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Spider-Man Month: Spider-Man in the MCU
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In this episode, Satsunami and Andrew take on the most recent iteration of the web crawler. Does Tom Holland succeed in his portrayal? Or does the inclusion of the Marvel Cinematic Universe hold back the friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man? Let's find out!
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Transcript
Introduction to Spider-Man Month
00:00:01
Speaker
Who am I? You sure you want to know? The story of my life is not for the faint of heart. If someone said it was a happy little tale... Uh, Satsu? Yeah? What are you doing? Nah, thanks. Anyway, welcome to Spider-Man month.
Focus on Tom Holland's Spider-Man Trilogy
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatanami. My name's Satanami and joining me for a very exclusive deal is none other than the one and only Webslinger himself, Andrew. Andrew, thanks for stopping by.
00:00:42
Speaker
Thanks for having me. Looking forward to talking about the final trilogy in the Spider-Man franchises, the Tom Holland, John Watts films. Can you believe it's been three episodes? Now, this is our third episode on this month. Where is the time going? It's been absolutely flying by. We've been enjoying taking a look through each of these movies for better and worse in some cases. I'm excited to wrap up this month's content.
00:01:10
Speaker
I'm just laughing at anybody looking at our watch list for films recently. It's just like Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Man. Man, these guys really love Spider-Man.
00:01:21
Speaker
they watch as Spider-Man on Wednesday? What, no, Batman? No, Captain America? It's just like, no, Spider-Man, get out! But yeah, as you said, we're going to be talking about quite possibly one of the most interesting and quite honestly ongoing aspects of the Spider-Man franchise, that of course being the Tom Holland era of Spider-Man within the MCU.
Spider-Man's Evolution in the MCU
00:01:44
Speaker
And I've got to say, when we started talking about this franchise, we started talking about how in 2002 we had Spider-Man as kind of an isolated hero. You know, he wasn't doing any crossovers with the Avengers or anything like that, or the X-Men, or the Fantastic Four. We'll talk about that one day maybe. But eventually, in around, I want to say about 2016, but it could have been announced earlier,
00:02:11
Speaker
because before we go on though, do you want to talk a little bit about the background for this period of the MCU, or rather of Spider-Man? Yeah for sure. So it'd been pretty recent that we'd had the Andrew Garfield films, so I don't think that there was that much of an expectation previously that we'd be seeing Spider-Man again.
00:02:32
Speaker
Coming off a bit of a period of disappointment with the Andrew Garfield films, whether that's warranted or not, that's up to you to decide. But we've been having a very successful run with the MCU and bringing characters in. And there was a clamour, a clamour to see Spider-Man be part of this. But no, no, no, the big cats at Sony won't let Marvel use all of its toys. So they had to make do with what they had. But Spider-Man being probably only behind maybe Batman in terms of popularity regarding superheroes.
00:02:59
Speaker
was always going to eventually play with these Marvel characters. And one of the most famous comic runs was Civil War, in which Spider-Man was a very important figure. And so it was very appropriate that in 2016, the Captain America movie, which followed off from the Age of Ultron, which also was very poorly received, Captain America Civil War came out. And there was a lot of hype around it because people knew that a certain Spider-Man was going to make an appearance.
00:03:27
Speaker
And we didn't know if this was going to be a full integration of Spider-Man into the MCU or how it was going to be cameo, how it was going to work. But I ended up showing that Spider-Man worked so well among these other characters and I was a very different Spider-Man than we'd seen before.
00:03:45
Speaker
We had the quips of the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, but felt a lot more fitted to the MCU and its style. And so following the success of that, we then got the Sony Marvel collaboration of Spider-Man Homecoming, which featured characters from the MCU in addition to our Spider-Man characters that we know and love and some new ones.
00:04:07
Speaker
It is funny you say that this was practically coming off the heels of The Amazing Spider-Man 2 which of course came out in 2014 and Captain America Civil War came out in 2016. So it was like a two year gap between seeing two iterations compared to the five year gap between Spider-Man 3 and
00:04:28
Speaker
the Amazing Spider-Man, but do you actually remember how negative people were when the first teaser came out? Because just looking to set the scene, there's a moment in Captain America Civil War where the two sides clash together in an airport and
00:04:44
Speaker
Of course, they released a teaser trailer where Spider-Man stole spoilers for 2016's Captain America Civil War, but he stole the Captain's shield and then he was holding it. And there's only words where, hey everyone, you're on quite a high-pitched voice, quite immature. And do you remember how negative people were towards that initially?
00:05:04
Speaker
No, I actually can't remember that now. Well, several years into the future now, and I've seem to have forgotten the reception at the time. Well, when I say negative, I mean negative in the scale of a superhero film. It wasn't like people were marching on the street saying, not my Spider-Man, bring back Sam Raimi.
00:05:21
Speaker
He's a menace, the one G. Jonah Jameson cosplayer. But it was interesting to see the mix between fans because people like, as she said, it's like, oh, what is the MCU going to do with
Spider-Man's MCU Appearances Overview
00:05:32
Speaker
him? How is he going to be incorporated into what was becoming a fully fledged
00:05:37
Speaker
crossover world is probably the best way to describe it. And of course, I think as soon as people saw Civil War they thought, oh this is actually not bad, and he wouldn't have his own film until 2017, and of course we've got Spider-Man Homecoming which
00:05:52
Speaker
We will get into the core trio, but to kind of set the scene, the films that he featured in outside of his own Spider-Man films, Homecoming, Far From Home, and the critically acclaimed No Way Home, of course. He was also in Avengers, Infinity War, and Endgame, which, spoilers if you haven't seen the film, feel free to skip a couple of seconds ahead, but he is one of the emotional cores of that film, like a side character in the grand scheme of things.
00:06:41
Speaker
I'll just leave you going. Yeah, I think that's interesting, Andrew. Yeah, very good. Yes, yes, yes. This is probably going behind the curtain a wee bit here, but that's always how I feel whenever I'm recording on Zincaster. And of course, Zincaster splits up the audio track, so it splits up my one versus your one. So whenever I'm going to import my audio track, it sounds as if I'm just talking to myself.
00:06:50
Speaker
I'm not feeling so good, Satsunami.
00:07:03
Speaker
were just very long pauses. So what do you think, Andrew? Yes, yes, I agree with that kind of thing. Oh god, that's exactly what it'll be like. But going back to Spider-Man and these films, Game is only really a bit part. He does play a relatively key part in it. He's not just an extra. He's not like a cameo or anything. He does. Maybe he's more of a cameo in Civil War because they wanted to properly introduce him in Homecoming.
00:07:29
Speaker
coming but with Infinity Ward and Endgame there was a lot going on and as you said we had that very emotional, I'm not feeling so good Mr Stark as I get snapped into oblivion but it was quite interesting to see how people were warming up
Character Development and Challenges
00:07:44
Speaker
to him. Would you say that was the case? At least in the early days of this run that people were slowly starting to come to terms with just the fact that we had a new Spider-Man and he was going to be a part of this franchise
00:07:57
Speaker
I do think that people were enjoying him. I don't think people are quite sold yet until probably Homecoming. Homecoming certainly sold him for me. I think he did for me. I don't know what the general consensus was at the time, unfortunately, I can't recall that, but I was pretty sold on his Spear Parker and his Spider-Man after Homecoming.
00:08:15
Speaker
And I think only after that, I think he did very well in the role. I think he was great in the Avengers movies, the Infinity War and Endgame. And then in Far From Home, I thought he performed well. And I think he set himself up as a very strong character in the MCU and one that people kept kind of wanting to come back. And I think I'm personally quite excited for the next edition whenever that comes.
00:08:33
Speaker
And what's quite interesting about this particular run, and that's something we will get into probably later on in the episodes, but in the Sam Raimi films we see Peter Parker start off as a high school student and I use that very loosely considering he looks like he's in his mid-30s and they all do.
00:08:51
Speaker
and then of course it transitions into Peter going into adulthood and everything and it's kind of the same with the Mark Webb films like he goes from being a teenager into young adulthood but for these particular films they really keep him and obviously we'll get to it when we talk about No Way Home but they really keep him
00:09:12
Speaker
as a teenager which is quite interesting.
Teenage Portrayal vs. Adulthood in Spider-Man
00:09:14
Speaker
They still keep him in school, he's still quite immature, he's finding his feet as Peter Parker but it is quite interesting that they never really had that transitional period and it's something that we'll have to obviously consider when we're going to be comparing this to the other two films because it's not bad, it's not a bad choice, it keeps it very consistent but at the same time you kind of think like obviously they have a timeline and everything they have to adhere to with the other films
00:09:42
Speaker
but see before we go into it though, see before we talk about the good, the bad and the amazing haha Spiderman joke. I put out a tweet earlier today and I was asking people to give their opinions on Spiderman and the MCU and I thought this is probably going to be a very cut and clear case here. People are going to say, oh I love
00:10:04
Speaker
Spider-Man. I love Tom Holland and the MCU. It's going to be a close case here. But what I found was quite interesting. So, Andrew, are you interested in hearing a couple of opinions on this run? No. Other than my own, of course.
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'd love to hear what the fine folks on Twitter have to say. Yeah, because you get a choice of this one. You don't get a choice of my opinions. The first comment that we got was from reedwatchdnf, who says, he's adorable, followed by a gif from The Amazing Life of Gumbo of him collapsing, saying it's too adorable. That is not something I can comment on.
