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Introducing Heritage Voices - Episode 0
308 Plays8 years ago
This episode introduces the podcast, why it was created, and what you can expect. Co-host Lyle Balenquah, Hopi Archaeologist and educator, interviews host Jessica Yaquinto about her work as an ethnographer and in tribal consultation. Topics include mediating between tribes, community based participatory research, tribes' perspectives of anthropology, and the proposed Bears Ears National Monument, etc.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:05
Speaker
You are listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. The Archaeology Podcast Network is sponsored by Codify, a California benefit corporation. Visit codify at www.codifi.com.
Heritage Voices Podcast Overview
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome to the Heritage Voices podcast.
00:00:34
Speaker
Heritage Voices focuses on how CRM and heritage professionals, public employees, tribes, and descendant communities can better work together to protect their heritage. My name is Jessica Uquinto, ethnographer and founder of Living Heritage Anthropology. And my co-host is Lyle Bolenqua, Hopi, archaeologist, ethnographer, river guide, and educator.
00:01:07
Speaker
So welcome to the first episode of the podcast. Or I should say episode zero, since this is the introductory episode to the podcast.
00:01:18
Speaker
I have Lyle Bolenqua here with me today. And we're going to first start by talking a little bit about the podcast and what you might expect from it. And then we're gonna go into an interview. He's gonna interview me so you can get to know me a little bit as your host and some of the work that I've done before you hear me interview other people, including Lyle himself.
Importance of Tribal Consultation Resources
00:01:48
Speaker
So basically the idea for this podcast was
00:01:55
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that there isn't really a lot of resources out there for people that are interested in doing tribal consultation. It seems like it's really grown a lot and that more and more federal agencies are taking it seriously and expecting people outside of archeology more and more to be engaging in tribal consultation like natural resource specialists or managers.
00:02:25
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A lot of those people don't necessarily have a background in anthropology the way archaeologists do. And so I just wanted to start this podcast basically in order to help people have a little bit of background in
00:02:43
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how to better work with tribes and other descendant communities and not necessarily focused on the laws and things like that because I think that that is more out
Vision for Tribal Collaboration Stories
00:02:55
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there in the world. But just by hearing stories of tribal consultation or collaborative ethnography, indigenous archaeology and how it's
00:03:04
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done well in the past, really creative solutions that people have come to working together. And just really humanizing it, showing that there's a lot of different approaches and that you can do really, really interesting, good things with it.
00:03:25
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So what I'm thinking about for the podcast is interviewing, having different guests that I interview about themselves, their work, connections to different topics or themes.
Platform for Cultural Heritage Concerns
00:03:38
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So for example, one of our first themes will be
00:03:41
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Grand Canyon National Park. So first interviewing Janet Cohen, the tribal program manager, and then interviewing Lyle here about Hopi connections to the Grand Canyon. So looking at that topic from a couple of different perspectives. And at first I'm hoping to have about one episode a month, but ultimately it would be nice to maybe get up to two episodes a month or something like that, a little bit more regular.
00:04:11
Speaker
So my goal with this podcast too is to really be a platform for tribes, descended communities, and their nonprofits, et cetera, to be able to talk about the issues that are of concern to them about their cultural
Engagement and Contact Information
00:04:29
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heritage.
00:04:29
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And so if you are part of one of those groups or you work with one of those groups and they'd be interested in being on the air, please don't hesitate to contact me and we can do some public outreach related to those topics. You can reach me at my, I have a Facebook for my business, which is Living Heritage Anthropology. You can email me at Jessica at livingheritageanthropology.org.
00:04:59
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Or on Twitter, I'm at livingheritage. I think that's pretty much all the main platforms. But don't hesitate to reach out to me if you have any questions or suggestions for the show or if you'd like to be a guest. Is there anything that you'd like to add, Lyle, that you maybe would like to see?
00:05:24
Speaker
Just that this is a good forum to provide a lot of information about indigenous perspectives regarding archaeology and anthropology. And I encourage and invite other natives out there who are either directly involved with these fields or work with these agencies or other personnel to become involved and come to the table and say your piece.
