? I think that's great that you are very specific about the people you chose who are you going to do free sessions with, people who are going to share, people who are going to talk to their friends and family about it.
00:15:56
Speaker
Two follow-up questions. The first one, how did you go about choosing the families and couples that you wanted to shoot to build your portfolio? And then two, did you work out something with them in the beginning so that they wouldn't share that they got the session for free? Okay, two great questions. So number one, I chose the people based upon what I ultimately wanted my photography style and brand to look like in a year or two.
00:16:26
Speaker
So if you do that from the get go, that's really going to help you in a small town. And I'm going to talk about my niche in the Missoula, Montana market that I think has really helped my business. But I also, I grew up here. And so I know lots of people and I kind of knew who had connections in town and who would be able to give a better word of mouth than others. And I was able to do, I also specifically chose different sets of families. So like a couple,
00:16:53
Speaker
and then a couple with kids at a certain age and then maybe a couple with kids at an older age and so on and so forth. So I was making a vast versatile portfolio at the beginning.
00:17:06
Speaker
now i didn't tell that that's a great question baby i never told them to tell everyone that i was doing this for free i think in a small town because you can really get to know your couples on a very different level and people know who you are they know your background everyone was
00:17:24
Speaker
at the beginning, very grateful that I had given them a free session. And so I just made it very clear at the end of their sessions that I was going to post and I would really appreciate reposting and telling everyone about my photography and that I'm getting started, you know, I'm just starting out. And so any word of mouth they could give me would be great. And I would be happy to give them a referral discount in the future. So
00:17:50
Speaker
By saying that, they knew that I was charging after that. So it was kind of like, do this for me for free. Do, you know, have this specific style and let me kind of choose how your session's going to go. And then if you want to book me in the future, I would really appreciate it. And I'll give you a discount by telling others about me.
00:18:07
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that is a great approach. The other thing too about free work, I like how you had a plan going into it. Because I think if you don't have a plan going into it, you fall into the trap of just doing free work for way too long, with really no end goal in mind. Something that we occasionally tell people about free work to, to increase the perceived value is say, hey, listen, usually, you know, when you first ask the person say, usually I charge X amount. But
00:18:32
Speaker
you know, I'm trying to build my portfolio in this way, or I'm trying out some new things, would you mind, or could I, you know, do a session for you and your family, and I'll completely waive that fee. And then that way, they kind of know, oh, this usually, this usually costs 500 or 750, or however much money it costs, and then going forward. So if they do talk to friends, they can say, Oh, well, you know, it costs whatever, you know, so I love that. Moving on to challenge number three.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, number three was I was trying to tap into the senior photography market in Missoula, Montana. So again, I'm going to talk here about relatively small towns. So we only have three public high schools in the area, about one private high school. There's not a lot of seniors to go around for photographers. And there were so many senior photographers in Missoula, Montana that I've had a name for themselves. So it does kind of relate to number one. But senior photography was
00:19:29
Speaker
probably my biggest challenge. I truly felt like this was the hardest market to tap into. And some of these photographers had been shooting for like one to two decades, three decades. So everyone knew about them. Like their parents had their senior photos from them. And it's a small town, so people just expect that you go to them. They are also now one of my mentors and biggest
00:19:57
Speaker
friends in the area, which is awesome, total community over competition. But I just realized that I had to find where I fit in with my niche and the brand that I could create under page Marie photography. And so that challenge at the beginning, Davey really took me probably five years. So I finally found my niche with senior photography. So that's challenge number three.
00:20:23
Speaker
So what would you say, I mean, really the differences between building a business in a small market and a bigger market? Is it true that the conventional wisdom that's given about marketing or building a business in a bigger market just doesn't apply to a small market? Or do you find that there's a little bit more overlap than people think?
00:20:43
Speaker
I think there's definitely more overlap than people think. However, it really depends on what your small town does for advertising and I think you have to do research at the beginning. The biggest difference for me is utilizing old school advertising to attract clients.
00:21:02
Speaker
So I definitely did my research at the beginning when I was getting into the weeds of the business side of things. And it came to my attention that photographers in larger cities really liked the knot and paying for advertising online. But with my market, clients weren't looking there. They're in Montana. We call it the Montana bubble. They're not looking at those bigger online advertising publications.
