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Designing Greta Thunberg's new book with Stefanie Posavec and Sonja Kuijpers
1.1k Plays1 year ago
Stefanie Posavec is a designer, artist, and author whose practice focuses on finding new, experimental approaches to communicating data and information. This work has been exhibited internationally at major galleries including the V&A, the Design Museum, Somerset House, and the Wellcome Collection (London), the Centre Pompidou (Paris), and MoMA (New York). Her work is also in the permanent collection of MoMA. Besides her new book with Miriam, she has also co-authored two books that emphasise a more personal approach to data: Dear Data and the journal Observe, Collect, Draw!
Sonja Kuijpers runs STUDIO TERP, her one-woman data illustration studio based in Eindhoven, Netherlands. She designs (data-)visualisations for a diversity of clients such as Scientific American, Philips, as well as small institutions, companies, and publishers. Recently the Climate Book by Greta Thunberg was published, for which Sonja (re-)designed the graphs.
Experimenting with shapes and styles, she also designs her own independent dataviz and data art projects. She received an Information is Beautiful Gold Award in 2019 for her personal project ‘A View on despair’. Creating data visualisation, to Sonja, is trying to locate herself in the data, making sense of numbers with a human approach, showing insights as well as the aesthetics of information and data.
Episode Notes
Stefanie | Web | Twitter
Sonja | Web | Twitter | IIB Award, A View on Despair
Warming Stripes
I am a book. I am a portal to the universe. by Stefanie Posavec and Miriam Quick
The Climate Book, by Greta Thurnberg | Amazon US | Amazon UK
Related Episodes
Episode #187: Stefanie Posavec & Miriam Quick
Episode #2: Dear Data
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Host Welcomes & Future Plans
00:01:05
Speaker
So if you're ready to earn extra income for sharing your expert opinion on software development, engineer, hardware, software, head over to userinterviews.com slash hello to sign up and participate today.
00:01:30
Speaker
Welcome back to the PolicyBiz Podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabish. I hope the new year is off to a good start for you and your family and your friends and your work. I am really excited for the beginning of the new year. Really great podcast episode a couple weeks ago. If you didn't check it out, you really should with Vidya Settler and Bridget Cogley on their new book, Functional Aesthetics. I've got some great guests coming up.
00:01:53
Speaker
in the next few weeks. Really excited about those. I've got a new newsletter that's over on Substack now because review, well it shut down. I've been working on a variety of different longer blog posts, some bigger think pieces. I'm learning more about Tableau and I just took an R course. I'm really trying to
00:02:11
Speaker
level up my skills this year. It's the ongoing quest to just be better at the work that we do.
Interview with Stephanie & Sonia
00:02:17
Speaker
When it comes to this week's episode of the podcast, really excited for my guests. I have two guests this week, Stephanie Posovic, who you may know from the Dear Data Project and has appeared on the podcast in the past, and Sonia Kuipers, who has her own freelance studio in Europe.
00:02:35
Speaker
They teamed up to create and design Greta Thunberg's new book on climate change. And when I saw that come out and their involvement in the project, I was like, I've got to have them on the show. I've got to learn more about it. How did it all work? How did it all come together? What were all the challenges? And you're going to hear some interesting stories in particular where you should get the book, where you should buy it in the UK.
00:02:59
Speaker
or in the U.S. So make sure you listen to that part because it is actually kind of important. And it's just a really fascinating story about how all this came together and what it takes to create a book like this with so many different graphs about a really important topic of our time, perhaps the most important topic of our time. So without a delay, here is this week's episode, my conversation with Stephanie Ensign.
00:03:26
Speaker
Hey, Stephanie, and Sonia, welcome to the show. How are you both? Good to see you. Good. Fine. Good to see you. Sonia, how are you? I see you as well. I haven't seen you guys. I haven't seen, well, Sonia, I haven't seen you in what? Did we say like four or five years? Yeah, about that. Or 10 years in COVID, the COVID time? Yeah, the COVID years in between, we'll still 10, yeah. Yeah. It was fine, I guess, yeah. Yeah, it was Information is Beautiful Awards in London, where I think
00:03:56
Speaker
I think Stephanie, you and I had done a workshop that week and I was like hanging out for a while and did the IAB Awards. And yeah, that was a good time. I met your mother. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You met my mom there. Yeah. My mom has been a frequent topic of conversation on the show recently. I don't know why. So hopefully she'll like this one too. Very lovely person. Yeah.