Acknowledgments and Thanks
00:05:49
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And with that, I want to take a moment to thank
00:05:52
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Everyone who helped Lyle and I to get this podcast going and especially to thank all of the tribal members who provided their guidance and feedback and support in making this podcast possible. So a couple of quick points before we get started. First, throughout the Heritage Voices podcast, we're going to be talking about a variety of laws and using some legal terminology.
Legal Resource Clarification
00:06:22
Speaker
So if you're confused about what I'm referring to in any of these episodes, please refer to www.livingheritageanthropology.org. And there's a resources section which has links to many of the different related laws and regulations, other helpful websites, a list of relevant sources, et cetera. So basically the laws most referred to in this podcast will be the National Historic Preservation Act or NHPA.
00:06:50
Speaker
which set aside a process for federal agencies, including anything they fund or permit, to consider their impact on archaeology, on historic buildings, on places of importance to tribes and other communities, which are referred to as traditional properties. It also created state and tribal historic preservation officers, SHPOs and TPOs for short.
00:07:18
Speaker
who federal agencies must consult with on their actions during the process created by NEPA. Then the other law that will come up pretty regularly on this podcast is NAGPRA, or the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which created a process for federal agencies, again, or museums or other institutions who receive federal funding to inventory and return Native American human remains
00:07:48
Speaker
sacred objects, objects of cultural patrimony, and funerary objects to tribes, as well as the process if human remains are discovered later on federal lands. Many states also have similar laws to both NHPA and NAGPRA. So hopefully that clarifies a few, I mean very briefly obviously.
00:08:11
Speaker
These are extremely basic overviews of these laws, but the basic idea behind a couple of the laws that will come up a lot in this podcast. For other laws and regulations or to look into those two in more depth, again, please go to www.livingheritageanthropology.org and go to the resources section. Also, please let me know what resources were missing or what you would like to see that would be more helpful.
00:08:37
Speaker
So second, I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that although we talk about legal topics on this podcast, that I am not a lawyer. My guests are usually not lawyers, and even if they are a lawyer, they're not your lawyer. So please do not take this podcast as legal advice. Finally, I do want to clarify that these first four interviews occurred prior to the election.
00:09:03
Speaker
So, had they occurred after the election, there might have been some differences in conversation though. Anyway, what you hear currently. All right, back to the interview. All right. Well, do you want to get started?
Jessica's Background in Anthropology
00:09:19
Speaker
Well, I guess I'll start by introducing myself a little bit. Like we said, my name is Jessica Uquinto, and I am the owner of Living Heritage Anthropology, which is an ethnographic and tribal consultation services firm. And basically, I...
00:09:42
Speaker
Got into anthropology. You know, it's funny because, actually, I kind of grew up. My parents were always very big. They were always very interested in Native American culture, actually. And it's funny because that was not my thing.
00:10:03
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as a kid. I don't know. They always went and they, you know, went and bought katsinas and rugs and went to dances. And so I grew up doing all of that. But I don't know. It always felt a little funny to me, I guess. And then as I got older, I did this program
00:10:30
Speaker
called Amigos de los Americas, which basically, it's for high school and college-age students, and I spent eight weeks in a rural village in Panama as a high school, like between my junior and senior years of high school, just doing community service work and living with one other American in this village. And that experience completely transformed
00:10:57
Speaker
everything about me and how I saw the world and I just knew after that that I wanted to work with people from different cultures and that I wanted to make a difference in the world. That was always something that was part of my background. I'm Jewish and my family came over from Poland right before World War II and there was always
00:11:25
Speaker
this social justice focus in being raised that way, basically this idea that if you don't, that your rights are entwined with the rights of other people, and that if you don't look out for the rights of other people, that you're next, basically. So that was always a focus in my family.
00:11:52
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So coming out of amigos and then going into college, anthropology just seemed very natural to me, especially at the University of Arizona, which is where I went to undergrad. It's a very applied program. So I could work with other cultures in a way that was beneficial, as opposed to just getting knowledge to get knowledge, basically.