00:21:29
Speaker
And so I started talking to, it's all about like, where are people talking to their friends about who to get engagement photos done with? Or who, you know, where are they saying, oh, yeah, well, my daughter should get her senior photography from from this person. And we talk about social media a lot. But back about five to six years ago, when I started, I realized early on that they were on Facebook.
00:21:56
Speaker
And so if I would have gone to Instagram first, which would have been what I assumed would be the perfect platform for photography, that would have been a big mistake. So Instagram wasn't that big in Montana about five to six years ago. I always joke because we're about like two to three years behind.
00:22:16
Speaker
the rest of the United States sometimes. So my moms and people, you know, moms of seniors and people my age getting married, we're still scrolling through their Facebook feeds and Instagram. So that Facebook presence.
00:22:30
Speaker
Yep, so I built my Facebook presence first and then I realized that I could transition to Instagram once people started getting on that platform a lot more. So it is conventional, but I would say to like leverage your research at
00:22:47
Speaker
you know leverage where your clients are at by researching at the beginning because even as in a smaller town i can imagine that. You know people are at the local basketball game talking about things and how can you get in to that market and be a part of the community and do some old school advertising if.
00:23:07
Speaker
say, you know, radio advertisements are still where people are listening to getting their photography from. So yeah, no, that totally makes sense. And it and it would make sense to me, you know, especially in maybe a smaller, more rural area that, you know, whatever the cutting edge technology is, or where, you know, when it wouldn't necessarily be there as quickly, you know. And so I think that's, I think that's great advice. I also think in there too,
00:23:33
Speaker
some, you know, there's a reason that you still get direct mail advertisements in your mailbox, like physical coupons, things like that. Because for certain businesses, that kind of stuff works. And there's a reason that it works. Everybody has a mailbox, everybody every day goes and checks their mailbox and sorts through the mail. You know, so I think that's I think that's great advice just to research your market, understand how people are getting their information and how people are sharing that information. What are some other differences?
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, just to touch on that one more before I change. So I always had photographers in larger cities tell me that like handouts, like physical handouts weren't a thing anymore. And they totally are. Like in Missoula, Montana, I do handouts and people still talk to me about these
00:24:17
Speaker
brochures or little senior photography rep handouts that I send with my representatives at the local high schools. They still work and those were things that I remember about 10 to 15 years ago when I was in school. I think small town, yeah, it's still a little bit old school and you have to realize that not everything is online and on social media.
Navigating Seasonal Trends and Pricing
00:24:40
Speaker
That's just so fascinating to hear. I wouldn't say it's surprising necessarily that it would work. When a kid goes to school, that's probably one of the easiest ways for them to share information that they can then bring home. That totally makes sense too. But what else? Any other differences between smaller markets and bigger markets? Yeah, I would say that you as a person is way easier to be your brand than it is in
00:25:09
Speaker
a larger city. So you have this really awesome opportunity to not be just a shoot and burn photographer and you can make it a point to have your clients love you. So I made it a point to be page and not page marine photography and make my clients feel loved and cared for and special and then they would go and tell all of their friends and family because word of mouth is your biggest advertisement in a small town.
00:25:38
Speaker
And I think that they teach that in a larger market, but it's much different because people are scrolling through social media and looking through hundreds of photographers to choose from. And here in a small town, it's a lot more word of mouth and referral based. And so if you're really branding yourself as a person versus a service, I think that really, really helps and is a difference between a small town and a large town.
00:26:02
Speaker
Sure, especially I would assume in a small town, maybe there in some ways, there's more points of contact, physical points of contact that is, you know, at a local basketball game or something like that. Whereas maybe in a bigger city, even though you think that there's more people, there might be less, you know, points of contact like physical conversations. So that makes sense. Anything else? Yeah, I would say that in a small town, you have the ability to
00:26:27
Speaker
you know, beat out the foreign competition a lot better than you do in a larger town. So this this ties well to the last one that I discussed, but keeping your community focused on patronage. So meeting with local businesses, I'm from here. And so I really use that to my advantage. You know, I grew up here riding bikes around the streets of Missoula. So I wasn't a photographer coming in from out of state.
00:26:55
Speaker
who ended up just loving the Montana landscape and lots of photographers do that. They come in, they love it, they want to stay. But I had an edge that others didn't, as in I knew the family next door for the past 15 years. And so being able to really talk about that and cultivate that through social media, through my website, again, it made me real and page and different than other photographers.