00:04:17
Speaker
Um, well, thanks. So just for folks who are wondering, who are listening, like, what is going on? My mom does like to travel with me back in the pre COVID days. So London, she also joined me in Pamplona for, uh, Malofie. So yeah, Miami a couple of times. Yeah, she's, she's a good traveler. So mom, if you're listening, you're fun to travel with.
00:04:35
Speaker
Um, okay. So let's, let's get back on track. So, um, you both have this amazing new project out with Greta Thunberg on climate change, the designers of
Projects & Collaboration
00:04:47
Speaker
the book. And so I thought we would just talk about it for a bit. So, so maybe we could start with this, just so folks kind of know who you are. Um, just like a little quick introduction and then we could talk about the project. So maybe, uh, Sonya, do you want to start and give folks a little background?
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'm Sonia Caipus. People know me probably better as Studio Terp. That's my studio. I work as a one-woman company. And I do data-vis, data-art projects. Many data-vis for clients and more data-art projects are of own personal interest.
00:05:26
Speaker
And yeah, like you said, we met in London. That's where I received an award for my View on the Spare project, which was a data visualization on suicide numbers. So that's the sort of stuff that I create on a personal basis. And I like to do more of projects that have an extra twist. Yeah, experiment with shapes and colors. Yeah.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah. And Stephanie and I go way back, of course. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. But I guess I should say.
Design Challenges & Solutions
00:06:06
Speaker
Yeah, just a little bit. I mean, yeah, maybe because you've been on the show a few times, but maybe tell folks what you've been doing in the last year or so.
00:06:15
Speaker
Do you have some cool projects going on too? Yeah, so I guess I say I'm a designer, artist, and author. I work with data, mainly experimental data design projects, and then I also teach workshops as well.
00:06:30
Speaker
So some of the stuff that I've been doing over the past year or so includes, you know, I do a lot of art residencies, like it could mean drawing how data and samples come from a study participant,
00:06:49
Speaker
all the way through to the data researchers who end up using that data to study like medical and health outcomes like an art residency I did with a research group people like you or it could be making a participatory artwork for the welcome collection from visitors perceptions of happiness and what makes them happy
00:07:14
Speaker
to publishing a book with Miriam Quick. I am a book, I am a portal to the universe, which we've definitely talked about, and which is a book that uses itself as a measure to kind of show the wonder of the world to you. So like every part of the book from its volume, its weight, its page thickness, and more communicate data about our world.
00:07:38
Speaker
And yeah, I guess that's it. So yeah, I'm doing a lot of using data and more participatory, playful, friendly, accessible ways to connect people together and kind of to have them think about themselves and their lives and their place and their wider communities.
00:07:58
Speaker
Right. And so I can see just I mean, knowing your work, but also just from the way you both described your work, I can see how you both naturally could work well together. Because you both kind of work in that experimental different kind of shapes, not necessarily like, you know, you're kind of standard like
00:08:19
Speaker
And now there's anything wrong with it, but like the dashboarding world, kind of like you're both kind of like, like trying different forms and different things. So I can see why this, this could be a pretty amazing partnership. So I'm curious about the book. I don't have it yet. It hasn't made its way across
Impact & Reflections
00:08:34
Speaker
the pond. So I'm still waiting. So I thought we could start with how did it come about? And then what was the work like? So, um, so Stephanie, maybe you want to start and then, then we could talk about how all the kind of piece together.
00:08:48
Speaker
Uh, yeah, yeah. Um, I, yeah, I'll give some background on the project. So occasionally I will design a book for Penguin. Um, it has to be a very special book, um, because in my job previous to, uh, like working in database, I was a book cover and book designer. So I was asked.