00:12:16
Speaker
And so at the University of Arizona, I started volunteering at the Bureau of Applied Research and Anthropology with Dr. Richard Stoffel, and then I worked for him for four years. And we worked on a wide variety of projects, ethnographic, tribal consultation, just basically looking at Native American connections to place across the Southwest and Great Basin.
00:12:44
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So, you know, whether that was working on Nellis Air Force Base or the Nevada test site, helping with travel consultation or looking at pilgrimage paths
00:12:59
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through an Air Force base to working at Onto National Monument with Hovey Zuni, White Mountain Apache elders talking about what that place meant to them and what kind of interpretation about their connections to that place they would like to see at the park. To the project that I led up, which was the Juan Batista de Anza National Historic Trail Study,
00:13:27
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which basically looked at the town of San Miguel de Orcasitas in Mexico, in Sonora, where Juan Batista de Anza took from there and the surrounding area in Sonora and Sinaloa.
00:13:44
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took settlers for the first across land route to San Francisco, to found the city of San Francisco, California, to try and get that up before the Russians came down from the north.
Cultural Continuity in the American West
00:13:59
Speaker
What was really interesting with that project was looking at the way that the people in the community, the way that their lifestyle would have been brought up or what kind of continuity in their lifestyle would have been there for the settlers. So what kind of traditions that they do today would have been brought by the settlers up to California.
00:14:26
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And there was some interesting moments, like, for example, the tribes in California, they didn't have pottery. They only had basketry. And so that was actually something that the settlers from Mexico brought up to San Francisco, because unlike what
00:14:47
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What is thought about a lot of the settlers, this was a very mixed group with a lot of indigenous heritage. And so that was a tradition that they brought up to California, actually. And what I think is really important about studies like that is it just shows the depth of history in the West. I mean, this happened in 1775. And a lot of people don't think of American history
00:15:17
Speaker
being in the West until much, much later, let alone the history prior to that of the indigenous people in the area. So it just, that study, the other studies that we did just kind of go to show the depth of history in this area, which I think is really important and often overlooked.
00:15:40
Speaker
So anyway, from there, I went up to Northern Arizona University, same as Lyle, and did my master's there. And when I was there, I did basically a combination of medical anthropology and tribal consultation work. So I worked with Dr. Lisa Hardy. She's got
00:16:02
Speaker
some really fantastic health programs in Flagstaff that she's worked on. So I worked on a substance abuse study and a food study and a health and resilience study. And then I also worked at Green Canyon National Park. And what I was doing there was I worked for the cultural resources and the tribal programs.
00:16:29
Speaker
basically gathering the ethnographic data that the park already had, and gathering that up into more of a usable format for management into a database. So basically, when projects came up, like the Fish Management Plan EA, I could go through this database and those sources and quickly pull up
00:16:57
Speaker
all information that we had so far related to fish at the Grand Canyon, which they could then use as a starting point to talk to the tribes.
00:17:09
Speaker
And then I also worked with the tribal program on some of their tribal consultation efforts, like the Backcountry Management Plan, some of their NAGPRA work, including creating their inventory and notice of inventory completion and some unexpected discoveries. And then also,
00:17:33
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on the there was some Zuni concerns related to plants with the park spire management so I was able to lead up consultation on that and go out to Zuni talk to them about
00:17:51
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There are different concerns with plants and the plants present in the fire area that they had mentioned. And then we were able to take the tribal members out to the area and talk more about plants and their concerns and things like that.
00:18:06
Speaker
After that, again, I did a brief foray back into medical anthropology. And then my husband got a job up in Northwest Colorado. And basically at that point,
00:18:22
Speaker
I realized that if I was going to do what I really wanted to do, that I was going to have to do it myself.
Interdisciplinary and Community-Focused Projects
00:18:29
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So that's when I created Living Heritage Anthropology, which so far we've been mostly working with the 3U tribes on some different projects, several interdisciplinary projects.