00:10:42
Speaker
save it. Fair enough. Sean Castor says I love it. I love how this trilogy will set up the next, which again, these are the kind of thoughts that I thought would be mainly prevalent. But then we get to the next one from a user called T. Rex, spelt T-E-A, Rex, which by the way, I found absolutely amazing, just pointing that out there, who says the movies are forgettable to me, but Tom Holland is a great Peter Parker. I think I'd rather see him get a
00:11:09
Speaker
a small series run playing adult Peter, working for G Jonah Jameson and running around town taking pictures and taking care of crime. Give him a Luke Cage slash Daredevil type run. Before I go on, what do you think of that?
00:11:26
Speaker
I think if they do in the same kind of format that they've done a lot of the other MCU Disney Plus shows, rather than T-Rex had brought up the kind of Netflix run, which I'm not as big a fan of in most cases. I don't think it was, most of those were done particularly well and maybe like a 50-50 split. I know a lot of people have criticism about it, but I've quite enjoyed all of the, uh, the Disney Plus Marvel TV series. And I think if they did something like that, then I wouldn't be against it, but I don't necessarily agree with the fact that they're forgettable. I think they are enjoyable movies and I'm, I will get into it more across the episode, but I think they are very strong contenders.
00:11:56
Speaker
their stories don't stand out as much as some of the other editions, because they aren't quite as wacky. But I think in the grounded world that they live in, they are not forgettable. I think they are quite memorable. Oh, you're going to love these next few tweets then. Oh, okay.
Mixed Reviews and Audience Opinions
00:12:11
Speaker
Good friend of the channel review yourself has said, standard popcorn fodder, nothing special in my humble opinion. No Way Home was elevated by the legacy cast, but overall it was decent, with some memorable moments but nowhere near Spider-Man or Spider-Man.
00:12:26
Speaker
too, which I have to say, very spicy take. Review it yourself, very spicy take, but we will definitely deep dive into talking about No Way Home in particular because I feel as if out of the three Spider-Man films that we've got to talk about, that's definitely the one that will probably cause the most conversation. Yeah, I think that's a fair comment. The first one and probably the third one will have the most to say about it. I don't have too, too much to say about the second.
00:12:52
Speaker
Yeah, same to be honest. Shoot the Flick says, he is the best of both worlds. He is really believable as both the nerd Peter Parker and the superhero Spider-Man. Adam Mock says, time to be contrarian. I find him to be a whiny iteration who can't do much without Mr. Stock. Actual pronunciation. Magic suits.
00:13:12
Speaker
Also, MJ and Ned are not that fun, they're funny. Somehow this version even made Doctor Strange into a buffoon. That is definitely one I want to come back to in the main discussion because that is quite an interesting take. And I'm not saying it's wrong or anything that's really interesting that Adam says this because there were a lot of people who called Spider-Man in this era
00:13:34
Speaker
Iron Man Jr. and it's something that I think the fans adopted as well. They called him Stark Jr. because he depended more on Tony Stark and Iron Man as opposed to his own thing, but we'll get onto that for sure. Talking with Smack, the podcast is best cinematic interpretation of Spider-Man, but it's still a flawed interpretation. Marvel needs to figure out a way to let Peter have adventures on his own without forcing teammates on us.
00:14:00
Speaker
They also need to stop ending each movie with the concept of, and now he's truly Spider-Man. I really want to come back to that point because there's a lot I agree with there, but we will get onto that. Starter Quest podcast says it has the second best depiction of Peter Parker and the second best depiction of Spider-Man. First for Peter Parker is Maguire and first for Spider-Man is Garfield, which seems to be quite universally agreed. This is as close as we get to the full package.
00:14:28
Speaker
It's not easy for a single actor who can play both the fortune in the chat.
00:14:35
Speaker
I love it. It's good. That is really funny. Perpetual cinema says, a strong show of both sides of the character who connected well with the larger ensemble. His third film, though, was a massive fail as it chose lazy nostalgia in place of the central theme of the trilogy. Again, that's another really interesting one that we welcome back to when we discuss No Way Home in particular. And last but not least, we have Destro,
00:15:02
Speaker
who says, I like him in general though they are the MCU movies I return to the least. I didn't like how every movie became an origin movie such that he was always reset. My favourite Peter in comics is adult work broke Peter yet we keep going back to high school. Why? And why indeed? Well they just jump into it and get into the good, the bad and the perplexing as it were of this run. Yeah I think that's a good place to sort of jump in and start talking about these movies.
00:15:31
Speaker
Without any further ado, you guys know the drill by now, we will be right back after these messages. Welcome to Chatanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime in general interest. Previously on Chatanami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:15:55
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:16:21
Speaker
Life moves pretty fast, and it's always on the go world that we find ourselves in, it's becoming ever harder to pause and reflect on what we see. Yet if we don't, we miss the opportunity to experience the things that could truly change our lives.
00:16:35
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The little part of inspiration aims to be that opportunity, to stop and savour not only the events around us, but the people, the experiences, the sights and sounds. Through these inspiring stories and poems of love, redemption and change, take a moment to really see all the inspirational treasures that are present. Inspiration is all around us. All we have to do is look.
00:17:05
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zencaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zencaster comes in. Before I met Zencaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low
Personal Cinema Experiences with Spider-Man
00:17:20
Speaker
-quality, one-track audio waves.
00:17:40
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
00:17:51
Speaker
Before we go on and start to talk about the main characters and things and the run as a whole, did you actually see this film in cinemas? I did. I had not seen either of the amazing Spider-Man movies at the cinema because I didn't seem to really have any kind of interest in that series at the time when they came out. But following Civil War, where I was interested in this new Spider-Man, I wanted to give it a shot, I thought, yeah, I was doing my summer job where I was working down in England and I had some free time. So I thought, yeah, I want to go to the local cinema and check us out.
00:18:21
Speaker
out. And it was like the nicest cinema I've ever been to that gave me a brownie and like a cup of tea while they watched the movie and there was like no one else there. It was like the weirdest experience but it was very lovely and you're like on a couch watching the film. So I highly recommend that experience to anyone who wants to watch these films. That sounds amazing to me. It was really good.
00:18:38
Speaker
on my free day I went and watched that, had a lovely dinner and had a drink. So yeah, I have a very positive experience of watching this movie because I've had a lovely day. Yeah, I don't have the same experience because, no, just because I didn't see it in the cinema, nothing to do with the cinema going experienced as a whole, which don't get me wrong, that's a whole new episode in itself. But yeah, no brownies in Scotland for Odeon or his showcase or anything like that. But yeah, joking aside, I think
00:19:05
Speaker
This was around the time I had a bit of Marvel fatigue. This is going to sound very controversial considering we are talking about Spider-Man, but although I do like superheroes, I wouldn't say I'm a massive superhero fan in the traditional sense.
00:19:21
Speaker
You know, it's like I wasn't running to the cinema for every iteration to be like, oh, when they see what Thor's doing, or oh, when they see what Captain America's doing. And I saw the occasional one every so often, but when it came to about 2016, I remember Civil War came out. I didn't see that in the cinema. I think I actually saw that a couple of years later when you got me the DVD for it. I did, right? I didn't even know that. Yes. I'm sure it was you that got me the DVD. If not, then somebody's just dropped it through my letterbox. Probably Marvel-like. Go on.
00:19:51
Speaker
make the episode. Just like the one at this time's Watch Me, XO. Yeah, we're in the pocket of Big Marvel. Pretty much, yeah. The mouse is standing behind me with a gun, so that dark image aside. Aha, make the episode!
00:20:04
Speaker
this is sponsored by Disney+. But seriously, if there's anyone from Disney or Marvel listening, please. No, see us and please sponsor us. We have bills to pay, please. I will praise any film that's coming out. I have so many other lawsuits to settle. The Red Panda lawyer right now is just glaring in the corner. He's like, don't you start.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, the panda lawyer doesn't like me. I don't use him for my other law cases and usually I'm suing him, so... Last time you met him they just said, I quit and big bold cartonulators. Yeah, he held up a sign. What, like wily coyote? Yeah. I quit. Dropped out of existence. Bet we saw it back to Spider-Man.
00:20:41
Speaker
rather than illegal troubles. When Civil War came out, I watched it a couple of years later and I'm not going to lie, it's only been a year or two since I actually watched Infinity Ward in Endgame on Disney Plus. As I said, I think most of them are well done and everything, but I wasn't enamoured by it, I wasn't running to the
Spider-Man: Homecoming Plot and Villains
00:21:02
Speaker
cinema to see it. Obviously the last film
00:21:04
Speaker
that came out for Spider-Man was The Amazing Spider-Man 2, which I unfortunately did see in the cinema. And I didn't see Homecoming in the cinema because I thought, oh, it's another superhero film coming out this year. I really can't be bothered good to see it. It's hot.
00:21:19
Speaker
I gave this one a miss, I will say. But when I rewatched it years later, I'm not going to lie, this is actually one of my surprising favourites of the iteration. I wouldn't say it's the best of the three of them, but I was really blindsided by how much I enjoyed Homecoming as a film. Just the whole setup of it. The fact that for anyone who doesn't know by now, Homecoming is of course about Peter preparing for his. Is it prom? Is it Homecoming dance? You know?