00:09:09
Speaker
maybe six or seven months before the project truly began, if I would like to design a book for Greta Thunberg. And so I said yes, and I had to keep it a secret. But that was working under the assumption, yeah, that I would do the text and the charts because they know, you know, this is my realm. But then,
00:09:28
Speaker
When it came to it, you know, it's for her book, The Climate Book, which has I think over 100 of the top climate contributors alongside Greta. So it's like a really big, logistically complex book with lots of different people involved in lots of charts and a very, very quick turnaround. And so it was very obvious that that was not a one person job, but needed two people. And so that's when I
00:09:57
Speaker
asked Sonia to see if she would join, join the project and, you know, oversee the charts in the book. Yeah. And I will hand it over to her. So how did that work? So Sonia, you get this call. Did you just get like a mass of data and graph like drafts and you just went to work? Like what was the process of pulling all that together? Because it sounds like it's across multiple authors. So
00:10:26
Speaker
Like how does, yeah, maybe just talk about your process. Yeah, well, first I want to share that Stephanie reached out and I had to do a dance in my living room. He was Stephanie asking me to join her in this marvelous journey. And so that was the first thing that got me very excited about taking this job.
00:10:53
Speaker
Because I'm going to say it again, Stephanie, you're one of my heroes in the data of this. So yeah, that was very nice of you. With this project, you were totally
00:11:07
Speaker
You are more of a hero than me, I promise you. This is a very challenging part now. We don't need any other person in here. No, but I didn't exactly know I was coming my way at the beginning. It was just, yeah, there's this book. And I was told it was by Greta. So I was also like, okay, wow, Greta.
00:11:32
Speaker
But the actual amount and size wasn't that clear yet at that point. But I think the real thing hit me when we had this Excel file with all the graphs that
00:11:48
Speaker
that we would have to incorporate. So yeah, we had this big file with all the graphs mentioned, picture of the JPEG or whatever image they provided. And they already had some other teamwork on Illustrator files of that JPEGs. So that's when I realized, okay, I have to really...
00:12:15
Speaker
But pull hard on my graphs knowledge here.
00:12:21
Speaker
So I'm guessing that most of the authors, again, I don't have the book yet. So, but I'm guessing most of the authors are scientists, climate scientists, maybe some advocates. So I'm guessing the data is pretty dense. The graphs based on at least the economics field, the graphs aren't great. So were you primarily trying to make them look better or were you re-imagining some of them? I'm guessing like, you know, Hey, here's a line chart, but could you make something different sort of more engaging?
00:12:51
Speaker
Like where were you thinking as you started going through it? That would have been great, but the times didn't allow to really broaden anything. I think there was some small changes considering which direction a bar would go. Would it be vertical or horizontal?
00:13:13
Speaker
things like that, but not really in shapes or other ways of handling the graph because there just wasn't enough time to actually, we didn't have the data available also. So there were just these pictures and the underlying illustrator files. And so then how does the design part of this work? Because there's the design of the graphs and the design of the book. So how did you two work together to
00:13:42
Speaker
Yeah, Stephanie. Um, Stephanie is the lead here. So yeah. Um, uh, sure. And actually I just want to interject one little thing just to give you a sense of like what Sonya was dealing with. Um, so, you know, it was like a hundred, I mean, not everyone had a chart, but it's like a hundred contributors who are pulling charts from everywhere. So it could have been, uh, like scientific, you know, using some scientific software or like.
00:14:09
Speaker
charts that they really wanted to use that were pulled from, I don't know, like the Washington Post or some random source or from the IPCC report, or it was just a JPEG, or it was from PowerPoint.
00:14:25
Speaker
You know, there's all sorts of stuff, all like JPEGs, often not editable. And that's why they all had to go, you know, when Sony was talking about Illustrator files, they all had to go and be artwork and redrawn and made editable. So like they started from like.
00:14:42
Speaker
like not like really really rough quality stuff and all sorts of places all sorts of charts then that like you know those um illustrator files is what Sonya had to work with so so it was like a huge it was a huge old mess but it's also like
00:14:58
Speaker
Yeah, you know, from like an author's perspective, I can imagine it being amazing, right? Because you could just be like, I want a map. Okay, I'll take a screenshot of this thing from the New York Times. I'll take this bar chart from the Journal of blah, blah, blah. And I'll take this map from over here and just send it to you to let you go off. Like I can imagine for the author, it's terrific. But from your perspective, that that's a huge undertaking.