00:18:43
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combined archaeology and ethnographic projects with Dominguez anthropological research group out of Grand Junction mostly focusing on new trails and Then we also just got awarded an NSF grant in partnership with them and History Colorado, which they have the the SHPO
00:19:09
Speaker
office and or the State Historic Preservation Office and the museum up in Colorado. And that's looking at basically looking at Ute traditional cultural knowledge as a way to teach STEM learning or science, technology, engineering and math. So we're going to be doing some camps with Ute children or actually they're not children, they're high school students, I think with Ute high school students.
00:19:37
Speaker
about archaeology, about ethnography and ethnobotany, and with elders there providing you traditional knowledge and taking some of that, as well as other traditional practices, like building wiki up speed work, things like that, and creating an exhibit in the museum out in Montrose.
00:20:01
Speaker
to provide a wider reach for that information, and then also to provide kits that teachers can use to teach about these topics. And then another, the other really big, exciting project right now is we just got awarded a project out in the greater Cedar Mesa area, so the Monticello Field Office.
00:20:26
Speaker
just awarded us a project to start a lit review on tribal connections to that area. So this area is part of the area that a group of tribes are pushing President Obama to name as a national monument.
Support for Bears Ears Proposal
00:20:46
Speaker
So it forms part of the proposal that these tribes have put together for
00:20:54
Speaker
the proposed Bears Ears National Monument in southeast Utah. And so the first part of that is to do a lit review and then depending on future funding hopefully to continue to expand that project as well. So those are the big things that I've been up to, the big moments in the development of my career.
00:21:21
Speaker
That's a lot. That's really, really great to hear all the different diversity of projects that you have going on there up in that part of the world. Whoops. So apparently I talked a little too long there. So we'll have a quick ad real quick right now and then jump right back into the interview.
00:21:46
Speaker
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00:22:11
Speaker
All ideas are welcome, so visit ideas.codify.com today and make your voice heard. That's ideas.codify.com. What was it for you, I guess, the impetus? You said growing up as a child you weren't really into some of the things that your parents were introducing to you. What did you take out of that? What were some of the
00:22:39
Speaker
those fragments or remnants from your childhood that you can see coming out in your work today. Those little hints of your early introduction. Yeah. And that's a great question. And I think what made me uncomfortable about those experiences was that, and I, you know, I mean, at the time, it's not like I thought about it this way, but basically the commodification of culture and just, I don't know, the,
00:23:11
Speaker
I think the approach that some people have, and not that my parents had that approach, but it can be a little funny, but my parents, for example, I felt like they approached it in a way that was a lot more respectful, and they were genuinely interested in learning, and I remember they
00:23:40
Speaker
when they found out that it was cottonwood roots to make the katsinas with, they had, it turned out, I mean, they just happened to have a couple of cottonwood roots that had been laying in the sun on the side of our house for two decades, which apparently is, or I don't even remember how long, but for a while, and when they mentioned this,
00:24:04
Speaker
Someone said, well, but that's perfect because that's what we do anyway. So we went back up the next year to Hopi and brought those cottonwood roots up to my parents' favorite carver. And I do not remember his name, but it was memories like that that I really remember going into his house and talking to him and just learning from him.
00:24:32
Speaker
I remember going to Rivey as a little kid. That was probably about as different as a little city kid. That memory definitely sticks out. I remember, too, that we went to one of the dances, and they were throwing Wonder Bread into the crowd. And that was kind of the first time that I understood
00:25:01
Speaker
cultural, that sometimes those things that look like people are losing their culture are actually signs of people maintaining their culture. So basically, you know, culture changes and the important thing was throwing out food and maybe what that food looked like changed, but that the
00:25:28
Speaker
the meaning behind it was the same. And that's something that I think is a really important point, too, is that people tend to look at tribes and say, oh, you drive a truck, you're not a real Indian. And that in a lot of ways, that
00:25:50
Speaker
can be a sign more of a sign of maintenance of culture than loss of culture. And that, you know, being a Jew, for example, that doesn't look like it would have looked like 100 years ago, but that doesn't make
00:26:05
Speaker
me any less of one than my grandparents would have been. So I think that was an important distinction that I learned that I think a lot of people today still have kind of a hard time grappling with. And then, you know, when I went to, I thought I wanted to do Latin American development work. And when I went and started working with Stoffel,
00:26:30
Speaker
I realized that there's a lot to be done here within our own country. There's a lot of injustice still, and that maybe I can have a bigger impact even just by fighting these fights than by going elsewhere and fighting fights there.