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, I guess the name suggests I'm not American, so apologies. Yeah, it's basically about him struggling through school, trying to get his own identity as Spider-Man and everything, and he has to fight against the Vulture, which is usually seen as a creepy old guy
00:22:05
Speaker
who dresses up as his fursona, or his birdsona, I suppose, as a massive vulture. But in this film, it's more about a disgruntled maintenance worker, isn't it? That cleans up the city and his government contract gets taken off of him. Well, I was pretty confused by that. I made a note of that. What is Michael Keaton's character's job? Because he seems to have some sort of engineering type background of the salvaging all this stuff.
00:22:31
Speaker
Was he just a clean-up crew or was he supposed to utilise these materials? What is the situation with what he was doing? I think he was just a clean-up crew. There was more to it, obviously, because as you said, he had his mechanics degree and everything, but I'm sorry, his mechanics degree, I'm making a assumption there. Yeah, we actually don't know if he knows anything about engineering. I mean, he shot like a laser, so we can assume he knows enough not to kill himself. Well, he did pick the wrong gun at one point. Oh yeah, and he shoots the gun.
00:23:01
Speaker
He like vaporizes the guy because he thought it was a gravity gun. Batman no!
00:23:07
Speaker
Batman doesn't use guns. He's all tuckered out. Batman, you killed that man. I think it was just he was a normal worker though that was like employed by, I've got my Scottish brain on because I was going to say the council. Obviously they don't have the council. Aye, they need the New York council. Do you know what would be hilarious? Steve's Spider-Man Homecoming was set in Scotland or the UK as a whole. You know he would be a council worker.
00:23:33
Speaker
Well, for one thing, there are no tall buildings in Scotland, so what would he swing on? You know that one scene where he's running through the suburbs and really struggling because he can't swing on buildings anymore? That would be the entire movie. Instead of Spider-Man, it would be more like Running Man. That's a different movie. Yes, I know. I know.
00:23:49
Speaker
Yeah, he has just like a clean up crew that loses his contract to, I can't remember if it's S.H.I.E.L.D. or it's like someone affiliated with Stark Industries because they want to take the technology but he manages to take some of it and run a black market weapons ring and it's quite interesting.
00:24:09
Speaker
I've got to say, I was really... And this was before, obviously, they had all the Disney Plus shows and everything talking about the real life aspects of the MCU. Because after that, when I was thinking back to our episode on living in the Zelda universe, and even before that with Adam and I, when we did Living in the Pokémon universe, I always thought, oh, Living in the MCU, that would be a cool episode. And then I was like,
00:24:33
Speaker
know, every single film after Phase 3 is just essentially what would it be like to live in the MCU, so unfortunately probably not a good idea there. But yeah, it is quite interesting to see Peter find his feet in everything
00:24:48
Speaker
in this one. They surprisingly don't go through the traditional route though with Spider-Man. Even just the intro itself is quite interesting. You have to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think this is the first time, and they do it again in Far From Home, where the intro is the villain being introduced first. We get like a little villain origin story off the bat before we even see Spider-Man, and it happens again in Far From Home.
00:25:11
Speaker
where we get to see what we later learn to be the villain at the very beginning. So I don't think that happened in either Andrew Garfield's versions or in any of the three Tobin Maguire movies. I think all of them started off with Spider-Man. Well, no, technically. I can't believe I'm saying this. For the Amazing Spider-Man 2, remember it started in the plane with the 2004 Wi-Fi.
00:25:33
Speaker
Right, yes. That wasn't the ultimate villain. That was kind of a side plot, wasn't it? Why did that start the movie? That wasn't even the main plot of the movie. Well, see if you go on to, I can't remember if it's Sony's official channel where they've got the first 10 minutes of the film. The majority of that video is just Richard and Mary Parker just fighting this guy on an airplane.
00:25:56
Speaker
What am I gonna get to Spider-Man? Yeah, it's like I didn't realise I put on the born identity here. It's like you only have a bit like DVD. It's like it starts off as one film and then it cuts to another one and you're like, huh, this is not good. No, being a very reputable individual, I've never watched a Blu-ray. A Blu-ray. A Blu-ray.
00:26:17
Speaker
Being a reputable individual, I have never watched any sort of pirated material, and I think that I will be reporting you now. Oh, the panda lawyer is giving me loads of hand gestures right now. Okay, no. Oh, that one's a bit rude. All right, all right.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's giving you the Konami code of signals right there. Joking aside there. Yeah, it's quite an interesting way they introduce
Audience Relatability and Impact
00:26:42
Speaker
these films. And this is something I was laughing at with you when I was rewatching No Way Home, where in that
00:26:48
Speaker
Spider-Man's the second character to be introduced on screen. So the first one, ironically enough, is Mysterio from Far From Home, and then Spider-Man reacting. And then the third character they actually introduced is none other than J. Jonah Jameson. You could argue that J. Jonah is somewhat the villain in that one. Yeah, I know we'll get onto it, but he was very Alex Jonesy. Yeah, I think that's what they were going for. They even had the supplements kind of ad. Yeah, it wasn't subtle, I will say.
00:27:17
Speaker
If we can pick it out and be like, yeah, very info wars there. Here's a question for you though. Do you think that's, and again I don't want to start off in a negative here, but do you think that is a problem with this run? That the focus isn't always on Spider-Man in these own films?
00:27:34
Speaker
I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I think that's a different framing device that allows the kind of situation to occur and how does Spider-Man solve it. I think that's a very interesting direction that we've not really seen. This is kind of my point to a lot of the other criticisms of these movies is that what people often want is just the same thing they've seen before.
00:27:55
Speaker
And this isn't that. This is something new, something different. When I'm kind of addressing some more of the other points against this, I'm going to completely defend every aspect of these movies because there are things that I like and don't like. But I think that it is a different perspective on the Spider-Man franchise. So that kind of needs to be addressed in that way. I think that yes,
00:28:16
Speaker
We are getting a examination of other aspects of the movie. We're seeing the villains, we're seeing the world around and how it's being impacted, and Spider-Man's kind of trying to react to that. And you can make the argument, yeah, that Spider-Man is sometimes not always central in his own movies, but I think that he's still quite clearly the main character and that it just allows him to sort of bounce off of other characters and other subplots quite well. I think it balances that in a very interesting way. What do you think about that though?
00:28:43
Speaker
As I said in the intro, it is interesting that they kept him as a teenager. As of recording this, we're recording this in January 2023, so we don't really know where they're going to take the character. Spoilers for No Way Home, and obviously this whole thing will be spoilers. But going forward from the end of No Way Home, it's clear that they are establishing Spider-Man as your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man, going from high school to become a nado and everything.
00:29:11
Speaker
Throughout the three films, we never really get to see his adult side, we just see him as an awkward teenager. And I've got to say, I think that is maybe one of the things that alienates people from these films. Like again, I totally agree with you. I don't think that these films are bad. I think if anything, these are probably the most consistent out of the three of them. With the Raimi films, people can go, oh, Spider-Man 1 and 2, they were fantastic. But you get to Spider-Man 3 and there's a very hearty
00:29:41
Speaker
throughout the entire room. You think, oh, let's not talk about Spider-Man 3 with the Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2. You think the first one, oh, great film. But then you get to the other one and you're like, oh, we're not going to talk about that. But with these three films, no matter what problems that people have with
00:29:57
Speaker
them. They are definitely consistent, the way they're made, the way the characters interact with one another. There was never a moment where I sat there and thought, oh, that's out of character for Peter to do that, or for MJ and Ned, or even Aunt May, which again, we'll get on to those characters. But I never felt as if
00:30:15
Speaker
they kind of went out of their way or they went like kind of left field to be like oh this is a completely different iteration pair film. They were always consistent but the main problem I have personally, and it's not something I really thought of when I initially watched these films but kind of looking on no way home,
00:30:33
Speaker
I think one of the main problems is that Peter Parker is of course a teenager who's going through school and he's part of a completely different generation. If you're growing up with this film as a child or as a young adult or a teenager, then you'll probably relate to Peter a bit more because obviously they have things like TikTok and they're all on the mobile phones texting and everything. Whereas when we were growing up, don't get me wrong, we didn't exactly relate to rabies.
00:31:02
Speaker
30-year-old schoolchildren walking about. But, you know, he's part of, is it Generation Z? Tom Holland is part of Gen Z, yeah. Gen Z, like whatever generation they are, as these films came out, the current generation of like young people. Insert current generation. Me with my 30-year-old bones going back in my day.
Nostalgia and MCU Influence
00:31:22
Speaker
we had practical effects. Yeah, it seems as if he's more relatable to a younger audience, and again there's obviously nothing wrong with that. Adaptations are going to change over time, and it seems as if when Peter becomes an adult as it were when he comes out of school in both the Amazing Spider-Man films and
00:31:41
Speaker
the Sam Raimi films. They're a bit more relatable to people from any generation, because you know you can relate to not having enough to pay your bills maybe, or struggling through dark times in your life, you know, that kind of thing. Whereas in this one it's very fantastical. And again, I'm not saying like all Spider-Man films should be doom and gloom. That's exactly what the Amazing Spider-Man 2 proved, that if you get too dark and gloomy, people are going to be turned off into
00:32:10
Speaker
entirely, but then they kind of went the opposite direction with these films, and they made it very bright and colourful, obviously until the end of No Way Home and bits of Far From Home, but the majority of it is very marvel-y, and I know that sounds like a cop-out to be like, oh it's Marvel, but would you say that
00:32:27
Speaker
that it does feel as if Marvel has kind of sunken their claws into the script, the pacing, just everything about this film. And it definitely feels more like an MCU film rather than what was seen of the character before. It is certainly much more polished than we've seen before. It has this Marvel sheen to it.