00:27:21
Speaker
Yeah. And again, I think to the takeaway from that is even if you're part of it, even if you're in a bigger market, when you're trying to build a business, sometimes it can be overwhelming thinking, okay, how do I go out and get all of the people? But one thing that I hear you talking about is you're really hyper focused on the clients that you do have, making them feel as special as possible, really tapping into the community. And I think by having that focus, which is more narrow than trying to serve everyone,
00:27:51
Speaker
you know, ends up making for a busier business. Definitely. I think that relates across the board for large cities and small towns, realizing that you can just serve a very small market and you'll be very successful doing that versus trying to spread yourself too thin and serve everyone. And I would say in a small town too, I just wanted to touch on this because I would say like northern part of the United States
00:28:14
Speaker
really relates to this. If you're a photographer in those states, your attitude greatly impacts the success of your business. And I always kept my head up even during months when I wasn't booking. And so in small towns, you might not book during specific seasons. So in Montana,
00:28:35
Speaker
And like I said, the northern states here, we are very seasonal. So we have lots of snow. And I had to realize that, you know, January through April, I probably wasn't going to be booking much much. And I had months where I wasn't booking anything. You know, the snow's around and then it melts and it's brown and gray and gross. And no one takes photos.
00:28:57
Speaker
and i think people get down about that especially when they're first starting out in the photography business world and they're like i'm not looking constantly like i'm not gonna be successful i don't know what to do so realizing that you have a peak season and keeping your head up about even the downsides of whatever your business you know wherever your business may be realizing that seasonal effects me may take place.
00:29:23
Speaker
Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think, I mean, that's something we hear about from people all the time is there's months that come along and it's like, I haven't booked anything and there's this moment of freak out and we've had it in our business as well. And then, you know, something that changed this for us was we just simply started keeping track of our inquiries. Every inquiry that came in went into a spreadsheet. It wasn't like some crazy spreadsheet.
00:29:46
Speaker
require any sort of advanced degree to use. But what we were able to see then year after year was, okay, we generally book, we generally get this many inquiries during this season. We generally, inquiries are coming from these places. And so that way we can say, whether it be April or September or whatever it is, if inquiries were slow, we can go back to the year prior and say, okay, well, how are inquiries back then?
00:30:11
Speaker
And like you said, you start seeing some seasonal trends. Now, our seasonal trends are probably not like your seasonal trends. And that is something that I feel like I've heard, depending, you know, very geographically based. Some geographic areas are just going to have more seasonal trends than others.
00:30:28
Speaker
one of our friends is a photographer up in Canada and she was telling us that yeah, their season is, you know, it's pretty short. It's like from May to October and after that, you know, there's no photography because for all the reasons that you just mentioned, you know, nobody wants to be doing anything. Oh yeah, June, July and August are when you book weddings and other than that, they're a little more sporadic.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, and that's good to know. And I encourage everybody to be keeping track of their inquiries so that they can make educated decisions about their business, understand where inquiries are coming coming from. But I've ranted about that kind of stuff in other episodes. So I'll leave it. I'll leave it at that. Great advice. So any any other differences?
00:31:10
Speaker
The one I wanted to touch on again, it's funny because it always relates back to where the challenge was at the beginning. I would say price again is one of the biggest ones between a small market and a bigger market. I'd love to explore that a little bit for a second because one thing, and I can't remember where this conversation come up, it might have happened at United, which is a photography conference down in Arizona each year.
00:31:38
Speaker
But somebody was talking about trying to raise their prices and somebody else had said to that person, well, why? And you know, they hear about photographers in these big cities like or you know, maybe even more wealthy cities like Santa Barbara, you know, like if you're in Santa Barbara, you're probably charging a little bit more because it costs a ton to live there, you know, or if you're in the middle of New York City. So how do you go about pricing yourself in a smaller market?
00:32:01
Speaker
Yeah, I love this topic too, Davey. It's so interesting. So I love the show at conference, the United show at conference. They're awesome. Todd Watson and his team are amazing. And it totally is, you know, two degrees of separation here on this
Coaching and Niche Focus Advice
00:32:15
Speaker
question. So one of the people that taught me the most about pricing differences is James and Jess photography there in Santa Barbara. And they had told me raise your prices. And I really had to take a step back and realize,
00:32:31
Speaker
can't. Like I'm at the peak here of where my price market is and who I want to serve in Montana. And like you said, there's such a difference in income based upon where you're at. So again, it's like 101 in school research at the beginning. So Montana is a unique state. We have a very, we have a much lower average income than the rest of the United States.