00:26:52
Speaker
Let's talk about your work now, you know, in the modern day in terms of what is it about anthropology that drew you in? And then the second part is
00:27:08
Speaker
Why Native Americans? Why did you, from your academic training, again, you just mentioned some of these, you wanted to keep it local or keep it home, so to speak, in terms of where your efforts are focused at. But what do you hope to help in, or what is your focus in your work working with Native tribes?
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I think that... Why Native Americans? Because it's a little shocking.
00:27:52
Speaker
You know, it was, I think, a little shocking as a child and shocking still all of the time today to see how much inequality there is within this country and how much injustice is still happening with regards to tribes. And so,
00:28:16
Speaker
I think that if we don't address the things in our own backyard, how can we move on and work elsewhere?
Inclusion of Native Voices in Heritage Protection
00:28:27
Speaker
Plus, I mean, there's just something special about these places that I grew up and that I visited, and I think that
00:28:40
Speaker
making sure that the Native American voices heard can help protect those places in a lot of ways.
00:28:48
Speaker
And I think my focus particularly is I'm a really big advocate of community-based participatory research, ensure that the community's voice itself is heard throughout the whole process, that information goes back to the community, that the community is getting something tangible and something helpful to them out of it.
00:29:14
Speaker
also a form of empowerment or you know ultimately making my job obsolete would be would be very lovely you know that that really ultimately it would be great if these efforts if we're able to come through the community instead of instead of through outsiders man you're asking me hard questions what
Modern Anthropology and Native Collaboration
00:29:42
Speaker
do you see as a
00:29:46
Speaker
you work with, you mentioned some federal agencies in there. Do you, and I think you mentioned in your introduction there, there's an upswing or maybe a more positive trend towards being proactive for these federal agencies. Do you think that is a result of the climate or the environment of anthropology changing with how students are trained and do you also feel that
00:30:17
Speaker
that's a result of Native Americans given more opportunity to come to the table. So do you think, you know, I guess I'm thinking of the old school era, so to speak, of anthropology and archaeology, where it was kind of a straight science.
00:30:34
Speaker
kind of deal and very little interaction with the folks that were being studied. So how do you view the environment of training new and upcoming or students in archaeology anthropology? How is that affecting interactions with native communities? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a hugely important point. I think
00:30:58
Speaker
I'm not sure I've ever thought about it that way. But I think that's true. I think that I mean, because we're clearly seeing more of a shift towards openness to including Native Americans and having that voice there, more of a respect for tribal sovereignty, I'd say. Although, you know, then you always see the other side. But but I do think that probably anthropology had a large
00:31:28
Speaker
a large influence there. And maybe it's just that the longer that you work with people, how can you keep thinking that they don't have a voice and that they don't?
00:31:40
Speaker
that that voice shouldn't be shared. So maybe I feel like the more you collaborate, the more you want to collaborate, the more you give voice, the more you want to give more voice, just because I think anthropologists have seen through these collaborations some really interesting and exciting and creative solutions too, not just Native Americans sharing their story, but sharing their perspectives as the original land managers.
00:32:09
Speaker
that, for example, one example that I love that I wasn't a part of, but on the Grand Canyon, there was damage being done to some petroglyphs, and Park Service is thinking about how to fix this and what do they do? They stick a whole bunch of giant, very prickly cactus in front of the petroglyphs, and sure enough, people stopped messing with them, and that was,
00:32:37
Speaker
based on tribal input. And so I think, you know, the more you get these kind of creative solution moments that the more you want to collaborate and that kind of moves up the chain as those people that were collaborating move up in the hierarchy.
00:33:01
Speaker
Also I think that the federal agencies recognize, and this is a point that I don't see pointed out very often, but that tribes and tribal lands affect their lands as well.