00:32:47
Speaker
I don't necessarily think that was a bad thing because I think that is one of the aspects of the previous two, I want to say trilogies. Garfield did get a trilogy. The previous two incarnations of Spider-Man, they weren't always very well paced. They weren't always super well written.
00:33:02
Speaker
I think that they kind of needed a bit more direction than they had. And so I know that Sony brought in Kevin Feige, who was the overlord of all Marvel Cinematic Universe properties to come in and kind of oversee what was going on. And I think he did for Spider-Man what needed doing and what has needed doing for a long, long time of kind of creating a consistency with these movies and with directing them in a way. He wasn't the director. John Watts, I think, was the director of these, I think all three of them.
00:33:32
Speaker
But Kevin Feike certainly pushed it in the direction that it needed to go for us to have another Spider-Man film, which didn't just seem like another rehashing of what we've seen before, but at the same time maintaining consistent to both Spider-Man as a character and also fitting within this Marvel Cinematic Universe.
00:33:51
Speaker
Going back to what was being said about being stuck in the teenager role, what I would say about that is that, again, we have seen Spider-Man be a quote, quote, teenager when he was played by someone who wasn't really very much believable as a teenager and then move on into the poor post-school living in New York kind of life and struggling to balance work life and being a Spider-Man.
00:34:14
Speaker
We've seen that. So what we're getting now is more a look at life for Spider-Man while in school, because we never really got to see school in either Andrew Garfield, Spider-Man, or Tom McGuire's. We got to see brief moments of, oh, he was bullied. Oh, he had conflict with this person. Oh, he was kind of dating this person or had a crush on this person.
00:34:31
Speaker
But we didn't get to see kind of his school experience. And I think that's quite an interesting perspective as someone who has superpowers and is still in school that we get that. And I think that they does that in a very interesting way. And I also think that what people are often quite guilty of, and I myself am very guilty of this, is nostalgia glasses and believing that what you saw as a child and grew up with is better than what current generation is watching and growing up with.
00:34:57
Speaker
because you had a different kind of mindset back then to enjoy. If this came out when you were younger, you would like this more. If you're experiencing something as an adult watching this, you're an adult watching teenagers in a movie, you aren't going to relate to them. When you were a kid or a kids now watching, they do relate to this. And you watching back on say the Raimi trilogy, you can say you're an adult now watching it and going, okay, I can relate to that. And I remembered as a child watching it and enjoying it.
00:35:23
Speaker
So I have that enjoyment of it. So I think there is a certain level of nostalgia and bias and rose tinted glasses with those watching these movies. Because whilst I really enjoyed both the Raimi trilogy and much of the Mark Webb films, I do think that they both suffer from poor direction at times and poor writing, especially at times. So I think that this trilogy is as a whole stronger than both of those series.
00:35:50
Speaker
I totally see what you mean. I brought this up in our really retrospective where we discussed the landscape of superhero films as a whole. We talked about how superhero films really weren't as popular back then and the only real ones that stood out were things like Blade, X-Men and of course Spider-Man which came along.
00:36:11
Speaker
And because that came at a time in my life where that was not really something that was, not that it wasn't seen, but it wasn't as popular at the time. So when that came along, it was fresh, it was different. You know, it hooked a whole generation into Spider-Man, but at the same time, it's gotten the treatment very much like the prequel trilogy of Star Wars, where it's been memed to hell and back.
00:36:37
Speaker
and because of those memes and the shitposting and things like that. I think that's why so many people are looking at it very favourably in hindsight. Same with the amazing Spider-Man. It's like people Memo and the poor Peter Parker and the Goblinitis scene and everything, you know, they all come together to ironically like it and everything, but you are completely right. I do agree that if we were growing up nowadays as a Try Not To Cry,
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah, the fact that if we were growing up with these films, you're completely right, we would love these films. These would be the kind of films that would be like, oh, it's the best interpretation, and then you would watch the Sam Ray Matrology and the Mark Webb ones, and you'd be like, oh, they're weird, they're a bit awkward, they're not as fun. No, completely right. Nostalgia plays a huge part, and that is exactly what happens in No Way Home, which I love
00:37:31
Speaker
some of it because you know me and my sucker for nostalgia but I loved some of it but I feel as if there was a lot of it where I kind of looked at it and I thought this nostalgia isn't working for me. I really did not like some of the nostalgia. We'll get onto it but especially in terms of the villains where obviously not to the same extent as Amazing Spider-Man 2 or Spider-Man 3 but there were like too many villains
00:37:56
Speaker
ones going on in that film where it was like, there was a lot of them that didn't really feel necessary. It felt as if, oh, we need a quota of Spider-Man villains from each film. You know, we need the Green Goblin from the first one, Doc Ock from the second one, Sandman for the third one. Thank God they didn't bring back Topher Grace. See, in all honesty, I think I would have preferred him because I don't see why the Sandman's actor is brilliant. Don't get me wrong.
00:38:22
Speaker
I don't see why he was there, because all the characters, they meet an unfortunate end. But the only two that really don't belong there are the lizard who is still alive by the end of The Amazing Spider-Man and Sandman, who makes his peace with Tobey Maguire. But they're there, and if a piece of art goes on about saying, oh, we have to reform them, we have to help them, and I'm like,
00:38:47
Speaker
and the lizard are pretty reformed. One's imprisoned and the other one flew away in the wind, I feel as if they got relatively good ends compared to the other ones. But again, we will get into that. I guess you could argue that the Sandman at the end of Spider-Man 3 kind of disappears and doesn't really get to live his life anymore. So by curing him of the sand thing, then he can now reintegrate himself. Well, not really, because he was on the run from the police.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah. So as soon as he turns up and hugs his daughter who's getting bundled into the back of that car, and to quote a very famous parody video, you don't understand. I have a daughter. She's sick. As they just bundle him in and be like, yeah, no, you're going away for a long time. Or that deleted scene we laughed about when he turns himself into a sandcastle to approach his daughter.
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah, that was fun. But, saying that, will we talk about the characters? Because I feel as if we've been putting it off for a long time. I feel as if the listeners are on the edge of their seat going, like, get to Tom Holland! I feel as if we have to talk about these films overall, because it is important to establish what we're getting into with these.
Performance Analysis: Tom Holland as Spider-Man
00:39:52
Speaker
Let's start with the heroes. Let's split it up into two. Let's talk about the heroes and villains here. So, of course, the heroes, we have Tom Holland as Spider-Man, which
00:40:01
Speaker
Again, there has been a mix, because on the one hand you've got people who say he's very charismatic, he's very, you know, he's very quippy, he does the role of Peter Parker and Spider-Man quite well. I would say for the most part, I would say that's probably true. I would say he's very energetic in the role, but then there's the other side that says that he is Iron Man Jr, as we talked about. This is kind of a bigger problem I have
00:40:28
Speaker
with the kind of overall MCU iteration. Like again, it's not like a deal breaker that I'm going to slam my fist into the table and say I'm never watching another Spider-Man film. But before I go on to that, what are your thoughts on Tom Holland? I think he stepped into a difficult situation. I don't think it was as difficult a situation as Andrew Garfield had to step into because I think people who weren't very happy with the Andrew Garfield film for whatever reason now had a new Spider-Man to look at. And this one was seen to be
00:40:57
Speaker
more favorable. I think one of the criticisms people had of the Andrew Garfield films was that he wasn't believable as like the nerdy kid in school. Whereas this Peter whilst being hot tub Holland is very handsome, I'd say boy, he's a man, very handsome man, he is able to play that kind of awkward, clumsy teenager quite well. And so I think he does very well in this role. The comment
00:41:20
Speaker
about him being the second best at both things, where second best as Spider-Man behind Andrew Garfield and second best as Peter Parker behind Tom Maguire. I can understand that perspective, and I actually held the same perspective previously, but I think he is a better Peter Parker than Tom Maguire was. Especially having rewatched the three Sam Raimi Tom Maguire Spider-Man films and seeing Toby's acting as Peter Parker
00:41:44
Speaker
I think that I enjoyed Tom Holland's Peter Parker more. I felt it much less cringey. You can play awkward without being cringey. If you're playing awkward, then it should come off as kind of funny. And it doesn't always feel that way with Tom McGuire's version. So I think that Tom Holland does that better. I think that there is a fair argument to say that Andrew Garfield is the best Spider-Man Spider-Man. And I think that's fair. And I would probably agree with that.
00:42:10
Speaker
I don't think that Tom Holland is too far behind it though. I think he does very well in the role as Spider-Man. I think he has lots of fun quips and I like seeing him kind of go about his, especially in the first one where you see his sort of friendly neighborhood Spider-Man role where he like helps an old lady, gives her directions, is stopping carjackings happening. He just seems like a very kind of sweet, sweet boy, which you kind of want to see rather than being hot headed. So that is such a lovely kind of perspective to see.
00:42:32
Speaker
As these films progress, we get to see him try and live up to this kind of mantle that Tony Stark had set and the kind of expectation that he would fulfill that role, which is the main factor of the second film, which takes place just after the death of Tony Stark in Avengers Endgame.