00:32:59
Speaker
much, much lower. And it's easier to like people come here from out of state and they're like, oh, it's so cheap. Like it's easy to live here. And I really wanted to serve the middle class population in Western Montana. So I knew that very on that that was my niche and I needed to figure out where the pricing was there. So in all honesty, Davey, I'll never be able to charge
00:33:23
Speaker
six to ten thousand dollars for a wedding. I could if I wanted to be in that upper echelon destination Montana wedding photographer that people are coming in from out of state and paying that amount.
00:33:37
Speaker
But that isn't the clients I wanted to serve. I wanted to serve the clients who have been born and raised here, their families are here, they're having the awesome Barn Montana weddings and having a good old time, you know, till midnight dancing to a band. So I knew that I needed to price accordingly and that my middle market was right around three to four thousand and that was okay with me to never get above that.
00:34:03
Speaker
So in a small town, I think you also as a photographer starting out need to realize that it's okay if you're making a little bit less money than others because you need to take into account how much others in your city are making. And if you're right in line with them, then you're doing great. Like you have a wonderful business and you're supporting yourself and you're helping others in the small town area as well.
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah, and I think what you're saying, I mean, that's okay, you know, the clientele, if you understand like your clientele, and this is on average how much they make or this is how much I can charge them in order to work for them, I mean, and that's okay. And the other thing too is, you know, you've built a six figure photography business, that is more than enough to live on, you know, and I would say it's, I don't know, really anything about Montana, to be honest, but I would assume that that makes you, you know, like that you're very upper middle class.
00:34:58
Speaker
On just on that salary, I mean, I'm not even counting, you know, you're also a lawyer, which I'm sure I'm sure your clerkship pays something as well. But point being, and that's totally okay. And so, you know, I think a little self reflection there, realizing, okay, why do I want to why do I want to charge $10,000 for a wedding? Is it is it for my ego? Is it so that I can tell other photographers that I'm charging $10,000? Or is it because I want to work with that kind of client? You know, so those are all good questions, I think, to go through. And I think it's
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah, or is it the price of living? I mean, again, the reflection, that's a very big difference depending on where you're living. And so realizing and doing some internal soul searching on where you live and why you want to live there and how much people are making to live there is really important.
00:35:49
Speaker
Yeah and like you said I mean about James and Jess and in Santa Barbara and we've been talking about having them on the show as well. Oh you should they're awesome. Yeah they are they're great but in Santa Barbara very different market right I mean it's just a very I mean if you live in Santa Barbara it's expensive.
00:36:05
Speaker
You know, so it would make sense that the prices for wedding photography would match. So that's super interesting. So moving on here, if you were starting over, you know, and it sounds like one thing I think that's interesting about your story and maybe it's the attorney in you.
00:36:22
Speaker
but you just did a ton of research going into it. Even though this wasn't something that you expected, photography wasn't something that you necessarily thought maybe you were going to get into, but once you did, it seems like you did a ton of research at the outset. Maybe the right question isn't to ask you if you were starting over what you would do. If you were coaching somebody else in a similar position as you, in a similar market, what are the steps that you would tell them to take
00:36:52
Speaker
in order to build their business in the smaller market? Yeah, this is probably my favorite question of all because now I'm at this place in my business where I love coaching other photographers. I do workshops all the time on business building. And like you said, it comes from my lawyer background, my economics background. I live for analytics and for research.
00:37:16
Speaker
and figuring out what works early on. So we were talking about finding a niche and this is my biggest advice if I were coaching someone. So I live by the motto, find a niche, fill the niche, kill the niche.
00:37:33
Speaker
Instead of following others leads in the area and we were a saturated photography market, I looked around and realized that there wasn't too many light and airy photographers with like bright colors in their photos. And I'm a pretty colorful person and then kind of flamboyant. Like I'm always going to wear pink if you see me. And I just never really saw myself as a dark and moody photographer. And there were so many in the area.
00:37:59
Speaker
And so I was like, well, if I was a client, how would I see the differences between that? And so early on, I started carving my niche in the market and worked hard to portray my style over and over and over again in social media, everyone's photos. I tried to be exactly the same at the beginning.