00:33:16
Speaker
tribal policies affect federal policies. So for example, at Grand Canyon, it's surrounded by reservation on a lot of different sides, and those reservation policies affect the visitors to the park. And so I think a lot of people see
00:33:37
Speaker
tribal consultation as a one-way street or almost like, oh, look, we're humoring these people. But if it's done right, it's really valuable for everybody. And yeah, that probably that probably does stem from from that shift in anthropology.
Challenges in Balancing Tribal and Federal Interests
00:33:55
Speaker
Although, I mean, you get the credit for saying it because I didn't think about it until you said it. What are some of the, you know, you talk about working with the different tribal groups
00:34:06
Speaker
A lot of times there's differing perspectives from different tribes about one issue. How do you as the ethnographer working for one tribe, what is the, I know there's just got to be some difficulty in advocating for one tribe because they're more or less maybe employing you or you're working more directly with them. Is that hard to navigate in terms of
00:34:32
Speaker
how do you reconcile the differences between tribes and where is your boundary in terms of how much you get involved in their politics? Right. Right. That's a great question. And that was one thing that I saw when I was at Grand Canyon that I was really hopeful about was that it seems like more and more the tribes are working together on things, that there's a recognition that
00:34:59
Speaker
if they work together that they have more power basically and and that I mean at one point we were there was a disagreement happening between some of the tribes on one of the issues and they actually said you know what we need to stop we need to meet separately we need to reach a conclusion and then we will tell the park what our joint conclusion is and that was
00:35:23
Speaker
I think a really powerful moment and that's what they ended up doing. And I would hope and I'd like to see more of that in the future because, I mean, we didn't want to pick between tribes. You know, that's not, nobody wins in that situation. So that was a really hopeful moment there. And, you know, in other projects, I've seen how
00:35:53
Speaker
Most of the time, different tribes' stories seem to actually fit together pretty nicely in a lot of ways, where looking at the work that we're doing up in Cedar Mesa, for example,
00:36:09
Speaker
There was a project just done up in Canyonlands and Arches and they were looking at basically the utes and the Paiutes saying, we've been here, we've come from Fremont. And the Hopis saying, we came up and we were up there for a while and then we came back down. So we also came from Fremont. And basically those stories don't really conflict.
Reconciling Tribal Perspectives
00:36:33
Speaker
in a way that I think people sometimes make them conflict that they can both be descended from the free months and have that connection to each other. And that's something actually Lee mentioned the other day when he was up in Cortez. He gave a public talk and he talked about working with the youths and how their stories fit together. There was one case where we were working with a federal agency and
00:37:03
Speaker
Basically, they wanted us to use one tribe's interpretation to cancel out another tribe's interpretation. And we said, we're not going to do that, first of all. And they insisted. And so we went to that tribe that they wanted.
00:37:21
Speaker
it canceled out and we got further data to back up and what they said and at that point they wanted a word document of our report and we said we're not going to do that and basically we ended up having to take it to
00:37:41
Speaker
higher levels in that federal agency and it was dropped. And so we didn't have to cancel out that one tribe story. But yeah, I mean it can be tricky. But I think one thing to remember is that
00:38:02
Speaker
There's diversity in all groups. So a lot of times people go, oh, this tribe, they say different things about this. And so that means they don't know what they're talking about.
00:38:15
Speaker
And I think it's important to recognize that that means that they know what they're talking about. Because just like with Americans, if you were to talk to men and women, you'd get different answers. If you were to talk to different people within society or different places, you'd get different answers. And that doesn't mean that I'm not authentically American.
00:38:35
Speaker
It just means that I have different perspectives within that group. And I think that the same applies to tribes and it applies between tribes that it's okay for people to have different perspectives. And that shows the strength of culture, not the weakness of it. Okay, so it's time for our last commercial break. We'll be right back in a moment.