00:42:48
Speaker
spoilers. Yeah, well, we've already given that spoiler warning, so they'll have to deal with it. And then the third one having to sort of deal with this identity, I was gonna say identity crisis, it's not really, it's more of a crisis of everyone knowing your identity and having to deal with the repercussions of that and then who Spider-Man is and what he must be as a result of trauma that he encounters. Just kind of wrapping up before I get your perspective of that,
00:43:12
Speaker
I think that Tom Holland performs a role better overall than either McGuire or Garfield. And just quickly touching upon the Stark Jr comments, I do understand that perspective. I think that there can be a lot said of him relying on technology, relying on Stark's toys to the actions, be a superhero.
00:43:31
Speaker
I don't think that's necessarily always the case. I mean, you have that kind of moment in the first one where he has the suit taken away from him and he has that kind of moment of like, Oh, I'm nothing without the suit. And Tony kind of responds that if you're nothing with the suit, then you're nothing at all. And you need to kind of learn to be something. And then he kind of has that moment where he does that. So I think we kind of have that point addressed in the first one. I don't fully agree with that sentiment, but yeah, what are your thoughts on what I've said and particularly the last point?
00:43:56
Speaker
I feel as if, and this is something I would do at the beginning of the episode, but first of all I do agree that he does portray the role really well. He's a good actor and everything, and he does portray a more believable, naive Peter Parker.
00:44:12
Speaker
rather than socially awkward outcasts because I have to admit there was a distinct, and again I'm not advocating for the bullying of children here, but there was a distinct lack of bullying in these films. Like even when you see Flash Thompson, I always remember the Raimi films where Flash Thompson practically nearly beats him to a pulp, and the amazing Spider-Man films who tries to beat him up again, but in this one he's just like a whiny TikTok influencer, which I do think is kind of funny.
00:44:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's actually quite an interesting take that we've seen Big Bully flash in two films prior and so we're kind of getting what is very much a modern bully of being very emotionally abusive. I have to admit they do update the majority of the character really well for this but sorry before I go into that.
00:44:53
Speaker
About the whole it being tied into the MCU, I feel as if it's like a blessing and a curse on the way. I don't like my own overall. I do think it's really cool to see all these superheroes come together and feel as if it is believable. They all live in the same universe.
00:45:10
Speaker
have to admit there's like a particular scene and this is slightly off topic but in the Marvel Spider-Man video game for the PlayStation 4 there's a building that you know it's the Avengers Tower that stands really high in the cityscape and you think oh that's a cool nod but then after everything that goes on in that game to New York you then start to kind of think
00:45:32
Speaker
Well, why weren't the Avengers brought in to deal with it? And at least in these films, it feels quite realistic as very relative here, but realistic in the universe that you have Tony Stark dealing with certain things, you have the FBI.
00:45:48
Speaker
at one point popping up, but I have to admit they pop up a lot more than I expected in these films. You know me, I love it when someone takes a character and they do put their own spin on it and they try something different, so I feel as if overall they did a great job of
00:46:04
Speaker
updating the character for modern audiences as well as for this particular time. Because as we spoke about, the Raimi trilogy and the Mark Webb films were made at a completely different time of superhero films. So the fact that this was made when it was, and I do think that was great. But going back to the whole time, the universe together, I don't feel as if the Spider-Man does get his chance to breathe on his own.
00:46:33
Speaker
And the reason they say that is because it's something that the Talking Smack podcast brought up when they said that Marvel needs to figure out a way to let Peter have his adventures on his own without forcing team ups on us. I do agree with that. I feel as if it makes sense in Homecoming because Tony Stark is a mentor figure and everything. But then by the time we get too far from home, we've got S.H.I.E.L.D. involved and Mysterio. Like Mysterio, okay, can give him a pass because he's the villain.
00:47:02
Speaker
but we have to have Nick Fury and we have to have S.H.I.E.L.D., which I have to admit, I did obviously for this review. But before that, I hadn't really watched Far From Home. I watched Homecoming, then completely skipped Far From Home and then watched No Way Home. So there was a lot been between that I was confused about. I was like, why did they know Peter's name? Why is this going on? So going back and watching it, I was like, oh, OK, that's why and everything. And it has got one of the funniest lines of the MCU when
00:47:29
Speaker
of course he's staying to Samuel Jackson. Oh, I'm not good enough. And he says, which please, you'll be the spice. And I thought that's very funny. But this is more in the MCU and Marvel as a whole, I think, as opposed to Spider-Man, that they feel as if they have to have crossovers and things to make it a believable world. You know, they can't just have Spider-Man off on these own adventures. So I watched this with my partner as well, and she made the point which many people do, and it's kind of that point that everyone makes with these kinds of superhero films.
00:47:58
Speaker
within the MCU is, where was this character? Why didn't they come and help? This seemed like a pretty big deal, surely this person would have come. And I think the MCU have cornered themselves a little bit in that, yes, if there was a big threat, you wouldn't just have this one superhero dealing with it. Someone else would be like, I'm a superhero, I need to also help with this, I need to do my part so the world doesn't end or the city doesn't get destroyed or whatever. And so to counteract that a little bit, try and act upon that,
00:48:24
Speaker
What a lot of these MCU movies, particularly the Spider-Man movies are doing is they're bringing in the kind of wider MCU to act as that like, oh, this is being addressed. And I think the best of that is Far From Home, where I think it is largely a Spider-Man dealing with the Spider-Man threat, because it's Spider-Man dealing with Mysterio, which is a Spider-Man villain.
00:48:44
Speaker
I think it makes sense that the government organization for dealing with supernatural superhero type threats is monitoring the situation and especially kind of in the wake of the death of Iron Man who previously would have kind of been dealing with this. So I do understand it kind of seems like I'm bringing up a defense for every negative point.
00:49:02
Speaker
I do think the Marvel tied up the loose ends pretty well in that regard. That's one of the things I don't necessarily think that these films are always the strongest in terms of being, I mean, I know the point was made earlier about them not being memorable. I do think they're memorable movies. I don't think they stand out as much. But I think what they have going for them and is often kind of a label put on Marvel of this kind of cookie cutter format is that they're polished. There's nothing really wrong with
00:49:28
Speaker
them. I don't really have too much criticism of it, which can be its own criticism, ironically, in a way. I understand that kind of perspective of like, oh, he always has to lean against something else. But I think it makes sense. And when you separate yourself from the Sony world, which doesn't have any of the these kind of characters, you're going to run into this.
00:49:48
Speaker
We've seen two iterations of Spider-Man without these characters. We're now getting one that includes them. And I don't think that's a bad thing, personally. I think it's interesting and I'm a sucker. I am perfectly aware of, I don't think I'm necessarily a Marvel fanboy, but I am a sucker for team ups and crossovers and that kind of thing. I got very excited when we saw Matt Murdock appear, who's Daredevil, appear in No Way Home briefly. I was in the cinema and there was an entire kind of collective gasp. And you don't really get those
00:50:15
Speaker
kind of things in the other movies. It's a very exciting kind of type of audience engagement that you don't really get otherwise. I can find a defense for why Spider-Man is always seemingly being thrust in with these other characters and kind of necessity behind it.
00:50:34
Speaker
I have to say, before we move on and talk about the other characters, I would like to see either a movie or a TV show or something where he did something on his own, you know, because that's what they kind of allude to in No Way Home, that he gets his own apartment and everything, he's got a fresh start, he makes his own suit and everything and
00:50:56
Speaker
You know, I would like to see more of that because as much as, and again, I do agree that is quite special, and it is something that Marvel have relatively perfected, as it were, that they have all these characters that do seem organic to each other's stories, like Doctor Strange popping up in other people's stories and things like that. That is one of the things that I will say that annoyed me at the very end of No Way Home.
00:51:22
Speaker
And you know how usually Marvel have like a post credit scene where it'll be like a silly thing or something like that. I always remember sitting to the end of No Way Home's post credit scene and it was literally just a trailer for, I think it was a multiverse of madness.
00:51:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that was a little bit disappointing. They did include the Venom. Oh yeah, there was that. That was good. It's very interesting that they're introducing the idea of the symbiote as being introduced in that manner, that kind of a little segment of it was left behind, which doesn't fully make sense because everything should surely have been zapped away. See, that's what I thought. But you know, it's Marvel.
00:51:58
Speaker
I was like turn your brain off kid, it's Marvel. Yeah, no I know what you mean. It just seemed a wee bit disappointing because it almost took away from it being a Spider-Man. Obviously it's not like the worst thing they could have done but it did feel as if oh you're just finished watching a Spider-Man film, now forget all about that and now watch our next film on Doctor Strange and I was like oh I don't know how
Supporting Characters and Their Evolution
00:52:20
Speaker
much I like that.