00:15:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I guess you're used to publishing, but before The Listener, there was an art director and then there was the editor. There was also a team in the US that I think was overseeing it as well. It was like a joint publication in some capacity. Then I think also
00:15:41
Speaker
you know, you've got like an image rights team is checking that, I guess all the rights, you know, the rights for everything is okay. And I think that also included some of the charts that some people wanted to use from various newspapers. And then there was also an editorial assistant who was doing a lot of the heavy lifting, like liaising with all of the different authors that was I think Sony is like main.
00:16:05
Speaker
um kind of like liaison with all those like a hundred different people right so so it was it was a super super complicated thing yeah a thing to figure out and then like manage um you know all these charts um but just to like yeah to give you a sense of like the the way that that worked um with the book design so i you know came up with a book design and
00:16:32
Speaker
It's never like, oh, here's a design. Let's go with it. It's probably like constant, constant, constant iterations and back and forth and back and forth, which then was sent to Greta and I guess her team. And then they approve it. You know, we get all the text and the content and then start to drop it in design from there. But what I, I had like, there's a blue that goes through.
00:16:54
Speaker
the book of Pantone Blue and some other colors. So I had to choose like kind of these overarching colors to be harmonious with this blue Pantone ink that feeds through the book and then also the typography. So I had to give that to Sonia as well as guidelines for how she should set up the chart to fit into my layout grid to ensure that everything would align and be harmonious with like, with the rest of the text.
00:17:24
Speaker
So I was just sending Sonia like, like really annoying, but I hope useful, like being like, Oh, you know, it needs, you've got two sizes of box. You can fit it. This has to be this size or this size. And things had to be fit into very, very precise.
00:17:44
Speaker
sizes, also to ensure that everything would fit in the 464 page book. So it was like, it's like a precision process. Also, like the page size change. Oh, no. And like, I don't know, there were a lot of changes. So
00:18:04
Speaker
Wow. Can I jump in here because you were saying annoying, but to me it was very helpful because I had all these graphs and this was a very helpful way of working because I had this framework that was there and I didn't have to think of all other stuff also. So it wasn't, it really wasn't annoying. It was the opposite. Yeah.
00:18:31
Speaker
But were there times or were there examples or are there examples of graphs where you're in this box and you wanna fit something in either an annotation or another data element and you just couldn't or like how did, like, can you give us an example of like where the size or the layout you had to do something different because of the actual like how it was gonna fit on the page?
00:18:58
Speaker
I think there was one map that we rotated. Do you remember, Stephanie, the legend wouldn't fit in if we, or the map itself wasn't even clear if we put it in this box size. So I think we rotated the map on the page. Oh, but you could still read it. You would still read it normally, but then the map was. Yeah.
00:19:24
Speaker
So because I think it was from, because it was the, um, like the North pole. So it didn't matter which way it doesn't matter. Right. Cause it's the North pole, right? Yeah. That's the only time where you can really do that. Yeah. So, so then when it comes to, uh, I'm interested on the, on the typography and the text in particular, because I'm guessing that a lot of the graphs were pretty scientific, like a lot of climate change journals.
00:19:54
Speaker
So how, and I guess this is first question for Sonya, like, how did you think about making the text readable for non scientists? And like, were you responsible for changing some of the words? And like, how did you think about annotating things so like, you know, normal readers could read understand it?
00:20:15
Speaker
I think it was mainly the abbreviations that were used that I changed here and there because we all know carbon symbols and things like that, but there were some that contained abbreviations and things. I had to look up myself and I'm thinking if I have to look it up, imagine what other people have to look it up.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, these were things that I checked and double checks and I think there were a lot that text that guided the access I think there were.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, there were a lot that were changed by me because I thought, why use an abbreviation? You can write it out. Right. So it sounds like there was, I mean, it sounds like there's a big team around this whole project, but did you, either of you have conversations with the different authors and like getting into the weeds of things, or was it always this kind of level of separation? And was that good or bad?
00:21:21
Speaker
Sonya, you had not direct contact, but you were able to query. No, so I had, there was a MND pet penguin who checked in with all the scientists, I guess. So if I had a question, I would write it down saying in this graph,
00:21:41
Speaker
What does this mean? Or for instance, one had an axis with, we had years on it, jumping every 20 years, but then there was one jumping, yeah, a hundred years and then 2020, 2020. And I was like, yeah, but you can do that. You have to actually show.