00:38:19
Speaker
And it's really interesting now looking back at my style, I would say that it's still pretty similar. And when people are trying to find their styles, I think that's wonderful. But in a small town in particular, if you're trying to find that niche early on and be successful, I think you need to find your style and go with it. And so I focused on that. And I was really able to, again,
00:38:39
Speaker
not please everyone so the people that wanted a dark and moody photographer they wouldn't even look at me which is totally fine because it wasn't the clients that i wanted to serve so the biggest thing is the niche find it on it kill it.
00:38:55
Speaker
Okay, awesome. So what's next? What's step number two? Again, figure out early on where your market is all day long. So are they chatting with, you know, people at their houses? Are they at the beloved college football stadium here in Missoula, Montana? Are they on Facebook versus Instagram? Like I said, it's easier to figure out where they are in a small town versus a large town.
00:39:21
Speaker
So do your research early on, figure out where they're at and don't forget this step because it's crucial to being a successful business owner. I think across the board for entrepreneurs, like figure out where you can target your audience and stay there and do that for a while until the market shifts. So you got to go to them.
00:39:44
Speaker
And that's the end. Hopefully, I'm not cutting off one of your one of your next steps. But I think some people think that if you if you just do good enough work, you know, and doing good work is important for
Building Community and Brand Presence
00:39:55
Speaker
sure. There's no substitute for that you got to be good at what you got to become good at what you're what you're doing, you got to do good work, you got to serve people well, for sure. But going and getting in front of clients and marketing to them is
00:40:07
Speaker
almost as important. You know, like if you want to actually pay your bills, that's just as important. So just to throw that in there. Step one, finding a niche, filling the niche, killing the niche. Did I say that right? All right. Find, fill, kill. Love that. All right. So moving on to number two, where is your market? What's step three?
00:40:26
Speaker
Step three, I think you transitioned into this well. So be an active member in your community and don't feel bad talking about yourself. So people have a really hard time doing that. And I think I was probably just blessed with like being an extrovert outgoing person. And so I think that is kind of difficult for some introverts. But instead of just being a photographer, like I had said previously, I wanted to be known as Paige.
00:40:51
Speaker
And so you can talk face to face in small towns a lot better than you can in large towns or large cities and people will listen here. Like they want face to face time with you. They want you to pick up the phone call and call them versus texting.
00:41:07
Speaker
And when we talk to people and communicate nowadays, I think we tend to downplay what we do and we shy away from like shouting out from the rooftop what our dreams are, what we're passionate about. And I just like to say to people like, you got to get over that if you want to be a successful entrepreneur. So when I'm like in a dentist chair or talking to my doctor that half of the town goes to, you know, instead of just when they ask, what do you do? Because that's what everyone asks at the beginning of conversations.
00:41:37
Speaker
So instead of, oh, I'm just a photographer, I'd say I'm a wedding and portrait photographer here in town. And gosh, I just love it so much. Like I love capturing, capturing timeless images for people. And all of my clients in Missoula are the absolute best. And then you invite the conversation of moving forward. So I'm like, are you on Instagram or Facebook?
00:42:00
Speaker
I'd love to add you. I'd love to do it. Instead of them trying to find me and right away you're making that personal connection and people love that in a small town. They're obsessed with that. That's a big thing. Be a community member. Be involved. Show who you are to everyone and don't downplay it.
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I think if you're, especially for you, one of the advantages and you play to this, which is you grew up there, right? If you've moved into a small town, there's probably some extra work involved trying to get involved in that community, but it sounds like it's just, and I think it's important in any community that you're living in, but certainly in a small town if you're building a business to figure out a way to get involved. But then also taking advantage of even
00:42:45
Speaker
you know, what could be considered a small interaction with your doctor, you know, and it's so true. I mean, like, what is the question that that most people are going to ask when they're sitting down with you or meeting with you for the first time? It's what do you do? And so just taking advantage of sort of that micro moment, so to speak, step four. So we had just previously talked about the person to person relationship. And so the next step would be to build those relationships with wedding vendors and even photographers in your area.
00:43:15
Speaker
with similar prices and similar styles. In a small town, you have this really unique opportunity to help other vendors in the area. So we all refer one another to all of our clients. Our clients are constantly asking us for referrals.
00:43:29
Speaker
because they don't want to do the work and we know everyone and it's a small town and people just assume that we know who the best and the best are in this area. So they, when you cultivate those relationships, and I did these through styled shoots, which is my next step, but through styled shoots, I was really able to reach out to specific vendors that I wanted to work with and build relationships with them.