00:52:20
Speaker
I don't agree with that, so that's what I would like to see from this iteration. I would like to see more adventures of him on his own, as some of the comments were saying, less dependent on other characters. Obviously they're still going to do it, and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with this iteration, but I would just like to see a bit more
00:52:42
Speaker
independence maybe, whether that be through a TV show, through a movie, but speaking of independence, Spider-Man in this iteration, and Peter Parker as a whole, he's very dependent on his, what I called last week, his inner circle of characters, and of course the main theory that I can think of off the top of my head are of course Aunt May, who I have to admit has gotten younger, so it's
00:53:05
Speaker
like a Benjamin Button effect of Aunt May's at this point. The horrification of Aunt May. Don't get me wrong, the actress who plays her does a fantastic job in everything. Marisa Tomei. I don't know how to feel about that iteration, I've got to say. As someone who grew up with the Raimi films, I don't want to say, not if it's the Rosemary Harris, but I don't want to say her having, it's like in the No Way Home where it's like you see her and another character called Happy have a fling and everything and all
00:53:33
Speaker
Obviously, it shows she's more independent, she's got her own life and everything, but at the same time, I'm thinking back to that era and the Sally Field era and I'm just like, in the one hand, it's completely different, but on the other hand, I suppose it's going back to what you were saying that it's more realistic maybe as a man in terms of between the age range and having their own life outside of looking after Peter.
00:53:56
Speaker
I find it hard because I think Marisa Tomei does a very good job in fulfilling this character. It's certainly very different to what we've seen before. I think more so than either Sally Field or Rosemary Harris's portrayal. I'd say that Sally Fields was just kind of a slightly younger, more emotive and a better actress playing a very similar type
00:54:20
Speaker
of Aunt May, whereas Marisato May, she sunk her teeth in and is playing a very different depiction of Aunt May. As you say, very much more of an independent one. We do not get any inkling. I'm not even entirely sure of Ben as Uncle Ben has mentioned at any point in these trilogies. I don't know if it's acknowledged at all. Do you remember?
00:54:40
Speaker
I can't remember if he's referenced in an easter egg where I'm sure he must be in a dialogue. I think he's got his initials on a briefcase or a backpack or something. He's got Uncle Ben's initials on it. But again, I can't actually remember. Because he is and you're completely right. Because obviously by this point we've seen it twice, that Uncle Ben's been shot and they never address it in the MCU.
00:55:05
Speaker
Yeah, the Uncle Ben character in the MCU is played by several characters, but for the most part, it's Tony Stark and Marissa Tomei's Aunt May kind of fulfill that role, with the latter ultimately delivering the great power, great responsibility line that is normally tied to Uncle Ben.
00:55:23
Speaker
So it kind of cements that she is that figure, that role in Peter's life. My sister-in-law is a big fan of Spider-Man. And I think she had previously told me that Spider-Man Homecoming takes place, I think only a few months or like six months or something after the death of Uncle Ben. So it is quite recent or like, yeah, I can't remember the exact timeline, but it is quite recent after the death of Uncle Ben that that happens. Going over to say, no way home.
00:55:53
Speaker
There's a moment where the three Spider-Man are all bonding over like shared trauma and shared grief, and it's very odd that none of them share over the same trauma that they each have. One chooses May, one chooses Ben, and one chooses Gwen Stacy. You can't expect all three to relate to the Ben thing because
00:56:12
Speaker
Andrew Garfield Spider-Man does blame himself for Ben's death as well. So I was surprised that they didn't speak to that. They wanted to have that Gwen Stacy regret kind of moment that you don't really get because of there not being a third Andrew Garfield Spider-Man. They need to conclude that kind of acceptance of the grief. To be fair, they do have the with great power comes great responsibility bonding moment, but I am laughing because
00:56:37
Speaker
Aunt May says it before she dies in that film and then Tobey Maguire, Peter Parker, immediately is like, oh my Uncle Ben told me that. And Andrew Garfield, God bless him, he does say, that's what my Uncle Ben said as well. And I'm sitting there in the cinema going, diddy though? Diddy? Diddy, are you sure he didn't say, you'll have a moral obligation? No, that's not what, oh, got the gist of it. That's the Clough Notes. That's the TLDR version.
00:57:03
Speaker
The group power comes great responsibility. It's like, oh man, that would have been so much better. Speaking of those kind of characters, we've also got the friendship group of MJ and Ned. Can I say a potentially controversial opinion? Do you hate Zendaya? Only for the first film.
00:57:22
Speaker
I'll say I did not like her character in the first film at all and I don't know if this is again like I'm not a teenager obviously I've made so many self-deprecating jokes about being weary and old and yelling at kids to get off my lawn but at the same time I don't know I don't know what they were going for I don't even know where you began I was gonna say email but not even
00:57:44
Speaker
She's like, oh look at me, I'm working training and I don't go with the mainstream. And I'm like, okay. It's the kind of person that would come up to you in either school or university, give you an opinion about something you never asked for, walk away and you're like, what the hell just happened?
00:57:59
Speaker
Ned I like. I will say that. I know it's not Harry Osborn but I do really enjoy Ned's performance in these films. I do think he's a believable friend and I mean he's just very endearing but it took me a full film and a half to actually warm up to Zindia.
00:58:18
Speaker
Because I feel myself in no way home, she's really good, but in Far From Home, she's kind of half and half. As soon as, you know, she starts warming up to Peter and everything, it's like, okay, it seems a little bit better, but what did you think of the friendship group? I am in agreement with you actually there. I think that Jacob Batalon who plays Ned did a very good job. I think this is a very kind of interesting, brand character that we've not had before.
00:58:45
Speaker
The relationship that Peter had with Harry Osborn in both iterations of Spider-Man previously was always very awkward, and in the case of The Amazing Spider-Man, very forced in how it was done, whereas Jacob's Ned seems very believable as a friend. The whole like, doing a Lego Death Star, like that's the kind of thing that you and I would have done when we were younger.
00:59:03
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're completely right. And his kind of like interest in the superhero kind of world and like wanting to be part of it, but knowing like he's just like a normal dude, they stayed away from giving him any kind of power or super assistance. One of the kind of criticisms of say something like Shang-Chi, I don't know if you ever watched that movie, but spoilers for Shang-Chi, his friend character played by Aquafina, who is
00:59:24
Speaker
An enjoyable character throughout the movie kind of acts as like something to bounce the situations off of. The audience insert character at the very end pulls off a ridiculous arrow shot when she's not already had much experience in archery before. And that felt very unbelievable. Whereas Ned feels like a very believable kind of side character that he's not really all that much more than you'd expect of a normal dude to be doing up until the magic at the end. But even that I don't feel is ridiculous.
00:59:50
Speaker
With regards to Zendaya, I'm of the same opinion. I didn't like her in the first one. And I didn't think much of her when I first watched the movie and then watching it again this week. I didn't take to her. I didn't I didn't enjoy her character. I didn't find her particularly offensive. I thought it was it was interesting, but I didn't enjoy her very much. And so I was bit underwhelmed when I kind of realized like, oh, she's the MJ character.
01:00:11
Speaker
I did think that the kind of the romance between them seemed a little bit more forced into the next couple of films, or rather into the next film. I felt much more believable by the third one. But I did warm to her character in the second one. By the end of the second one, I liked her. I was still a bit a bit unsold on her throughout it. But by the end, I did like her. And then in the third one, I found her very enjoyable. And I thought her quips were very clever. I thought they were well written and very appropriate for her character. So I thought that that worked quite well.
01:00:38
Speaker
obviously because she is the main love interest and she comes away with weird and wacky quips like for example, you know when she says she wants a black dahlia or she likes black dahlias the fluggers because of the murder, which she would definitely listen to true crime podcasts in that universe, there's no way she would.
01:01:01
Speaker
You know, she talks about that, but I'm just thinking if the roles were reversed and it was just like a guy being like, oh yeah, I like them because of a murder, you know, people would be like, huh. Hello Avengers headquarters. She does get better, that's all we'll see. She definitely becomes a better character the more she's fleshed out, and I do feel as if that's relatively the same for most characters, but speaking of that, if we flip the coin as it were and go on to of course the villain side of this piece, I
01:01:30
Speaker
I have to say this particular iteration probably has the strongest if not some of the strongest
Villains and Narrative Balance
01:01:38
Speaker
villains. It was for the first two films. The third film relies on nostalgia and everything so we can't always say oh it's the best on its own because it relies on
01:01:47
Speaker
the previous films which I will get on to but the first two films I love the fact that Michael Keaton and Jake Gyllenhaal are basically just regular people in this universe. Obviously they become very over the top and fantastical later on but it's the fact that Jake Gyllenhaal's character is like a visual effects artist.
01:02:08
Speaker
Actually, I do not enjoy that one as much. I don't enjoy that film as much as the other two, I would say, but I do think that is very interesting, especially an interpretation of the Mysterio character, which was such a weird kind of comic book character to realize it in this way is very interesting.
01:02:26
Speaker
No, I completely agree. I do feel as if this film was okay overall. Not great, not terrible, just okay. But I feel as if the Mysterio aspect of it is absolutely fantastic and these henchmen aren't even... You know how you usually get the MCU hired goons and they're all bulky and they can't think for themselves at times? These are like proper visual effects artists.
01:02:51
Speaker
things like that who work for it. He's got a whole special effects team working for them. I just love that. This movie was written during some sort of special effects strike where they were like, those damn special effects teams. And you know what? I'm going to make the costume person a villain too. Because fuck that.