00:39:05
Speaker
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00:39:45
Speaker
you see yourself playing a mediator role quite a bit in terms of mentioned different different perspectives and so how do you how do you what is your if you if you be yourself as a mediator in some regards how does that play out in terms of your work I do see myself as a mediator usually
00:40:12
Speaker
I mean, basically, for example, let's take working at a park. Your job is to represent that park. But at the same time, you're not doing your job if you're not representing the tribes to that park. And in fact, you probably end up doing more of that than representing the park to the tribes just because I feel like
00:40:40
Speaker
In a lot of ways, the tribes tend to have a better understanding of the way that the federal government works than vice versa, just because tribes, in a sense, they have to walk in both worlds, whereas federal agency people
00:41:00
Speaker
generally haven't had to do that as much. And so you have to give generally a lot more background knowledge and not, I mean, that is definitely changing. And I think that there's a lot more awareness out there, but yeah, I think mediating a lot of it is just trying to provide education sometimes over and over and over and over again.
00:41:26
Speaker
But there's always, yeah, there's always that mediator role. And I mean, that's true in life too, but definitely in this type of work. You talked about some of your work up in the Bears Ears area and the preliminary efforts you were doing to help the agencies up there.
Thoughtful Implementation of Bears Ears Monument
00:41:46
Speaker
There's some tribal support for this initiative, the Bears Ears.
00:41:51
Speaker
A lot of it and there's also some opposition from some native groups up there in terms of the locals that are not in favor of the monument itself. What is your hope for that initiative? That's a big question. So I just want to clarify first that this is just my personal opinion and that I
00:42:21
Speaker
I'm not representing anybody with this answered. This is just my personal thoughts and opinion.
00:42:30
Speaker
Obviously, I'm going to back the tribes and the tribal governments on that one. I think that that area needs protection, and I hope that with a national monument that it would get more of that. I understand the concerns that
00:42:52
Speaker
opening it up to be a national monument without that additional protection could cause additional problems. So I would hope that if it was nominated that it would really be given a lot of thought and done in a way that that area is really protected.
00:43:11
Speaker
I understand also why there would be concerns. I know one of the big concerns from tribal members is about wood gathering, which is really important to their life. I mean, keeping warm in the winter is important. And I understand why, even though the proposal would not
00:43:39
Speaker
The way it's set up now would not restrict that wood gathering. But I understand why there's that hesitation there, because only just now, for example, are tribes really being able to gather in national parks. I can see why there would be a hesitancy about, are we really going to be able to do our traditional activities here? Are we really going to be
00:44:02
Speaker
able to do wood gathering. So I guess what I would say would be that I definitely support the tribes in this monument that they're proposing, and I would just like to see their voice continued throughout to make sure that these concerns within those tribes are addressed.
00:44:29
Speaker
I guess maybe take us in another direction here. Would you identify yourself as an ethnographer? That's a good question. I mean, yes, because I do ethnography. I know that can be a pretty unpopular thing when you're working with tribes.
00:44:55
Speaker
anthropologists have a pretty bad reputation on a lot of reservations. They've done a lot of damage, which is not what I want to do for sure. So maybe an applied ethnographer would have less of that connotation, hopefully.
00:45:15
Speaker
Yeah, kind of a trick question there for you. You know, the second part to that is, you know, you talked about working with the tribes and getting them to become more involved in the type of work you do as, quote unquote, an ethnographer. Do you think it is necessary for there to be a non-native involved in this work?
00:45:44
Speaker
particularly if you're dealing with more than one tribe. That's kind of a, again, goes back to that mediator role, but somewhat of an impartial voice. And do you think that you feel like your presence in dealing in some of these issues is a benefit, or does it have some obstacles there that may go both ways?
00:46:04
Speaker
I see what you're getting at. You did like a whole circle there. I like that. Okay. Yes. I do think that, well, I think anytime you can have a diversity of perspectives, you are going to improve your work.
Combining Outsider and Insider Research Perspectives
00:46:21
Speaker
So I think that's one thing that I like about community-based participatory research is you can have the more academic, traditional perspective mixed with the cultural perspective. And I think when you do that, you just get such a greater depth than you would get from one or the other.
00:46:40
Speaker
So for example, there's things that as somebody that lives the culture, you're not gonna see. Like you're just, because you're living it, you don't, and that someone from the outside might see. But I might see something on the outside and tell you about it and you're gonna say to me, no. Like you've got that all wrong, this is why.