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah, we all know that we've all been there. So these were questions that I ask, can I change this? Or this is how I look at this. What about if I add this or take away this? Right. So now you both do client work. And so I'm curious when you're doing client work, let's go away from the book for a second, when you're doing client work in a similar sort of situation where you have
00:22:28
Speaker
I don't know your project officer or the person at the client who you're talking to, but they are pulling material from other folks at their companies. Do you like, uh, to talk to the individual analysts or the individual people? Like, so I guess I'm asking like, is this buffer person? Like would, do you prefer to have someone like that? Or do you prefer to actually like talk to the people who are actually like knee deep in the data or neck deep in the data? I guess probably. Yeah.
00:22:56
Speaker
I'll start. Yeah, of course, I would like to have a conversation with the ones that collect the data or yeah, they know what's in there and what they want to communicate and I can check if it's there and I can double check with them if there were mistakes because sometimes there are mistakes in there. An outlier doesn't have to be an outlier, it can be a typo, right? So yeah, that's what I like.
00:23:24
Speaker
to do with my with my clients but this was a yeah there was a whole different situation and i guess in this particular job it was better to have this person in between because i think there would have been a project of two years or yeah yeah
00:23:42
Speaker
I would say just that they should have had another person. I think the project would have done with one extra person to manage the hundred people. Because it was incredibly complex. And Sunya's main contact, Amandeep, was incredible. But it was such a huge project because there were image rights, there were the charts.
00:24:05
Speaker
There were text corrections, editor corrections, like sub-editor corrections for a hundred different people, including Greta and her team. Like it was 464 pages, so it was like this huge, huge book. Yeah, I guess just the management of this kind of project seems pretty
00:24:28
Speaker
Amazing. So let me ask you both done work that clearly has a meaning for you as either professionally or personally. And I'm curious when you have a project like this, which
00:24:45
Speaker
potentially has such a big impact and is clearly so important to our lives and our kids' lives and the future of the planet. Does it have extra meaning for you when you're when you're working through it? Like, I know there's always drudgery in every project, but do you feel when you able to take a step back for a second, do you feel like this is the kind of thing that you are excited to be in the field for? I guess maybe, Sonia, you can start. I don't know.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, I try to stay away from the subject matter, because yeah, it's gloomy and it's doom. So I just focused really hard on the job just to
00:25:32
Speaker
make it insightful and pretty as well, because that's always my goal. But yeah, of course, as a subject itself, climate is really a thing. And as you mentioned, for my kids, I'm really proud that I had this opportunity to work on such an important book.
00:25:59
Speaker
Yeah. How Greta has spoken before on it. I think it's truly amazing how these people continue fighting. And I am not one of these persons myself, but I am truly honored if I can help those people out. Yeah. My work. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
Stephanie, what about you? I mean, you've done work with with kids and you've done, you know, all these different types of projects. But like when you have a project like this, does it mean something extra?
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think there's some, I think the thing that's really nice about a project like this is that it, you know, I think as a designer, it's always nice to do a project that has some sort of like longevity and utility to it. Um, like, I mean, that's the beautiful thing about a book, like, uh, like a really lovely book will stick around for decades, you know, like people will keep it on their shelves and that's so different from, uh, or like be considered like a, you know, kind of a,
00:27:02
Speaker
this canonic sort of piece of literature that changes things. So to be part of that, since paper lasts a lot longer than stuff on the internet, I think that is useful, but as a reference, I think it's a really nice design project. I mean, that's why I love publishing in general, even if it is a bankless industry.