00:43:51
Speaker
So, instead of just, hey, can I borrow your stuff? Or, hey, do you want to participate in this shoot? You do all of these extra additional over-deliver, under-promised things to these vendors that make them feel special, and they will refer you time and time again. And also with photographers. So, just really cultivating that community over-competition feeling.
00:44:14
Speaker
I can't shoot every wedding on a Saturday. I can only shoot one. And so reaching out to them, becoming their friend, just asking them to go for coffee or grab a glass of wine at our favorite place downtown and just getting to know them and where they started and building those relationships from the get-go helps them. And we just refer back and forth constantly now, years later, they're on my referral list and vice versa.
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah, I cannot emphasize enough. I'm so glad you brought that up, especially the photographer piece. Because I think, you know, I mean, of course, you want to go out and get to know other vendors who are, you know, in the same, you know, that have a similar aesthetic that would refer you they're in the same price range. But other photographers, I can't tell you how many referrals we got when we were first starting out from other photographers, like you said, they can generally shoot one wedding a weekend. And even if they have associates, that's
00:45:09
Speaker
maybe two weddings a weekend, right? So they need somebody to refer and we have a referral list as well and we still have, you know, we have pretty good search visibility and we don't shoot nearly as many weddings. You know, we're only shooting up to 10 weddings a year. And so we send out, I mean, every day we're sending inquiries out to other photographers, you know, that we've got to know and we trust that they're going to do a good job. So
00:45:35
Speaker
I think that's super important. Don't only reach out to other vendors that compliment your work, but reach out to other people who do the same thing that you do as well, especially if you're a photographer. It might not be as true for somebody who maybe a florist can do 30 weddings in a weekend. Probably not that many. But anyways, so number five was style cheats, you said.
00:45:56
Speaker
Yeah, so just getting published in like a regional or community magazine versus a larger publication. So I was never reaching for style me pretty or green wedding shoes. I mean, I loved them and followed them and I'm still obsessed. But for me, I realized my brides and
Paige's Future Plans and Resources
00:46:15
Speaker
my clients were looking at Rocky Mountain bride, which is a regional magazine. And so I was constantly trying to get on their blog posts. And I just
00:46:25
Speaker
consistently submitted styled shoots all the time to get on a regional magazine. And that's how I would say at the very beginning, I got my name out there as much as possible for shooting weddings and being a little more high end than I was with just being a portrait photographer at the beginning.
00:46:46
Speaker
Again, I think this is just great advice because so many people, they think, hey, if I'm not gonna get published by Style Me Pretty, then I'm not gonna submit at all. And there is always, first of all, there's always, I would say most of the time, there's somebody out there that will publish your stuff. But we always encourage people not to overlook the smaller, as you put it, regional blogs.
00:47:08
Speaker
Is it for a number of reasons? One, because they're serving your local clientele, you know, like everybody in your area is probably at least familiar with that publication and we have a couple around us. We have one called What's Up and it's a magazine that goes out to the Eastern Shore in Annapolis. I think they've expanded a little bit but it's a very local magazine and everybody gets one in their mailbox every so often. It just appears, right?
00:47:32
Speaker
And then on top of that, you're still building good backlinks back to your site. You know, when Rocket, you said, what was it, Rocky Mountain Broad?
00:47:40
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, when Rocky Mountain Ride, when they link back from a blog post, they link back to your site. Google knows that that's a local business linking to another local business. So another great way to build links back to your site. And again, so if you're out there and you're thinking if I'm not getting published in Style Me Pretty, I'm not getting published at all, you're missing out I think on a huge opportunity.
00:48:03
Speaker
One question about style shoots. How did you convince the other vendors to participate? You hear sometimes people are like, well, I'm just getting started and style shoots are a lot of work and other vendors know that. How did you get participation from other people in the area? I've been asked this question a lot and I love answering it. I think you have to put in a lot of work at the beginning.
00:48:31
Speaker
Again, it's not just going to come easy. And I think some photographers think that, oh, a styled suit's like just going to show up on a platter in front of me and all these wonderful vendors are going to be there. And that's not the case. So you have to go in with a plan in mind.
00:48:46
Speaker
And so I would create a mood board and have exactly what I'm wanting from them. Vendors are more likely to participate in a styled shoot that has a very specific style in mind and that you did the work from the beginning. So you're like, oh my gosh, this photographer knows exactly what she wants. This is so cool. She's saying that this is kind of new and unique and that a publication might pick it up.