01:03:07
Speaker
this was a very Marvel-centric written film. We'll power you up what we want, dammit. Yeah, even for the first one, even for Homecoming, I really enjoy Homecoming purely for the fact that again, it's just a bit of regular guy who's trying to do his job and then his job essentially gets taken from him by these special agents because of the obvious subject matter of alien technology and he practically loses his job and that sort of flips him over the edge. I love things like that because it's so relatable but
01:03:35
Speaker
By the third film though, the only two that I will say, and again this is my nostalgia glasses so apologies if you get blinded by a kind of rose tinted glare over there but I think the green goblin and by extension Doc Ock I feel as if those two are by far the best villains
01:03:55
Speaker
and that. But the rest of them seem very supplemental, and we know why. They're a no-way home. They're a no-way home because they have to have a quota of supervillains per film. We have to have, as I said, you have Green Goblin from the first one. We have Doc Ock from number two, Sandman from three, The Lizard and Jamie Foxx.
01:04:15
Speaker
playing himself in this one. No, he's not Electro and I'll tell you why. Do you not think that though? That Electro seems like a completely different character than this one. He is very much a different character. I don't think that's a bad thing. Oh no, not at all, yeah. He was really weird and not enjoyable to watch.
01:04:34
Speaker
in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. So I don't think that's a bad thing. Well, I did quite like because I know they kind of lost his electric blue look. I think part of that was Jamie Foxx did not want to get back into that makeup chair or whatever they had to do for it. But they had a moment very near the end where his face flashes electricity and it has like the star on his face, which is very much kind of a reference to the old comic book version of Electro. Quite enjoyed that. They did it a couple of times through the final fight.
01:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, they couldn't exactly get Dean to hand back to play the Green Goblin because they already have a Green Goblin. That's the thing though, it kind of highlights how weak the villains were and the other iterations, but it's kind of weird. This is something that might again, it might cause controversy. Hashtag votes no one charts an army, but it seems as if
01:05:20
Speaker
the villains from the Raimi era that come into this film, they absolutely shine, they're fantastic, they are brilliant, but Tobey Maguire doesn't seem as if he's all into it, whereas it's the complete opposite with Andrew Garfield. It seems as if
01:05:36
Speaker
hero is strong. He's like absolutely fantastic and I would go as far to say that he has an almost redemption arc because after that I was in the same boat, like I was watching him and I thought, you know what, maybe I was too harsh on those films. I liked him more in this movie than I liked him in either of his two own movies. No, I'm not even in the sugarcoating pretend I've always liked him in these films but he definitely shone brightest out the three of them and
01:06:02
Speaker
bits. He's not alone in that. I actually think that Willem Dafoe gives a better performance than this than he gives in Spider-Man 1. You know, that's an interesting point. When there was research in this, it was looking at other critics of the radio trilogy to see what they had to say. And one of the critiques someone brought up was the fact that Willem Dafoe is a very expressive actor. He's absolutely fantastic.
01:06:25
Speaker
but the majority of the first Spider-Man film was hiding his expressive face behind his big goblin mask. Bar the end where you can see his teeth and his eyes and everything, you don't really get to see that. Whereas in this one, you see him slowly descending to madness, especially the condo fight where Peter's just laying into him and punching his face and he's just smiling and laughing away. Very Joker-esque.
01:06:52
Speaker
movie reference there but it's just absolutely fantastic. He does that great job and I completely agree he does give such a great performance in this one.
01:07:03
Speaker
God, I can't believe I'm saying this. Bursting into fists, going, finish it! Which, you don't really get any scenes like that anymore in superhero films, but, God, can you imagine that? Of all the references they put in, can you imagine this like that? I was pretty torn on some of the little references. You made the, uh, I'm something of a scientist myself joke, and it was such an inside, hey, guess what kids, it's the meme. I gave it a chuckle when I first saw it. The second time I'm watching it, I kind of was like, I kind of rolled my eyes a little bit more. I was like, oh, I wish they hadn't done that.
01:07:30
Speaker
It's like, though, if I'm talking to you and then I make a reference to a very forgettable conversation we had years ago, and then you're like, why is that your catchphrase now? And I'm like, oh no, don't you remember when I said that? Ha ha. And you would rightfully be like, what? The Shawshank DVD story just told as your catchphrase. I'm something of a Shawshank redemption watcher myself. Yes, please watch previous Chats in any episode.
01:07:57
Speaker
Only true Chatsunami heads will know that reference. This is CCU, the Chatsunami Cinematic Universe. Overall, I feel as if the other villains don't really have much to do other than be in the poster. It's like I know why they chose the Sandman because Venom's not really a thing. They didn't really want to bring him in. They couldn't bring the Green Goblin back because technically he's dead. Because James Franco's cancelled.
01:08:23
Speaker
and James Franco's cancelled. That was another point I was about to bring up, but yeah, I feel as if that was a big point. Yeah, so you've got the Sat-Man that doesn't really fit in terms of narrative, but at the same time you've still got… I think they probably brought him in A because he's probably the only one left out the list, but B as well because of the spectacle. It's like when you see the Sat-Man, you think, holy shit, it's the Sat-Man versus Spider-Man and everything. You don't really
01:08:49
Speaker
think about it very much. You think, oh right, okay, and the lizard, obviously there was only one villain in that film, but they all kind of feel like they're just there. And especially with the lizard being stuck in a van at one point because they just didn't want to animate him. They were just like, oh yeah, Dr Conner wants to stay inside the van. And it's like, why? Why bother?
01:09:08
Speaker
I don't know, it's not as bad as the way they handled it in Spider-Man 3, or the Amazing Spider-Man 2, but it does feel as if too many villains poisoned the broth. I suppose that's the right term. I don't know, it just seems quite superfluous as it were. The superfluous Spider-Man, if you will.
01:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, and Super Bowl is very catchy. Thank you, I'm proud of that one. Overall though, bringing it together, you see compared to the other films that we've talked about, because obviously we've talked about the Raimi era, we've talked about the Mark Webb films, we've talked about the Mark Webb films as well.
Comparative Analysis of Spider-Man Trilogies
01:09:41
Speaker
How would you rate this out of the three of them? Where would this stand in your rankings? I would put these three films at the top.
01:09:49
Speaker
I think that overall, they stand the test of time. I mean, I say the test of time, one of them only came out a couple of years ago. But having watched all three recently, and there may be a level of recency bias to this, and there's certainly a bias on the level of I'm a sucker for collaborations and references in nostalgia, I think that the newest three are the best three. I think I would rank it right now, Tom Holland, Spider-Man trilogy, Tom McGuire, Spider-Man trilogy, and then the two Andrew Garfield films.
01:10:16
Speaker
I think the Andrew Garfield films are actually closer to the Tom McGuire ones than many people would give them, but I would still say that the Tom McGuire ones are better. I do feel as if when Spider-Man fans get together, they're very territorial on what Spider-Man is their iteration, about like Doctor Who fans or James Bond fans even where they have that one particular actor they grew up with, that one particular iteration. And for a lot of younger audiences,
01:10:43
Speaker
that is of course going to be Tom Holland's Spider-Man. But at the same time, you know, obviously you and I, we've got fond memories of the Sam Raimi trilogy and by a lesser extension, I suppose, the amazing Spider-Man films. But what I do appreciate overall is that each actor in each iteration brings something different. And it's amazing to see it based on the landscape of superhero films as a whole.
01:11:10
Speaker
whether it's, as we say, back in the not so prominent 2000s to the 2010s and then of course to the late 2010s with the MCU iterations. But obviously these films aren't perfect. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that, oh, because these are the best, they have to be held on the pedestal, we can't touch them. And of course there's something you've brought up as well. There is that kind of bias of us watching it thinking, oh yeah, we're going to really enjoy this.
01:11:38
Speaker
As I said, there's some really glaring plot holes, and this is me maybe nitpicking. We could obviously spend a whole episode dissecting these films apart. And we will. And we will, oh we will, don't you? One day we will, don't you worry. You've got the whole, why didn't Doctor Strange make the world forget what Mysterio said rather than making them forget Peter Parker? You know, obviously I think that's a slight nod too. Ironically enough, one of the worst received Spider-Man comics storylines
01:12:08
Speaker
I think it's called One More Day, where Peter has to make a deal with the devil. It's comics, bear with me here, but it has to make a deal with Mephisto. I don't know if he's the devil or not, but anyway, he makes a deal with him and in exchange for saving, I think it's Aunt May, he gets forgotten by everyone, including Mary Jane. So it's kind of weird how they took a story that nobody really liked and they were like, oh yeah, we're just going to put it in this film.
01:12:33
Speaker
The premise itself is very shaky at best, but if you don't think about it too much, which I do hate saying that, like oh it's a popcorn flick, just turn off your brain. I don't really like recommending that, but at the end of the day if it is a Marvel film, not every single film has to be like the Shawshank Redemption or Citizen Kane, or you know, it doesn't have to be like this deep
01:12:54
Speaker
philosophical challenge of the mind. I'm going to piss off a lot of Martin Scorsese fans here but does it always have to be this very intellectual tour de force as it were? Obviously there's the argument there which would fill a whole other episode but at the end of the day for what they are, these Spider-Man films I do think holed up and I do think all three of them are very much a time capsule of the time they came from. As I said before you know that's
01:13:21
Speaker
apparent for the Toby McGuire ones, the Andrew Garfield ones.
Spider-Man's Emotional Journey
01:13:25
Speaker
And I have to admit, although it's nostalgia talking and obviously everybody was half expecting all three of the actors to come in and play the part, I really enjoyed it. After that, I was kind of waiting there like a impatient child. I was like, when are we going to get to the other Spider-Man?