00:47:03
Speaker
So I think when you bring the two together, you just get a depth that you just can't get with one or the other. I guess my concern, though, is that right now it's still so heavily weighted on the outside ethnographer side. And so I would like to see that ratio become a lot more even.
00:47:32
Speaker
But yeah, I think that mediator role, that outside perspective has a place, but it just needs to be in conjunction with the insider voice.
Youth and Elders in Cultural Transmission
00:47:43
Speaker
When would you like to see yourself in 10 years? Oh, am I interviewing for a job? You know, that is a great question. When I started this business two years ago, I don't know that I,
00:47:59
Speaker
saw myself being where I am right now. And obviously, I mean, I'm really happy. It's taking really excited places, taking me really excited places. That's not really exciting places. But one thing that I particularly have always been interested in and would love to do more of is working on the type of projects that you mentioned, which is
00:48:27
Speaker
Combining youth and elders so basically more of that experiential learning like you're talking about on the river Providing opportunities for youth and elders to connect to to learn from each other to have that a place for that cultural transmission to take place and
00:48:49
Speaker
So one idea that Dr. Van Vlack, who I'm working with on that Cedar Mesa project, she and I have been interested in potentially pursuing is basically you elder traditional cultural property mapping type projects, where you have youth who you're training in GIS or Google Maps or whatever format to do mapping.
00:49:16
Speaker
archaeology or ethnography or any of those skills may be all combined. And you have them go out with elders. So there's both. There's a lot of different aspects to that. There's youth empowerment, there's some of the skills training, cultural transmission, cultural preservation. And I personally always think that
00:49:39
Speaker
I always really particularly like projects that focus on people's connection to place. And I think that mapping is a good way of focusing on that. And I think it provides
00:49:55
Speaker
It makes it a little easier to on the elders when they have something specific that they're talking about, a specific place. But that's one type of project we'd like to pursue interested in potentially looking at climate change impacts as well. I don't know. I'd like to just really work with a bunch of different tribes in a bunch of different places and keep learning and growing.
00:50:25
Speaker
Talked about starting maybe a nonprofit branch, different things like that. Oop, yeah, I think we're out of time. Yes. But thank you, Jessica, for sharing some of your history and what you do and what you'd like to see and some of the obstacles you face as an ethnographer working with tribes.
00:50:47
Speaker
You know, I'm sure there's a lot of beneficial things that folks can learn in terms of how do you do this type of work. So maybe another time for another subject for another talk.
00:50:59
Speaker
Yes, for sure. Thank you, Lyle, for interviewing me. Man, it's hard being interviewed. This is a good learning moment for me as an ethnographer. The other side of the coin, the other side of the microphone. Exactly. All right. Well, thank you. Sure. Thank you.
Cross-Promotion with 'Go Dig a Hole' Podcast
00:51:20
Speaker
So if you enjoyed today's episode, also go check out my episode on the Go Dig a Hole podcast.
00:51:27
Speaker
which provides much more specific examples and advice to archaeologists on working with tribes. The Go Dig a Hole podcast focuses on providing guidance for people who are just getting started in the field of archaeology, so students, early career archaeologists, and also focuses on how to make archaeology more inclusive and engaging for different groups. So if those are topics that you are interested in, you should go check out the show. Thanks.
00:52:04
Speaker
for listening to the Heritage Voices podcast. You can find show notes at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com forward slash Heritage Voices. Please subscribe to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, or the Google Music Store. Also, if you like the show, please share with your friends or write us a review. If you have any questions, comments, or show suggestions, please reach out to me at Jessica at Living Heritage Anthropology
00:52:33
Speaker
Or you can find me on Facebook through Living Heritage Anthropology or on Twitter at LivingHeritageA. As always, thank you to Lyle Blanquot and Jason Nez for their collaboration on our
00:52:57
Speaker
This show is produced by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle and edited by Chris Sims. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.
00:53:20
Speaker
Thanks again for listening to this episode and for supporting the Archaeology Podcast Network. If you want these shows to keep going, consider becoming a member for just $7.99 US dollars a month. That's cheaper than a venti quad eggnog latte. Go to arcpotnet.com slash members for more info.