00:49:09
Speaker
And so when I start out and it's all the vendors at the beginning, I did not downplay that I was new. I told them that from the gecko. I told them what I was doing. I picked a very specific publication that I was going to reach out to, i.e. Rocky Mountain Bride or Montana Bride or whatever it may be.
00:49:26
Speaker
And so you just, you know, instead of them coming to you or being like, hey, do you just want to participate in something that's elusive and you have no plan? Give them a plan, lay it out to them and allow them to just be like, yeah, that sounds great. We can do ABC. If you tell them what to do, they're more likely to do it. And so that is where I think styled shoots get tricky at the beginning if you've never done them before.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's great advice. Again, because if you reach out to a vendor that's done a style shoot before, they already know how much work it's going to do or going to be, I'm sorry. If you show that you have a plan and you're going to take on the bulk of that work, I would agree. They're much more likely to say yes. The other piece of encouragement I would give is that people sometimes say no and that's okay. We've been told no before.
00:50:18
Speaker
And again, we just went out and found other vendors and we kept on asking people. And so those things eventually happened for us. So just to review, because we got five so far, we got two more, right? We got finding a niche, a niche, filling the niche, killing the niche. I'm just going to say that every time because I like it. I just like saying it. I've never heard that phrase before. So niche I have obviously, but the find, fill, kill thing.
00:50:41
Speaker
So finding a niche, filling a niche, killing a niche, where's your market, being an active member of a community, building solid friendships with wedding vendors, including other photographers, styled shoots, getting published. What's number six? When styled shoots are getting published and they link to something, they're going to link to your website. So you got to make your website unique.
00:51:03
Speaker
I spent a lot of money at the beginning of my photography business on my website. I wanted to make it user friendly, fun, on brand. I have a ton of pink and people know that I love pink. I love light and airy photos. I just wanted to be, I just wanted my website to be beautiful. And I wanted people to think that I was a little bit higher end than somebody that's just starting out. Like, gosh, Paige is really cool. And I love her stuff. I want her to shoot my,
00:51:33
Speaker
Kids photo or my engagement session or whatever it may be and so i mean that's just really basic like spend money at the beginning on your website and realize that websites are where people do business nowadays that's where the you know foregrounds of your brand start.
00:51:51
Speaker
And so, put your time and effort and extra disposable income from photography into that versus a lens or a new camera. As web designers and strategists, we would agree. And there's definitely value in... So, do you use ShowIt?
00:52:08
Speaker
I do. Yeah, so there's definitely value in having something like a show website where you can go and you can make your own updates and all of that. But you know, one thing that always when people are trying to completely DIY their website, you know, I asked them, Okay, would you want your clients to completely DIY their their wedding photos?
00:52:25
Speaker
And the answer is, of course, no. There's just so many things that you know as a professional that your clients don't. And so that's why I think it's super valuable to go to web designers, go to experience web designers, brand designers. And even if you're starting with a template, that's okay. But you know that was designed by somebody who has user experience in mind. Again, but I shouldn't
00:52:48
Speaker
I won't let that derail our conversation because we got one more. What's the last step for somebody starting out in a small market? Again, realizing that your time and energy is finite. You can't serve everyone. Even if you're in a town of 300 people, you can't serve 50% of that community. You need to figure out who's willing to pay you determining how you can appeal to that specific audience
00:53:18
Speaker
And once I realized that in Missoula, that I couldn't serve everyone and that it's totally fine that there's all these other photographers out there, welcome to the business world where there's tons of restaurants to choose from, really honing your mindset in on your targeting your ideal clients.
00:53:38
Speaker
figuring out who they are that goes across the board i think for large cities and small towns but in a small town in particular i think you think that you can get the majority of that town to be there one and only photographer and that's just not the case like it's still true in a small town that you have a specific niche and.
00:53:57
Speaker
you cannot serve everyone. And I, Davey, had a challenge with that at the beginning. So at the beginning, I was serving way too many people, and I was overextending myself. It was really challenging. My energy was wearing very thin. And so just being aware of that at the beginning is so, so crucial for photographers.
00:54:20
Speaker
I think what's so interesting about this list, these steps are that you could take this and apply it to a bigger market as well. And I think that you would kill it in a bigger market applying these steps. And so what I mean is sometimes I think with the limitations of a smaller market, you're forced to be a better business person.