00:27:32
Speaker
Um, okay. So I'm, I'm going to ask this question. I think I already know the answer, but I'm guessing people want to know whether you got to actually meet or talk to Greta. Just her team, just for people who are listening, Stephanie and Sonia are both shaking their heads with sad faces that they didn't actually get to. Yeah. Maybe just do a shout out to her because I would really love to have an autograph in my book. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah, it was all through, um, the editor. So there, yeah, there was a little bit of a buffer and also, um, I'm pausing. I mean, because I think like one of her like main advisors or an advisor is also her father. So I think they may work on it. Like, yeah, they're like,
00:28:22
Speaker
Like he's a strong part of her team. Right. I think I'm allowed to say that. That's probably. Yeah. I mean, I've read that. I've read that about common knowledge. Okay. Yeah. I just, I'm pausing because I don't know what I'm allowed to say. Right. Yeah. But then they were in contact with, um, with the editor. So that was going to be my last question, but she said something that I wanted. This'll be my last question. So, um,
00:28:47
Speaker
Clearly for this project data and graphs are an important part of the storytelling. But lots of books people just throw a graph in there and they don't do all of this work to think about laying it out correctly or making them look consistent. And so I want to ask whether you think
00:29:08
Speaker
data visualization, at least in the publishing world, I guess we'll just stick within the publishing world, where you think data visualization is now at a point where it's almost a necessity or requirement to have graphs and charts and diagrams that look really good throughout and look consistent across the book, rather than I think the way a lot of books have graphs, they're just kind of like thrown in there. And like, it is a screenshot from the Washington Post or wherever, just sort of thrown in there. But do you think it's come to a point where
00:29:38
Speaker
there is more emphasis and a greater requirement for better graphs in books? I mean, just speaking from my experience, is I would say, well, I would say yes, and I will let Sonia expand upon it, but I'm just going to use the example of, you know, this is for Penguin Random House, this book, but also published by Penguin Press in the UK, so they
00:30:05
Speaker
do a lot of the nonfiction, and they do a lot of nonfiction, science writing, and they also, I think they have like a, they may have an Alan Lane is like their nonfiction imprint under this like, house style. And through that, I believe that they also have people who are making all sorts of charts consistent within that text design style. So
00:30:32
Speaker
I think, you know, Penguin is always really well known for their design. And, you know, I think that falls under, you know, that says the look of the chart, the styling of the charts, making sure that it's consistent with everything else is just as important. And I will hand it over to the Sonya.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's not that I do these things often. So I'm not sure if I can say something about it, but I would love to see more of it. I'm not sure because which kind of books are you referring to? I've seen things pass by on scientific publications and then I'm still not very worried on the status of, and I know they're willing, but
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah. There's still lots of steps to make there. And yeah, I hope they see this book and that they can see that it's possible. But yeah. So I like that. That's a good way to end. So it's the doom and gloom of the subject matter, but maybe the presentation will inspire some people. So hopefully we'll get some of that.
00:31:43
Speaker
Well, congrats on the book. It looks amazing. I can't wait to get it in my hands. Congrats to you both. I hope, Sony especially, I hope you get your signed version from Greta. I hope it shows up in the mail. And yeah, thanks to you both for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Yes, thanks for the invite. Thank you.
00:32:02
Speaker
And thanks for tuning into this week's episode of the show. I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you will check out both Stephanie's work and Sonia's work. And I hope you will check out the new book from Greta Thunberg. And I hope you will check out the policyvis.com blog for more tutorials and lessons on data visualization. I hope you'll check out my YouTube channel if you want to support the show. If you want to support it financially, you can head over to WinO where I have a text messaging app.
00:32:25
Speaker
service where I'll send out data visualization tips and tricks every week for a small monthly fee for like a dollar a month. You can get data visit tips and tricks to your phone if you want to share the podcast with your friends, your family, your coworkers, rate review it on your favorite podcast provider. And if you'd like to rate or review my book, Better Data Visualizations on Amazon, I'd really appreciate that. Trying to get over the hump of
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the poor binding that occurred in a couple of printings that have sort of affected the stars on Amazon. So if you want to go over and give a give a good boost to it, I'd appreciate that. So until next time, this has been the policy of his podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
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The whole team helps bring you the Policy Vis podcast. Intro and outro music is provided by the NRIs, a band based here in Northern Virginia. Audio editing is provided by Ken Skaggs. Design and promotion is created with assistance from Sharon Sotsky-Ramirez, and each episode is transcribed by Jenny Transcription Services. If you'd like to help support the podcast, please share and review it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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The Policy Vis podcast is ad-free and supported by listeners, but if you would like to help support the show financially, please visit our Winnow app, PayPal page, or Patreon page, all linked and available at policyvis.com.