01:13:43
Speaker
I wasn't sure when they were going to introduce them or how they were going to introduce them, but as you said, the scenes between Andrew Garfield and Toby McGuire, I did like them. I thought they were very fun and it allowed them to get some kind of closure. For example, Andrew Garfield's scene that his character became a lot more vengeful and
01:14:00
Speaker
hateful, which is kind of weird because you think he would have more of like a cynical attitude compared to when Zendaya throws bread at his face and he's like, I have to tingle just not for bread kind of thing. And I was like, okay, obviously he's more comedic, but. I did enjoy the use of tingle rather than like the spider sense. Yeah, that's quite funny. I think it was a fun callback.
01:14:21
Speaker
Yeah, I do like his redemption where he manages to save MJ. I really like that. I even got emotional like that. I thought, aw, it's weird because even though I watched the original Amazing Spider-Man, I wasn't as emotional, even though arguably, Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone were the strongest pair to get involved in the iterations. But
01:14:40
Speaker
You know, it wasn't that emotional when she died in the film and they was crying and everything, but in this film, it's like it kind of hits you that this is a character that's gone through us.
Costume Critiques and Preferences
01:14:50
Speaker
And considering that as the key tenet of Peter Parker, Peter Parker must suffer, I suppose. Just kind of wrapping up, I just want to ask, what are your thoughts on the various, he has quite a few, but the various suits, spy suits that Tom Holland Spiderman has. They're all right.
01:15:08
Speaker
Do you have a preference in not necessarily against Andrew Garfield and Tom Maguire's, but do you have a preference for which of them is your favourite? It kind of goes back to my point about when I was saying how the MCU is more fantastical in the sense that, you know, they've got things like by Infinity War, you've got nano technology and, you know, they just press a button and all of a sudden, oh, their body's covered and everything.
01:15:33
Speaker
I don't know, maybe I'm a sucker for the Superman with a tear in the shirt and there's the Superman logo underneath. I like the Iron Spider, I have to say. Don't get me wrong, it's not my favourite. If I had to choose between the three iterations, I would go Raimi all the time, but in terms of Tom Holland alone, I don't
01:15:53
Speaker
No, I feel as if most of the outfits are okay. I don't know. They're alright. There's none that really stand out. I like the black and red one. I didn't like the inside out one. I thought that was stupid. And no way home, you know, when he gets good in pain throwing over him so he turns his suit inside out, which
01:16:10
Speaker
whole host of questions there. That would probably compromise your suit even more, but that's beside the point.
Debate on Spider-Man's Body Count
01:16:15
Speaker
Going back to the Iron Spider thing, is it right to say that this iteration of Spider-Man probably has the highest body count compared to the other two? Does he? I can't think of… has he killed people?
01:16:26
Speaker
Yeah, because remember, we're not with these old bare hands, but remember in Infinity War where there's a joke in the homecoming where he's got a kill mode on his suit. Are you talking about the aliens like the Chitauri and that kind of thing? Yeah, which again, it's like, oh, technically it doesn't count because they're aliens, but if you really think about it... Yeah, it's the old Hollywood rule. If there are monsters, it doesn't count if you're killing them.
01:16:48
Speaker
Exactly, if his robots are aliens or things and phones, it's like, yeah, no, that's fine. But yeah, he's got the highest body count out of all three. Toby McGuire, I think, only has two technically. He's got Eddie Brock and Venom when he throws the pumpkin ball in between
01:17:05
Speaker
No, because, I mean, you can technically blame Toby for the death of a guy with a star tattoo on him. He does intimidate him into falling out that window, so I will blame him for that death. Let's bump it to three then. Andrew Garfield always has one, which of course is the death of Gwen Stacy. That's not his fault.
01:17:22
Speaker
How dare you? I had to say it. I'm sorry. I might as well. I'm going to get cancelled for the other things. I'm going all in, Andrew. I'm going all in. Yeah, no, he doesn't really have a body, unless you count in the Amazing Spider-Man 2 when he's joking around with the rhino instead of saving people as all the cars are flying. Yeah, I also thought that he may have been responsible for many deaths in that situation. But no, Tom Holland does interglot too much.
01:17:47
Speaker
Okay, well then just again wrapping up then, what are your final thoughts? Do you think that this trilogy is worth
Identity and Growth in the MCU
01:17:53
Speaker
watching? Do you think that it's a solid trilogy in both in Spider-Man and as an MCU trilogy? As an MCU trilogy, absolutely.
01:18:02
Speaker
I would say this is one of the more consistent iterations of Spider-Man. I would say that, again, the films are a lot more polished because obviously they've got that Marvel money coming their way, but they are really fun to look at. They have good actors in it. They have very interesting settings and things. I completely understand why some people don't like these iterations.
01:18:26
Speaker
I feel as if the reason they don't like these iterations is because they might not stand out the same compared to the other films, and that is something I will say that I do technically agree with. I feel as if for these films, although they're great, they're consistent, they're really well made, they are up there as some of the best Spider-Man films, I don't
01:18:46
Speaker
feel as if Spider-Man yet has his own identity. Because as some other people have pointed out, it feels as if because he's part of this bigger universe, he has to interact with other people like Doctor Strange and Iron Man and all of these people. And it makes sense in the universe, like I'm not saying he should have had his own independent adventure at that time, but what I will say is it almost feels as if
01:19:12
Speaker
He's not able to breathe on his own, like he's sandwiched in between other characters that are clearly better at what they do. You know, in Doctor Strange is very adept in the magical arts, you've got Iron Man who's very adept in technology and everything. And it makes sense for Peter at this stage in his life that he has to look at these other superheroes and he has to think, oh well, I would aspire to be like these characters someday, but I
01:19:38
Speaker
At the same time, I feel as if in terms of a Spider-Man, so if I'm looking at this solely as a Spider-Man series like Spider-Man films, I don't feel as strong at times. I feel as if it's light down in a lot of areas, which isn't obviously to detract from the overall experience. But the thing is, going into any Marvel movie, you have to have the booklet of
01:20:01
Speaker
what went on, what Disney Plus show's been going on, what films you missed. You could probably start from Homecoming, but you can watch Homecoming and then watch Far From Home. Don't get me wrong, you still can't technically, but you'd be thoroughly confused. One movie in Homecoming, you've got Iron Man standing there and then no way home. It's like,
01:20:23
Speaker
Oh, he's dead. I don't have to admit, here's a funny side story here, but I remember I was watching the trailer for Far From Home, and I always remember they had this big spoiler warning at the very beginning. They said, oh, just a heads up if you haven't seen Endgame, there's spoilers for this trailer. And I was like, ah, sure, there'll be a couple. But I'm sure, you know, it'll be later on in the trailer. So I let it run for two seconds. And literally the first scene of that trailer was, everywhere I go, I still see him. And it's just the big mural of Tony Stark.
01:20:53
Speaker
and I'm like, huh, so Iron Man's dead then. I was like, huh, interesting. But yeah, going back to my point, it's more of a Marvel issue than the Spider-Man issue, but I feel as if alone this isn't that great of a Spider-Man iteration, but as part of the MCU, it's fantastically done. But sorry, I'm going to flip it back on to you. What are your thoughts?
01:21:14
Speaker
Yeah, no, I can understand again, we've kind of covered a lot of that. I understand a lot of the criticisms for it, that it feels like he has kind of a crutch of the rest of the MCU he's leaning on. But I think that it deals with that very well. I don't think it overly exhausts the MCU. I think that the way they deal with kind of his responsibility of taking over the mantle of Iron Man is done well. I think that struggle initially and kind of comes into his own by the end of
01:21:40
Speaker
Far From Home, where you kind of have that very sweet scene where Happy kind of watches him become very Tony Stark, kind of developing his own spider suit at the back of the plane. And he puts on the ACDC, kind of a tearjerker moment of him being the new Tony Stark.
01:21:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's kind of it. I think the films deal with this growth of Peter Parker into Spider-Man in a much more gradual but effective way. And I'm very excited to see what comes next. I think there's
Future Spider-Man Content Teasers
01:22:06
Speaker
supposed to be there's supposed to be some sort of animated TV show, I think, which I believe takes place prior to Spider-Man Homecoming. I think we get to kind of see Peter Parker before then. And
01:22:16
Speaker
not rather than what happened post No Way Home. So I'm quite excited to see what happens there. Please let us know what you think. You can reach Chatsunami through Twitter, you can reach myself, GreenShield95 through Twitter, or you can also contact us through the pod page. Yeah, of course. If you want to get in contact and let us know your thoughts on the Tom Holland run, then you can contact us at podpage.com forward slash Chatsunami. So of course next week we are joined by a friend of the show, Craigie C., to dive into the
01:22:44
Speaker
weird and more... I was going to say wonderful, but no, it's just weird. The weird and weebie worlds. Exactly. The weird and weebie world of Japanese Spider-Man. And then the week after that, Andrew, you're of course returning to take on a very special Spider-Man trivia episode, which I think this might actually be the very first trivia episode you and I have done together. Yeah, I think you're right. I love trivia, so I'm very excited for that episode.
01:23:10
Speaker
I'm actually excited to see how well you do, because when I did it for Terminator Month, I was terrible. I was really bad. And I've surprisingly did well on the Sonic one, so we'll see how you get on when we come back. But until then, thank you all so, so much for listening to this episode. And as always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.