00:54:42
Speaker
Right? Like in a bigger market, if you're in the middle of DC, maybe you can get away with not really honing your niche, you know, because maybe at the end of the day, there are enough people to fill your calendar. But when you're in a smaller market, like yourself, you really have to figure out these things so that you can survive.
00:55:02
Speaker
And so I think, again, just listening to this list that you've put together, if you were to apply this to a burger market, so if you're out there and you are in a DC or a New York City or another big city, and you applied all of this that you would absolutely just, you'd mop the floor. So this has been a really, really interesting conversation. I do want to end with a non small market related question.
00:55:24
Speaker
Really, it's how you maintained and built this photography business while at the same time going through law school and then getting this clerkship. Again, I got to imagine that this isn't like a couple hours here and there type job. How do you manage both those things while maintaining your sanity?
00:55:45
Speaker
This is what everyone asked me. And it's so funny because six years later, I do have a prominent presence. And so people are asking me all the time, like, gosh, Paige, how do you do it all? Do you ever sleep? I mean, let's be real, like the hustle is real. Some nights I don't sleep. I'm a very, very good person at time efficiency. So I am a planner. I plan my weeks out and months out far, far in advance.
00:56:08
Speaker
And unfortunately, that was hard for some of my family and friends to get on board with when I started working two full-time jobs, you know, basically. And it took them a little while, but then they realized that, you know, that's the key to my success. And also implementing a lot of page time instead of working 24 seven. I remember my first day of law school, a professor said to all of us, one L starting out to not lose ourselves in school or afterward in practice.
00:56:38
Speaker
And so I took that to heart early on and continue to do so to this day. So I bring my whole heart into everything I do. I'm a multi-passionate person and I have fully accepted that. But when you're multi-passionate, I'm obsessed with everything I do and I love working a lot with things that
00:56:58
Speaker
Fulfill me, but I also know you you know you have to still conserve your energy I still want to like watch enough looks marathon every now and then and read a book for pleasure But yeah, I mean I I do do it all right now, but I haven't I have an end in sight which is great and I
00:57:14
Speaker
And also important, you know, and I think you going into this clerkship, right, it was for a set amount of time, it was for two years. So you could kind of say to yourself, this, this two years could be a hustle between the clerkship, building this photography business, but there is an end, you know, not that you're going to just be, you know, not that you're just gonna have a ton of time after it ends, but there is an end in sight.
00:57:38
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I think I can identify with lots of people that maybe have a side hustle or have to make ends meet by working on Monday through Friday, eight to five job. I mean, I I'm there like I I've been there and I get that and I everyone has bills. And so continuing to do what you're passionate about while you're working on Monday through Friday job is so important. And I think that really helps you create a successful business in the end.
00:58:05
Speaker
So, I come home and work on something that I absolutely love and it doesn't feel like work. Work feels like work, but photography is still fun even though I'm running a business. So, as this end in sight nears, you have a beginning in sight as well. What is it that is to come when this clerkship ends? You're not giving up being an attorney.
00:58:29
Speaker
Right. So the law is still something that I absolutely love. And like I said, this is a good wrap up of the podcast because I am continuing on with my legal venture in life, but I'm doing it on my own. And I have decided to open my own virtual law office to help other photographers start their businesses up and be like, be legal and feel protected. And
00:58:59
Speaker
I'm so excited about that because after these two years of a transition period, I was able to hone all of my passions into one. So I'm starting up a virtual law office. It's called the legal page, which is pretty simple. People can go find it.
00:59:14
Speaker
And I will also be doing photography as well. So my ultimate goal, Davey, is in the next year, I'll kind of transition from two full-time jobs to two part-time jobs, which make one full-time job. I'm sure in many ways that'll be a relief. So beyond going to the legal page and going to your photography website, which, right, is pagemariephotography.com? Is that? Yes. Okay, yep. So besides going there, where else can people find you?
00:59:41
Speaker
People can find me on thelegalpage.com, like you said. I'm the legal page on Instagram, page Marie Photo on Instagram. You can find me on Facebook as well under both those names.
00:59:52
Speaker
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise with us in the middle. This is the middle of the work day. So this is a lunch break for you. So I really appreciate you fitting us in. And at some point we'll have to have you come back on and talk about making sure your business is protected and legit so that you can, you can sleep well at night. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
01:00:17
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to dvandchrista.com.
01:00:39
Speaker
you